What an excellent bit of news that would be!  Already two F-18s collided
and crashed, killing at least one pilot. I was so happy when I heard that
news.  It serves them right for doing the nasty, evil things that they
went over there do in the Arabian (Persian) Gulf region.  Maybe a
whirlpool or something like that in the ocean can sink those ugly
warships.  It's time for the sucker troops to realize that they have no
legitimate purpose to be there (killing innocent civilians) and they are
being used as guinea pigs by their governments (remember Gulf War
Syndrome-perhaps caused by experimental drugs being used on them by the
military).  And it's time that the public worldwide wakes up.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet

It's time you wake up to the fact that an American pilot has died.  that
means nothing to you?  i have been against any military intervention since
1990 but the simple fact is that the world needs to be rid of people like
you who think that when an Arab dies it's thime to end the evil exploits of
the americans but when an american dies it's time to open a bottle of
champagne and have a party.  That pilot was as innocent as the civilians you
speak of, he was just flying a plane to enforce the no-fly zone.  He didn't
kill anyone.  And as for drug testing, you are full of shit.  The Gulf War
Syndrome has at this point no cause that can be proven.  Furthermore,
explain why troops would not have that reaction to chmical weapons
encountered when iraqi chemical depots were destroyed.  Remeber all those
bombings on CNN?  They weren't all milk factories.
When you come up with some facts instead of jumping at the chance to bash
someone else, then come  back to the net.  Until then get the hell off.
casey

***********
What's wrong with you?  This is the Iraqi newsgroup; they can say what
they please.  Take your own advice.

  Wait a minuet, aren't the Arabs were the one called for the Americans to
save their Ass's when Saddamn invaded Kuwait and was heading for the
Saudi's, or the hypocrite Nation of Arabia have an amnesia and can not
recall what they have done yesterday . I have not seen such hypocrisy in my
life  as the one been demonstrated by Arabs and their brother Muslims in
current crises . Now Arabs Want to save poor Saddamn, a victim of his
madness , not only that but the Arabs hypocrisy goes to extend to say that "
they want to save the Iraqi people and not Saddamn " , when Saddamn killed
hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq, those pathetic Arabs
and Muslims did not even bother to condemn the criminal acts of Hussain
during the 70 's and the 80's .No, Saddamn was the good man and now he is
the victim . You Arabs butt off and go and save your own people that most of
them suffer under dictatorships similar to  One that of Saddam . Good job
USA and hope to drop more bombs on Saddams head .

an Iraqi

You Ass

You need one of this bombs on your had.

George

What are the damned Yanks doing in the middle of the Muslim world? This
notion of national interest - What is it? Since when does going to the
Persian Gulf - a sea surrounded by Arabs and Persians - make it American
national interest? Why don't you Jew lovers go back to the Americas? You
know very well the people on this side of the world don't welcome you!

Are you going to drop it on my head dickhead!

That's funny, the 9 or 10 times I've been to Saudi, I've met loads of
Canadian "sucker troops", as well as French, Italian, and British
soldiers and aviators.  Would you be singing the same tune if it had
been 2 of your pilots?

B-Nez
FC3S-NAX Driver

Are you serious???....you really think that the pilots are innocent???
then how can you be against military intervention..if you know that your
pilots are just poor, nice chaps that are so considerate..!!! these
pilots where shooting iraqis and screaming on the frequency"we are
shooting fish in a barrel". these are the pilots that shot one of their
own and screamed"stick a fork in him!!!" they might be nice..but they
sure are stupid..to generate more casualties for themselves than what
the Iraqi army did.
This does not mean anything...It only enforces the idea that the
government screwed up.
 Actually you are contradicting your self...you are saying that if the
troops suffered a chemical reaction then they would have encountered it
from the bombing of the so-called chemical factories..but the troops
were not even close to these factories. and these factories are situated
within residential areas.where the people would suffer sypmtoms related
to the GWS,but they didn't..so these factories did in fact produce
milk...and the UN inspection commission certified this..but I guess you
don't follow up on that.  We only bombed these factories because they
are part of a (destruction package) that is designed to take down the
whole infrastructure of a country...the war was directed against the
civilians not the army...
I wasn't aware that we needed your permission to get on!!!
I thought you lived under a democracy????
Sid

How did the Gulf War end?
Did Iraq agree to a cease fire terms? or surrendered? or conditionally
surendered?

