For African-americans, what is the best city to live in ?
Nigel Clarke
present day ?
Finacially and otherwise ?
--
Nigel Clarke
Nework Systems Engineer
ForeverNetworks
ni...@forever-networks.com
Wayne Johnson
<ni...@forever-networks.com> wrote:
>This may be a bit of topic, what is the best city for African Americans ,
>present day ?
>Finacially and otherwise ?
Anywhere it's good for any other American.
Wayne "It's the non-African Americans who have problems with us being
somewhere" Johnson
cia...@hotmail.com
**************************
Late one night, I heard my Mama and Daddy talkin.
Mama say, "Daddy. I'm worried. That boy boogie
all day, and boogie all night. He just boogie all
the time."
And Daddy say, "Mama. Don't worry. That boy got
to boogie. It's in him; and it's got to come out."
-John Lee Hooker, "Born To Boogie"
Coquinegra
cia...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Anywhere it's good for any other American.
>
> Wayne "It's the non-African Americans who have problems with us being
> somewhere" Johnson
> cia...@hotmail.com
>
Silly
i would say a good place is where you don't have to search around
endlessly to find some one to do your hair; where there are AfrAm
professionals and where there are jobs to be had.
Atlanta is supposed to be good,
the DC metropolitan area,
Philadelphia,
Charlotte, perhaps?
anyone else?
--
"Gospel, jazz and R&B or Bachata, merengue y Salsa.
Depends on the time of day. Any questions?"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ksp...@umich.edu
Coquinegra <coqui...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <3990d945...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>,
> cia...@hotmail.com wrote:
>i would say a good place is where you don't have to search around
>endlessly to find some one to do your hair; where there are AfrAm
>professionals and where there are jobs to be had.
And...I'd add, where the populace is politically conscious.
>Atlanta is supposed to be good,
lot of professionals, low political consciousness, low political clout.
>the DC metropolitan area,
lot of professionals, high political consciousness, NO political clout.
>Philadelphia,
???, ???, ???
(not a majority black city though)
>Charlotte, perhaps?
???, ???, ???
>anyone else?
I cast my vote for the one place that has high quantities of all three
variables. The largest black city in North (and South) America. The
place where the weak are killed and eaten.....
The 313.....the D.....DETROIT.
peace
lks
Wayne Johnson
wrote:
>In article <3990d945...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>,
> cia...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Anywhere it's good for any other American.
>>
>> Wayne "It's the non-African Americans who have problems with us being
>> somewhere" Johnson
>> cia...@hotmail.com
>>
>
>Silly
ah caint hep it
>i would say a good place is where you don't have to search around
>endlessly to find some one to do your hair; where there are AfrAm
>professionals and where there are jobs to be had.
I live in Los Angeles, enjoy all three criteria you name, and this
place is the home of Johnnie Cochrane vs. the LAPD. I could write a
long list of reasons why Black folks shouldn't want to live here;
however, I make a good living, I'm sending my kids to premiere
schools, and so on.
Home is where you make it.
99% of discussions about "where is it good for us" is based on
apprehension about not being accepted by non-Black folks, or being
mistreated (or our families mistreated) by racists.
It's a feeling that's hard to shake, but we may as well go on and get
rid of the attitude.
I'm a manager in a large, nationally based information technology
company. If my company wanted me to take over some project, should my
main concern be about how I am going to be accepted, anywhere in
America?
Wayne "By that reasoning, I shouldn't be living in Los Angeles"
Rose 'Bams' Cooper
ksp...@umich.edu wrote:
[...]
>I cast my vote for the one place that has high quantities of all three
>variables. The largest black city in North (and South) America. The
>place where the weak are killed and eaten.....
>
>The 313.....the D.....DETROIT.
oh lord, no. Detroit is a ghost town, in every sense of the word. And
I say that with pain in my heart--because My People are still there.
I'm visiting on Saturday for my sister's 50th birthday, and will do my
damndest to get outta town before nightfall.
/bams (Atlanta-bound)
ksp...@umich.edu
Based on the three variables I noted....black professionals, political
clout, and political consciousness, no other city compares. Atlanta has a
better night life...better clubs, better bars, etc. But Atlanta's
black political clout is low (as a result of their city-county
relationship), and their political consciousness is even lower (as a
result of their cosmopolitan community--i've yet to meet a professional in
atlanta actually FROM atlanta). Detroit is it.
peace
lks
Coquinegra
cia...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I'm a manager in a large, nationally based information technology
> company. If my company wanted me to take over some project, should my
> main concern be about how I am going to be accepted, anywhere in
> America?
Did anyone say main? But, since we never agree on anything
these days, i'll just say things are often not the way they
SHOULD be and leave it at that.
Coquinegra
Good point. I shouldn't have left it out.
> >Atlanta is supposed to be good,
>
> lot of professionals, low political consciousness, low political
clout.
>
> >the DC metropolitan area,
>
> lot of professionals, high political consciousness, NO political
clout.
You're wrong there. While DC is a difficult place, politically, the
suburbs are not.
>
> >Philadelphia,
>
> ???, ???, ???
> (not a majority black city though)
I don't think anyone said for a town to be good for us, it has to
be majority Black. As a matter of fact, I"d say it must NOT
be majority Black. Once it gets to that, middle class wage-earners
are SURE not to live there!
Christopher Morton
wrote:
>Wayne "By that reasoning, I shouldn't be living in Los Angeles"
>Johnson
By any sort of reasoning NOBODY should be living in Los Angeles.
---
Gun control, the theory that Black people will be
better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.
Check out:
http://extra.newsguy.com/~cmorton
Michael Rimpel
<ni...@forever-networks.com> wrote:
>This may be a bit of topic, what is the best city for African Americans ,
>present day ?
>Finacially and otherwise ?
>
Even though its been getting some bad press lately (rightly so) New
York is still the best city to live in. I know others will say
different and there are many cities listed in this thread, the only
city that really matters is New York. Be ready for sticker shock at
the cost of housing but there is a very large Black population will
all the things Black people need to survive ( perverted barbers).
Michael Rimpel
MRimpel1 at Earthlink.net
Rose 'Bams' Cooper
ksp...@umich.edu wrote:
>Based on the three variables I noted....black professionals, political
>clout, and political consciousness, no other city compares. Atlanta has a
>better night life...better clubs, better bars, etc. But Atlanta's
>black political clout is low
Perhaps--but all the clout in the world is worth naught if the city
itself is dead. Every time I go back home, I see two more
burnt-out/cracked out houses. Damn shame when there are more vacant
lots on a street than there are actual homes.
>(as a result of their city-county
>relationship), and their political consciousness is even lower (as a
>result of their cosmopolitan community--i've yet to meet a professional in
>atlanta actually FROM atlanta).
I'm not sure what that has to do anything, but I'd further venture to
say that Detroit's "political consciousness" is all based on trying to
"hold on" *way* more than its trying to move forward. Engler is doing
his damndest to see that Detroit is neutered, and Detroit's mayor
(Archer, right?) faces an uphill struggle in that sense.
>Detroit is it.
Sorry, I still disagree. Atlanta is alive and thriving, and if it isn't
"politically Black" (which I can't say one way or the other), that still
doesn't discount it from being a good city for a Black person to live
in. Detroit is a ghost town, and many of the people in it are zombies.
/bams (Livernois & Fenkell)
KSG
>Even though its been getting some bad press lately (rightly so)
New
>York is still the best city to live in. I know others will say
>different and there are many cities listed in this thread, the
only
>city that really matters is New York. Be ready for sticker
shock at
>the cost of housing but there is a very large Black population
will
>all the things Black people need to survive ( perverted
barbers).
NY, while a not a bad place has the misfortune of being on the
East Coast. The best city for Blacks (and all other ethnicities
for that matter) will be on the West Coast. If you like NY then
try SF. Weather is one of the few things that really matters to
me. It's something that can't be bought, and it is something I
enjoy and appreciate.
I've enjoyed my time in NY, but I was disappointed by the
weather and the food. NY pizza is a disgrace compared to fine
Chicago pizza. I was surprised though by the pleasantness of
the people.
With respect to being a Black person. I need a critical mass of
Blacks around ME, but I don't need all 100,000 Blacks in DC.
For the city and county I just require fair-minded sane people
and I should get by fine.
My choice for best city is San Francisco. If you're married and
raising a family then move San Diego towards the top of the
list, but still probably below SF.
KSG
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
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Dwayne Conyers
Coquinegra
KSG <kgatlin...@cs.ucsd.edu.invalid> wrote:
> NY, while a not a bad place has the misfortune of being on the
> East Coast. The best city for Blacks (and all other ethnicities
> for that matter) will be on the West Coast.
>
The best cities are on the West Coast?
What's wrong with the East Coast? Just curious....
We could argue NY v. Chicago pizza forever, so I just won't go there.
Christopher Morton
<kgatlin...@cs.ucsd.edu.invalid> wrote:
>I've enjoyed my time in NY, but I was disappointed by the
>weather and the food. NY pizza is a disgrace compared to fine
>Chicago pizza. I was surprised though by the pleasantness of
>the people.
Chicago does have good pizza... or it did in '86 when I moved.
