Computer Science Majopr - Emphasis Web Design???
evening_shade
Gun" in web design. I am trying to plan now for next year and any
information would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
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alin
Sorry, but no reputed computer science program is going to teach you how to
write web pages. Computer science is off some other things completely
unrelated to web pages. You should look for graphics and communications
type of major to learn web pages.
If you cannot read the HTML and XML definition and learn for yourself, you
definitely do not want to major in computer science.
"evening_shade" <evenin...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:GirW8.66985$wj4.5...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
out west
I have a daughter who does full web design now as a 16 year old (she just
got paid by a local business for her design for them and they were so happy
they recommended her to another small company). She is interested in graphic
design/computer graphics- a totally different field than CS. She puts out
her own magazine with advertising and everything and gets most people in the
school to buy it from her (for 50 cents and gets all supplies donated) - the
little entrepreneur. She also was the web master for the high school
thespian web site.
If you're interested in web design you may be more interested in
advertising/ computer graphics/graphic design. My daughter taught herself
all the HTML, all the basic programming , C++, etc. out of books from the
library and various books we bought her....and she's a GIRL! j/k
PS Of course, her SAT is only 1090- who cares, she'll be supporting us all
by the time she's 30. ;) Byer
"alin" <al...@dlin.d2g.com> wrote in message
news:j4sW8.39$AL6...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Ram Lau
"Top
> Gun" in web design. I am trying to plan now for next year and any
> information would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks!
I don't mean to be sarcastic but I believe private schools like DeVry and
ITT-Tech will provide you better web/graphic design training. And it won't
take you more than a year (very optimistically speaking...) to teach
yourself everything about web design.
--
Ram Lau
ram...@cc.gatech.edu
Ram Lau
all
> by the time she's 30. ;) Byer
No joke. What kind of college does she want to go?
--
Ram Lau
ram...@cc.gatech.edu
alin
"out west" <by...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:LxsW8.8928$A43.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> advertising/ computer graphics/graphic design. My daughter taught herself
> all the HTML, all the basic programming , C++, etc. out of books from the
> library and various books we bought her....and she's a GIRL! j/k
> PS Of course, her SAT is only 1090- who cares, she'll be supporting us
all
> by the time she's 30. ;) Byer
>
Maybe she needs to be seriously encourage to take up computer science. Not
a lot of people in high school age can self teach C++ programming. This
field of study is in desperately need of female students, so criteria to be
accepted will be much easier for her than for guys. Is she going to be
junior or senior?
A number of things to consider for CS major
1) in terms of study, cs is really only a small branch of math in disguise
(and a lot easier than the "pure math"). HS (K12) math curriculum has
largely ignore this field of math, so even if she's not strong in high
school algebra, she may still find CS parts of math interesting. Some of
the stuff CS students learn are such as "counting" and "pigeon holes".
2) in terms of career, she will be able to for in the only industry that can
make a lot of money with products that almost work (or work most the time)
3) in terms of life/family planning, she will have the opportunity of
meeting a lot of guys (most are going to make a good living eventually) with
very few "competitors"
evening_shade
school. In looking for a major for college what you folks are saying is I
should be looking at Graphic Design? OK, what colleges out there have a
good reputation in this field? College is not too far away for me and I
want to get into this field of web design/graphics design.
Thanks for the input!
"out west" <by...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:LxsW8.8928$A43.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
KSG
> "out west" <by...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:LxsW8.8928$A43.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > advertising/ computer graphics/graphic design. My daughter taught herself
> > all the HTML, all the basic programming , C++, etc. out of books from the
> > library and various books we bought her....and she's a GIRL! j/k
> > PS Of course, her SAT is only 1090- who cares, she'll be supporting us
> all
> > by the time she's 30. ;) Byer
> >
>
> Maybe she needs to be seriously encourage to take up computer science. Not
> a lot of people in high school age can self teach C++ programming. This
> field of study is in desperately need of female students, so criteria to be
> accepted will be much easier for her than for guys. Is she going to be
> junior or senior?
>
> A number of things to consider for CS major
>
> 1) in terms of study, cs is really only a small branch of math in disguise
> (and a lot easier than the "pure math"). HS (K12) math curriculum has
> largely ignore this field of math, so even if she's not strong in high
> school algebra, she may still find CS parts of math interesting. Some of
> the stuff CS students learn are such as "counting" and "pigeon holes".
If she's not good at high school algebra she'll probably be pretty bad
at CS. Although high school algebra is a weird subset of math it's
one that maps to future performance in math and CS much better than
probably any other branch of HS math, except for maybe geometry.
Calculus being probably the class that least predicts future success
(unless you plan on being a physicist).
