Computing Fossils

[Gregg Chandler]

http://www.infoworld.com/t/computer-hardware/computing-fossils-old-tech-hold
ing-dear-life-192984?source=IFWNLE_nlt_wrapup_2012-05-28

[dwight elvey]

> From: Gre...@esx.com
> To: se...@googlegroups.com
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/t/computer-hardware/computing-fossils-old-tech-hold
> ing-dear-life-192984?source=IFWNLE_nlt_wrapup_2012-05-28
>
>

I'm one of the 40%. This machine is running XP.
I see not reason to consider anything else.
I sometimes use the DOS window as well.
My wife has System7 on her newer machine.
It is limited by the web speed, just like this one.
Why change.
Dwight
 

[Kenneth L. Owen]

I ran Windows XP and did not want to change.  I, too, ran DOS applications to support my Heaths.  But the motherboard failed and the machine could not be cost effectively repaired.  The new machine is 64 bit and running Windows 7.

Its a nice machine, and fast, but I would go back to my old system in a heartbeat!  Microsoft and their supporting partners do not supply drivers for legacy equipment.  That means that my scanner, modem (used for Fax) and my video input card for movies will not work on the new box.  All of the applications that I was already used to such as Microsoft Office have been reworked and all of the controls moved so I have a hard time finding them.  And it certainly won't run DOS apps.

The only way I can continue to function is by dual-booting Linux.  I run VirtualBox and boot Windows XP as a virtual machine. 

It is my opinion that Microsoft is deliberately trying to frustrate the Windows XP users.  If the machine is running less that a gigabyte of memory, the later system upgrades use so much memory that the machine becomes doggy due to using the hard disk as virtual memory.

-- ken

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[Dave McGuire]

On 05/30/2012 12:23 AM, Kenneth L. Owen wrote:
> I ran Windows XP and did not want to change. I, too, ran DOS
> applications to support my Heaths. But the motherboard failed and the
> machine could not be cost effectively repaired. The new machine is 64
> bit and running Windows 7.
>
> Its a nice machine, and fast, but I would go back to my old system in a
> heartbeat! Microsoft and their supporting partners do not supply
> drivers for legacy equipment. That means that my scanner, modem (used
> for Fax) and my video input card for movies will not work on the new
> box. All of the applications that I was already used to such as
> Microsoft Office have been reworked and all of the controls moved so I
> have a hard time finding them. And it certainly won't run DOS apps.
>
> The only way I can continue to function is by dual-booting Linux. I run
> VirtualBox and boot Windows XP as a virtual machine.
>
> It is my opinion that Microsoft is deliberately trying to frustrate the
> Windows XP users. If the machine is running less that a gigabyte of
> memory, the later system upgrades use so much memory that the machine
> becomes doggy due to using the hard disk as virtual memory.

Whew. You're a more patient man than I!

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

[Pat Swayne]

Microsoft support for Windows XP SP3 will end on April 8, 2014
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/endofsupport.aspx
Support for earlier service packs has already ended

[Dan Emrick]

I, too, am a Linux fan, but I've kept an XP hardware box around for years just to easily convert things like .DOCX files that Windows users occasionally provide.  I also have the VM alternative and will probably keep XP around in some form for quite a while.  The need lessens, however, with every improvement from OpenOffice.org.  My virtual Debian machine is just a useful and easier to manage than the hardware XP machine and seems to handle most Microsoft-type stuff quite well.  If I keep the XP hardware running much longer it will probably be just so that someday someone will ask, "Why?"  They don't ask that about the Heathkits, probably because few people know what they are or what they represent.

My Commodore VIC-20 recently went to a new home, so other than XP, my three H89s are what keep me firmly anchored to the past.

To me the really impressive users in our group would be people like Dave who has a running PDP-11 at home!!

