Re: Improvements SCITE

[Odaylton Junior- BR]

Thanks for the prompt return of ....
It is not just an abbreviation of one word but an automation of the sets of words that interact eg If Then Else EndIf actually is an evolution of program editors what I'm proposing.
It is similar to what exists in the flash programming but much better because it standardizes the programming lines.
I'll check it and see if I can generate these improvements but would like an expert in the project could do that.

On Sunday, April 21, 2013 10:22:30 AM UTC-3, Jos wrote:

My Guess is that you are talking about the SciTE4Autoit3 setup I am distributing and that your comments are about the Abbreviations we deliver with it.

Have you looked at what we have available in the standard Abbreviations file and the option for setting up your own Abbreviations?

Anyway, This discussion probably belongs in the Autoit3 Forums. :)

Jos

[Neil Hodgson]

Odaylton Junior- BR:

It is not just an abbreviation of one word but an automation of the sets of words that interact eg If Then Else EndIf actually is an evolution of program editors what I'm proposing.

   Sounds like the feature that is commonly called "snippets". For an example implementation that uses Scintilla, see Komodo Edit.

   Here's some explanation from TextMate:

http://manual.macromates.com/en/snippets#snippets

   Neil

[Odaylton Junior- BR]

It is difficult to invent the wheel today ...
Really seems to be a "Snippet" what I suggested as editor implementation and see that there is even a Komodo in editor to create their own routines.
I figured something simpler than typing a keyword (eg "IF") the editor automatically completed the following lines and back to after the word "IF".
I made a little program in autoit that allows it to where it is next to the clock and TrayMenu I call the routine. but I think it would be nice to be already integrated to the editor

I think the "TextMate" would be something like the item "5.1.2 Tab Triggers" and snippets

[KHMan]

On 4/24/2013 9:26 AM, Odaylton Junior- BR wrote:
> It is difficult to invent the wheel today ...

Yes. See how Windows 8 is breaking so many desktop UI rules in an
effort to be novel...

> Really seems to be a "Snippet" what I suggested as editor
> implementation and see that there is even a Komodo in editor to
> create their own routines.
> I figured something simpler than typing a keyword (eg "IF") the
> editor automatically completed the following lines and back to
> after the word "IF".
> I made a little program in autoit that allows it to where it is
> next to the clock and TrayMenu I call the routine. but I think it
> would be nice to be already integrated to the editor

As a user/coder, I prefer explicitly selecting the template. You
have to balance smart fill-ins versus intrusiveness. It may be
novel at first, the user may find that it gets in the way after a
while. Newbies might like it, but old timers are all about muscle
memory... But of course, I would not totally dismiss your idea.

I think filling in templates automatically can be done using Lua
in SciTE. But if you implement auto fill-in, and you are editing
existing source code, then you cannot mess things up. Simple
auto-replacement is easy, but doing it with existing code, or
knowing when not to do it, that would take non-trivial effort.

> I think the "TextMate" would be something like the item "5.1.2 Tab
> Triggers" and snippets

Better not use the word "TextMate", you might step on TextMate's toes.

As a coder whose flow of thought isn't that fast, I doubt it can
make me code faster. (Also I don't believe in lines of code as a
metric.) Typing a few keywords or entering a {} block is very fast
using muscle memory. Cognitively, I am thinking about the flow of
execution when I type out the basic code structure, so I don't use
templates and I doubt productivity has measurably suffered.

More important and time consuming tasks are for example looking up
function definitions in a large codebase. Such problems are well
addressed by IDEs.

> On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:22:30 PM UTC-3, Neil Hodgson wrote:
>
> Odaylton Junior- BR:
>
>> It is not just an abbreviation of one word but an automation
>> of the sets of words that interact eg If Then Else EndIf
>> actually is an evolution of program editors what I'm proposing.
>
> Sounds like the feature that is commonly called
> "snippets". For an example implementation that uses Scintilla,
> see Komodo Edit.
>
> Here's some explanation from TextMate:
> http://manual.macromates.com/en/snippets#snippets

> <http://manual.macromates.com/en/snippets#snippets>
>
> Neil

--
Cheers,
Kein-Hong Man (esq.)
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

[Odaylton Junior- BR]

I stress that these features are very useful in the development and not for editing code.
So much so that if you read carefully the first post, you'll notice that the possibilities of standardization code is facilitated.
I love IT but my background is in mechanical engineering, if you notice the history of mankind, the great leap in technology was only possible with massive standardization and think the software is far from becoming a standard.
(there are many languages ​​that do the same thing with different dialects).
Started in 1985 with Basic and Assembler 6502 in the nail making my own editors LM because at that time if you wanted something that would create from scratch.
I'm returning to program with Autoit and I'm loving but I think the tools can further improve and hopefully someone lit as the creators of LUA (PUC-RJ Brazil) to implement these facilities in SCITE.

