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Re: Milwaukee sheriff: Don't count on us - defend yourself
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a425couple
Jan 28, 2013, 3:30:55 PM1/28/13
to
Alert - I've added some newsgroups.
Of course, as always, if you care to respond, you can
delete the newsgroups you do not wish to appear on.
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message...
> "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message...
>> "Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke Jr. has released a 30 second
>> public announcement calling on the citizens of Milwaukee to familiarize
>> themselves with a firearm and aid the police in defending life between
>> the time they dial 911 and the time the police arrive."
>> http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/26/Milwaukee-County-Sheriff-You-Can-Beg-A-Criminal-For-Mercy-Or-You-Can-Fight-Back
>
> Interesting. Thanks for spotting that & posting it.
>
> The County has a population of 952,000 and
> covers ~ 1,100 sq miles.
> The City has population of ~ 600,000 and ~ 100 sq mi.
> Rather predictable the two have different views.
>
> (Might be worth considering consequences of what
> Portland Or. did?)
Quite interesting to me, how the claws have come
out in this fight.
http://fox6now.com/2013/01/25/sheriff-clarke-calling-911-and-waiting-is-no-longer-your-best-option/
So, the elected sheriff of the county says,
"In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option.
You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
And a spoksperson for a special interest attacks with,
"If he does not feel he is capable of doing this, and he's not qualified
to take on this role of public safety (*), he should resign and he should do
it today," said Jeri Bonavia of the non-profit Wisconsin Anti-violence
Effort.
Bonavia says Clarke is asking citizens to become vigilantes.
"To issue a blanket statement that people should be out there,
arming up, and taking care of safety matters that really law enforcement
officials are trained to do, is just irresponsible," said Bonavia.
(* seeming to ignore, or just ignorant of
#1, LEA duty to protect is general, not each individual.
#2 Sir Robert Peel's Nine Points )
The office of Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett said in a statement:
"Apparently Sheriff David Clark (sp) is auditioning for the next
Dirty Harry movie."
And the county wide elected Sheriff responds:
Clarke fired back with his own statement. It read: "Several years ago
a tire iron-wielding suspect beat Mayor Tom Barrett to within inches
of his life. I would think that he would be a lot more sensitive to
people being able to defend themselves in such instances. A firearm
and a plan of defense would have come in handy for him that day."
(It would be interesting if a picture of victim Barrett
were to surface in an ethical proper manner.
I'm recalling one Polaroid I took of a beating victim,
his head looked like a bowling ball, all round & purple.)
Of course, as always, if you care to respond, you can
delete the newsgroups you do not wish to appear on.
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message...
> "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message...
>> "Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke Jr. has released a 30 second
>> public announcement calling on the citizens of Milwaukee to familiarize
>> themselves with a firearm and aid the police in defending life between
>> the time they dial 911 and the time the police arrive."
>> http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/26/Milwaukee-County-Sheriff-You-Can-Beg-A-Criminal-For-Mercy-Or-You-Can-Fight-Back
>
> Interesting. Thanks for spotting that & posting it.
>
> The County has a population of 952,000 and
> covers ~ 1,100 sq miles.
> The City has population of ~ 600,000 and ~ 100 sq mi.
> Rather predictable the two have different views.
>
> (Might be worth considering consequences of what
> Portland Or. did?)
Quite interesting to me, how the claws have come
out in this fight.
http://fox6now.com/2013/01/25/sheriff-clarke-calling-911-and-waiting-is-no-longer-your-best-option/
So, the elected sheriff of the county says,
"In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option.
You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
And a spoksperson for a special interest attacks with,
"If he does not feel he is capable of doing this, and he's not qualified
to take on this role of public safety (*), he should resign and he should do
it today," said Jeri Bonavia of the non-profit Wisconsin Anti-violence
Effort.
Bonavia says Clarke is asking citizens to become vigilantes.
"To issue a blanket statement that people should be out there,
arming up, and taking care of safety matters that really law enforcement
officials are trained to do, is just irresponsible," said Bonavia.
(* seeming to ignore, or just ignorant of
#1, LEA duty to protect is general, not each individual.
#2 Sir Robert Peel's Nine Points )
The office of Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett said in a statement:
"Apparently Sheriff David Clark (sp) is auditioning for the next
Dirty Harry movie."
And the county wide elected Sheriff responds:
Clarke fired back with his own statement. It read: "Several years ago
a tire iron-wielding suspect beat Mayor Tom Barrett to within inches
of his life. I would think that he would be a lot more sensitive to
people being able to defend themselves in such instances. A firearm
and a plan of defense would have come in handy for him that day."
(It would be interesting if a picture of victim Barrett
were to surface in an ethical proper manner.
I'm recalling one Polaroid I took of a beating victim,
his head looked like a bowling ball, all round & purple.)
hal lillywhite
Jan 29, 2013, 2:23:50 PM1/29/13
to
On 28 ene, 14:30, "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alert - I've added some newsgroups.
> Of course, as always, if you care to respond, you can
> delete the newsgroups you do not wish to appear on.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message...
> Alert - I've added some newsgroups.
> Of course, as always, if you care to respond, you can
> delete the newsgroups you do not wish to appear on.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message...
> >> "Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke Jr. has released a 30 second
> >> public announcement calling on the citizens of Milwaukee to familiarize
> >> themselves with a firearm and aid the police in defending life between
> >> the time they dial 911 and the time the police arrive."
> >>http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/26/Milwaukee-County-S...
> >> "Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke Jr. has released a 30 second
> >> public announcement calling on the citizens of Milwaukee to familiarize
> >> themselves with a firearm and aid the police in defending life between
> >> the time they dial 911 and the time the police arrive."
>
> > Interesting. Thanks for spotting that & posting it.
>
> > The County has a population of 952,000 and
> > covers ~ 1,100 sq miles.
> > The City has population of ~ 600,000 and ~ 100 sq mi.
> > Rather predictable the two have different views.
>
> > (Might be worth considering consequences of what
> > Portland Or. did?)
