More straight than gay?
David E. Drinkwater-Lunn
> I am interested in talking with people who define themselves as basically
> straight, or more so than gay/lesbian. I'd like to know how this affects
> your relationships with those of the same sex. I used to think I was
> bi, but then I went out with a woman and now I'm not sure. Post or
> email. Thanks.
This letter kind of leaves it really open what it was about your experience
that makes you unsure.
Me personally, I (male) a more frequently attracted to women than to men,
and more generally more turned on by women's bodies, but then, I also feel
that when I AM attracted to a man, it is often deeper. I think that part
of that may have to do with social programming, but also to do with the
fact that the men I am more likely to be attracted to are NOT readily
visible in the "queer scene" as I know it. It's something of a question of
visibility.
I know this isn't a terribly complete answer, but a lot of what is going on
for me is a more complete appreciation of straight male sexuality, and a
desire to develope it to a point where we really are, as men, able to
express affection for eachother, and, once we have overcome our homophobia,
perhaps to cross the line into more specifically erotic potential between
us. Also something that won't necessarily help you figure oušwhat you wnat
with women, although I think a lot of it is similar.
David
--
David E. Drinkwater-Lunn
de...@cornell.edu, Demodave on IRC,
http://pooh.sozwiss.uni-konstanz.de/gblf.de/people/people.html on WWW
Rather lost in the wilderness of Goettingen, Germany,
in six months or so in the frozen north of Minneapolis, Minnesota
Happy to hear from you! :-)
an16...@anon.penet.fi
i too feel more attracted to men than to women. for some reason, when im
attracted to a man, it hits harder, tends to be deeper, and i tend to fret
over it more than when i have a crush on a woman. i dont know why this is
but i suspect part of it might be that ive never had an experience with a
woman and cant really say ive ever met a woman who i could have a serious
romantic involvement with (i guess my crushes on women are mostly physical
attraction). another part of it may be that i tend to be a bit wary of
women sometimes because ive had some very bad female freinds. i know its
wrong to stereotype, but my among my male freinds there have been fewer
backstabbers, so i guess im more comfortable with guys sometimes.
id be interested in hearing more about this - one of the big reasons i havent
declared myself bisexual is because my attractions dont really run 50/50
each sex, making me unsure as to whether im really bi or not...
foood for thought i suppose....
di
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an16...@anon.penet.fi writes:
>
>i too feel more attracted to men than to women. for some reason, when im
>attracted to a man, it hits harder, tends to be deeper, and i tend to fret
>over it more than when i have a crush on a woman. i dont know why this is
>but i suspect part of it might be that ive never had an experience with a
>woman and cant really say ive ever met a woman who i could have a serious
>romantic involvement with (i guess my crushes on women are mostly physical
>attraction).
>
>declared myself bisexual is because my attractions dont really run 50/50
>each sex, making me unsure as to whether im really bi or not...
>
>foood for thought i suppose....
>
>di
>
sex, but that has no bearing on my self-identification as bisexual. I am
bisexual because I am capable of attraction to both MOTOS and MOTSS. Every
once in a while a MOTSS will walk by that causes me to go weak in the knees.
This does not mean that I would be inteested in pursuing a relationship with
them.
A lot of this has to do with my overall life goals. I plan to have children
of my own one day, and this would be difficult if I allowed myself to get in-
volved with a MOTSS.
At the same time, it's not impossible that I get involved regardless of my life
goals. If that happens, then I'll just have to figure out which is more
important to me. My SO or my theoretical children. For that matter, there are
ways to have both. It'sjust that they're not always easy. If it's important,
though, then I'll find a way.
Chuck
Lizard
women, but I guess I AM more straight than gay. I totally think of
myself as bi, but I'm also married... to one man. I try not to really
worry about labels, though. I'm just attracted to a person, their
sex doesn't enter into it, except in my fantasies :) I do find that
the crushes I have on WOMEN are stronger and last longer than the crushes
I have on men. Maybe that's because I know I'll never really need
another man: my husband is more than enough.
-Liz-
Craig A. Schiller
: Well, I tend to be more interested in pursuing relationships with the opposite
: sex, but that has no bearing on my self-identification as bisexual. I am
: bisexual because I am capable of attraction to both MOTOS and MOTSS. Every
: once in a while a MOTSS will walk by that causes me to go weak in the knees.
: This does not mean that I would be inteested in pursuing a relationship with
: them.
I'm very similar in that respect--I'm physically attracted to both men
and women, but my romantic attractions are almost invariably to women.
In ten years of being aware of my bisexuality (and I do indeed identify
as bisexual), I have met ONE man to whom I felt any romantic interest
whatsoever. I very often feel out of place and uncomfortable in gay
settings, partly because of my romantic attractions to women, and partly
because I just don't feel like gay culture has a place for me. On the
whole, I find my personality more compatible with the straight world than
with the gay one.
: A lot of this has to do with my overall life goals. I plan to have children
: of my own one day, and this would be difficult if I allowed myself to get in-
: volved with a MOTSS.
: At the same time, it's not impossible that I get involved regardless of my life
: goals. If that happens, then I'll just have to figure out which is more
: important to me. My SO or my theoretical children. For that matter, there are
: ways to have both. It'sjust that they're not always easy. If it's important,
: though, then I'll find a way.
For me, an MOTSS relationship seems somehow unlikely to happen anyway
(not completely impossible, but very unlikely). I'd like children, but
I don't regard having children as a reason not to get involved if such a
relationship should present itself to me.
cas:
Matt Freestone
> attracted to a man, it hits harder, tends to be deeper, and i tend to fret
> over it more than when i have a crush on a woman. i dont know why this is
> but i suspect part of it might be that ive never had an experience with a
> woman and cant really say ive ever met a woman who i could have a serious
> romantic involvement with (i guess my crushes on women are mostly physical
> attraction). another part of it may be that i tend to be a bit wary of
> women sometimes because ive had some very bad female freinds. i know its
> wrong to stereotype, but my among my male freinds there have been fewer
> backstabbers, so i guess im more comfortable with guys sometimes.
>
seems to work the opposite way to the one you describe: that is; I
usually start from a physical attraction to (sorry, I've just realized that I'm
assuming you are female but its too late in the evening to think how
to rewrite this more carefully) women that then turns into friendship
(and a relationship infrequently) whereas with all (read both) the men
I've got off with it started from us being good friends.
> id be interested in hearing more about this - one of the big reasons i havent
> declared myself bisexual is because my attractions dont really run 50/50
> each sex, making me unsure as to whether im really bi or not...
>
Much as I think I'd like to be more evenly attracted to both sexes, I
think of myself as bi because I can and would consider a lover of
either sex - its the principle rather than the statistics that I see as
the important thing.
If being 'really bi' is to mean anything other than some sort of ratio
of men to women you've got off with (in which case two of my straight
friends are 'really bi') then it must be whether you believe yourself
to be bi or not.
Try thinking of yourself as bi for a day; if you like it, keep it; if
you don't then you've lost nothing - you don't have to identify as
anything at all.
Hope this makes some sense.
> foood for thought i suppose....