 

 

On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:57:57 PM UTC-3, KHMan wrote:

On 4/24/2013 9:26 AM, Odaylton Junior- BR wrote:
> It is difficult to invent the wheel today ...

Yes. See how Windows 8 is breaking so many desktop UI rules in an
effort to be novel...

As for Win8 is clear that Microsoft wants to work in the cloud and escape the DeskTop but this will be a bigger disaster than windows Vista.

[KHMan]

On 4/24/2013 11:16 AM, Odaylton Junior- BR wrote:
> I stress that these features are very useful in the development
> and not for editing code.
> So much so that if you read carefully the first post, you'll
> notice that the possibilities of standardization code is facilitated.

If by "standardization" you mean a consistent code style, then
there are source code formatters and linters available that can
ensure that a code repository is consistent.

I was discussing your particular example of automatic completion
or insertion of common program structures. Anyway how does the
editor differentiate "development" versus "editing code" (see your
above statement) if they are not the same? Any kind of on/off for
the auto completion will add a state, one more thing for the coder
to remember.

I'm sure the devs of say MS Visual C++ have considered the pros
and cons of various kinds of auto completion. Have you looked at
broadly similar features in IDEs? Normally mere editors do not
provide such features. You must see what they do in IDEs.

> I love IT but my background is in mechanical engineering, if you
> notice the history of mankind, the great leap in technology was
> only possible with massive standardization and think the software
> is far from becoming a standard.

So, what are you actually trying to solve in the context of
writing code when you use the word "standardization"?

Correctness? Code quality? Performance? Productivity? I'm an EE, I
can understand software development looks like a real mess to some
people, but there are good reasons as to why it is different from
traditional engineering practices.

For example, standardized technology in the normal sense allows
highly optimized modern manufacturing and transport to be applied.
But writing code is more akin to crafting... and it scales
differently.

> [snip]

> I'm returning to program with Autoit and I'm loving but I think
> the tools can further improve and hopefully someone lit as the
> creators of LUA (PUC-RJ Brazil) to implement these facilities in
> SCITE.

Lua, not LUA. SciTE, not SCITE. And I think PUC-Rio, not PUC-RJ.

I would say that I am a skeptic with these kind of auto completion
stuff, but as a list member I welcome the ideas and the discussion
of ideas. All the best to your endeavors...

[Chris Angelico]

The text is being automatically translated from Portuguese, so I think
the capitalization problems come from that transition.

ChrisA

[steve donovan]

On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 6:52 AM, KHMan <kein...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would say that I am a skeptic with these kind of auto completion stuff, but as a list member I welcome the ideas and the discussion of ideas. All the best to your endeavors...

You can get there with abbreviations in SciTE, which is what they are designed to do. For instance, in my abbrev.properties I have these for Lua:

if=if | then\n\
    \n\
end

ife=if | then\n\
    \n\
else\n\
    \n\
end

f=function | ()\n\
    \n\
end

lf=local function | ()\n\
    \n\
end

So I just have to type lf followed by ctrl-B to get a local function definition. (The '|' is where the cursor will be after the expansion)

SciTE's abbreviations are smart enough to use local indentation.

steve d.

[Odaylton Junior- BR]

I finally see a light at the end of the tunnel.

I think it will serve as a first step.

I will do my tests and if I run into something I return to contact

Thanks SteveD for objectivity in dealing with the matter because tastes aside, the important thing is to evolve and overcome old habits

PS: I think the "Tools" menu there should be an external editor of abbreviations or it already exists? For thus it could be used with beginners and also form a list of standard abbreviations for each language.

[Odaylton Junior- BR]

Thanks for the defense, but what matters is to improve the techniques and evolve.

We can not leave the focus of this forum that the alternative is probably an improvement on abbreviations making it the most popular and certainly useful to everyone.

[KHMan]

On 4/25/2013 4:22 PM, Odaylton Junior- BR wrote:
> I finally see a light at the end of the tunnel.
>
> I think it will serve as a first step.
>
> I will do my tests and if I run into something I return to contact
>
> Thanks SteveD for objectivity in dealing with the matter because
> tastes aside, the important thing is to evolve and overcome old habits

He described in detail the feature others have already mentioned.