>
> Quite interesting to me, how the claws have come
> out in this fight.http://fox6now.com/2013/01/25/sheriff-clarke-calling-911-and-waiting-...
> > Interesting. Thanks for spotting that & posting it.
>
> > The County has a population of 952,000 and
> > covers ~ 1,100 sq miles.
> > The City has population of ~ 600,000 and ~ 100 sq mi.
> > Rather predictable the two have different views.
>
> > (Might be worth considering consequences of what
> > Portland Or. did?)
>
> Quite interesting to me, how the claws have come
>
> So, the elected sheriff of the county says,
> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option.
> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
> So, the elected sheriff of the county says,
> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option.
> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
preventative ability.
a425couple
Jan 30, 2013, 11:19:37 AM1/30/13
to
"hal lillywhite" <hlil...@juno.com> wrote in message...
-Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
-without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
-are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
-every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
-whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
-guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
-the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
-preventative ability.
I pretty much agree.
In another group a 'Major' added:
- Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
- A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
(And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
time that most sane people do not need them.)
-without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
-are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
-every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
-whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
-guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
-the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
-preventative ability.
I pretty much agree.
In another group a 'Major' added:
- Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
- A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
(And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
time that most sane people do not need them.)
Baxter
Jan 30, 2013, 11:59:26 AM1/30/13
to
-
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"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kebh7...@news4.newsguy.com...
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"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kebh7...@news4.newsguy.com...
>> So, the elected sheriff of the county says,
>> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
>> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option.
>> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
>> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
>> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
>> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
>
> -Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
> -without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
> -are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
> -every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
> -whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
> -guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
> -the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
> -preventative ability.
>
> I pretty much agree.
> In another group a 'Major' added:
>
> - Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
> - A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
>
> (And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
> time that most sane people do not need them.)
>
And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
>> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
>> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option.
>> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
>> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
>> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
>> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
>
> -Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
> -without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
> -are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
> -every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
> -whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
> -guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
> -the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
> -preventative ability.
>
> I pretty much agree.
> In another group a 'Major' added:
>
> - Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
> - A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
>
> (And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
> time that most sane people do not need them.)
>
a425couple
Jan 31, 2013, 10:17:24 AM1/31/13
to
"Baxter" <baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
their situation, that is just fine with me.
They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
(No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
But, I'd like to point out, the UK does have a quite high
violent crime rate.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html
From the UK's own Daily Mail:
The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents,
Canada 935, and the UK is at 2,034.
Now again, if they are happy with their situation,
that is just fine with me.
If they feel, "Go ahead criminal you may rob me, beat me,
and rape me, just do not kill me." I'm ok with it.
The wife of a425couple (USA citizens) does not accept
that, as being a fine viewpoint for herself or our daughters.
> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message...
>>> So, the elected sheriff of the county says,
>>> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
>>> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best
>>> option.
>>> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
>>> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
>>> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
>>> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
>>
>> -Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
>> -without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
>> -are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
>> -every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
>> -whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
>> -guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
>> -the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
>> -preventative ability.
>>
>> I pretty much agree.
>> In another group a 'Major' added:
>> - Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
>> - A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
>> (And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
>> time that most sane people do not need them.)
>>
> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
True enough. And if the British are happy enough with
>>> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
>>> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best
>>> option.
>>> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
>>> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
>>> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
>>> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
>>
>> -Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
>> -without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
>> -are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
>> -every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
>> -whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
>> -guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
>> -the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
>> -preventative ability.
>>
>> I pretty much agree.
>> In another group a 'Major' added:
>> - Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
>> - A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
>> (And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
>> time that most sane people do not need them.)
>>
> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
their situation, that is just fine with me.
They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
(No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
But, I'd like to point out, the UK does have a quite high
violent crime rate.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html
From the UK's own Daily Mail:
The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents,
Canada 935, and the UK is at 2,034.
Now again, if they are happy with their situation,
that is just fine with me.
If they feel, "Go ahead criminal you may rob me, beat me,
and rape me, just do not kill me." I'm ok with it.
The wife of a425couple (USA citizens) does not accept
that, as being a fine viewpoint for herself or our daughters.
Baxter
Jan 31, 2013, 10:34:35 AM1/31/13
to
-
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kee1u...@news3.newsguy.com...
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
>
> True enough. And if the British are happy enough with
> their situation, that is just fine with me.
> They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
> and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
> (No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
>
The British cops see themselves as part of the population - unlike American
>
> True enough. And if the British are happy enough with
> their situation, that is just fine with me.
> They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
> and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
> (No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
>
cops. British cops realize they can't defeat the mass of the population by
force, American cops think they're the "Law" and you'd better obey.
Harry K
Jan 31, 2013, 11:00:24 AM1/31/13
to
On Jan 30, 8:59 am, "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote:
> -
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
the USA.
Harry K
> -
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:kebh7...@news4.newsguy.com...
>
>
>
> >> So, the elected sheriff of the county says,
> >> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
> >> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option.
> >> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
> >> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
> >> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
> >> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
>
> > -Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
> > -without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
> > -are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
> > -every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
> > -whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
> > -guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
> > -the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
> > -preventative ability.
>
> > I pretty much agree.
> > In another group a 'Major' added:
>
> > - Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
> > - A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
>
> > (And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
> > time that most sane people do not need them.)
>
> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
> news:kebh7...@news4.newsguy.com...
>
>
>
> >> So, the elected sheriff of the county says,
> >> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
> >> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option.
> >> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
> >> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
> >> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your family.
> >> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
>
> > -Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
> > -without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
> > -are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
> > -every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
> > -whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
> > -guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
> > -the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
> > -preventative ability.
>
> > I pretty much agree.
> > In another group a 'Major' added:
>
> > - Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
> > - A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
>
> > (And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
> > time that most sane people do not need them.)
>
> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
the USA.
Harry K
Baxter
Jan 31, 2013, 12:26:38 PM1/31/13
to
-
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"Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message
news:977e6160-caae-45d4...@d2g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
>And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
>the USA.
Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message
news:977e6160-caae-45d4...@d2g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
>And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
>the USA.
a425couple
Jan 31, 2013, 12:31:50 PM1/31/13
to
"Baxter" <baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message...
1. Are you wishing to disagree with something I've posted, or
2. Just post, to aim us towards a different sub-topic, or
3. Throw us off with a critiscism, or "flame-bait" ? )
I do not know where you get your perception of
"American cops" from. (Are you a USA citizen?)
I spent a career in USA law enforcement and would tend
to believe I taught a lot more classes in "Community Oriented
Policing" and about Sir Robert Peel's 9 Points, than you have.
Many US LEAs follow this model.
Admitedly, some agencies & some individuals do have
more of an "army of occupation" type mentality. IMHO = sad.
But I note that you, totally snipped out my earlier points.
Oh well!
From the published evidence, it would appear that
Sheriff David Clarke tries to work WITH his public.
> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message...
>> "Baxter" <baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
>>> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
>>
>> True enough. And if the British are happy enough with
>> their situation, that is just fine with me.
>> They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
>> and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
>> (No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
>>
> The British cops see themselves as part of the population - unlike
> American cops. British cops realize they can't defeat the mass of the
> population by force, American cops think they're the "Law" and you'd
> better obey.
(I will admit, perhaps I am being slow, or dense this morning,
>>> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
>>
>> True enough. And if the British are happy enough with
>> their situation, that is just fine with me.
>> They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
>> and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
>> (No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
>>
> The British cops see themselves as part of the population - unlike
> American cops. British cops realize they can't defeat the mass of the
> population by force, American cops think they're the "Law" and you'd
> better obey.
1. Are you wishing to disagree with something I've posted, or
2. Just post, to aim us towards a different sub-topic, or
3. Throw us off with a critiscism, or "flame-bait" ? )
I do not know where you get your perception of
"American cops" from. (Are you a USA citizen?)
I spent a career in USA law enforcement and would tend
to believe I taught a lot more classes in "Community Oriented
Policing" and about Sir Robert Peel's 9 Points, than you have.
Many US LEAs follow this model.
Admitedly, some agencies & some individuals do have
more of an "army of occupation" type mentality. IMHO = sad.
But I note that you, totally snipped out my earlier points.
Oh well!
From the published evidence, it would appear that
Sheriff David Clarke tries to work WITH his public.
a425couple
Jan 31, 2013, 12:48:04 PM1/31/13
to
"Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message...
- "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote:
-> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
- themselves.
- Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
- the USA.
Weelll, Harry, (although I do not agree with it) there is a school
of thought out there, that believes there is a higher moral
virtue to a lady that has been raped and strangled to
death with her pantyhose, than there is, to the lady
explaining to the police how the rapist got full of lead
while her gun became empty of lead.
(I urge & advise, "Only enough to stop the threat!!")
I personally believe there is virtue in getting home
alive to one's husband & children.
- "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote:
-> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> So, the elected sheriff of the county says,
> >> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
> >> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best
> >> option.
> >> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
> >> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
> >> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your
> >> family.
> >> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
>
> > -Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
> > -without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
> > -are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
> > -every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
> > -whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
> > -guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
> > -the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
> > -preventative ability.
>
> > I pretty much agree.
> > In another group a 'Major' added:
> > - Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
> > - A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
> > (And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
> > time that most sane people do not need them.)
>
> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
- And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
> >> "In the PSA, Sheriff David Clarke says, "With officers laid off and
> >> furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best
> >> option.
> >> You could beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed,
> >> or you can fight back. But are you prepared?"
> >> He goes on to say, "You have a duty to protect yourself and your
> >> family.
> >> We're partners now. Can I count on you?"
>
> > -Well, no police department can really protect the citizens with or
> > -without layoffs. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police
> > -are only minutes away. Unless we pay to assign a couple of cops to
> > -every citizen that is the way it must be, they simply cannot be there
> > -whenever a crime is about to be committed. They can lock up the bad
> > -guys and thus prevent them doing more damage (if they get evidence and
> > -the judge agrees) but that is pretty much the extent of their
> > -preventative ability.
>
> > I pretty much agree.
> > In another group a 'Major' added:
> > - Q: "Why do you carry a gun? "
> > - A: "Because a cop is too heavy. "
> > (And also, way too expensive for the 99.99% of the
> > time that most sane people do not need them.)
>
> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
- themselves.
- Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
- the USA.
Weelll, Harry, (although I do not agree with it) there is a school
of thought out there, that believes there is a higher moral
virtue to a lady that has been raped and strangled to
death with her pantyhose, than there is, to the lady
explaining to the police how the rapist got full of lead
while her gun became empty of lead.
(I urge & advise, "Only enough to stop the threat!!")
I personally believe there is virtue in getting home
alive to one's husband & children.
a425couple
Jan 31, 2013, 1:18:05 PM1/31/13
to
"Baxter" <baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in...
> "Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message...
(You might try reading about "arrest warrants"
and "probable cause".)
Also noting that in the UK, about 20 years ago,
they changed their structure, so as to no longer need
"probable cause" to force a person to go to the
police station & be questioned.
> "Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message...
>>And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
>>the USA.
>
> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
I very much disagree with you on that.
>>themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
>>the USA.
>
> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
(You might try reading about "arrest warrants"
and "probable cause".)
Also noting that in the UK, about 20 years ago,
they changed their structure, so as to no longer need
"probable cause" to force a person to go to the
police station & be questioned.
Yer Pal Al
Jan 31, 2013, 4:11:37 PM1/31/13
to
On Jan 31, 7:34 am, "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote:
> -
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:kee1u...@news3.newsguy.com...> "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
>
> >> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
>
> > True enough. And if the British are happy enough with
> > their situation, that is just fine with me.
> > They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
> > and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
> > (No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
>
> The British cops see themselves as part of the population - unlike American
> cops. British cops realize they can't defeat the mass of the population by
> force, American cops think they're the "Law" and you'd better obey.