As to the "pleasantness" of the people, I suggest you stay out of
Marquette Park and Bridgeport. For that matter, Black people
(including those on the city council) have some rather interesting
things to say about Jews.
You can keep Chicago.
KSG
>In article <1f1499dc...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com>,
> KSG <kgatlin...@cs.ucsd.edu.invalid> wrote:
>
>> NY, while a not a bad place has the misfortune of being on the
>> East Coast. The best city for Blacks (and all other
ethnicities
>> for that matter) will be on the West Coast.
>>
>
>The best cities are on the West Coast?
>What's wrong with the East Coast? Just curious....
My main complaint with the East Coast is the weather. I lived
in Illinois as a child and while I liked the snow, I detested
the cold.
I've since moved to California and have found the weather to my
liking, especially since I live on the coast. You have moderate
seasons and for the most part weather is a non-issue.
I've heard some Easterners complain that they miss the seasons.
Well I'm glad someone appreciates the 90+ humid summers and
freezing cold winters. We need someone to live out there, I
just don't want it to be me.
OTOH my experience with the actual people on the East Coast has
been excellent. I guess I expected a lot of rude people, but
found people to be as nice as those on the West Coast -- if not
nicer.
KSG
>On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:40:35 CST, KSG
><kgatlin...@cs.ucsd.edu.invalid> wrote:
>
>>I've enjoyed my time in NY, but I was disappointed by the
>>weather and the food. NY pizza is a disgrace compared to fine
>>Chicago pizza. I was surprised though by the pleasantness of
>>the people.
>
>Chicago does have good pizza... or it did in '86 when I moved.
>
>As to the "pleasantness" of the people, I suggest you stay out
of
>Marquette Park and Bridgeport. For that matter, Black people
>(including those on the city council) have some rather
interesting
>things to say about Jews.
>
>You can keep Chicago.
My apologies for the ambiguity. I meant that I was surprised by
the pleasantness of the NY people. Most of my interaction with
Chicagoans has been outside of Chicago and in small doses.
Jonas Simbacca
KSG <kgatlin...@cs.ucsd.edu.invalid> wrote:
> Coquinegra <coqui...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >In article <1f1499dc...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com>,
> > KSG <kgatlin...@cs.ucsd.edu.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> NY, while a not a bad place has the misfortune of being on the
> >> East Coast. The best city for Blacks (and all other
> ethnicities
> >> for that matter) will be on the West Coast.
> >>
> >
> >The best cities are on the West Coast?
> >What's wrong with the East Coast? Just curious....
>
> OTOH my experience with the actual people on the East Coast has
> been excellent. I guess I expected a lot of rude people, but
> found people to be as nice as those on the West Coast -- if not
> nicer.
As someone who has lived on both coasts and everywhere in-between,
the folks on the West coast are MUCH nicer (even though there is a
large WAR contingent out there). As to where the best city is for
blacks to move to, though, Atlanta and Memphis are tops. The south is
turning black (whites are slowly migrating out and blacks are slowly
migrating in), and there will be real opportunities for black people
there as they begin to take over the power structure. Also, the
weather is milder than what you'll find further North.
DarkStar
Any city with a good educational system.
---
"Corporatized or idealized, hip-hop is the American Dream and the African
American Nightmare rolled into one fat-ass blunt."
Charles Aaron Spin (Nov.1998)
Ed Brown - darks...@home.net
http://www.charm.net/~darkstar
PubKey http://www.charm.net/~darkstar/public_key.html
Wayne Johnson
<chr...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:00:38 CST, cia...@hotmail.com (Wayne Johnson)
>wrote:
>
>>Wayne "By that reasoning, I shouldn't be living in Los Angeles"
>>Johnson
>
>By any sort of reasoning NOBODY should be living in Los Angeles.
How many Black people have been elected mayor in your city?
Wayne "Just curious" Johnson
Wayne Johnson
wrote:
>In article <3993780...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>,
> cia...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> I'm a manager in a large, nationally based information technology
>> company. If my company wanted me to take over some project, should my
>> main concern be about how I am going to be accepted, anywhere in
>> America?
>
>Did anyone say main?
Someone said, "For African-americans, what is the best city to live
in?", so I guess that was their main concern.
What do you think their main concern was?
"Well, the schools are good, but not for African Americans.
"Well, the neighborhoods are nice, but not for African Americans."
"Well, the cultural life is interesting, but not for African
Americans."
"Well, the crime rate is low, but not for African Americans."
What do YOU think is the prime criteria for grading a city's value to
African Americans?
If the value of a city to African Americans is not your Main Concern,
what is?
Further, once you name your main concern, does this Main Concern have
anything to do with being African American?
If it doesn't, what is the relevance of the question in the thread
title?
>But, since we never agree on anything
>these days, i'll just say things are often not the way they
>SHOULD be and leave it at that.
I hope so.
Wayne "It's a very safe thing to say" Johnson
Wayne Johnson
wrote:
>In article <1f1499dc...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com>,
> KSG <kgatlin...@cs.ucsd.edu.invalid> wrote:
>
>> NY, while a not a bad place has the misfortune of being on the
>> East Coast. The best city for Blacks (and all other ethnicities
>> for that matter) will be on the West Coast.
>>
>
>The best cities are on the West Coast?
Of course.
>What's wrong with the East Coast?
How much time do we have?
>Just curious....
yeah right
>We could argue NY v. Chicago pizza forever, so I just won't go there.
You sure are playing it safe lately.
Wayne "I can get both kinds in Malibu...after surfing, in November"
Rich Thompson
> I live in Los Angeles, enjoy all three criteria you name, and this
> place is the home of Johnnie Cochrane vs. the LAPD. I could write a
> long list of reasons why Black folks shouldn't want to live here;
> however, I make a good living, I'm sending my kids to premiere
> schools, and so on.
Understandable, but there ARE places you'd probably find less hospitable-
for any of a number of reasons. Of which overt racism is only one.
A friend lived in Burlington Vermont for a number of years, didn't
experience any overt racism. But one gets a little tired of not seeing
ANY faces that look like one, and the hair thing was a BIG issue for her.
I'd also say that Montreal, Canada, is not a place for a Black person to
live if they want to succeed. And we can just ask Kenny Crudup about
Boston.
--
Rich Thompson, Ph.D.
Clinical Psychologist, P-Funk fan, "Stats Guy"
"Don't mess with Mother Nature."
-Koko Taylor
Coquinegra
SO AM I!!!
But the jobless rate is WAY to high, and
Puerto Ricans are "shade-ists" and none too
fond of us, as a rule, as quiet as it's kept.
in 10 years, when they realize how Black they
are, it will be better. Until then, brush
up on your Spanish :-)
--
"Gospel, jazz and R&B or Bachata, merengue y Salsa.
Depends on the time of day. Any questions?"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Rich Thompson
Burgeoning Black population, you can afford to own your own house.
--
Rich Thompson, Ph.D.
Clinical Psychologist, P-Funk fan, "Stats Guy"
"Don't mess with Mother Nature."
-Koko Taylor
Art Clemons
<darks...@home.net> writes:
>Any city with a good educational system.
Uh Ed, are you going to move to the country, there isn't a single big city with
such a thing for African-Americans, and frankly there aren't many sububan
schools good for middle class African heritage folks either.
I guess Ed is about to go singing the male part of the Green Acres' themesong.
-art clemons-
bruce_...@my-deja.com
> I cast my vote for the one place that has high quantities of all three
> variables. The largest black city in North (and South) America. The
> place where the weak are killed and eaten.....
>
> The 313.....the D.....DETROIT.
>
> peace
> lks
No self respecting Chicagoan would deign to consume the fallen weak,
lest we partake of their wimpy qualities. Their remains are processed
and sold to the contractors who fill potholes, of which we have many.
Bruce A. Dixon
bruce_...@my-deja.com
chr...@ameritech.net wrote:
> As to the "pleasantness" of the people, I suggest you stay out of
> Marquette Park and Bridgeport. For that matter, Black people
> (including those on the city council) have some rather interesting
> things to say about Jews.
Yr information may be dated. Bridgeport is now majority Mexican, tho
just barely, and Marquette Park is about a third black, a third white
and another third Latino, as the creeping lines of residential
segregration move toward each other.
All that considered, I still love Chicago. They never let you forget
yrself for long here.
Christopher Morton
wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:00:19 CST, Christopher Morton
><chr...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:00:38 CST, cia...@hotmail.com (Wayne Johnson)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Wayne "By that reasoning, I shouldn't be living in Los Angeles"
>>>Johnson
>>
>>By any sort of reasoning NOBODY should be living in Los Angeles.
>
>How many Black people have been elected mayor in your city?
>
>Wayne "Just curious" Johnson
>cia...@hotmail.com
How many Black mayors have been elected in Washington, DC?
What's a better city for Black people?
Washington, DC or Rocky River, OH?
I drive around Rocky River all hours of the day and night and see
quite a few Black people other than myself. I've been stopped once
each for having a burned out headlight and expired (by a day) tags
(with the replacements on the seat beside me). Nobody beat me.
Nobody shot me. Nobody called me a "nigger". Nobody framed me for a
crime I didn't commit. I've never seen another Black person interact
with the police for ANY reason, justified or otherwise.