Let me rephrase my "bigger question" concerns:

(a) We are discussing about new innovations for code editors.

(b) But "super code editors" already exist and are widely used!
They are called IDEs[1] and have tons of very powerful features to
help people code. Which IDEs[2] have you tried?

(c) Instead of considering what SciTE is "missing", why not study
some feature-laden editors that are the IDEs and ponder what else
is missing?

It is not that SciTE is "missing" features, SciTE is meant to be
lean and mean. But IDEs already have those "missing" features, and
some are based on the same edit control as SciTE. It is highly
unlikely SciTE will pile on such features, other free editors/IDEs
have them and this project/community has little resources to throw
around.

Coders who need powerful language-specific coding tools will
naturally use an IDE for that particular language. Autoit being a
niche language does not have an IDE IIRC and hence adapts SciTE,
unlike most mainstream programming languages.

The problem of explicitly helping people to code is the domain of
IDEs. Editors naturally do less. So your focus should appear to be
aimed more towards IDEs, or at least see what they have in order
not to duplicate effort.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_development_environment

[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments

> PS: I think the "Tools" menu there should be an external editor of
> abbreviations or it already exists? For thus it could be used with
> beginners and also form a list of standard abbreviations for each
> language.

[snip snip]

[Odaylton Junior- BR]

Cheers,

Kein-Hong Man (left)

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

 

Sorry but my intention at the entrance of this forum was to be possible to contact the developers more esperientes this editor and I in my holy ignorance make my life easier in the development of Autoit.

 

I'll look for an IDE that suits Autoit but found SciTE exelente yet.

 

I think the abbreviations and autocomplete could be the same tool and I believe that our SciTE will develop into a solid and lightweight IDE.

 

The focus of this forum is not the discussion is "IDE" or "noutepad" is the best to develop programs rather useful tools for this.

 

Thank you for your comments.

[Andreas Tscharner]

On 26.04.2013 03:06, Odaylton Junior- BR wrote:

[snip]

> I'll look for an IDE that suits Autoit but found SciTE exelente yet.

Did you look at geany? It is a general IDE (not bound to a specific
language) and is based on scintilla (the very same edit control SciTE is
based on)

http://www.geany.org

HTH and best regards
Andreas
--
Andreas Tscharner <sterne...@gmail.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Intruder on level one. All Aliens please proceed to level one."
-- Call in "Alien: Resurrection"

[KHMan]

On 4/26/2013 2:59 PM, Andreas Tscharner wrote:
> On 26.04.2013 03:06, Odaylton Junior- BR wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> I'll look for an IDE that suits Autoit but found SciTE exelente
>> yet.
>
> Did you look at geany? It is a general IDE (not bound to a
> specific language) and is based on scintilla (the very same edit
> control SciTE is based on)
>
> http://www.geany.org

Nope, not enabled. It's mostly disabled in Scintilla-based editors
and IDEs because it is a Win32-specific niche app.

HOWEVER, Notepad++ does have it enabled, yay. :-) If Notepad++ has
an abbreviation feature or a plugin, then it would be a more
user-friendly option.

Neither Code::Blocks or CodeLite enables them, though the au3
lexer is definitely in the CodeLite sources. Someone will have to
lobby and code the language support... maybe...

But it seems to me an abbreviation feature is not really a
priority for IDEs, while features like navigation and information
lookup are more important where coders work on significant amounts
of code. I guess abbreviation may not be a mainstream feature in
editors/IDEs.

When using Autoit's relative, Autohotkey, once in a while, I skim
the CHM file to refresh my memory and cut-and-paste where
possible. But of course, I speak only for myself :-p and I needed
only short scripts.

For really long programs, perhaps a modern BASIC implementation is
better, or at least something with a debugger etc...

[Philippe Lhoste]

SciTE has a powerful advantage: it can be scripted (with Lua).
With lot of time and patience, one can make an IDE (or something closer of an IDE than of
a simple editor) out of it.
I once made a Lua script to analyze an AutoHotkey program to list all the methods. Not an
easy task, given the quirks of the syntax, but I managed to do it.
With a set of similar scripts, you can make a decent enhanced support of any language.
But of course, you have to learn Lua first!

--
Philippe Lhoste
-- (near) Paris -- France
-- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --