Swing revival and black folks
The Devil's Advocate©
"Pulse" that talks about the recent swing renaissance and the fact
that the original swingers were black, but that now swing is a white
thing. I have a lot of friends that are into swing now, none of them
black all but one is white. It's an interesting twist of fate.
Personally I have no problem with whites listening and playing black
music whether it be rap, reggae, ska, blue, swing, et al. But what
does bother as the article mention is that the soul is taken out of
it. The dance steps become really mechanical and formulated and
weren't wild and crazy as it once was in the Harlem zoot suit days(and
btw, I notice that people are forgetting that blacks were the first to
wear zoot suits, now Latinos are getting the credit for this, probably
because of the widely publicised zoot suit riots where white military
personal beat down any Latino in L.A. wearing a zoot suit.). It's that
loose and flamboyant nature of black culture that made improvisation
from swing to Hendrix, to break dancers, to even Micheal Jordan's
acrobatics what it is. In fact improvisation in dance in music
underlies much of black cultural expression whereas white cultural
expression has been more forumlated and standardised. I'm not saying
one is better than the other, both are good in their own respects. But
it does bother me that swing was "tamed down" for whites that couldn't
understand (or maybe didn't want to) black culture and music, so that
whites had a sanitised version of black music, which is what Elvis
represents to me. And come to think of it, the same has happened to
funk.
This hasn't happend so much with reggae, but it has happened a bit
with ska, and blues. For whatever reason, whites seem to have
assimlated to reggae culture in this post-Grateful Dead era than any
other genre. It is interesting that when I go to see music that had
black progenitors, the majority crowd is white. It's even getting that
way with hiphop. Many probably don't even know that blacks started the
90s musical trend called "electronica" as this grew out of house music
that layed out the basis for electronica with that steady, thumping
synthesised drum beat. But outside of London, people probably don't
even know that drum N' bass, jungle and trip hop were made by blacks.
But anyway, if any of you get a chance to read the article it's
interesting. The article is called "swing-driven thing." I checked
the online edition but didn't see unfortunately.
http://www.towerrecords.com/pulse/98/sept/index.html
Now don't think I have any problem with different cultures enjoying
and playing another's music, in fact I think it's great and is at
least one solution to overcoming racism, but I can't help but notice
that with all this swing revivalist fervor, there are no blacks
involved, either on stage or on the dance floor.
--
regards,
The Devil's Advocate
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as I could walk (They still swing even though my dad's in his 70's) My honey
and I go swing dancing almost every weekend, even though we have to travel
sixty miles to do so. I really love it. BTW: The IR couple (BF in
polka-dot skirt and red panties) in the Brian Setzer Orchestra's "Jump, Jive
and Wail" video are the national swing champions. It makes me feel good that
I'm not the only black swinger out there!
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Wheeljak
Devil's Advocate©) said:
>There's an interesting article in Tower Record's monthly music mag
>"Pulse" that talks about the recent swing renaissance and the fact
>that the original swingers were black, but that now swing is a white
>thing. I have a lot of friends that are into swing now, none of them
>black all but one is white. It's an interesting twist of fate.
<snip>
A very interesting and insightful post, DA. However, I would like to
offer a simple, if not brief, answer to you:
Public Enemy had a song once upon a time called "Who Stole the Soul?"
My answer to that musical question is: noone. We ABANDONED our own
culture, and it was claimed by the whites under rights of salvage.
We are encouraged by our own Black popular culture to reject anything
that is more than 5 minutes old, and even worse, to reject any PERSON
who does not reject the old, and attach horrible stigmas and names to
them.
If a Black kid wants to follow ska or swing, it's pretty much a given
that he won't see too many other Blacks, and that will invariably lead
to him being called a "sellout" or an "oreo". That really makes my
blood boil, that we would try to take away the freedom of our brothers
and sisters who wish to be themselves, and express themselves the way
their hearts tell them to.