As an Iraqi, I am rebuffed when it comes to this issue, I believe that
Iraq agrred to a conditional surrender, otherwise, why would all these
UNSCOM be walking freely in Iraq and suppose to search anyplace they
seem suspecious.  We have seen lots of cease fires in other wars which
involved the USA, take for example the Vietnem war, and for that fact
the UN War in Korea.  None of them ended the same way that the Gulf war
had, none of those countries had been humiliated as Iraq has been, that
leads me to believe that the Gulf war ended with Iraq surrendering with
conditions.

Propper discussion is encouraged..

Best of regards,
Ashor

I can only speak from what I saw and heard from the Press in the USA.
It appears that once faced with overwhelming forces, Iraqui forces
pretty much ceased fire and withdrew.  Ath the same time, the allied
forces fighting Iraq stopped the systematic slaughter of Iraqui forces
once they realized an full fledged retrograde action was in progress.
Once both sides had separated and stopped shooting, a settlement of
hostilities was undertaken.  To call it a conditional surrender may be
too harsh a term.  From this vantage point, it appears that both sides
decided that it was time for the slaughter to stop.

I am not saying that the men of Iraq were not brave.  The thousands upon
thousands of them that died fighting for their country prove otherwise.
No man can stand against overwhelming odds.  

I do believe there were a couple of reasons that allied forces did not
continue to advance into Iraq and seek an unconditional surrender afrer
conquering that nation.

1.  I believe that allied forces would have suffered much greater losses
had Iraq been invaded.  There is much difference between attacking a man
defending someone else's territory he himself has conquered and fighting
the same man defending his native land.

2.  The Qur'an teaches us we should be merciful in battle when an enemy
stops fignting.  The allied forces were comprized of many nations, many
of which are Muslim.  While American forces could have continued
fighting without the troups of the Muslim nations in the coalition, they
could not have continued fighting without the support of their
governments.  Especially Saudi Arabia.  If the American forces had
continued to advance into Iraq, there may have been a very good
possibility that they might have been cut off from their lines of
supply.  That is what eventually defeated Rommel in North Africa during
WWII.

3.  If the Coalition forces had conquered Iraq and deposed Sadaam
Hussen, who would have stepped forward to take his place in the power
vaccum in that region?  The possibility of Iran, or ultra liberal Muslim
clergy taking over may have been more frightening than leaving Sadaam
where he was to the Americans.  I think they felt that the Iranian
people would remove Hussen from within the country.  More than likely
the military commanders in a coup.  This did not work out.  America
underestimated the strength Hussen had in his country, and the
effectiveness of the combination of his security forces and propaganda
within his own country.

Just a few thoughts .

Richard Jackson

Thank you Mr. Jackson for your very informative thoughts, I really
appreciate it.
However, I still believed that there was some kind of surrender (even if
it is too harsh of a word) agreement took place.  Once on one of the
Arabian stattelite TV programs, there was this individual from some
Arabian country (I forgot which country) which he represented it in the
Arabian League, he made a comment that got me more interested in knowing
the all the details of the cease hostilities agreement in the Gulf war,
this person said that if the Iraqi people knew what Saddam had agreed on
to stop hostilities, they would cut him to pieces....

Know, I don't know how much true was there in his comments, but it did
get me wondering till now, and all these free movements and access of
UNSCOM teams do lead me to believe that there was more than a cease fire
agreement.

Best of regards,
Ashor

(big snit)

Not only that, this newsgroup is supposed to cover the topic of
culture...

-----------------------------------------------------
PENTAGON STEPS UP DRIVE FOR
WORLD DOMINATION: WHAT FUELS WAR
ON IRAQ?

By Fred Goldstein

The Iraq crisis has brought into bold relief one of the
contradictions plaguing U.S. imperialism as it strives to
assert absolute world domination in the post-Soviet era.

It is the contradiction between its growing military
firepower and its increasing political isolation

It is against this background that the U.S. government
moves closer and closer to a new Gulf War.

When the United States led the imperialist world into the
Gulf War in 1991, it had marshaled 265,000 troops from 27
other countries in addition to its own troops.

These included the Western European imperialist powers
as well as oppressed countries, including Egypt and Syria,
dragooned into the fray.

Washington was the ringleader of a grand alliance to
"protect" the hundreds of billions of barrels of oil
reserves in Kuwait--and potentially in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain
and the United Arab Emirates.

There was no threat to the natural resources themselves.
The threat was to the control of oil extraction and
production, which is dominated by the big imperialist oil
companies in the United States and Europe. The Iraqi
government was attempting to assert some independence.

In the current crisis, Secretary of State Madeleine
Albright has gone to Europe and to the Arab states of Egypt,
Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Kuwait. United Nations
Ambassador Bill Richardson has gone to Sweden, Portugal,
Slovenia, Kenya, Gambia, Brazil, Gabon and Costa Rica--the
non-permanent members of the UN Security Council.
Secretary of Defense William Cohen was in Europe to lobby
Italy, France and Germany. President Bill Clinton made a
phone call to Saudi King Fahd.