It would be nice if in high school they split the semester up between
differential and difference equations.
A friend of mine, who is an MIT physics PhD has a harder time with
difference equations than differential, and me vice-versa. I think
most people tend to gravitate towards their stronger points.
> 2) in terms of career, she will be able to for in the only industry that can
> make a lot of money with products that almost work (or work most the time)
Well I assume you're talking about software. This is an unfair
statement, considering software is the most complex human made
structures ever created. The difference is that software is only
limited by the human mind (and some computability theory), whereas
many other products are limited by physical constraints. Cars aren't
much different now than they were in 1950. The improvements are
pretty incremental with respect to performance, efficiency, and size.
Software has changed pretty drastically (well when you have 8GBs of
RAM you can do a lot more).
A lot of people knock the reliability of software. Well we make
pretty reliable calculators don't we? Look at some of the stuff HP
has with their high-end calculators. Well those are about 100X more
powerful than the most powerful computers in 1950, with software much
more complex. There has been fewer recalls of HP 48SXs than Ford
Escapes.
> 3) in terms of life/family planning, she will have the opportunity of
> meeting a lot of guys (most are going to make a good living eventually) with
> very few "competitors"
True... but has she seen how these guys dress ;-)
KSG
alin
"KSG" <ksg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f55f01d6.0207...@posting.google.com...
>
> If she's not good at high school algebra she'll probably be pretty bad
> at CS. Although high school algebra is a weird subset of math it's
> one that maps to future performance in math and CS much better than
> probably any other branch of HS math, except for maybe geometry.
> Calculus being probably the class that least predicts future success
> (unless you plan on being a physicist).
>
> It would be nice if in high school they split the semester up between
> differential and difference equations.
>
> A friend of mine, who is an MIT physics PhD has a harder time with
> difference equations than differential, and me vice-versa. I think
> most people tend to gravitate towards their stronger points.
>
All the math you need to know for computer science have nothing to do with
calculus and differential equations. Read chapter 1 of Knuth's book.
>
> A lot of people knock the reliability of software. Well we make
> pretty reliable calculators don't we? Look at some of the stuff HP
> has with their high-end calculators. Well those are about 100X more
> powerful than the most powerful computers in 1950, with software much
> more complex. There has been fewer recalls of HP 48SXs than Ford
> Escapes.
>
We also sent a couple of spacecrafts to nowhere. The beauty is that we can do
all that and blame it on everyone else. (This is my trade too btw)
> > 3) in terms of life/family planning, she will have the opportunity of
> > meeting a lot of guys (most are going to make a good living eventually)
with
> > very few "competitors"
>
> True... but has she seen how these guys dress ;-)
>
Most I know do have clothes on, is that not enough? And this reminds me of
another benefits for female in this trade, a big saving on wardrobe and
cosmetics.
Ram Lau
high
> school. In looking for a major for college what you folks are saying is I
> should be looking at Graphic Design? OK, what colleges out there have a
> good reputation in this field? College is not too far away for me and I
> want to get into this field of web design/graphics design.
First of all, Graphic Design doesn't really have much to do with computers.
It's usually found in a college's school of Art (and Design). CS is all
about programming, although we also need to know some theories and work on
the GUI stuffs sometimes. There aren't many top colleges that offer a
program like Graphic Design, but I know Wash U STL and Mich do. You may look
at the Art institutes like Rhode Island School of Design as well.
--
Ram Lau
ram...@cc.gatech.edu
Matthew A. Gline
Any school where you can learn good, math-based, algorithmic computer
science will prepare you for the hard construction end - writing cgi or perl
scripts, creating applications for e-business, or designing server-side
applications to redistribute site traffic. For questions of design, an
education in computer graphics and design would be more suitable. Any well
known program in those fields - RISD comes to mind, at present - would
probably lend itself to such a career choice. As technological capability
has increased with time, top level web pages have become both more
sophisticated and more visually appealing. Connections capable of handling
higher graphics loads have obviously led to a more graphics-intensive web,
and better servers have allowed for a higher degree of interactivity.
Therefore, consider: MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Stanford, and so on, or RISD,
MICA, and...well, I'm not terribly familiar with art schools so I can't fill
in the blanks here as well.
-Matt
(remove NOSPAM to reply)
Ram Lau
> science will prepare you for the hard construction end - writing cgi or
perl
> scripts, creating applications for e-business, or designing server-side
> applications to redistribute site traffic. For questions of design, an
> Therefore, consider: MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Stanford, and so on, or RISD,
> MICA, and...well, I'm not terribly familiar with art schools so I can't
fill
I wonder how many CS grads who get out of MIT or CMU would end up becoming a
web designer, where there are more respected and advanced job positions like
GUI/software developer, programmer/analyst, and software engineers
available. It just sounds a little overqualified to me. Maybe it's my
misconception? From what I know, professional web designing requires
knowledge in HTML, Flash, Photoshop, ASP... and probably Java. I don't think
those schools teach Flash and Photoshop...