Where do you think Amadou Diallo's mother wishes he had lived?
As for Cleveland, it's had two Black mayors. Three, if you count City
Council president George Forbes who virtually ran the city when
Voinovich was mayor.
How many has LA had?
The Devil's Advocate©
<mice_el...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have heard good things about Las Vegas, actually.
:-0
You've gotta be joking! Las Vegas...sheesh, maybe lots of
opportunities for those that like working in casinos.
>Burgeoning Black population,
Everybody is going to black there soon. Not because of migration but
because it's 115 friggin' degrees everyday.
>you can afford to own your own house.
But look where your at, in the middle of nowhere with casinos
substituting for any kind of culture or real nightlife. I don't think
Vegas is a good place for anyone to live, certainly not black people.
It's just a big tourist trap with some housing developments built up
around it.
--
regards,
The Devil's Advocate
ICQ 82541559
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"listen to both sides, the truth
usually falls in the middle"
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Jonas Simbacca
I used to live in Las Vegas. Don't believe it. Most blacks live in
North Las Vegas which is the poor area (alot like Ingelwood, CA in
terms of looks), and they have just about zero clout out there. The
town is pretty-much run by Italians and Mormons. If you want to move
out to the desert, though, Las Vegas is it. I'd recommend it 100 times
over before I'd recommend any place in Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, or E.
California. Housing is affordable out there, but the problem is that
Las Vegas is quickly becoming Los Angeles East. All that cheap housing
comes from rapid expansion and ever-increasing urban sprawl.
Heather Aston
> A friend lived in Burlington Vermont for a number of years, didn't
> experience any overt racism. But one gets a little tired of not seeing
> ANY faces that look like one, and the hair thing was a BIG issue for her.
>
> I'd also say that Montreal, Canada, is not a place for a Black person to
> live if they want to succeed. And we can just ask Kenny Crudup about
> Boston.
That's odd. My mother lived and worked in Montreal for years before I was
born. She found it a rather pleasant experience, even the weather. As for
Boston, I've asked this question before and not gotten a straight answer.
Why is Boston considered racist, but not Philadelphia, Chicago, New York,
or any other city? What I mean is this: Many black people, when Boston is
mentioned, will say "Oh, Boston is racist, I don't want to live there,
etc." But the racist stuff that goes on in Boston (housing and employment
discrimination, etc.) also goes on in pretty much any large U.S. city. But
I've never heard people say "Oh, Philadelphia/Chicago/New York is too
racist, I couldn't live there." Why is that? Now, I personally wouldn't
live in Boston, not now. I went to school there, and found it okay. It is a
good place to be a student. But I went back recently, and is seemed
so...provincial and puritanical. It's as if the ghosts of all those dead
white men who settled it are still hanging around.
Heather Aston
>
> In article <3t9hps4eucmm6rrlh...@4ax.com>, DarkStar
> <darks...@home.net> writes:
>
> >Any city with a good educational system.
>
> Uh Ed, are you going to move to the country, there isn't a single big city with
> such a thing for African-Americans, and frankly there aren't many sububan
> schools good for middle class African heritage folks either.
Ed, if you don't mind living in the suburbs, how about Morris County, NJ?
Our
school system is good for middle class African heritage folks. I can attest
to this myself--my brother and I, as well as numerous friends were well
served by the public schools here. If you are certain you want to live in a
city, well I can't help you there.
Rich Thompson
Heather Aston <has...@drew.edu> wrote:
> That's odd. My mother lived and worked in Montreal for years before I
> was born. She found it a rather pleasant experience, even the weather.
(shrug).
How long ago was this?
I don't know, but ANY of my Black friends and acquaintances are getting
the hell out of Dodge there. The general sense is that you can get by,
and yes there are a lot of neat stuff to do and whatnot, but you will NOT
get promoted in whatever your career. An overgeneralization, obviously,
but represents the experience of a lot of people I know there. And things
have gotten worse recently on the racism tip, with "ethnics" being blamed
for the continued failure to form an independent country.
> As for Boston, I've asked this question before and not gotten a
> straight answer.
> Why is Boston considered racist, but not Philadelphia, Chicago, New
> York, or any other city?
My sense from Kenny was not so much about the racism, but about the
general lack of a Black professional class (of women) with which to
interact. but that was a while ago and memory may be faulty.
My main point to wayne was that racism is only one factor that decides
what's a good city to live in, from what people have told me and what
I've seen.
> good place to be a student. But I went back recently, and is seemed
> so...provincial and puritanical. It's as if the ghosts of all those
> dead white men who settled it are still hanging around.
This wouldn't make it a bad place to live?
--
Rich Thompson, Ph.D.
Clinical Psychologist, P-Funk fan, "Stats Guy"
"Don't mess with Mother Nature."
-Koko Taylor
Art Clemons
Advocate©" <REMOVE-THI...@excite.com> writes:
>But look where your at, in the middle of nowhere with casinos
>substituting for any kind of culture or real nightlife. I don't think
>Vegas is a good place for anyone to live, certainly not black people.
>It's just a big tourist trap with some housing developments built up
>around it.
But some folks like the lifestyle, and there are other things in Vegas besides
gambling. It's not my kind of place, but cheap housing, relatively low cost
living expenses, plenty of fishing and other outdoor activities and for some
folks it's heaven. That being said, Las Vegas wasn't always so hospitable to
folks with dark skin.
-art clemons-
Coquinegra
shoeg...@excite.com wrote:
> Everybody is going to black there soon. Not because of migration but
> because it's 115 friggin' degrees everyday.
Best line of the month!
--
"Gospel, jazz and R&B or Bachata, merengue y Salsa.
Depends on the time of day. Any questions?"
The Devil's Advocate©
<jonas_s...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>I used to live in Las Vegas. Don't believe it. Most blacks live in
>North Las Vegas which is the poor area (alot like Ingelwood, CA in
>terms of looks), and they have just about zero clout out there.
I've heard that blacks are sort of "funneled" to N. Vegas by real
estate agents. Yes, a pretty undesirable part of town, in a highly
undesirable city in a highly undesirable state. Pity.
>The
>town is pretty-much run by Italians and Mormons. If you want to move
>out to the desert, though, Las Vegas is it. I'd recommend it 100 times
>over before I'd recommend any place in Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, or E.
>California.
I'd choose Palmdale, California over Vegas. At least you're closer to
L.A.
>Housing is affordable out there, but the problem is that
>Las Vegas is quickly becoming Los Angeles East. All that cheap housing
>comes from rapid expansion and ever-increasing urban sprawl.
A few decades down the line, they're going to find themselves in big
trouble as far as getting around town. They are going to become
another L.A., yet don't have L.A.'s freeway infrastructure.
Jonas Simbacca
>
> But look where your at, in the middle of nowhere with casinos
> substituting for any kind of culture or real nightlife.
L.A. and Phoenix are only a few hours away.
> I don't think
> Vegas is a good place for anyone to live, certainly not black people.
> It's just a big tourist trap with some housing developments built up
> around it.
Okay, that's far enough. Las Vegas may not be the ideal city for
blacks to move to, but it's still a damn fine city. I hope to
move back there one of these days. There are plenty of actual homes in
Vegas (not just housing developments), and to dismiss Las Vegas just
because it's economy is tourist-driven is wrong. If that was the case,
you'd have to dismiss the damn-near the entire State of Florida and New
Orleans (although I wouldn't live in New Orleans just on the fact that
I find it nuts to live some place where the water is so much higher
than the land). BTW 115 in Vegas is alot nicer than 95 degrees in the
south.
Heather Aston
>
> In article <399A9B7C...@drew.edu>,
> Heather Aston <has...@drew.edu> wrote:
>
> > That's odd. My mother lived and worked in Montreal for years before I
> > was born. She found it a rather pleasant experience, even the weather.
>
> (shrug).
>
> How long ago was this?
She lived there from 1964-1973. As you noted, it may be that things have
gotten worse recently.
> but represents the experience of a lot of people I know there. And things
> have gotten worse recently on the racism tip, with "ethnics" being blamed
> for the continued failure to form an independent country.
What "ethnics" are these? I'm not that familiar with Montreal, what do they
have to do with the independent country?
> My sense from Kenny was not so much about the racism, but about the
> general lack of a Black professional class (of women) with which to
> interact. but that was a while ago and memory may be faulty.
I see. I didn't notice that myself, but that's because I was a student, and
other students were my peer group, not working people. Not that students
didn't work, but you understand what I mean.
> > good place to be a student. But I went back recently, and is seemed
> > so...provincial and puritanical. It's as if the ghosts of all those
> > dead white men who settled it are still hanging around.
>
> This wouldn't make it a bad place to live?
Well, yes, which is why I wouldn't live there now. But I was curious about
why, when Boston is mentioned, the first thing out of some people mouths is
about how racist Boston is. When Philadelphia, NYC, Chicago, etc. are also
racist. But I've never heard "Philadelphia is so racist" as the first
comment from someone about that city.
The Devil's Advocate©
<jonas_s...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Okay, that's far enough. Las Vegas may not be the ideal city for
>blacks to move to, but it's still a damn fine city.