>
> di
Made me think anyway.
Matt Freestone II "It just goes to show what God could
Mat...@matthewf.demon.co.uk II have done if He'd had the money."
II
Pascalle v.d. Watering
: In article <065309Z...@anon.penet.fi>
: an16...@anon.penet.fi writes:
:
: >
: >i too feel more attracted to men than to women. for some reason, when im
: >attracted to a man, it hits harder, tends to be deeper, and i tend to fret
: >over it more than when i have a crush on a woman. i dont know why this is
: >but i suspect part of it might be that ive never had an experience with a
: >woman and cant really say ive ever met a woman who i could have a serious
: >romantic involvement with (i guess my crushes on women are mostly physical
: >attraction).
For me it's a bit the same, I'm attracted to both sides but i could not
imagine having sex wit a female, altough I know I could spend the rest of my
life with one. I think all people are in a scale between 1 and 10, and 1 is
completely straight, and 10 is completely gay.
I'm a 3 or 4, and i think that a lot of people are BETWEEN 1 and 10, and not
precicely 1 or 10.
It's something to think about.....
Pascalle (The Netherlands)
Sion Arrowsmith
Matt Freestone <Mat...@matthewf.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> [ Hit ^P to read what Matthew said -- keep that bandwidth down ! ]
>
Yes.
I find myself in the uneasy position of primarily identifying as
bi, but in actuality (a) only ever having been involved with MOTSS,
(b) being attracted far more to MOTOS and (c) better described as
asexual in terms of behaviour. In fact, I've been behaviourally
asexual for virtually all of my adult life -- when I originally
stopped assuming I was straight, it was because of something like
the following thought process:
I am not currently, and never have been, involved with
anyone. The chances of this changing are miniscule. I am
therefore in a position of having relationships with men
and women equally (ie not at all).
From this point, it is a miniscule step to identifying as bisexual.
I then had a couple of MOTSS relationships, but at no time did I
ever think of myself as being gay -- I was bi, and just happened to
have a same-sex lover.
When the dust from the end of those relationships settled, I found
myself more strongly attracted to MOTOS. To qualify what I mean by
"more strongly attracted to" -- I would fantasise more about MOTOS
(in fact, I think I've only ever really fantasised about one person,
I just keep changing hir slightly!), and the majority of people who
made me turn my head (I like this as a criterion for judging how
physically attractive someone is -- do you turn your head to keep
watching them?) were MOTOS. At that time, I began to doubt that I
was really bisexual -- after all, it wasn't something that had come
to me as a form of enlightenment, it was more of a conscious choice
(yes, some of us did actually choose our sexualities!), the MOTSS
relationships had been under what might be termed extreme circumstances,
and here I was with obvious tendencies towards heterosexuality (but
not straightness (-8 that's beyond question). The years drifted by,
and none of this has changed, but now I'm more back to where I
started -- I get involved with just as many women as men, none at all,
so why not identify as the trivial 50/50 bisexual? Well, the underlying
attraction is still for MOTOS, so am I deceiving the world somehow if
I claim to be bi when in fact I lean strongly towards heterosexuality?
For me, the answer is "No" because my asexuality isn't an entirely
internal matter, it has a distinct social component -- that is, being
equally unattractive to men and women -- so even if I say I'm bi, and
everyone else says I'm bi, all my interactions with people will treat
me as asexual, even if that is never openly acknowledged. It doesn't
matter what is going on deep in my head, because that never has to
interact with anyone else.
Ugh, that's quite enough crap for one night. PS for Mikhail -- I use
the phrase "men and women" to denote all sexes, and "MOTOS" and
"MOTSS" should be treated with a similarly cavalier attitude.
--
\S | "Is he a mess, or is he depressed?
si...@bast.demon.co.uk | "Does he feel totally worthless?" They Might Be Giants
Robert Cumming
pasc...@compiler.tdcnet.nl (Pascalle v.d. Watering) writes:
aha! Robert notices Pascalle-with-the-really-cool-name...
For me it's a bit the same, I'm attracted to both sides but i could not
imagine having sex wit a female, altough I know I could spend the rest of my
life with one. I think all people are in a scale between 1 and 10, and 1 is
completely straight, and 10 is completely gay.
Not that the numbers matter much really, but the 0=straight/6=gay Kinsey
scale tends to be the one people refer to round here. Also, for
the mathematically minded, if K is Kinsey number (and K not necessarily
the same thing the numbers in Kinsey's original study), then for many
people,
dK/dt not equal to zero
where t is time. In fact
n n
d K/dt not equal to zero
for all integer n... :)
I'm a 3 or 4, and i think that a lot of people are BETWEEN 1 and 10, and not
precisely 1 or 10.
OK, we need a conversion expression here. Let P be the Pascalle number.
Then
K = 2(P-1)/3
and so
K(Pascalle) = 1.333 or 2
It's something to think about.....
Pascalle (The Netherlands)
welcome!
Robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Outside soc.bi, it's extremely rare.' J. Harley rob...@astro.su.se
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Doran
>Doing what? Generally, people say this meaning that they would be in a
>sexual *and* romantic relationship with the person. What does "spending
>the rest of your life with [a woman]" mean to you?
Investing in lots of strap-ons. :-)
Sean.
Matt Freestone
> [ Hit ^P to read what Matthew said -- keep that bandwidth down ! ]
> When the dust from the end of those relationships settled, I found
> myself more strongly attracted to MOTOS.
<useful test snipped>
> At that time, I began to doubt that I
> was really bisexual -- after all, it wasn't something that had come
> to me as a form of enlightenment, it was more of a conscious choice
> (yes, some of us did actually choose our sexualities!), the MOTSS
> relationships had been under what might be termed extreme circumstances,
> and here I was with obvious tendencies towards heterosexuality (but
> not straightness (-8 that's beyond question).
I agree with this, though my reasons for becoming bi seem to stem from
a desire to get to the root cause of my lack of a motos relationship.
That is, I didn't like the way I behaved when I met a woman I found
attractive (a kind of shy lechery which I learned to mask by being
inoffensively friendly - this led to the unfortunate situation of being
'just friends' with several women I fancied) and I began to wonder
whether I could even up my treatment of people if I fancied men as
well. Once I'd started thinking of men in sexual terms though, I found
that the thought experiment developed a life of its own, and generated
a new sexuality in addition to my straight one. Its not as stong as
the original, but then it hasn't had as much time to develop :-)
To put it another way, I became bi because I didn't like the way being
straight seemed to make me behave. Umm.
> Well, the underlying
> attraction is still for MOTOS, so am I deceiving the world somehow if
> I claim to be bi when in fact I lean strongly towards heterosexuality?
> For me, the answer is "No" because my asexuality isn't an entirely
> internal matter, it has a distinct social component -- that is, being
> equally unattractive to men and women -- so even if I say I'm bi, and
> everyone else says I'm bi, all my interactions with people will treat
> me as asexual, even if that is never openly acknowledged.
This is spot on; why identify with a straight world that doesn't see
you as part of it?