Regarding the art schools, Art Center College of Design, CA Inst. of the
Arts, Art Inst. of Southern CA, CA College of Arts and Crafts, and San
Francisco Art Institute (all in CA!) all have great graphic design/computer
arts programs.
--
Ram Lau
ram...@cc.gatech.edu
KSG
> "KSG" <ksg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f55f01d6.0207...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > If she's not good at high school algebra she'll probably be pretty bad
> > at CS. Although high school algebra is a weird subset of math it's
> > one that maps to future performance in math and CS much better than
> > probably any other branch of HS math, except for maybe geometry.
> > Calculus being probably the class that least predicts future success
> > (unless you plan on being a physicist).
> >
> > It would be nice if in high school they split the semester up between
> > differential and difference equations.
> >
> > A friend of mine, who is an MIT physics PhD has a harder time with
> > difference equations than differential, and me vice-versa. I think
> > most people tend to gravitate towards their stronger points.
> >
>
> All the math you need to know for computer science have nothing to do with
> calculus and differential equations. Read chapter 1 of Knuth's book.
I don't have Knuth's book (I know, blasphemy), but I seem to recall
him saying that he found use for all branches of mathematics that he
had studied, except ironically what he did his PhD dissertation on
(unfortunately I don't recall what this was). I think I read this in
an old CACM.
There are plenty of parts in CS where differential equations are
absolutely necessary (well assuming you ignore Wolfram), but you can
also easily avoid them if you like. I presume that is what Knuth
meant.
But with that said, you don't need Calculus or DiffEQs to do math
either.
> > A lot of people knock the reliability of software. Well we make
> > pretty reliable calculators don't we? Look at some of the stuff HP
> > has with their high-end calculators. Well those are about 100X more
> > powerful than the most powerful computers in 1950, with software much
> > more complex. There has been fewer recalls of HP 48SXs than Ford
> > Escapes.
> >
>
> We also sent a couple of spacecrafts to nowhere. The beauty is that we can do
> all that and blame it on everyone else. (This is my trade too btw)
Don't physicists write all that NASA/JPL code? ;-)
> > > 3) in terms of life/family planning, she will have the opportunity of
> > > meeting a lot of guys (most are going to make a good living eventually)
> with
> > > very few "competitors"
> >
> > True... but has she seen how these guys dress ;-)
> >
> Most I know do have clothes on, is that not enough? And this reminds me of
> another benefits for female in this trade, a big saving on wardrobe and
> cosmetics.
Well bathing should be a requirement too. Have you read "Hackers"?
Some funny hygiene stories about the guys at the MIT AI Lab.
KSG
Matthew A. Gline
think CS grads from top programs are unlikely to be "designing web pages,"
which of course is logically the profession of the web designer. Still,
there are a number of complex, custom applications running behind high brow
corporate web sites. There is a huge burgeoning market for "web appliances"
or "web applications" - google is one of the hottest companies for
job-seeking cs grads, and ebay hires a fair number of computer engineers
regularly. These people aren't, strictly speaking, doing web design, but
their job is largely related to designed applications to be portable across
the www protocols. Someone with the qualifications to develop software or
design GUI could find themselves in high demand by companies looking to
create a new, more advanced web space, one with a presence that goes beyond
flash or html. Such a person could still be considered a web designer, I'd
suppose. I think, however, that our differences lie in a syntax error :)
-Matt
out west
the resources many of the colleges do. My daughter has RISD on her short
list of schools, but I'm pretty sure it won't work out monetarily for us.
Let me go hunt up her college 'big ' list and I'll type it in a bit. She
sounds similar to the posters interests. I think there is plenty of good
living to be made in computer graphics. Also, she said she found a web site
with all the schools with computer graphics/graphic design majors. I'll look
for that too. Byer
PS She doesn't like math too much, but for some reason has no trouble with
the programming stuff. I don't understand enough about it to know why,
though. She also loves design and artsy stuff and I'm not sure she'd want a
CS major. There is a big difference between the creative side of art/design
on a computer (she is fully literate in Photoshop, for example) and CS.
Hey, maybe I'll stick one of her personal web sites on here. Byer
"Ram Lau" <ram...@resnet.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:agfl28$s4n$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
out west
We are trying to talk to her about going to a more comprehensive college
than a purely art/graphics school. There are a lot of comprehensive colleges
with CS or graphic design/computer graphics majors and then she can switch
over if she wants and also it opens up a larger range of careers for her.
