Kultcher, mate? Wot f***ing kultcher, Mate?
Alan Peyton-Smith
ngu...@netspace.net.au (James Nguyen) wrote:
>Sorry but I will be brutally honest. Australian Culture is an oxymoron.
>It's an illusion. There is no culture. Anyone who thinks otherwise are
>quite welcomed to list elements of this unique Australian culture to
>this thread.
>Being surrounded in this cultureless vacuum, this is perhaps why people
>like Mike Lucke have a severe problem and lack of appreciation and
>fascination with foreign and exotic cultures. He's cultureless. Not
>surprising since he and the "majority of Australians" he claims to
>represent show all the symptoms of quite a cultureless bunch.
So Australia is mostly a Anglo-Saxon Judeo-Christian cultureless
wasteland, is it, except for the kullerful kulcher what's been brung
ere from other places, _interesting_ places?
Just what is this "culture" that you claim is missing from this once
great country of ours? Should there be more of those kullerful Asian
types that run and dance and gyrate madly down the street carrying a
forty meter long papier mache dragon or some fool thing, while others
chant and bash on brass cymbal type things and other fools run along
behind them with paper lanterns or streamers or stuff?
Perhaps you regret the fact that we don't all get out our prayer mats
20 times a day and pray to Mecca?
Perhaps it's the well-attended public floggings and amputations that
happen in certain Middle eastern countries that are needed to brighten
up this here Land of the Bruces?
Yeah. Well, we Bruces and Franks and Norms would rather just sit at
home in the blue singlet and watch Neigh Bores on the telly, eh? Or
the footy on a satdy arvo. Clearly inferior, these Bruces and Norms.
Why can't we have kullerful kultchural things happening like wot they
got in forrin places? Not just watching the telly.
What can we do to alleviate this colourless culturelessness that's
blanketing this country like an enormous grey fog?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself."
-- Thomas Paine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon J. Elliott
> ngu...@netspace.net.au (James Nguyen) wrote:
>
>
> >Sorry but I will be brutally honest. Australian Culture is an oxymoron.
> >It's an illusion. There is no culture. Anyone who thinks otherwise are
> >quite welcomed to list elements of this unique Australian culture to
> >this thread.
>
> >Being surrounded in this cultureless vacuum, this is perhaps why people
> >like Mike Lucke have a severe problem and lack of appreciation and
> >fascination with foreign and exotic cultures. He's cultureless. Not
> >surprising since he and the "majority of Australians" he claims to
> >represent show all the symptoms of quite a cultureless bunch.
>
Since when does Australian lack culture? By whose standards? Culture is
the sum total of how the people live their lives, what they believe and
find important. The Europeans thought that the Chinese lacked culture
because they were all godless heathens who couldnt make good opera. The
Chinese thought that the Europeans lacked culture because they werent good
Taoists and didnt wash enough.
ITs in the eye of the beholder.
SE
Anton v. Rosmalen
In article <Pine.A32.3.94.961013...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu>,
"Simon J. Elliott" <sell...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> wrote:
>
>> ngu...@netspace.net.au (James Nguyen) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Sorry but I will be brutally honest. Australian Culture is an oxymoron.
>> >It's an illusion. There is no culture. Anyone who thinks otherwise are
>> >quite welcomed to list elements of this unique Australian culture to
>> >this thread.
Come on mate , you must be kidding, justlook at some of the extraordinary subjects
that are frequently contributed , just to namea few, and please notice that these
subjects creep up quite often in the subject header , and are read repeatedly
VEGEMITE
How to say i love
How to say F@#K you
They only one i have not seen but which i would to contribute to is
MEAT PIES
Alan Peyton-Smith
"Simon J. Elliott" <sell...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> wrote:
>> ngu...@netspace.net.au (James Nguyen) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Sorry but I will be brutally honest. Australian Culture is an oxymoron.
>> >It's an illusion. There is no culture. Anyone who thinks otherwise are
>> >quite welcomed to list elements of this unique Australian culture to
>> >this thread.
>>
>> >Being surrounded in this cultureless vacuum, this is perhaps why people
>> >like Mike Lucke have a severe problem and lack of appreciation and
>> >fascination with foreign and exotic cultures. He's cultureless. Not
>> >surprising since he and the "majority of Australians" he claims to
>> >represent show all the symptoms of quite a cultureless bunch.
>>
>Since when does Australian lack culture? By whose standards? Culture is
>the sum total of how the people live their lives, what they believe and
>find important. The Europeans thought that the Chinese lacked culture
>because they were all godless heathens who couldnt make good opera. The
>Chinese thought that the Europeans lacked culture because they werent good
>Taoists and didnt wash enough.
>ITs in the eye of the beholder.
>SE
You're completely correct, of course. I don't even know why I bothered
to respond to Nguyen's idiotic rave in the first place.
Peter Merel
"Simon J. Elliott" <sell...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> writes:
>> ngu...@netspace.net.au (James Nguyen) wrote:
>> >Sorry but I will be brutally honest. Australian Culture is an oxymoron.
>> >It's an illusion. There is no culture.
>Since when does Australian lack culture? By whose standards?
Ah, bullshit - Australia once had the start of a culture, but it was
stillborn. Nowadays, "Australian Culture" means a slavish imitation of
the worst parts of the American culture coupled with an aggressive
insecurity about Australia. Jingoism and Cringing - that's all there is
to Australian Culture these days.
Maybe this will change one day ... after the Indonesians invade ...
--
| mailto:pe...@zip.com.au | pgp DB 3A A3 D8 A7 6A BB 25 EF 2E F4 A4 8F 29 BB E2 |
| http://www.zip.com.au/~pete/ | Give away what you don't need. |
Peter Butler
In article <546ndl$b...@the-fly.zip.com.au>,
Peter Merel <pe...@zip.com.au> wrote:
>"Simon J. Elliott" <sell...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> writes:
>
>>> ngu...@netspace.net.au (James Nguyen) wrote:
>
>>> >Sorry but I will be brutally honest. Australian Culture is an oxymoron.
>>> >It's an illusion. There is no culture.
>
>>Since when does Australian lack culture? By whose standards?
>
>Ah, bullshit - Australia once had the start of a culture, but it was
>stillborn. Nowadays, "Australian Culture" means a slavish imitation of
>the worst parts of the American culture coupled with an aggressive
>insecurity about Australia. Jingoism and Cringing - that's all there is
>to Australian Culture these days.
>
>Maybe this will change one day ... after the Indonesians invade ...
>
is what I assume you mean when you say America, because I don't see an
oversupply of Chilean or Argentinian television) to see what the culture is
that we are a poor imitation of?
I think our culture is similar to AMerican culture but that doesn't mean it is
an imitation. We have similar histories, particularly the Southwest of the
US. Gold rushes in the last century causing sudden inrushes of Asian and
European migrants adding to a predominantly English speaking background with
high numbers of migrants from Ireland, England and Italy. We are both
relatively new countries relative to older cultures in Europe and Asia and
have adopted many parts of a number of cultures.
To put it in strictly musical terms, as music is a large part of what I define
as culture, I would strongly recommend watching the excellent documentary
series on the ABC at 9:30 on Friday nights (although it is well past half
finished already, I am sure it will be on again). THis show should be
compulsory viewing as part of the high school music syllabus. ROck and ROll
music is based on the music of Afro-AMerican former slaves from the south, but
it did not become largely popular until it was picked up and modified by
whites with a country and western influence and turned into rock and roll. It
really took off when it was borrowed and revamped by English working class
bands like the Beatles, who also added many other influences. It also
includes influences from Bach, Indian music, Irish folk, etc etc. It is a
world wide culture-rock has been world music longer than anyone has used that
expression. But because the largest market and many of the performers are
American, it is somehow perceived, incorrectly as American culture.
The same goes for many other things-hot dogs and hamburgers (and think about
the origin of that name, if not exactly the cuisine)are popular because they
can be made to taste good. Italian cuisine is largely based on tomatoes
(American) and noodles (chinese). Dutch cuisine is largely influenced by the
spices they brought back from Indonesia. Mexican cuisine is a mix of
traditional American Indian, French(I think) and SPanish. And so on. It is
all mixed up together and people who denounce multiculturalism as some sort of
New Age concept are simply not paying attention.
This country has produced a number of musicians who are internationally
recognised and is developing a new cuisine based on the combination of our
primarily European background and the new wave of Asian migrants and also
beginning to include indigenous foods as well.
Apart from all that, we generally have a culture of giving everyone a fair go,
of being able to work in offices with 20 or 30 different nationalities and all
ebing able to go to the pub for a beer on Friday lunchtime, with either a good
feed of Chinese, or a curry, or nachos, or even the good old pie, without
having a civil war about which is better.