Dan

[dwight elvey]

Hi
 I'm not sure I care much about support from
MS. I may have to change my mail viewer though.
Dwight

 

---

From: m...@patswayne.com

[Dan Emrick]

It's OK with me for XP support to end.  Then I'll stop getting that aggravating "Updates are ready" message and the annoying need to reboot.  'Course, I don't get that on the VM version - no updates either, but that's OK, too.

Dan

On Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:47:33 AM UTC-4, dke...@hotmail.com wrote:

Hi
 I'm not sure I care much about support from
MS. I may have to change my mail viewer though.
Dwight

 

---

From: m...@patswayne.com
Microsoft support for Windows XP SP3 will end on April 8, 2014
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/endofsupport.aspx
Support for earlier service packs has already ended

On 5/29/2012 11:13 PM, dwight elvey wrote:

I'm one of the 40%. This machine is running XP.
I see not reason to consider anything else.
I sometimes use the DOS window as well.
My wife has System7 on her newer machine.
It is limited by the web speed, just like this one.
Why change.
Dwight

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[Dave McGuire]

On 05/30/2012 08:30 AM, Dan Emrick wrote:
> I, too, am a Linux fan, but I've kept an XP hardware box around for
> years just to easily convert things like .DOCX files that Windows users
> occasionally provide. I also have the VM alternative and will probably
> keep XP around in some form for quite a while. The need lessens,
> however, with every improvement from OpenOffice.org. My virtual Debian
> machine is just a useful and easier to manage than the hardware XP
> machine and seems to handle most Microsoft-type stuff quite well. If I
> keep the XP hardware running much longer it will probably be just so
> that someday someone will ask, "Why?" They don't ask that about the
> Heathkits, probably because few people know what they are or what they
> represent.
>
> My Commodore VIC-20 recently went to a new home, so other than XP, my
> three H89s are what keep me firmly anchored to the past.
>
> To me the really impressive users in our group would be people like Dave
> who has a running PDP-11 at home!!

Oh, you don't know the half of it. 30+ PDP-11s, four PDP-8s, two
PDP-10s, 20+ VAXen, two analog machines, four Heaths, four Crays, three
mainframes...you really need to visit my place!

(not trying to brag, but sometimes the stuff here amazes even me!)

[Dan Emrick]

Yah - knew there was more, but I didn't know there was that much more!   As I recall a bunch of them are operational, too, right?  No wonder you had to re-wire the building power!!

Dan

[Dave McGuire]

On 05/30/2012 04:26 PM, Dan Emrick wrote:
> Yah - knew there was more, but I didn't know there was that much more!
> As I recall a bunch of them are operational, too, right? No wonder you
> had to re-wire the building power!!

Ohh yes. ;) The new wiring only needed to be done for the stuff that
runs 24/7. That stuff has nothing to do with the antique collection;
it's how I make a living.

But yes, most of my vintage machines are functional.

[Bruce H McIntosh]

Sounds like you've got one or two of EVERYthing. How on earth do you
manage to score four Crays and three mainframes? What flavors?

> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA

Love the callsign Alpha Kilo Four Heath Zenith :-)
Your sig says you're in PA, but QRZ thinks you're down in Port
Charlotte. Snowbird?

73 de WA4UF (Go Gators!)

[Dave McGuire]

On 05/31/2012 10:58 AM, Bruce H McIntosh wrote:
> Sounds like you've got one or two of EVERYthing. How on earth do you
> manage to score four Crays and three mainframes? What flavors?

I'm motivated and fearless. :) It helps that I have a significant
other who understands that you can't have a zebra without the stripes.
She helps me find (and move!) my big iron.

The Crays:
YMP/EL98 (#1)
YMP/EL98 (#2)
YMP/EL94
J90 (#1)
J90 (#2)
SV1

Oh my, I guess that's six. =) [sheepish look]

The mainframes...One's a member of the antique collection, an S/370
model 9375, one of the only air-cooled S/370s. The other two are more
modern, an MP3000 (S/390 G5 in a small box), and a z890 (beefy 64-bit
z/Series machine). I also have a P/390 and a P/390E, but I suppose they
don't really count by most measures.