Byer
"out west" <by...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RDOW8.2840$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
out west
Institute of Technology in WA. Their website address is www.digipen.edu
It's
apparently a computer school associated with computer game companies or some
such. I can't speak to it's quality, but it sounds pretty interesting. It's
associated with Nintendo and is in Redmond, WA. I think it's main focus is
on video game production, but seems to offer a lot in computer graphics type
stuff. Byer
"Matthew A. Gline" <gl...@fas.harvard.eduNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:YMNW8.8064$AL6....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Ram Lau
> living to be made in computer graphics. Also, she said she found a web
site
> with all the schools with computer graphics/graphic design majors. I'll
look
> for that too. Byer
Definitely. But if she has real programming talents, I'd recommend a
challenging CS program, in which she can specialize in Graphics and
Visualization. :)
> PS She doesn't like math too much, but for some reason has no trouble with
> the programming stuff. I don't understand enough about it to know why,
> though. She also loves design and artsy stuff and I'm not sure she'd want
a
> CS major. There is a big difference between the creative side of
art/design
> on a computer (she is fully literate in Photoshop, for example) and CS.
> Hey, maybe I'll stick one of her personal web sites on here. Byer
Sure, please do. Some friends and I may start a small project for a new
small business here in Atlanta. We need some good web designers. :)
--
Ram Lau
ram...@cc.gatech.edu
KSG
> > sounds similar to the posters interests. I think there is plenty of good
> > living to be made in computer graphics. Also, she said she found a web
> site
> > with all the schools with computer graphics/graphic design majors. I'll
> look
> > for that too. Byer
>
> Definitely. But if she has real programming talents, I'd recommend a
> challenging CS program, in which she can specialize in Graphics and
> Visualization. :)
Well computer graphics and graphic design are largely disjoint sets.
Computer graphics tends to focus on either visualization or
photorealistic work. I'm not sure being the world's best at either of
those two things will help you much in designing web pages.
I think studying 'art' would be better for web design, with a
concentration in computer-based art.
But if she in fact enjoys the programming then CS can be fulfilling.
KSG
alin
> him saying that he found use for all branches of mathematics that he
> had studied, except ironically what he did his PhD dissertation on
> (unfortunately I don't recall what this was). I think I read this in
> an old CACM.
>
Knuth is always right :-) Almost everything in math has a connection to
computer science. Anything that has not have one is for someone to discover
a new connection.
> There are plenty of parts in CS where differential equations are
> absolutely necessary (well assuming you ignore Wolfram), but you can
> also easily avoid them if you like. I presume that is what Knuth
> meant.
>
> But with that said, you don't need Calculus or DiffEQs to do math
> either.
I don't mean to suppress the value of calculus. Realize that calculus
starts the concept of finite manipulation of infinity. But the bulk of math
concept required for the core CS curriculum for undergraduate and even into
graduate study does not depend on calculus. Analysis is one of fields in
math, but it's also an important one.
Wolfram (I assume that you really meant Mathematica) is a tool that
scientist and engineer use to solve their problems. It has as much to do
with computer science as Minitab and SPSS do.
There is however an overlapping (in between electrical engineering and
computer science) area in digital signal processing that uses a lot of
results from calculus and differential equations.
>
> Well bathing should be a requirement too. Have you read "Hackers"?
> Some funny hygiene stories about the guys at the MIT AI Lab.
>
No I haven't, will try one day. Who's the author? Is he from media lab?
On the other hand, no places on earth can smell worse than hockey rink
locker rooms, in my opinion.
KSG
> > absolutely necessary (well assuming you ignore Wolfram), but you can
> > also easily avoid them if you like. I presume that is what Knuth
> > meant.
>
> scientist and engineer use to solve their problems. It has as much to do
> with computer science as Minitab and SPSS do.
No, I meant Wolfram the person. His new book "A New Kind of Science"
he goes into why he thinks the study of differential equations was a
detour by mathematicians because we didn't understand complex systems
(and cellular automata as the way to model them). Even if you don't
believe it, it's still an interesting read.
But he is the author of Mathematica also, although I wasn't thinking
of Mathematica at all in my post.
> > Well bathing should be a requirement too. Have you read "Hackers"?
> > Some funny hygiene stories about the guys at the MIT AI Lab.
> >
>
> No I haven't, will try one day. Who's the author? Is he from media lab?
>
> On the other hand, no places on earth can smell worse than hockey rink
> locker rooms, in my opinion.
It's by Steven Levy. He's not from the media lab, but rather an
author of pop science books (and very good ones at that). It's a
great book. There's a part where an MIT comes back from the Stanford
AI Lab and announced that he didn't think any real work could be done
at Stanford -- the weather is too nice! (or soemthing to that
effect).