If you think we do not have culture, the flaw is in you, not in this fantastic
country. If you don't like the culture here, you either lack imagination or
you haven't looked hard enough. Either way, if you don't like it here there
are planes leaving on a regular basis and plenty more people ready to take
your place who would much prefer our low key, non dogmatic culture to the
highly nationalistic cultural definitions which lead to civil (and
occasionally uncivil!) wars elsewhere.
Please let us non-cultured Aussies know what it is that you feel we are
missing, maybe we will add that to what we already enjoy.
Peter Butler
Wollongong.
Kym Horsell
In article <546t50$i...@wabbit.its.uow.edu.au>,
Peter Butler <p...@citr.itc.com.au> wrote:
>Ok, just for the sake of the argument, have you actually been to the US (which
>is what I assume you mean when you say America, because I don't see an
>oversupply of Chilean or Argentinian television) to see what the culture is
>that we are a poor imitation of?
While Australia is not yet a carbon copy of the USA, there are certaily
popular aspirations in that direction. And the influence on world
culture of "information" from the country that invented the advertising
industry is fairly unambigious.
One of my "little" gripes over the past 2 years is the almost universal
belief in the under-30s (and some others) that whatever works in the US
should be almost immediately instituted in Australia
(this move is aided by the apparently large number
of American executives of Aus-based multinationals that have been
so appointed because "Americans run businesses better").
Australia -- as has been argued by more than a few on these news groups for
at least that period to my knowledge -- **IS** a copy of America and hence the
idea of copying idea X from that sources is "obvious".
(I actually find it surprising to these days hear some over 30s -- who may or
may not be politicians, I'm not saying -- explicitly say "we don't want
to go down the American path [on this topic]").
In terms of popular culture Aus is starting to look like a cheap clone.
Everything that was "fresh" when I left the US a couple of years back is
starting to appear in Aus -- complete in every detail. From baseball hats,
bloomers, hr-long commercials on night-time TV, "ab" machines,
and moves to privatise this and that (simply because it's the "right thing to
do"), through down-size govt (because the "poor choose to be poor" and
obviously deserve what they get), and trickle down economics etc, etc, etc, etc.
>I think our culture is similar to AMerican culture but that doesn't mean it is
>an imitation. ...
>[historical similarities]
>To put it in strictly musical terms,
Music?!
How many local artists sing with fake American accents? (I actually
take note when someone sings with a more-or-less Aussie accent -- a much
shorter list). Now you might say this is to make marketing easier in
the US. Then why do pub bands that have never and will never record
do it?
And isn't Good ol' boy Country (& Western) style singing and line dancing
making a bit of an appearance in Aus these days?
Once upon a time people N or W of the Murray wore a variety of hats. Now ten
gallon and other US imports seem the go (along with fancy tooled leather boots
et al). All part of the rugged Aussie traditional C (&W) image, I guess.
I understand the local "version" of the Country Music Awards is only around
10 years old. Why do they bother with a local version, I ask myself.
Surely they can just watch the original on cable TV?
(Albeit some cable TV companies are discovering the idea works a little
differently in Australia than it did at "home").
>[something abourt American Rock 'n Roll]
>Apart from all that, we generally have a culture of giving everyone a fair go,
This may be unfortunately rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
In any case we also have a surprising (to me) sub culture of "we have a right to
carry a gun, watch out for the UN and the guvunmunt, etc, etc".
>[deletia].
>Please let us non-cultured Aussies know what it is that you feel we are
>missing, maybe we will add that to what we already enjoy.
Finally, take a dekko at things like the following. Admittedly
this COMES from an American source, but it isn't alone. ;-)
======
Voice of America.
Global Popular Culture
(reporter: Zlatica Hoke)
26 August 1996 Washington.
Modern technology has contributed to the worldwide
spread of American popular culture which is turning into
global popular culture, especially for younger
generations. Culture ministers in some countries see
globalization as a threat to their own cultural heritage
and are fighting against the popular trend. but, as
Zlatica Hoke reports, some say there is no reason to
panic [i.e. "lay back and enjoy it -- it's inevitible" says the
rapist].
The latest American blockbuster has just been released
in movie theaters around the nation.
"How do you erase someone's identity? How do you go
into the computer and erase the dental records, erase
the school records, the marital records, the birth
dates.......?"
Fans of Arnold Schwarzenegger in other countries are
eagerly awaiting the arrival of "The Eraser" on their
local screens. According to a recent comprehensive
world teen study [by the Brain Waves Group, a
New York based consulting organization specializing in
international trends], American movies,
television shows and music are more popular than ever.
The survey of more than twenty-five thousand
15-to-18-year old youths in 41 countries indicates that
most middle class kids all over the world share a global
popular culture which originates in the United States.
When the Iron Curtain and the Berlin Wall fell, the
flood of this global popular culture rushed into central
and Eastern Europe. Andrei Codrescu is a Romanian-born
poet and professor of english literature at the state
University of Louisiana in New Orleans. He says before
the fall of Communism, young people in these countries
had the choice of government sponsored culture or
underground literature and theater. Both of these were
promptly dropped with the arrival of the American-style
popular culture. Professor Codrescu says the local
intellectuals started to worry.
"The intellectuals in those countries are distressed
because it seems to them that before the fall of the
(Berlin) wall people had better tastes, i.e.-- they were
reading their books and watching their cultural efforts.
And now they find themselves marginalized by a flood of
products from the West. But the fact is that these
products are better made, they are more seductive and
they appeal to those people (in the former Soviet bloc)
for exactly the same reasons they appeal to us.
There is a lot of adrenalin in there, the stories
are very suspenseful. They are pretty empty (laughs),
there is not much to think about in some of them, but I
think that it's a sense of relief actually that people
feel in Eastern Europe after having had so much grim and
heavy thinking to do, or pretend to do, in the years
before the (Berlin) wall."
Andrei Codrescu recalls his own youth in Rumania when,
as he says, just the sight of Coca Cola and McDonald's
gave him a sense of freedom because they were symbols of
the world on the other side of the Iron Curtain. He
says he is not worried about the flood of American
cultural products because people will enjoy them until
they get their fill and will then look for something
different.
But long before it reached Eastern Europe, American
popular culture had invaded Western Europe and it is not
yet showing signs of subsiding. Last year, the French
Ministry of Culture honored American actress Sharon
Stone by making her a Knight of the Order of Arts and
Letters. Only a few years ago, the film "Jurassic Park"
set a record in France when it was released
simultaneously in 500 theaters. French movies have
not been able to compete. Like the French, many other
Europeans complain that their countries have become the
dumping ground for, as they call it, "cheap American
garbage." As a result, since 1989, the European Union
has required that at least fifty percent of their
regular television programming must be of European
origin [cf Australian content requirement in local
free-to-air TV].
France has tried to extend these quotas to
other areas, including new technologies such as
video-on-demand. Denis Delbourg [de-nee
del-boor], Cultural Councilor in the French Embassy in
New York, says his government is trying to protect the
French film industry from American competition.
"But if we cancelled everything (all the restrictions),
probably, you know the American productions would gain a
little more space on the screens in our theaters and the
whole national industry would be endangered. And then
we strongly feel that in the modern times, where images
are more important than written material, in the age of
communication - if we don't have the capacity to produce
our own images, we would lose the way to express
ourselves in the contemporary society and we cannot be
impoverished in that way. "
===
--
R. Kym Horsell
KHor...@EE.Latrobe.EDU.AU k...@CS.Binghamton.EDU
http://WWW.EE.LaTrobe.EDU.AU/~khorsell http://CS.Binghamton.EDU/~kym
Peter Merel
p...@citr.itc.com.au (Peter Butler) writes:
>>Nowadays, "Australian Culture" means a slavish imitation of
>>the worst parts of the American culture coupled with an aggressive
>>insecurity about Australia. Jingoism and Cringing - that's all there is
>>to Australian Culture these days.
>Ok, just for the sake of the argument, have you actually been to the US (which
>is what I assume you mean when you say America, because I don't see an
>oversupply of Chilean or Argentinian television) to see what the culture is
>that we are a poor imitation of?
Yes, I've been to the US 3 times, most recently a month ago. As to which
parts of the American culture are the worst, no, I wasn't suggesting that
Argentina or Chile fall into that category. Why, do you have something against
South America? Or perhaps you'd like to read what I wrote again before you
ride off on that high horse :-)
>I think our culture is similar to AMerican culture but that doesn't mean it is
>an imitation. We have similar histories, particularly the Southwest of the
>US. Gold rushes in the last century causing sudden inrushes of Asian and
>European migrants adding to a predominantly English speaking background with
>high numbers of migrants from Ireland, England and Italy. We are both
>relatively new countries relative to older cultures in Europe and Asia and
>have adopted many parts of a number of cultures.