After all the diplomacy, arm twisting, threatening and
promising was over, only the British government--the United
States' longtime junior partner--and its dependencies Canada
and Australia, plus the puppet sheikdoms of Kuwait, Bahrain
and Oman, would stand by Washington. And, except for the
British government, that support is lukewarm.

No matter how many other dependent governments the Clinton
administration coerces to pay lip service to this motley
"coalition," it will not change the utter isolation of U.S.
imperialism.

German Chancellor Helmut Kohl gave verbal support and
offered the use of German bases, which are not needed for
military operations in the Gulf, in what has been widely
characterized as a token show of support.

FEAR OF THE MASSES

Why are the former Gulf War allies reluctant?
Among the Arab governments it is clear. They fear the
masses.
Amre Moussa, Egypt's foreign minister, told a Washington
Post reporter on Feb. 6 in a diplomatic understatement: "The
whole Middle East is not comfortable with this, and I don't
think there is support for [a military strike by the U.S.
and Britain]. All of us will face the consequences of such a
military attack."

Saudi Arabian Defense Minister Prince Sultan's feudal
monarchy despises and fears the secular, modern, nationalist
regime of Saddam Hussein and its anti-imperialist posture.
Nevertheless he was compelled to openly oppose his U.S.
masters in their demands to use Saudi Arabia to stage air
attacks on Iraq.

"We do not favor striking Iraq as a people and as a
nation," the prince was widely quoted as saying in Saudi
news reports. (New York Times, Feb. 9) Such a statement
could only arise from fear of publicly giving aid to U.S.
aggression.

The French imperialists, of course, have no interest in
seeing their U.S. rivals strengthened. The United States has
been trying to sabotage French deals for oil with both Iraq
and Iran. Now Washington has the arrogance to demand that
Paris line up behind its war.

The Yeltsin regime in Russia is wary that not only will it
be shut out of the Middle East, but that the high-tech,
deep-penetration weapons the Pentagon wants to test in Iraq
could be used against Russia itself.

FIGHTING THE GULF WAR AGAIN

With the Clinton administration edging closer to a
military adventure in Iraq, anxiety and pessimism about the
plan are spreading--even as new ships, planes and troops are
ordered to the region.

Washington knows that the Iraqi people's hatred of the
United States is now so great that bombing will not bend
their will. In fact, it could set off a firestorm of protest
against U.S. imperialism throughout the Arab world. A U.S.
military strike at this time could also further deepen the
split within the NATO alliance.

So what's behind such a seemingly perilous strategy?
Washington puts the issue in terms of destroying
biological and chemical weapons. But this is strictly for
popular consumption.

Of course, the imperialists want to disarm any oppressed
country that defies them. That goes without saying. It is
fine for the United States to have enough nuclear weapons to
destroy the globe. But for Iraq--faced with not only with
the Pentagon threat but a nuclear-armed Israel--to have any
comparable weapon is strictly forbidden.

Yet with all the military means at the disposal of the
United States, fear of Iraqi weapons can only be regarded as
a secondary issue.

In fact, Clinton may have inadvertently revealed the
underlying tendency driving this crisis during his joint
news conference with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. When
asked whether or not the United States intended to overthrow
Saddam Hussein, Clinton replied: "I don't believe we need to
refight the Gulf War. It's history. It happened, that's the
way it is. I don't believe we need to get into a direct war
with Iraq over the leadership of the country."

The political debates in Washington and on the editorial
pages of the capitalist press make it clear that what's
behind this crisis is the pressure to fight the Gulf War
again--only this time to destroy the regime of Saddam
Hussein.

It must never be forgotten that Iraq has 100 billion
barrels of proven oil reserves. That is just shy of one-
tenth of the world's 1.1 trillion barrels. The U.S. ruling
class and sections of the military believe they came close
to having it all during the Gulf War of 1991.

They feel that while they were poised for the kill, the
Bush administration, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair Gen. Colin
Powell and theater commander Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf pulled
up short.

This dispute broke out the day after the war was over. It
has never been put to rest.

The Pentagon and the military-industrial complex have been
preparing to refight the war for six years. "Frustrated by
their inability to fully immobilize Saddam Hussein in
Operation Desert Storm," the Feb. 1 Washington Post wrote,
"the military has spent huge amounts of money and time
developing weapons that can accomplish their task with
greater accuracy and deadliness."