KSG
David Ames
> She also was the web master for the high school
> thespian web site.
In our office the preferred term is "Webster."
David Ames
Darccity
>> thespian web site.
>
>In our office the preferred term is "Webster."
>
for-profit, nebulous college that preys on unemployed faculty and students
desperate for a degree at any cost.
dapra
Darccity wrote:
> >
> >In our office the preferred term is "Webster."
> >
> In academia, we reserve that term (and synonyms such as Nova and Phoenix) to a
> for-profit, nebulous college that preys on unemployed faculty and students
> desperate for a degree at any cost.
Oh, No! I can't believe it! For-profit "colleges" prey on unemployed and
desperate people? Sure, for-profit high schools will not pray on the
desperate inner city parents, will they? ;-)
(Sorry, I just could not resist it. But we discussed, quite in length,
the voucher proposals.)
dapra
Darccity
>to a
>> for-profit, nebulous college that preys on unemployed faculty and students
>> desperate for a degree at any cost.
>
>Oh, No! I can't believe it! For-profit "colleges" prey on unemployed and
>desperate people? Sure, for-profit high schools will not pray on the
>desperate inner city parents, will they? ;-)
>
>(Sorry, I just could not resist it. But we discussed, quite in length,
>the voucher proposals.)
Figured you'd pick that up. Reputable for-profits are around, and there'd be
more if only there were real standards and measurements of outcomes. The
Nova's of the world merely cut out the middleman: here's a degree -- and don't
bother spending a lot of time or effort earning it, 'cause you wouldn't learn
much useful anyway. Remember,I also argue that all higher education is a sham.
Nobody defines what is it we are having student waste 4-6 year only and
taxpayers pay for. And nobody is allowed to regulate it or set standards. But
all the actors in this play have a vested interest in never nailing down any of
these questions. Students get to sleep late, party, live among their peers,
not work, and play sports for years. Faculty get to do whatever it is they do
whenever they want, and administrators get to (well, let's not go there). You
all think Enron, WoldComm, or the CIA/FBI are scandals. Colleges take the
cake when it comes to control of all information to their own advantage.
alin
"Darccity" <darc...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020712095126.07169.00000154@mb-
>
> Figured you'd pick that up. Reputable for-profits are around, and there'd
be
Really, any examples? Non-profit is defined based on the tax code as a way to
get some group operating without paying tax. I don't know any colleges who
willing give up such privileges.
Non-profits ofter earn more money than for-profit corportation (in addition to
the saving of tax dollars). It's a common misconception that non profits are
not for profit.
> more if only there were real standards and measurements of outcomes. The
> Nova's of the world merely cut out the middleman: here's a degree -- and
don't
> bother spending a lot of time or effort earning it, 'cause you wouldn't
learn
> much useful anyway. Remember,I also argue that all higher education is a
sham.
> Nobody defines what is it we are having student waste 4-6 year only and
> taxpayers pay for. And nobody is allowed to regulate it or set standards.
But
> all the actors in this play have a vested interest in never nailing down any
of
> these questions. Students get to sleep late, party, live among their peers,
> not work, and play sports for years. Faculty get to do whatever it is they
do
> whenever they want, and administrators get to (well, let's not go there).
You
> all think Enron, WoldComm, or the CIA/FBI are scandals. Colleges take the
> cake when it comes to control of all information to their own advantage.
You forgot to mention some big name national and international charitable
organizations.
Darccity
>to
>get some group operating without paying tax. I don't know any colleges who
>willing give up such privileges.
>
>Non-profits ofter earn more money than for-profit corportation (in addition
>to
>the saving of tax dollars). It's a common misconception that non profits are
>not for profit.
Excellent point, that I haven't made here in a while. But non-profits also
function like a country club or trade association, where members are alumni and
boards who will step in when they perceive the reputation of the college and
the net-present value of their degree are endangered. Thus, non-profits have a
whole different set of incentives, since students now become economic input
factors of product as well as future members of the "club." For profits, by
contrast, treat students as customers, a totally foreign (and inappropriate)
concept for a non-profit. Examples: perhaps Full Sail, Thunderbird, Keiser,
but each has problems because standards and monitoring are lacking.
>You forgot to mention some big name national and international charitable
>organizations.
Right again.
out west
graphics/advertising/design. Plus, you get to be in the City (well, out
skirts, but hey). Byer
"KSG" <ksg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f55f01d6.02071...@posting.google.com...