Blues, without which most of today's music would not exist, is avoided
by our young as being primitive and "country". Master guitarist Jimi
Hendrix held on to the Blues, and genius that he was, he was looked
upon as a FOOL by most Blacks. He was playing the music of his elders,
and most Blacks called him an Uncle Tom because he spent his time with
the only other people his age that were interested in the Blues:
white Englishmen. I know people that grew up in the early Seventies
that had to listen to Hendrix in private, so their friends wouldn't
laugh at them. I think that's just sad. We are encouraged by our peers
to reject our own roots!
We have to step back and admit the ugly truth:
The art of the Blues just may have DIED if it weren't for white kids
supporting it. Just read an interview with one of the living Blues
legends. They'll set the record straight. It wasn't Blacks that
exalted them to legendary status; it was the admiring white musicians
that worked hard to emulate their heroes' styles. In doing so, those
admirers became legends of Rock. Enter Elvis Presley. Eric Clapton.
Jimmy Page. Steve Winwood. Keith Richards.
I see this phenomenon being repeated with the Swing thing. I wish Cab
Calloway had lived to see the kids reviving that colorful, exciting
culture that he was instrumental in creating. I think he would be both
excited to see it come around again, but also sad to see that there
are so few Blacks involved in its revival.
Swing was the first true American subculture, long before Hip-Hop. And
it was created and fueled by Black people. Remember, Hip-Hop is not a
solely Black-made culture; it was started jointly between Blacks and
Hispanics. Not that that diminishes it as a Black achievement, but
Swing was made by us, and us alone.
But again, we threw it away, and the whites again saw a perfectly good
thing laying unattended, and they picked it up and ran with it. Now
the only images that we see of people Lindy Hoppin' around the dance
floor, are images of white people. If you watch TV much, I'll bet you
have seen the "Khakis Swing" GAP commercial. I like the commercial,
but it disturbs me that both of the Jitterbuggin' couples are LILY
WHITE! I wonder if Digable Planets knew "The Rebirth of Swing" would
be such a pale one....
I am very happy that the white kids have revived the Swing scene.
However, I am angry that the Black kids are making no move to reclaim
it. Maybe "reclaim" is too aggressive a word for it, because I would
like to see Blacks and whites find a common ground through the Swing
subculture. How beautiful it would be for me to see a Blacks dressed
in Zoot Suits strutting into the swing bars, and integrating those
dance floors. Then, we can show them white kids how the Lindy Hop is
MEANT to be done! : D
Black people, LET'S STOP THROWING AWAY OUR PAST! Our ancestral
cultures were stolen from our forefathers by their captors, and thus
we have had to pick up the pieces and create a NEW identity for
ourselves from scratch. Let's not throw away the culture that WE
created for ourselves!
Wheeljak
It's not what you call me; it's what I answer to.
-African Proverb
The Devil's Advocate©
and it never appeared. I use a spamblock in my address so I don't know
the reason, but I can't imagine why the hell this wouldn't be worthy
of the moderated group. Can anyone see anything in my post that
wouldn've made it offensive/trolling, or anything???
The Devil's Advocate©
wrote:
>A very interesting and insightful post, DA.
Thanks, an equally if not more interesting response. This is the kind
of discussion this NG was meant to have before it was taken over by
racist, trollers, flame baiters.
>However, I would like to
>offer a simple, if not brief, answer to you:
>Public Enemy had a song once upon a time called "Who Stole the Soul?"
>My answer to that musical question is: noone. We ABANDONED our own
>culture, and it was claimed by the whites under rights of salvage.
I've never quite thought of it this way. But you are right. I love it
when someone points out something obvious that I've never realised
sitting right beneath my nose.
>
>We are encouraged by our own Black popular culture to reject anything
>that is more than 5 minutes old, and even worse, to reject any PERSON
>who does not reject the old, and attach horrible stigmas and names to
>them.
The only times I can remember walking into a party and hearing James
Brown is when the party is mostly non-black. Most blacks these days
seem to prefer things like Usher and Wu-Tang to listen to at a party
it seems. Also btw, in Jamaica, ska is seem by the youth there the way
Frank Sinatra might be seen by the youth here. As an old and outdated
music. They pretty much stick to dancehall.