Craig A. Schiller
: In article <3fuva3$5...@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA>, s56...@aix1.uottawa.ca (Craig A. Schiller) writes:
: [...apologies to Robert and Craig for the snip, but I *was* asked... *grin*]
: >arguments about X and Y beer (Canadian in-joke...input, Ani?) or whatnot.
: oh gawd, now you've gone and done it, Craig... yes, the idiotic
: chromosomal CopperBeer "test"...
Well, excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me! :-)
<snip>
: (oddly enough,
: in the commercials it seems that more women are voting for X and more men for
: Y... at least in the ones I've bothered to watch:)
Yeah, exactly--not a chromosomal thing there at all, eh? (Eh? Eh?)
<snip again>
: BTW, Craig, have you got that problem with your account fixed yet? (hope so:)
Yeah, it looks like it. It seems I never noticed that my server telnets
to the other server to use USENET, so I always post as "@aix1", when I'm
not on aix1 at all. Now I wonder how many people may have tried e-mailing
me about posts and had it bounce, other than on this special occasion.
Anyway, my _real_ e-mail address is in my .sig, for anyone who wants it.
: ObBi: Linda voice (Mike Myers, SNL-- what was it with that Scottish Soccer
: Hooligan Weekly crap last episode, anyway? but did you see the Internet bit
: with Darril? Should've been Buddy...;-) -- "Chromosomal-labelled beers are
: discriminatory and limiting" Discuss.
..though not as bad as if they had been labelled "breasts" and "pecker".
(Sorry, it was just crying out to be said.)
: --Ani, "if you don't vote, you've got nobody to blame but yourself for what
: ends up winning..." *laugh*
Natural Law in '98! Doug Henning for PM! *ROTFL*
--
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
& "If at first you don't succeed, redefine success." &
& cas: real e-mail address s56...@aix2.uottawa.ca &
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Pascalle v.d. Watering
: In article <1995Jan20....@compiler.tdcnet.nl> pasc...@compiler.tdcnet.nl (Pascalle v.d. Watering) writes:
: >For me it's a bit the same, I'm attracted to both sides but i could not
: >imagine having sex wit a female,
: Why not? Do you mean you can't even imagine it, or that when you do
: imagine it, it doesn't appeal to you?
Ok, I can emagine myself having sex with a woman, but...
You know what it is, it just seems strange. I had my coming out just a few
months ago and it still seems strange...
: >altough I know I could spend the rest of my life with one.
: Doing what? Generally, people say this meaning that they would be in a
: sexual *and* romantic relationship with the person. What does "spending
: the rest of your life with [a woman]" mean to you?
I'm very in for a romantic relationship, but i also mean sharing everything,
the happy things, the sad thing. Living together, and loving eachother.
Pascalle vd Watering
Craig A. Schiller
: ive been reading this thread with interest, especially the posts from men who
: feel the pressure to adopt gay stereotypes. i find this pressure somewhat
: from a few of the lesbians/bisexual women ive met, namely that if i dont stop
: shaving, stop wearing makeup/skirts/anything feminine, start listening to
: the indigo girls and start hating men (sorry - cant do that :)) that i somehow
: do not fit. ive even heard women who fit this description belittle lesbians/bi women who dont (lipsticks?) this is sad, because it inhibits me from visting support groups
: and so forth.
I was stupid enough to post an opinion to soc.motss last week about
internal stereotyping, and I sat back in awe as it turned within hours
into a flamewar about whether or not _I_ was the one being closed-minded
and judgemental. It was just an incredible sight. Basically what I asked
was "I'm not into the disco thing or drag or any of that, and why do so many
gay men feel the need to go out of their way to exclude men like me from
gay culture?" Somebody actually accused me of constructing a whole
identity just so I could "prove that I'm not one of (eeeeuw) them". That
is _totally_ ridiculous!
: i know that the short haired, combat boot wearing, folk music listening lesbian
: is a stereotype, but if it is, then why do i seem to meet the stereotype in
: person so often? or do i truly not fit in? sometimes i think people act out
: the stereotypes because its expected - one girl i know started doing *all
: of the above things* ive mentioned within a month of coming out!
That's the thing about stereotypes: it can't be a stereotype if it's not
true about _some_ members of that community. The danger is in assuming
that because _some_ people fit that mould, it means that _all_ people do
(or even that all people _should_).
: i guess what im trying to ask is - is it possible to be recognized and accepted as bi/gay/
: lesbian without fitting the stereotype? or must those of us who arent hetero
: adopt our sexual identity as our whole identity?
Sure it is--it's not as easy, though, because you'll always feel like you
have the gay gestapo standing over you with a checklist ("Haven't cut
your hair yet? Tut, tut!"), even when they're really not. It can be done,
however, and even though it's harder, I think I'm happier with myself
precisely because I have to fight even harder for what I want. There are
some lonely nights, sure, but I respect myself more for it than I would had
I changed my personality just for the sake of fitting in to the gay world.
: sorry if ive insulted anyone with this post - im sure many gay men love drag
: and many lesbian women love the indigo girls :) but im just trying to figure
: this out.
Anybody who can't accept that we have to be ourselves deserves to be
insulted.
*hug* (if you want it)
--Craig, whose motto is "illegitimi non carborundum" ("don't let the
bastards grind you down")
Andrew David Simchik
>I was stupid enough to post an opinion to soc.motss last week about
>internal stereotyping, and I sat back in awe as it turned within hours
>into a flamewar about whether or not _I_ was the one being closed-minded
>and judgemental. It was just an incredible sight. Basically what I asked
>was "I'm not into the disco thing or drag or any of that, and why do so many
>gay men feel the need to go out of their way to exclude men like me from
>gay culture?" Somebody actually accused me of constructing a whole
>identity just so I could "prove that I'm not one of (eeeeuw) them". That
>is _totally_ ridiculous!
That's soc.motss, and it's why I never read it. It happens here a lot more
than I'd like.
Drewcifer
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew D. Simchik, as0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu, sim...@cs.rochester.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aphrodite. Hermes. Schnopia. Zen. So.
Anthony Barreiro
P: vanv...@qlink.queensu.ca (DarkTri), while prying the lemmings from hir
ankles, P: exclaimed:
P: >You need to find ppl who are open minded (radical dykes, with whom I've
P: >had a LOT of contact, are sometimes just as close-minded as your average
P: >right winger) about _everything_ (bi culture is a damn good place to do
P: >it :).
P: Oh, I don't know about that. We certainly don't seem to be very tolerant
P: of radical dykes, or superfags, or conservative straight people. In fact,
P: a lot of us seem to downright disapprove of anything that isn't fluid.
I've been following this thread with interest, and increasing dismay, as we
enlightened bi people have been looking down our delicate aquiline noses at
those unimaginative insecure gay and lesbian people who have to look and act
the part ... . You don't know everything about a person just because they
conform to or don't conform to a particular stereotype. I know dykes who
wouldn't be caught dead without their Doc Marten's, flannel shirts, etc., and
faggots who know every word to every song Judy Garland ever recorded. So
what? It works for them. Cool. And there are aspects of gay culture I
really groove on -- especially the part where you get to be pretty and witty
and, well, gay ... . Does that encompass my entire being? Of course not.
