Confessions of the Father of A Prospective College Student
sha...@netusa1.net
jelly common sense until we're all flummoxed" says Time, in a recent
story regarding the presidential elections. I feel that my brain gets
pickled and filleted and jellied and flummoxed, each time I think about
my son's forthcoming college admission. (He will start college in Fall
2002. He just turned sixteen. I have posted in this news-group in the
past. I also have had e-mail exchanges with one or two of the regulars
here.)
2. In some sense, his college admission should not be much of a
problem.
a. He is a strong candidate. His SAT score as a sophomore was 1460. His
PSAT index (of 222 in Indiana) and grades (12.5 out of 12, class rank 1
out of 92) are such that he is almost certain to be a National Merit
Semifinalist and Finalist. He is very likely to get impressive
recommendations from his teachers. He has other interests - music,
basketball, video-games, cross-country, and track.
b. Further, he need NOT go to a name college (i.e., HYPSM) to make me
happy (i.e., to affirm that I have passed my role as a father). Nor am
I trying to live vicariously through him. I am usually very driven in
whatever I do; however, for the most part, I have found it easy to
leave him alone in his college process, so far. About a year ago, I
bought him several SAT books and a video or two. I also had a vocabulary
word e-mailed to him each day. He did almost nothing with these other
than taking a couple of practice SAT tests one weekend. In his shoes, I
would strive hard to raise the SAT score - his scores are 750V and 710
M; his math score especially is very improvable. However, 1460 is
pretty darn good - I would not be disappointed if he did not take SAT
again. He wants to, though. He wants to take SAT II’s also.
c. Refreshingly, he has shown initiative in some aspects of his
education. He couldn't get into the AP Calculus AB in his school,
because of a scheduling conflict. He found a class on the net at
Oklahoma State, is taking it, and doing well.
3. What then is the problem?
a. My son has no idea what he wants to major in. I understand that
this is quite normal. He talks about his interest in philosophy and
English, and his desire to make a living creating video games. (I wonder
how much of this is like a small kid wanting to be a fireman or a
train engineer.) He thinks that engineering or computer science will be
boring - I am not sure how reality-based this is. He has shown a
definite preference to small, liberal arts colleges versus large state
universities. We are talking a lot about Indiana University Honors
College which I hope will be a reasonable compromise. A part of me
wants to see him push his mind to the farthest in the field that
excites him. (I have strong intellectual interests - however, I have
kept them as hobbies, where financial aspect is not a concern.) At the
same time, I would sleep better if he went for something safer (such as
computer science/electrical engineering at Rose Hulman, say.)
b. The money aspect concerns me quite a bit. Depending on what he
decides, he may end up getting a full ride or end up incurring quite a
bit of debt. I am particularly nervous at the possibility of him
incurring quite a debt and majoring in a field with poor income
possibilities. He is talking about double majoring in philosophy and
physics, possibly. The physics part is reassuring to me. Even if it
does not provide good career opportunities in itself, it can definitely
be used as a springboard for several other careers. If a double major
means an extra year as an undergraduate, I am not so crazy about it; in
this case, I would rather he forget the philosophy.
c. We are not likely to qualify for any non-need scholarships. A part
of me wants to focus on the possibility of full rides. I don't know how
to go about doing this. At the same time, I am not sure whether this is
the right thing to do (i.e., whether this is too narrow-minded a
strategy).
d. He wants to apply to a name college to see if he can get in. He may
also decide to attend a name college because it is so. I am not sure
that it is reason enough. Other than this (and preferring small,
liberal-arts colleges), he has not expressed a lot of preferences
regarding his college. Somebody asked him what college atmosphere he
prefers - he simply didn’t know. Perhaps it is too much to expect. We
have not had a lot of input from the school. Again, this may be too
much to expect.
e. I do want him to make the ‘right decision’ (one that turns out OK
later).
f. Obviously, this topic is of a lot of importance to me. I have been
thinking about this for at least the last five years. Perhaps I started
too early.
g. There is of course a ton of information available, what with the
various books, news-groups, and the mailings from colleges, for
instance. Generally, I am an information hound. In this case, the
abundance of information is only confounding me. I find it very hard to
place almost any college in the ‘reject’ pile.
h. I am sure that I am going to get some comment about my getting so
heavily involved, my placing a college in the reject pile, for
instance. The truth is that unless I do this, not much progress will be
made. I do have him review everything, including this posting. I am
determined to give him every legal advantage possible - because that is
how I work. I won’t write an essay for him. However, I will act as his
secretary - address envelopes, lick stamps, and the like. (I am talking
figuratively, of course. I am hoping that most of the applications will
be online.)
i. What particularly flummoxes me is having to answer questions like:
Is he more likely to be pressured into drinking at Miami
of Ohio or Wabash because of the strong fraternity presence or
Centre because it is dry but kids make alcohol runs?
Is crime more of a concern in the cities or in the suburbs?
j. I would like to see a distance learning system that one could
utilize at home or via the local college. Perhaps frequent camps at
different colleges would provide the interaction. Such a thing of
course would completely wreck the present system. I also would like
truly self-paced education. For all the hype, our present educational
system is not innovative enough either in format or content. Let me
explain what I mean by the latter. Great ideas were proposed by
B.F.Skinner, in the study of language, for instance. I have no doubt
that these will turn out to be correct in the long run. However,
currently, these are languishing because, the right kids are not taking
these up. Just about every one of the 3000 or so colleges offer
psychology. However, in place after place, it is the same old thing.
This makes me wonder how much hype is there in other fields. (I can't
believe that my kid would get to work with Steven Jay Gould by going to
NYU or Jimy Carter by going to Emory, for instance.)
4. I would appreciate constructive comments. Thanks.
V. Chandrasekhar
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Raanmed
has no idea what he wants, and yet, according to what you yourself have
written, he seems fairly sure he wants to attend a small college and major in
philosophy or physics, or perhaps both. For a junior in high school, that's
about as decisive as you can expect to get.
Will he spend the rest of his life making a lot of money? That depends
entirely on what he wants to do with his education. It won't matter what his
major is if all he wants to do is go into teaching. He stands a slightly
better chance of making serious bucks if he goes into law, but, again, it won't
matter what he majors in.
Yes, a business school, or an engineering degree might put him on a faster
track to certain kinds of careers, but, your son sounds like the sort of person
who truly wants to stretch his intellect. Young people with that kind of
aptitude are so rare nowadays, why second guess it? A bigger university won't
necessarily offer a better education. Yes, there will be a fatter course
catalogue, but, one person can only attend so many classes, or devour so many
reading lists, no matter how big the campus.