You have a cynicism about the motivations law enforcement but you will
> >> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
>
> > True enough. And if the British are happy enough with
> > their situation, that is just fine with me.
> > They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
> > and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
> > (No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
>
> The British cops see themselves as part of the population - unlike American
> cops. British cops realize they can't defeat the mass of the population by
> force, American cops think they're the "Law" and you'd better obey.
literally suck Obama day and night as he flies drones over Americans.
What strange contradictions you have in your life. Explains a lot.
Sancho Panza
Jan 31, 2013, 5:11:32 PM1/31/13
to
Baxter
Jan 31, 2013, 5:45:09 PM1/31/13
to
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"Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
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Sancho Panza
Jan 31, 2013, 6:02:03 PM1/31/13
to
results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise
it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should do
something that you would not do yourself.
Bill Shatzer
Feb 1, 2013, 12:10:33 AM2/1/13
to
peace and justice,
Bill Shatzer
Feb 1, 2013, 12:14:27 AM2/1/13
to
peace and justice,
a425couple
Feb 1, 2013, 8:48:26 AM2/1/13
to
"Bill Shatzer" <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote in message...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield
supports Baxter's claim of:
Seems to me there was more than "nearly no reason at all."
A fingerprint expert had declared his fingerprint a "100% verified"
match with that found on a bag used in a mass killing.
Seems on the face of it, to be pretty good reason.
Now, that was found to be totally wrong and resulted in a formal
apology from the U.S. government and a $2 million settlement.
All a horrible mistake, (some dudes screwed up BIG time, & they
paid for it) but how can one claim there was no reason?
> Sancho Panza wrote:
>> On 1/31/2013 5:45 PM, Baxter wrote:
>>> "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message...
>> On 1/31/2013 5:45 PM, Baxter wrote:
>>>> On 1/31/2013 12:26 PM, Baxter wrote:
>>>>> "Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message...
>>>>>> And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>>>>> themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher
>>>>>> than the USA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>>>>>
>>>> For some posters, the words "habeas" and "corpus" don't hold any
>>>> meaning.
>>> You might ask some (American) Muslims about that.
>> If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the results
>> of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise it might
>> be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should do something
>> that you would not do yourself.
>
> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
Bill, are you seriously suggesting the Brandon Mayfield case
>>>>>> themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher
>>>>>> than the USA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>>>>>
>>>> For some posters, the words "habeas" and "corpus" don't hold any
>>>> meaning.
>>> You might ask some (American) Muslims about that.
>> If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the results
>> of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise it might
>> be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should do something
>> that you would not do yourself.
>
> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield
supports Baxter's claim of:
>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
?
Seems to me there was more than "nearly no reason at all."
A fingerprint expert had declared his fingerprint a "100% verified"
match with that found on a bag used in a mass killing.
Seems on the face of it, to be pretty good reason.
Now, that was found to be totally wrong and resulted in a formal
apology from the U.S. government and a $2 million settlement.
All a horrible mistake, (some dudes screwed up BIG time, & they
paid for it) but how can one claim there was no reason?
Baxter
Feb 1, 2013, 10:15:27 AM2/1/13
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"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kegh4...@news3.newsguy.com...
You need to do a bit more research - that fingerprint match was sketchy from
the git-go.
Moses
Feb 1, 2013, 1:12:16 PM2/1/13
to
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 05:48:26 -0800, "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Seems to me there was more than "nearly no reason at all."
>
> A fingerprint expert had declared his fingerprint a "100% verified"
Bullshit. The way they match finger prints is by finding points that
match. In Brandon's case they had a six point match when the standard is
for a 9 point match or better for a positive identification.
wrote:
> Seems to me there was more than "nearly no reason at all."
>
> A fingerprint expert had declared his fingerprint a "100% verified"
match. In Brandon's case they had a six point match when the standard is
for a 9 point match or better for a positive identification.
a425couple
Feb 1, 2013, 1:35:25 PM2/1/13
to
"Baxter" <baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message...
Yes, it was "sketchy" & screwed up big time & they paid for it.
But still, when a court recognized "expert" makes a written
declaration, IT IS A REASON!
And there are mechanisims to make them pay - when it is wrong.
And your, thinking this supports your 1/31 9:26 statement,
seems unfounded.
hal lillywhite
Feb 1, 2013, 1:45:23 PM2/1/13
to
On Jan 31, 11:14 pm, Bill Shatzer <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote:
> > If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
> > results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise
> > it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should do
> > something that you would not do yourself.
>
> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
At least there was some evidence against Mayfield. Bad evidence but
> > If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
> > results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise
> > it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should do
> > something that you would not do yourself.
>
> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
evidence nonetheless and the alleged actions were rather serious.
However if you want real "jack-booted thugs" sort of actions just look
at what happens in some places for the "crime" of being politically
incorrect. eg.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/mike-debonis/post/dc-orders-dirty-asian-punch-off-bars-menu/2012/09/12/3f7e9188-fc4d-11e1-8adc-499661afe377_blog.html
Note, "The sign was removed Friday after a city agency threatened to
drag Tomelden before the D.C. Commission on Human Rights in a rare
display of the city’s little-known power to regulate speech in places
of public accommodation."
See also,
http://dc.eater.com/archives/2012/09/12/dc-forces-the-pug-to-rename-marion-berrys-dirty-asian-summer-punch.php
These human rights commissions seem to have the power of police,
judge , jury and executioner and to hell with free speech.
Baxter
Feb 1, 2013, 2:38:29 PM2/1/13
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"hal lillywhite" <hlil...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1bc5b6cf-127c-4607...@i2g2000pbi.googlegroups.com...
>On Jan 31, 11:14 pm, Bill Shatzer <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote:
>
>> > If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
>> > results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise
>> > it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should
>> > do
>> > something that you would not do yourself.
>>
>> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
>
>At least there was some evidence against Mayfield.
Actually there wasn't. A number from a database is perhaps a lead - not
>
>> > If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
>> > results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise
>> > it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should
>> > do
>> > something that you would not do yourself.