> If a Black kid wants to follow ska or swing, it's pretty much a given
>that he won't see too many other Blacks, and that will invariably lead
>to him being called a "sellout" or an "oreo".
True that you won't see too many blacks. I went to a swing show once
and saw not a single other black out of hundreds. It could have been
because I was in Beverly Hills though. I don't think blacks would go
as far as to call me a sellout if for listening to swing, and
especially ska as it sounds like reggae on speed. But you certainly
wouldn't be a part of the "in" crown avidly listening to such music
over rap and R&B.
>Blues, without which most of today's music would not exist, is avoided
>by our young as being primitive and "country".
I actually heard a white talk radio host joking about the fact that
black kids think of blues the way white kids would think of Barbara
Streisand or something, just old folks music and nothing that has to
do with their generation. It's too bad, because the blues are about as
cultural an African-American(as well as jazz and gospel-all three of
which are old and established music forms) music as flamenco is a
Spanish music, or Mariachi a Mexican music.
>Master guitarist Jimi
>Hendrix held on to the Blues, and genius that he was, he was looked
>upon as a FOOL by most Blacks.
Think so? I'm really not sure about how he was looked on by other
blacks.
>He was playing the music of his elders,
>and most Blacks called him an Uncle Tom because he spent his time with
>the only other people his age that were interested in the Blues:
>white Englishmen.
Really? Hendrix was considered an UncleTom?
>I know people that grew up in the early Seventies
>that had to listen to Hendrix in private, so their friends wouldn't
>laugh at them. I think that's just sad. We are encouraged by our peers
>to reject our own roots!
Sad, and too often true. Music didn't begin with Erykah Bada and
Aaliyah, but try telling that to some of these guys walking around
campus.
>
>We have to step back and admit the ugly truth:
>The art of the Blues just may have DIED if it weren't for white kids
>supporting it.
Although Pink Floyd is hardly a blues band, their name has to do with
blues. I forgot the story behind it.
If whites have kept blues and jazz alive, than wonderful.
>I see this phenomenon being repeated with the Swing thing. I wish Cab
>Calloway had lived to see the kids reviving that colorful, exciting
>culture that he was instrumental in creating.
I need to learn more about Calloway.
>I think he would be both
>excited to see it come around again, but also sad to see that there
>are so few Blacks involved in its revival.
>Swing was the first true American subculture, long before Hip-Hop.
Was there a subculture associated with ragtime? And although not
black, the bluegrass/country subculture may date back to this time.
>And
>it was created and fueled by Black people. Remember, Hip-Hop is not a
>solely Black-made culture; it was started jointly between Blacks and
>Hispanics.
To a small degree. And to the extent it is true it's mainly true in
California. I see rap as entirely growing out of black culture. It
came from the cheesy late 70s sythesised funk/R&B. Well, a lot of it
was cheesy in my opinion anyway. Supposely Sugar Hill Gang were the
first rappers. Now along the way, many NYC Latinos have made
contributions into hiphop culture, but it's roots are still black.
>Not that that diminishes it as a Black achievement, but
>Swing was made by us, and us alone.
>But again, we threw it away, and the whites again saw a perfectly good
>thing laying unattended, and they picked it up and ran with it. Now
>the only images that we see of people Lindy Hoppin' around the dance
>floor, are images of white people. If you watch TV much, I'll bet you
>have seen the "Khakis Swing" GAP commercial.
I hate that cheesy commercial. I do think the camera tricks are
innovative and I take notice to this since I'm studying graphic design
in school. But the Gap is just cashing in on what's exciting at the
moment. Just like Kaluhua's commercial(which I really do like) that
shows a roaring 20s speakeasy type gig where there's swingin' and
people are laughing and drinking.
>I like the commercial,
>but it disturbs me that both of the Jitterbuggin' couples are LILY
>WHITE! I wonder if Digable Planets knew "The Rebirth of Swing" would
>be such a pale one....
>I am very happy that the white kids have revived the Swing scene.
>However, I am angry that the Black kids are making no move to reclaim
>it.
