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Views on WM dating AF

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Treena Leveriza

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May 6, 1994, 8:03:58 PM5/6/94
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In a previous article, n914...@scooter.cc.wwu.edu (Joseph Liston) says:

>me is I sometimes feel that I am judged as only dating her because she is
>subserviant (which is totally false) and that I "want to get laid." Even

>We need to erase these ancient stereotypes of Asian women...

> - Joe
Unfortunately these ancient stereotypes of Asian women are still alive
today. You should let your views be heard on the newsgroup that is titled
something like "alt.sex.fetish.orientals'. Many people who contribute to
this newsgroups believe that Asian women are subservient and all-obeying!
They are so in the dark! I'm a filipina and I'll let you know that I am
far from being subservient and closer to being dominant! It's good to hear
that there are some guys out there who actually love Asian women for who
they are and what they are all about, not what they are believed to be. I
am engaged to a White guy myself, and I couldn't be happier!

Treena:)
--

Joseph Liston

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May 5, 1994, 7:09:15 PM5/5/94
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I am a white male who is deeply in love with a wonderful Chinese girl, we
have been dating for about 7 months, with no major cultural or language
differences (mainly because I have a background in Chinese language and
culture, and she speaks fairly good English) . The only thing that bothers

me is I sometimes feel that I am judged as only dating her because she is
subserviant (which is totally false) and that I "want to get laid." Even
here in multi-racial western Washington State, I've heard people utter this sort of shit. I know that some WM's really only want sex from supposedly "naive"
foriegn students, because my girlfriend had an experience with a guy
propositioning her on the first date (she of course turned it down) before
she met me. I try not to let it bother me because I really love her and
don't care what others think, but it bothers me to hear stereotypical
remarks reminiscient of the 1940's.

chakravorty bonnie jean

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May 9, 1994, 6:28:35 PM5/9/94
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while we're at it, lets erase sterotypes of American women held by Asian men.
As an officer in the International Students Association during grad school I
came to know many foreign students (that's how I met my Asian husband). Perhaps
because I am outgoing many got the idea that I was "fast" or ready for anything,
anytime. Once I was taking a student on a sight seeing tour in my car. During
the ride he nonchalantly says "How about a fuck, just between friends?" I almost
wrecked the car. I had similar experiences with other Asian men and when we got
down to discussing it they revealed a view of American women as disloyal, loose,(promiscuous that is) some did not consider American women to be in the same
how shall I say, species as women from their own countries. Obviously this does
not apply to all (my husband and the Asian men I am proud to call my friends are
strongly humanistic).

Go-Captain Suzdal

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May 10, 1994, 2:07:30 PM5/10/94
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In article <2qmdej$2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> bcha...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (chakravorty bonnie jean) writes:
>while we're at it, lets erase sterotypes of American women held by Asian men.

I assume you mean foreign-born Asian men rather than Asian American men,
who for the most part are aware that most American women won't give them
the time of day when asked. :-|

>As an officer in the International Students Association during grad school I
>came to know many foreign students (that's how I met my Asian husband). Perhaps
>because I am outgoing many got the idea that I was "fast" or ready for anything,
>anytime. Once I was taking a student on a sight seeing tour in my car. During
>the ride he nonchalantly says "How about a fuck, just between friends?" I almost
>wrecked the car.

And it is far less common for American men to do the same? From reading
about fraternity rapes in soc.college, it would seem that this mode of
operation is not uncommon in the U.S. either.

>I had similar experiences with other Asian men and when we got
>down to discussing it they revealed a view of American women as disloyal, loose,(promiscuous that is) some did not consider American women to be in the same
>how shall I say, species as women from their own countries. Obviously this does
>not apply to all (my husband and the Asian men I am proud to call my friends are
>strongly humanistic).

In Michael Crichton's novel, _Eaters Of the Dead_, the Arab historian Ibn
Fadlan makes the observation that a societies tend to view other societies
as inferiors, except in the matter of sexual behaviour; in fact, the more
another society is held to be low or primitive, the greater the reputed
sexual prowess of its members, especially in regard to the women. By the
standards of many non-Western cultures, American women exhibit brazen behaviour
characteristic of the local purveyors of the comfort trade. This is certainly
a matter for caution for American women venture into other countries.