Now I've heard everything. I don't even consider Vegas to be a real
city. It still feels like an experiment. Yes, now Vegas is a damned
fine city to me too when I'm coming up on the blackjack table, but I
for one can't see the place as livable.
> I hope to
>move back there one of these days. There are plenty of actual homes in
>Vegas (not just housing developments), and to dismiss Las Vegas just
>because it's economy is tourist-driven is wrong. If that was the case,
>you'd have to dismiss the damn-near the entire State of Florida and New
>Orleans (although I wouldn't live in New Orleans just on the fact that
>I find it nuts to live some place where the water is so much higher
>than the land).
But at least in New Orleans, there's some sense of culture and
history, and that's what draws people. The best thing about Vegas(if
you're not into gambling maybe) is the natural wonders nearby like the
grand canyon, Colorado R., and mountains.
>BTW 115 in Vegas is alot nicer than 95 degrees in the
>south.
Probably true, but at least in the south, the low temp at night
actually goes -beneath- 95. I couldn't believe it one night there that
it was almost midnight and still in the 90s. I remember stepping out
of the airport at Vegas one summer and it just felt like my eyeballs
were drying out and my lips were cracking. With all that hot, dry wind
there, you can dyhydrate pretty quick if you aren't constantly
drinking something.
But I guess some like that kind of stuff, better that they be living
there than crowding up L.A.
Rich Thompson
Heather Aston <has...@drew.edu> wrote:
To this by me:
> > but represents the experience of a lot of people I know there. And
things
> > have gotten worse recently on the racism tip, with "ethnics" being
blamed
> > for the continued failure to form an independent country.
>
> What "ethnics" are these? I'm not that familiar with Montreal, what
> do they have to do with the independent country?
Any non-white (and this includes Jewish people) is an "ethnic". In
essense French-Canadians (well, many of them) want to make quebec a
country independent of Canada, and referendums are held every few years
to vote on this. They are always defeated, and this defeat is usually
blamed on the "inordinate" number of "ethnics"- who are thought of as
usually voting against independence. They primarily do tend to vote
against it, because, in terms of racism, as bad as things are sometimes
in Canada, it would be much worse in an independent quebec.
--
Rich Thompson, Ph.D.
Clinical Psychologist, P-Funk fan, "Stats Guy"
"Don't mess with Mother Nature."
-Koko Taylor
Jonas Simbacca
shoeg...@excite.com wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:33:09 CST, Jonas Simbacca
> <jonas_s...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >Okay, that's far enough. Las Vegas may not be the ideal city for
> >blacks to move to, but it's still a damn fine city.
>
> Now I've heard everything. I don't even consider Vegas to be a real
> city. It still feels like an experiment.
You've never lived there, so how can you say that?
>Yes, now Vegas is a damned
> fine city to me too when I'm coming up on the blackjack table, but I
> for one can't see the place as livable.
>
> > I hope to
> >move back there one of these days. There are plenty of actual homes
in
> >Vegas (not just housing developments), and to dismiss Las Vegas just
> >because it's economy is tourist-driven is wrong. If that was the
case,
> >you'd have to dismiss the damn-near the entire State of Florida and
New
> >Orleans (although I wouldn't live in New Orleans just on the fact
that
> >I find it nuts to live some place where the water is so much higher
> >than the land).
>
> But at least in New Orleans, there's some sense of culture and
> history, and that's what draws people.
Well, of course, because New Orleans has been around for like 200 years
longer than Las Vegas! That's like saying New Orleans is nothing but a
bunch of bars in the French Quarter and is nothing compared to Milan,
Italy because Milan has a real history.
>The best thing about Vegas(if
> you're not into gambling maybe) is the natural wonders nearby like the
> grand canyon, Colorado R., and mountains.
>
> >BTW 115 in Vegas is alot nicer than 95 degrees in the
> >south.
>
> Probably true, but at least in the south, the low temp at night
> actually goes -beneath- 95. I couldn't believe it one night there that
> it was almost midnight and still in the 90s.
That's not very often. Usually, it dips down into the 70s (or cooler)
at night.
>I remember stepping out
> of the airport at Vegas one summer and it just felt like my eyeballs
> were drying out and my lips were cracking. With all that hot, dry wind
> there, you can dyhydrate pretty quick if you aren't constantly
> drinking something.
>
That's a bit of an exaggeration. People not used to the desert think
that if they're not sweating, then everything is okay and end up
getting heat stroke. Dehydration isn't that quick. You can play
tennis for hours during the day out there and not need a drink.
> But I guess some like that kind of stuff, better that they be living
> there than crowding up L.A.
Alot of people have left (and are leaving) L.A. for Vegas.
ver...@my-deja.com
>
> Now I've heard everything. I don't even consider Vegas to be a real
> city. It still feels like an experiment. Yes, now Vegas is a damned
> fine city to me too when I'm coming up on the blackjack table, but I
> for one can't see the place as livable.
I don't think there is an ideal place for black people. We're
individuals, with different likes or dislikes. I live in NYC, and will
not leave metro NYC for the forseeable future. (although I will move
to Jersey City, but that's apart of the metro area).
My cousin lives in Las Vegas, loves it, and has tried to talk some of
my relatives into going.
> >
> But at least in New Orleans, there's some sense of culture and
> history, and that's what draws people. The best thing about Vegas(if
> you're not into gambling maybe) is the natural wonders nearby like the
> grand canyon, Colorado R., and mountains.
Culture merely means away of life. Culture doesn't pay ones bills,
rent, mortgage, etc. I love the area where I curently live in Queens
culturally. However, the neighborhood is going down, down, down, and I
no longer want to stay here. I am moving at the end of the year.
>
> Probably true, but at least in the south, the low temp at night
> actually goes -beneath- 95. I couldn't believe it one night there that
> it was almost midnight and still in the 90s. I remember stepping out
> of the airport at Vegas one summer and it just felt like my eyeballs
> were drying out and my lips were cracking. With all that hot, dry wind
> there, you can dyhydrate pretty quick if you aren't constantly
> drinking something.
>
> But I guess some like that kind of stuff, better that they be living
> there than crowding up L.A.
Different strokes for different folks. I too wouldn't live in Las
Vegas, but that doesn't mean it's hell just because I am not interested.
>
> --
>
> regards,
> The Devil's Advocate
> ICQ 82541559
>
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> "listen to both sides, the truth
> usually falls in the middle"
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>
>
ver...@my-deja.com
cia...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:48:38 CST, Coquinegra <coqui...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <1f1499dc...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com>,
> > KSG <kgatlin...@cs.ucsd.edu.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> NY, while a not a bad place has the misfortune of being on the
> >> East Coast. The best city for Blacks (and all other ethnicities
> >> for that matter) will be on the West Coast.
> >>
> >
> >The best cities are on the West Coast?
>
> Of course.
>
A matter of opinion. NY is the best city for me.
ver...@my-deja.com
artcl...@aol.com (Art Clemons) wrote:
> In article <3t9hps4eucmm6rrlh...@4ax.com>, DarkStar
> <darks...@home.net> writes:
>
> >Any city with a good educational system.
>
> Uh Ed, are you going to move to the country, there isn't a single big
city with
> such a thing for African-Americans, and frankly there aren't many
sububan
> schools good for middle class African heritage folks either.
>
themesong.
There are magnet public schools and cities, and there are excellent
private schools.
> -art clemons-
ver...@my-deja.com
Coquinegra <coqui...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <3990d945...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>,
> cia...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Anywhere it's good for any other American.
> >
> > Wayne "It's the non-African Americans who have problems with us
being
> > somewhere" Johnson
> > cia...@hotmail.com
> >
>
> Silly
>
> i would say a good place is where you don't have to search around
> endlessly to find some one to do your hair; where there are AfrAm
> professionals and where there are jobs to be had.
I am a man, and anyone can cut my hair.
>
> Atlanta is supposed to be good,
> the DC metropolitan area,
> Philadelphia,
> Charlotte, perhaps?
Not everyone likes living in the South. There is no one good city for
African Americans, I agree with Wayne's assetment. And it all depends
on what you want culturally, your line of work, your housing
expectations, etc.
>
> anyone else?
>
> --
> "Gospel, jazz and R&B or Bachata, merengue y Salsa.
> Depends on the time of day. Any questions?"
>
ver...@my-deja.com
Jonas Simbacca <jonas_s...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> As someone who has lived on both coasts and everywhere in-between,
> the folks on the West coast are MUCH nicer (even though there is a
> large WAR contingent out there). As to where the best city is for
> blacks to move to, though, Atlanta and Memphis are tops. The south is
> turning black (whites are slowly migrating out and blacks are slowly
> migrating in), and there will be real opportunities for black people
> there as they begin to take over the power structure. Also, the
> weather is milder than what you'll find further North.
I personally like to have seasons, and I do enjoy snow and cold. I
love metro NYC. I love the ethnic and linguistic diversity, and it's
interesting to be able to use the languages I have studied . Spanish,
French, and Russian. Unless I moved to Florida or texas that would be
hard to do in the South.
And actually, I think most of the Blacks returning to the South are
retirees who were born there. I was born in NYC, and I am a native New
Yorker.
A good number of my friends are here, some from university days others
from after. I would have to rebuild myself socially if I left NYC.