>>
>> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
>
>At least there was some evidence against Mayfield.
evidence.
1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities
Feb 1, 2013, 5:44:04 PM2/1/13
to
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:34:35 -0800, "Baxter"
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:kee1u...@news3.newsguy.com...
>> "Baxter" <baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
>>
>> True enough. And if the British are happy enough with
>> their situation, that is just fine with me.
>> They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
>> and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
>> (No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
>>
>The British cops see themselves as part of the population - unlike American
>cops. British cops realize they can't defeat the mass of the population by
>force, American cops think they're the "Law" and you'd better obey.
Did they catch you misbehaving again?
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:kee1u...@news3.newsguy.com...
>> "Baxter" <baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>> And yet the British beat cops manage without guns.
>>
>> True enough. And if the British are happy enough with
>> their situation, that is just fine with me.
>> They have been quite blessed with quite sane monarchs,
>> and a "common law" that works well (so far) for them.
>> (No insane people like Hitler taking over.)
>>
>The British cops see themselves as part of the population - unlike American
>cops. British cops realize they can't defeat the mass of the population by
>force, American cops think they're the "Law" and you'd better obey.
1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities
Feb 1, 2013, 5:45:51 PM2/1/13
to
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:26:38 -0800, "Baxter"
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message
>news:977e6160-caae-45d4...@d2g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
>
>>And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
>>the USA.
>
>Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
What did you nearly do, Bax?
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message
>news:977e6160-caae-45d4...@d2g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
>
>>And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
>>the USA.
>
>Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
Baxter
Feb 1, 2013, 7:24:06 PM2/1/13
to
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"1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities"
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<Tawana....@whitehouse.gov> wrote in message
news:achog81e7q5v4dfmb...@4ax.com...
Bill Shatzer
Feb 1, 2013, 7:32:09 PM2/1/13
to
a425couple wrote:
> "Bill Shatzer" <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote in message...
>
>> Sancho Panza wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/31/2013 5:45 PM, Baxter wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message...
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/31/2013 12:26 PM, Baxter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>>>>>> themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher
>>>>>>> than the USA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>>>>> For some posters, the words "habeas" and "corpus" don't hold any
>>>>> meaning.
>>>> You might ask some (American) Muslims about that.
>>> If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
>>> results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that."
>>> Otherwise it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that
>>> they should do something that you would not do yourself.
>> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
>
>
> Bill, are you seriously suggesting the Brandon Mayfield case
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield
> supports Baxter's claim of:
>
>>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
> "Bill Shatzer" <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote in message...
>
>> Sancho Panza wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/31/2013 5:45 PM, Baxter wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message...
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/31/2013 12:26 PM, Baxter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>>>>>> themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher
>>>>>>> than the USA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>>>>> For some posters, the words "habeas" and "corpus" don't hold any
>>>>> meaning.
>>>> You might ask some (American) Muslims about that.
>>> If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
>>> results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that."
>>> Otherwise it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that
>>> they should do something that you would not do yourself.
>> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
>
>
> Bill, are you seriously suggesting the Brandon Mayfield case
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield
> supports Baxter's claim of:
>
>>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
> Seems to me there was more than "nearly no reason at all."
C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute
Peace and justice,
Sancho Panza
Feb 1, 2013, 8:12:23 PM2/1/13
to
"corpus" along with their accompanying reasons for their
requests/actions to an at least theoretically objective and impartial
magistrate.
1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities
Feb 1, 2013, 11:35:44 PM2/1/13
to
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 16:24:06 -0800, "Baxter"
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities"
><Tawana....@whitehouse.gov> wrote in message
>news:achog81e7q5v4dfmb...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:26:38 -0800, "Baxter"
>> <baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message
>>>news:977e6160-caae-45d4...@d2g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>>>themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
>>>>the USA.
>>>
>>>Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>>
>> What did you nearly do, Bax?
>
>I nearly went outside my house.
Electronic ankle bracelet, eh?
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities"
><Tawana....@whitehouse.gov> wrote in message
>news:achog81e7q5v4dfmb...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:26:38 -0800, "Baxter"
>> <baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message
>>>news:977e6160-caae-45d4...@d2g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>>>themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher than
>>>>the USA.
>>>
>>>Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>>
>> What did you nearly do, Bax?
>
>I nearly went outside my house.
Remind me to send a box of doughnuts to your local cop shop.
Bill Shatzer
Feb 2, 2013, 12:17:08 AM2/2/13
to
hal lillywhite wrote:
> On Jan 31, 11:14 pm, Bill Shatzer <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote:
>>>If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
>>>results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise
>>>it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should do
>>>something that you would not do yourself.
>>Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
> At least there was some evidence against Mayfield. Bad evidence but
> evidence nonetheless and the alleged actions were rather serious.
Mayfield's sole offense was being Muslim. Once they discovered he was a
> On Jan 31, 11:14 pm, Bill Shatzer <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote:
>>>If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
>>>results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise
>>>it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should do
>>>something that you would not do yourself.
>>Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
> At least there was some evidence against Mayfield. Bad evidence but
> evidence nonetheless and the alleged actions were rather serious.
Muslim convert it was balls out and full speed ahead.
> However if you want real "jack-booted thugs" sort of actions just look
> at what happens in some places for the "crime" of being politically
> incorrect. eg.
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/mike-debonis/post/dc-orders-dirty-asian-punch-off-bars-menu/2012/09/12/3f7e9188-fc4d-11e1-8adc-499661afe377_blog.html
contact with either family or legal counsel for weeks?
If you think this incident is in any way similar to the Mayfield
episode, you've got a couple loose equivalence screws.
Jackbooted thugs indeed!
> Note, "The sign was removed Friday after a city agency threatened to
> drag Tomelden before the D.C. Commission on Human Rights in a rare
> display of the city’s little-known power to regulate speech in places
> of public accommodation."