All quite irrelevant everyday experiences. Get your nose out of your
history text and walk down the street, mate, what do you see? Baseball
caps. Basketball uniforms for American teams. American movies in all the
cinemas, american TV on all the stations, american slang in everyone's
mouth. There are slight differences in pronunciation, but that hardly
defines a culture.
>To put it in strictly musical terms, as music is a large part of what I define
>as culture, I would strongly recommend watching the excellent documentary
>series on the ABC at 9:30 on Friday nights (although it is well past half
>finished already, I am sure it will be on again). THis show should be
>compulsory viewing as part of the high school music syllabus. ROck and ROll
>music is based on the music of Afro-AMerican former slaves from the south, but
>it did not become largely popular until it was picked up and modified by
>whites with a country and western influence and turned into rock and roll.
I've been enjoying that show very much - amazing interviews. But come on
- what has this to do with the imaginary Australian culture? You're not
trying to tell me that we have, or have had, any significant musical
culture in this country that was not derived from US and UK ideas? What
are you smoking?
I should say that I believe there is a real *Aboriginal* culture in this
country. Some of the Aboriginal bands are distinctive - but their
range is so limited, and their market share so tiny, that they're hardly
significant to Australian culture in general.
>The same goes for many other things-hot dogs and hamburgers (and think about
>the origin of that name, if not exactly the cuisine)are popular because they
>can be made to taste good.
Even ignoring this rather astounding value judgement (processed meat?
UGH!) Australian cuisine is? Ripoffs of German beer. Ripoffs of English
pies and sausage rolls. And slavish imitations of Asian food. Original?
Yeah, right.
>This country has produced a number of musicians who are internationally
>recognised and is developing a new cuisine based on the combination of our
>primarily European background and the new wave of Asian migrants and also
>beginning to include indigenous foods as well.
Rubbish. Name a non-Aboriginal musician that is distinctively and
originally Australian. Or a non-Aboriginal graphic artist. We have had a
few artists that have made it big on the world stage ... but not by
doing anything but aping and/or knocking the Americans.
>Apart from all that, we generally have a culture of giving everyone a fair go,
>of being able to work in offices with 20 or 30 different nationalities and all
>ebing able to go to the pub for a beer on Friday lunchtime, with either a good
>feed of Chinese, or a curry, or nachos, or even the good old pie, without
>having a civil war about which is better.
Civil wars? What century are you living in, mate? If you want to reach
back into the 19th century for examples of racial intolerance, you have
to deal with the Tasmanian genocide - every last Tasmanian Aborigine
enslaved and slaughtered - none left. But in the 20th century, almost
any American city has a mix of more different cultures than we have here.
You think Australians invented multiculturalism? Come off it.
As to lunch, have you ever eaten Ethiopian? How about Afghani?
Salvadoran? Not here. We don't have them here. I've eaten all of those
foods, and liked them, in the US - as well as the Indian, Chinese,
Mexican and European we have here. Australia is not some kind of
multicultural reservation. We didn't invent multiculturalism and it's
not any kind of defining trait.
>If you think we do not have culture, the flaw is in you, not in this fantastic
>country. If you don't like the culture here, you either lack imagination or
>you haven't looked hard enough.
You haven't provided a *SINGLE* example of uniquely Australian popular
culture. Not one. If you think they're so ubiquitous, name one - and not
one that's a rehash of something I can find in America. Cricket? Never
heard of the West Indies? Aussie Rules? Never heard of Hurling? Barbeques?
Guess you don't know the etymology of the word ...
>Either way, if you don't like it here there
>are planes leaving on a regular basis
My green card is on the way right now mate. Oh, there are some lovely things
about living in oz, and I have friends and family here, but no, it's no great
shakes as countries go, and no, I won't regret leaving what passes here as
"culture". The beaches, the reef, the desert, yeah, I'll miss those. But
the people? Don't make me laugh.
>and plenty more people ready to take your place who would much prefer our low
>key, non dogmatic culture to the
<Giggle> Low Key? Never turned on the TV, have you? Every bloody ad on
the box screams "Australia, Australia, Australia, we love you, Amen!"
Non dogmatic? Ever tried to tell an Australian a joke with the
Australians as the butt? Remember to duck!
>highly nationalistic cultural definitions which lead to civil (and
>occasionally uncivil!) wars elsewhere.
Ah, yes, according to the myopic Australian worldview every place else is
either poverty-stricken, over-crowded, or in the midst of a war. Well then
Pete, it seems you've got me - there is something unique about the Australian
cultural bias after all :-)
>Please let us non-cultured Aussies know what it is that you feel we are
>missing, maybe we will add that to what we already enjoy.
Mate, I am a fucking Australian, born and bred. But my eyes are open and I've
travelled, and I'm here to tell you: there's no significant Australian culture.
Once upon a time it looked like there might be, but TV has fixed that. The
rest, as I said, is just Jingoism and Cringing.
Simon J. Elliott
On 18 Oct 1996, Peter Merel wrote:
> "Simon J. Elliott" <sell...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> writes:
> >> ngu...@netspace.net.au (James Nguyen) wrote:
> >> >Sorry but I will be brutally honest. Australian Culture is an oxymoron.
> >> >It's an illusion. There is no culture.
> >Since when does Australian lack culture? By whose standards?
>
> Ah, bullshit - Australia once had the start of a culture, but it was
> stillborn. Nowadays, "Australian Culture" means a slavish imitation of
> the worst parts of the American culture coupled with an aggressive
> insecurity about Australia. Jingoism and Cringing - that's all there is
> to Australian Culture these days.
>
> Maybe this will change one day ... after the Indonesians invade ...
Coming from Australia, and now living in the USA, I can say that Australia
has a distinct dialect, cuisine, lifestyle and worldview that I dont find
anywhere else. I am NOT like the Americans, and share more with, say, the
English even tho thats not a lot.
Even your response "Ah, bullshit" is classic Australian, as is the cynical
dry response at the end.
SE
Peter Merel
"Simon J. Elliott" <sell...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> writes:
>Even your response "Ah, bullshit" is classic Australian, as is the cynical
>dry response at the end.
The Australian outlook and manner is distinctive, but the "classic
Australian" culture is now almost totally replaced with obsessions with
ostentation and triumphalism. Australian culture, the sort of noble
thing you saw once in people like Dennis, Lindsay and Gibbs, isn't
taught in schools, heard on the radio, or seen on TV. A few of us
remember it:
"Fellers of Australier,
Blokes an' coves an' coots,
Shift yer fuckin' carcases,
Move yer fuckin' boots.
Girt yer fuckin' loins up,
Get yer fuckin' gun,
Set the fuckin' enermy
An' watch the fuckers run.
Get a fuckin' move on,
Have some fuckin' sense.
Learn the fuckin' art of
Self de-fuckin'-fence.
Joy is fuckin' fleetin',
Life is fuckin' short.
Wot's the use uv wastin' it
All on fuckin' sport?
Hitch yer fuckin' tip-dray
To a fuckin' star.
Let yer fuckin' watchword be
`Austali-fuckin'-ar!'"
Yes, once we had fuckin' culture; but it's stoney-fuckin'-cold,
killed by Kieran fuckin' Perkins An' his Olympic fuckin' gold,
an' Cathy fuckin' Freeman scoffin' Vita-fuckin'-Brits. If I weren't
senti-fuckin'-mental I'd 'ave the fuckin' shits.
Stanislaw
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Simon J. Elliott wrote:
> On 18 Oct 1996, Peter Merel wrote:
>
> > "Simon J. Elliott" <sell...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> writes:
> > >> ngu...@netspace.net.au (James Nguyen) wrote:
> > >> >Sorry but I will be brutally honest. Australian Culture is an oxymoron.
> > >> >It's an illusion. There is no culture.
> > >Since when does Australian lack culture? By whose standards?
> >
> > Ah, bullshit - Australia once had the start of a culture, but it was
> > stillborn. Nowadays, "Australian Culture" means a slavish imitation of
> > the worst parts of the American culture coupled with an aggressive
> > insecurity about Australia. Jingoism and Cringing - that's all there is
> > to Australian Culture these days.
> >
> > Maybe this will change one day ... after the Indonesians invade ...
>
> Coming from Australia, and now living in the USA, I can say that Australia
> has a distinct dialect, cuisine, lifestyle and worldview that I dont find
> anywhere else. I am NOT like the Americans, and share more with, say, the
> English even tho thats not a lot.