The article went on to describe new "smart" bombs tied in
to a satellite-guided global positioning system, new "bunker
buster" deep-penetration bombs and other Pentagon weapons of
mass destruction.

Rep. Newt Gingrich and Sen. Trent Lott, the Republican
leaders of Congress, support the military buildup. But at
the same time they are baiting Clinton about limiting the
military objective to destroying Iraq's military capability.

They demand the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

This could be passed off as election-year demagogy--but
for a letter drawn up by Richard Perle and former Democratic
Rep. Steven Solarz, which has been circulating in Congress
since Jan. 26. Perle was an assistant secretary of defense
under Ronald Reagan and has emerged as a representative of
the tendency in the ruling class that wants to refight the
Gulf War.

"It can no longer be argued," Perle wrote in the Feb. 8
Washington Post, "that stopping half way is good enough. The
idea that we and our allies could find safety in a
`contained' Saddam Hussein encouraged the Bush
administration to halt Desert Storm before the job was
done."

The letter, directed to Clinton, has 18 signers. It calls
for "removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power."
(Washington Post, Feb. 5)

Among the signers are R. James Woolsey, Clinton's first
director of the CIA; Donald Rumsfeld, secretary of defense
under Reagan; Paula Dobriansky, head of the Washington
office of the Council on Foreign Relations; Robert Zoellick,
a key foreign-policy adviser to Bush; leading right-wing
ideologue William Bennett, secretary of education under
Reagan and "drug czar" under Bush; and Robert Kagan of the
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, who recently
wrote an article for the right-wing Weekly Standard calling
for ground troops in Iraq.

The signers are not agreed on a program. But the Perle
group has separately elaborated a plan to promote the CIA
puppet group called the Iraq National Congress, which is
based in northern Iraq.

The Perle plan calls for the Hussein government to be
expelled from the United Nations. Then the United States
would recognize the INC and ply it with money taken from
frozen Iraqi national assets. Washington would also supply
it with military power and air cover.

Other schemes build on this scenario and call for using
the Iranian government to bolster the effort.

RECRIMINATIONS IN THE RULING CLASS

While such scenarios are gaining currency in Washington as
an alternative to the use of U.S. ground forces, it is not
possible to tell to what degree this reflects military and
ruling-class sentiment. But there are always recriminations
within the military and the ruling class when they do not
get their way on the battlefield.

Recriminations against the Kennedy administration for not
supplying air cover and going all out militarily to
overthrow Fidel Castro in 1961 may very well have fed the
reactionary political current that carried out his
assassination.

The U.S. struggle to destroy Cuba has not
abated in 39 years.

To this day the United States has not recognized the
results of the Korean War. It has not permitted a peace
treaty with the Democratic People's ...

read more »

Wow which hallucenagenic products are you ingesting?

1.The pilots of the Iraqi airforce are a military organisation - not boy
scouts ( so they are as guilty as the Americans or not as your pointless
case may be)

2.The Americans  were engaging in a conflict involving multi national
forces to pursue the mandate of the UN - not gassing kurds or invading
their nighbours as some local ( or Lo-cal in this case) forces are wont to
do when there is no opposition that can defend itself.

3.As for "fish in a barrel - be honest the Piolts were "pumped up on
Adrenaline" and said stupid stuff............so what? they are human after
all (this is a stupid point  you have no brain - what did the Iraqis do
while they were invading another country, say " ooh Im awfully sorry do you
mind putting your hands up?" .

4. As for Stupidity  - these pilots can fight and die for there country (
Iraqi Airforce take note ) Its there job. They did not run
away..........Say to Iran. So these guys were bright enough for the task at
hand.

5. As for the Other stuff re the disposal of Chem Weps / Bio Weps
5.1 Dont make them ( or your arse gets kicked)
5.2 Saddam has sufficient CW/BW stockpiled  to destroy you me and everyone
else on the Planet  - and hes used this stuff before on Women and Children
-  so get real
5.3 You have not got a clue - get an education before I start really
kicking your thick opinionated skull...metaphorically of course.

6.0 The Only way to deal with Saddam is to remove the infrastructure and
apparatus that supports him, he is a dangerous maniac who could destroy the
whole world. Nobody with an IQ of more than 60 wants a war, but if he is
not removed from power millions may have to die to prove the simple fact

Chemical Weapons / Nuclear Weapons and Bio Weapons are stupid, dangerous
and ultimatley self defeating. Every country that has them should get rid
of them.

Art

Sid D. Al-Omari <stud.s...@luc.edu> wrote in article
<34DF9F41.1...@luc.edu>...