Besides, I work in banking ,and metro NYC is the best place for that.
Art Clemons
>There are magnet public schools and cities, and there are excellent
>private schools.
You will take note of what Ed wrote, and what I responded to. Ed said "Any
city with a good educational system." Now which big cities can you name with
good public education for ALL student, or even most African-American students.
It's sure not NYC or anyplace else I've been lately. Yes, there are magnet
schools and private schools, but MOST students don't get to attend said
schools, or they wouldn't stand out so much. Even some charter schools work
for a while, but they're not guaranteed to work, and there is usually politics
associated with the granting of a charter. Thus in Philadelphia, a certain
Baptist Minister ( former NFL player) publicly endorsed GW Bush, and one likely
reason is that it enhances the likelihood the charter school he dreams of will
be granted a charter. Sorry, but I want to see public schools work for
African-American youth as well as private elite schools work for white youth.
-art clemons-
Art Clemons
>I am a man, and anyone can cut my hair.
Well that tells me something about you. I could guess that you shave your head,
or you've never experienced all of the barbers/cosmetologists who aren't really
familiar with African-American. One of the few professions that even oreo
African-Americans seem to avoid finding white professionals is hair care. What
are you saying?
-art clemons-
The Devil's Advocate©
>And actually, I think most of the Blacks returning to the South are
>retirees who were born there. I was born in NYC, and I am a native New
>Yorker.
My family moved to the South from L.A. a few years ago. I hated it and
came back to la la land. I lived both in Nashville and Atlanta. My
father doesn't care for it although he likes Florida, my mother
tolerates it, as long as she's working and has a roof over her head
she doesn't complain about much. My sister doens't know much different
since she moved there when she was in elementary school.
ver...@my-deja.com
artcl...@aol.com (Art Clemons) wrote:
> In article <8njt4p$ca4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, ver...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> >I am a man, and anyone can cut my hair.
>
> Well that tells me something about you. I could guess that you shave
your head,
Yes. Well, the non black barbers do just a good a job as the black
ones, at least in this area.
One of the few professions that even oreo
> African-Americans seem to avoid finding white professionals is hair
care. What
> are you saying?
What determines where someone was oreo.
I basically said is that there is no one city which is good for black
people, or any other people. It all depends on what an individual
person is looking for in terms of work, education, climate, etc.
Haircare is and never has been, nor will it ever be, a consideration.
> -art clemons-
Tha' Duke
<kgatlin...@cs.ucsd.edu.invalid> had written this in such a way
as to not even remotely offend anyone...
>mrim...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net (Michael Rimpel) wrote:
>
>>Even though its been getting some bad press lately (rightly so)
>New
>>York is still the best city to live in. I know others will say
>>different and there are many cities listed in this thread, the
>only
>>city that really matters is New York. Be ready for sticker
>shock at
>>the cost of housing but there is a very large Black population
>will
>>all the things Black people need to survive ( perverted
>barbers).
>NY, while a not a bad place has the misfortune of being on the
>East Coast. The best city for Blacks (and all other ethnicities
>for that matter) will be on the West Coast. If you like NY then
>try SF. Weather is one of the few things that really matters to
>me. It's something that can't be bought, and it is something I
>enjoy and appreciate.
>
>I've enjoyed my time in NY, but I was disappointed by the
>weather and the food. NY pizza is a disgrace compared to fine
>Chicago pizza. I was surprised though by the pleasantness of
>the people.
>
>With respect to being a Black person. I need a critical mass of
>Blacks around ME, but I don't need all 100,000 Blacks in DC.
>For the city and county I just require fair-minded sane people
>and I should get by fine.
>
>My choice for best city is San Francisco. If you're married and
>raising a family then move San Diego towards the top of the
>list, but still probably below SF.
>
The areas of San Diego, and (to the north) Orange County are not the
most warm and friendly places politically for black folks, unless
you're a die-hard politically active conservative with cash.
Surprisingly, one of the better places on the west coast is a little
inland from SF. Sacramento, being the state's capital, has much in
the way of diversity, politically aware black folks, and is pretty
close to everything (S.F., aka "The City", mountains, Lake Tahoe,
Reno), and unlike San Diego or LA, you don't have to auction your
kidney on EBay to live there. The police are professional (and don't
take s*%t from many folks), a reasonable number of black faces reside,
and a stable black middle class exists, and is growing due to the
booming IT and biotech scene there.
Duke
SCAA-M: Where an attribution line is a dangerous thing.
Wayne Johnson
<chr...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:13:28 CST, cia...@hotmail.com (Wayne Johnson)
>wrote:
>>How many Black people have been elected mayor in your city?
>>
>>Wayne "Just curious" Johnson
>How many Black mayors have been elected in Washington, DC?
You tell me. I was asking about your town, out of sheer curiosity.
>What's a better city for Black people?
>Washington, DC or Rocky River, OH?
I've already given my opinion about the issue of "which city is better
for Black people"; I say it's a bogus question. If you want to give
us your own value judgements, go right ahead.
Any place you live is what you make of it. If DC is bad for Black
people, it's bad for every American. If it isn't, it isn't. Describe
your criteria, or move on.
>I drive around Rocky River all hours of the day and night and see
>quite a few Black people other than myself.
I do the same thing here in Los Angeles. So does Johnnie Cochran,
Rodney King, Bernard Parks, OJ Simpson, Maxine Waters, Eddie Murphy,
Dionne Warwick, and about 800,000 other Black people.
What do you think of that?
>I've been stopped once
>each for having a burned out headlight and expired (by a day) tags
>(with the replacements on the seat beside me). Nobody beat me.
>Nobody shot me. Nobody called me a "nigger". Nobody framed me for a
>crime I didn't commit.
I can say the same, right here in the City of Angels. Does that make
it good for Black folks? Bad for Black folks? Which one works for
you?
>I've never seen another Black person interact
>with the police for ANY reason, justified or otherwise.
Ever seen any Black folks gain influence in the politics of the town,
as in being elected to some post?
>Where do you think Amadou Diallo's mother wishes he had lived?
Where do you think David Dinkins' mother wishes he had lived?
>As for Cleveland, it's had two Black mayors. Three, if you count City
>Council president George Forbes who virtually ran the city when
>Voinovich was mayor.
I don't know what "virtually" means, in this context. Was he
"virtually" elected, or something?
>How many has LA had?
Virtually, or actually?
Wayne "Just curious" Johnson
ciac...@hotmail.com
**************************
Late one night, I heard my Mama and Daddy talkin.
Mama say, "Daddy. I'm worried. That boy boogie
all day, and boogie all night. He just boogie all
the time."
And Daddy say, "Mama. Don't worry. That boy got
to boogie. It's in him; and it's got to come out."
-John Lee Hooker, "Born To Boogie"
Wayne Johnson
<mice_el...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <3993780...@nntp.we.mediaone.net>,
> cia...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> I live in Los Angeles, enjoy all three criteria you name, and this
>> place is the home of Johnnie Cochrane vs. the LAPD. I could write a
>> long list of reasons why Black folks shouldn't want to live here;
>> however, I make a good living, I'm sending my kids to premiere
>> schools, and so on.
>
>Understandable, but there ARE places you'd probably find less hospitable-
>for any of a number of reasons. Of which overt racism is only one.
Coeur-de-Lane, Idaho, comes to mind.
>A friend lived in Burlington Vermont for a number of years, didn't
>experience any overt racism. But one gets a little tired of not seeing
>ANY faces that look like one, and the hair thing was a BIG issue for her.
I suppose this was a problem for Black expatriates in Paris, too, but
it didn't slow them down much.
>I'd also say that Montreal, Canada, is not a place for a Black person to
>live if they want to succeed.
I talked to a guy one time who swore that Canada was great for Black
folks; he was born and raised there, in Montreal. I have no
experience with it, so I can't say anything about it either way.
>And we can just ask Kenny Crudup about Boston.
I wonder if he's still there.
Wayne "He was there for quite a while, despite the noise he made about
it" Johnson
Christopher Morton
wrote:
>>How many Black mayors have been elected in Washington, DC?
>
>You tell me. I was asking about your town, out of sheer curiosity.
Two?
>>What's a better city for Black people?
>
>>Washington, DC or Rocky River, OH?
>
>I've already given my opinion about the issue of "which city is better
>for Black people"; I say it's a bogus question. If you want to give
>us your own value judgements, go right ahead.
The cops here haven't shot any unarmed people 19 times since I've been
here. Hell, they haven't shot ANYBODY since I've been here.
>Any place you live is what you make of it. If DC is bad for Black
>people, it's bad for every American. If it isn't, it isn't. Describe
>your criteria, or move on.
So if DC is bad for Black people, it's bad for Newt Gingrich?
HOW?
>>I drive around Rocky River all hours of the day and night and see
>>quite a few Black people other than myself.
>
>I do the same thing here in Los Angeles. So does Johnnie Cochran,
>Rodney King, Bernard Parks, OJ Simpson, Maxine Waters, Eddie Murphy,
>Dionne Warwick, and about 800,000 other Black people.
>
>What do you think of that?
What do the people beaten or shot by the police think of it?