It could be that few blacks know that swing has been revived. I mean,
I don't know if this has caught on anywhere outside of L.A., NYC or
S.F. I doubt if this is the rave in Omaha, Nashville and Fayetteville.
Around these parts, swing is a fashionable thing for bourgeoisie white
L.A. yuppies to do in between sipping expresso at their favorite
trendy café and driving their Z3s up Pacific Coast Highway. I was
visiting a mostly white university in Malibu called Pepperdine(where
Kenneth Starr was supposed to be teaching after the Clinton affair is
over with but I don't think he is anymore) last year. They were having
swing lessons with a swing dance afterwards to practise what they've
learned. I didn't bother dancing and just hung out with friends and
ate the free food. But I was wondering if anything like this would
ever happen in a historically black college as part of a cultural
revival. It would be a great idea for black history month or something
and they could play all kinds of important black names in swing.
>Maybe "reclaim" is too aggressive a word for it, because I would
>like to see Blacks and whites find a common ground through the Swing
>subculture. How beautiful it would be for me to see a Blacks dressed
>in Zoot Suits strutting into the swing bars, and integrating those
>dance floors.
Now that would send chills up my spine! :-) I can see the crowd
parting as they make their way onto the dance floor, looking at them
like the almighty himself had just returned!
The Devil's Advocate©
Devil's AdvocateŠ) wrote:
>Just thought I'd mention. I tried posting this to the moderated group
>and it never appeared. I use a spamblock in my address so I don't know
>the reason, but I can't imagine why the hell this wouldn't be worthy
>of the moderated group. Can anyone see anything in my post that
>wouldn've made it offensive/trolling, or anything???
Uh, nevermind, just saw the posting on the moderated group.
theil...@webtv.net
soca...@earthlink.netNO-JUNK wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 06:15:45 GMT, whee...@cyber.tron (Wheeljak)
> wrote:
>
> >A very interesting and insightful post, DA.
>
> Thanks, an equally if not more interesting response. This is the kind
> of discussion this NG was meant to have before it was taken over by
> racist, trollers, flame baiters.
>
> >However, I would like to
> >offer a simple, if not brief, answer to you:
> >Public Enemy had a song once upon a time called "Who Stole the Soul?"
> >My answer to that musical question is: noone. We ABANDONED our own
> >culture, and it was claimed by the whites under rights of salvage.
>
> I've never quite thought of it this way. But you are right. I love it
> when someone points out something obvious that I've never realised
> sitting right beneath my nose.
>
> >
> >We are encouraged by our own Black popular culture to reject anything
> >that is more than 5 minutes old, and even worse, to reject any PERSON
> >who does not reject the old, and attach horrible stigmas and names to
> >them.
>
>
> The only times I can remember walking into a party and hearing James Brown is when the party is mostly non-black. Most blacks these days seem to prefer things like Usher and Wu-Tang to listen to at a party it seems.
>
>
> Also btw, in Jamaica, ska is seem by the youth there the way Frank Sinatra might be seen by the youth here. As an old and outdated music. They pretty much stick to dancehall.
>
> > If a Black kid wants to follow ska or swing, it's pretty much a given that he won't see too many other Blacks, and that will invariably lead to him being called a "sellout" or an "oreo".
>
> True that you won't see too many blacks. I went to a swing show once and saw not a single other black out of hundreds. It could have been because I was in Beverly Hills though. I don't think blacks would go as far as to call me a sellout if for listening to swing, and
> especially ska as it sounds like reggae on speed. But you certainly wouldn't be a part of the "in" crown avidly listening to such music over rap and R&B.
>
> >Blues, without which most of today's music would not exist, is avoided by our young as being primitive and "country".
>
>
> I actually heard a white talk radio host joking about the fact that black kids think of blues the way white kids would think of Barbara Streisand or something, just old folks music and nothing that has to do with their generation. It's too bad, because the blues are about as
> cultural an African-American(as well as jazz and gospel-all three of which are old and established music forms) music as flamenco is a Spanish music, or Mariachi a Mexican music.
>
> >Master guitarist Jimi Hendrix held on to the Blues, and genius that he was, he was looked upon as a FOOL by most Blacks.
>
"Voodoo Child" & "Purple Haze" are Classics!!! Nobody,
and I mean, NOBODY could play like JIMI!!! (enuff,said!) >
> Think so? I'm really not sure about how he was looked on by other blacks.
>
>
> Yes,they were the EXPERIENCE,Jimi's band!...One of the greatest rock bands of all-time!!! Of course,there were other bands who were intrested in the blues too. Like
the Rolling Stones, and Led Zepplin,possibly "the" greatest rock band of
all-time!...(next to the Experience,of course!) As a matter fact, both groups
credit Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson,for their inspi- ration to do rock
music.
>
>
> Really? Hendrix was considered an UncleTom?
>
> Again,these were some,sick,sick,people! Jimi was one
of the best black musicians of all time!...As a matter
of fact,I would put him right under James Brown!...
>
> >I know people that grew up in the early Seventies
> >that had to listen to Hendrix in private, so their friends wouldn't laugh at them. I think that's just sad. We are encouraged by our peers to reject our own roots!
>
> Down right indignant!!!
>
> Sad, and too often true. Music didn't begin with Erykah Bada and
> Aaliyah, but try telling that to some of these guys walking around
> campus.
>
> >
> >We have to step back and admit the ugly truth:
> >The art of the Blues just may have DIED if it weren't for white kids supporting it.
>
> Although Pink Floyd is hardly a blues band, their name has to do with blues. I forgot the story behind it.
>
> If whites have kept blues and jazz alive, than wonderful.
>
> >I see this phenomenon being repeated with the Swing thing. I wish Cab
> >Calloway had lived to see the kids reviving that colorful, exciting
> >culture that he was instrumental in creating.
>
> I need to learn more about Calloway.
>
> >I think he would be both
> >excited to see it come around again, but also sad to see that there
> >are so few Blacks involved in its revival.
> >Swing was the first true American subculture, long before Hip-Hop.
>
> Was there a subculture associated with ragtime? And a1lthough not
> black, the bluegrass/country subculture may date back to this time.
>
> >And it was created and fueled by Black people. Remember, Hip-Hop is not a solely Black-made culture; it was started jointly between Blacks and Hispanics.
>
> True. D.J. Hollywood was the first to start the crowd
chant,"Throw Ya Hands In The Air" and the "Let Me hear Ya Say,Ho!". Not to
mention hispanics, started the breakdancing and the graffiti.
>
> To a small degree. And to the extent it is true it's mainly true in California. I see rap as entirely growing out of black culture. It came from the cheesy late 70s sythesised funk/R&B.
>
> No it did'nt. Rap's roots are from the dancehall scene
which gave us the D.J.,and to some extent,the M.C.,and
urban street poetry,like that of the Last Poets.
>
Well, a lot of it was cheesy in my opinion anyway. Supposely Sugar Hill Gang
were the first rappers.
>
> No they were not. Rap's "official" first rappers were,
the Cold Crush Brothers,who got started in '72. After
that came the likes of the Fantastic 5,Kurtis Blow,and
then the Sugarhill Gang.
>
Now along the way, many NYC Latinos have made contributions into hiphop
culture, but it's roots are still black.
>
> To some extent.
>
> >Not that that diminishes it as a Black achievement, but Swing was made by us, and us alone.
> >But again, we threw it away, and the whites again saw a perfectly good
> >thing laying unattended, and they picked it up and ran with it. Now
> >the only images that we see of people Lindy Hoppin' around the dance
> >floor, are images of white people. If you watch TV much, I'll bet you
> >have seen the "Khakis Swing" GAP commercial.
>
> I hate that cheesy commercial. I do think the camera tricks are
> innovative and I take notice to this since I'm studying graphic design
> in school. But the Gap is just cashing in on what's exciting at the
> moment. Just like Kaluhua's commercial(which I really do like) that
> shows a roaring 20s speakeasy type gig where there's swingin' and
> people are laughing and drinking.
>
> >I like the commercial,but it disturbs me that both of the Jitterbuggin' couples are LILY WHITE! I wonder if Digable Planets knew "The Rebirth of Swing" would be such a pale one....
>
> Uhh,I believe that is,"Rebirth of Slick"...
>
> >I am very happy that the white kids have revived the Swing scene.
> >However, I am angry that the Black kids are making no move to reclaim it.
>
> How can they "reclaim" something they know nothing
about?...
>
> It could be that few blacks know that swing has been revived. I mean,
> I don't know if this has caught on anywhere outside of L.A., NYC or
> S.F. I doubt if this is the rave in Omaha, Nashville and Fayetteville.
> Around these parts, swing is a fashionable thing for bourgeoisie white
> L.A. yuppies to do in between sipping expresso at their favorite
> trendy café and driving their Z3s up Pacific Coast Highway. I was
> visiting a mostly white university in Malibu called Pepperdine(where
> Kenneth Starr was supposed to be teaching after the Clinton affair is
> over with but I don't think he is anymore) last year. They were having
> swing lessons with a swing dance afterwards to practise what they've
> learned. I didn't bother dancing and just hung out with friends and
> ate the free food. But I was wondering if anything like this would
> ever happen in a historically black college as part of a cultural
> revival. It would be a great idea for black history month or something
> and they could play all kinds of important black names in swing.
>
> >Maybe "reclaim" is too aggressive a word for it, because I would
> >like to see Blacks and whites find a common ground through the Swing
> >subculture. How beautiful it would be for me to see a Blacks dressed
> >in Zoot Suits strutting into the swing bars, and integrating those
> >dance floors.
>
> (sigh)...What for?
>
> Now that would send chills up my spine! :-) I can see the crowd
> parting as they make their way onto the dance floor, looking at them
> like the almighty himself had just returned!
> --
> (again,sigh)...
>
>
> regards,
> The Devil's Advocate
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> "Your Warrant Is In Question"
> http://surf.to/advocate
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> remove "nojunk" to email
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Wheeljak
Devil's Advocate©) said:
>> If a Black kid wants to follow ska or swing, it's pretty much a given
>>that he won't see too many other Blacks, and that will invariably lead
>>to him being called a "sellout" or an "oreo".
>
>True that you won't see too many blacks. I went to a swing show once
>and saw not a single other black out of hundreds. It could have been
>because I was in Beverly Hills though.
You didn't see "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air"? : )
>I don't think blacks would go
>as far as to call me a sellout if for listening to swing, and
>especially ska as it sounds like reggae on speed.
Depends on what Blacks you are talking about. Seemingly, the brotha
that MAKES these stupid "rules" is somebody who ain't never been
nowhere, and his microscopic world view is the "end-all-be-all" in his
estimation. In his eyes, the only music you listen to if you're down
is Hip-Hop and R&B. If you listen to 70s Funk and Soul, you're down,
but you're way out of date. I remember listening to one of my Earth,
Wind, and Fire albums, and somebody remarked, "That's old!", as if
they were talking about something that was out of fashion, like
Cavaricci trousers, or the word "fresh".
If you listen to 60s Motown, you're still Black, but you're not really
down. That's the music our parents listened to. Old people music.
Now, Swing is from the 30s and 40s. This is totally ALIEN to this
brotha. He ain't never seen nobody Black listen to this stuff, or do
these dances, so in his world, if it's not Black to him, it must be
white. Then, his conclusion is affirmed by movies like "Swing Kids"
and that GAP commercial, where all you see is white kids doin' the
Lindy. So, if you like the Swing Culture, you must be tryin' to be
with the whites, and therefore, are a "sellout".
For some reason, a WHOLE lot of Black people listen to this "ignunt"
brotha, and buy into that fallacy.
>>Blues, without which most of today's music would not exist, is avoided
>>by our young as being primitive and "country".
>
>I actually heard a white talk radio host joking about the fact that
>black kids think of blues the way white kids would think of Barbara
>Streisand or something, just old folks music and nothing that has to
>do with their generation. It's too bad, because the blues are about as
>cultural an African-American(as well as jazz and gospel-all three of
>which are old and established music forms) music as flamenco is a
>Spanish music, or Mariachi a Mexican music.
