When you have a team size a story and its the first time they have
done this work, let's say for example they are writing a new report
from a new DB. They size the story at 8, next sprint.....Story is
presented for a report very similiar to the first report. Here's the
question, do you coach them to size it as a 8 or do you give in to
their protests that now they know more and want to size the story as a
5?
I continually run into this issue with new teams. Generally I have
been allowing them to use the 5 sizing with the understanding that the
5 is the baseline going forward.
IMO You always go by team consensus, even of their sizing is wrong. I suggest coaching them on the sizing process but let them determine. Who knows, they might actually end up being right. If not, they learn by doing, not by being "allowed" or told.
Thank You,
John Sent from my iPhone. It likes to sabotage my grammar.
On May 14, 2012, at 11:29 AM, Ginger <gingermccal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When you have a team size a story and its the first time they have
> done this work, let's say for example they are writing a new report
> from a new DB. They size the story at 8, next sprint.....Story is
> presented for a report very similiar to the first report. Here's the
> question, do you coach them to size it as a 8 or do you give in to
> their protests that now they know more and want to size the story as a
> 5?
> I continually run into this issue with new teams. Generally I have
> been allowing them to use the 5 sizing with the understanding that the
> 5 is the baseline going forward.
> Any Advice?
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
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Hi Ginger!
Some weeks ago someone said (I don't remember who, but his saying is still
in my mind nowadays) that in that case you will be comparing experienced
points against novice points, and that's like comparing pears to bananas.
You should try to keep the same size of the stories, but I realize the
importance in mid-term of the question and the fact of the overestimated
task. Maybe you should show them how to measure it correctly, and encourage
them to assume they can change just the velocity.
It's a common approach to reduce the newest size, since they will make it
faster than the first time. But you should be careful with this sort of
things: there is a thin gap between correct sizing and "adjusting the
general planning".
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Ginger <gingermccal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When you have a team size a story and its the first time they have
> done this work, let's say for example they are writing a new report
> from a new DB. They size the story at 8, next sprint.....Story is
> presented for a report very similiar to the first report. Here's the
> question, do you coach them to size it as a 8 or do you give in to
> their protests that now they know more and want to size the story as a
> 5?
> I continually run into this issue with new teams. Generally I have
> been allowing them to use the 5 sizing with the understanding that the
> 5 is the baseline going forward.
> Any Advice?
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
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> Hi Ginger!
> Some weeks ago someone said (I don't remember who, but his saying is still
> in my mind nowadays) that in that case you will be comparing experienced
> points against novice points, and that's like comparing pears to bananas.
> You should try to keep the same size of the stories, but I realize the
> importance in mid-term of the question and the fact of the overestimated
> task. Maybe you should show them how to measure it correctly, and encourage
> them to assume they can change just the velocity.
> It's a common approach to reduce the newest size, since they will make it
> faster than the first time. But you should be careful with this sort of
> things: there is a thin gap between correct sizing and "adjusting the
> general planning".
> Hope it helped :)
> Best!
> --
> L.-
> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Ginger <gingermccal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > When you have a team size a story and its the first time they have
> > done this work, let's say for example they are writing a new report
> > from a new DB. They size the story at 8, next sprint.....Story is
> > presented for a report very similiar to the first report. Here's the
> > question, do you coach them to size it as a 8 or do you give in to
> > their protests that now they know more and want to size the story as a
> > 5?
> > I continually run into this issue with new teams. Generally I have
> > been allowing them to use the 5 sizing with the understanding that the
> > 5 is the baseline going forward.
> > Any Advice?
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
> > To post to this group, send email to scrumalliance@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > scrumalliance+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/scrumalliance?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
Always bear in mind why you are using story points. Do not use them to try to measure productivity. They are too easily gamed.
The best use of Story points is so make a reasonable forecast of how long it will take the team to finish a given number of items in the backlog.
To do this one needs both estimated story points and measured velocity. The fact that subsequent reports will take less time than the first report can be handled mathematically by reducing the story point estimate for those stories, or by simply letting velocity increase. So which should you choose?
In the case where the team is becoming increasingly familiar with the technology they are using and the domain they are working in - and this increase is not limited to a certain type of story, teams I have worked with prefer to handle this by simply letting measured velocity increase. However if the learning is limited to a specific subset of the backlog, teams typically prefer to size (or resize) those specific stories to take learning into account.
