[SIR] C1200 Prep - Suggestions for Avoiding Foot Pain?

[David Litt]

Dear All:

I'm looking forward to the C1200!  My bike is prepped, my body ... should at least be reasonably well rested.  

But I thought I would solicit advice about one issue I came up against on PBP last year and again on a series of Brevets (600/200/200/300km) in Tohoku here in Japan at the beginning of May -- numbing in the soles/balls of my feet, and that wonderful searing pain as the numbness fades (that reminds me of the end of a trip to the skate rink as a child, with the skates tied too tight). 

When I have had any pain in feet before cycling, I have solved it just by making sure that my shoes are the right size, have wide enough toe area, and most important, that my cleats are adjusted properly -- under the balls of the feet. And I never have had foot pain issues with hiking, running or walking in shoes that fit properly.  But on PBP, and the Tohoku rides, I've still gotten foot numbness and pain even with shoes that seem the right size and cleats that seem in the place.  I really hate to change ANYTHING (saddle, bib shorts, gloves, bars) before a really long ride, but will depart from that when something is obviously not working.  I have two ideas and wanted any thoughts:

1.  Cycling sandals.  I just got a pair of Shimano cycling sandals that take SPD cleats.  One rider at PBP swore by sandals for longer rides -- he said he could use them in all weather -- wear thicker socks, waterproof or windblocking liners, etc. as the weather merits.  I rode them about 50km yesterday and must admit that my feet felt really good ... well ventilated on a beautiful sunny afternoon.  And if they get wet ... at least they dry OFF faster than shoes dry OUT.  But 50 kms is not 1200 kms ...

2.  Arch supports.  I also got some Giro brand inserts that come with 3 different heights of interchangeable arch supports.  From what I have read, a likely source of the pain I am experiencing is not having high enough arch support. I was able to try them on a 140km ride last weekend, and they seemed okay ... but that is not a real test since I would not normally notice feet pain on that length of ride as long as my cleats are adjusted right.

For C1200, I'll either take my usual road cycling shoes, with the Giro arch supports and also the "normal" inserts ... or I could take the sandals plus a pair of MTB shoes in reserve.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?

David Litt

Tokyo

[Chris Heg]

This may be too late to help but I suffered a lot of foot pain on
Cascade in 2010 and lost feeling in 3 toes for about 4 months after
the ride. After that I did several things and have not had a
recurrence:

I got professionally made orthodic inserts that have a kind of lump
next to the ball of the foot. That separates the toe bones in a way
that prevens the nerves from being pinched between the bones. It took
a month to get them after I had casts made of my feet.

I switched from mountain SPD pedals to the A520 touring pedals. The
platform helps to spread the load away from the ball of the foot.

I stopped wearing thin socks for riding and generally wear hiking
socks year round.

I think the orthodics really solved the problem completely but I am
not sure enough to try a ride over 300k without doing all three.

[Bill Gobie]

David,

Chris has some good answers. I have a few thoughts of my own.

I have custom footbeds made by my ski boot fitter, who is also a cyclist. They improve my shoes' fit a good deal. The lumps Chris mentions are metatarsal pads. They fit beside the ball of your foot, in line with the second and third toes. They help keep your metatarsals from collapsing. They take a bit of getting used to as your feet adjust to them. They ultimately help quite a bit if you have metatarsal problems, which it sounds like you might.

I ditched mountain pedals entirely. Even the stiffest mountain shoes flex (so that they are somewhat walkable compared to road shoes). When the soles flex the cleats push up into your feet. The bigger contact surface the A520 pedals offer help some riders, but as your shoes' soles wear the soles will flex more to contact the pedals. The oft-heard advice to move your cleats back as far as possible attempts to move the cleats away from your suffering metatarsals. Yours probably are suffering since you say your cleats are under the balls of your feet (metatarsals).

Since I have to be clipped in on a recumbent, I have gone back to Ultegra pedals and cleats with super stiff road shoes. The big pedal-cleat contact area, stiff soles, and orthotics has fixed my problems with foot pain on that bike. 

On my upright bikes I use stiff mountain shoes with toe cages and straps. No cleats. No foot pain.

My shoes are sized so I can wear thin compression socks and up to two pairs of medium weight wool socks, typically a pair of hiking socks and ski socks. This gives plenty of room to loosen the shoes in warm weather. You might think your shoes are the right size but if you do not have room for two pairs of socks then I would say they are too small. The "right size" in the shop is probably too small, particularly if the salesperson thinks shoes should fit tightly. If your feet are being squeezed that puts extra pressure on your metatarsals. Feet tend to swell in warm weather and on long rides.

I can't offer you much hope for the Shimano sandals. They are relatively flexible so they will not solve the problem of the cleats pushing up into your metatarsals. The relief you are getting from them is probably because they are wide and loose so your feet are not being squeezed. Whether that is enough to get you through a 1200 I do not know.

The arch supports are probably not what you really need. Be cautious with them; they will tilt your feet which could cause knee problems.

If you pedal toes-down, you should try to work into a flatter or heel-down style. Toes-down jams your feet into the front of your shoes; this will make any shoes too tight.

I think the short-term fix you should try is to take off your cleats and use flat pedals with cages and straps. Bend the cages as necessary if your shoes do not get on well with them, or don't even use cages. There are plenty of randos who use flat pedals with no retention system. Get some metatarsal pads for your footbeds, and keep your shoes loose over the balls of your feet. Bring your cleats and SPD pedals in your drop bag.

The cleatless shoes I use are Specialized Tahoe Sports. They are lace-up and tolerably toe-cage/strap friendly.

Bill

[David Litt]

Thanks to all!

I guess the idea of switching to sandals/mountain shoes with SPD pedals/cleats ... does not get any votes.