He's got a point, and so do you. But the preservation of tradition is
not one of our strong suits as a people, as I have mentioned before.
>>Master guitarist Jimi
>>Hendrix held on to the Blues, and genius that he was, he was looked
>>upon as a FOOL by most Blacks.
>
>Think so? I'm really not sure about how he was looked on by other
>blacks.
That same brotha I was talking about before, was alive and well back
then. He said that Rock is a white art form, not suitable for Blacks.
The Blacks that did value Rock derided Jimi for being in a white band.
Of course, that's really funny to me, considering that The Experience
was just a three-piece, thus was 33 1/3% Black.
>>He was playing the music of his elders,
>>and most Blacks called him an Uncle Tom because he spent his time with
>>the only other people his age that were interested in the Blues:
>>white Englishmen.
>
>Really? Hendrix was considered an UncleTom?
Think of how Blacks who spend a lot of time with whites TODAY are
often viewed by many of his brothers and sisters. Now, imagine that
same situation in the turbulent sixties, when Jim Crow was still big
enough to kick the Statue of Liberty's ass. Blacks were mad as Hell,
and for good reason. Martin Luther King had been recently
assassinated. Bobby Kennedy, the one white man that Blacks remotely
trusted, was also killed. Very few Blacks wanted anything to do with
whites. I can understand that attitude in the context of those times,
but in the 90s? No.
>>I know people that grew up in the early Seventies
>>that had to listen to Hendrix in private, so their friends wouldn't
>>laugh at them. I think that's just sad. We are encouraged by our peers
>>to reject our own roots!
>
>Sad, and too often true. Music didn't begin with Erykah Bada and
>Aaliyah, but try telling that to some of these guys walking around
>campus.
Well, Erykah Badu does hearken to the past. She has been strongly
influenced by the old Blues vocalists. From what I hear, she chose the
"Badu" name partly because it reminded her of the sounds of
scat-singing.
>>I think he would be both
>>excited to see it come around again, but also sad to see that there
>>are so few Blacks involved in its revival.
>>Swing was the first true American subculture, long before Hip-Hop.
>
>Was there a subculture associated with ragtime?
Not really. For a subculture to take hold, it needs to be dispersed.
Ragtime came about before recorded music and motion pictures were
common media. Swing took over the large cities of America, largely
through the benefit of the rise of films with sound.
>And although not
>black, the bluegrass/country subculture may date back to this time.
Bluegrass is not a subculture. It is a folk culture, that is, one that
is passed from generation to generation. It is as old as this country,
and it's not too different from its Welsh and English roots.
(I grew up in Kentucky) : )
>>And
>>it was created and fueled by Black people. Remember, Hip-Hop is not a
>>solely Black-made culture; it was started jointly between Blacks and
>>Hispanics.
>
>To a small degree. And to the extent it is true it's mainly true in
>California.
You won't see California coming into play in the evolution of Hip-Hop
until the Eighties. The culture was born in the early Seventies.
>I see rap as entirely growing out of black culture.
That means that you either don't know about, or have ignored, the
contributions of the Puerto Ricans. I suggest you take a look at an
indie film called "Wild Style", the earliest documentary on Hip-Hop
culture. It covers it all; not just the music, but also the grafitti,
and the street dancing. In all three sides of Hip-Hop, the Puerto
Ricans have left an indelible mark.
>It
>came from the cheesy late 70s sythesised funk/R&B.
Not so, DA. Have you ever listened to the very jazzy sounds that
enveloped the socially relevant lyrics of Gil Scott Heron? He did most
of his best work in the 70s.
>Well, a lot of it
>was cheesy in my opinion anyway. Supposely Sugar Hill Gang were the
>first rappers.
They were the first rappers to hit the charts nationwide.
>Now along the way, many NYC Latinos have made
>contributions into hiphop culture, but it's roots are still black.
The roots of Rock are Black, but would you say that the cultures that
developed around Rock music are Black? Surely not.