>>I've been stopped once
>>each for having a burned out headlight and expired (by a day) tags
>>(with the replacements on the seat beside me). Nobody beat me.
>>Nobody shot me. Nobody called me a "nigger". Nobody framed me for a
>>crime I didn't commit.
>
>I can say the same, right here in the City of Angels. Does that make
>it good for Black folks? Bad for Black folks? Which one works for
>you?
Can OTHER people say that? They seem to be able to say it here.
>>I've never seen another Black person interact
>>with the police for ANY reason, justified or otherwise.
>
>Ever seen any Black folks gain influence in the politics of the town,
>as in being elected to some post?
No, but I don't really know either.. Are you saying that if you gain
influence in your community the police will torture or murder you?
That's a strange kind of "influence".
>>Where do you think Amadou Diallo's mother wishes he had lived?
>
>Where do you think David Dinkins' mother wishes he had lived?
David Dinkins or Amadou Diallo?
And if the latter, what difference does it make?
Do you think that Dinkins' mother cares more about Diallo than his own
mother?
>>As for Cleveland, it's had two Black mayors. Three, if you count City
>>Council president George Forbes who virtually ran the city when
>>Voinovich was mayor.
>
>I don't know what "virtually" means, in this context. Was he
>"virtually" elected, or something?
No. Voinovich essentially let Forbes run the city as mayor.
Voinovich acted as little more than a figurehead. Cleveland might
just as well have had Queen Elizabeth as mayor.
>>How many has LA had?
>
>Virtually, or actually?
Both.
---
Gun control, the theory that Black people will be
better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.
Check out:
http://extra.newsguy.com/~cmorton
Coquinegra
You are CLEARLY not a woman
--
"Gospel, jazz and R&B or Bachata, merengue y Salsa.
Depends on the time of day. Any questions?"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
darks...@home.com
Art Clemons <artcl...@aol.com>: wrote the words of wit, towit:
...
First off, thanks for the links to newspaper articles.
>Even some charter schools work
>for a while, but they're not guaranteed to work, and there is usually politics
>associated with the granting of a charter.
I would like a listing of all public schools systems that guarantee that
the graduates of their school systems will perform at a certain level.
If there are none, then the "guaranteed to work" argument against vouchers
and/or charter schools, is a red-herring.
--
"Corporatized or idealized, hip-hop is the American Dream and the African
American Nightmare rolled into one fat-ass blunt." Spine (Nov. 1998)
Ed Brown - darks...@home.net http://www.charm.net/~darkstar
PubKey http://www.charm.net/~darkstar/public_key.html
Art Clemons
Johnson) writes:
>I suppose this was a problem for Black expatriates in Paris, too, but
>it didn't slow them down much.
Actually the Parisian expatriates tended to run into and see each other
constantly. Some even got together for meals like Thanksgiving and Christmas
if they couldn't or wouldn't go home.
-art clemons-
Rich Thompson
ciac...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:20:49 CST, Rich Thompson
> <mice_el...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Understandable, but there ARE places you'd probably find less
> > only one.
>
> Coeur-de-Lane, Idaho, comes to mind.
Never been, but I'd probably concur.
> >A friend lived in Burlington Vermont for a number of years, didn't
> >experience any overt racism. But one gets a little tired of not seeing
> >ANY faces that look like one, and the hair thing was a BIG issue for
> > her.
>
> I suppose this was a problem for Black expatriates in Paris, too, but
> it didn't slow them down much.
Which thing- the no other Black faces thing, or the hair thing? (shrug)
it's more important for some than others. But for some Black people it's
important. It's not clear what's so objectionable about a question about
where are good places for Black people to live, but whatever.
> >And we can just ask Kenny Crudup about Boston.
>
> I wonder if he's still there.
Nope.
> Wayne "He was there for quite a while, despite the noise he made about
> it" Johnson
People stay in bad marriages for a long time, too. Doesn't make them good
marriages.
--
Rich Thompson, Ph.D.
Clinical Psychologist, P-Funk fan, "Stats Guy"
"Don't mess with Mother Nature."
-Koko Taylor
Phil Nation
ciac...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:20:49 CST, Rich Thompson
> <mice_el...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder if he's still there.
>
> it" Johnson
He sure was; in fact I thought I'd be out of Boston before he would
be.:-)
Phil "not going anywhere just yet... except when vacation time
comes, anyway" Kasiecki
--
Philip T. Kasiecki
"Life is not important except in the impact it has on others' lives."
--Jackie Robinson
ver...@my-deja.com
Coquinegra <coqui...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8nmgqp$6o4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ver...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Haircare is and never has been, nor will it ever be, a
consideration.
>
I have female relatives who love here in Queens and who get their hair
done by Hispanics.
I have had a female relative who has lived in Japan, Europe, and South
America.
Some black women can take care of their hair by themselves.
Haircare isn't a consideration for every black person.
>
> --
> "Gospel, jazz and R&B or Bachata, merengue y Salsa.
> Depends on the time of day. Any questions?"
>
Art Clemons
> ver...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> Haircare is and never has been, nor will it ever be, a consideration.
>
>You are CLEARLY not a woman
I don't know all that many African-American men who will use white barbers
either, and most live in small towns with a long drive to hair cut
civilization, and I note that all of them are unmarried too.
-art clemons-
Art Clemons
<chr...@ameritech.net> writes:
Wayne:
>>I can say the same, right here in the City of Angels. Does that make
>>it good for Black folks? Bad for Black folks? Which one works for
>>you?
>
>Can OTHER people say that? They seem to be able to say it here.
Actually, there's a controversy in Philadelphia now, over the treatment of an
aide to the Mayor (and also possibly his nephew) in LA. It seems the nephew
was stopped by two officers for crossing against a red light (believe it or not
Philadelphians jay walk regularly). The mayor and two Philadelphia officers
apparently attempted to find out what was going on, and no answer. The two
officers incidentally pulled out their shields before going up, and asking why
the young man was being held. After an hour, the young man was released by
said officers with no ticket issued, but only after the Mayor had called up
media, and said officers were informed of the action. LA's reaction so far
seems to be that they'll investigate if a complaint is filed. I didn't know
jaywalking was such a major crime in LA, and further I didn't know that taking
an hour to issue a summons/ticket was common.
Sadly, I truly suspect that it's typical behavior for LA police. I filed a
formal complaint which was supposedly investigated about a car stop with no
ticket issued. I was also told that the badge number I had given was assigned
somewhere else. Since I write down the badge number of every officer I deal
with, I don't think so, I don't suffer from dyslexia either and usually can
keep numbers like phone numbers for example in my head for at least two days.
LA's disciplinary system is a joke, and it appears that the officers in
question wanted to avoid a major incident with viable witnesses and the media
when they released the young man with no ticket and no summons. Most cops
would have the good sense not to hold someone for an hour when other out of
town cops come up and ask if a ticket is going to be issued too. Issue the
ticket if you wish, but holding for an hour on jaywalking?
-art clemons-
Art Clemons
writes:
>If there are none, then the "guaranteed to work" argument against vouchers
>and/or charter schools, is a red-herring.
You raise an interesting connundrum. Lots of things work at first, however I
remind you once again that so far nobody and I mean nobody is setting up lots
of new private schools to benefit students if vouchers come about. I also
remind you once again of the Stanley Crouch column in Salon (May 26th if I
remember correctly but late May) on vouchers. Until any voucher advocate can
rebut Crouch's points, said advocate should give up on vouchers.
I at least want some indication that charter schools are a viable solution. My
statement that they're political is one problem (for example it appears that a
certain ex football player, now baptist preacher endorsed GW Bush on national
TV in order to enhance his chances of getting a charter school), for another,
I've seen failed charter schools and it ain't pretty. Most students are going
to go to public schools in the foreseeable future, what will charter schools or
vouchers do for them? What will charter schools do for the students who attend
the charter schools assuming of course that charter schools are really public
schools? Schools need improving, but the biggest improvement needed is more
damn money, and some rewarding of good teachers who remain.
-art clemons-
Wayne Johnson
wrote:
>Actually, there's a controversy in Philadelphia now, over the treatment of an
>aide to the Mayor (and also possibly his nephew) in LA.
A fella named Street, so they say.
>It seems the nephew
>was stopped by two officers for crossing against a red light (believe it or not
>Philadelphians jay walk regularly).
It's against the law in Los Angeles. I don't know about Philadelphia.
In Los Angeles, it can also get you killed. In downtown Los Angeles,
a single jaywalker can tie up traffic for minutes, as all lights are
timed, it's a maze of one way streets and confusing onramps, and so
on.
If the guy was jaywalking Downtown, he is a completely selfish chump
and I have absolutely no sympathy for his lazy ass. There are
crosswalks and walkways all over the place.
>The mayor and two Philadelphia officers
>apparently attempted to find out what was going on, and no answer.
Wrong. The problem was, this clown pitched a bitch when he was
getting written up, and demanded to speak to the officer's superior;
it was a case of, "Don't you know who I am...well, I am special" and
all this crap, and nobody decided to double time over there to find
out why this lazy S.O.B. couldn't use the crosswalk.
>The two
>officers incidentally pulled out their shields before going up, and asking why
>the young man was being held.
BFD.