Whatever you do, at the end of the day, if your teams' measured average velocity is 20 story points per sprint, and there are 100 story point in the backlog, and you look at the team and say, "barring unforeseen circumstances, we should be able to finish in about 5 sprints, right?" the teams' gut reaction should match the math.
-----Original Message-----
From: scrumalliance@googlegroups.com [mailto:scrumalliance@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Miller
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 2:35 PM
To: scrumalliance@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Scrum] Story Sizing
Ginger,
IMO You always go by team consensus, even of their sizing is wrong. I suggest coaching them on the sizing process but let them determine. Who knows, they might actually end up being right. If not, they learn by doing, not by being "allowed" or told.
Thank You,
John Sent from my iPhone. It likes to sabotage my grammar.
On May 14, 2012, at 11:29 AM, Ginger <gingermccal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When you have a team size a story and its the first time they have
> done this work, let's say for example they are writing a new report
> from a new DB. They size the story at 8, next sprint.....Story is
> presented for a report very similiar to the first report. Here's the
> question, do you coach them to size it as a 8 or do you give in to
> their protests that now they know more and want to size the story as a
> 5?
> I continually run into this issue with new teams. Generally I have
> been allowing them to use the 5 sizing with the understanding that the
> 5 is the baseline going forward.
> Any Advice?
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
> To post to this group, send email to scrumalliance@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to scrumalliance+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/scrumalliance?hl=en.
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> When you have a team size a story and its the first time they have
> done this work, let's say for example they are writing a new report
> from a new DB. They size the story at 8, next sprint.....Story is
> presented for a report very similiar to the first report. Here's the
> question, do you coach them to size it as a 8 or do you give in to
> their protests that now they know more and want to size the story as a
> 5?
Surely we want stories sized as what size they are? Under what circumstances might we want the wrong answer? I can't think of one ...
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
Yin and Yang I figure.
-- Tom Jeffries
Whether or not a story just like one in the previous sprint is smaller
or larger is a small issue. What is more important is that you, the
coach, seem willing to dispute the size of a story with the team.
The coach should not usually give or push the team to answers that
they should find for themselves. The coach should provide visibility
to an answer that the team decides for themselves. The team is doing
they work and, therefore, they do the estimates. Help them see what
they need to see and get out of the way of their learning.
Team: "It's 5."
Coach: "But the last one like this was 8. Why do you say 5?"
Team: "Because we know more now."
Coach: "OK, I'm glad you are thinking about your experience."
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Ginger <gingermccal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When you have a team size a story and its the first time they have
> done this work, let's say for example they are writing a new report
> from a new DB. They size the story at 8, next sprint.....Story is
> presented for a report very similiar to the first report. Here's the
> question, do you coach them to size it as a 8 or do you give in to
> their protests that now they know more and want to size the story as a
> 5?
> I continually run into this issue with new teams. Generally I have
> been allowing them to use the 5 sizing with the understanding that the
> 5 is the baseline going forward.
> Any Advice?
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
> To post to this group, send email to scrumalliance@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to scrumalliance+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/scrumalliance?hl=en.
> Whether or not a story just like one in the previous sprint is smaller
> or larger is a small issue. What is more important is that you, the
> coach, seem willing to dispute the size of a story with the team.
> The coach should not usually give or push the team to answers that
> they should find for themselves. The coach should provide visibility
> to an answer that the team decides for themselves. The team is doing
> they work and, therefore, they do the estimates. Help them see what
> they need to see and get out of the way of their learning.
> Team: "It's 5."
> Coach: "But the last one like this was 8. Why do you say 5?"
> Team: "Because we know more now."
> Coach: "OK, I'm glad you are thinking about your experience."
> Alan
> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Ginger <gingermccal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> When you have a team size a story and its the first time they have
>> done this work, let's say for example they are writing a new report
>> from a new DB. They size the story at 8, next sprint.....Story is
>> presented for a report very similiar to the first report. Here's the
>> question, do you coach them to size it as a 8 or do you give in to
>> their protests that now they know more and want to size the story as a
>> 5?
>> I continually run into this issue with new teams. Generally I have
>> been allowing them to use the 5 sizing with the understanding that the
>> 5 is the baseline going forward.
>> Any Advice?
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
>> To post to this group, send email to scrumalliance@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to scrumalliance+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/scrumalliance?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
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