Hippie christmas : $414 fine

[Joe Kerman]

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/crime_and_courts/taking-scrap-metal-from-curb-can-get-you-fine/article_623c81e4-e546-11e1-a26d-001a4bcf887a.html

 I thought the city, at one point, actually /promoted/ the idea of taking peoples crap from the curb before it goes into the garbage? I cant find the article, but i swear they said that excess garbage cost them "tens of thousands in landfill and tipping fees"

[philip crawford]

If they did, it was a long time ago.  Since I moved back to Madison in 2006, I've heard one thing from the city on this subject, which is that they consider it theft.

I'll be junk surfing the next few days regardless.

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Joe Kerman <jke...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/crime_and_courts/taking-scrap-metal-from-curb-can-get-you-fine/article_623c81e4-e546-11e1-a26d-001a4bcf887a.html

 I thought the city, at one point, actually /promoted/ the idea of taking peoples crap from the curb before it goes into the garbage? I cant find the article, but i swear they said that excess garbage cost them "tens of thousands in landfill and tipping fees"

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[Mark Kostreva]

The message is that scrap metal is NOT garbage and does not go to a landfill, but to a metal recycler. For money. 

Mark

On Aug 13, 2012, at 9:57, Joe Kerman <jke...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/crime_and_courts/taking-scrap-metal-from-curb-can-get-you-fine/article_623c81e4-e546-11e1-a26d-001a4bcf887a.html

 I thought the city, at one point, actually /promoted/ the idea of taking peoples crap from the curb before it goes into the garbage? I cant find the article, but i swear they said that excess garbage cost them "tens of thousands in landfill and tipping fees"

[Anton Kapela]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Mark Kostreva <kost...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The message is that scrap metal is NOT garbage and does not go to a
> landfill, but to a metal recycler. For money.

what about metal left on an easement that an owner pays for and maintains?

/me digs into this statute, and decides it was written by idiots

-tk

[Chris Meyer]

Yeah, the key is that people intending to give others their junk need to leave it in the area between the sidewalk and their residence, rather than the sidewalk and the curb.  They publish this article every year :-)

Chris

[Joe Kerman]

I'm especially annoyed that ALL items on the curb are debris,  but we only enforce the law when it's profitable 

[Charles Allhands]

"Once an item is placed at the curb, it is considered city property and cannot be taken from the terrace (the area between the curb and sidewalk) without permission of the city," 

-I'll keep this in mind when I have junk the city won't take. Once it's on the curb it's their property, I can't move it.

      -Charles

Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/taking-scrap-metal-from-curb-can-get-you-fine/article_623c81e4-e546-11e1-a26d-001a4bcf887a.html#ixzz23Re6xQyu 

[Joe Kerman]

This is the first year they have specifically mentioned fines.

[jesse]

hippie Christmas fines are to detour scrappers only. Mpd and UW police wont give a care if your pulling out a piece of metal but if your driving around with your car dragging from all the scrap you pilfered there going to get you.

[Alexander Bilgri]

So far I've snagged a 52" Fresnel lens, some CLFs, and a keg tapper. Any other treasures out there?

Also, who wants to smelt pennies in the parking lot?

[Dougal]

Good golly I love this group.

[Alex McLees]

A 52" Fresnel Lens? Like from a light house?!

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Alexander Bilgri <abi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mark Kostreva]

Projection TV perhaps?

Kind of a light house for Jay Leno, in a way.

Mark

[jesse]

I think Adam is up for smelting pennies

[Anton Kapela]

How large a lens needed to vaporize?

-Tk

[Alexander Bilgri]

http://hackaday.com/2011/06/25/selective-solar-sintering-with-sand/

25% there!

>>>> jke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/crime_and_courts/taking-scrap-metal-from-curb-can-get-you-fine/article_623c81e4-e546-11e1-a26d-001a4bcf887a.html>

[Joe Kerman]

Ive smelted pennies before!*  Separate them into piles of pre 1982 (90/10 copper/zinc) and post-1982 (10/90 copper/zinc), and smelt each pile separately.  You will need to use the propane torch, since the kiln doesnt get hot enough to melt copper (as far as I know).  I also completely destroyed my clay crucible when doing the copper, but that was probably my fault.  I poured the smelts into a cast-iron cornbread pan (also at sector, under the table by the kiln).




*smelting pennies is against the law, and my story was either from the day before that law passed, or completely fictional.

[William LaFrance]

Sorry to go off-topic (or, back on topic?). It seems like the way they're enforcing this is a violation of the 14th amendment's equal protection clause. i.e., if Hippies can't take our trash, but everyone else can, there's no equal protection of law. (I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.)

The thing that sucks is (not having read the statute, going off of what you've said) if I drop my computer on the ground there, I can't take it back because it's become the city's scrap aluminum. How can there be a law that allows the city to say "Once you put your stuff somewhere on your lawn, it's my stuff, not your stuff?" Can I tell the city "your stuff is my stuff kthxbai" also?

[Brendan O'Connor]

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on TV. (If you take my writings to be
legal advice... just really, really don't. They may spontaneously
combust.) :-)

It's not a 14th Amendment violation-- or rather, it is, but you can't
prove it. In order to show that it was, you would need to prove,
conclusively (it's a civil matter, so the standard is a "preponderance
of evidence"), that the city has a policy to enforce the law only
against, say, hippies. I can pretty much guarantee that you won't find
a written document somewhere, signed by the chief of police, that says
"screw the hippies, they're smelly, fine them." So that's a no-go.