But if you were to observe me on a *particularly* good night, you might think
I was superfaggot from planet x. So come visit me at work the next day and
watch me deal with a distraught client, or look over my shoulder while I
write up next year's budget, or come up to the mountains with me for a few
days ... . You'd get a different picture. In short, walk a mile in my
moccasins before you presume to pass judgement.
The human capacity to form an in-group by excluding the out-group, and then
for that in-group to split into another in-group and out-group (of course
which is the in-group and which the out-group is subject to interpretation)
will never cease to amaze me.
There. I feel better now. Thanks for listening.
Anthony
OUTline San Francisco
barr...@out.org
.sigless
Craig A. Schiller
: s56...@aix1.uottawa.ca (Craig A. Schiller), while prying the lemmings from hir ankles, exclaimed:
: Yeah, and I could sit here and whine about how no one in high school liked
: me because I wasn't like them. But I didn't then, and I don't now. Peer
: pressure only exists if you let it. In many cases, it only exists in your
: mind -- people are more than happy to accept you as you are once you show
: them who you are, and you both give each other time to get acquainted.
So tell it to the people who are walking up and lecturing me instead of
getting acquainted, not to me. I _always_ look at the person first.
I have _never_ judged a person unworthy of my company on such criteria
as how they dressed, what music they listen to, etc.
: So, do you just not like Madonna, or did you express disdain for the
: concept of liking Madonna? Everyone's insecure, everyone wants to be
: liked. It's much easier to get to know someone who seems to share your
: interests. And no one, but no one, has a "right to be liked".
I have never expressed disdain for the concept of liking Madonna--she
just doesn't appeal to me personally, and I refuse to pretend that she
does. As to the question of getting to know someone who shares your
interests, that's very true, but I don't consider the music I like to be
an interest, I consider it a part of my identity. Why is that the
criterion on which I'm judged? Why not on interests such as history,
Daniel Day-Lewis (*pant* *slobber*) movies, journalism, hiking, skiing,
etc., that I _know_ I share with many gay men?
My straight friends all know that you can get along with, and have the same
interests as, somebody who has completely different tastes in music than
you do. I don't want to give the impression that _all_ gay men judge me
unfairly, because I do have a few gay friends (all of whom live in other
cities) who respect me for myself. However, enough gay men feel the need
to judge me on shallow criteria, which bear no relation whatsoever to whether
I have the same interests as they do, that I feel uncomfortable in gay bars.
This is unfortunate, but it's true. And it is not my responsibility to change
my personality for their sake, any more than it is theirs to change their
culture for mine.
The next suggestion, obviously, will be "so don't go to the bars, find
other ways to meet gay people". I'm constantly keeping an eye out for
such avenues, but currently, every one there is in town either conflicts
with my class schedule or my work schedule, or I'm too old (youth group),
or too young (senior's group), or not interested (Stitch 'n Bitch?).
This, then, leaves either the bars or nothing at all.
Finally, if nobody has a "right to be liked", then what else is there?
Either you're liked, or you're alone. Nobody has a moral responsibility
to accept being alone all the time, either. To be alone _sometimes_ is
inevitable, doesn't contradict with being liked, and is frankly a good
idea. However, to be alone all the time, which is exactly what you would
be if you weren't liked, is something nobody has the right to expect of
you. Thus, if you have no right to be liked, and nobody else has any
right to expect you to be alone, where's the middle ground?
The way I look at it is that you have a right to be liked--you just have
no right to expect that EVERYONE is going to like you. And I _don't_
expect that. What I expect is that if somebody doesn't like me, they'll
at least not have decided they don't like me just because of how I dress,
or the fact that I don't dance.
: Piglet
DarkTri
[snip]
: The next suggestion, obviously, will be "so don't go to the bars, find
: other ways to meet gay people". I'm constantly keeping an eye out for
: such avenues, but currently, every one there is in town either conflicts
: with my class schedule or my work schedule, or I'm too old (youth group),
: or too young (senior's group), or not interested (Stitch 'n Bitch?).
: This, then, leaves either the bars or nothing at all.
*this is not a flame, sarcastic-type suggestion...*
Start something. It really sounds like there's a need. :)
_____________________________________________________________________________
DarkTri | ___ __ "How come I can pick my
aka Trish | / ~ \ ,,, ears but not my nose?
vanv...@qlink.queensu.ca || #=#==========# | Who made up those rules,
[and others] | \___-__/ ``` anyway?" -ani difranco
artemis
DarkTri <vanv...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
>Craig A. Schiller (s56...@aix1.uottawa.ca) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>: The next suggestion, obviously, will be "so don't go to the bars, find
>: other ways to meet gay people". I'm constantly keeping an eye out for
>: such avenues, but currently, every one there is in town either conflicts
>: with my class schedule or my work schedule, or I'm too old (youth group),
>: or too young (senior's group), or not interested (Stitch 'n Bitch?).
>: This, then, leaves either the bars or nothing at all.
>
>*this is not a flame, sarcastic-type suggestion...*
>
>Start something. It really sounds like there's a need. :)
This isn't fatuous advice. It worked for me. I didn't find any
particular social group I felt comfortable with. So I created my own.
And guess what. Turns out there's a lot of folks who felt real
similar.
And what holds us together isn't that we're "us vs. them" or we're an
exclusive clique, or anything like that. We're just a group of folks
with a lot of interests in common who fit outside of most other social
groups.
--
Anmar Mirza # Chief of Tranquility # I'm a cheap date,
EMT-D N9ISY # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # but an expensive pet.
Sawyer # Somewhere out on the # EOL
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch. DoD#1143 # My views, not the U's
David E. Drinkwater-Lunn
the culturally dominating groups' (in '' because I am not sure exactly
which groups that needs to be).
Yesterday I ran into one of the gay men I know here. I mentioned something
about doing weight-training lately. He then asked me, and I assume in no
way maliciously, merely obtusely:
'So, when you do wieght-training, is that more for men or for women.'
*sigh*
'I do it for me. *insertion point here* And if that happens to please
someone else, that's wonderful.'
*inserted thoughts* Yes, I _do_ do it for me. That for two reasons:
1) With my interst in men, maleness, masculinity, all of which lead to my
(mine, not necessarily anyone elses) bisexuality, I have become interested
in all sorts of aspencts of men. One of those is the relatively concrete
example of the male body, so I am working on mine.
2) I like bodies that are athletic, trim, fit, strong, etc. In men and
women. And I find it a little odd that I should want that in a partner,
and not be willing to live up to my own expectations myself.
So at any rate, I thought it a little sad and odd that it was necessary for
this guy to ask me which gender I do my workouts for. It seems rather
limiting.
David
--
David E. Drinkwater-Lunn
de...@cornell.edu, Demodave on IRC,
http://pooh.sozwiss.uni-konstanz.de/gblf.de/people/people.html on WWW
Wandering in wonder in the wilderness of Goettingen, Germany,
Pysically displaced from the Internet. Chronically disturbed.
And they say that the Internet is only a virtual reality...
