Singapore Airline Girls
Ed Hall
: Is it just me or do other people find those Singapore Airline ads
: somewhat objectionable?
I don't. I find them highly objectionable. :-)
: . . . I suppose it is a
: western male fantasy; to have a crew of submissive young Asian women at
: your beck and call while you sit in your first class seat and luxuriate.
Oh, come on, now, it's no doubt an Eastern male fantasy, too!
: It seems that all the other airlines dropped this kind of demeaning
: image of their airlines and flight attendents long ago. I guess with
: Asian women this image will (sadly) always be acceptable...
Well, I haven't noticed the concept of women's equality making nearly as
deep inroads in Asia as it has in Europe, Canada, and the US. It would
be hard to imagine a US airline making such a blatant ploy these days.
They'd get buried in a ton of protest mail and pickets.
Let's put the blame where it belongs. I'm sure US airlines would use
a mini-skirted blonde "fly girl" in their ads if they thought they could
get away with it. (I'm old enough to remember when they could.) Would
it be any less objectionable if Singapore Airlines used blondes? (I
doubt if there are many blonde Singaporeans.)
In brief, I think you picked the wrong target. It isn't a matter of
greasy white males slobbering over Asian women (a subject I know always
gets the blood pumpin' in this newsgroup). It's exploitation of a
common male sexual fantasy which crosses racial boundries.
-Ed Hall
edh...@rand.org
Ed Hall
: . . .
: Where I disagree is that, as Ed says, if a US airline tried that shit,
: they'd be boycotted and the object of protests and tons of bad publicity.
: However, where are the people who would protest if United would do this?
: They don't _care_ ... why is this? Because the feminist movement in this
: country is largely a white, upper-middle class thing. For the most part,
: they don't really sense that this is a problem, because they don't relate.
: Naomi Wolf and Susan Faludi are probably too busy writing articles for
: "Ms." magazine and doing book tours for their white, upper-middle class
: fans to address something like this.
While I agree that academic feminism has developed into its own rather
insular world (this seems to happen with lots of social movements once
academia latches on to them) the women who would protest United in your
hypothetical case likely would say "I'm not a 'feminist,' but I don't
think women should be treated this way." So much of what was "libber's
nonesense" a generation ago is now the accepted view, even among many
who now call themselves "conservative." The average woman in the US will
relegate feminist theory to the lunatic fringe, but still demand
a lot more respect than earlier generations.
To be more cynical, it can also boil down to the bottom line; a higher
percentage of domestic business travelers are women these days, and
jiggle ads are a good way to lose their business. My impression is that
overseas business travelers, especially to Asia, are much more
predominantly male.
My own guess is that both of these factors are operative.
-Ed Hall
edh...@rand.org
Andy Shaw
Is it just me or do other people find those Singapore Airline ads
women smiling obediantely and sometimes wearing 'traditional' garb. The
latest commercials show them in a pastoral mountain setting seemingly miles
from an airplane, airport or crowded Singapore.
At the risk of sounding overtly "P.C." (a term usurped by such
'open-minded' conservatives like Bill Buckley) these ads really seem to
reinforce the traditional western stereotype of the Asian female. Here's
your 'Singapore Girl' (I seem to recall they actually used this term a
while back!) ready to fulfill all the Asian female fantasies you grew up
with. For the mere price of a plane ticket you get to be "served" by your
own personal Suzy Wong, Geisha Girl, Miss Saigan, etc. I suppose it is a
Awestern male fantasy; to have a crew of submissive young Asian women at
your beck and call while you sit in your first class seat and luxuriate.
This has got to have one of the longest cycle times of a topic I've seen
yet. I brought up this subject about four years ago, and there was a
little flame war about it back then. There were a lot of guys saying they
*liked* to have submissive, cheesecake, T&A, stewardesses, and that the US
airlines were a bunch of PC wussies -- you know, the usual stuff from
disaffected Rush-worshiping types.
Basically, you are 100% right.
It seems that all the other airlines dropped this kind of demeaning
image of their airlines and flight attendents long ago. I guess with Asian
women this image will (sadly) always be acceptable...
I agree with Ed Hall (and I think he may have been one of the people who
actually participated in the discussion the last time around, 4 years ago):
the major problem is sexism in general. Certainly, the problem does not
reside solely with white American males. Singapore Airlines has been
pimping its stewardesses for a while, and you can be assured they are not
only pimping them to white men.