Now, if it's just that professional scrappers can't take the stuff--
the city often has the ability to say that you can't go take stuff for
commercial purposes, as then you'd need a license, have to have safety
training, etc. (This kind of regulation isn't an equal protection
violation-- the city and state have a right to regulate commercial
activity.)

The thing where trash is owned by the city is actually kind of
interesting-- when you throw away your stuff, it counts as abandoned,
and thus you no longer have a property interest in it-- or, related, a
privacy interest; that means that cops don't need a warrant to search
your trash when it's out on the curb. They *do* need a warrant to
sneak into your garage and search your garbage *before* you put it on
the curb.

The relevant part of the municipal code is 10.18(5), which states:

"Persons Who May Collect Rubbish and Refuse. No person, unless she/he
has a contract with the City of Madison permitting her/him to collect
and remove rubbish and refuse, or unless she/he be a City employee
acting under the direction of the Common Council and the Street
Superintendent shall collect or remove any rubbish or refuse which has
been deposited or placed by any person on the terrace adjoining
her/his premises for collection by the City as herein provided, except
that nonprofit organizations may collect household furnishings that
have been deposited or placed on the terrace for disposal during
daylight hours between May 15 to May 31 and August 15 to August 31.
“Person” as used in this section includes individuals, partnerships,
associations and bodies politic or corporate."

So you can see that again, they've written the law to fall within the
"regulation of commercial activity" thing, which is within their
rights.

Sorry, no lawsuit for you. :-)

---BFO

[Joe Kerman]

Im not a lawyer either, but i /do/ play one on the internet.  Whenever they decide to mass selectively enforce a law like this, it seems to increase the odds of a judge throwing out /all/ of the fines issued because of the selective enforcement. (selective being only enforcing theft of metal, and not other items). Theres a blog by former alderwoman brenda konkel in town that tracks issues like this, since it often comes up with the poor/homeless http://www.forwardlookout.com/2012/08/hippie-christman-grinch/15811

As for the second part, the "terrace" (the area between the sidewalk and the curb, and possibly extending as far as 6-10 feet from the curb) is /not/ your lawn. its city property.  you are required to shovel/clear the city-owned sidewalk, and even are required to pay to replace it in some cases, but you do not own it. And you in fact CAN call the city to come haul away any crap that anyone leaves there.   This is also why its illegal to put any type of temporary sign in that area. (which is also highly selectively enforced, and has been a big stink downtown lately)  This is why professional realtors always have the sign in the yard, and shady roofing companies always put their signs on the terrace.

[Joe Kerman]

Thanks brendan! 

Im particularly interested in the part where they say, in public, they are only enforcing this law if you take metal goods. I know thats done in practice a lot, but I thought they had to be less obvious about saying it so directly

[Brendan O'Connor]

Again, though, that may be held to fall within their regulation of
commercial activity-- since, again, they're allowed to regulate
scrappers.

On the other hand, judges can, in large part, do what they want; if
you could find a lawyer, he or she might be able to convince a judge
to kill all the fines. I'm just going to say it's not at all likely.
Go back to the earlier post: don't take shit in front of cops, don't
load your truck down with crap (except Chris can-- because he's
working on behalf of Sector67, a registered nonprofit, he can do what
he likes, as the ordinance says), and you'll be fine.

---BFO

[Tanya Cunningham]

What about this wording, though:

"No person ... shall collect or remove any rubbish or refuse which has been deposited ... on the terrace adjoining [the] premises for collection by the City"

So, what if it's put on the terrace for other purposes, ie. to give it away to anyone who wants it?

That said, I have to agree that the best application is: don't haul shit away in front of the cops!

TC

[Brendan O'Connor]

Ah. That would count as "throwing crap on the street." The most likely
ordinance there:

10.23(1): "Any person unnecessarily obstructing or causing to be
obstructed any street, alley, crosswalk, terrace or sidewalk so as to
interfere with public traffic or access shall be subject to a fine of
not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor more than two hundred ($200)."

There's a few different options (one about gutters, another about
glass), but that's the broadest one that I see.

If you just put it in your yard, not on the terrace, then this is the law:

27.05(2)(c): "The interior of all vacant buildings and structures and
all exterior property areas shall be properly maintained in a clean
and sanitary condition free from debris, rubbish or garbage, physical
hazards, rodent harborage and infestation, and animal feces. All
animal feces shall be removed within twenty-four (24) hours. Compost
piles shall be maintained in accordance with Section 7.361."

By the way, I don't see any support for Joe's idea that the "terrace"
owned by the city extends past the sidewalk, on to your yard-- not
that it's necessarily wrong, I just don't see where that is (in any of
the places I'm looking). But putting stuff on the grass between
sidewalk and curb is 10.23(1), blocking the sidewalk itself is also
bad (there's another law there), and putting it in your yard itself
is, similarly, bad.

Just things to keep in mind.

---BFO

[jesse]

so you could say your cleaning up the sidewalks because the criminal students keep blocking it and the elderly and disable cant get threw. bada bing!!! problem solved, Hippie Christmas is saved.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brendan O'Connor <uss...@ussjoin.com>
To: sector67 <sect...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 1:14 pm
Subject: Re: [S67 Public] Hippie christmas : $414 fine