In fact, since the number of genuine liberal arts colleges is much smaller than
the number of universities in this country, your job of winnowing them all into
the proper pile should be much simpler. Frankly, the only variables I can
think of are: 1) geography, 2) diversity, and 3) expense. Geography, because so
few of the top colleges are located outside the Frost Belt, your son may want
to decide right away how important cross-country skiing is to him. Diversity,
because with so many competing interests at stake, it's really easy for a small
school to err in one direction or the other. Anyone who has followed the
wrenching debate about football at Swarthmore, can see how seriously these
intellectual hot houses take getting the temperature just right.
And finally expense. The real question here is, how deep in the hole is daddy
willing to go (assuming minimal merit aid and maximum parental income) for an
education which (in a worst case scenario) may "only" result in a teaching
career? That's something you and your son are going to have to sit down and
grapple with.
My piddling 2cents.
--ron m.
>Subject: Confessions of the Father of A Prospective College Student
>From: sha...@netusa1.net
>Date: 12/25/00 5:43 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <928ij5$8om$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
sha...@netusa1.net
I appreciate your reply.
> It sounds to me like you are not listening. You make it sound as if
your son
> has no idea what he wants, and yet, according to what you yourself
have
> written, he seems fairly sure he wants to attend a small college and
major in
> philosophy or physics, or perhaps both.
Actually, he has said all of the following in the last three months. (I
had him review this list for concurrence, before I posted this.)
"I have no idea what I want to do for a living."
"My ideal job would be to create video games or make movies."
"I am sure that I can prosper in a science based career. I am not sure
I want to".
"Engineering is boring."
"I want to make a lot of money."
"I want to go to a prestigious college that the man in the street will
admire."
He has also said consistantly that he does not want to go into
teaching, certainly not at the pre-college level.
> A bigger university won't
> necessarily offer a better education. Yes, there will be a fatter
course
> catalogue, but, one person can only attend so many classes, or devour
so many
> reading lists, no matter how big the campus.
>
I am assuming that the reference here is to IU. Both of us are thinking
of IU Honors Program as a bargain liberal arts college.
> In fact, since the number of genuine liberal arts colleges is much
smaller than
> the number of universities in this country, your job of winnowing
them all into
> the proper pile should be much simpler. Frankly, the only variables
I can
> think of are: 1) geography, 2) diversity, and 3) expense. Geography,
because so
> few of the top colleges are located outside the Frost Belt, your son
may want
> to decide right away how important cross-country skiing is to him.
You are beginning to lose me a little here. I think that any of the
following will fit the bill for the two categories that he has
expressed and interest in (small, liberal arts / prestigious):
Carleton, Grinnell, Kalamazoo, Earlham, Centre, Macalester, Pomona,
Chicago, Nortwestern, Brown, Princeton, Claremont McKenna
(There is a geographical preference here - closeness to Indiana. Also,
my son may not have a good understanding/definition of what a small,
liberal arts college is. He hated Purdue. He loved Wabash, except for
the single-sex aspect.)
> Diversity,
> because with so many competing interests at stake, it's really easy
for a small
> school to err in one direction or the other. Anyone who has followed
the
> wrenching debate about football at Swarthmore, can see how seriously
these
> intellectual hot houses take getting the temperature just right.
>
I am not sure what we should pay attention here. Politically he is
liberal.
> And finally expense. The real question here is, how deep in the hole
is daddy
> willing to go (assuming minimal merit aid and maximum parental
income) for an
> education which (in a worst case scenario) may "only" result in a
teaching
> career? That's something you and your son are going to have to sit
down and
> grapple with.
This I understand. (By the way, I personally associate no pejorative
connotation to "only teaching". I would love to teach in a small,
liberal arts college - however, we are not talking about me here.) We
both are tempted by the possibility of a full ride or a 3/4 ride at a
place like Case Western Reserve University, say. (I love their up front
policy of announcing how much merit aid for different stat categories.)
Regards.
Secarbatty
the full cost of a small liberal arts college, the best thing to do is to
decide how much you ARE willing to pay, let your son know, and leave the rest
up to him. Whether or not he's willing to borrow money, and, if so, how
much,should be his decision.
Sometimes there are ways to get the money. I know some students who have joined
ROTC in order to get the $$, for example.Other students have enrolled in co-op
programs. Others have deferred college admission for a year or two. Still
others have elected to attend local junior colleges and then transferred to a
more expensive school for the last two years, instead of going away to state U.
for four.
Once you've decided how much you are willing to pay and told your son, I think
all the other choices should be up to him. Personally, I would suggest that if
you can pay, you consider doing so. ..but obviously, that's your decision.
I can tell you, BTW, that I know a French lit major who got a job at one of
the investment banking firms straight out of college and an English major who
got hired by one of the top consulting firms. A high enough gpa and some
practical internships make just about any liberal arts grad from a good school
employable.
Sunsol
> e. I do want him to make the 'right decision' (one that turns out OK
> later).
We all want the best for our kids. We want them to be successful. But there
is only so much a parent can do. At some point you just have to shove them
in the right direction and hope for the best. Sounds like you have done a
good job so far. He can probably go the distance. Develop some faith in him:
you will both feel better. Maybe you do believe in him, but it isn't
coming through in your post.
>
> f. Obviously, this topic is of a lot of importance to me. I have been
> thinking about this for at least the last five years. Perhaps I started
> too early.
No Way!!!!!!!!!! People start taking folic acid and moving to the right
neighborhood before they are even pregnant. Thinking ahead is good.
>
> g. There is of course a ton of information available, what with the
> various books, news-groups, and the mailings from colleges, for
> instance. Generally, I am an information hound. In this case, the
> abundance of information is only confounding me. I find it very hard to
> place almost any college in the 'reject' pile.
No need to put anything in the reject pile. You will probably find that
certain colleges keep coming to the top of the pile.
>
> h. I am sure that I am going to get some comment about my getting so
> heavily involved, my placing a college in the reject pile, for
> instance. >
Being heavily involved is fine as long as you are getting along with your
teenager. Keep the conversation going. We are supposed the raise them and
then let them make this important decision on their own? Hogwash!
> i. What particularly flummoxes me is having to answer questions like:
>
> Is he more likely to be pressured into drinking at Miami
> of Ohio or Wabash because of the strong fraternity presence or
> Centre because it is dry but kids make alcohol runs?
Seems like kids will drink if they want to drink, no matter where you send
them. Do the alcohol education thing now, and then give it up. Ask him what
would he do if? and set up a bunch of drinking situations so he can think
about it before hand. Once he is gone, he will have to make those decisions.
Point out that although it may seem as if "everyone" is drinking, there is
always someone studying, someone studying, and someone watching a movie. He
can choose who to spend his time with.
>
> Is crime more of a concern in the cities or in the suburbs?
Doesn't it go without saying that crime is more of a problem in the city?
>
> j. I would like to see a distance learning system that one could
> utilize at home or via the local college.
You can attend college on the computer now, but I can't direct you to
programs. You miss the college experience though. Part of going to college
is just growing up before joining the work world.