>> --
>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>> New Kensington, PA
>
> Love the callsign Alpha Kilo Four Heath Zenith :-)

Yes. :)

> Your sig says you're in PA, but QRZ thinks you're down in Port
> Charlotte. Snowbird?

Nope, not old enough to do that sort of thing. I got sick of having
no work, no space, and crappy power prices (I pull a LOT of power) so I
made my escape and moved north. I just changed my address with the FCC
today; thanks for reminding me!

But oh my, we've only begun to scratch the surface of the computer
equipment here. ;) I finally realized the ridiculous folly of "houses",
and bought a ~14,000 square foot commercial building with three-phase
power. No more dinky little rooms, tiny little hallways, or wimpy
little power feeds. I'm building a museum in the lower two floors. And
now I have more work than I know what to do with. FL is a very low-tech
place when you come right down to it. I starved down there for a
decade. No more!

> 73 de WA4UF (Go Gators!)

73s right back!

A 4-call; you're in FL? Whereabouts? I lived in St. Pete, then Cape
Coral, then Port Charlotte. I have one more truck trip to make to get
the last of the racks out of the old place.

-Dave

[Chris Elmquist]

On Friday (06/01/2012 at 01:00AM -0400), Dave McGuire wrote:
>
> The Crays:
> YMP/EL98 (#1)
> YMP/EL98 (#2)
> YMP/EL94
> J90 (#1)
> J90 (#2)
> SV1

<peep>
That stuff's just laying out in the woods with beer bottles strewn all
around, around here... ;-)
</peep>

--
Chris Elmquist

[Lee Hart]

My old friend George Ewing put it this way. About 20 years ago he said:

"Where have all the techies gone? Computers have become the new TV.
People just sit in front of it, and look for entertainment. They didn't
build the computer, they didn't write the program, they didn't produce
any of the content. They're spectators, watching what other people do."

I realized he was right! Up until that time, I was a computer "nut". All
the time and money I put into computers came at the expense of
everything else in my life. Ham radio, model rockets, photography,
performing music, electric cars, and just plain building "stuff" had all
fallen by the wayside. I thought I had to buy every new computer gadget,
try every new program, etc.

I resolved to quit! I quit buying new computers, unless I actually
needed one. I quit upgrading programs, unless I had to. The computer is
best used as a tool to accomplish something else; not as an end in itself.

I'm typing this on a 15-year-old Dell, running Win2k. I got it used at
Computer Renaissance for $99, when my even older computer running Win98
finally quit. I only upgraded because I had to; not because I wanted to.

I spend far less money buying new computers, and far less time
relearning software. I found that all that time and money only serves to
make some big company richer, and only gets me right back where I was
before I upgraded.

I use the time instead to do *other* things that I truly enjoy, and will
make a lasting difference!

When I mess with computers, it's with old ones that I *can* build, and
*can* program, and that I *know* will still be working for me in another
20 years!
--
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls
and looks like work. -- Thomas A. Edison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

[Adrian Stoness]

nice!

i aint upgrading till either my laptop dies or the new simcity comes out.......

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[Dave McGuire]

Road trip!

[Dave McGuire]

On 06/01/2012 01:47 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> My old friend George Ewing put it this way. About 20 years ago he said:
>
> "Where have all the techies gone? Computers have become the new TV.
> People just sit in front of it, and look for entertainment. They didn't
> build the computer, they didn't write the program, they didn't produce
> any of the content. They're spectators, watching what other people do."

I hope your friend has noticed the gigantic explosion in the
electronics hobby in recent years. I'm sure he'll feel much better. I
sure do!