Abe Kohen
"KSG" <ksg...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> It's by Steven Levy. He's not from the media lab, but rather an
> author of pop science books (and very good ones at that). It's a
> great book. There's a part where an MIT comes back from the Stanford
> AI Lab and announced that he didn't think any real work could be done
> at Stanford -- the weather is too nice! (or soemthing to that
> effect).
That's why I was able to benefit from the wisdom of John McCarthy, Les
Earnest, and others at SAIL.
My greatest regret was the windsurfing class (on Lake Lag) I could not
attend because of a time conflict with a required CS class. I took swimming
instead. Outdoors!
Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who had attended Cal-Berkeley, sent his daughter
Benazir to Harvard, where the weather would be rotten enough for her to
study.
Abe
Abe Kohen
"dapra" <dap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3D2E6B7E...@comcast.net...
The private high schools will be in the mode of private colleges like
Harvard and Yale. Neither can be accused of preying (nor praying, except for
their Schools of Divinity) on desperate inner city parents.
Abe
out west
"Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:agqpdj$o4fm2$1...@ID-102750.news.dfncis.de...
> My greatest regret was the windsurfing class (on Lake Lag) I could not
> attend because of a time conflict with a required CS class. I took
swimming
> instead. Outdoors!
> Abe
Why would anyone go swimming anywhere but outdoors? The smell of chlorine
must be pretty rank in an inside pool. I've never been swimming indoors- it
would seem too odd!! You have to be out there with the air and the
birds..... I love my California (although today was dang HOT!). Byer
out west
middle of July (but it's coming!). Byer
"Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:agqpdj$o4fm2$1...@ID-102750.news.dfncis.de...
>
dapra
Abe Kohen wrote:
>
> "dapra" <dap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:3D2E6B7E...@comcast.net...
> >
> > Oh, No! I can't believe it! For-profit "colleges" prey on unemployed and
> > desperate people? Sure, for-profit high schools will not pray on the
> > desperate inner city parents, will they? ;-)
> >
> > (Sorry, I just could not resist it. But we discussed, quite in length,
> > the voucher proposals.)
>
> The private high schools will be in the mode of private colleges like
> Harvard and Yale.Neither can be accused of preying (nor praying, except for
> their Schools of Divinity) on desperate inner city parents.
They WILL BE in the mode of Harvard and Yale? Do you have any source to
back up your statement? You seem to be so sure. Harvard or Yale, get
real! We were talking about failing inner city schools!
dapra
Abe Kohen
We have quite a number of high quality private schools (parochial and
non-parochial) in NYC, attended by mainly affluent and some inner city poor
students. With vouchers, supplemented by scholarships, we can expect to see
more inner city students receiving education that is far superior to what
they are getting now.
Abe
dapra
Abe Kohen wrote:
>
> "dapra" <dap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:3D311EA2...@comcast.net...
> >
> >
> > Abe Kohen wrote:
> > >
> > > "dapra" <dap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:3D2E6B7E...@comcast.net...
> > >
> > > The private high schools will be in the mode of private colleges like
> > > Harvard and Yale.Neither can be accused of preying (nor praying, except
> for
> > > their Schools of Divinity) on desperate inner city parents.
> >
> >
> > They WILL BE in the mode of Harvard and Yale? Do you have any source to
> > back up your statement? You seem to be so sure. Harvard or Yale, get
> > real! We were talking about failing inner city schools!
>
> We have quite a number of high quality private schools (parochial and
> non-parochial) in NYC, attended by mainly affluent and some inner city poor
> students. With vouchers, supplemented by scholarships, we can expect to see
> more inner city students receiving education that is far superior to what
> they are getting now.
>
Yes. There are a number of high quality private schools. And they are
comparable to Harvard or Yale, "in the mode of Harvard and Yale", but
they cost almost as much.
I picked a few from the east side (5th to Park, 59th to 90th).
www.browning.edu, www.dalton.org, www.loyola-nyc.org
Take a look. Discreetly, they do not even mention any tuition cost. I
guess, if one has to ask, he can't afford it, as the old saying goes.
(Note, Harvard and Yale disclose their tuition!) 2K would not go to far
to cover a 20K tuition. And, yes some of them give financial aid just
like private colleges. Do you think these schools would turn around the
ratio of say 80:20 (full pay: financial aid) to 20:80? And they start a
mad expansion to make place for poor kids with 2K in their hand?
That's what you think "private schools will be" for failing inner city
schools? I can't believe your naivety.
dapra
K
> guess, if one has to ask, he can't afford it, as the old saying goes.
> (Note, Harvard and Yale disclose their tuition!) 2K would not go to far
> to cover a 20K tuition. And, yes some of them give financial aid just
> like private colleges. Do you think these schools would turn around the
> ratio of say 80:20 (full pay: financial aid) to 20:80? And they start a
> mad expansion to make place for poor kids with 2K in their hand?