Perhaps frequent camps at
> different colleges would provide the interaction.
Many colleges offer summer programs that high school students can attend. UC
Berkeley does even offers supervision now.
Just about every one of the 3000 or so colleges offer
> psychology. However, in place after place, it is the same old thing.
> This makes me wonder how much hype is there in other fields. (I can't
> believe that my kid would get to work with Steven Jay Gould by going to
> NYU or Jimy Carter by going to Emory, for instance.)
Mostly it is the same stuff, no matter where you go. The students are
different, though. And although others may think it is better to be taught
by the best in the field, I disagree. Fynman (spelling?) was not known as a
great teacher. The best teacher I ever had in college was a TA.
Sunsol
Secarbatty <secar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001226225740...@ng-mj1.aol.com...
> I'm the parent of a college student. I think that, if you aren't willing
to pay
> the full cost of a small liberal arts college, the best thing to do is to
> decide how much you ARE willing to pay, let your son know, and leave the
rest
> up to him.
I disagree with this. I think that money should be a consideration. But
giving it a particular number and having it trump all other considerations
is wrong. Money should be considered along with everthing else. What if his
dream college is only a little more than some artificial limit? That would
put everybody in a wierd position. If there is some real limit, talk about
it. And keep the money conversation going, just like all the others.
Sally
sha...@netusa1.net
> > Maybe you do believe in him, but it isn't coming through in your
post.
> >
He just turned 16. Besides, the two of us are not sure how well things
will turn out. (As I have written, in some sense, it is a no-lose
proposition, other than a few ten thousand dollars.)
> > Perhaps I started too early.
>
> No Way!!!!!!!!!! People start taking folic acid and moving to the
right
> neighborhood before they are even pregnant. Thinking ahead is good.
> >
I understand moving to the right school district. I didn't understand
the folic acid reference. [I take folic acid for high blood pressure.
Are you saying that I have been preparing for my son's college
education in ways I didn't even know? ;-) ]
>> I find it very hard to
> > place almost any college in the 'reject' pile.
>
> No need to put anything in the reject pile. You will probably find
that
> certain colleges keep coming to the top of the pile.
"Dummies" book says to start with a couple of hundred and start
rejecting according to various criteria. I found this very hard to do.
("I can't really reject Wittenberg", "Miami of Ohio IS called the
Public Ivy", "On what basis will I reject Macalester?", "Kenyon is good
and cannot be rejected", "The Wabash visit was exciting. The student
magazines I picked up there were good. This has to be kept in.", etc.)
Psychologically, it was easier for me to pick from the pile rather than
justifying each rejection. This may be a minor difference - however, it
made a difference to me.
> > Is crime more of a concern in the cities or in the suburbs?
>
> Doesn't it go without saying that crime is more of a problem in the
city?
Actually, it does. However, some colleges claim that with better
security arrangements, their city college is actually safer.
> You can attend college on the computer now, but I can't direct you to
> programs. You miss the college experience though. Part of going to
college
> is just growing up before joining the work world.
>
My son is taking Calculus AB on the net (from Oklahoma State). He is
working at his own pace. He is getting tutoring from a retired teacher.
He is learning more from this course than some of the other courses he
took at his school.
Again, as for the 'college experience', is it worth the 100 grand it
could cost? (This is a rhetorical question. At this point in time,
there is no other realistic option other than getting the prestige of a
college behind you, whether a 100 grand college or a 30 grand State U).
> Mostly it is the same stuff, no matter where you go. The students are
> different, though.
I have read that the main reason to go to a prestigious college is that
the fellow students will be better (than if one went to a State U).
(Darccity has expressed this view.) My son has mentioned to me that he
wishes sometimes that he had gone to a more challenging high school -
he would rather be in the top 10% in a very challenging high school
than No. 1 in a not so challenging high school (challenging in the
sense of other students pushing the limit). He does love his school and
his friends, without a doubt. Is getting challenging fellow students
(and possibly making lifelong connections) worth the extra 50 grand or
so - I am not sure.
VC
Chessfreak
decreases the risk of certain birth defects. Of course, only
the mother can take this precaution.
Lynn
<sha...@netusa1.net> wrote in message news:92d01b$b8m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
<Snipped>
> I understand moving to the right school district. I didn't understand
> the folic acid reference. [I take folic acid for high blood pressure.
> Are you saying that I have been preparing for my son's college
> education in ways I didn't even know? ;-) ]
>
Raanmed
>> In fact, since the number of genuine liberal arts colleges is much
>smaller than
>> the number of universities in this country, your job of winnowing
>them all into
>> the proper pile should be much simpler. Frankly, the only variables
>I can
>> think of are: 1) geography, 2) diversity, and 3) expense. Geography,
>because so
>> few of the top colleges are located outside the Frost Belt, your son
>may want
>> to decide right away how important cross-country skiing is to him.
>
>You are beginning to lose me a little here. I think that any of the
>following will fit the bill for the two categories that he has
>expressed and interest in (small, liberal arts / prestigious):
>
>Carleton, Grinnell, Kalamazoo, Earlham, Centre, Macalester, Pomona,
>Chicago, Nortwestern, Brown, Princeton, Claremont McKenna
>
>(There is a geographical preference here - closeness to Indiana. Also,
>my son may not have a good understanding/definition of what a small,
>liberal arts college is. He hated Purdue. He loved Wabash, except for
>the single-sex aspect.)
>
>
That's a great list. Why are you beating yourself over the head?
--Ron
Gyan Doshi
sha...@netusa1.net wrote:
>
> "I have no idea what I want to do for a living."
>
> Actually,neither do I, I have leanings and preferences based on what I
> perceive that field of study to be and the kind of career it will entail.
> And then, I won't really know until I actually step out in the
> marketplace or get an appropriate internship.
But a choice must be made.
The question is what criteria do you use to select ?
Interests - well, personally, I have divese interests and none are
sufficiently prominent to trigger an obvious choice.
"My ideal job would be to create video games or make movies."
Wouldn't it be ? (of course, those two 2 streams require quite different
specific
skills,although both will requre creative juices)
"I am sure that I can prosper in a science based career. I am not sure I
want to".
"Engineering is boring."
This perception (right or wrong) is most probably due to inexperience in
such
a career. Its best to confirm it before making a decision about a major.
(obviously from different types of working scientists and engineers with
variable years of experience)
"I want to go to a prestigious college that the man in the street will
admire."
hmm, career-wise , change that to
"I want to go to a prestigious college that the interviewer in the chair
will admire."
(well, it shouldn't matter what lawyers think of UT as an engineering
school as much
as what those in the engineering community think of it)
(There is a geographical preference here.....
Well , I've been in the US for 4 months now.(at Purdue)
Except for the weather, I don't really comprehend the concern for
geographical
preference in the choice of a US college applicant.
Could someone explain this to me ?
