Kaliedescope Eyes
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CHARLES KENNEDY
May 11, 2009, 8:48:27 PM5/11/09
to scintillat...@googlegroups.com
To all,
I seem to experience the scintillating-scotoma about once every three months. I think stress and bright lights are my triggers. I don't have migraines after them. I usually notice blurry spots in my certral field of vision then what looks like an arc that eventually becomes a backwards C that is a discontinuity in my vision. The backwards C then develops into what appears to be standing triangular waves that are flipping back and forth. After a while, it intensifies and looks like parallel standing triangular waves. The whole thing resolves within about an hour. Some are so intense, that I drop everything I am doing to just watch. I do also notice I become irritable around the same time and the irritability lasts for several days (sometimes I become irritable before the SS). I try to not let the aura upset me. I am grateful that it resolves itself. I think of them as Kaliedescope Eyes.
There are some interesting articles on the Internet about Cortical Spreading Depression which shows some ways that SS can be triggered and ways it can be inhibited. I think the main ways they try to inhibit it is using neurontin, selective seritonin reuptake inhibitors (like Prozac), imitrex (antimigraine medicine). What is also interesting is glutamate and aspartate seem to be involved--I think MSG has glutamate and artificial sweetners have a compound like aspartate. Also other ions like potassium, sodium, and others are involved.
I will continue to search to see if this leads to anything worse than a light show but I haven't seen anything that would alarm me. I do know that auras like this can be associated with retinal detachments so I did have my eyes checked. I alsa had Central Serous Retinapothy in my left eye which is like macular degeneration (a blood vessels burst behind my left eye's macula).
Thanks for the Group! This has helped me understand what is going on and I know I am not alone.
Charlie
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I seem to experience the scintillating-scotoma about once every three months. I think stress and bright lights are my triggers. I don't have migraines after them. I usually notice blurry spots in my certral field of vision then what looks like an arc that eventually becomes a backwards C that is a discontinuity in my vision. The backwards C then develops into what appears to be standing triangular waves that are flipping back and forth. After a while, it intensifies and looks like parallel standing triangular waves. The whole thing resolves within about an hour. Some are so intense, that I drop everything I am doing to just watch. I do also notice I become irritable around the same time and the irritability lasts for several days (sometimes I become irritable before the SS). I try to not let the aura upset me. I am grateful that it resolves itself. I think of them as Kaliedescope Eyes.
There are some interesting articles on the Internet about Cortical Spreading Depression which shows some ways that SS can be triggered and ways it can be inhibited. I think the main ways they try to inhibit it is using neurontin, selective seritonin reuptake inhibitors (like Prozac), imitrex (antimigraine medicine). What is also interesting is glutamate and aspartate seem to be involved--I think MSG has glutamate and artificial sweetners have a compound like aspartate. Also other ions like potassium, sodium, and others are involved.
I will continue to search to see if this leads to anything worse than a light show but I haven't seen anything that would alarm me. I do know that auras like this can be associated with retinal detachments so I did have my eyes checked. I alsa had Central Serous Retinapothy in my left eye which is like macular degeneration (a blood vessels burst behind my left eye's macula).
Thanks for the Group! This has helped me understand what is going on and I know I am not alone.
Charlie
Hotmail® goes with you. Get it on your BlackBerry or iPhone.
Kevin
May 11, 2009, 9:21:11 PM5/11/09
to Scintillating Scotoma
Those are great observations Charles.
I've been trying to figure out what specifically triggers mine
although I'm pretty sure specific foods don't bother me like that.
Stress, fatigue and skipping a meal seem to get me ready for one, then
an emotional upset seems to set it off. Or is getting upset a symptom?
One other thing I wonder if others have... I don't get a headache, but
I do get a wicked sore neck and shoulder(s) after an SS. Sometimes the
neck pain lasts for days. Does anyone else have this as a symptom?
> _________________________________________________________________
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I've been trying to figure out what specifically triggers mine
although I'm pretty sure specific foods don't bother me like that.
Stress, fatigue and skipping a meal seem to get me ready for one, then
an emotional upset seems to set it off. Or is getting upset a symptom?
One other thing I wonder if others have... I don't get a headache, but
I do get a wicked sore neck and shoulder(s) after an SS. Sometimes the
neck pain lasts for days. Does anyone else have this as a symptom?
> Hotmail® goes with you.http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_T...
capeb...@comcast.net
Jun 3, 2009, 12:00:30 PM6/3/09
to Scintillating Scotoma
Hi, fellow scintillators, I've been having SSs (thanks for the
abbreviation) without any accompanying symptom or malfunction for
almost 50 years, and have tried to find something that sets them off,
so far in vain. We just have to realize the enormous diversity of
human beings and the ways our brains work, despite strong
similarities. I have a splendid family doctor, a highly intelligent
and observant man, who suggested that Naproxen tends to inhibit them.