... if all those people are so virtual, how can they feel so real...
Soon to be chilling in the northern city of Minneapolis, Minnesota
Andrew David Simchik
>In article <1995Jan27.2...@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> as0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Andrew David Simchik) writes:
>>In <3534846....@out.org> Anthony_...@out.org (Anthony Barreiro) writes:
>>>I've been following this thread with interest, and increasing dismay, as we
>>>enlightened bi people have been looking down our delicate aquiline noses at
>>>those unimaginative insecure gay and lesbian people who have to look and act
>>Funny. I'd been reading articles about bi people who are dismayed by being
>>expected to "look and act the part" by some gay and lesbian people. I must
>>have been reading a different thread.
>Oh, Drew...how quickly you forget...remember, any time you say anything
>that is not 100% positive about any g/l people (even if it's just one
>who's a jerk), no matter how much you qualify it, then you are being
>homophobic and/or bisupremacist.
Oh, yeah. Silly me. :)
D'fer
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew D. Simchik, as0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu, sim...@cs.rochester.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Satori. Slumber. Lunch.
Anthony Barreiro
Barkocy) wrote:
MB> In article <1995Jan27.2...@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
MB> as0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Andrew David Simchik) writes:
MB> >In <3534846....@out.org> Anthony_...@out.org (Anthony
Barreiro)
MB> writes:
MB> >>I've been following this thread with interest, and increasing dismay,
as we
MB> >>enlightened bi people have been looking down our delicate aquiline
noses at
MB> >>those unimaginative insecure gay and lesbian people who have to look
and act
MB>
MB> >Funny. I'd been reading articles about bi people who are dismayed by
being
MB> >expected to "look and act the part" by some gay and lesbian people. I
must
MB> >have been reading a different thread.
MB>
MB> Oh, Drew...how quickly you forget...remember, any time you say anything
MB> that is not 100% positive about any g/l people (even if it's just one
MB> who's a jerk), no matter how much you qualify it, then you are being
MB> homophobic and/or bisupremacist.
I made no such accusations. I only stated my appreciation of people who *do*
choose to look and act the part, said that I sometimes fit the stereotype,
and expressed my continual amazement at the human ability to divide up into
in-groups and out-groups. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Thank you,
Anthony
barr...@out.org
Ciaran McHale
>[...] remember, any time you say anything
>that is not 100% positive about any g/l people (even if it's just one
So you claim. And I claim that you are speaking a load of crap.
Ciaran.
--
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmc...@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Dist. Systems Group, Department of Computer Science, Trinity College,
\/ Dublin 2, Ireland. Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
http://www.dsg.cs.tcd.ie:/dsg_people/cjmchale/cjmchale.html
artemis
Anthony Barreiro <Anthony_...@out.org> wrote:
>In Message <3gjbkt$p...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, ami...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu
>(artemis) wrote:
>A> >
>A> >*this is not a flame, sarcastic-type suggestion...*
>A> >
>A> >Start something. It really sounds like there's a need. :)
>A>
>A> This isn't fatuous advice. It worked for me. I didn't find any
>A> particular social group I felt comfortable with. So I created my own.
>A> And guess what. Turns out there's a lot of folks who felt real
>A> similar.
>A>
>A> And what holds us together isn't that we're "us vs. them" or we're an
>A> exclusive clique, or anything like that. We're just a group of folks
>A> with a lot of interests in common who fit outside of most other social
>A> groups.
>
>I'd be really interested to hear more about your group. Do you have a name?
>what is/are your central focus/foci? How long have you been together? How
>often do you meet? How many people? Where do you fall along the formality
>continuum? Etc.?
Well, see, it's kinda complicated, ya see?
The social group with whom I grew up with were mainly folks much older
than myself, and as such included a lot of "old guard" folks, but it
also included a lot of folks who were willing to accept a young, know
it all punk for what he was and what he could be. Then, as I grew
older, many of those folks moved away, or developed other interests,
but, the old guard, being much what old guard is, was still there.
So, feeling somewhat alienated from the social grouping with whom I'd
previously identified, and older, more mature me started doing what
those kindly folk had done for me, I started welcoming new people,
making them feel a part of the group, listening to them, and generally
not judging them and allowing them to be who and what they were.
Well, it so happens that there were apparently quite a few folks who
felt the same way within th group, but had never quite been able to
express it. So, though it's fluctuated, for the last few years I've
been anywhere from smack dab in the middle of, or floating on the
periphery of, but mostly accepted by a group of people with whom I
have some identity, and with most whom I share a hobby, and though we
all attend the same meetings as the overall group, we have our own get
togethers, and there's a lot of interation within ourselves. Right
now theres usually at least ten to twelve of us when we get together,
but there's probably on the order of at least twenty different folks
who I consider part of that group, though, really, anyone who puts
forth the effort to show up whenever we're doing stuff, is welcome, we
ain't much of a clique, and that's the way I like to keep it. Part of
the basic tenet of the group is that beginners and new folks are
welcomed in.
Muffy Barkocy
In article <1995Feb1.1...@cs.tcd.ie> cjmc...@cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>mu...@bi.fish.com (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>[...] remember, any time you say anything
>>that is not 100% positive about any g/l people (even if it's just one
>>who's a jerk), no matter how much you qualify it, then you are being
>>homophobic and/or bisupremacist.
>So you claim. And I claim that you are speaking a load of crap.
*laugh*. Naturally, since you do that all the time. That's one reason
we're unlikely to ever get along - I don't like people who think that
one group is superior to all others and beyond criticism. Nor those who
think that saying anything positive about one group is necessarily
putting down another one.
Muffy
--
Muffy Barkocy ** mu...@fish.com ** http://fish.com/muffy.html
~Centered on silence/counting on nothing/I saw you standing on the sea/and
everything was/dark except for/sparks the wind struck from your hair/sparks
that turned to/wings around you/angel voices mixed with seabird cries/fields
of motion/surging outward/questions that contain their own replies~ - B. C.
Skyler Bode
Craig A. Schiller <s56...@aix1.uottawa.ca> wrote:
>DarkTri (vanv...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
>: Craig A. Schiller (s56...@aix1.uottawa.ca) wrote:
>I know I've been harping lately on how I feel a bit uncomfortable
>around so many gay men because of the actions of a few small-minded
>yahoos, and I know it sounds kind of stupid.
It's all too easy to fall into that trap; re the "hitting on men/hitting
on women" thread's earlier days, I think a few bad experiences can lead
to nervousness and discomfort around people who remind you of them. So
these small-minded yahoos were all gay, and your head somehow got their
unpleasant actions tied together with their sexuality...
I seem to recall you mentioning these people as involved in the "gay bar
scene." Been to any het "singles bars" lately? It might help you to
reprogram this reaction with the "meat market scene," whatever genders be
the predators and prey, as a more accurate determinant. :)
>Be fair to me, though, as
>I just haven't had the resources to make many positive LGB friendships,
>and so the number of negative experiences I've had are undoubtedly far
>out of proportion to the actual number of negative people in the community.