Where I disagree is that, as Ed says, if a US airline tried that shit,
they'd be boycotted and the object of protests and tons of bad publicity.
However, where are the people who would protest if United would do this?
They don't _care_ ... why is this? Because the feminist movement in this
country is largely a white, upper-middle class thing. For the most part,
they don't really sense that this is a problem, because they don't relate.
Naomi Wolf and Susan Faludi are probably too busy writing articles for
"Ms." magazine and doing book tours for their white, upper-middle class
fans to address something like this.
I got some mail back then from some Singaporean students who had friends
and relatives who were "Singapore girls", and they pretty much confirmed
the situation. Singapore Airlines hires them when they're young and
pretty, and then moves them to other jobs when they turn 26 or 27 or
something.
I'm sure that Singapore Airlines is a well-run operation, and I understand
that standards are different there than they are here in the US. However,
it is disturbing that there is clearly a different standard at play for
white women and Asian women, and that standard does not reside solely
within the white male mind, but also within the white female mind.
Singapore Airlines ads in the US should abide with American standards.
-Andy
Brian L. Robinson
|>
|> Is it just me or do other people find those Singapore Airline ads somewhat objectionable? These are the ones for showing pretty young Asian women smiling obediantely and sometimes wearing 'traditional' garb. The latest commercials show them in a pastora|> l mountain setting seemingly miles from an airplane, airport or crowded Singapore.
|>
|> At the risk of sounding overtly "P.C." (a term usurped by such 'open-minded' conservatives like Bill Buckley) these ads really seem to reinforce the traditional western stereotype of the Asian female. Here's your 'Singapore Girl' (I seem to recall they a|> ctually used this term a while back!) ready to fulfill all the Asian female fantasies you grew up with. For the mere price of a plane ticket you get to be "served" by your own personal Suzy Wong, Geisha Girl, Miss Saigan, etc. I suppose it is a we
|> male fantasy; to have a crew of submissive young Asian women at your beck and call while you sit in your first class seat and luxuriate.
|>
|> It seems that all the other airlines dropped this kind of demeaning image of their airlines and flight attendents long ago. I guess with Asian women this image will (sadly) always be acceptable...
At least that seems to be the case in Asia. I'm not sure how true that is in
America. I've never seen ads for Singapore Airlines here. Where did you see
these ads?
--
Brian L. Robinson "Glad tidings abound on the left side of the highway,
but I must drive on the right.
Full-Time Asiaphile
Part-Time Neurotic Bloody traffic regulations!" -Joseph C. Lindsay
Daniel Hung-Yi Yang
>>Second, the commercial depicts the highlights of the country which the
>>airline flies to.
>oh, then that explains why the "Singapore girls" make up the bulk of the
>footage.
There are plenty of commercials, like the one from America West Airlines,
in which stewardesses make up the bulk of the commercial. That still doesn't
prove that the airline is necessarily sexist.
Furthermore, you took my sentence out of context. The original poster had
asked why the commercial had shots of scenery. It was merely a response
to that. Perhaps you should read through the entire post instead of just
selecting the portions you can manipulate then mutating it. If you didn't
understand the wording, you can just ask.
>Well, this one uses sex to sell it's 'product' pure and simple. "What a
>wonderful way to fly - Singapore girl". What are you supposed to be
>flying?? An airline or a girl? The fact that they're using an Asian
>woman and are therefore getting away with it only adds insult to injury IMHO.
Well this should be a debate about the exploitation of women then, not
the exploitation of Asian women. Their asianess has nothing to do with
it. It would be just as wrong if they had used a caucasian woman. Right?
Daniel Yang
Bryan Wu
>In article <2l7n66$g...@osprey.ftn.us-ny.citicorp.com>,
>GCMS generic-lcp <gc...@fig.citib.com> wrote:
>>Is it just me or do other people find those Singapore Airline ads
>> somewhat objectionable? These are the ones for showing pretty young
>> Asian women smiling obediantely and sometimes wearing 'traditional'
>> seemingly miles from an airplane, airport or crowded Singapore.
>
>Second, the commercial depicts the highlights of the country which the
>airline flies to.
oh, then that explains why the "Singapore girls" make up the bulk of the
footage.
>Anyone with half a brain would know that the airplane
>flies into a crowded airport.