I took it as an antinflammatory for other reasons (arthritis) for
years, during which time the incidence went down from an average of
once in 4-6 weeks to about one a year. Then he decided that my
somewhat challenged kidneys would be better off if i went off naproxen
and just took acetaminophen (Tylenol) instead. Immediately, I had a
week in which I had SS almost every day! They diminished quickly, now
back to the old pre-naproxen frequency.
Recently, I had a new phenomenon, of which my doctor had never heard.
The desire to share it and see if anyone else knows of it caused me to
find this group. A few months ago, early in the afternoon, I underwent
a medical procedure, a medial branch radiofrequency ablation, in a
fairly successful to get rid of chronic low-level pain in my right
hip. Since the successful replacement of that hip joint, almost three
years ago, I have been bothered by what seems like phantom pain--that
is, it feels as if it is in the joint, which now has no nerves and is
made of steel & plastic. My physiatrist suggested the ablation and we
tried it first 18 mos. ago, with only fleeting (placebo?) relief. The
doc. puts a thin needle into the lower back near the backbone, guided
by xray; when he thinks the tip is at the nerve coming from the hip
which is dedicated to bringing pain sensation, he injects novocaine.
You then get up, walk about, and see if it helps. It seemed to; so
on another day he repeated the procedure, this time with a needle with
a tiny microwave oven at its tip! That is, it generates microwaves,
which produce heat, long enough to cook a section of the pain nerve,
which supposedly kills it. Since it is practically impossible to see
nerves via xray, it's a wonder that it sometimes works; when the
relief the first time proved fleeting, he proposed trying it again on
May 12. This time it did succeed; I can now do things that were too
painful before like stand on my right leg alone. Incidentally, both
times, I had a quick and uneventful recovery from the ablation, no
pain and no need for any medication.
Sorry for the long digression, but it does seem relevant. For, that
evening (after the repeat operation) I had a SS, which could have
been a coincidence, but it was an extraordinary one. After a few
minutes, when the fortification pattern became visible as a C on the
left side of foveal vision (my SS never seriously interferes with
reading, though it is distracting!), there was something I had never
seen before: a little red spot inside the pattern at 1 o'clock
position. As usual, the whole thing grew in size and moved to the
periphery, but the spot quickly took on the shape of an almost
perfect square! It did not scintillate; 3 of the sides were perfect
straight lines and the corners were perfect right angles, but the 4th
(inner, lower) angle was vague. With eyes open it tended to look blue-
green; with eyes closed, bright red, acting in that way like an
afterimage though it was clearly not; the golden part kept the same
color. The whole pattern continued the usual course, enlarging--the
square along with it--and moved off to the left where it finally
disappeared.
But then an hour or so later, starting about 10:50 PM, I had a second
SS, this time on the right and a reverse C, the red spot in the same
place, but this time not square or sharp but more of a diffuse blob
now accompanied by a bright red thin lining of the whole inner concave
surface. By 11 PM, it was astonishingly brilliant, but soon faded as
it expanded and moved off. The golden scintillating part's C shape
began to break up, with only a hint of the red as it moved out of the
visual field.
I suppose that my use of technical language gives away the fact that I
am a retired (age 91) research psychologist. Amusingly, I had my
first experience of SS while I was doing library research on
subjective visual phenomena for what was to be my presidential address
to the division of clinical psychology of the American Psychological
Association (later [1964, in The American Psychologist] published as
Imagery: The Return of the Ostracized). It was shortly after the
death of my mentor David Rapaport, a distinguished psychoanalytic
psychologist who had told me about his own SS experiences, which is
how I learned of them. Being a still pretty orthodox Freudian at the
time, I put my own SS down to identification with the lost father
figure! It also happens that one of my teachers in graduate school,
Karl Lashley, wrote one of the definitive papers on SS, from which I
learned the term 'fortification pattern' for the zig-zags.
I hope that other members of the group will join in and tell about it
if they have experienced anything like my red square.
Bob Holt
Truro, MA
abbreviation) without any accompanying symptom or malfunction for
almost 50 years, and have tried to find something that sets them off,
so far in vain. We just have to realize the enormous diversity of
human beings and the ways our brains work, despite strong
similarities. I have a splendid family doctor, a highly intelligent
and observant man, who suggested that Naproxen tends to inhibit them.