Why of course..why should the US be held responsible for
anything.....supporting pol pot the madmen...slaughtering Vietnam.......and
everything else.
The United Nations is The US........the west is good and true....and all you
Arabs are devious liars always up to no good and burning the American flag
for no reason.

White people run the world my friend.

What does this has to do with my question?.  Hey you, white person, to
your information I am not an Arab.

I thought your flag was the confederate flag, go rule Georgia and
Mississipi first.

Hey !

the voice of political correctness speaks!

pay attention!

America does bad things, so does

Ethiopia
South Africa
France
UK
Russia
Pakistan
China
Argentina
Chile
and loads of other counties ( Except Tibet - says Hollywood)
or do people do bad things?

Im not sure, one thing is for sure, the end of the conflict was a good
thing. America did not kill Saddam for lots of reasons, mostly I guess
because of the deadly combination of turning him into a martyr and the fact
that a prolonged war would have been bad for the Presidents approval
rating.
Art

FunkDredd Pipex <j...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<6bvngr$86...@plug.news.pipex.net>...

  The only place that I have seen the word "imperialist" used more often is
in the official North Korean News Agency propaganda.

--

If the U.S. is "imperialist" what is North Korea?  I will take living
in imperialist U.S. than North Korea anyday.

This coming from a person who makes more spelling errors than a 3rd
grade  child!!! but I will stop the insults right here because unlike
you I have manners!
my case is not pointless, since the iraqi pilots were trained in a
british academy(believe it or not...I don't care)..and they do not
usually get themselves killed.
  Read a little bit about the history of the kurds before you can use
it...they were double crossed by your government and by the british a
dozen times...so your people are no angels my boy. And as for Kuwait,
not only were their Oil interests and conflicts, but reasons beyond your
comprehension....(this is the decision of your government which chose
not to inform you nor the public).
 They were handling themselves alot better than you, I bet.!!!

What is this supposed to mean.???.they did not fight and die for their
country...they fought for other people's interests, and they died
through screw ups!!!

OK....I lived in iraq until 1993 as a british subject, and now I am
getting my Law degree after I finished my charter in Public Accounting.
so I think I have some form of an education.  And I lived through 2 wars
and have survived your government's policies and hypocracy in the ME
region, to know the facts...  So please do not lecture me about any of
this...Because you have niether the experience nor the intellect to
talk.
OK...your country wants the war, your country supplied Iraq with the
chemical and biological capability to produce what is under the
spotlight these days...and your country has more of these weapons than
Iraq will ever have.....so what were you saying???????????????????

Sid

 > What's wrong with you?  This is the Iraqi newsgroup; they can say
what
Besides the fact that we live in a democracy....and you are right!!, we
can say what we please and when it pleases us to say it...
I did not see any culture on soc.culture.usa. or any newsgroup for that
matter...in case you want culture..check out many of the iraqi websites
that explains how we created the concept of culture for you 2000 years
ago...

Sid

Everybody, don't listen to this moron. This in no American. He's a NAZI.
Burn any crosses lately, you high and mighty member of the master race?
You're slime.

Well I have not seen the document but it would seem like a
condiotional surrender.

  We have seen lots of cease fires in other wars which

Iraq has not been humiliated in anyone's eyes but Iraq's. Iraq has
been defeated, but has still defied the surrender terms. Not much
humiliation in that.

that

?
.slaughtering Vietnam...
?....and

Let's hear about everything else. Did you forget to mention the latest
attack by crazed minnows against the Kingdom of Neptune?

So why won't the US pay its bills? Why is the head of the UN not an
American. It is because the UN refuses to play along with America's
foreign policy dictac that American congresmen and Senator's keep
blocking payment of the overdue monies to the UN.

So try using the UN instead of misrepresenting it.

........the west is good and true....and all you

Polticians come in all nationalities!

 always up to no good and burning the American flag

So how many key department holders at the UN are white?

Money runs the world, along with greed, envy, and sex.

I agree with you completely. We have no interest in the Middle East
other than to protect our rulers in Israel. What the problem is my
friend, is that my people are enslaved mentally to the Jews. Our media
is totally in their hands and they mold the minds of my people.

With all the money the Arabic people have you could beat the Jews at
their own game, but you have never understood this. Your people could
buy up our media or better yet, fund your enemies enemy to do the
same. If the National Alliance had the economic support, we could
destroy the Jews power base in America and Europe. We know our people
and know how to reach them but are limited by money.

Keep this in mind the next time you get angry at us Europeans. We are
as much a pawn as your people are but we can beat them if we work
together.

Let me know what you think.

Best regards,
Vincent

politically.incorr...@usa.net

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