File manager interface

[Felipe]

Hi all 

We've just hit a point we have enough substance to talk about the file manager interface here's a summary:

Add Files - From your computer

- Step one: you can pick multiple files or simply drag and drop files from your pc to the "dropable area"

- Step two: files you've added start load and you can edit their info diring the upload process more files you add bigger the queue  

Add Files - From the internet (to be done)

- the intention is to add files from the internet by url or getting by famous services like flickr, youtube, soundcloud, vimeo, facebook (each of those may need to be a separate module)

- for now that's no intention in download the file from the remote location and store on the site server, would be an interesting option but it needs to be cleared with developers first

Find and organize - Gallery view

- side panel with folders (for now the idea is not having nested folders and create a tree manager out of it ) you can open the folder by clicking at it, delete by hover and delete (it will be revisited on tablets - maybe a cog icon somewhere will display de delete buttons), and type and hit plus to add a new one

- search can be done by filetype

- ability to multiselect (html5) 

- on click it opens the image edit view, on the cog there will be actions like select, delete, rename etc (still to be defined)

Find and organize - List view

- sample of the folders panel collapsed

- ability to multi select files and do batch actions like delete, move to a different folder, create a new folder with the selection and more to be defined

- ability to re-order files

Find and organize - File detail view (to be done)

- we're considering having a dedicated view for each file 

- there you'll be able to change tags, titles, description, check file versioning, create a new version, replace that instance, remove etc

we're open to discussions on that now so please let me know about your thoughts..

Cheers

Felipe

[Dan Rye]

Looking great!  Only comment I have is I like that you use 'Move to Set',  if your not going to have a tree structures for folders why not call them sets as well.  Either way it'd be nice to be consistent between those names.

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[spronk]

I'm going to guess the first link should be
https://github.com/silverstripe/silverstripe-design/blob/21f940daed4533809f52950b167956a8644538f5/Design/ss3-ui_files-manager-add-files.jpg
?

I'm definitely liking the direction of the new SS UI in a lot of
places - especially the simplification of it, so props to the good
work thus far. Some comments:

- Gallery view looks very nice - the box selection is a good addition
(providing it works nicely :P)
- I would like to see a bit more thought go into the pagination -
numbers offer little affordance for large galleries. Perhaps date-
based pagination, or alphabetical pagination?

I have a couple of points of concern:

1. The add files view - where do these files go upon first upload?
Are they in a state of limbo, or do they go to a default area? I'd be
interested to see some sort of workflow plan here
2. I think nested folder hierarchies are almost a requirement for
larger sites with a lot of files to manage - and I don't think it
would be a difficult addition to the view you have currently - there's
plenty of space for second and third level <ul>s, especially if you
collapse them when not in their tree.

I would also suggest uploads from the page interfaces themselves
should automatically be placed in a folder for that particular page
(or at very least have this available as a simple default option). The
number of clients I've seen with a massive single "Uploads" folder
with zero organisation is concerning, and I can imagine a lot of time
gets wasted there.

Like the idea of a dedicated file detail view - I'd love to see this
move away from the modal lightbox-style dialog, too. Think multi-
browser-tab-friendly :)

Cheers
Keith

On Mar 4, 10:33 am, Felipe <felipeskro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all
> We've just hit a point we have enough substance to talk about the file
> manager interface here's a summary:
>

> *Add Files - From your computer<https://github.com/silverstripe/silverstripe-design/blob/21f940daed45...>
> *

> - Step one: you can pick multiple files or simply drag and drop files from
> your pc to the "dropable area"
> - Step two: files you've added start load and you can edit their info diring

> the upload process more files you add bigger the queue * *
> *
> *
> *Add Files - From the internet (to be done)*

> - the intention is to add files from the internet by url or getting by
> famous services like flickr, youtube, soundcloud, vimeo, facebook (each of
> those may need to be a separate module)
> - for now that's no intention in download the file from the remote location
> and store on the site server, would be an interesting option but it needs to
> be cleared with developers first
>

> *Find and organize - Gallery view<https://github.com/silverstripe/silverstripe-design/blob/21f940daed45...>
> *

> - side panel with folders (for now the idea is not having nested folders and
> create a tree manager out of it ) you can open the folder by clicking at it,
> delete by hover and delete (it will be revisited on tablets - maybe a cog
> icon somewhere will display de delete buttons), and type and hit plus to add
> a new one
> - search can be done by filetype
> - ability to multiselect (html5)
> - on click it opens the image edit view, on the cog there will be actions
> like select, delete, rename etc (still to be defined)
>