> See also,
> http://dc.eater.com/archives/2012/09/12/dc-forces-the-pug-to-rename-marion-berrys-dirty-asian-summer-punch.php
> These human rights commissions seem to have the power of police,
> judge , jury and executioner and to hell with free speech.
then certified to the Commission. After certification, the Commission
conducts a secondary, independent review of the case. The secondary
review includes an evidentiary hearing in a “trial-type” setting either
before an administrative law judge or a panel of three Commissioners.
"The Commission’s hearing process operates under the District of
Columbia Administrative Procedure Act as well as the Commission’s Rules
of Procedure for Contested Cases, 4 DCMR § 400 et seq. (1995). Hearings
are de novo, or “from the beginning,” and parties have access to full
discovery and motion practice, have the opportunity to submit
documentary evidence, and may present testimony by witnesses who are
subject to cross-examination. All hearings are public and transcribed by
a court reporter.
"Once an administrative law judge within the Commission completes the
hearing, he or she reviews the record and issues a proposed decision
with findings of fact and conclusions of law. The proposed decision is
then given to the parties who have the opportunity to submit written
exceptions to the proposed opinion. After the written exceptions filed
by the parties are addressed, the administrative law judge submits the
entire record to the three Commissioners assigned to the case. The
Commissioner then issue a final decision that either affirms, modifies
or rejects the administrative law judge’s proposed decision.
"When discrimination is found, the Commission may award a successful
complainant injunctive relief, back and front pay, compensatory damages,
and/or attorney’s fees. The Commission is also authorized to furnish a
civil penalty on a discriminating respondent which is paid to the
District government. Final decisions of the Commission may be appealed
to the District of Columbia Court of Appeals."
http://ohr.dc.gov/commission
Note that any final action of the commission can be appealed to the courts.
Seems an abundance of due process in the entire scheme. Certainly more
due process than Brandon Mayfield got.
The entire process falls considerably short of one agency being "police,
judge, jury and executioner"
peace and justice,
Baxter
Feb 2, 2013, 11:36:20 AM2/2/13
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1
http://www.standard.net/stories/2012/12/31/ogden-police-apologize-raid-wrong-house
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48018051/
http://www.naturalnews.com/036698_police_raid_family_dog_victims.html
a425couple
Feb 2, 2013, 11:47:48 AM2/2/13
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"Bill Shatzer" <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote in message...
> a425couple wrote:
>> "Bill Shatzer" <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote in message...
>>> Sancho Panza wrote:
>>>> Baxter wrote:
>>>>> "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message...
> a425couple wrote:
>> "Bill Shatzer" <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote in message...
>>> Sancho Panza wrote:
>>>> Baxter wrote:
>>>>> "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message...
>>>>>> Baxter wrote:
>>>>>>> "Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message...
>>>>>>>> And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>>>>>>> themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher
>>>>>>>> than the USA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>
>>>>>> For some posters, the words "habeas" and "corpus" don't hold any
>>>>>> meaning.
>>>>> You might ask some (American) Muslims about that.
>>>> If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
>>>> results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that."
>>>> Otherwise it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that
>>>> they should do something that you would not do yourself.
>
>>> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
>>
>> Bill, are you seriously suggesting the Brandon Mayfield case
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield
>> supports Baxter's claim of:
>>>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>> Seems to me there was more than "nearly no reason at all."
>>>>>>> "Harry K" <tur...@q.com> wrote in message...
>>>>>>>> And the citizens will go to jail if they use a gun to defend
>>>>>>>> themselves. Wonder why Britains overall crime rate is far higher
>>>>>>>> than the USA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>
>>>>>> For some posters, the words "habeas" and "corpus" don't hold any
>>>>>> meaning.
>>>>> You might ask some (American) Muslims about that.
>>>> If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
>>>> results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that."
>>>> Otherwise it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that
>>>> they should do something that you would not do yourself.
>
>>> Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
>>
>> Bill, are you seriously suggesting the Brandon Mayfield case
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield
>> supports Baxter's claim of:
>>>>>>> Whereas in America you can go to jail for nearly no reason at all.
>> Seems to me there was more than "nearly no reason at all."
>> A fingerprint expert had declared his fingerprint a "100% verified"
>> match with that found on a bag used in a mass killing.
>> Seems on the face of it, to be pretty good reason.
>> Now, that was found to be totally wrong and resulted in a formal
>> apology from the U.S. government and a $2 million settlement.
>> All a horrible mistake, (some dudes screwed up BIG time, & they
>> paid for it) but how can one claim there was no reason?
>
> C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute
> Peace and justice,
Or, a statement often rendered in English as
>> match with that found on a bag used in a mass killing.
>> Seems on the face of it, to be pretty good reason.
>> Now, that was found to be totally wrong and resulted in a formal
>> apology from the U.S. government and a $2 million settlement.
>> All a horrible mistake, (some dudes screwed up BIG time, & they
>> paid for it) but how can one claim there was no reason?
>
> C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute
> Peace and justice,
"It was worse than a crime; it was a blunder."
Agreeing on that.
But, as always in the past under a dictator, be it
Genghas Kahn, Napoleon, Stalin or Hitler, if they want
you dead - you will probably die.
Whereas our best defense is a nation of laws, and a
due process criminal justice system that follows steps of
evidence (or a line of "reason") that mostly comes
to the right answer.
And that often depends upon giving the presumption of
truth to statements of governmential employees or citizens
and acting initially on it (and doing further examination to verify).
Is "Bill" suggesting we not do that?
(Sheesh, If I said we should ignore statements of
governmential employees = he would call me a "nutter"!)
Is "Bill" really thinking Mayfield's arrest had no "reason"?
(granted, it turned out to be a BAD mistake by the Feds
based on flawed evidence!)
hal lillywhite
Feb 2, 2013, 12:27:23 PM2/2/13
to
On Feb 1, 11:17 pm, Bill Shatzer <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote:
> hal lillywhite wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 11:14 pm, Bill Shatzer <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote:
> >>>If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
> >>>results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise
> >>>it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should do
> >>>something that you would not do yourself.
> >>Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
> > At least there was some evidence against Mayfield. Bad evidence but
> > evidence nonetheless and the alleged actions were rather serious.