>
> Even your response "Ah, bullshit" is classic Australian, as is the cynical
> dry response at the end.
>
> SE
>
>
>
Thats nice. Two colonials debating something they have never experienced
in their lives. And getting excited about it.
How cultural.
Stan.
Peter Butler
In article <5478in$t...@the-fly.zip.com.au>,
Peter Merel <pe...@zip.com.au> wrote:
}p...@citr.itc.com.au (Peter Butler) writes:
}
}>>Nowadays, "Australian Culture" means a slavish imitation of
}>>the worst parts of the American culture coupled with an aggressive
}>>insecurity about Australia. Jingoism and Cringing - that's all there is
}>>to Australian Culture these days.
}
}>Ok, just for the sake of the argument, have you actually been to the US
(which
}>is what I assume you mean when you say America, because I don't see an
}>oversupply of Chilean or Argentinian television) to see what the culture is
}>that we are a poor imitation of?
}
}Yes, I've been to the US 3 times, most recently a month ago. As to which
}parts of the American culture are the worst, no, I wasn't suggesting that
}Argentina or Chile fall into that category. Why, do you have something
against
}South America? Or perhaps you'd like to read what I wrote again before you
}ride off on that high horse :-)
Well, ditto. All I was trying to point out is that there is more to America
than just the US. I don't have anything against Argentina or CHile and can't
really see how you interpreted my comments that way, but then I think your
whole post is self contradictory and difficult to make sense of.
}
}>I think our culture is similar to AMerican culture but that doesn't mean it
is
}>an imitation. We have similar histories, particularly the Southwest of the
}>US. Gold rushes in the last century causing sudden inrushes of Asian and
}>European migrants adding to a predominantly English speaking background with
}>high numbers of migrants from Ireland, England and Italy. We are both
}>relatively new countries relative to older cultures in Europe and Asia and
}>have adopted many parts of a number of cultures.
}
}All quite irrelevant everyday experiences. Get your nose out of your
}history text and walk down the street, mate, what do you see? Baseball
}caps. Basketball uniforms for American teams. American movies in all the
}cinemas, american TV on all the stations, american slang in everyone's
}mouth. There are slight differences in pronunciation, but that hardly
}defines a culture.
SO your main concern is what 18 year old boys are wearing? I remember in the
70s, a lot of girls were wearing Rollers Strollers-crappy tartan covered
outfits a la Bay City Rollers. Later in the 70s, and to soem extent now, a lot
of young people dress like ENglish punks. Reliable sources tell me that in the
60s, plastic Beatle wigs were the go. Young people will always experiment
with image and fashion, and often by imitating what they see on TV, I don't
think this is a major cause for concern about the future of our culture
though.
}
}>To put it in strictly musical terms, as music is a large part of what I
define
}>as culture, I would strongly recommend watching the excellent documentary
}>series on the ABC at 9:30 on Friday nights (although it is well past half
}>finished already, I am sure it will be on again). THis show should be
}>compulsory viewing as part of the high school music syllabus. ROck and ROll
}>music is based on the music of Afro-AMerican former slaves from the south,
but
}>it did not become largely popular until it was picked up and modified by
}>whites with a country and western influence and turned into rock and roll.
}
}I've been enjoying that show very much - amazing interviews. But come on
}- what has this to do with the imaginary Australian culture? You're not
}trying to tell me that we have, or have had, any significant musical
}culture in this country that was not derived from US and UK ideas? What
}are you smoking?
WHat I was trying to point out is that things that are commonly considered to
be "American culture" such as ROck and ROll are actually far more universal
and include elements of European classical music and influences from every
corner of the globe, which explains the wide appeal of rock and roll-it is
world music, not only American music.
}
}I should say that I believe there is a real *Aboriginal* culture in this
}country. Some of the Aboriginal bands are distinctive - but their
}range is so limited, and their market share so tiny, that they're hardly
}significant to Australian culture in general.
}
}>The same goes for many other things-hot dogs and hamburgers (and think about
}>the origin of that name, if not exactly the cuisine)are popular because they
}>can be made to taste good.
}
}Even ignoring this rather astounding value judgement (processed meat?
}UGH!) Australian cuisine is? Ripoffs of German beer. Ripoffs of English
}pies and sausage rolls. And slavish imitations of Asian food. Original?
}Yeah, right.
You really should get out more.
}
}>This country has produced a number of musicians who are internationally
}>recognised and is developing a new cuisine based on the combination of our
}>primarily European background and the new wave of Asian migrants and also
}>beginning to include indigenous foods as well.
}
}Rubbish. Name a non-Aboriginal musician that is distinctively and
}originally Australian. Or a non-Aboriginal graphic artist. We have had a
}few artists that have made it big on the world stage ... but not by
}doing anything but aping and/or knocking the Americans.
I cannot understand why you want me to exclude Aboriginal australian bands
when your argument seems to hinge on the fact that all "Australian" culture is
a poor imitation of European or AMerican culture. You then try to exclude
ABoriginal bands who have more right to consider themselves Australian culture
than the rest of us. SO I will ignore that because it is just silly.
Ok, here goes for starters:
John Williamson
The Bushwackers
Redgum
Paul Kelly
Midnight Oil
Men at Work
Goanna
Yothu Yindi
Archie Roach
The Warumpi Band
aThe Angels
Cold Chisel
Johnny O'Keefe (one for the mums and dads!)
Billy Thorpe
Mental As Anything
Rose Tattoo
Ted Egan
John Dengate (no, not the guy on Burkes Backyard from NPWS, another one)
Slim Dusty (you asked for it!)
Skyhooks
DAve Warner's From the Suburbs ("Just a suburban boy")
Gondwanaland
And hundreds of suburban and country "bush bands" who are playing good
Australian bush music in pubs and other venues all over the place including
old stuff by Paterson and Lawson (remember them?) and newer stuff by modern
singer/songwriters like Eric Bogle, Jim Haynes, the aforementioned John
WIlliamson and many others. One of our local bush bands even did a tour of
Ireland and Germany last year.
That enough? Next question please...
}
}>Apart from all that, we generally have a culture of giving everyone a fair
go,
}>of being able to work in offices with 20 or 30 different nationalities and
all
}>ebing able to go to the pub for a beer on Friday lunchtime, with either a
good
}>feed of Chinese, or a curry, or nachos, or even the good old pie, without
}>having a civil war about which is better.
}
}Civil wars? What century are you living in, mate? If you want to reach
}back into the 19th century for examples of racial intolerance, you have
}to deal with the Tasmanian genocide - every last Tasmanian Aborigine
}enslaved and slaughtered - none left. But in the 20th century, almost
}any American city has a mix of more different cultures than we have here.
}You think Australians invented multiculturalism? Come off it.
No, I just think that America, like Australia, ENgland and many many countries
are multicutltural, that was one of the points I tried to make-"American
culture" is a mix of ethnic origins, mostly European ones, just like ours is.
They have been there longer as a modern industrialised society so they are
more assimilated-our culture is less clearly defined because we have only been
an industrialised Europeanised country for 200 years and soemthing like half
the population is either first or second generation migrants. It takes a
while to assimilate and form a national identity. I know we have racist
intolerance and don't really want to get into it here.
}
}As to lunch, have you ever eaten Ethiopian? How about Afghani?
}Salvadoran? Not here. We don't have them here. I've eaten all of those
}foods, and liked them, in the US - as well as the Indian, Chinese,
}Mexican and European we have here. Australia is not some kind of
}multicultural reservation. We didn't invent multiculturalism and it's
}not any kind of defining trait.
No, I haven't eaten Ethiopian, and sadly I suspect most Ethiopians haven't
either. SO what? The point is, we are multicultural, even though we didn't
invent it. SO is ENgland, even before the wave of global immigration this
century-the Poms are a mongrel breed of French and German, mostly, with a bit
of Celt and Viking for flavour. I don't think there is a single culture in
the world which is so defining that it cannot be shown to be derived from
another culture. That is my point-we are not quite distinct from European
cultures because so many of us were born there.
}
}>If you think we do not have culture, the flaw is in you, not in this
fantastic
}>country. If you don't like the culture here, you either lack imagination or
}>you haven't looked hard enough.
}
}You haven't provided a *SINGLE* example of uniquely Australian popular
}culture. Not one. If you think they're so ubiquitous, name one - and not
}one that's a rehash of something I can find in America. Cricket? Never
}heard of the West Indies? Aussie Rules? Never heard of Hurling? Barbeques?
}Guess you don't know the etymology of the word ...