On the dexter side, men from other cultures are often viewed not as
being attractively sexually provocative as the women are, but merely
as lustful, crude, and willing to rape Our Women. I wonder whether or
not this has caused b.j.c. to filter her experience according to her
expectations, despite her best efforts to maintain a liberal attitude.


--
C. Chan Laboratory of Astrophysics and
ch...@alfrothul.uchicago.edu Space Research, Enrico Fermi Institute
The University of Chicago

AU...@asuacad.bitnet

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May 10, 1994, 2:11:31 PM5/10/94
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Good for you. Your detractors are just jealous.

C.M. Leung

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May 10, 1994, 4:01:28 PM5/10/94
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In article <2qmdej$2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> bcha...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (chakravorty bonnie jean) writes:


Sadly that's how Hollywood protraits the women in this country. This is the
kind of thing that impacts on cultures overseas. When I was in Mexico,
American rubia is still an impression that represents liberal lifestyle and
a strong sex-symbol. Of course, when people live here long enough they find
all sorts of people in this country with a wide array of lifestyles.
However, other segments of the society are never fully represented in the
movies.

One thing I do want to comment about though: I think sex is overly
glorified in every aspect of this culture, very much more so often than the
intangible and nebulous concept of love.

C.M. Leung

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May 10, 1994, 9:31:19 PM5/10/94
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>In Michael Crichton's novel, _Eaters Of the Dead_, the Arab historian Ibn
>Fadlan makes the observation that a societies tend to view other societies
>as inferiors, except in the matter of sexual behaviour; in fact, the more
>another society is held to be low or primitive, the greater the reputed
>sexual prowess of its members, especially in regard to the women. By the
>standards of many non-Western cultures, American women exhibit brazen behaviour
>characteristic of the local purveyors of the comfort trade. This is certainly
>a matter for caution for American women venture into other countries.
>
>On the dexter side, men from other cultures are often viewed not as
>being attractively sexually provocative as the women are, but merely
>as lustful, crude, and willing to rape Our Women. I wonder whether or
>not this has caused b.j.c. to filter her experience according to her
>expectations, despite her best efforts to maintain a liberal attitude.

Chan, do you usually uphold sci-fi fictions as foundation of truth? I view
them as curiosities at best, like those cute little fury beings in the pet
shops...

In my opinion, I think Michael Crichton is a downright contemporary racist
bastard (check out Congo and Rising Sun).

Henry Robertson

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May 11, 1994, 12:40:49 AM5/11/94
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In article <1994May11.0...@ultb.isc.rit.edu>,
C.M. Leung <cml...@ultb.isc.rit.edu> wrote:

>>In Michael Crichton's novel, _Eaters Of the Dead_, the Arab historian Ibn
>>Fadlan makes the observation that a societies tend to view other societies
>>as inferiors, except in the matter of sexual behaviour; in fact, the more
>>another society is held to be low or primitive, the greater the reputed
>>sexual prowess of its members, especially in regard to the women. By the

However, I haven't noticed too many White men talking about the sexual
powers of African women as opposed to, say, Asian or Latina women.
As far as the usual bigotry is concerned, Africans are supposed to be more
primitive than Asians or Latinos. I've heard lots from Aussie men
going balls over heels about Asian women, but not so much about
aboriginal women. White men lusting after Black women in the US is
treated as a somewhat old-fashioned fetish, whereas White men lusting after
Asian/Latina women is the most fashionable IR coupling.

>In my opinion, I think Michael Crichton is a downright contemporary racist
>bastard (check out Congo and Rising Sun).

He had several major misconceptions about Japanese culture, the Japanese
population in Los Angeles, and the dynamic of Asian American communities.
As a small example, ....

In real life, Japanese businessmen don't recruit Vietnamese teenagers
to shoot White men. Asides from the language barrier, the Vietnamese
teens would probably be too eager to shoot Japanese first.

We also note that in Crichton's novels, women almost always play negative roles.

As for the movie Rising Sun, that's been the laughing stock of
soc.culture.japan for all its cultural errors. It would not
be convincing to a Japanese audience for anything over five minutes.