>
> Mayfield's sole offense was being Muslim. Once they discovered he was a
> Muslim convert it was balls out and full speed ahead.
Yet they had an alleged expert claiming that the fingerprint was
> hal lillywhite wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 11:14 pm, Bill Shatzer <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote:
> >>>If you have done just what you preach right here, please post the
> >>>results of your asking "some (American) Muslims about that." Otherwise
> >>>it might be basically civil to not suggest to anyone that they should do
> >>>something that you would not do yourself.
> >>Two words: "Brandon" and "Mayfield".
> > At least there was some evidence against Mayfield. Bad evidence but
> > evidence nonetheless and the alleged actions were rather serious.
>
> Mayfield's sole offense was being Muslim. Once they discovered he was a
> Muslim convert it was balls out and full speed ahead.
definitely his.
Nobody is claiming that that case was any example of good police work,
it was not. In fact I suspect it might be used in police academies as
an example of what to avoid. It was a terrible mistake and he got
what, a couple of million bucks as compensation?
Plus he had a history of defending, at greatly reduced rates, some
rather nasty folk.
> > However if you want real "jack-booted thugs" sort of actions just look
> > at what happens in some places for the "crime" of being politically
> > incorrect. eg.
>
> Did they put the bartender in solitary confinement and refuse him any
> contact with either family or legal counsel for weeks?
They threatened his livelihood and the business he put his heart and
> Did they put the bartender in solitary confinement and refuse him any
> contact with either family or legal counsel for weeks?
soul into.
> If you think this incident is in any way similar to the Mayfield
> episode, you've got a couple loose equivalence screws.
>
> Jackbooted thugs indeed!
poked fun at Marion Berry's racist statements. Berry is a powerful
political figure there. Not nice to use your freedom of speech
against the powerful, right?
This is an assault on the first amendment. Take away our freedom of
expression and we will have tyranny.
> > Note, "The sign was removed Friday after a city agency threatened to
> > drag Tomelden before the D.C. Commission on Human Rights in a rare
> > display of the city’s little-known power to regulate speech in places
> > of public accommodation."
>
> There is more than one way to say, "No dogs or Irish allowed".
statement that any group is not welcome?
> > See also,
> >http://dc.eater.com/archives/2012/09/12/dc-forces-the-pug-to-rename-m...
> > These human rights commissions seem to have the power of police,
> > judge , jury and executioner and to hell with free speech.
>
> "If OHR finds “probable cause” that discrimination occurred, the case is
> then certified to the Commission. After certification, the Commission
> conducts a secondary, independent review of the case.
Any evidence that any of that happened before they gave the guy the
> > judge , jury and executioner and to hell with free speech.
>
> "If OHR finds “probable cause” that discrimination occurred, the case is
> then certified to the Commission. After certification, the Commission
> conducts a secondary, independent review of the case.
threatening letter?
> The secondary
> review includes an evidentiary hearing in a “trial-type” setting either
> before an administrative law judge or a panel of three Commissioners.
specific law was he alleged to have violated?
In fact the commission seems to act as legislature as well. The drink
name might offend someone so they declare it illegal. What law
prohibits offending someone?
> "The Commission’s hearing process operates under the District of
> Columbia Administrative Procedure Act as well as the Commission’s Rules
> of Procedure for Contested Cases, 4 DCMR § 400 et seq. (1995). Hearings
> are de novo, or “from the beginning,” and parties have access to full
> discovery and motion practice, have the opportunity to submit
> documentary evidence, and may present testimony by witnesses who are
> subject to cross-examination. All hearings are public and transcribed by
> a court reporter.
> "Once an administrative law judge within the Commission completes the
> hearing, he or she reviews the record and issues a proposed decision
> with findings of fact and conclusions of law. The proposed decision is
> then given to the parties who have the opportunity to submit written
> exceptions to the proposed opinion. After the written exceptions filed
> by the parties are addressed, the administrative law judge submits the
> entire record to the three Commissioners assigned to the case. The
> Commissioner then issue a final decision that either affirms, modifies
> or rejects the administrative law judge’s proposed decision.
>
> "When discrimination is found, the Commission may award a successful
> complainant injunctive relief, back and front pay, compensatory damages,
> and/or attorney’s fees.
whatever that any of his customers complained? Instead it appears
that the commission decided the drink name was offensive, acting as
police, judge, jury and executioner.
>The Commission is also authorized to furnish a
> civil penalty on a discriminating respondent which is paid to the
> District government.
> Final decisions of the Commission may be appealed
> to the District of Columbia Court of Appeals."
>
> http://ohr.dc.gov/commission
>
> Note that any final action of the commission can be appealed to the courts.
was apparently not followed in this case). What is that likely to
cost the accused? What are his chances of recovering legal expenses?
> Seems an abundance of due process in the entire scheme. Certainly more
> due process than Brandon Mayfield got.
reports are notoriously faulty but it appears that someone just
decided he was guilty and handed him the demand letter.
> The entire process falls considerably short of one agency being "police,
> judge, jury and executioner"
fact followed.
Baxter
Feb 2, 2013, 2:04:08 PM2/2/13
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"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kejg0...@news3.newsguy.com...
>
> Whereas our best defense is a nation of laws, and a due process criminal
> justice system that follows steps of evidence (or a line of "reason") that
> mostly comes to the right answer.
Which is pretty much the antithesis of the right-wing concept of a militia.
> Whereas our best defense is a nation of laws, and a due process criminal
> justice system that follows steps of evidence (or a line of "reason") that
> mostly comes to the right answer.
Yer Pal Al
Feb 3, 2013, 6:05:25 AM2/3/13
to
On Feb 2, 11:04 am, "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote:
> -
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> -
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> Free Software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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>
> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:kejg0...@news3.newsguy.com...
>
> > Whereas our best defense is a nation of laws, and a due process criminal
> > justice system that follows steps of evidence (or a line of "reason") that
> > mostly comes to the right answer.