Since when is cricket American? No wonder you think we are a poor imitation
of America, you think they invented everything and you are wrong. Name one
thing that is uniquely any culture that isn't a copy of something else
someone was doing elsewhere.
}
}>Either way, if you don't like it here there
}>are planes leaving on a regular basis
}
}My green card is on the way right now mate. Oh, there are some lovely things
}about living in oz, and I have friends and family here, but no, it's no great
}shakes as countries go, and no, I won't regret leaving what passes here as
}"culture". The beaches, the reef, the desert, yeah, I'll miss those. But
}the people? Don't make me laugh.
And we won't miss you. I find it hard to understand why someone who is so
worried about AMerican culture would want to go and live there-isn't there a
contradiction here somewhere?
}
}>and plenty more people ready to take your place who would much prefer our
low
}>key, non dogmatic culture to the
}
}<Giggle> Low Key? Never turned on the TV, have you? Every bloody ad on
}the box screams "Australia, Australia, Australia, we love you, Amen!"
}Non dogmatic? Ever tried to tell an Australian a joke with the
}Australians as the butt? Remember to duck!
}
ANd you are going to go and live in America to get away from jingoism and
overblown patriotism? Y'all have a good time now, y'hear.
}>highly nationalistic cultural definitions which lead to civil (and
}>occasionally uncivil!) wars elsewhere.
}
}Ah, yes, according to the myopic Australian worldview every place else is
}either poverty-stricken, over-crowded, or in the midst of a war. Well then
}Pete, it seems you've got me - there is something unique about the Australian
}cultural bias after all :-)
No, not everywhere, but plenty of places are like that, sadly. ANd many of
their people would be happy to come here where you are relatively unlikely to
find a tank in your front garden or troops in the street.
}
}>Please let us non-cultured Aussies know what it is that you feel we are
}>missing, maybe we will add that to what we already enjoy.
}
}Mate, I am a fucking Australian, born and bred. But my eyes are open and I've
}travelled, and I'm here to tell you: there's no significant Australian
culture.
}Once upon a time it looked like there might be, but TV has fixed that. The
}rest, as I said, is just Jingoism and Cringing.
I think you are the one with the cringe. I am a migrant from England and I am
now bloody proud to be an Australian citizen and would rather live here than
anywhere else-and I have been to America too and I prefer our form of social
justice to the every man for himself attitude of the American economy which
leaves people beggin on the street in San Francisco in a state that is in the
top 10 economies of the world even without the rest of the US.
As for TV, about half of what I watch is Australian and about half is ENglish.
NOt much American stuff worth watching really. I hope you enjoy having 57
channels of it instead of just 3.
But try avoiding the American shows while you still have a chance-watch some
Australian shows like:
Janus/Phoenix if they show it again. Real Australian culture, not Old SYdney
Town and Ned Kelly but Australians actung like Aussies in major cities in the
late 20th century act.
Anything which has Andrew Denton or Elle MacFeast in it.
Club Buggery with Roy and HG.
Watch a Grand final for either the AFL or teh ARL and listen to Roy and HG
call it on JJJ
Hey Hey Its Saturday. NOt as good as it once was but pretty Australian in
content most of the time.
Good News Week on ABC TV tonight at 8:00 (see it before its axed!)
And I think Neighbours and Home and Away get higher ratings in the UK than
they do here. ANd CLive James does ok in ENgland for a boy from Kogarah. ROlf
Harris still seems pretty Australian too, despite about 30 years living in
England he still played a mean didge solo on his chart topping rendition of
Stairway to Heaven.
As for us being a poor copy of AMerican culture, as far as movies go I think
in recent times the opposite is true. COnsider these parallels
Waterworld <> Mad Max
100 times the budget, 1/100 the credibility.
TO WOng Foo <> Priscilla,Queen of the desert
SOme crap I don't know the name of but it is in the video shops <> Babe
And don't forget how well Crocodile Dundee I and II did in America, or
Strictly Ballroom, Muriels Wedding(Thirdmost profitable film in the world in
11995), all the Mad Max (Road Warrior) movies, Babe, Man from Snowy RIver,
Gallipoli, Young Einstein, etc,etc.
And next time you watch an "American" movie, read the credits. CHances are it
will be produced by Peter Weir (Dead Poets SOciety), Bruce Beresford (Driving
Miss Daisy), George Miller, Philip Noyce (Clear and Present Danger), Jocelyn
Moorhouse (How to Make an American Quilt), or star Judy Davis, Mel GIbson
(yes, I know he was born in America but he was trained at NIDA and cut his
teeeth in Aussie flicks like Mad Max and Gallipoli), Nicole Kidman, or some
other Aussie. And read the rest of the credits too-they normally read like a
guest list for the United NAtions Christmas Party. (source of all this
thrilling movie stuff-EZY Entertainment, Oct 96 from your local Aussie video
shop, mate).ANd remember Schindlers List, the SPielberg blockbuster? Who
wrote the book-Tom Keneally, mate.
Watch the Academy Awards sometime-we picked up quite a few nominations alst
year and a few awards. We do pretty well at Cannes as well. FIve Australian
directors had their films nominated for the most recent festival (Rolf de Heer
for The Quiet Room, Shirley Barrett for Love Serenade-which won the
prestigious Camera D'Or, RIchard Frankland for No Wayto Forget, Jonathon
Ogilvie for This Film is a Dog and Micheal Liu for Film Noir)
And if its Australian culture you want, check out some of the ones which are
more Australian and therefore don't do as well in trhe US. LIke Death in
Brunswick, Bliss, Puberty Blues, Stone, The Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith, and so
on.
We also don't do badly in the literature stakes-didn't Patrick White win a
Nobel Prize for Literature?
We have a number of Symphony orchestras and composers (I recently had the
pleasure of going to a recital here by a great cellist whose name eludes me
playing a selection of pieces by modern Australian composers, notably Peter
Sculthorpe), opera companies, dnace companies(Notably Bangarra but also
others-its not really an area I follow closely personally).
If you want world calss musicians, you can't go past James Morrison, Tommy
Emmanuel, John Williams.
Singers? Joan Sutherland and Nellie Melba spring to mind.
NO, as far as I am concerned, we have plenty of culture-I suspect it is you
that hasn't got any f**king culture, mate. Wake up and smell the orses, it
doesn't have to be DadnDave to be Australian, and it doesn't have to be
internationally accepted to be good, although it often is if you would take
your cultural cringe coloured glasses off and realise that the rest of the
world appreaciates Australian culture in terms of film, music and other arts
even if you don't. Maybe as far as food goes, nothing distinct has emerged
yet but believe me , its coming.
See y'all later, dude
Peter BUtler
Peter Merel
p...@citr.itc.com.au (Peter Butler) writes (and writes pretty damned well):
>Well, ditto. All I was trying to point out is that there is more to America
>than just the US. I don't have anything against Argentina or CHile and can't
> really see how you interpreted my comments that way, but then I think your
>whole post is self contradictory and difficult to make sense of.
Um, I said "oz culture apes the worst of American culture". You replied
"american culture is more than just US culture". And I said "huh? do you
mean that the worst of American culture is not US culture, or what?" The
only alternative interpretation of your response that I can think of is
that it was simply non-sequitur.
>SO your main concern is what 18 year old boys are wearing? I remember in the
>70s, a lot of girls were wearing Rollers Strollers-crappy tartan covered
>outfits a la Bay City Rollers. Later in the 70s, [...]
My point was simply that oz culture is short on originality and long on
imitation. If you prefer to say that it is a world-culture that is being
imitated, rather than a us-centric culture, I have no problem with that.
>WHat I was trying to point out is that things that are commonly considered to
>be "American culture" such as ROck and ROll are actually far more universal
>and include elements of European classical music and influences from every
>corner of the globe, which explains the wide appeal of rock and roll-it is
>world music, not only American music.
I agree with you here, at least concerning filiation of the material.
However this filiation is not significant to the issue of whether or not
Australia imitates US culture; what is significant is that Australia
imitates whatever material it receives from the US broadcasting
industry, for then the question, "what Australian culture?" turns on
whether there remains any significant Australian culture *apart* from
this foreign industry.
Certainly, before the advent of the television, there was a uniquely
Australian culture. Anyone can recognise the strength and vibrancy of
the old books and paintings, and recognise that here was something
valuable. But for culture to live there must be a community of discourse
within which it will live; when TV arrived Australians began to abandon
their old communities and to restrict taking their leisure with their
countrymen. They were stopped talking to one another and started
listening to whoever represented them on the box. The Australian
community of discourse began to evaporate.