Gyan
sha...@netusa1.net
> >Carleton, Grinnell, Kalamazoo, Earlham, Centre, Macalester, Pomona,
> >Chicago, Nortwestern, Brown, Princeton, Claremont McKenna
> That's a great list. Why are you beating yourself over the head?
1. Not having a truly low cost option (as at least one of the options)
bothers me as does not including Rice. However, Rice, College M, and IU
Honors can be added to the list bringing it to 15, a decent number at
this point in time, about 11 months before sending the bulk of the
applications out. College M is a college (unknown now) that will
contact my son and offer a full ride, if he lists it as his first
choice in the National Merit Scholarship paperwork. The list has plenty
of reaches. I suppose IU, College M, and a couple of the others may be
considered safeties.
2. The next big problem is whittling these down to a more manageable 6
or 7. However, we definitely have time for this. I don't know what
criteria he will use - perhaps, visits will play a big part. Most
likely, he will take a summer course at one of the nearby colleges in
the list.
3. I would like to see Rose-Hulman included; however, my son clearly
does not want to study engineering at the present time and Rose is out.
Alleged ugly campus or not, CWRU has impressed me with the material
they have sent and with their up front merit aid policy. However, there
are only so many slots.
4. Here is to the 15 colleges in my son's list ;-)
Raanmed
>(There is a geographical preference here.....
>
>Well , I've been in the US for 4 months now.(at Purdue)
>
>Except for the weather, I don't really comprehend the concern for
>geographical
>preference in the choice of a US college applicant.
>Could someone explain this to me ?
>
>Gyan
>
>
I think weather is a big part of it. If Florida, Texas and Southern California
had built more small, liberal arts colleges when they had the chance, I doubt
if places like Williams (MA) Wesleyan (CT) and Middlebury (VT) would be nearly
as popular with people outside the Northeast. Nearly 20% of the Wesleyan Class
of 2004 hails from what could loosely be called the Sunbelt.
--Ron M.
sha...@netusa1.net
> > "I have no idea what I want to do for a living."
> > "I am sure that I can prosper in a science based career. I am not
sure I want to".
> > "Engineering is boring."
He probably will spend a couple of years "finding himself". A small,
liberal arts college probably is a great place to do so. I have no
problem with this. However, I'd rather not run up the tab while this is
happening.
> "I want to go to a prestigious college that the man in the street will
> admire."
I am not impressed with this argument either - this has been one of my
concerns. However, this is a barely 16 year old talking. [However,
hadn't Condoleeza Rice finished her sophomore year in college, by the
time SHE was 16? ;-) ] This is how he feels - it is not a very strong
desire.
> hmm, career-wise , change that to
> "I want to go to a prestigious college that the interviewer in the
chair
> will admire."
He has been shielded from the real world. He is not thinking that far
ahead to a job, yet; I don't expect him to. It is nice to hold on to
the idealism and carefreeness, at least a little while longer. (He
wanted 'Philosophy for Dummies' for Christmas, among other things and
reads Classics, Kafka, Rand, and Kant for fun, before he found Kant
boring and gave up.] However, I would rather that all these happen at a
rate lower than $30,000 a year.
> Except for the weather, I don't really comprehend the concern for
> geographical
> preference in the choice of a US college applicant.
If my son went to Pomona or Claremont McKenna, his mother and I
probably will see him two or three times during his freshman year, if
that many. If he went to Earlham or Kalamazoo, we could see him every
month possibly. If he got sick, we could bring him home, get him
better, and take him back. If he had a really good reason to go to a
college farther away, it will compensate for missing out on these,
though.
VC
John O'Hara
Believe me, as someone who attended a very respectable "State U." and
then transferred to a private school, the difference in environment between
a large public institution and the truly academic, high-level private school
experience is staggering.
John
<sha...@netusa1.net> wrote in message news:92d01b$b8m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
Raanmed
>> Except for the weather, I don't really comprehend the concern for
>> geographical
>> preference in the choice of a US college applicant.
>
>If my son went to Pomona or Claremont McKenna, his mother and I
>probably will see him two or three times during his freshman year, if
>that many. If he went to Earlham or Kalamazoo, we could see him every
>month possibly. If he got sick, we could bring him home, get him
>better, and take him back. If he had a really good reason to go to a
>college farther away, it will compensate for missing out on these,
>though.
>
>VC
>
Actually, there was a story in the NYTimes not long ago that supports you in
this. It seems that today's students are much more likely to be in constant
touch with their parents than students a generation ago. But, wouldn't e-mail
be sufficient? I mean, I can't think of a better way to reduce your fancy
liberal arts college experience to the level of - a commuter college - than to
show up at his dorm every month. Sure, you're not trying to play
"self-fulfilling prophecy", here?
--Ron M.
Self Made Man
I know you asked for constructive criticism, but, frankly, this entire
post somewhat angers me. It seems as if you have taken the entire (or at
least too much) initiative and influence in your son's both school and
future college careers. I will assume (perhaps wrongly) for the moment
that you are of South Asian (Indian Subcontinent) origin. I am of
Pakistani origin (Pakistanis and Indians are the same really) and despite
the influence that our culture (India's and Pakistan's) puts on education,
succeeding, and wealth, I am completely responsible for conducting my
college application process. Not that my parents don't care, I strongly
feel this is something I must and should do on my own. I even secretly
paid for the application fees for the colleges from the money I make
during my school-nights and weekend job so that it wouldn't affect my
family at all. Yes, that's right, a Pakistani boy who actually holds a
job during school to help provide for the family. (Oh in our culture
that's taboo right? If I don't get as much study time as possible, I won't
do super well in school, make $$$ in the future) Well, that's wrong, my
money driven friend. My parents initially refused to let me work (b/c
they feared that it would put a strain on my academics, the culture thing
coming in), but when family expenses got to a zenith, I demanded to help
out (the stress and hard work required to support the family was harming
both my dad's and mom's health). I'm sure you know nothing of hardship
(though probably because you worked real hard to have a good life which is
quite respectable and understandable), you are probably the model
doctor/engineer/lotsa $$$ making guy.
I've been able to hold a job, study for the SATs (with no help from my
parents except getting me a library card so that I could go and borrow SAT
study books from the library and I signed myself up for A Word A Day
e-mail) and scores in the 770-800 range for my SAT IIs and my SAT Math and
Verbal, also have State and National Awards in the Social Studies (among a
ton of other impressice awards). For all my accomplishments I was the
primary motivator towards working for them. My parents gave me the
necessities of life and a peaceful environment for me to flourish in and I
am grateful. They also encouraged me (at the extent of words, speech,
advice, but never any direct action or influence because I didn't need
it). I know that they will help me the most they can for the private
colleges that I wish to go to. (My dream is Harvard) And the fact that you
are going to fill out data forms and compose envelopes for him is
sickening. I have stayed up nights completing my applications. It
completely sucks that I'll have to compete against packaged and pampered
applicants like your son and his college applicant dad. I don't mean to
launch a tirade or whine but I just had to get this off my chest.