I took it as an antinflammatory for other reasons (arthritis) for
years, during which time the incidence went down from an average of
once in 4-6 weeks to about one a year. Then he decided that my
somewhat challenged kidneys would be better off if i went off naproxen
and just took acetaminophen (Tylenol) instead. Immediately, I had a
week in which I had SS almost every day! They diminished quickly, now
back to the old pre-naproxen frequency.
Recently, I had a new phenomenon, of which my doctor had never heard.
The desire to share it and see if anyone else knows of it caused me to
find this group. A few months ago, early in the afternoon, I underwent
a medical procedure, a medial branch radiofrequency ablation, in a
fairly successful to get rid of chronic low-level pain in my right
hip. Since the successful replacement of that hip joint, almost three
years ago, I have been bothered by what seems like phantom pain--that
is, it feels as if it is in the joint, which now has no nerves and is
made of steel & plastic. My physiatrist suggested the ablation and we
tried it first 18 mos. ago, with only fleeting (placebo?) relief. The
doc. puts a thin needle into the lower back near the backbone, guided
by xray; when he thinks the tip is at the nerve coming from the hip
which is dedicated to bringing pain sensation, he injects novocaine.
You then get up, walk about, and see if it helps. It seemed to; so
on another day he repeated the procedure, this time with a needle with
a tiny microwave oven at its tip! That is, it generates microwaves,
which produce heat, long enough to cook a section of the pain nerve,
which supposedly kills it. Since it is practically impossible to see
nerves via xray, it's a wonder that it sometimes works; when the
relief the first time proved fleeting, he proposed trying it again on
May 12. This time it did succeed; I can now do things that were too
painful before like stand on my right leg alone. Incidentally, both
times, I had a quick and uneventful recovery from the ablation, no
pain and no need for any medication.
Sorry for the long digression, but it does seem relevant. For, that
evening (after the repeat operation) I had a SS, which could have
been a coincidence, but it was an extraordinary one. After a few
minutes, when the fortification pattern became visible as a C on the
left side of foveal vision (my SS never seriously interferes with
reading, though it is distracting!), there was something I had never
seen before: a little red spot inside the pattern at 1 o'clock
position. As usual, the whole thing grew in size and moved to the
periphery, but the spot quickly took on the shape of an almost
perfect square! It did not scintillate; 3 of the sides were perfect
straight lines and the corners were perfect right angles, but the 4th
(inner, lower) angle was vague. With eyes open it tended to look blue-
green; with eyes closed, bright red, acting in that way like an
afterimage though it was clearly not; the golden part kept the same
color. The whole pattern continued the usual course, enlarging--the
square along with it--and moved off to the left where it finally
disappeared.
But then an hour or so later, starting about 10:50 PM, I had a second
SS, this time on the right and a reverse C, the red spot in the same
place, but this time not square or sharp but more of a diffuse blob
now accompanied by a bright red thin lining of the whole inner concave
surface. By 11 PM, it was astonishingly brilliant, but soon faded as
it expanded and moved off. The golden scintillating part's C shape
began to break up, with only a hint of the red as it moved out of the
visual field.
I suppose that my use of technical language gives away the fact that I
am a retired (age 91) research psychologist. Amusingly, I had my
first experience of SS while I was doing library research on
subjective visual phenomena for what was to be my presidential address
to the division of clinical psychology of the American Psychological
Association (later [1964, in The American Psychologist] published as
Imagery: The Return of the Ostracized). It was shortly after the
death of my mentor David Rapaport, a distinguished psychoanalytic
psychologist who had told me about his own SS experiences, which is
how I learned of them. Being a still pretty orthodox Freudian at the
time, I put my own SS down to identification with the lost father
figure! It also happens that one of my teachers in graduate school,
Karl Lashley, wrote one of the definitive papers on SS, from which I
learned the term 'fortification pattern' for the zig-zags.
I hope that other members of the group will join in and tell about it
if they have experienced anything like my red square.
Bob Holt
Truro, MA
Kevin
Jun 8, 2009, 10:41:52 PM6/8/09
to Scintillating Scotoma
Hi Charlie,
You reported several CSD waves in both visual cortex hemispheres in a
short time period. Something was seriously triggering potassium (or
glutamate?) dumps in your visual cortex that day.
Let me post this hypothesis...
The red square shaped object was a second CSD wave in the same
hemisphere following the first in rapid succession.
So rapid in fact that the neurons of your visual cortex had not
recovered enough to render the detail needed to construct the classic
60 degree triangle pattern or the yellow and blue parts of the spectra
usually present. In fact there was only enough data to generate a very
simple geometric shape.
The scotoma is not only about suppressing light gathering data from
the eyes. I've found out very recently about structures in V1 and V2
responsible for organizing shape recognition, size relationships,
relative speed and direction etc. This discovered after personally
suffering some pretty scary hallucinations along those lines during an
SS.