We still had some kind of culture because the programs on the box were
Australian icons, and our TV made its money mostly by treating concerns
relevant to Australians. But it was a poor substitute, a degeneration
from a multitude of opinions and cultural assumptions to a single stream
of thought, and not a bright stream - more a gutter for the simplest
expressions, the ones that could be enjoyed best by the young and the
apathetic.
Once US TV became accessible here the paucity of uniquely Australian
content left the Australian culture, such as it had become, with no
place to go. Now we still have artists and original thinkers, but
they inhabit cliques and fragments, and most commonly the principle
that defines these fragments is plainly a reaction for or against some
notion notion popularised by US media.
With the rise of the net, thank goodness, a new community of discourse
is opening up here, and it is both stronger and more sophisticated than
the one that existed before TV. But this new community, even more than
television, is a venue for global culture. The net has no distinctively
Australian flavour to it, and as it advances we can expect that any
vestiges of the old Australian character, even the accent, will
disappear.
>I cannot understand why you want me to exclude Aboriginal australian bands
>when your argument seems to hinge on the fact that all "Australian" culture is
>a poor imitation of European or AMerican culture. You then try to exclude
>ABoriginal bands who have more right to consider themselves Australian culture
>than the rest of us.
If the presence of Aboriginal themes is your criterion, then I certainly
have no argument - this is indeed a living and a unique culture. However
I should say that Aboriginal culture has practically no representation
in the popular Australian media, Aboriginal language has little or no
presence in the popular Australian vernacular, and Aboriginal concepts
and arts do not appear on curricula in most Australian schools. All that
most Australians know of Aboriginal culture is stereotypical images and
the odd Americanised Yothu Yindi/Christine Anu song. So it is fair to
say that Aboriginal culture is no more representative of *Australian*
culture than are the imported ethnicities.
>That is my point-we are not quite distinct from European
>cultures because so many of us were born there.
I think we agree on this much - it's the conclusions we draw that are
different.
>Since when is cricket American?
You were the one just lamenting the Australian tendency to think of
"American" as "US". The Windies had cricket long before us, and they are
certainly from the Americas. Cricket is a global sport, if you haven't
noticed, not distinctively Australian in the slightest.
>of America, you think they invented everything and you are wrong. Name one
>thing that is uniquely any culture that isn't a copy of something else
>someone was doing elsewhere.
I don't think the Americans invented everything, and never claimed that
they did. I do think that the US broadcast industry dominates Australian
media, and so whatever they popularise we follow. As to naming things
unique to cultures, of course you can filiate everything back to the
first caveman clunking the first rocks together, if you please. But in
this you only serve to prove my original point, which was simply that
"Australian culture" is not distinct from the culture popularised by the
US broadcasters.
>I find it hard to understand why someone who is so
>worried about AMerican culture would want to go and live there-isn't there a
>contradiction here somewhere?
I regret the loss of what was once a proud and sturdy ethnicity - who
wouldn't? That doesn't mean I despise what has replaced it.
>And you are going to go and live in America to get away from jingoism and
>overblown patriotism? Y'all have a good time now, y'hear.
Oh, no, nationalism is ugly no matter where you find it, but I don't
expect to escape it no matter where I go. I'm going to America because
it seems that I can be better paid than I am in Sydney to live in a nicer
environment than I am in Sydney. If I could be paid US rates to live and
work in, say, Byron Bay, you can rest assured I'd do that instead.
>No, not everywhere, but plenty of places are like that, sadly. ANd many of
>their people would be happy to come here where you are relatively unlikely to
>find a tank in your front garden or troops in the street.
Certainly! Imho, for many people, Australia is a much nicer place to
live than most countries. But for all people and than all countries? No.
>I think you are the one with the cringe. I am a migrant from England and I am
>now bloody proud to be an Australian citizen and would rather live here than
>anywhere else-and I have been to America too and I prefer our form of social
>justice to the every man for himself attitude of the American economy which
>leaves people beggin on the street in San Francisco in a state that is in the
>top 10 economies of the world even without the rest of the US.
I quite agree - the US badly mismanages poor people, both local and
foreign. All I can do, as a technologist and materially privileged
person, is try to come up with ways to change that - see
http://www.zip.com.au/~pete/ss.html for one idea along these lines. But
that doesn't seem to imply much about the validity of Australian culture ...
> NOt much American stuff worth watching really. I hope you enjoy having 57
>channels of it instead of just 3.
TV? Hate it, avoid it when I can. Don't care if there's 3, 57 or thousands of
channels.
>Janus/Phoenix if they show it again.
Gawd, that's Australian culture, is it? Poor ripoff of The Bill and Hill Street
Blues, isn't it? You'll be trumpetting Medevac next.
>Anything which has Andrew Denton or Elle MacFeast in it.
Woody Allen and Joan Rivers ...
>Club Buggery with Roy and HG.
Smothers Brothers ...
>Watch a Grand final for either the AFL or teh ARL and listen to Roy and HG
>call it on JJJ
Sports humour is nothing new either.
>Hey Hey Its Saturday. NOt as good as it once was but pretty Australian in
>content most of the time.
Oh my god. If you really think HHIS is content, much less Australian content,
then I give up on you.
>NO, as far as I am concerned, we have plenty of culture-I suspect it is you
>that hasn't got any f**king culture, mate.
Ah, and when you can't make your point, flame on. Why am I unsurprised?
Jim Gunson
pete%zip.com.au (Peter Merel) wrote:
(snip)
> Mate, I am a fucking Australian, born and bred. But my eyes are open
> and I've travelled, and I'm here to tell you: there's no significant
> Australian culture. Once upon a time it looked like there might be,
> but TV has fixed that. The rest, as I said, is just Jingoism and
> Cringing.
This topic has always fascinated me when it periodically surfaces in
s.c.a.
You could almost regard it as part of our cultural baggage, the need
to assert or deny that there is a "significant Australian culture".
All countries have a culture. If you want a "significant culture"
you have to go and live in China or USA or Italy, etc. If you live
in countries like Australia, NZ, Canada, Singapore, Taiwan, Belgium,
etc, you won't have a significant culture because it is too similar
to some other bigger country's culture.
You get the picture ?
I do however agree with the "Jingoism and Cringing", this really shits
me about Australian TV and Radio.
It is done for those status-seekers in Australia who want us to have
a classy culture, and they are damn well gonna ram it down
everybodys' throats.
Jim Gunson
Ozzie
gun...@ocean.mit.edu (Jim Gunson) wrote:
!pete%zip.com.au (Peter Merel) wrote:
!(snip)
!> Mate, I am a fucking Australian, born and bred. But my eyes are
open
!> and I've travelled, and I'm here to tell you: there's no
significant
!> Australian culture. Once upon a time it looked like there might be,
!> but TV has fixed that. The rest, as I said, is just Jingoism and
!> Cringing.
!This topic has always fascinated me when it periodically surfaces in
!s.c.a.
!You could almost regard it as part of our cultural baggage, the need
!to assert or deny that there is a "significant Australian culture".
!All countries have a culture. If you want a "significant culture"
!you have to go and live in China or USA or Italy, etc. If you live
!in countries like Australia, NZ, Canada, Singapore, Taiwan, Belgium,
!etc, you won't have a significant culture because it is too similar
!to some other bigger country's culture.
!You get the picture ?
!I do however agree with the "Jingoism and Cringing", this really
shits
!me about Australian TV and Radio.
!It is done for those status-seekers in Australia who want us to have
!a classy culture, and they are damn well gonna ram it down
!everybodys' throats.
!Jim Gunson
Some pretty good discussions on this thread, but basically, I reckon
the bottom line is, if you don't love Australia, or even any country
you live in, then Fuck off to somepalce you will be proud to call home
and stop whinging about it to us who love it! Just MHO!
Steve Osborne (Ozzie)
X
X X
x
X
Beneath the Southern Cross
I stand, Can of VB in my hand!
Peter Butler
In article <54q6ls$i...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>,
}
}This topic has always fascinated me when it periodically surfaces in
}You could almost regard it as part of our cultural baggage, the need
}
}
}
The quality of culture should not be judged by the quality of the media-do you
judge English culture solely on the basis of the rabid Fleet Street tabloid
press?
Of course we have a culture, the whole idea that we don't is like saying we
don't have a language. Our culture, like every culture on this world, is
influenced in some small way by elements of a number of other cultures.
American culture is a similar amalgam of various European cultures blended
with the transported African Americans, the indigenous Americans and varying
amounts of Asians depending what state you are in. English culture is a blend
of French and German with the indigenous English populations and other waves
of immigration such as the Celts, the Vikings and the Romans ("What have the
bloody Romans done for us anyway, Brian?"). And so on-and that is how it
should be. Would people prefer it if we adopted laws like the French where
shop owners can be fined for using English/American words where French words
are available-if we did the opposite, a lot of restaurants would have to get
new menus published to get all that French muck off the menu!