> *Find and organize - List view<https://github.com/silverstripe/silverstripe-design/blob/21f940daed45...>
> *

> - sample of the folders panel collapsed
> - ability to multi select files and do batch actions like delete, move to a
> different folder, create a new folder with the selection and more to be
> defined
> - ability to re-order files
>

> *Find and organize - File detail view (to be done)*

> - we're considering having a dedicated view for each file
> - there you'll be able to change tags, titles, description, check file
> versioning, create a new version, replace that instance, remove etc
>
> we're open to discussions on that now so please let me know about your
> thoughts..
>
> Cheers
> Felipe
>

> *
> *

[Martijn Van Nieuwenhoven]

I really advocate for nested folders in some manner.... I personaly use them a lot...

And with would be nice to simply replace an image with another, so that all links to that file are updated..

[howardgrigg]

Hi Felipe,

I haven't posted yet but have been following the development and
design of SS3 and am excited in the direction that it's going!

One small idea - in the .ai file you have concepts for "Replace Image"
form field for uploading images outside of the file manager. On the
second option, before an image is attached, there is a gray square in
place of the thumbnail - it would be quite cool if that gray square
could be a "Drop area" (HTML5 style).

Let's just hope that the developers can pull off this ambitious
redesign :)

Cheers,
Howard

On Mar 4, 7:33 am, Felipe <felipeskro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all
> We've just hit a point we have enough substance to talk about the file
> manager interface here's a summary:
>

> *Add Files - From your computer<https://github.com/silverstripe/silverstripe-design/blob/21f940daed45...>
> *

> - Step one: you can pick multiple files or simply drag and drop files from
> your pc to the "dropable area"
> - Step two: files you've added start load and you can edit their info diring

> the upload process more files you add bigger the queue * *
> *
> *

> *Add Files - From the internet (to be done)*

> - the intention is to add files from the internet by url or getting by
> famous services like flickr, youtube, soundcloud, vimeo, facebook (each of
> those may need to be a separate module)
> - for now that's no intention in download the file from the remote location
> and store on the site server, would be an interesting option but it needs to
> be cleared with developers first
>

> *Find and organize - Gallery view<https://github.com/silverstripe/silverstripe-design/blob/21f940daed45...>
> *

> - side panel with folders (for now the idea is not having nested folders and
> create a tree manager out of it ) you can open the folder by clicking at it,
> delete by hover and delete (it will be revisited on tablets - maybe a cog
> icon somewhere will display de delete buttons), and type and hit plus to add
> a new one
> - search can be done by filetype
> - ability to multiselect (html5)
> - on click it opens the image edit view, on the cog there will be actions
> like select, delete, rename etc (still to be defined)
>

> *Find and organize - List view<https://github.com/silverstripe/silverstripe-design/blob/21f940daed45...>
> *

> - sample of the folders panel collapsed
> - ability to multi select files and do batch actions like delete, move to a
> different folder, create a new folder with the selection and more to be
> defined
> - ability to re-order files
>

> *Find and organize - File detail view (to be done)*

> - we're considering having a dedicated view for each file
> - there you'll be able to change tags, titles, description, check file
> versioning, create a new version, replace that instance, remove etc
>
> we're open to discussions on that now so please let me know about your
> thoughts..
>
> Cheers
> Felipe
>

> *
> *

[Liam Whittle]

Looks great. Really love the direction.

+1 for finding a way to get nested folders in there. Having everything top level would get sloppy and confusing for larger sites. eg. 2 or 3+ galleries with multiple sub albums/folders would be hard to manage without nested folders.

[Hamish Campbell]

All looks awesome, an I really like the idea of sets, but could you
clarify:

On Mar 4, 10:33 am, Felipe <felipeskro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...for now the idea is not having nested folders and
> create a tree manager out of it...

Are sets the same as folders?

As others have said, nested folders are pretty important when you've
got lots of documents to organise (I've got a site with nearly 10,000
pdfs, for example). Users quite often like to have their own folders
for some uploads. Typically you might have a folder "UsersFiles" with
their sub folders inside as a natural tree structure. It's also a
security dilemma when you want fine grained security permissions for
file assets (plug: Secure Files module).

I don't think it necessarily needs a tree view interface though.
Perhaps when opening the folder view the Folder bar changes to show
sub folders (and an 'Up' button), or sub folders pop to a new bar to
the right of the Folder bar.