I think a relevant question to ask youself would be, "Which community is
that?" I mean, even within the set of people calling themselves "gay,"
there are several communities, not to mention the patchwork of groups,
interests, and cultures you get if you look for "communities that have major
interests in common with me in general."
Of course, the "pickup joint" scene is easier to find than a lot of other
communities.
Where do you look for decent people to hang out with in general? Could
that be extended?
>*mushy wet hugs to everyone*
*hugs right back atcha!*
-skyler
--
Skyler Bode - Cold and Tired and more than a little Human sky...@panix.com
Do What Thou Wilt and SMIILE
mischeivous poly bi pagan pianoplayer ISO muse he left somewhere inside him..
Muffy Barkocy
In article <3534846....@out.org> Anthony_...@out.org (Anthony Barreiro) writes:
>MB> >In <3534846....@out.org> Anthony_...@out.org (Anthony
>Barreiro)
>MB> writes:
>MB> >>I've been following this thread with interest, and increasing dismay,
>as we
>MB> >>enlightened bi people have been looking down our delicate aquiline
>noses at
>MB> >>those unimaginative insecure gay and lesbian people who have to look
>and act
>I made no such accusations. I only stated my appreciation of people who *do*
>choose to look and act the part, said that I sometimes fit the stereotype,
>and expressed my continual amazement at the human ability to divide up into
>in-groups and out-groups. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Okay, so let's see here - "enlightened bi people ... looking down
delicate aquiline noses" is not an accusation of bisupremacy, it's only
"amazement at the human ability to divide up into in-groups and
out-groups" and "those unimaginative insecure gay and lesbian people" is
not an accusation of homophobia, but "appreciation of people who *do*
choose to look and act the part" - is that the right translation?
Cappy Harrison
Drinkwater-Lunn) wrote:
> An interesting experience that seems related to the 'fitting into one of
> the culturally dominating groups' (in '' because I am not sure exactly
> which groups that needs to be).
>
> Yesterday I ran into one of the gay men I know here.
Cool! Yesterday _I_ ran into one of the gay men I know here...
> I mentioned something about doing weight-training lately.
My hair was wet. He asked if I got caught in the rain, and I said, "No, I
just came from the gym."
> He then asked me, and I assume in no way maliciously, merely obtusely:
> 'So, when you do wieght-training, is that more for men or for women.'
He then replied, in a joking but cynical manner, "Yeah, no one likes to see
a flabby body."
> *sigh*
> 'I do it for me. *insertion point here* And if that happens to please
> someone else, that's wonderful.'
*sigh*
My immediate impulse was to say, "Well, _I_ do." But for some reason, the
words didn't come out of my mouth. That had in part to do with the fact
that he was in a hurry, already late for a meeting. And in part it had to
do with the fact that I don't know him all that well, and didn't want to
get into my feelings around fat with him.
I've been working out lately for a few reasons:
1) I have this deal with my insurance company that if I go 120 times in a
year, I get $200.00 back. So right now my primary motivation is _cash_.
2) I like having muscle definition. It feels cool! (And I feel so
_butch_. *girlish giggle* )
3) I like having better endurance. I don't like being short-winded after
walking up two flights of stairs.
4) Even though I know I won't stop being fat from the working out I'm
doing, I feel better about my body simply because I'm doing something
_good_ for it.
5) I have moderately high cholesterol levels (last it was checked) and
exercise is supposed to help reduce that.
6) I like people of _all_ body types, although I've noticed that right now
I've tended toward larger men, men with muscles _and_ fat. And there seems
to be a larger number of guys with beards in my life right now. *grin* In
women, well, I've almost always been with women as large or larger than me,
although right now I do have a female lover who is considerably smaller
than me. What does this have to do with me working out? Well, not much.
But it does have to do with my body image. (Apologies to those who've
heard me say this before...) When I realized that I was attracted to women
with my body type, I started being able to eroticize my _own_ body. I
became able to look at my naked self in the mirror and get turned on. This
did _wonders_ for my self-esteem!! :^)
-----------------------------------------------------
Cappy Harrison -- biqueerpolydyke.
khar...@sas.upenn.edu
Skyler Bode
Cappy Harrison <khar...@mail.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>I've been working out lately for a few reasons:
>
>1) I have this deal with my insurance company that if I go 120 times in a
>year, I get $200.00 back. So right now my primary motivation is _cash_.
Gee, wish I had a deal like that! That might just get even _me_ into the
gym. That's almost as good a motivation as having a friend or lover to
work out with. :)
>3) I like having better endurance. I don't like being short-winded after
>walking up two flights of stairs.
Yeah, I knowhatcha mean. Now that I'm living at the bottom of a hill, I
get my morning workout though... 15 minutes uphill brisk walk, while not
much, has done wonders for my endurance and my legs (now I need a skirt.
*smirk*)
>6) I like people of _all_ body types, although I've noticed that right now
>I've tended toward larger men, men with muscles _and_ fat.
Oh? Anyone I know? *giggle*
>And there seems
>to be a larger number of guys with beards in my life right now. *grin*
*cryptic cackle*
Lynn
>for myself, rather than lectured for not being somebody else. That's the
>kind of exclusion I meant: far too often in my life, I've been rejected
>by potential gay friends because I'm not the right "kind of person", [...]
Excuse me?
I don't know how you are defining 'friends' in that sentence, but I
read that paragraph as the 'I want everyone to like me' form of
insecurity. Mature a bit, will ya'.
Most poeple have a smallish number of friends. We live in a very
diverse world. Rather than bitch about it, learn to enjoy it and
celebrate it. And don't look at everyone as a 'potential friend.'
Feelings of friendship or love grow from interactions with people. If
you start with a Potential Friend Agenda you are likely to cause a
reaction that you don't want.
Lynn (Is your theme song "I'm gonna eat some worms"?)
Craig A. Schiller
: It's all too easy to fall into that trap; re the "hitting on men/hitting
: on women" thread's earlier days, I think a few bad experiences can lead
: to nervousness and discomfort around people who remind you of them. So
: these small-minded yahoos were all gay, and your head somehow got their
: unpleasant actions tied together with their sexuality...
: I seem to recall you mentioning these people as involved in the "gay bar
: scene." Been to any het "singles bars" lately? It might help you to
: reprogram this reaction with the "meat market scene," whatever genders be
: the predators and prey, as a more accurate determinant. :)
Actually, I've really only had good experiences in het singles bars--I
don't really go with the intention of picking up, but I also don't have
people walking up to me there and criticizing me for the way I dress, or
for not dancing, or deciding to share their opinion of my looks just for
my personal edification (ie. "You know, you really should wear masking
makeup over that little scar on your lip!") I realize that there are
headgames going on in that scene too, but so far I've been spared the
dubious honour of being the victim. Then again, I can go to a straight
singles bar with friends and just not be a part of the whole casual sex M.O.
Having few close gay friends, I can't really do the same in the gay singles
scene.
: I think a relevant question to ask youself would be, "Which community is
: that?" I mean, even within the set of people calling themselves "gay,"
: there are several communities, not to mention the patchwork of groups,
: interests, and cultures you get if you look for "communities that have major
: interests in common with me in general."