Rockabilly? White.
The Elvis cult? White.
Heavy Metal? Very white.
Punk? Black and blue, maybe, but not Black.
>>I like the commercial,
>>but it disturbs me that both of the Jitterbuggin' couples are LILY
>>WHITE! I wonder if Digable Planets knew "The Rebirth of Swing" would
>>be such a pale one....
As the astute "theillone" reminded me, it's "The Rebirth of SLICK".
Oh, well. So much for being clever! : )
>It could be that few blacks know that swing has been revived. I mean,
>I don't know if this has caught on anywhere outside of L.A., NYC or
>S.F.
In just about every major city, there is a swing community. I live in
Tampa, and the culture is small here, but it's jumpin'.
>Around these parts, swing is a fashionable thing for bourgeoisie white
>L.A. yuppies to do in between sipping expresso at their favorite
>trendy café and driving their Z3s up Pacific Coast Highway.
Yuppies? Around here, it's mostly college-age folk. too Young to be
Urban Professional.
>I was
>visiting a mostly white university in Malibu called Pepperdine(where
>Kenneth Starr was supposed to be teaching after the Clinton affair is
>over with but I don't think he is anymore) last year. They were having
>swing lessons with a swing dance afterwards to practise what they've
>learned. I didn't bother dancing and just hung out with friends and
>ate the free food. But I was wondering if anything like this would
>ever happen in a historically black college as part of a cultural
>revival. It would be a great idea for black history month or something
>and they could play all kinds of important black names in swing.
Spike Lee is obviously interested in it, as is evident in his
gratuitous Lindy Hop scene in "Malcolm X". He should do some
promotion.
>>Maybe "reclaim" is too aggressive a word for it, because I would
>>like to see Blacks and whites find a common ground through the Swing
>>subculture. How beautiful it would be for me to see a Blacks dressed
>>in Zoot Suits strutting into the swing bars, and integrating those
>>dance floors.
>
>Now that would send chills up my spine! :-) I can see the crowd
>parting as they make their way onto the dance floor, looking at them
>like the almighty himself had just returned!
There's a mental image for the books! : )
Artclemons
In article <360b0454...@news.earthlink.net>, whee...@cyber.tron
(Wheeljak) writes:
>Think of how Blacks who spend a lot of time with whites TODAY are
>often viewed by many of his brothers and sisters. Now, imagine that
>same situation in the turbulent sixties, when Jim Crow was still big
>enough to kick the Statue of Liberty's ass. Blacks were mad as Hell,
>and for good reason. Martin Luther King had been recently
>assassinated. Bobby Kennedy, the one white man that Blacks remotely
>trusted, was also killed. Very few Blacks wanted anything to do with
>whites. I can understand that attitude in the context of those times,
>but in the 90s? No.
Hendrix wasn't called an uncle tom when he began performing, nor when he
became successful. Hendrix's music however was seen at the time as
more white than Black, and his music didn't sell well in the community.
I also note that for all your claims of rejection of whites, a group like the
Righteous Brothers had hits on R&B charts at the beginning of nationalism
as a wide phenomenom. MLK being killed also had little to do with the
sense that what whites wanted the community to do, wasn't what was good
for the community, but rather the experience of watching programs dumped
on the community and implemented with no regard for the community.
Numerous cities had their Afro-American neighborhoods ripped apart to
build freeways and in the name of urban development. They might not have
had much, but churches, neighborhood associations and the like found
their members scattered to the winds so that whites from the suburbs could
get to work quickly, and jobs would end up moving out of cities. Public
housing projects were allowed to deteriorate when there were not large
numbers of drug users or drug dealers, trash was dumped into large
shafts to drop into incinerators, and the police at the time seldom actually
ventured without a large group of other cops. The buildings were beginning
to deteriorate, and the aspiring to be middle class folk began to earn too
much money to remain.
Now there were performers who were tagged uncle toms, some justified,
some others not, including sadly at the time Louis Armstrong by some, but
Hendrix was not among that group. Even then there was a perceived
difference between people who hung around whites and those kissed ass.
-art clemons-