> I realized he was right! Up until that time, I was a computer "nut". All
> the time and money I put into computers came at the expense of
> everything else in my life. Ham radio, model rockets, photography,
> performing music, electric cars, and just plain building "stuff" had all
> fallen by the wayside. I thought I had to buy every new computer gadget,
> try every new program, etc.
>
> I resolved to quit! I quit buying new computers, unless I actually
> needed one. I quit upgrading programs, unless I had to. The computer is
> best used as a tool to accomplish something else; not as an end in itself.

Congratulations! You are no longer an obedient American consumer. :-)

[Lee Hart]

Dave McGuire wrote:
> I hope your friend has noticed the gigantic explosion in the
> electronics hobby in recent years. I'm sure he'll feel much better. I
> sure do!

Sadly, George passed away two years ago.

But I have indeed noticed that hobby electronics is making a comeback. A
year or two ago I was pretty depressed at how little of it I saw. But
there does seem to be a renaissance brewing!

> Congratulations! You are no longer an obedient American consumer. :-)

My friend called them "sheeple". :-)

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"

[Dave McGuire]

On 06/03/2012 04:14 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> Dave McGuire wrote:
>> I hope your friend has noticed the gigantic explosion in the
>> electronics hobby in recent years. I'm sure he'll feel much better. I
>> sure do!
>
> Sadly, George passed away two years ago.

I'm sorry to hear it. :-( I wish he could've seen what's happening
today. I didn't know him, but based on what you said, I think he'd be
heartened to see it.

> But I have indeed noticed that hobby electronics is making a comeback. A
> year or two ago I was pretty depressed at how little of it I saw. But
> there does seem to be a renaissance brewing!

Yes! You and I discussed this about...well I think about a year ago.
It's getting better all the time. I have no idea why that's so, but
I'm not complaining!

>> Congratulations! You are no longer an obedient American consumer. :-)
>
> My friend called them "sheeple". :-)

Yes. Our society is full of them these days. :-(

[Lee Hart]

>> Sadly, George passed away two years ago.

Dave McGuire wrote:
> I'm sorry to hear it. :-( I wish he could've seen what's happening
> today. I didn't know him, but based on what you said, I think he'd be
> heartened to see it.

Indeed he would! George was a real character! Everyone should have at
least one in their life.

He was always building something. Ham radio operator; built or modified
his equipment. Computer builder (Heathkits, of course). Built his own
house (a geodesic dome), made his own heat and electricity. His cars
were amazing agglomerations of parts from many sources. Taught high
school (to inspire young minds if he had to kill them to do it). Wrote
science fiction and technical articles for the ham magazines.

George was a huge guy; 6'8" and 300 lbs. His idea of a portable computer
was an H89 in a government surplus fiberglass shipping container. He'd
open the case, take out the computer, flip the 5-sided part of the case
and use it for a chair, unfold legs from the lid and use it as a table,
and sit the H89 on it. A UPS would run it for a few hours; about the
same as a modern laptop.

>> I have indeed noticed that hobby electronics is making a comeback.

> Yes! You and I discussed this about... well I think about a year ago.

> It's getting better all the time. I have no idea why that's so, but
> I'm not complaining!

I agree. MAKE magazine seems to be thriving. Hackerspaces are popping
up. Websites like Hackaday are encouraging people to invent. Ebay is
flooded with cheap electronic parts. Company failures are ironically
good for hobbyists, because they produce affordable equipment (a friend
now has a wave soldering machine in his garage). :-)

For 16 years I've been working with BEST (Bridging Engineering Science
and Teaching, www.bestoutreach.com). We go into 4th-6th grade classrooms
and mentor the kids to build electric go-karts. These aren't toys; they
actually get in them and race them! The kids absolutely LOVE it!

In the beginning, the adults said "Why would anyone want to do that? You
can buy a better go-kart than you can build." Today, they are becoming
more supportive. They *see* the merit to teaching kids to actually build
and invent things. (Unfortunately, the schools still don't -- they are
hung up curriculums designed solely to meet testing requirements, and
see no point to things like BEST that aren't on the tests).