[Hamish Friedlander]

Possibly silly thought - what about getting rid of folders entirely and using tags instead? Put a cloud tag on the side where the "folders" view is currently. This is how sites like flickr deal with organising images, yeah? 

Advantages: Images can be in more than one tag. You can select more than one tag at a time to build a dynamic filter. Easy to set on the upload screen, both for all uploaded files & per file.

Disadvantages: People are used to the folder concept, less used to tagging. Especially current SS2.4 users.

We could expand the idea to include other filters on the left side - size ("thumbnails", "small", "large" or custom like "sidebar", "main attract"), date uploaded, aspect ratio, type (video, image), etc.

Hamish Friedlander

SilverStripe

[Felipe Skroski]

As much as I like tags users are simply too used to folders. I think we should have both systems in place and let the user decide how its the best way to classify their files.

The only thing I don't want is the bloody tag cloud those things are the mullets of webdesign... there are more elegant options to implement browse by tags.

Like the idea of filters it can be really useful.

Given the feedback so far I'd drop the folders from the sidebar and turn that into a filter bar and have the folders as icons just like an OS so you click on them to open 

and have a back button to go a level up...

[Dan Rye]

Given the feedback so far I'd drop the folders from the sidebar and turn that into a filter bar and have the folders as icons just like an OS so you click on them to open 

and have a back button to go a level up...

Yes, but If we have folders, why not support a tree view tab, reuse the same UI from treeview for pages.  So we'd have tree, list, and gallery views.

Filters and Tags +1 - Love them.

[Felipe Skroski]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Dan Rye <dan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Given the feedback so far I'd drop the folders from the sidebar and turn that into a filter bar and have the folders as icons just like an OS so you click on them to open 

and have a back button to go a level up...

Yes, but If we have folders, why not support a tree view tab, reuse the same UI from treeview for pages.  So we'd have tree, list, and gallery views.

I was just thinking about that but in the other way around, what if we have a gallery view for pages with the thumbnail of each page and have a consistent tree / list / gallery for both files and pages?

 just thinking out loud here I have no idea if its feasible... 

anyway its a good idea and I don't think there is a problem using the tree to view files ... 

[Al Twohill]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Felipe Skroski <felipe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As much as I like tags users are simply too used to folders. I think we
> should have both systems in place and let the user decide how its the best
> way to classify their files.

At the end of the day, the only difference between tags and folders in
my view are that folders have parent folders, and files can only be in
one folder (without counting hard links etc).

Why not just implement it so tags *can* have parents, and they
'pretend' to be folders in every user-visible aspect?
The physical location can be the 'primary tag', so static linking
works as expected, and then additional tags are just standard tags
(not reflected in the filesystem directly).

> The only thing I don't want is the bloody tag cloud those things are the
> mullets of webdesign... there are more elegant options to implement browse
> by tags.

Hahaha!

--
The project has begun...

[Martijn Van Nieuwenhoven]

I think tagging is a nice feature, but clients find Silverstripe easy to use, because it feels like their desktop environment.
The SiteTree, Users and Files look like their Emailclient or File Explorer/Finder..

Ofcourse we need to educate our clients sometimes in order to deliver a better product and the client is not always right, but in this case I think a folder structure is something even noobs understand.
Maybe move more to the Apple Finder instead of a Windows Explorer like Folder view where underlying folders are displayed in a new column?...

--

[Uncle Cheese]

I'm opposed to keeping the old folder tree. It's just too dated, and
too operating system-like. From what I'm seeing so far, this CMS is
far to progressive to be fettered by old ideas like that.

We're seeing filesystems become more and more obfuscated in modern
interfaces. I've never had an easier time finding a file than on an
iPad or iPhone, where the filesystem is completely transparent, and I
don't have to think about a hierarchy of arbitrary namespaces just to
find something I want. Most users think in terms of metadata -- not a
tree.



On Mar 4, 6:35 am, Martijn Van Nieuwenhoven <marva...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I think tagging is a nice feature, but clients find Silverstripe easy to
> use, because it feels like their desktop environment.
> The SiteTree, Users and Files look like their Emailclient or File
> Explorer/Finder..
>
> Ofcourse we need to educate our clients sometimes in order to deliver a
> better product and the client is not always right, but in this case I think
> a folder structure is something even noobs understand.
> Maybe move more to the Apple Finder instead of a Windows Explorer like
> Folder view where underlying folders are displayed in a new column?...
>
>
>

> On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Al Twohill <moebiusproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Felipe Skroski <felipeskro...@gmail.com>

[Dan Rye]

Just to make sure it is clear I was talking about the new tree UI, not
the old. But your point still stands. I think it is still important
to have a hierarchal view, even if it is more like apple finder than a
tree.