>Third, if it did depict an unattractive picture of an airplane, airport, or
>crowded Singapore, it probably wouldn't sell.
Singapore is a beautiful country, and it's not all that crowded.
>If you use your common sense, you'd know that ALL advertisers hedge a little
>on the products they sell, and use smiling people in their advertisments.
Well, this one uses sex to sell it's 'product' pure and simple. "What a
wonderful way to fly - Singapore girl". What are you supposed to be
flying?? An airline or a girl? The fact that they're using an Asian
woman and are therefore getting away with it only adds insult to injury IMHO.
>The only reason why you attributed these stereotypes to the Singapore
>girl is because you hold them yourself. You saw an Asian woman on TV that
>merely smiled, and you said to yourself, "she is Asian, All Asians are
>submissive, therefore the Singapore girl must be submissive as well."
"What a wonderful way to fly - Northwestern Girl"
Bryan
GCMS generic-lcp
Well, I'm glad my posting generated some interest since that was my
intention. I apologize if my references to "western male fantasies"
offended anyone. I think my use of this term to describe the cinematic and
theatrical genres I mentioned (Suzy Wong, geisha girl, Miss Saigan) was
appropriate. Speaking for myself and the asian males I know these are not
*our* fantasies. Asian women are our mothers, sisters, cousins, etc. We
draw our conclusions of Asian and Asian-American women from actual people
we know and respect and not from Hollywood's distorted point of view.
While I appreciated the Asian and non-Asian American male feedback, I
really wanted to hear what women thought about the Singapore Air commercial
and my posting. My significant other happens to be an extremely strong
Asian-American woman trying to make it in corporate America. She paid a
good deal of money to see Miss Saigan and was deeply disturbed by the
portrayal of the Vietnamese lead character. The fallout from such media
images is that she has to deal with people that watch this "entertainment"
which forms their opinions about Asian women.
"... The only reason why you attributed these stereotypes to the Singapore
girl is because you hold them yourself. ..."
I think I have already properly addressed this accusation. As for feedback
stating that "Your delerious."; I won't bother answering this. ;-)
I probably shouldn't have put that reference to "P.C. and Bill Buckley"
into my posting. It was admittedly somewhat irrelevent and probably
aroused the ire of our right-wing netters. Hopefully it didn't cloud the
issue.
"... Singapore is a beautiful country and it's not all that crowded"
I've really got to go check it out for myself, I guess. However, I will do
my best NOT to fly Singapore Airlines.
Peace*,
--Phillip Liu
* I know it's Steve Wei's line but it seemed appropriate ;-).
Bryan Wu
>In article <2le2se$i...@panix.com>, Bryan Wu <b...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>Second, the commercial depicts the highlights of the country which the
>>>airline flies to.
>>oh, then that explains why the "Singapore girls" make up the bulk of the
>>footage.
>
>There are plenty of commercials, like the one from America West Airlines,
>in which stewardesses make up the bulk of the commercial. That still doesn't
>prove that the airline is necessarily sexist.
>
>Furthermore, you took my sentence out of context. The original poster had
>asked why the commercial had shots of scenery. It was merely a response
>to that. Perhaps you should read through the entire post instead of just
>selecting the portions you can manipulate then mutating it. If you didn't
>understand the wording, you can just ask.
I think I understood the wording - correct me if I'm wrong - but the
footage of the scenery is montaged with the "Singapore girl" throughout
the commercial, with the shots of her made in a fuzzy "playboy" style - I
feel that since having a United Airlines stewardess walking around in a
negligee (sp?) browsing through the sights of New York City would be
about equivalent. My point is, and their tagline I think bears me out,
that Singapore airlines is trying more to say "fly the girl" rather than
"fly the airline". "What a wonderful way to fly, singapore airlines" or
"what a wonderful way to fly, singapore girl". The latter is their real
slogan.
>>Well, this one uses sex to sell it's 'product' pure and simple. "What a
>>wonderful way to fly - Singapore girl". What are you supposed to be
>>flying?? An airline or a girl? The fact that they're using an Asian
>>woman and are therefore getting away with it only adds insult to injury IMHO.
>
>Well this should be a debate about the exploitation of women then, not
>the exploitation of Asian women. Their asianess has nothing to do with
>it. It would be just as wrong if they had used a caucasian woman. Right?
Right. My point was that it wouldn't happen with a white woman because
people would go nuts in protest - but people don't particualarly notice when
it's an Asian woman.