Tse-Sung Wu

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May 11, 1994, 11:55:03 AM5/11/94
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Excerpts from netnews.soc.couples.intercultural: 10-May-94 Re: Views on
WM dating AF by Go-Captain Suzdal@alfrot
> In article <2qmdej$2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> bcha...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
(chakravort

> y bonnie jean) writes:
> >while we're at it, lets erase sterotypes of American women held by
Asian men.
>
> I assume you mean foreign-born Asian men rather than Asian American men,
> who for the most part are aware that most American women won't give them
> the time of day when asked. :-|

You mean you think As-Am men won't get the time of day from most
American women? Is this from personal experience?

Tse-Sung

Go-Captain Suzdal

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May 11, 1994, 12:01:49 PM5/11/94
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In article <1994May11.0...@ultb.isc.rit.edu> cml...@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.M. Leung) writes:
>
>
>Chan, do you usually uphold sci-fi fictions as foundation of truth? I view
>them as curiosities at best, like those cute little fury beings in the pet
>shops...
>
Not sure what you mean by foundations of truth, but I've found that even in
mediocre works of fiction, sometimes an interesting kernel of an idea can
be gleaned. The above observations re. sexual prowess of alien cultures
certainly isn't far fetched. If you read travelogues by Herodotus and
Marco Polo, they often recount rumors regarding marital habits of foreign
peoples.

>In my opinion, I think Michael Crichton is a downright contemporary racist
>bastard (check out Congo and Rising Sun).
>

I don't know how much of a racist he is, but to me he's an uninteresting
writer. I stopped after Andromeda Strain. But Eaters of the Dead surprised
me; I really liked it. The story is a retelling of Beowulf from the viewpoint
of an Arab scholar forced to travel with a band of Vikings. And re. Northern
European women, now the world-wide standard of beauty, Crichton speaking
through the voice of Ibn Fadlan has some rather unflattering things to say;
indeed the book is refreshing since it looks at the barbaric roots of
European culture through the eyes of a civilized man, inverting the
attitude the West has today w. regard to Islam.

Tse-Sung Wu

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May 11, 1994, 12:05:28 PM5/11/94
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Had a friend who commented that Michael Crichton is simply making a
killing on taking white males' fears (I think he meant the upper middle
class educated who would tend to buy his books...) and writes them up in
easy to read prose.

You have Japan, Inc., with his incipient discourses on industrial policy
peppering a detective's daily routine ("Funny you should ask that John.
You see, in Japan, the kereitsu system is blah blah blah...") to his
latest, sexual harassment of men from women in power.

Don't know where cloned dinosaurs fit in tho'...or nasty microbes from space-

Tse-Sung

Tse-Sung Wu

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May 11, 1994, 12:20:25 PM5/11/94
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Excerpts from netnews.soc.couples.intercultural: 10-May-94 Re: Views on
WM dating AF by C.M. Le...@ultb.isc.rit.
> In article <2qmdej$2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> bcha...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
> >(chakravorty bonnie jean) writes:

(stuff on foreign views of American women being promiscuous)


>
>
> Sadly that's how Hollywood protraits the women in this country. This is the

> [snip]

When I was travelling in eastern Turkey (Anatolia and Kurdistan) a few
summers ago my partner had an awful time with the men there. In
addition to not getting the time of day from them when we were talking
with people (always men, never women), she'd get lewd looks, leers,
gestures, and men grabbing her. I was clueless! We thought that maybe
through the media, porn videos (which you can get as far out as near Mt.
Ararat), they had a very loose impression of foreign women (she's As-Am
actually). Also, not wearing the veil like all 'proper' women of that
area probably didn't help things.

Tse-Sung

Go-Captain Suzdal

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May 11, 1994, 5:43:07 PM5/11/94
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If you interpret it literally, I suppose most Asian American men
(and most people for that matter) probably get the time of day from
their watches and don't need to ask anyone else.

But really I mean that rejection is more likely for an A-AM. Despite
being told that we are a hard working model minority and other silliness,
in terms of social status, A-AM are considered outside the mainstream
of Real America. Now this may change in a hundred years or so, just as
a century and a half ago, Irish and Italians were considered outside
the Anglo-Dutch-Germanic mainstream. Commensurate with that status is
a general feeling on the part of most American women that Asian American men
are not desirable for sex or marriage, though as casual friends they may
be useful, especially with math homework.