>After an hour, the young man was released by
>said officers with no ticket issued, but only after the Mayor had called up
>media, and said officers were informed of the action.
BFD. I obey the traffic laws in every city I visit; I think this brat
should have been able to do the same thing. He should have taken his
ticket, and if he was so damned important, he could have given it to
whoever can fix such things (nobody I know of in this town) so he
could continue to feel like a Special Person.
Instead, he had to "escalate". That takes about an hour. Sergeants
in the LAPD have more to do than run around fixing tickets for out of
shape chumps who can't make it to the signal to cross the damned
street.
>LA's reaction so far seems to be that they'll investigate if a complaint is filed.
There were plenty of witnesses, who will testify that this guy tried
to pitch a bitch to bluff his way out of a ticket.
>I didn't know
>jaywalking was such a major crime in LA, and further I didn't know that taking
>an hour to issue a summons/ticket was common.
It doesn't take an hour to give a ticket; the guy wouldn't sign it.
Jaywalking is a crime, and if you want the law to apply to everyone
except crybabies from Philadelphia, just say so. What takes an hour
is calling up the captain of Newton Division, to tell his cops to turn
in the ticket to the commander, to be forwarded to the Mayor's
Protocol Secretary. I think an hour for this kind of personal service
is quite speedy.
>Sadly, I truly suspect that it's typical behavior for LA police.
Damn right. If you jaywalk in front of a cop, you get a ticket. It's
very typical in this town; how is it handled in Philadelphia?
>I filed a
>formal complaint which was supposedly investigated about a car stop with no
>ticket issued. I was also told that the badge number I had given was assigned
>somewhere else. Since I write down the badge number of every officer I deal
>with, I don't think so, I don't suffer from dyslexia either and usually can
>keep numbers like phone numbers for example in my head for at least two days.
You didn't escalate it; and whatever your violation was, it probably
wasn't as clearcut as jaywalking across six lanes of busy downtown
L.A. thoroughfare, in front of a cop, and jamming up traffic.
>LA's disciplinary system is a joke, and it appears that the officers in
>question wanted to avoid a major incident with viable witnesses and the media
>when they released the young man with no ticket and no summons.
They were ordered to do so by their commander, who has better things
for his cops to do than hassle with chumps who think they are
"connected" with some Philly pol, for some reason.
>Most cops
>would have the good sense not to hold someone for an hour when other out of
>town cops come up and ask if a ticket is going to be issued too.
Most cops would have arrested this turkey for failing to post bail via
signing the damned ticket.
>Issue the ticket if you wish, but holding for an hour on jaywalking?
Since this isn't what occurred, it doesn't require an answer.
Wayne "Maybe it took that long to explain to him what the crosswalks
and traffic signals were for; this guy doesn't sound like he's too
bright" Johnson
Coquinegra
ver...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I have female relatives who love here in Queens and who get their hair
> done by Hispanics.
>
The point is having SOMEONE who can do it. After being brought
up in a town with *1* Black beautician, I will NEVER live anywhere
like that again. A few years ago I went home and had to wait for
the one stylist to come from home to do my hair. not me, never again
ver...@my-deja.com
Coquinegra <coqui...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8null0$8la$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ver...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> The point is having SOMEONE who can do it. After being brought
> up in a town with *1* Black beautician, I will NEVER live anywhere
> like that again. A few years ago I went home and had to wait for
> the one stylist to come from home to do my hair. not me, never again
My cousin had no problem doing her own hair for those two years in
Japan. I've known a black woman who moved to Isreal for while. She
survived and did her hair herself.
Again, people here tend to projection their own attitudes on to an
entire race of people, when in reality we are individuals!
darks...@home.com
>writes:
>
>>If there are none, then the "guaranteed to work" argument against vouchers
>>and/or charter schools, is a red-herring.
>
>You raise an interesting connundrum. Lots of things work at first, however I
>remind you once again that so far nobody and I mean nobody is setting up lots
>of new private schools to benefit students if vouchers come about.
It seems, to me, that even voucher foes have admitted that many "private"
schools are opening in urban areas, and that many of those schools are
run by Blacks. So, that goes against your premise.
>I also
>remind you once again of the Stanley Crouch column in Salon (May 26th if I
>remember correctly but late May) on vouchers. Until any voucher advocate can
>rebut Crouch's points, said advocate should give up on vouchers.
Tell that to someone who has a child in a school system that stinks.
>I at least want some indication that charter schools are a viable solution.
But, you don't hold public schools to the same standard.
ver...@my-deja.com
darks...@home.com wrote:
>
> >
>
> It seems, to me, that even voucher foes have admitted that
many "private"
> schools are opening in urban areas, and that many of those schools are
> run by Blacks. So, that goes against your premise.
Well, I can't speak for other cities, but new private schools aren't
opening in vast numbers in NYC, and a good private school here would
cost at least 10,000 dollars. Vouchers won't cover that. They would
cover parochial schools, but not every poor black person or poor person
of any race, for that matter, wishes to send his or her child to a
parochial school.
>
> >
> But, you don't hold public schools to the same standard.
The most important thing is that you have a parent who sees to it that
his kinds of a good education. One make can sure his or her child does
work in the public school the child currently attends, and the child
can be sent to summer programs and educational camps, and in high
school can attend summer college, etc.
>
> --
> "Corporatized or idealized, hip-hop is the American Dream and the
African
> American Nightmare rolled into one fat-ass blunt." Spine (Nov. 1998)
> Ed Brown - darks...@home.net http://www.charm.net/~darkstar
> PubKey http://www.charm.net/~darkstar/public_key.html
>
>
Coquinegra
ver...@my-deja.com wrote:
> My cousin had no problem doing her own hair for those two years in
> Japan. I've known a black woman who moved to Isreal for while. She
> survived and did her hair herself.
How many of the 34 million African Americans live in Japan?
How many live in Israel?
> Again, people here tend to projection their own attitudes on to an
> entire race of people, when in reality we are individuals!
No one is projecting anything, I"m simply telling you
what is a priority with me
Roger Brown
wrote:
>frankly there aren't many sububan
>schools good for middle class African heritage folks either.
>
>I guess Ed is about to go singing the male part of the Green Acres' themesong.
>-art clemons-
Montgomery County, MD, where Ed used to live and we live now is such a
place. Probably the best county in the state, suburbs of DC, many
African-Americans.
- Roger
Roger Brown
>>the DC metropolitan area,
>
>lot of professionals, high political consciousness, NO political clout.
Huh? Are you talking about a different DC? where past and present
mayors are black, where Anthony Williams is trying to recover from the
wreckage that Marion Barry created? African-Americans have lots of
clout, subject to some arbitrary behavior by Congress sometimes ....
>I cast my vote for the one place that has high quantities of all three
>variables. The largest black city in North (and South) America. The
>place where the weak are killed and eaten.....
>
>The 313.....the D.....DETROIT.
Detroit is a dump. I was born there, I can say it.
- Roger
Roger Brown
<chr...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>>How many has LA had?
>>
>>Virtually, or actually?
>
>Both.
Mayor Tom Bradley, the mayor for twenty years of fairly proseperous
times for the city. Consider that LA is only 12% black; the influence
of blacks is higher than the percentages in the population.
- Roger
darks...@home.com
<ver...@my-deja.com>: wrote the words of wit, towit:
> darks...@home.com wrote:
>>
>
>> >
>
>>
>> It seems, to me, that even voucher foes have admitted that
>many "private"
>> schools are opening in urban areas, and that many of those schools are
>> run by Blacks. So, that goes against your premise.
>
>Well, I can't speak for other cities, but new private schools aren't
>opening in vast numbers in NYC, and a good private school here would
>cost at least 10,000 dollars. Vouchers won't cover that. They would
>cover parochial schools, but not every poor black person or poor person
>of any race, for that matter, wishes to send his or her child to a
>parochial school.
To me, private and parochial schools both come under the private umbrella.
I don't care to quibble about symantics. And the fact is, many Black kids
who don't attend public schools, do attend parochial schools.
>> >
>> But, you don't hold public schools to the same standard.
>
>The most important thing is that you have a parent who sees to it that
>his kinds of a good education. One make can sure his or her child does
>work in the public school the child currently attends, and the child
>can be sent to summer programs and educational camps, and in high
>school can attend summer college, etc.
When you have to send your kid to other sources *TO MAKE UP* for the
schooling your kid isn't getting, something is wrong. And most of the
parents that I know who do these things, are doing it for that reason.
Wayne Johnson
>When you have to send your kid to other sources *TO MAKE UP* for the
>schooling your kid isn't getting, something is wrong. And most of the
>parents that I know who do these things, are doing it for that reason.
Tell us what sources we're supposed to go to when we have *TO MAKE UP*
somebody's name to write on the bottom of that big-ass tuition check.
Wayne "When the wealthy need *TO MAKE UP* for bad education, they have
the money...does that work for us?" Johnson
Art Clemons
>It seems, to me, that even voucher foes have admitted that many "private"
>schools are opening in urban areas, and that many of those schools are
>run by Blacks. So, that goes against your premise.