I find it disturbing that in the Airline industry, the one exotifying
Asian women and basically selling their product with sex is in fact an
Asian airline.
Bryan
Terry Cheung
->In <2lfju1$i...@agate.berkeley.edu> dan...@violet.berkeley.edu (Daniel Hung-Yi Yang) writes:
->
->>>Well, this one uses sex to sell it's 'product' pure and simple. "What a
->>>wonderful way to fly - Singapore girl". What are you supposed to be
->>>flying?? An airline or a girl? The fact that they're using an Asian
->>>woman and are therefore getting away with it only adds insult to injury IMHO.
->>
->>Well this should be a debate about the exploitation of women then, not
->>the exploitation of Asian women. Their asianess has nothing to do with
->>it. It would be just as wrong if they had used a caucasian woman. Right?
->
->Right. My point was that it wouldn't happen with a white woman because
->people would go nuts in protest - but people don't particualarly notice when
->it's an Asian woman.
What about those auto commercials (especially the sports car ones) that
have white women in them?
On a separate note, how many more customers do you netters think the
airline get with those ads or with their selection of stewardesses.
I know some guys fly with the airline because they think the airline has
younger and better looking stewardesses. So the airline probably
does get more profit out of this practice.
--
Terry Cheung
tch...@ocfmail.ocf.llnl.gov
hassan monu alam
a dainty person of your fantasies, or someone who is strong enough
to force open a door and push you to safety. That is the only
time I will ever need the service of the cabin crew.
As for the submissive types, you should have seen one of SIA
stewardesses cussing in the galley at business class passengers
just after and before she was in the cabin with a smile :-).
Hassan
Daniel Hung-Yi Yang
GCMS generic-lcp <gc...@fig.citib.com> wrote:
>While I appreciated the Asian and non-Asian American male feedback, I
>really wanted to hear what women thought about the Singapore Air commercial
>and my posting. My significant other happens to be an extremely strong
>Asian-American woman trying to make it in corporate America. She paid a
>good deal of money to see Miss Saigan and was deeply disturbed by the
>portrayal of the Vietnamese lead character. The fallout from such media
>images is that she has to deal with people that watch this "entertainment"
>which forms their opinions about Asian women.
Do people really form opinions of certain gender types or females based
upon their experiences in the theatre or entertainment? This effect might
be true if people are not exposed to females or Asians, but Asian -
American females are commonplace in society.
Let me put it this way. If you saw an african american woman on a
commercial for Zimbabwe Airlines acting or even saying that she's
submissive, would you believe that all black women are submissive? I
certainly would not.
I haven't seen Miss Saigon yet, so I'll defer my opinion of whether your
SO is hypersensitive to a later date.
Daniel Yang
Daniel Hung-Yi Yang
>I find it disturbing that in the Airline industry, the one exotifying
>Asian women and basically selling their product with sex is in fact an
>Asian airline.
Why is that so surprising?
Asian women are not exactly a scarcity in Singapore.
One of the ways Singapore Airlines can remain competitive is if it
"exotifies Asian women."
Daniel Yang
william.au
Let's face it, sex sells. The goal of an ad is to sell the product.
I think the Singapore Airlines ad does a pretty good job at that because
it differentiates the airline from other (e.g. United).
Bill
Andy Shaw
There's a word for this: pimping.
Now I certainly do think that Singapore Airlines should take care of
business, but I also think that they could do so without pimping their
stewardesses. They could run on time, have fast, efficient, courteous
service, compete on price, fly newer airplanes, etc. etc.
And from what I know about Singapore Airlines, they do all those things.
But I'm not comfortable with the fact that they do pimp their stewardesses
-- I don't think it's surprising, anymore than I am surprised by any
company resorting to unsavory, unethical, and discriminatory action in the
pursuit of what they believe is profit. But I'm not going to sit here and
say it's OK, as you seem to be doing.
-Andy
Daniel Hung-Yi Yang
Andy Shaw <sh...@corvette.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <2li9ls$l...@agate.berkeley.edu> dan...@violet.berkeley.edu (Daniel Hung-Yi Yang) writes:
>Now I certainly do think that Singapore Airlines should take care of
>business, but I also think that they could do so without pimping their
>stewardesses. They could run on time, have fast, efficient, courteous
>service, compete on price, fly newer airplanes, etc. etc.