Though I despise you and your son (and maybe that's stemming from my
possible jealousy or selfishness of wanting to get into a top school), I
honestly hold no hard feelings. I realize that you do wish the best for
your child (that's innate in all human beings).
sha...@netusa1.net
> It seems that today's students are much more likely to be in constant
> touch with their parents than students a generation ago. But,
wouldn't e-mail
> be sufficient?
The idea is to see his face, hear his laughter, take him to one of his
favorite restaurants, and see a play, a movie, or a sporting event with
him - in short continue to enjoy his company. We may well not do it
this often - however, it is nice to have this option.
> I mean, I can't think of a better way to reduce your fancy
> liberal arts college experience to the level of - a commuter college -
than to
> show up at his dorm every month.
Assuming that a parent indeed does this every month, what happens most
certainly is NOT a commuter college experience. Let's have a sense of
proportion here. In fact, it is this kind of exaggeration that makes me
suspect any advice given.
Each family has the right to live their life any way they want to. I
know a dad whose daughter was very homesick at IU. He would pick her up
every Friday evening and bring her home and take her back every Monday
morning. It was like a three hour drive each way. It was their lives to
live any way they wanted to.
Sunsol
>
> He has been shielded from the real world. He is not thinking that far
> ahead to a job, yet; I don't expect him to. It is nice to hold on to
> the idealism and carefreeness, at least a little while longer. (He
> wanted 'Philosophy for Dummies' for Christmas, among other things and
> reads Classics, Kafka, Rand, and Kant for fun, before he found Kant
> boring and gave up.] However, I would rather that all these happen at a
> rate lower than $30,000 a year.
Isn't there some middle road? A college education that costs less than
$30,000 but does cost something?
>
> > Except for the weather, I don't really comprehend the concern for
> > geographical
> > preference in the choice of a US college applicant.
Some kids get homesick. Others have wonderful relationships with there
parents and/or siblings. Why make it hard to visit? If getting home on
weekends makes college more fun, why not? I know many kids going to college
a few blocks from where they went to high school. If it suits them, it seems
fine.
Sally
Sunsol
> >If my son went to Pomona or Claremont McKenna, his mother and I
> >probably will see him two or three times during his freshman year, if
> >that many. If he went to Earlham or Kalamazoo, we could see him every
> >month possibly. If he got sick, we could bring him home, get him
> >better, and take him back. If he had a really good reason to go to a
> >college farther away, it will compensate for missing out on these,
> >though.
> >
> >VC
Yes, I agree completely.
> Actually, there was a story in the NYTimes not long ago that supports you
in
> this. It seems that today's students are much more likely to be in
constant
> touch with their parents than students a generation ago. But, wouldn't
e-mail
> be sufficient?
Email is sufficient after living together for 18 years? I don't think so.
More like frustrating.
Sally
Sunsol
> post.
> > >
>
> He just turned 16. Besides, the two of us are not sure how well things
> will turn out. (As I have written, in some sense, it is a no-lose
> proposition, other than a few ten thousand dollars.)
Believing in him is different than trusting him. You trust him after he had
proven he can do it. You believe in him when he is doing well, is going in
the right direction, and you expect him to be able to make good decisions.
>
> > > Perhaps I started too early.
> >
> > No Way!!!!!!!!!! People start taking folic acid and moving to the
> right
> > neighborhood before they are even pregnant. Thinking ahead is good.
> > >
>
> I understand moving to the right school district. I didn't understand
> the folic acid reference. [I take folic acid for high blood pressure.
> Are you saying that I have been preparing for my son's college
> education in ways I didn't even know? ;-) ]
>
> >> I find it very hard to
> > > place almost any college in the 'reject' pile.
> >
> > No need to put anything in the reject pile. You will probably find
> that
> > certain colleges keep coming to the top of the pile.
>
> "Dummies" book says to start with a couple of hundred and start
> rejecting according to various criteria. I found this very hard to do.
> ("I can't really reject Wittenberg", "Miami of Ohio IS called the
> Public Ivy", "On what basis will I reject Macalester?", "Kenyon is good
> and cannot be rejected", "The Wabash visit was exciting. The student
> magazines I picked up there were good. This has to be kept in.", etc.)
>
> Psychologically, it was easier for me to pick from the pile rather than
> justifying each rejection. This may be a minor difference - however, it
> made a difference to me.
I agree with you. The Dummy book is wrong. At least for people like you and
me.
>
>
> > > Is crime more of a concern in the cities or in the suburbs?
> >
> > Doesn't it go without saying that crime is more of a problem in the
> city?
>
> Actually, it does. However, some colleges claim that with better
> security arrangements, their city college is actually safer.
The campus itself is often safe. But compare the crime rate on the Berkeley
campus to the crime rate in the city of Berkeley. Very different numbers.
The college can't control what goes on in the city. Maybe a city college is
actually safer, but that isn't the whole story. Kids spend time off campus,
too.
>
> > You can attend college on the computer now, but I can't direct you to
> > programs. You miss the college experience though. Part of going to
> college
> > is just growing up before joining the work world.
> >
>
> My son is taking Calculus AB on the net (from Oklahoma State). He is
> working at his own pace. He is getting tutoring from a retired teacher.
> He is learning more from this course than some of the other courses he
> took at his school.
Maybe this works for the more ordinary classes. But what if he wants to
learn pomology or folklore? And what about the labs? I think that some net
classes must be good. But studying with friends and visiting with the
professor during office hours have a certain value.
>
> Again, as for the 'college experience', is it worth the 100 grand it
> could cost? (This is a rhetorical question. At this point in time,
> there is no other realistic option other than getting the prestige of a
> college behind you, whether a 100 grand college or a 30 grand State U).
This is a big question. I have asked myself many times what the college
experience is worth. Is the experience at an ivy is really worth that much
more than the experience at the local U? If we really wanted to save money,
we wouldn't have kids in the first place. How much is the 'offsping
experience' worth? At least you get to choose a college. :)
>
> > Mostly it is the same stuff, no matter where you go. The students are
> > different, though.
>
> I have read that the main reason to go to a prestigious college is that
> the fellow students will be better (than if one went to a State U).
> (Darccity has expressed this view.) My son has mentioned to me that he
> wishes sometimes that he had gone to a more challenging high school -
> he would rather be in the top 10% in a very challenging high school
> than No. 1 in a not so challenging high school (challenging in the
> sense of other students pushing the limit).
I think your son is wise.
He does love his school and
> his friends, without a doubt. Is getting challenging fellow students
> (and possibly making lifelong connections) worth the extra 50 grand or
> so - I am not sure.