>
What percentage of African-Americans in urban areas go to private schooling of
any kind? Whites make up a higher percentage of the numbers than their
percentages in urban areas. I also note that the growth rate for new private
schools is low around the country.
ac:
>>I also
>>remind you once again of the Stanley Crouch column in Salon (May 26th if I
>>remember correctly but late May) on vouchers. Until any voucher advocate can
>>rebut Crouch's points, said advocate should give up on vouchers.
>Tell that to someone who has a child in a school system that stinks.
How many new seats are going to open up because of vouchers? Come on, I did
the math once on a hypothetical and then you wanted to use real world numbers,
now where are the new schools? I don't know of any parochial school in a big
city with students near by going begging for students, and I remind you, most
of the private schooling is parochial. If you can't rebut Crouch's arguments,
how can you rebut the real world financial arguments against them?
>>I at least want some indication that charter schools are a viable solution.
>But, you don't hold public schools to the same standard.
I have this thing about large scale experimentation on African-Americans. I
remember the Tuskeegee experiment, urban renewal, clustering in schools,
tracking and the like which were all experiments which don't seem to have
benefitted African-Americans. You're damn straight, I don't. I want to see
African-American youth get the good education they deserve, and gimmicks don't
work in the long run. If they did, someone could hire Marva Collins to run a
big city school district and watch that work.
-art clemons-
Jonas Simbacca
darks...@home.com wrote:
> When you have to send your kid to other sources *TO MAKE UP* for the
> schooling your kid isn't getting, something is wrong.
Yeah, the way that funding is doled out for public schools that results
in inner-city schools that remain underfunded (and in poor condition)
while the suburbs are constantly getting new, pristine schools that
have enough money lying around to fund water polo and lacrosse teams.
Art Clemons
<jonas_s...@my-deja.com> writes:
>Yeah, the way that funding is doled out for public schools that results
>in inner-city schools that remain underfunded (and in poor condition)
>while the suburbs are constantly getting new, pristine schools that
>have enough money lying around to fund water polo and lacrosse teams.
>
While you say this in a supposedly sarcastic manner, please note that it's
closer to the truth than you realize. Ever bothered to compare the funding for
successful suburban schools IN THE SAME METRO AREA to big city public schools?
Further, ever bothered to compare teacher salaries the same way.
-art clemons-
DarkStar
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:38:30 CST, darks...@home.com wrote:
>
>
> >When you have to send your kid to other sources *TO MAKE UP* for the
> >schooling your kid isn't getting, something is wrong. And most of the
> >parents that I know who do these things, are doing it for that reason.
>
> Tell us what sources we're supposed to go to when we have *TO MAKE UP*
> somebody's name to write on the bottom of that big-ass tuition check.
What are you writing about?
I have friends who are not wealthy, who have purchased "Hooked On Phonics"
either directly or used, who have taken advantage of free public libray
programs, who have purchased work books at stores like Borders, or who
have hired tutors.
DarkStar
That's pretty damned funny.
Prince Georges County, MD, public schools are suburban schools. They have
"so much money" lying around that they are having trouble getting funding
to build much needed schools.
DarkStar
> In article <8o63j2$vh$1...@cc656501-a.hwrd1.md.home.com>, darks...@home.com
> writes:
>
> >It seems, to me, that even voucher foes have admitted that many "private"
> >schools are opening in urban areas, and that many of those schools are
> >run by Blacks. So, that goes against your premise.
> >
>
> What percentage of African-Americans in urban areas go to private schooling of
> any kind? Whites make up a higher percentage of the numbers than their
> percentages in urban areas. I also note that the growth rate for new private
> schools is low around the country.
What percentage of those private schools have mainly minority students?
> ac:
> >>I also
> >>remind you once again of the Stanley Crouch column in Salon (May 26th if I
> >>remember correctly but late May) on vouchers. Until any voucher advocate
>>> can
> >>rebut Crouch's points, said advocate should give up on vouchers.
>
> >Tell that to someone who has a child in a school system that stinks.
>
> How many new seats are going to open up because of vouchers? Come on, I did
> the math once on a hypothetical and then you wanted to use real world
> numbers,
> now where are the new schools? I don't know of any parochial school in a big
> city with students near by going begging for students, and I remind you, most
> of the private schooling is parochial. If you can't rebut Crouch's
> arguments,
> how can you rebut the real world financial arguments against them?
I haven't seen Crouch's argument. I've rebutted your's a number of times.
If there are 10,000 students in a school system. And the school system is
funded based on the number of students in the school system, then the
student per funding level stays the same for 10,000 students vs 20,000
students.
> >>I at least want some indication that charter schools are a viable solution.
>
> >But, you don't hold public schools to the same standard.
>
> I have this thing about large scale experimentation on African-Americans.
Then why is it you have never written anything against magnet schools?
"Whole word" learning is a proven failure, as is the method of teaching
math that does not stress getting the right answer.
darks...@home.com
Roger Brown <bro...@erols.com>: wrote the words of wit, towit:
>wrote:
>
>>frankly there aren't many sububan
>>schools good for middle class African heritage folks either.
>>
>>I guess Ed is about to go singing the male part of the Green Acres'
>> themesong.
>
>
>place. Probably the best county in the state, suburbs of DC, many
>African-Americans.
Roger, if you want to, check the Maryland School Performance Report
website. I think you may be surprised at the overall performance of
schools in your area.
darks...@home.com
Wayne Johnson <ciac...@hotmail.com>: wrote the words of wit, towit:
>On Fri, 1 Sep 2000 06:54:25 CST, DarkStar <darks...@home.com>
>wrote:
...
>Speaking from first hand experience, it is not the best way to go,
>even if it works.
If sending your child to private school works, and the public system doesn't,
then by definition, it is the best way to go.
Art Clemons
writes:
>I was an early reader, and my mother taught me using phonics books given to
>her by a friend, who was a teacher. As you defend whole word learning, the
>results of that method show that most students do worst off using that
>method.
That's funny, I learned to recognize words on sight as whole words, and that's
what most people do after they learn how to read, regardless of how they learn
to read. I'm not defending whole word, I'm just pointing out that phonics
didn't work in the past, and isn't always working now in the community,
especially for young folks who already recognize some words in the first three
grades. Rote learning alone doesn't work for reading, besides I'm still trying
to figure out which is worse for spelling, whole word or phonics.
ac:
>>Lots of drill on math doesn't always prepare one for questions
>>that require math usage.
>
>Sure, and teaching students that "getting close to the answer is all that
>matters" is a real fine way of teaching. Let's see, you buy some food at
>a fast food place, and let the cash register go down. Then let me see
>you accept $1 in change when you should be getting $3 and change.
Most people just do estimates. If you tell me to figure out how approximate
change I should get from a Twenty, when I buy one dollar and 79 cents worth of
goods is probably a better approach if I round up to $2 and figure at least
eighteen dollars back. Besides the present new method really doesn't teach
students to deal with new situations, which is what I object to.
>
>>Face it, phonics is another experiment, one that has
>>failed African-Americans in the past, and so was the old math.
>
>That's provable to be wrong. In fact, the most successful methods being used,
>*NOW*, are phonics based.
Are you really going to tell me that schools in the 1950's and 1960's really
did a good job of educating African-Americans? Which method was beig used
then?
Old math is a joke, one that doesn't prepare students to use tools. While
knowing how to add, multiply and divide is useful, quite frankly most folks
don't normally add things up in a supermarket for example to know when the
available money is used up either. Hell, most folks can't do statistics
computations either, and those use really basic math concepts in repetition.
The society didn't just move away from phonics or the old math because the
techniques were old, but because they didn't seem to work, and even now there
are young people not learning to read or do math despite the return to the "old
days". The good old days weren't as good those remembering them want those
days to be, and phonics too has its failures. Further, want to hear a secret
about reading, the more practice you get doing it, the more likely you are to
learn to read. Want to hear a secret about math, the more of it you do that
challenges you to think about math, the more likely you are to be able to deal
with math. The present going back to phonics is a gimmick, a gimmick that
failed before and has obvious failures now. If a student doesn't learn to
recognize most words, that same student also doesn't learn to spell, write, or
read. Besides, there's the old conundrum, how do you deal with "data" and
"suite" for example? (For those who don't know, both words have two common
pronunciations in American english) Phonics only works up to a point in
English, there are too many exceptions and foreign words for it to work.
-art clemons-
Wayne Johnson
>
>Wayne Johnson <ciac...@hotmail.com>: wrote the words of wit, towit:
>>On Fri, 1 Sep 2000 06:54:25 CST, DarkStar <darks...@home.com>
>>wrote:
>
>>Speaking from first hand experience, it is not the best way to go,
>>even if it works.
>
>If sending your child to private school works, and the public system doesn't,
>then by definition, it is the best way to go.
Education is not the only thing in life.
People have to have a home. They have to have decent health care.
They have to have recreation, and clothing, and food.
The public system is supposed to work, and for a lot of people (mostly
the ones who can afford to opt out of it) it does. It should for
everyone.
To say that the people who can least afford it should be the ones
pressing hardest to pay for private education is not the best way to
go, unless we're all supposed to live like Asian immigrants, ten to a
room, while some prodigal son prepares for Harvard.
Wayne "Please note that it is rarely everyone in the Asian family that
gets all the attention" Johnson