Actually, not necessarily. Perhaps the service level they currently are
at is the cost maximizing point. Adding more service would not increase
the quantity of passengers enough to justify the cost. Besides, all the
suggestions you mentioned could be used in addition to the advertising
strategy Singapore Airlines uses.
Why don't you go for a management position? I'm sure the
board of directors would be thrilled to have a CEO that can analyze the
financial workings of a corporation without even seeing any of its balance
sheets or cost and profit functions.
Daniel Yang
Bill Lee
>From: dan...@violet.berkeley.edu (Daniel Hung-Yi Yang)
>Subject: Re: Singapore Airline Girls
>Date: 8 Mar 1994 16:33:14 GMT
>Keywords: AA female
What do y'all think about those "Come back to Jamaica" ads? Not just
submissive women but submissive balck people in general. Is it racist?
Although, it is for a vacation, a time when maybe you're supposed to sit back
and perhaps be waited upon. But the connotations... Anyway, the commercial
bothers me a little (although the tune is kind of catchy).
SCW...@psuvm.psu.edu
Hung-Yi Yang) says:
>
>Do people really form opinions of certain gender types or females based
>upon their experiences in the theatre or entertainment? This effect might
>be true if people are not exposed to females or Asians, but Asian -
>American females are commonplace in society.
It's a part of it, yes. Where do you get your opinions and stereotypes?
From your friends, from your parents, and yes, from media.
>Let me put it this way. If you saw an african american woman on a
>commercial for Zimbabwe Airlines acting or even saying that she's
>submissive, would you believe that all black women are submissive? I
>certainly would not.
Yes, but that's not an existing stereotype of Black women. Of course
one isolated commercial or whatever won't create a stereotype... but
many incidents taken as a whole certainly *will*. That's the case with
Asian women and then 'submissive' stereotype.
>Daniel Yang
Peace.
Steve Wei
Michael Yin
>
>
Hmmm. I was having this converastion with a co-worker today, about
restaurants, and I was telling him how, for the most part, he shouldn't be
eating on Grant Avenue (the "main" drag in SF Chinatown) 'cos it's for the
tourists, and the food sucks because of it. I was asking him if he realized
that Chinatown is the only ghetto where people visit it like it's Disneyland,
and I told him about the tours that they used to run to Chinatown in the 40's
and 50's, where nice, non-Asian folks could go see an "authentic" opium den,
staffed by regular Chinatown folks who smoked tobacco while pretending to
smoke dope.
Point is that people expect to encounter what they're taught to
encounter by the media. Unless you're, say an African baby, born to Chinese
parents, a majority of your opinion will come from the media. Hate to think
so little of people's capacity for self-teaching, but for the most part,
people will tend to take the easy way out. My disclaimer here is that netters
are an unrepresentative lot, so don't getcher chonies in a knot, 'kay? College
and post-grad education is a wonderful thing, but even so, there are some
nutcases here and there.
*You* might not believe in media stereotyping, but sadly, there are
many that do... Can't tell you how many times I've been asked "So do you know
Kung Fu?" to which, after age 14, I had to reply, "Sorry. Only Shotokan."
Andy Shaw
In article <SHAW.94M...@corvette.lcs.mit.edu>,
Andy Shaw <sh...@corvette.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <2li9ls$l...@agate.berkeley.edu> dan...@violet.berkeley.edu (Daniel Hung-Yi Yang) writes:
>Now I certainly do think that Singapore Airlines should take care of
>business, but I also think that they could do so without pimping their
>stewardesses. They could run on time, have fast, efficient, courteous
>service, compete on price, fly newer airplanes, etc. etc.
Actually, not necessarily. Perhaps the service level they currently are
at is the cost maximizing point. Adding more service would not increase
the quantity of passengers enough to justify the cost. Besides, all the
suggestions you mentioned could be used in addition to the advertising
strategy Singapore Airlines uses.
Sure. And all the suggestions I mentioned could be used in addition to
giving all the male passengers a free blow job too, but I'm not going to
suggest that or condone it.
Why don't you go for a management position? I'm sure the
board of directors would be thrilled to have a CEO that can analyze the
financial workings of a corporation without even seeing any of its balance
sheets or cost and profit functions.
I haven't seen their balance sheets, but I wonder if you _really_ believe
that they would go under if they stopped pimping their stewardesses. If
so, that is a very poorly run company, and furthermore, if you believe
that, you don't know very much about business.