I am not sure either. But you don't have to decide right now. I think a
decision will be easier when you actually have offers on the table.
Sally
Sunsol
Sally
John O'Hara <jpo...@buffalo.edu> wrote in message
news:Omu26.71749$7g.83...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
Gyan Doshi
Sunsol wrote:
> >
> > > Except for the weather, I don't really comprehend the concern for
> > > geographical
> > > preference in the choice of a US college applicant.
>
> Some kids get homesick. Others have wonderful relationships with there
> parents and/or siblings.
> Why make it hard to visit?
True, but I don't think one should choose Harvard over Yale or
UF over UT mainly bcoz you stay near Cambridge or Gainsville.
I think the fours or more years of undergraduate studies should be a
time spent at an institution where your fundamental educational interests
are satisfied and the environment conducive to your overall fulfillment.
Gyan
Raanmed
;)
--ron
sha...@netusa1.net
Contact the universities that you have applied to (including Harvard),
give them the URL to this thread, point them to your posting and
identify yourself as the author, and see how they feel about it.
John O'Hara
racist. Your obvious jealousy doesn't help the situation any.
I disagree with the original poster's (to my mind) excessive involvement
in his son's college choices as well, but your elitist and ignorant attitude
just shows me how little an SAT score has to do with wisdom.
Me.
"Self Made Man" <selfma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:selfmademan01-2...@adsl-76-144-43.msy.bellsouth.net...
Self Made Man
If it is racist, then it is racist against my own background and
heritage. I am of Pakistani/Indian origin as well, and I was not trying
to say that his helping his child was racially/culturally motivated. My
emotions (and stress stemming from this whole process) has blinded me and
I apologize. It is indeed hypocritical and there is some
self-contradiction, yet I was trying to be honest with my opinions.
I wasn't thinking straightly or rationally. Sorry, VC and other
soc.college.admissions posters, this place should be a friendly, community
oriented, and helpful group and I disrupted that.
In article <iXO26.84553$7g.89...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, "John O'Hara"
Self Made Man
My emotions (and stress stemming from this whole process) has blinded
me and I apologize. It is indeed hypocritical and there is some
self-contradiction, yet I was trying to be honest with my opinions.
I wasn't thinking straightly or rationally. Sorry, VC and other
soc.college.admissions posters, this place should be a friendly, community
oriented, and helpful group and I disrupted that.
Self Made Man
for my improvement as a human being and a person of society, what did I
say in a wrong or in an insulting manner and how should I have said it in
an objective and candid manner. I am trying to be serious here not
sarcastic.
DCG
>From: selfma...@yahoo.com (Self Made Man)
>Date: 12/28/00 18:29 Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <selfmademan01-2...@adsl-76-144-43.msy.bellsouth.net>
You apologized, quickly and graciously. Let it go. You have my
congratulations for being industrious, getting a job, and aiming for
self-sufficiency, without expecting your parents to do everything for you. I
think your father has raised a fine son, and you do not have to grovel for
anyone else or to please someone else's inflated ego. Check with your own dad
and you'll find he'll agree. :-)
You also are entitled to stating your opinion without expecting someone to
retaliate against you. Anyone who does that has a problem.
I would also agree that parents have a tendency to want to "micro-manage" their
children. An admissions official at UNC-CH was quoted as having observed that
very troubling aspect of the college admissions process in this country at the
moment.
I am a parent whose child declared that he would be happy and fulfilled a
continent away. This is a sacrifice we have made, and after one semester, we
see the results in our child's happiness, success, and excitement with his
studies, new companions, and new environment. My parents likewise made the
same kind of sacrifice with their children.
It is up to each family to determine what it is willing or able to do with its
offspring. Not everyone has the same kind of economic of emotional equipment,
and children's personalities (and their parents) may vary. What some families
value, or their standards, may differ (this is not to say that one family is
superior to another.)
Again, you have apologized are entitled to move on with peace of mind. Plenty
of arguments go on over the INTERNET, and 99.9 percent of them are riduculous
and pointless. Young folks are entitled to a little of the proverbial "piss
and vinegar" temperament, American-style. We are in North America, after all,
and not elsewhere.
So enjoy the New Year and congratulations on past success. Good luck in the
future. You deserve it!
DCG
onnix
>If my son went to Pomona or Claremont McKenna, his mother and I
>probably will see him two or three times during his freshman year, if
>that many. If he went to Earlham or Kalamazoo, we could see him every
>month possibly. If he got sick, we could bring him home, get him
>better, and take him back. If he had a really good reason to go to a
>college farther away, it will compensate for missing out on these,
>though.
>
It sounds to me like you are sheltering your kid waaayyy too much.. If he
gets sick daddy will come and take care of everything? Why don't you let
him tough it out by himself. thats what college is for. Im sure whatever
college he goes to will have a great medical central. What happens in the
real world if hes going to.. get sick. are you always going to be there for
him?
Sunsol
. But, wouldn't e-mail
> be sufficient? I mean, I can't think of a better way to reduce your fancy
> liberal arts college experience to the level of - a commuter college -
than to
> show up at his dorm every month. >
You can't have a commuter college experience without commuting. Some kids
love having their parents show up at the dorm. They get to see their parents
without having to spend all that time on the road.
Sally
Sunsol
> >better, and take him back. If he had a really good reason to go to a
> >college farther away, it will compensate for missing out on these,
> >though.
> >
>
>
>
> It sounds to me like you are sheltering your kid waaayyy too much.. If he
> gets sick daddy will come and take care of everything? Why don't you let
> him tough it out by himself. thats what college is for. Im sure whatever
> college he goes to will have a great medical central. What happens in the
> real world if hes going to.. get sick. are you always going to be there
for
> him?
That is what parents are for. When a kid gets sick, they take care of them.
Nobody wants to be a nurse anymore, so if you need comfort measures, head
for home. Who is to say what is too much sheltering? If the people involved
are happy with the situation, why criticize?
Sally
Raanmed
Sally, I have two words for you: GIRL FRIEND (or Significant Other, as the case
may be)
--Ron
>
Sunsol
> >> >If he got sick, we could bring him home, get him
> >> >better, and take him back. If he had a really good reason to go to a
> >> >college farther away, it will compensate for missing out on these,
> >> >though.
case
> may be)
>
> --Ron
Yes, a significant other is a good alternative for providing comfort in a
time of illness. If you have an SO. If 'e is available and willing. What
percentage of first-year students have coupled up, do you suppose? I do know
some freshpeople with SOs. But they go to a different college. So they would
not be available for nurse duty.
Sally
Secarbatty
...and you said it far better than I could have.
sha...@netusa1.net
onnix
remember the son... you know.. the other person whos kinda involved in this
whole going to college thing.
Self Made Man
I mean, I realize that I did say some stuff in a quite bad manner, I
wanted advice on how I should have said it in a non-insulting manner. I
was sincere (not sarcastic) in my statement that I wanted advice on how to
voice opinions in an objective manner.