Sent from my iPhone

[Martin Pales]

Hi!

many thanks Felipe for that fresh air in the CMS design!

I also support the idea of tags/labels/metadata, but still would like to be able to use the old fashioned ftp to push files into directories under the /assets folder and see it in the CMS. 

Also my clients are used to add/delete files that way. Some of them don't even use the Files and Images section - ImageField/FileField and similar (with folderName parameter set) combined with ftp upload is all they need. 

If we keep all the metadata in the database and throw all the files in one common directory, then it would be a mess to find what exactly to delete when using an ftp client.

It would be foolish to pretend and try to persuade our users that folders do not exist.

I would like to see the best of both worlds - allow users to create folders and also apply labels/tags.

Martin

[spronk]

Not so sure I agree with most users thinking in terms of metadata and
not trees. In the context of most websites (as opposed to say, blogs),
there's a content heirarchy set out for you by the site tree. I would
wager that shifting to metadata/tags is actually less aligned with the
paradigm these users consider when managing files for their websites.

I think what we have identified though is that there are users on both
side of the fence. I know that a single level of tags is not really
flexible enough for many of the client sites I've worked on. However,
in the same breath, the single-level tagging paradigm is probably
superior for a lot of the smaller sites I've worked on.

Looking at the above comments, I see that a lot of others aren't keen
on dropping folder hierarchies. Perhaps the best solution is
hierarchical tags. This system could be used to emulate single level
tags for simple websites, yet expand in flexibility to emulate folder
hierarchies for complex websites.

I think that if the goal of SS is to be more enterprise-site-friendly,
having hierarchical support here *in some way* is essential.

Keith

[malte@eos]

Hi Felipe,

I join my previous writers. I am pretty excited about the direction
SilverStripe is going.

But I recommend providing some hierarchical structures for the file
management. From our daily work with customers, you’ll need a system,
which is accessible via FTP. We regularly upload big videos, which is
not possible via Browser (also not with Flash or any other System). So
you have to have a proper folder structure for not storing all of them
in one folder.

Keith suggests some interface, which is placed in a folder for a
particular page. We have create something similar as decorator for
2.4. Our customers are loving it. There is new Tab called FileManager
in the SiteTree-CMSForm, where you can upload your files directly with
UncleCheese’s FileDataObjectManager. A Folder is automatically created
with URLSegment-Path. The editor can select any File, which is
uploaded by this page, with a special ImageSelectorField. The editor
can also choose any picture from any other SiteTree-Page. In most
cases we are hiding the normal “Files & Images”-Section. The editor
does not have to care, where his pictures are stored. So the Page is
some kind of tag for a certain folder. The same we are doing for a
NewsDataObject. If the editor needs some images, they’ll be uploaded
in the NewsDataObject and stored in some kind of folder structure like
news/year/month/slugified-title. With this system we have simple
tagging system and keep a readable structure, which is browsable via
FTP

The only thing missing for would be that a file can only have one
folder/tag. With some kind symlink functionality this could also be
solved.

So a hierarchical folder structure with symlinks would solve any
mentioned concerns. You could map any scenario with SilverStripe: A
small page with just a few tags or a complex folder structure.

Extending an one level file-tag-management to a complex version is
much more difficult, than the other way round.

One last thing. I’m not sure if it’s a good idea to have the “Add
File” on the left side, because I would expect following workflow:
- Click “Files” (Left Sidebar)
- Select a folder (Middle Sidebar)
- Add Files to this folder (Some button on the right side, on top of
the list)
- Upload files
And not
- Click “Files” (Left Sidebar)
- Click “Add Files”
- Select files to upload
- Select a folder/set for each file
- ...

Perhaps combination of both would pretty cool. If there would be an
“Add File”-Button in the File-List-View, which sets the default upload
folder.

Regards,

Malte

[Peter Bacon Darwin]

I made this plug-in a while back that allows you to associate folders with pages so that the admin user can just attach files to a page without worrying about where it is stored but at the same time a nice folder structure is created that mirrors the page hierarchy.  An example use is the photo album, which stores photos in these folders.

 

https://github.com/petebacondarwin/SilverStripe-Associated-Folder-Module

and

https://github.com/petebacondarwin/SilverStripe-Photo-Album-Module

 

Perhaps this provides a good compromise for what is being discussed here?

 

Pete

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