>
> That's what you think "private schools will be" for failing inner city
> schools? I can't believe your naivety.
>
The private schools here ( secular) offer scholarships for all kids who qualify
for admission.
We received 60% scholarship yet did not qualify for reduced lunch in public
school, so I would say that a student who would qualify for reduced lunch fees
would qualify for more scholarship money. Private schools are also able to offer
aid to induce those who would increase diversity in the school( sorry Abe)
Take say 80% aid, add the $2K of the voucher and that leaves very minimal costs
to the family. I do not believe that tuition should be free, except in the case
of a few students who were living on their own or with custodians and had to
cover their own expenses anyway.
It is true some student's guardians do not give a damn about their education and
would not pursue alternatives whether it be public school choice or private
school vouchers. However many parents do care about their children's education
and why should they be penalized by having their kids in inner city public
schools? Shouldn't they have just as much of a choice as the kids whose parents
are more affluent and hence can either pay for private schools or move to
wealthy suburbs?
More money to the public schools will not help. They have millions right now
that they are misappropriating. They need to show that they can clean up their
act before they get anymore money.
Vouchers will force them to do that or go out of business
Abe Kohen
I believe in the American dream. If you call that naivete, so be it.
If the status quo of failed inner city schools suits you, then you must be a
racist, since you are relegating those students to a lifetime of menial jobs
and worse. I believe in getting them out of the situation during the
formative years, not after twelve years of failed schooling.
Abe
Abe Kohen
"K" <youngber...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3D31C529...@earthlink.net...
I agree with everything you said, except the "sorry Abe." I am all for
providing quality K-12 education for all. Then you would never have a need
to discriminate in college admissions.
Abe
K
> providing quality K-12 education for all. Then you would never have a need
> to discriminate in college admissions.
>
> Abe
That's a good point. I also think it would be cheaper to offer them a decent
education starting in grade school, than to give them remedial classes in
college.
Our public schools are not working in many areas. When I try something and it
doesn't work, I might adjust what I am doing and try it again, but after a few
times of failure, I would totally rethink my approach. This is what we need to
do with the educational system.
Too many kids are passed along until graduation ( or not) because no one wants
to hold them back and admit that they were not learning. Even the ones who
attend class and graduate are not challenged. I would estimate more gifted kids
drop out or become bored with school and do perfunctory work than those who are
actually driven to excel.
The students who can currently afford to have a choice, will whether we have
vouchers or not. Vouchers give other kids an option too.
Darccity
>that they are misappropriating. They need to show that they can clean up
>their
>act before they get anymore money.
>Vouchers will force them to do that or go out of business
>
except economists). Economists know that all education (and welfare) funding
must be funded at the national level (not just 5% of it!) and administered
locally. That way children who happen to be born in poor states are not
penalized. The economic analysis continues as follows:graduates (or drop outs)
are free to move anywhere in the U.S., becoming somebody else's problem or
precision labor asset. If your state has an uneducated citizenry, the most
cost effective way to beat the system is bribe away graduates from other states
and create incentives (zoning, public services) for high school drop outs to
move away. The worst way is pay to educate your own citizens, who will only
leave for the higher paying educated states. Similarly for welfare. So what
does the U.S. do: the exact opposite, to maximize inequality and minimize
productivity. Talking about flunking Econ 101! But then the Boise governor's
conference are again bemoaning our theater of the absurd federal system. Let's
see. Why not assign the responsibilities for paying for and providing all
useful government services to the states and localities (i.e., trash, water,
roads, schools, universities, prisons, courts, child welfare, urban
development, growth management, police, fire, etc.). Then make sure they have
limited and declining sources of revenue, require them to balance their annual
budgets, and require any new debt (say a school bond) to go before the voters
to nix. Then assign to the feds the income tax, the payroll tax, the power to
run obscene deficits, and even to print money and orchestrate the interest
rates through the Federal Reserve. In return, make sure the news media only
covers Washington, which is in charge of nothing much of importance, and fail
miserably at what they are in charge of (drug wars, hot wars, global climate
change, promoting exports, stopping the spread of AIDS, pushing for human
rights). So, in their infinite wisdom, the feds dole out a few tax revenue
dollars back to our local government (with strings attached or to some
congressional chair's district). The is know as Public Finance 201 (see any
textbook on the subject). Any reforms that ignore this problem is wasting its
time.
dapra
Abe Kohen wrote:
>
> "dapra" <dap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:3D31B720...@comcast.net...
> >
> > Yes. There are a number of high quality private schools. And they are
> > comparable to Harvard or Yale, "in the mode of Harvard and Yale", but
> > they cost almost as much.