We're wasting too much energy on the remarks that I now regret. Let's get
back to helping others with the college admission process.
Can we all please forget about that bad posting?
Back to questions about college:
One question, on the mid-year school report, I have 4 AP classes, one
honors, and 2 other elective classes. I received 1 B and all A's. Will
that 1 B kill my chances?
I found 10 Real SATs to be a great prep book. What I studied was one
vocab prep book (from my experience, there really are no good prep books
for critical reading passages, it is my guess that critical reading
ability develops from the student's challenges from the English classes at
school) amd I studied one math rules book. Are there any other good prep
sources I should use? What can I do for critical reading other than read
well and do well in English at school? I should start studying for the
1/27/01 SAT.
I am somewhat worried about alcohol and its life on college campuses. I
am by no means one who advocates prohibition, and I can deal with being
exposed to it. However, I don't want to drink it, but I fear that 1) it
set me up to be the absolute odd one out or 2) I'll have to drink to fit
in. I've never tasted it but I have smelled it before and it smells
awful. It also kills brain cells I have heard. Why then can it have such
a huge presence in the college world, even high school world? As you can
see, my home and high school life have (by my own doing stemming from my
parents' advice and my personal feelings/habits) sheltered me greatly.
I've heard of some group called Straight Edge on campuses as a refuge for
those who do not wish to drink and to engage in those effects from being
drunk. What is this Straight Edge group? Is it a good organization for
those are religious?
onnix
other.... I swear you could mistake them for aryan youth sometimes. Only
join them if you like moshing and beating the crap out of each other to the
soothing sounds of christian punk rawk and shaving your head.
Self Made Man wrote in message ...
Sunsol
> I am somewhat worried about alcohol and its life on college campuses. I
> am by no means one who advocates prohibition, and I can deal with being
> exposed to it. However, I don't want to drink it,
Some colleges have themed dorms. One dorm is for people into arts & crafts.
Another is multiethnic. And yet another is substance free. Maybe you should
look for such a living situation if not drinking is important to you. There
would be a whole group of like-minded people to do things with.
If you don't want to drink, it is easiest if you just find other things to
do. Check out the school newspaper for happenings on Friday and Saturday
night. Ask someone or a group of people to join you. Or go alone. Then,
after it is over, go to bed close to the same time you go to bed other
nights. People thrive on schedules, although teenagers don't like to admit
it.
If you decide to go to a drinking site, and don't want to drink, you can
just say No Thank You. Get something else to drink, so you have something in
your hand. If someone insists, ask if they have any Port, then laugh at your
own silly joke. Or accept, and don't drink it. Or, make one drink last all
night.
But, I really think that it is much better idea to find people who think the
way you do and spend time with them. You will have a lot more fun. Watching
people get drunk is a fun spectator sport once maybe.
As to why teenagers drink. Maybe to rebel against their parents. Maybe to
experiment. And they drink too much because they like to take risks. I won't
name a particular sex because it would upset Gabe too much. But a certain
sex likes to drive to fast and drink too much. If they can't be violent
themselves, they like to watch violent movies and watch violent games.
Sally
DCG
>Message-id: <selfmademan01-2...@adsl-76-144-43.msy.bellsouth.net>
>
>
>I mean, I realize that I did say some stuff in a quite bad manner, I
>wanted advice on how I should have said it in a non-insulting manner.
Ignore the intemperate bully. You're a youth, and learned your lesson. For
the grown-up navel gazer, there's no excuse (that includes me and my own navel
gazing as well.)
DCG
DCG
>One question, on the mid-year school report, I have 4 AP classes, one
>honors, and 2 other elective classes. I received 1 B and all A's. Will
>that 1 B kill my chances?
>
It's not worth worrying about, but just about anything and everything can be
used as a "tie breaker". Hopefully you will apply to schools that are "good
matches" for you and your interest.
>I found 10 Real SATs to be a great prep book. What I studied was one
>vocab prep book (from my experience, there really are no good prep books
>for critical reading passages, it is my guess that critical reading
>ability develops from the student's challenges from the English classes at
>school)
And the kind of amount of reading one does all of his or her life.
amd I studied one math rules book. Are there any other good prep
>sources I should use? What can I do for critical reading other than read
>well and do well in English at school?
I think, at this point, one should just see what happens and not agonize about
it.
I should start studying for the
>1/27/01 SAT.
>
>I am somewhat worried about alcohol and its life on college campuses. I
>am by no means one who advocates prohibition, and I can deal with being
>exposed to it. However, I don't want to drink it, but I fear that 1) it
>set me up to be the absolute odd one out or 2) I'll have to drink to fit
>in. I've never tasted it but I have smelled it before and it smells
>awful. It also kills brain cells I have heard. Why then can it have such
>a huge presence in the college world, even high school world?
Because it has a huge presence in the adult world. Couple that with hormones
and new-found freedom, and there it is!
As you can
>see, my home and high school life have (by my own doing stemming from my
>parents' advice and my personal feelings/habits) sheltered me greatly.
>
Not necessarily. I don't see it.
>I've heard of some group called Straight Edge on campuses as a refuge for
>those who do not wish to drink and to engage in those effects from being
>drunk. What is this Straight Edge group? Is it a good organization for
>those are religious?
>
I don't see any reason for a support group. Find friends with whom you're
comfortable, and go from there.
DCG
DCG
DCG
Kath
>> >probably will see him two or three times during his freshman year, if
>> >that many. If he went to Earlham or Kalamazoo, we could see him every
>> >month possibly. If he got sick, we could bring him home, get him
>> >better, and take him back. If he had a really good reason to go to a
>> >college farther away, it will compensate for missing out on these,
>> >though.
Whose needs are being considered here -- yours or your son's? This is his
time, not yours. If you see him two or three times during the year, be
grateful. After the first summer following freshman year, few parents see
much of their now adult kids because they're taking jobs or traveling or
staying at school to study or taking extra courses, going home with their
new friends, all as they should. Give the kid a break! And the idea of
beinging him home if he gets sick so you can nurse him back to health is
almost too sickening to contemplate. Of course, if your son truly desires
more contact with you, that's fine but let it be his choice, not you laying
a guilt trip on him. When I was a freshman, the parents of one of my
roommates picked her up every Friday afternoon and returned her Sunday
evening. She never got to participate in any weekend social activities or
even date. She dropped out before the end of the first semester because
her "parents missed her". Please!
There are many valuable benefits to be gained from attending college a good
distance from home (if that is agreeable to your child -- some are not
ready to go far away and that's fine as long as it's his choice alone).