--
Ingenuity gets you through times of no money better than money
will get you through times of no ingenuity. -- Terry Pratchett

[Bruce H McIntosh]

On Jun 1, 1:00 am, Dave McGuire <mcgu...@neurotica.com> wrote:

>   I'm motivated and fearless. :)  It helps that I have a significant
> other who understands that you can't have a zebra without the stripes.
> She helps me find (and move!) my big iron.
>

I bow to your superior spouse foo. :-) My wife sorta tolerates my old-
hardware addictions. Good thing too - I've got plenty of older radios,
stereo equipment and computers, some of the first two categories older
than I am.

>   The Crays:
>    YMP/EL98 (#1)
>    YMP/EL98 (#2)
>    YMP/EL94
>    J90 (#1)
>    J90 (#2)
>    SV1

Sounds like you're as well equipped as the NASA site I worked at 25
years ago. They're currently up to lots of massive clusters of Crays
and SGIs and IBMs.

>   A 4-call; you're in FL?  Whereabouts?  I lived in St. Pete, then Cape
> Coral, then Port Charlotte.  I have one more truck trip to make to get
> the last of the racks out of the old place.

When you make that trip you'll likely come down I-75? You'll go right
by me. I'm in Gainesville (Go Gators!), which goes a long way toward
explaining the "UF" in my callsign. :-) I've been down here 25 years
now. Met the wife over BITNET, moved here from the DC 'burbs, married
her, *finally* finished college, and never left.

[Bruce H McIntosh]

On Jun 4, 12:09 pm, Lee Hart <leeah...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Sadly, George passed away two years ago.
> Dave McGuire wrote:
> >    I'm sorry to hear it. :-(  I wish he could've seen what's happening
> > today.  I didn't know him, but based on what you said, I think he'd be
> > heartened to see it.
>
> Indeed he would! George was a real character! Everyone should have at
> least one in their life.

Sounds like the kind of guy we'd all like to be! :-)

> George was a huge guy; 6'8" and 300 lbs. His idea of a portable computer
> was an H89 in a government surplus fiberglass shipping container. He'd
> open the case, take out the computer, flip the 5-sided part of the case
> and use it for a chair, unfold legs from the lid and use it as a table,
> and sit the H89 on it. A UPS would run it for a few hours; about the
> same as a modern laptop.

When I was working at NASA/Goddard, I used to lug my H-89 back and
forth all the time. I'd set it up on a cart next to the mainframe
consoles, steal a modem cable from our dialin pool, and dial out to
various University and BBS type systems.

> >> I have indeed noticed that hobby electronics is making a comeback.
> >   Yes! You and I discussed this about... well I think about a year ago.
> > It's getting better all the time.  I have no idea why that's so, but
> > I'm not complaining!
>
> I agree. MAKE magazine seems to be thriving. Hackerspaces are popping
> up. Websites like Hackaday are encouraging people to invent. Ebay is
> flooded with cheap electronic parts. Company failures are ironically
> good for hobbyists, because they produce affordable equipment (a friend
> now has a wave soldering machine in his garage). :-)

We've got a hackerspace here in Gainesville that several of my friends
and coworkers are heavily involved in. They're about halfway to
talking me into investing/participating in their pending CNC mill
project. It'd be just the thing for small production runs of electric
guitar bodies and necks.

> (Unfortunately, the schools still don't -- they are
> hung up curriculums designed solely to meet testing requirements, and
> see no point to things like BEST that aren't on the tests).

That's a BIG downer about the public education system here in
Florida. Everything the schools do is tailored around the FCAT
(Florida Comprehensive Achievement Test). Even the private schools
have to use *some* kind of standardized test likethe Iowas or CATs or
somesuch to satisfy the state Ed. bureaucrats. 's kind of sad. There
are bright spots, though, like the schools here in town that field
student robotics teams that compete nationally. Some sharp kids
coming out of those organizations!