> >
> > I picked a few from the east side (5th to Park, 59th to 90th).
> > www.browning.edu, www.dalton.org, www.loyola-nyc.org
> >
> > Take a look. Discreetly, they do not even mention any tuition cost. I
> > guess, if one has to ask, he can't afford it, as the old saying goes.
> > (Note, Harvard and Yale disclose their tuition!) 2K would not go too far
> > to cover a 20K tuition. And, yes some of them give financial aid just
> > like private colleges. Do you think these schools would turn around the
> > ratio of say 80:20 (full pay: financial aid) to 20:80? And they start a
> > mad expansion to make place for poor kids with 2K in their hand?
> >
> > That's what you think "private schools will be" for failing inner city
> > schools? I can't believe your naivety.
>
> I believe in the American dream. If you call that naivete, so be it.
In case your flag is wearing out, I have one to spare so you can rap
yourself it. But, You did not respond to my post.
> If the status quo of failed inner city schools suits you, then you must be a
> racist, since you are relegating those students to a lifetime of menial jobs
> and worse. I believe in getting them out of the situation during the
> formative years, not after twelve years of failed schooling.
>
I clearly stated that the way to improve schools is to lift up the
whole district.
A start would be if the 50% of the people who did not vote, most of them
in poor areas, would get out and vote.
Promising them private education "in the mode of Harvard and Yale" as
you described, is dishonest and cruel. Though, I don't think that you
have any clear understanding what you are saying.
dapra
Abe Kohen
>
>
> Abe Kohen wrote:
> >
> > "dapra" <dap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:3D31B720...@comcast.net...
>
> > >
> > > Yes. There are a number of high quality private schools. And they are
> > > comparable to Harvard or Yale, "in the mode of Harvard and Yale", but
> > > they cost almost as much.
> > >
> > > I picked a few from the east side (5th to Park, 59th to 90th).
> > > www.browning.edu, www.dalton.org, www.loyola-nyc.org
> > >
> > > Take a look. Discreetly, they do not even mention any tuition cost. I
> > > guess, if one has to ask, he can't afford it, as the old saying goes.
> > > (Note, Harvard and Yale disclose their tuition!) 2K would not go too
far
> > > to cover a 20K tuition. And, yes some of them give financial aid just
> > > like private colleges. Do you think these schools would turn around
the
> > > ratio of say 80:20 (full pay: financial aid) to 20:80? And they start
a
> > > mad expansion to make place for poor kids with 2K in their hand?
> > >
> > > That's what you think "private schools will be" for failing inner city
> > > schools? I can't believe your naivety.
> >
> > I believe in the American dream. If you call that naivete, so be it.
>
>
> In case your flag is wearing out, I have one to spare so you can rap
> yourself it. But, You did not respond to my post.
"naivety?" "rap?" Get yourself a spell checker. A grammar check won't hurt,
either.
> > If the status quo of failed inner city schools suits you, then you must
be a
> > racist, since you are relegating those students to a lifetime of menial
jobs
> > and worse. I believe in getting them out of the situation during the
> > formative years, not after twelve years of failed schooling.
> >
>
> I clearly stated that the way to improve schools is to lift up the
> whole district.
> A start would be if the 50% of the people who did not vote, most of them
> in poor areas, would get out and vote.
Voting as a remedy for failed schools?
>
> Promising them private education "in the mode of Harvard and Yale" as
> you described, is dishonest and cruel. Though, I don't think that you
> have any clear understanding what you are saying.
Then your problem is not only that you are a racist and bigot for relegating
inner city students to substandard education, but that, as you say in the
last sentence, you don't think.
Abe
dapra
Abe Kohen wrote:
>
> "dapra" <dap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:3D335293...@comcast.net...
> > I clearly stated that the way to improve schools is to lift up the
> > whole district.
> > A start would be if the 50% of the people who did not vote, most of them
> > in poor areas, would get out and vote.
>
> Voting as a remedy for failed schools?
I am not surprised, you can't make the connections. Lack of political
and economic power are the root causes of failed schools, not
unresponsive principals or burned out teachers. In well off districts,
public schools work just fine.
> >
> > Promising them private education "in the mode of Harvard and Yale" as
> > you described, is dishonest and cruel. Though, I don't think that you
> > have any clear understanding what you are saying.
>
> Then your problem is not only that you are a racist and bigot for relegating
> inner city students to substandard education, but that, as you say in the
> last sentence, you don't think.
>
> Abe
Then, there are two racists and bigots on this board already.
One can spell, one can't. :-)
But you still did not explain your idea of private education in the
mode of Harvard and Yale, to help failed schools.
dapra