As I've mentioned previously, however, every such group that's available
in this city either conflicts with my schedule, or I'm in the wrong age
bracket, or I'm just not interested (needlepoint? Give me a royal break
here!) The only one I'm really able to go to is the bi dinner group. As
great as that is, it doesn't really meet as often as I'd like. The
campus group is one of the ones that conflicts with my schedule, BTW.
: Of course, the "pickup joint" scene is easier to find than a lot of other
: communities.
: Where do you look for decent people to hang out with in general? Could
: that be extended?
In general, most of my friends have come from working at the campus media
outlets. How to extend? You tell me: here, we have possibly the only
university paper in Canada with no openly lesbigay regular contributors.
(I'm honest if I'm asked, but not really "out"--and nobody really asks.)
There are a few occasional contributors who are gay, but I've never had
the opportunity to meet them. As for the radio station, there are five
gay people that I know of: three who are _only_ there at times when I'm
in class, one whom I see rarely at best, and one I work with regularly,
who has a reputation for being a bit of a jerk. Although it helps to
have an ally in the place, I can't honestly say it's too likely that
he'll ever be a close friend. He's _usually_ nice to me (if to nobody
else there), but he's also way too busy to actually do coffee or anything,
as he has a real job on the side.
: >*mushy wet hugs to everyone*
: *hugs right back atcha!*
Thanks! *basking in the hug*
*aaaaah, feels gooooooood!!!*
: -skyler
: --
: Skyler Bode - Cold and Tired and more than a little Human sky...@panix.com
^I _have_ this album, _why_ can't I remember
which song that line is from?
: Do What Thou Wilt and SMIILE
: mischeivous poly bi pagan pianoplayer ISO muse he left somewhere inside him..
--
Skyler Bode
Craig A. Schiller <s56...@aix1.uottawa.ca> wrote:
>Actually, I've really only had good experiences in het singles bars--I
>don't really go with the intention of picking up, but I also don't have
>people walking up to me there and criticizing me for the way I dress, or
[etc.]
Hm. Do you dress similarly to the rest of the guys there? I think all
"communities" contain a number of people who despise anything
"different," especially if they're the kind of person who tries to feel
superior by demeaning all other "communities." And, of course you only
see these people if you can see them react to somethig "different;"
otherwise, they're just part of the crowd, eh?
Imagine how the folks in the usual het singles bar would react to a man
walking in wearing a dress. I'd bet the reaction would be much worse
than that at a drag bar upon seeing a bluejean-clad man.
I guess my point is, everywhere you look, there're people who will
criticize or put down someone whom they perceive as "other." It sounds
like you are perceived as part of the "in-crowd" at the het bars you go
to, (which I'm not putting you down for, btw...) but aren't part of the
corresponding "in-crowd" in the gay bars you've been to, and really have
no desire to conform to those particular "in-crowds."
I wish you much good fortune in finding either an "in-crowd" of gay folk
(or bi, or just queer-friendly, whatever you want) that you feel
comfortable in, or maybe some gay/bi/whatever people who aren't busy
building walls between "us" and "them."
[tale of wicked schedule and lack of a "queer scene" on campus deleted]
Yow. Good luck!
>: Skyler Bode - Cold and Tired and more than a little Human sky...@panix.com
> ^I _have_ this album, _why_ can't I remember
> which song that line is from?
Could be because the title of the song is mentioned _once_ in the song,
and kind of mumbled at that. I'll give you a hint - it's one of the two
"half-title" songs...
-skyler
--
Skyler Bode - Cold and Tired and more than a little Human sky...@panix.com
DarkTri
[snip]
: women, well, I've almost always been with women as large or larger than me,
: although right now I do have a female lover who is considerably smaller
: than me. What does this have to do with me working out? Well, not much.
: But it does have to do with my body image. (Apologies to those who've
: heard me say this before...) When I realized that I was attracted to women
: with my body type, I started being able to eroticize my _own_ body. I
: became able to look at my naked self in the mirror and get turned on. This
: did _wonders_ for my self-esteem!! :^)
YES! *ahem* Yes. I know EXACTLY what you mean. Before my current
partner (female), I had always dates very slim (sometimes skinny) women,
and always felt very butch... with the side effect that I never knew what
it was like to be HELD. Whether it was the women, or their size, I don't
know, but for me being held has to do with safety and protection, and
someone that small just can't provide it for me.
But my current partner... *sighing smile* She's my size. It's perfect.
For months after I met her I just revelled in burrowing into her arms and
breasts, completely held and safe... it was (is) amazing. :)
Not only that but we've developed (!!insufferably cute warning!!) little
rituals to _appreciate_ our soft tummies, like rubbing them together and
yelling "fat FUUUN!" and stupid things like that... ok, so it's stupid,
but damn it feels good. :) Finally I've achieved my accustomed attitude
about life ("f*** off, I am therefore there's nothing wrong with it")
about what has been more ridiculed than my queerness - weight.
Anyhow, thanks, you struck a chord...
Ann Burlingham
In a previous article, khar...@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Cappy Harrison) says:
>But when random people on the street make snide comments, or are rude in
>other ways, I'm learning the joy of screaming back, and of not being
>embarrassed into silence by their behavior.
[plugging ears] Oh, dear. If you must.
I like the lifted-eyebrow-those-are-certainly-RUDE-people approach, if I
deign to notice their existence at all.
But you know I can recite Miss Manners from memory, too.
-Ann, whose silence is more likely to be frosty than embarrassed, in such
situations
--
Ann Burlingham Sears Library Case Western Reserve University
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
-Alice
Ann Burlingham
In a previous article, de...@cornell.edu (David E. Drinkwater-Lunn) says:
>In article <ROBERT.95Jan19203218@hobbes>, robert@hobbes (Robert Cumming)
>wrote:
>> In article <3fjlj6$e...@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA> s56...@aix1.uottawa.ca
>> (Craig A. Schiller) writes:
>>
>> ... I very often feel out of place and uncomfortable in gay
>> settings, partly because of my romantic attractions to women, and partly
>> because I just don't feel like gay culture has a place for me. On the
>> whole, I find my personality more compatible with the straight world than
>> with the gay one.
Are you saying that your MOTOS attractions are more valued there?
A heterosexist society where everything not specifically labelled "gay
culture" is _presumed_ to be "straight culture" wouldn't have anything to
do with your feelings of comfort, would it?
>I often feel that my attractions to women are undervalued in gay spaces as
>well, but I'll be damned if I'll give them up...
You rebel! Come on - how many places in this world do we have that affirm
(let alone stuff down our throats) opposite-sex attraction, relationships,
etc.? Do you understand at all the wish to escape from that?
>> I get the feeling that wearing on for half of what we perceive as the
>> gay community don't feel it's entirely their thing either. Gay culture
>> is a funny thing -- you do feel you have to at least pretend to like
>> some bloke dressed up as a vamp singing 'I will survive', or dancing
>> to 'Don't leave me this way', or wearing something either grossly pink
>> or hopelessly leathery.
You do? I know a lot of people who don't seem to feel that way.