For now, I'll bring my most roomy road shoes, and pick up some metatarsal pads as well as bringing the higher arch insoles and my normal insoles.

My cleats are all the way back already (using Look Keo 3-hole cleats), but I'm not ready to give up on cleats and go to flat pedals with clips or power grips ... though I suppose I might eventually get there.

Look forward to seeing you next week.  

David

[Brad Hawkins]

Nope, count one for Sandals and socks or no socks. I've never had a problem with hot spots with those. Sometimes, I'll switch in and out of socks, which with sandals, can be done easily on the bike while pedaling (focuses the mind). Shoes always chafe somewhere for me except for the KEENS which are too flexy for brevets, and I prefer the feel of the air between my toes for any temperatures above 50F.

Take that with this proviso: I also ride brevets largely without gloves and since doing so, I've never had numbness in the fingers. So this is something of philosophical viewpoint, I guess. Less is often more for me.

Brad

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[Charlie White]

My wife had pretty bad foot pain on the 400K this year and didn't think she would attempt the 600 because of it.  Fortunately she had a bout of randonesia and signed up for the 600 before she could remember the pain again.  Anyhow, many of her runner friends wear support socks on marathons and suggested she try them.  Yes, they do look a bit dorky, but she completed the 600 and had no foot pain at all.  I don't know if it will work for you, but it was the best $60 that she spent on "cycling" gear.

Charlie

[Kent Peterson]

Brad,

The next logical step is no pants. For night riding, reflective body
paint.

Kent "sandal wearing, non-clipped, sometimes singlespeed, padless short
guy" Peterson
Issaquah WA USA

[Dominique B.]

I am soaking in all the great advise kindly shared on this thread. I
have lImited experience on the longer distances here, I have not done
a 1200K - but that won't stop me from offering another practical tip
to explore. On my only 600K, I packed shoes in my drop bag, and
swapped mid-ride from my heavy winter boots, that were most welcome
when night-conquering freezing mountain passes, to my regular wide
Sidi Dominator MTB shoes. I think the change of configuration
contributed to a total lack of foot pain, contrarily to the 400K a
couple weeks before that.

G'luck and bonne route to you and all Cascade 1200 riders.


 dominique B.
Seattle, WA - USA
Grenoble, France
___/)_____O__/)__/)_





2012/6/15 David Litt <david...@gmail.com>:

[Susan Otcenas]

>>I guess the idea of switching to sandals/mountain shoes with SPD pedals/cleats ... does not get any votes.

 

I was wearing women's Sidi Dominator 5s with SPD pedals and cleats.  I was having trouble with stabbing pains in the top of my big toes, particularly on longer/hotter rides.   My suspicion was that there was too much pressure on the balls of my feet (very minimal insoles in Sidi) inside very stiff shoes, and that my feet were swelling a little, making the shoes too tight.

 

I tried switching to sandals for a summer 600, knowing I could't handle 600K of toe pain.   The sandals totally solved the toe problem BUT the flexiness of the sandals killed my achilles tendons.  They were very sore for the last 100K.  And once I finished and had a shower (and a chance to stiffen up) I could barely walk.  My achilles had tightened up so much!  Took a week for the pain to go away.

 

I ultimately found relief by getting a pair of men's Sidi Dominators (my feet are very wide so I can wear men's shoes very comfortably) in a FULL size larger, and using a pair of "memory foam" type footbeds from the drug store.  The combination of more wiggle room for my toes, along with the more forgiving contact point under the balls of my feet made all the difference.  I still use the same SPD pedals and cleats.

 

I hope you find a solution.  If I were in your shoes (ha!) for the 1200, I'd probably have a spare pair of shoes in a drop bag so that I could switch to something different halfway through if I were suffering.

 

Tailwinds,

 

Susan

 

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[Chris Johnston]

 

I had some foot pain problems a couple of years ago.  My feet are somewhat flat so I don’t know if this applies to you, but I went to a podiatrist and had customer orthotics made.  Turns out that this is a pretty common problem when athletes reach their 40’s.  The orthotics cleared up my feet pain problems almost immediately.

 

Chris 

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[Brad Hawkins]

I'm already as white as can be. No need for the body paint.................

Brad

[Albert Meerscheidt]

I have to disagree about the sandals. I rode the first 400k of PBP 07 with sandals and spd cleats, (my feet were pretty soaked so I switched to the Sidis)  I rode a 600k recently with sandals. My ortho added the metatarsal pads to the Shimano sandals. They stayed in place until I wore that pair of sandals out.

 

I alternate between the sandals and sidi dominators with custom footbeds - not sure which are better, results vary.

Practice lifting up on the pedals, taking pressure off the foot, bags of frozen veggies, ice, or a cold stream help.

 

I would suggest not making any such large change at this date, but you might bring the sandals in your drop bag - just in case.

 

Albert

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 2:11 AM, David Litt <david...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Thanks,

Albert
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[Albert Meerscheidt]

If you use the sandals; think through how to keep your feet dry (at least warm) in a long rain and also if you take your socks off be sure to sunscreen your toes.

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Thanks,

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[David Litt]

Thanks to all again for your advice.  I'm glad that the sandals do get some enthusiastic votes!  I really want to try them out ... but probably should stick to incremental changes for a 1200 km ride.  I'll see if I can fit them (and the SPD pedals) in my luggage from Tokyo and drop bag.  I just dug out of the closet some old road shoes that are truly "roomy".  And I'll use the insoles with better arch support plus experiment with a few types of metatarsal inserts (at least they seem to be cheap and readily available).  That, plus proper cleat placement, a selection of socks (pressure; hiking socks with slightly more loft; thin cycling socks) and stretching the feet muscles at intervals, BEFORE there is any pain, and I should be fine.  See you next week.

David