Whether a business can make a profit or not does not necessarily have any
implications about the morality of the method they go about making a
profit. If I were a pimp or a drug dealer, I could make the argument that
my business would really suffer if I stopped selling my prostitutes' bodies
and if I stopped selling crack ... but so what? Just because I would lose
money doesn't mean that I am justified in doing what I do.
-Andy
Daniel Hung-Yi Yang
>Yes, but that's not an existing stereotype of Black women. Of course
>one isolated commercial or whatever won't create a stereotype... but
>many incidents taken as a whole certainly *will*. That's the case with
>Asian women and then 'submissive' stereotype.
So if there was a stereotype that said all African women were aggressive
and some advertisers portrayed an aggressive African woman, and on top of
that some of your friends said that African women were aggressive, you
are saying you would suscribe to that stereotype.
Right?
Daniel Yang
Daniel Hung-Yi Yang
Andy Shaw <sh...@corvette.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>Sure. And all the suggestions I mentioned could be used in addition to
>giving all the male passengers a free blow job too, but I'm not going to
>suggest that or condone it.
I won't flame the above example because I happen to like it. =) The example
not the idea.
>I haven't seen their balance sheets, but I wonder if you _really_ believe
>that they would go under if they stopped pimping their stewardesses. If
>so, that is a very poorly run company, and furthermore, if you believe
>that, you don't know very much about business.
Did I say that? Actually perhaps you need a basic refresher course in
business or economics. The goal of a firm is to maximize profits. I was
saying that advertising the "Singapore Girls" helps the firm achieve
the profit maximizing point. Going under promulgates the fact that without
the manner of advertising, the company would go under. I'm saying that
without the advertising, the firm would be no longer maximizing its profits.
Where did you get from my post that I was saying that the airline would
go UNDER? Do you know the difference between maximization of profits and
loss of profits?
>Whether a business can make a profit or not does not necessarily have any
>implications about the morality of the method they go about making a
>profit. If I were a pimp or a drug dealer, I could make the argument that
Again, I never claimed that it did. Most businesses do not factor in
externalities such as morality and the affect on overly sensitive people.
Daniel Yang
Alex Lee
>Andy Shaw <sh...@corvette.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>I won't flame the above example because I happen to like it. =) The example
>not the idea.
>
>>I haven't seen their balance sheets, but I wonder if you _really_ believe
>>that they would go under if they stopped pimping their stewardesses. If
>>so, that is a very poorly run company, and furthermore, if you believe
>>that, you don't know very much about business.
>
>Did I say that? Actually perhaps you need a basic refresher course in
>business or economics. The goal of a firm is to maximize profits. I was
Yeah, but that's a short term policy that was employed by corporations like
Fairchild Semiconductor when they fired Bob Widlar because they wanted to
minimize cost in the process. Some firms such as Matsushita would rather
maximize revenues even if they would have to absorb losses in the process
for them to gain market share. Remember, you don't necessarily have to
maximize revenue in order to maximize profits. You have to take the first
order derivative of the revenue function and the first order derivative
of the cost function, set them equal, and then find the quantity produced
value that would maximize the positive difference between revenue and
cost. But I do agree with you that many corporations do adopt the short
term profit maximization technique but then critisize others for not
adopting the same policy.
>Where did you get from my post that I was saying that the airline would
>go UNDER? Do you know the difference between maximization of profits and
>loss of profits?
>
>>Whether a business can make a profit or not does not necessarily have any
>>implications about the morality of the method they go about making a
>>profit. If I were a pimp or a drug dealer, I could make the argument that
>
>
>Again, I never claimed that it did. Most businesses do not factor in
>externalities such as morality and the affect on overly sensitive people.
Some other externalities include public relations, employee dissatisfaction,
and environmental policies.
--
##########################################################################
# ///////// Fully automatic flame thrower #
# ///////////////////////// :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) #
# /////// Alex "I flame therefore I am" Lee #
Ed Hall
: Did I say that? Actually perhaps you need a basic refresher course in
That is one of the goals of a business, and perhaps the only goal of
/some/ businesses. Organized crime comes to mind as an example (goes
right along with the "pimping" metaphor Andy was using).