>> My personality isn't really any more compatible
>> with this picture of gay culture than it is with all the prejudices I
>> had about queers before I came out; very probably gay culture _does_
>> have a place for me, it's just that it's less than 10% of the size of
>> straight culture, so it's harder to find that place.
It seems like you're also making smoe assumptions about "men in tights" and
"men in leather;" that they aren't additionally men like *you*. "Diversity"
isn't just about different groups of people, it's about the diversity of
individuals.
>Or that there may be more than 10% gay culture and we just can't recognize
>it, because it isn't so precisely labeled as gay, or because it doesn't fit
>our stereotypes of gay culture, whether those stereotypes fit out true
>interests or not.
Right. As I said above, I think we need to break out of our ideas of what
is "gay" and what is "straight" culture; when I'm there, honey, what*ever*
it is is a part of *my* culture.
Andrew David Simchik
>In article <3gcni9$q...@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA>,
>Craig A. Schiller <s56...@aix1.uottawa.ca> wrote:
>>
>>I do, however, expect when I'm in a gay setting that I will be respected
>>for myself, rather than lectured for not being somebody else. That's the
>>kind of exclusion I meant: far too often in my life, I've been rejected
>>by potential gay friends because I'm not the right "kind of person", [...]
>Excuse me?
>I don't know how you are defining 'friends' in that sentence, but I
>read that paragraph as the 'I want everyone to like me' form of
>insecurity. Mature a bit, will ya'.
You're not the first person to suggest that reading. I *don't* see that
here. While I don't necessarily agree with Craig, I think there's something
more going on in his mind than puppy-doggishness.
>Most poeple have a smallish number of friends. We live in a very
>diverse world. Rather than bitch about it, learn to enjoy it and
>celebrate it. And don't look at everyone as a 'potential friend.'
>Feelings of friendship or love grow from interactions with people. If
>you start with a Potential Friend Agenda you are likely to cause a
>reaction that you don't want.
>Lynn (Is your theme song "I'm gonna eat some worms"?)
From what I've read from you here, Lynn, I respect you greatly. But I don't
think this was either justified or called for.
Drewcifer
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew D. Simchik, as0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu, sim...@cs.rochester.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Are you...funny?" "Funny? I'm *hilarious*."
Muffy Barkocy
In article <ded1-010...@gwdx10.gwdg.de> de...@cornell.edu (David E. Drinkwater-Lunn) writes:
>Yesterday I ran into one of the gay men I know here. I mentioned something
>about doing weight-training lately. He then asked me, and I assume in no
>way maliciously, merely obtusely:
>'So, when you do wieght-training, is that more for men or for women.'
>So at any rate, I thought it a little sad and odd that it was necessary for
>this guy to ask me which gender I do my workouts for. It seems rather
>limiting.
Well, I don't know the guy and you do. However, I would have
interpreted that question rather differently from how you did. I would
have thought that he was wondering, since men and women are different
(I'm assuming that he thinks this, as many people do) and that they like
different things in their partners (again a common assumption, and also
often the case) that, assuming you *were* doing the weight training to
attract partners (which is also very common), that it would appeal to
people of one sex more than the other.
I do see those assumptions as being rather limiting to men and women,
but I don't think that's the same as what you had in mind. How do you
think, given your interpretation of what he said, that he is limiting,
and to who?
Ann Burlingham
In a previous article, as0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Andrew David Simchik) says:
>That's soc.motss, and it's why I never read it.
Anyone want to hear my opinion of newsgroups *I* don't read?
David E. Drinkwater-Lunn
Barkocy) wrote:
>
> In article <ded1-010...@gwdx10.gwdg.de> de...@cornell.edu (David E. Drinkwater-Lunn) writes:
> >'So, when you do wieght-training, is that more for men or for women.'
> [...]
> >So at any rate, I thought it a little sad and odd that it was necessary for
> >this guy to ask me which gender I do my workouts for. It seems rather
> >limiting.
>
> Well, I don't know the guy and you do. However, I would have
> interpreted that question rather differently from how you did. I would
> have thought that he was wondering, since men and women are different
> (I'm assuming that he thinks this, as many people do) and that they like
> different things in their partners (again a common assumption, and also
> often the case) that, assuming you *were* doing the weight training to
> attract partners (which is also very common), that it would appeal to
> people of one sex more than the other.
>
> I do see those assumptions as being rather limiting to men and women,
> but I don't think that's the same as what you had in mind. How do you
> think, given your interpretation of what he said, that he is limiting,
> and to who?
I guess I think it's limiting to me, because it says that I would expect
one gender or the other to appreciate a certain body type (in this case,
athletic and trained) more than the other gender does. I would hope that
both genders do. I certainly know that gay men exist who like it, and I
know there are straight women who like it. I as a bisexual man exist, and
I like it. Any bi-women out there who like it? *grin*
As I originally said, I do the work-outs for _me_. I certainly consider it
limiting to me, that he should assume that I do my workouts for anyone else
with the (somewhat implied goal) of attracting other people. He sort of
ignored the possibility that I do it for me. I know, I'd certianly like to
attract people, but I'd also like to think that I have a little more depth
than superficial body (image) building.
David
Nyani-Iisha Martin
: : Quite frankly, I'm just as happy those men eliminated themselves from
: : my interest pool -- I don't have to waste any time finding out if we'd
: : be compatible, they've just proven we aren't. Yippee!
: Okay, fine then. Does not having a right to be liked also include not
: having a right to select an environment where you ARE liked?
I have to say that I haven't seen anyone say that, or any of the other
statements that you asked about. I think that people *have* been saying
that you should go forth and create the environment that you want, but
that is a very daunting task, much easier said than done.
: Does it include having to smile meekly and say "Yes, sir" if somebody
: decides to object to "who I appear to be" given the way I dress and the
: music I listen to?
Now this, I think, goes under "the right to be respected". I *do* think
that people have a right to a certain amount of respect until they
explicitly abandon the privilige by being ass****s in some form or
another. Those who find you wanting because you don't listen to music you
approve of have just proven themselves unworthy of your respect, and they
sure as heck don't have the right to disrespect you that way, I feel.
Leave them be, as Piglet indirectly suggests in her example that you
quoted; if they are such asses, don't bother caring what they think.
: Does it mean I have a moral responsibility to be a part of a community
: that doesn't seem to want me?
This one I would say "no" on, too. I'm Black, and when I was in junior
high and high school the other Black kids ostracized me for being an
"Oreo". (My father still tosses that at me when he gets mad enough.) I
wasn't "Black enough" for them.
So, I cried, dried my tears, and made friends with those White kids who
would give me the time of day. With 5 billion people on the planet, there
must be someone for everyone, no?
: Or does it mean I should change my personality, even though there's
: absolutely nothing wrong with it?
(As an aside, I wouldn't say that *anyone* has a personality with
absolutely nothing wrong with it, but that's my cavil). I don't think you
should change to suit anyone but yourself and your deity, should you have
one or more. However, you *can* change your associates, can't
you? Somehow, find people that will like you for yourself, in some way,
shape, or form, even to making friends on the net?
Pollyanna^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Ny