As for whether it is based on personal experience: yes, though my
experience hasn't been totally dreadful. But my experience is to
a large extent confirmed by other A-AM who have posted in this group,
though of course your mileage may vary. In addition, there have a number
of pop-psych style surveys which, though hardly rigorous, all show the
general trend: A-AM finish far behind other ethnic groups in polls
of American women when asked what types of men they consider sexy.

Is this a cause for despair? No, I think of it as a spur to action
and positive self-improvement.

Go-Captain Suzdal

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May 12, 1994, 4:21:01 PM5/12/94
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In article <1994May10.2...@ultb.isc.rit.edu> cml...@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.M. Leung) writes:
>In article <2qmdej$2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> bcha...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (chakravorty bonnie jean) writes:
>
>Sadly that's how Hollywood protraits the women in this country. This is the
>kind of thing that impacts on cultures overseas. When I was in Mexico,
>American rubia is still an impression that represents liberal lifestyle and
>a strong sex-symbol. Of course, when people live here long enough they find
>all sorts of people in this country with a wide array of lifestyles.
>However, other segments of the society are never fully represented in the
>movies.
>
Myths and movies rarely ever portray a wide cross section of society.
They focus on the beautiful and the handsome, the bold and cunning.
In healthy societies, wisdom and honor and compassion are also valued.
In the Hollywood cinema, these qualities are often wholly absent, which
I believe indicates a sickness and malaise in American cinema.

>One thing I do want to comment about though: I think sex is overly
>glorified in every aspect of this culture, very much more so often than the
>intangible and nebulous concept of love.

Sex is a tangible which can be packaged and sold. Love is nebulous and
individual. As the poets know, love is more often found in what is unsaid and
undone as it is in noisy songs and lewd behavior: found in those silences
between lovers which are the sigil of a deeper communion, requiring
no words to convey meaning.

As an exile to this land, I am continually bewildered by how important
the notion of love is to Westerners and how much it is taken for granted.
For me it is a fresh and inspiring idea, that a bond between two lone,
small individuals can make take precedence over the needs of family and
society. Yet Americans treat it as a commodity to be bartered for like
pork bellies on the options and futures market.

Westerners consider love the be the highest of emotions, yet also
something which spontaneously arises in a person. This seems a contradiction
to me. Just as I wouldn't build a great house without a firm foundation,
so I would think that if love is the highest of emotions, it needs
must have firm foundations, such as honor, constancy, and truth.
Perhaps this explains why there are so many failed marriages among
people who marry before they truly know themselves.

In the end, I think that this idea of love is doomed. In its beginning
among the minnesingers and troubadours of medieval Europe, love was
an expression of freedom and rebellion against the dictates of Church
and State. In our free America, there is nothing to react against to
give love a sense of fullness and desperation. And in our century, the
two great secular religions of capitalism and communism have nothing
to say about man as spirit, but only as an economic enitity, a being
that consumes and voids his waste. In the realm of the purely material,
there is no harbor for love.

And yet...babies are born, the dead are buried, our scientists daily
produce new miracles to astound and our artists works of wonder, in spite
of the dying of love.

So you see, it is quite possible to live in a world devoid of love:
we are all doing so, right now.

Brian L. Robinson

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May 15, 1994, 9:15:17 PM5/15/94
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In article <QhoE98u00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, Tse-Sung Wu <tw...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|> Had a friend who commented that Michael Crichton is simply making a
|> killing on taking white males' fears (I think he meant the upper middle
|> class educated who would tend to buy his books...) and writes them up in
|> easy to read prose.

If he had done it for any other group, he would have been hailed for his
understanding of how the group thinks and for giving that group a voice. He does
it for white male and is blasted as a racist.

Yes, there is still discrimination in this society.


|>
|> You have Japan, Inc., with his incipient discourses on industrial policy
|> peppering a detective's daily routine ("Funny you should ask that John.
|> You see, in Japan, the kereitsu system is blah blah blah...") to his
|> latest, sexual harassment of men from women in power.
|>
|> Don't know where cloned dinosaurs fit in tho'...or nasty microbes from space-
|>
|> Tse-Sung

--
Brian L. Robinson "Glad tidings abound on the left side of the highway,
but I must drive on the right.

bl...@Virginia.EDU Bloody traffic regulations!" -Joseph C. Lindsay

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