Australia has a rich and diverse culture to reflect the rich and diverse
origins of its people. I do not have any desire to live in a monoculture
where anything foreign is mistrusted, that way lies not only wars and
opression of minorities but also a far less interesting country to live in.
Just because there is a lot of foreign culture here doesn't mean we have lost
our original culture, we have just added to it.
And for the sake of adding another idea to the discussion, according to
Saturday's Herald, the Aboriginal worship of the Rainbow Serpent as teh
bringer of life has been found to date back in an unbroken tradition of around
6000 years. This makes it the oldest religion in the world, 3 times as old as
Christianity and significantly (I can't remember the numbers) older than
Judaism, Moslem and Buddhism. SO not only do we have a culture, we have the
oldest culture in teh world, and quite possibly the longest lasting. People
thought the Aborigines were primitive because they didn't have cars or ships
or cities but they have lasted here for 40000 years quite happily. It reminds
me of part of DOuglas Adams' Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series "The
humans thought they were smarter than the dolphins because the humans had cars
and computers and digital watches and all the dolphins did was play around in
the oceans all day. The dolphins thought they were smarter than teh humans
for precisely the same reason". Like I said when I was first silly enough to
follow this thread, whether or not you think we have a culture depends largely
on your definition of culture. By any criterion I can think of we not only
have a culture, we have a lively, diverse, evolving culture, not one which
feels it has to define its parameters precisely in the name of national honour
so we can be distinguished from other races. Who cares if people don't know
the difference between us and Kiwis, we know the difference (not that there
are many really and I won't be drawn into discussing them) and that is what
matters.
At the end of the day we are all human beings who all do different things in
our own way. Culture is only the average trend of a large group, not a set of
rules all the individuals have to follow. That is why there are Greek
Australians and Italian Australians and Lebanese Australians as well as Poms
and Indigenous Australians. And in a few more generations, it well gradually
get harder to tell the difference, just like it has in the US where a lot of
the migration happened earlier. The original culture which people are worried
about losing through dilution by migration is basically only Pommy culture
anyway, why not add a few more ingredients and make something really
interesting?
Peter Butler
Peter Butler
Peter Butler
}Some pretty good discussions on this thread, but basically, I reckon
}the bottom line is, if you don't love Australia, or even any country
}you live in, then Fuck off to somepalce you will be proud to call home
}and stop whinging about it to us who love it! Just MHO!
}Steve Osborne (Ozzie)
Hear Hear!
Nobody makes anybody live here, if you don't like it, find somewhere you do
like, if you do like it, make yourself at home!
Peter Butler
Peter Butler
In article <54pkfv$a...@the-fly.zip.com.au>,
Peter Merel <pe...@zip.com.au> wrote:
}p...@citr.itc.com.au (Peter Butler) writes (and writes pretty damned well):
}
}>SO your main concern is what 18 year old boys are wearing? I remember in
the
}>70s, a lot of girls were wearing Rollers Strollers-crappy tartan covered
}>outfits a la Bay City Rollers. Later in the 70s, [...]
}
}My point was simply that oz culture is short on originality and long on
}imitation. If you prefer to say that it is a world-culture that is being
}imitated, rather than a us-centric culture, I have no problem with that.
}
It is not necessarily simply being imitated, it is being brought as "cultural
baggage" by the immigrant population. A lot of Oz culture is original, which
is why the Yanks love our movies-we make some damned good films here, largely
because we don't use the American method of making films to a recipe. Thats
why we manage to come up with stuff like Priscilla and Mad Max which teh Yanks
then imitate-it is them imitating us as much as it is us imitating them.
Listen to some of the work of Peter Sculthorpe, or Midnight Oil, or any of a
number of Australian bands and musicians. We do produce original and
interesting music here, maybe if you watched something other than MTV, you
might see some of it. Get out to the pubs and clubs and listen to some good
Aussie bands, instead of just believing whwt Kerry and Rupert want to tell you
is going on.
}>WHat I was trying to point out is that things that are commonly considered
to
}>be "American culture" such as ROck and ROll are actually far more universal
}>and include elements of European classical music and influences from every
}>corner of the globe, which explains the wide appeal of rock and roll-it is
}>world music, not only American music.
}
}I agree with you here, at least concerning filiation of the material.
}However this filiation is not significant to the issue of whether or not
}Australia imitates US culture; what is significant is that Australia
}imitates whatever material it receives from the US broadcasting
}industry, for then the question, "what Australian culture?" turns on
}whether there remains any significant Australian culture *apart* from
}this foreign industry.
Not true. I posted a list last week of a number of distinctly Australian
groups who are in no way an imitation of American culture, like Redgum, the
Bushwackers, John Williamson and Midnight Oil. What about all of them? The
rpoblem is, you don't seem to have really gone looking for our culture
anywhere except the TV. And it is a two way street-Americans are buying
didgeridoos and learning to play them-isn't that Australian culture which
predates any of the Johnny come latelies that you think we are imitation.
Ther is hardly any sound more Australian than a well played didg-check out
Charlie McMahon and GOndwanaland, or some of Redgums stuff-the combination of
a didgeridoo and Hugh MacDonald's violin playing was unbelievable-and very
Australian. Next time you go to the record shop, try looking somewhere other
than the Top 40 rack, you never know, you might learn something.
}
}Certainly, before the advent of the television, there was a uniquely
}Australian culture. Anyone can recognise the strength and vibrancy of
}the old books and paintings, and recognise that here was something
}valuable. But for culture to live there must be a community of discourse
}within which it will live; when TV arrived Australians began to abandon
}their old communities and to restrict taking their leisure with their
}countrymen. They were stopped talking to one another and started
}listening to whoever represented them on the box. The Australian
}community of discourse began to evaporate.
}
What about Brett Whitely and Ken Done and Tim Winton and Colleen McCullogh and
Clive James and Barry Humpries (currently doing very well with his Dame Edna
show in Berlin-in German)? Modern Australian books and Art are in pretty good
shape, I think. We are not the only nation which has changed because TV came
along, but we have certainly not lost our entire culture because of it. Try
watching the ABC and SBS instead of the commercial crap-you may be pleasantly
surprised.
}We still had some kind of culture because the programs on the box were
}Australian icons, and our TV made its money mostly by treating concerns
}relevant to Australians. But it was a poor substitute, a degeneration
}from a multitude of opinions and cultural assumptions to a single stream
}of thought, and not a bright stream - more a gutter for the simplest
}expressions, the ones that could be enjoyed best by the young and the
}apathetic.
There is a simple answer here-if you don't like it don't watch it. Go
somewhere and watch an Australian play or musical or live band or something.
It is all out there, honest.
}
}Once US TV became accessible here the paucity of uniquely Australian
}content left the Australian culture, such as it had become, with no
}place to go. Now we still have artists and original thinkers, but
}they inhabit cliques and fragments, and most commonly the principle
}that defines these fragments is plainly a reaction for or against some
}notion notion popularised by US media.
You have a real problem with Yanks don't you. I hardly watch any American TV,
I watch a few Australian programs and a few Pommy ones and I don't feel
culturally deprived.
}
}With the rise of the net, thank goodness, a new community of discourse
}is opening up here, and it is both stronger and more sophisticated than
}the one that existed before TV. But this new community, even more than
}television, is a venue for global culture. The net has no distinctively
}Australian flavour to it, and as it advances we can expect that any
}vestiges of the old Australian character, even the accent, will
}disappear.
Rubbish. How distinctively Australian do you expect the net to be-the Yanks
invented it for gods sake.
}
}>I cannot understand why you want me to exclude Aboriginal australian bands
}>when your argument seems to hinge on the fact that all "Australian" culture
is
}>a poor imitation of European or AMerican culture. You then try to exclude
}>ABoriginal bands who have more right to consider themselves Australian
culture
}>than the rest of us.
}
}If the presence of Aboriginal themes is your criterion, then I certainly
}have no argument - this is indeed a living and a unique culture. However
}I should say that Aboriginal culture has practically no representation
}in the popular Australian media, Aboriginal language has little or no
}presence in the popular Australian vernacular, and Aboriginal concepts
}and arts do not appear on curricula in most Australian schools. All that
}most Australians know of Aboriginal culture is stereotypical images and
}the odd Americanised Yothu Yindi/Christine Anu song. So it is fair to
}say that Aboriginal culture is no more representative of *Australian*
}culture than are the imported ethnicities.