These students learn about other areas of the country which is especially
interesting if they come from an locality where the seasons are generally
the same year-round. They are more likely to be surrounded by a diverse
student population. They are more likely to have professors with more
diverse backgrounds. Most importantly, a student far from home is far more
likely to reach out and meet and become friends with people he may not
attempt to meet if it's too easy for him to stay within the comfort of his
old friends and to try new activities he may not try if it's too easy for
him to just hang out as he did in high school. The student far from home
is more likely to spend some of his vacation time with his new friends in
the part of the country where they are from.
As an added bonus and something all four of my kids who attended colleges
out of their home state observed as they compared themselves to their
stay-at-home friends, a student far from home is far more likely to find a
career interest more challenging than those chosen by students who stay
near home. We don't know why that is but the far-from-home students appear
to be more ambitious about their futures and chosen fields of endeavor than
the home-town students. I suspect the answers lay in the fact that the
far-from-home students are almost forced to be more curious and seeking and
feel freer to be so.
Does anyone else agree?
--
Kath
Kath
>Some kids love having their parents show up at the dorm. They get to see
their >parents without having to spend all that time on the road.
If you think this is true for more than the occasional severely homesick or
depressed student, you are delusional. Of course, an occasional visit from
parents is usually always welcome, but more than that is ridiculous and
unfairly restricts the student from learning and appreciating the joys of
true independence (and that goes for the parents also, some of whom need to
learn to let go).
--
Kath
Kath
them.
>Nobody wants to be a nurse anymore, so if you need comfort measures, head
>for home. Who is to say what is too much sheltering? If the people
involved
>are happy with the situation, why criticize?
This is what parents do until the child graduates from high school. After
that, the kid is on his/her own. Otherwise, you end up with husbands who
fully expect their wives to also nurse them when they are sick. As a
parent, you need to be certain "the people involved are [TRULY] happy with
the situation" and you are not encouraging your child to feel guilty and
give in to YOUR needs. To bring an adult child home from college during
times of illness (short of a truly serious illness or surgery) is
counterproductive to him/her achieving the true maturity required of
adults.
--
Kath
Kath
>some freshpeople with SOs. But they go to a different college. So they
would
>not be available for nurse duty.
Who is going to perform "nurse duty" when this kid has a job at IBM,
Microsoft, a school, a bank, etc.? College is preparation for Real Life --
let them grow up already!
--
Kath
Kath
>set me up to be the absolute odd one out or 2) I'll have to drink to fit
>in. I've never tasted it but I have smelled it before and it smells
>awful. It also kills brain cells I have heard. Why then can it have such
>a huge presence in the college world, even high school world?
No one has to drink alcohol to fit in anywhere; it is strictly a personal
choice. For those who are too shy to actually decline offers of alcohol,
it is easy to either hold a cup of beer or other alcoholic beverage without
actually drinking it or to drink any non-alcoholic beverage that resembles
an alcoholic one. There is no necessity to join a group such as Straight
Edge unless that is something you really want to do.
By the way, moderate drinking of alcohol, especially when combined with
food, does not kill brain cells and some studies indicate it may even have
real health benefits. This is not an excuse for drinking but you need to
be aware that alcohol does not have to be a deadly or even dangerous drug.
--
Kath
S. Daniel Carter
sha...@netusa1.net wrote on 12/25/00 5:43 PM:
> Is he more likely to be pressured into drinking at Miami of Ohio or Wabash
> because of the strong fraternity presence or Centre because it is dry but kids
> make alcohol runs?
It is our experience that the alcohol culture is present at nearly all
colleges and universities (even ones you might not suspect). There were a
total of 134,779 alcohol violations resulting in arrests or disciplinary
referrals on campus in 1999.
You should ask whether or not the schools you are seriously considering have
some type of "parental notification" policy for when students get into
serious alcohol or drug problems, as well as what type of sanctions will be
imposed. You can get more information about this on our web site at...
http://campussafety.org/resources/parental/index.html
> Is crime more of a concern in the cities or in the suburbs?
Most violence, approximately 80 percent (according to victimization studies
conducted by the Campus Violence Prevention Center at Towson State
University), on college and university campuses is student on student and is
therefore independent of the school's location. Alcohol is often a factor.
Campus crime statistics for approximately 6,300 institutions of
postsecondary education can be reviewed at...
http://www.ope.ed.gov/security/Search.asp
These statistics will contain reports for the campus itself, and beginning
with 1999 off-campus areas like fraternity houses or remote classrooms as
well as "public property" within and adjacent to the campus.
Any school your son formally requests admissions information from will also
be required, under the federal Jeanne Clery Act, to provide you with copies
of their security policies and latest crime statistics as well.
Obviously certain urban institutions will be have crime problems in the
areas surrounding them, and you should inspect the area and coverage of
crime in the local newspaper for any schools seriously being considered.
A crime analysis for areas surrounding campuses is available on the web
at...
http://www.apbnews.com/safetycenter/family/campus/
This web site uses a formula to calculate the risk of future crimes in grids
surrounding campuses.
I hope that this information will be useful to you and help your child have
a safer college experience.
********************************
S. Daniel Carter, Vice President
Security On Campus, Inc.
http://campussafety.org
e-mail:sdca...@campussafety.org
S. Daniel Carter
SUN...@prodigy.net wrote on 12/27/00 8:24 AM:
>> Is crime more of a concern in the cities or in the suburbs?
>
> Doesn't it go without saying that crime is more of a problem in the city?
No, because for the campus itself the dangers are often the same regardless
of location and are usually alcohol related.
Jeanne Clery's family learned this lesson the hard way. When she was
considering where to go to school they decided against Tulane in urban New
Orleans because of a co-ed who was murdered in her off campus apartment.
Instead she went to Lehigh in rural Pennsylvania because they thought it
would be safer. Towards the end of her freshman year she was sexually
assaulted & murdered by another student she didn't know who was there to
burglarize her room.
He'd entered her residence hall, and room through a propped open and
unlocked door respectively. Why did students prop the outside doors open and
leave their doors unlocked? They thought they were in a safe place.
What they didn't know was that there had been at least 38 violent crimes on
the campus in the 3 years before the murder. This type of crime continues
today, although under a federal law named in memory of Jeanne Clery the
colleges have to tell their students about them now.
The mere fact that you assume an "urban" institution is more dangerous than
a "rural" one is itself a substantial danger as approximately 80 percent of
campus violence is student on student.
Sunsol
> >> Is crime more of a concern in the cities or in the suburbs?
> >
> > Doesn't it go without saying that crime is more of a problem in the
city?
>
> No, because for the campus itself the dangers are often the same
regardless
> of location and are usually alcohol related.
>
> Jeanne Clery's family learned this lesson the hard way. When she was
> considering where to go to school they decided against Tulane in urban New
> Orleans because of a co-ed who was murdered in her off campus apartment.
>
> Instead she went to Lehigh in rural
I see your point, however, I still think students are more likely to get
mugged if they go to Tulane than if they go to Lehigh.
Sally