: I was
: saying that advertising the "Singapore Girls" helps the firm achieve
: the profit maximizing point. Going under promulgates the fact that without
: the manner of advertising, the company would go under. I'm saying that
: without the advertising, the firm would be no longer maximizing its profits.
There really isn't any way to know; perhaps there would be other ways
of advertising which would work as well. Using sex to sell might only have
been the easy way out. It certainly isn't imaginative. But that's
besides the point.
: Where did you get from my post that I was saying that the airline would
: go UNDER? Do you know the difference between maximization of profits and
: loss of profits?
I think Andy was using a little hyperbole (not a good idea since the net
has yet to develop a hyperbole emoticon).
: >Whether a business can make a profit or not does not necessarily have any
: >implications about the morality of the method they go about making a
: >profit. If I were a pimp or a drug dealer, I could make the argument that
: Again, I never claimed that it did. Most businesses do not factor in
: externalities such as morality and the affect on overly sensitive people.
Actually, most businesses do, at least those who wish to stay around for a
long time. Aside from the moral angle, this can make solid business
sense: there are a lot of intangibles involved in the public's perception
of a company, and the perception of good corporate citizenship is one of
them. Yes, marketing types are getting better at manipulating public
perceptions, but as we all know, "spin doctoring" is an imperfect
science.
BTW, I don't consider treating women with equal respect to be "overly
sensitive." And calling a grown woman a "girl" hardly qualifies as
respect.
-Ed Hall
edh...@rand.org
Brian L. Robinson
>
>
>
> Well, I'm glad my posting generated some interest since that was my
> intention. I apologize if my references to "western male fantasies"
> offended anyone. I think my use of this term to describe the cinematic and
> theatrical genres I mentioned (Suzy Wong, geisha girl, Miss Saigan) was
> appropriate. Speaking for myself and the asian males I know these are not
> *our* fantasies. Asian women are our mothers, sisters, cousins, etc. We
> draw our conclusions of Asian and Asian-American women from actual people
> we know and respect and not from Hollywood's distorted point of view.
>
But why have I seen the Singapore Airlines commercials in Taiwan, where most of
the men are Asian, but never in America? Will someone please tell me where in
the U.S. you've seen these commercials? Does the area have large numbers of OAD
Americans?
>
> Peace*,
> --Phillip Liu
>
>
>
> * I know it's Steve Wei's line but it seemed appropriate ;-).
>
--
Timothy J. Lee
|Daniel Hung-Yi Yang <dan...@violet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
|>>Whether a business can make a profit or not does not necessarily have any
|>>implications about the morality of the method they go about making a
|>>profit. If I were a pimp or a drug dealer, I could make the argument that
|>
|>Again, I never claimed that it did. Most businesses do not factor in
|>externalities such as morality and the affect on overly sensitive people.
|
|Some other externalities include public relations, employee dissatisfaction,
|and environmental policies.
Actually, none of these are truly completely external, since, for example,
bad public relations may cause people not to buy from the company. What
it does mean is that the company believes that the losses caused by bad
public relations are outweighed by the additional gains made by the action
that created the bad public relations, or that the company does not truly
understand why its actions generate bad public relations, or that the
company does not know what it can reasonably do to satisfy those who
dislike its policies.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee tim...@netcom.com
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Andy Shaw
In article <SHAW.94M...@corvette.lcs.mit.edu>,
Andy Shaw <sh...@corvette.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>I haven't seen their balance sheets, but I wonder if you _really_ believe
>that they would go under if they stopped pimping their stewardesses. If
>so, that is a very poorly run company, and furthermore, if you believe
>that, you don't know very much about business.
Did I say that? Actually perhaps you need a basic refresher course in
business or economics. The goal of a firm is to maximize profits. I was
saying that advertising the "Singapore Girls" helps the firm achieve
the profit maximizing point. Going under promulgates the fact that without
the manner of advertising, the company would go under. I'm saying that
without the advertising, the firm would be no longer maximizing its profits.
A firm may have many goals, not only maximizing its short-term profits, and
furthermore, a firm may have many restrictions, both external (legal and
otherwise) and self-imposed (company culture, ethical standards, etc.).
You seem to imply that maximizing profits exonerates them for their
behavior. Is this true, or am I just reading things into your statements
that you aren't intending?
Finally, I read somewhere that in a poll of top executives, the top
characteristic which they considered important in success in business was
ethical behavior. I have the source at home, and can cite it if anyone is
interested.