Do you want us to all be the same? Bands like Midnight Oil and Redgum worked
with Aboriginal musicians to combine the European traditions and the modern
generic rock music with traditional Aboriginal sounds. Paul Kelly worked with
Archie Roach to produce and write some of his stuff I think-and they both
gained something from the collaboration. Australian culture is all of theese
things and more. Do you only accept Australian culture as people singing
Banjo PAterson and Henry Lawson songs? What about the people like all the
ones I have mentioned and probably hundreds more who are working with
everything this country has to offer. Next March, drive down to Jamberoo (
about 30k south of Wollongong) for the Folk Festival. Last year I saw
everything from traditional Australian bush bands, Scottish, Irish, Indian,
Italian, Arabian, English and South American and who knows what else. And it
all sounded great. ANd it was mostly Australians playing it, even if their
name was Abdul or Mario instead of Bruce or Kevin (which is, by the way, the
most popular name chosen for new born baby boys in France). Apart from the
normal fare of mainly UK Celtic music and Lawson/Paterson stuff, modern
Australian bush bands are equally likely to play mazurkas or Maditteranean
music, maybe even a bit of bluegrass, but not too much, it upsets the locals
and upsets the cows.
}
}>That is my point-we are not quite distinct from European
}>cultures because so many of us were born there.
}
}I think we agree on this much - it's the conclusions we draw that are
}different.
}
}>Since when is cricket American?
}
}You were the one just lamenting the Australian tendency to think of
}"American" as "US". The Windies had cricket long before us, and they are
}certainly from the Americas. Cricket is a global sport, if you haven't
}noticed, not distinctively Australian in the slightest.
No, not even vaguely Australian, you silly boy, it has probably been played on
the same ground every Saturday afternoon in parts of England since before
Captain Cook was born. He probably played it as a boy, being a good
Yorkshireman.
}
}>of America, you think they invented everything and you are wrong. Name one
}>thing that is uniquely any culture that isn't a copy of something else
}>someone was doing elsewhere.
}
}I don't think the Americans invented everything, and never claimed that
}they did. I do think that the US broadcast industry dominates Australian
}media, and so whatever they popularise we follow. As to naming things
}unique to cultures, of course you can filiate everything back to the
}first caveman clunking the first rocks together, if you please. But in
}this you only serve to prove my original point, which was simply that
}"Australian culture" is not distinct from the culture popularised by the
}US broadcasters.
}
I think it is. If you can't see the difference between Australian shows like
Denton and Roy and HG and Good NEws Week and American shows like DOnahue, you
really are not paying attention. Hello, is anyone home? I really think you
should get your TV looked at, it only seems to work on 3 channels out of 5.
Try ABC and SBS. Or are you one of the silly buggers who signed up for cable
from Rupert? In which case, it all makes sense but you will get no sympathy
from me!
}>I find it hard to understand why someone who is so
}>worried about AMerican culture would want to go and live there-isn't there a
}>contradiction here somewhere?
}
}I regret the loss of what was once a proud and sturdy ethnicity - who
}wouldn't? That doesn't mean I despise what has replaced it.
}
What has been lost? If anything, our traditions of Lawson and Paterson are
stronger than ever and we are teaching our kids more about our Australian
history instead of European history (ignorant redneck Prime Ministers
notwithstanding). We have more art galleries showing work by current
Australians, more Australian books on the shelves.
}>And you are going to go and live in America to get away from jingoism and
}>overblown patriotism? Y'all have a good time now, y'hear.
}
}Oh, no, nationalism is ugly no matter where you find it, but I don't
}expect to escape it no matter where I go. I'm going to America because
}it seems that I can be better paid than I am in Sydney to live in a nicer
}environment than I am in Sydney. If I could be paid US rates to live and
}work in, say, Byron Bay, you can rest assured I'd do that instead.
}
Personally living in Byron Bay would be worth more to me than American rates,
but I guess we all have different priorities. I hope you are very happy there
and I am sure that when you come for a visit after a few years immersed in
true American culture, you will know when you are back in the land of Oz.
}>No, not everywhere, but plenty of places are like that, sadly. ANd many of
}>their people would be happy to come here where you are relatively unlikely
to
}>find a tank in your front garden or troops in the street.
}
}Certainly! Imho, for many people, Australia is a much nicer place to
}live than most countries. But for all people and than all countries? No.
}
it is the best country in the world for me, I love it and I am proud to live
here but I am not obsessive about it really, if you don't like it, thats your
business.
}>I think you are the one with the cringe. I am a migrant from England and I
am
}>now bloody proud to be an Australian citizen and would rather live here than
}>anywhere else-and I have been to America too and I prefer our form of social
}>justice to the every man for himself attitude of the American economy which
}>leaves people beggin on the street in San Francisco in a state that is in
the
}>top 10 economies of the world even without the rest of the US.
}
}I quite agree - the US badly mismanages poor people, both local and
}foreign. All I can do, as a technologist and materially privileged
}person, is try to come up with ways to change that - see
}http://www.zip.com.au/~pete/ss.html for one idea along these lines. But
}that doesn't seem to imply much about the validity of Australian culture ...
}
}> NOt much American stuff worth watching really. I hope you enjoy having 57
}>channels of it instead of just 3.
}
}TV? Hate it, avoid it when I can. Don't care if there's 3, 57 or thousands of
}channels.
}
}>Janus/Phoenix if they show it again.
}
}Gawd, that's Australian culture, is it? Poor ripoff of The Bill and Hill
Street
}Blues, isn't it? You'll be trumpetting Medevac next.
}
No.
And no. What's Medevac?
}>Anything which has Andrew Denton or Elle MacFeast in it.
}
}Woody Allen and Joan Rivers ...
You have to be joking.
}
}>Club Buggery with Roy and HG.
}
}Smothers Brothers ...
Who?
}
}>Watch a Grand final for either the AFL or teh ARL and listen to Roy and HG
}>call it on JJJ
}
}Sports humour is nothing new either.
}
Sports humour? Have you ever seen Club Buggery?
}>Hey Hey Its Saturday. NOt as good as it once was but pretty Australian in
}>content most of the time.
}
}Oh my god. If you really think HHIS is content, much less Australian content,
}then I give up on you.
OK, I'll concede this one.
}>NO, as far as I am concerned, we have plenty of culture-I suspect it is you
}>that hasn't got any f**king culture, mate.
}
}Ah, and when you can't make your point, flame on. Why am I unsurprised?
}
As far as I am concerned I have made my point, if you can't see whats under
you nose, who am I to rub your nose in it? I would ask one question though,
just for the record, as I can't figure it out from the email address, what
part of this big brown land do you live in? I am in Wollongong the brave so I
guess I am more exposed to multiculturalism than most as we have one of the
msot ethnically diverse populations in the world-and most of us are good
"Aussie wogs".
Have a nice day, y'all
Peter
Kym Horsell
In article <54q6ls$i...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>,
Jim Gunson <gun...@ocean.mit.edu> wrote:
>All countries have a culture. If you want a "significant culture"
>you have to go and live in China or USA or Italy, etc. If you live
>in countries like Australia, NZ, Canada, Singapore, Taiwan, Belgium,
>etc, you won't have a significant culture because it is too similar
>to some other bigger country's culture.
"SIgnificant" can be understood in several senses. In one sense
of "bigger" or "influential" then Australia obviously never applied.
In another sense of "distinguishable" or "different" then it barely
applies.
At least the Sydney Harbour Bridge and kangaroos are (still) different.
(I was amused that Lachlan Murdoch was in Melbourne the other day saying
in a memorial address that
Australia should develop a cultural identity ready for the Sydney Olympics).
Kym Horsell
In article <551qgo$4...@wabbit.its.uow.edu.au>,
Peter Butler <p...@citr.itc.com.au> wrote:
>I posted a list last week of a number of distinctly Australian
>groups who are in no way an imitation of American culture, like Redgum, the
>Bushwackers, John Williamson and Midnight Oil. What about all of them?
All past tense?
Peter Merel
khor...@ee.latrobe.edu.au (Kym Horsell) writes:
>In article <551qgo$4...@wabbit.its.uow.edu.au>,
>Peter Butler <p...@citr.itc.com.au> wrote:
>>I posted a list last week of a number of distinctly Australian
>>groups who are in no way an imitation of American culture, like Redgum, the
>>Bushwackers, John Williamson and Midnight Oil. What about all of them?
>All past tense?
No, not all. I thought about continuing my line here, but Peter makes
some good points; there are distinctive aspects to Australian culture.
I'd only continue on to say that most if not all of the folks he cites
are stagnant, imitative and/or reactive, and he'd ask me to knock down
further examples, and we could go on and on like that for a while - but
I think we've both had our say and I'm content.