>
> Which is pretty much the antithesis of the right-wing concept of a militia.
Whereas the left-wing concept of a militia is Code Pink.
> news:kejg0...@news3.newsguy.com...
>
> > Whereas our best defense is a nation of laws, and a due process criminal
> > justice system that follows steps of evidence (or a line of "reason") that
> > mostly comes to the right answer.
>
> Which is pretty much the antithesis of the right-wing concept of a militia.
1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities
Feb 3, 2013, 7:06:05 AM2/3/13
to
On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:17:08 -0800, Bill Shatzer <ww...@NOcornell.edu>
wrote:
More accurately, a fancy way to rationalize leftist thought control.
Screw 'em. If they don't understand the first amendment, perhaps they
should be reminded of the second...
wrote:
Screw 'em. If they don't understand the first amendment, perhaps they
should be reminded of the second...
Sancho Panza
Feb 3, 2013, 12:10:14 PM2/3/13
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Baxter
Feb 3, 2013, 2:47:27 PM2/3/13
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"Yer Pal Al" <caddys...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:abeb81c7-7235-42dc...@tc10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
Rational people figured out over 150 years ago that the Militia model was
unworkable. It was an idealogical thing in the mid 1700's, but by the early
1800's it had been mostly abandoned. Even it's incarnation as a posse is
obsolete.
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"Yer Pal Al" <caddys...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:abeb81c7-7235-42dc...@tc10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
unworkable. It was an idealogical thing in the mid 1700's, but by the early
1800's it had been mostly abandoned. Even it's incarnation as a posse is
obsolete.
Baxter
Feb 3, 2013, 2:52:02 PM2/3/13
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Let's see - did our Nuclear arsenal stop 9/11? Was it in any way useful?
Did any of the millions of guns in the US stop 9/11?
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news:510e99f8$0$24759$607e...@cv.net...
Did any of the millions of guns in the US stop 9/11?
Sancho Panza
Feb 3, 2013, 5:05:48 PM2/3/13
to
subsequent 9/11's. The nukes haven't been needed. The guns have not been
required to be used ----yet.
1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities
Feb 5, 2013, 6:09:59 AM2/5/13
to
1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities
Feb 5, 2013, 6:11:24 AM2/5/13
to
On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 11:52:02 -0800, "Baxter"
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:510e99f8$0$24759$607e...@cv.net...
>> On 2/3/2013 6:05 AM, Yer Pal Al wrote:
>>> On Feb 2, 11:04 am, "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>>>> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:kejg0...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>>
>>>>> Whereas our best defense is a nation of laws, and a due process
>>>>> criminal
>>>>> justice system that follows steps of evidence (or a line of "reason")
>>>>> that
>>>>> mostly comes to the right answer.
>>>>
>>>> Which is pretty much the antithesis of the right-wing concept of a
>>>> militia.
>>>
>>> Whereas the left-wing concept of a militia is Code Pink.
>>>
>> Yup, that bunch will sure stop the terrorists in their tracks.
>>
>Let's see - did our Nuclear arsenal stop 9/11? Was it in any way useful?
>Did any of the millions of guns in the US stop 9/11?
A bunch of heroes with a food cart stopped a quarter of it.
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:510e99f8$0$24759$607e...@cv.net...
>> On 2/3/2013 6:05 AM, Yer Pal Al wrote:
>>> On Feb 2, 11:04 am, "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>>>> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:kejg0...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>>
>>>>> Whereas our best defense is a nation of laws, and a due process
>>>>> criminal
>>>>> justice system that follows steps of evidence (or a line of "reason")
>>>>> that
>>>>> mostly comes to the right answer.
>>>>
>>>> Which is pretty much the antithesis of the right-wing concept of a
>>>> militia.
>>>
>>> Whereas the left-wing concept of a militia is Code Pink.
>>>
>> Yup, that bunch will sure stop the terrorists in their tracks.
>>
>Let's see - did our Nuclear arsenal stop 9/11? Was it in any way useful?
>Did any of the millions of guns in the US stop 9/11?
But you wouldn't know anything about heroes, would you.
1904 murdered in Obama's organized communities
Feb 5, 2013, 6:15:23 AM2/5/13
to
On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 11:47:27 -0800, "Baxter"
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"Yer Pal Al" <caddys...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:abeb81c7-7235-42dc...@tc10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
>On Feb 2, 11:04 am, "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>>> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:kejg0...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>
>>> > Whereas our best defense is a nation of laws, and a due process
>>> > criminal
>>> > justice system that follows steps of evidence (or a line of "reason")
>>> > that
>>> > mostly comes to the right answer.
>>>
>>> Which is pretty much the antithesis of the right-wing concept of a
>>> militia.
>>
>>Whereas the left-wing concept of a militia is Code Pink.
>
>Rational people figured out over 150 years ago that the Militia model was
>unworkable. It was an idealogical thing in the mid 1700's, but by the early
>1800's it had been mostly abandoned. Even it's incarnation as a posse is
>obsolete.
While private ownership has worked out about 99.9% just fine.
<baxter.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>"Yer Pal Al" <caddys...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:abeb81c7-7235-42dc...@tc10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
>On Feb 2, 11:04 am, "Baxter" <baxter.spambl...@baxcode.com> wrote:
>>> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:kejg0...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>
>>> > Whereas our best defense is a nation of laws, and a due process
>>> > criminal
>>> > justice system that follows steps of evidence (or a line of "reason")
>>> > that
>>> > mostly comes to the right answer.
>>>
>>> Which is pretty much the antithesis of the right-wing concept of a
>>> militia.
>>
>>Whereas the left-wing concept of a militia is Code Pink.
>
>Rational people figured out over 150 years ago that the Militia model was
>unworkable. It was an idealogical thing in the mid 1700's, but by the early
>1800's it had been mostly abandoned. Even it's incarnation as a posse is
>obsolete.
Except in the cities where the DemocRats trained the urban vermin to
kill for the wrong color underwear...
You and your dog Barky are barking up a dead tree.
Molon labe, little lib.
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