-Andy
PS: I concede that ethical standards may be different for different
countries, including Singapore, and that these standards should be
respected. However, in doing business in the US, foreign companies should
abide by American standards, and it seems rather unusual that Singapore
Airlines is the only airline which is currently using sex to sell airline
tickets. What's the deal?
"What a way to fly ... Singapore girl"? I find that pretty offensive,
especially as an Asian American.
Timothy J. Lee
|Finally, I read somewhere that in a poll of top executives, the top
|characteristic which they considered important in success in business was
|ethical behavior. I have the source at home, and can cite it if anyone is
|interested.
Does this source also survey what these executives define as "ethical"
behavior? The fact that someone believes in ethical behavior doesn't
mean much if one does not know what kind of behavior is considered
ethical by that person.
GCMS generic-lcp
In article <2li9ca$l...@agate.berkeley.edu>, dan...@violet.berkeley.edu (Daniel Hung-Yi Yang) writes:
||> Do people really form opinions of certain gender types or females based
|> upon their experiences in the theatre or entertainment? This effect might
|> be true if people are not exposed to females or Asians, but Asian -
|> American females are commonplace in society.
Hmmm... from your mail address, it looks like you are at UC Berkeley. You should realize that the Asian American (male and female) population in CA is NOT at all representative of the entire US. I have seen statistics claiming that San Francisco's AA population is 30%! In the rest of the US the population of AA's is closer to 3%. In the midwest and southeast where my SO lives and works, the AA population is probably even less then this. In these areas, AA females are NOT commonplace in society. Howev
er, these people still have easy access to the same media that continues to portray AA females and males in a damaging stereotypical manner.
BTW, the Singapore Airlines commerical I referred to is being broadcast in the NYC metropolitan area.
--Phillip Liu
Daniel Hung-Yi Yang
Brian L. Robinson <bl...@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>In article <2lfl8s$h...@osprey.ftn.us-ny.citicorp.com>, gc...@fig.citib.com (GCMS generic-lcp) writes:
>But why have I seen the Singapore Airlines commercials in Taiwan, where most of
>the men are Asian, but never in America? Will someone please tell me where in
>the U.S. you've seen these commercials? Does the area have large numbers of OAD
>Americans?
Well you can see the commercials on TV for starters.
Where else would (did) you look?
Daniel Yang
Brian L. Robinson
Yes, I'm sure Taiwanese males find Asian women very exotic, which is why all the
commercials I've seen for Singapore girls were on TV in Taiwan.
|>
|>
|> Daniel Yang
Brian L. Robinson
That's pretty much it. But like I say, I haven't seen the commercials on TV in
the U.S.. I had assumed it was because the feminists would have a fit, whereas
feminist don't have much power in Taiwan.
|>
|>
|>
|> Daniel Yang
Edward Tsong
They like to advertise in "The Economist" and other such mags, too.
: Daniel Yang
________________________
Ed Tsong
edt...@husc.harvard.edu
Edward Tsong
: PS: I concede that ethical standards may be different for different
: countries, including Singapore, and that these standards should be
: respected. However, in doing business in the US, foreign companies should
: abide by American standards, and it seems rather unusual that Singapore
: Airlines is the only airline which is currently using sex to sell airline
: tickets. What's the deal?
You could argue that since many American businessmen fly to Singapore to do
business, they should be expected to accept Singaporean standards, too.
I'm not condoning the airline's practices, but your argument seems pretty
weak.
________________________
Ed Tsong
edt...@husc.harvard.edu
Alex Lee
This is the interpretation I got from Andy's post.
The Singaporean Airlines, in trying to capture the market for businessmen in
US, should try to market their products in accordance with the prevailing
culture and attitudes here which is much less sexist than Singaporean culture.
America is sexist enough as it already. Why aggravate the situation by going
in the direction opposite to the progress we have gained in this country for
the Women's rights.
I think that's what Andy was trying to say, but I could be wrong.
I myself understand Andy's argument. But I wholly believe in the freedom of
speech so I support their right to market it, but do not necessarily agree
with it.
Daniel Hung-Yi Yang
Brian L. Robinson <bl...@hemlock.cs.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>Yes, I'm sure Taiwanese males find Asian women very exotic, which is why all the
>commercials I've seen for Singapore girls were on TV in Taiwan.
Well look harder they exist in Japan and the United States as well.
Daniel Yang