I believe that the "geometric patterns of the scintilla are constructs
made from the curvilinear shapes in the cortical gyrs and zebra
distribution of neurons in the cortex. Our mind is literally
"connecting the dots" into geometric patterns as the CSD wave burns
through the cortex. On a second wave, there are fewer dots.
disclaimer: I know nothing about psychology, my field is research of
video acquisition, encryption, compression and display technologies.
However, I'm fascinated by the parallels between the human visual
system and a good video encoder.
You reported several CSD waves in both visual cortex hemispheres in a
short time period. Something was seriously triggering potassium (or
glutamate?) dumps in your visual cortex that day.
Let me post this hypothesis...
The red square shaped object was a second CSD wave in the same
hemisphere following the first in rapid succession.
So rapid in fact that the neurons of your visual cortex had not
recovered enough to render the detail needed to construct the classic
60 degree triangle pattern or the yellow and blue parts of the spectra
usually present. In fact there was only enough data to generate a very
simple geometric shape.
The scotoma is not only about suppressing light gathering data from
the eyes. I've found out very recently about structures in V1 and V2
responsible for organizing shape recognition, size relationships,
relative speed and direction etc. This discovered after personally
suffering some pretty scary hallucinations along those lines during an
SS.
I believe that the "geometric patterns of the scintilla are constructs
made from the curvilinear shapes in the cortical gyrs and zebra
distribution of neurons in the cortex. Our mind is literally
"connecting the dots" into geometric patterns as the CSD wave burns
through the cortex. On a second wave, there are fewer dots.
disclaimer: I know nothing about psychology, my field is research of
video acquisition, encryption, compression and display technologies.
However, I'm fascinated by the parallels between the human visual
system and a good video encoder.
JelloPat
Jun 9, 2009, 4:00:00 PM6/9/09
to Scintillating Scotoma
Kevin, Charlie -
I have been following the wonderful research trail that Kevin has been
turning up - and I noted something in one of the technical articles:
"Normoxic SD can be triggered by high-frequency electrical pulses
("tetanic" stimulation) " - this in addition to the list of possible
chemical triggers such as Potassium ions and glutemates), and DC
pulses aka "Galvanic" stimulation.
I wonder more and more if our SS displays are triggered not so much
from chemical vectors as from inbound transmissions, most likely from
the ever-growing amount of electronic transmission equipment we have
surrounded ourselves with.
Kevin appears way ahead of me on research - can you refute, or further
speculate? I am also fairly convinced that for some or all of us, at
least some of the time, the trigger is purely chemical/diet related,
but I wonder... in any case, the experience is such that one strongly
intuits the existence of a trigger of some sort...
- Pat
> ...
>
> read more »
I have been following the wonderful research trail that Kevin has been
turning up - and I noted something in one of the technical articles:
"Normoxic SD can be triggered by high-frequency electrical pulses
("tetanic" stimulation) " - this in addition to the list of possible
chemical triggers such as Potassium ions and glutemates), and DC
pulses aka "Galvanic" stimulation.
I wonder more and more if our SS displays are triggered not so much
from chemical vectors as from inbound transmissions, most likely from
the ever-growing amount of electronic transmission equipment we have
surrounded ourselves with.
Kevin appears way ahead of me on research - can you refute, or further
speculate? I am also fairly convinced that for some or all of us, at
least some of the time, the trigger is purely chemical/diet related,
but I wonder... in any case, the experience is such that one strongly
intuits the existence of a trigger of some sort...
- Pat
>
> read more »
Kevin
Jun 10, 2009, 1:12:08 PM6/10/09
to Scintillating Scotoma
Does "normoxic" refer to a non-hypoxic SD?
That is the one we recover from vs the "light at heaven's gate" HSD?
I often have to closely examine glowing LCD and plasma monitors while
they display all sorts of torturous, no doubt, seizure inducing test
patterns and signals. Sometimes I get eye strain, but I can't recall a
CSD wave being triggered by this stimulation.
There seems to be a lot of debate regarding the specific cause of
CSD's in the cortex.
They tend to center around vascular vs neuroligical causes. I don't
see why they can't be both.
There are various methods of triggering CSDs artificially in lab
animals. Ranging from a drop of capsacium (hot chile sauce) to
specific wavelength electrical signals.
Personally, I think there are several factors that give me a
disposition to CSD events.
1. In the mid twenties, gray matter developement runs against space
limitations and halts. Leaving minimal interstitial space. This
happens to be when many acephalgic migraineurs start to report their
first episodes.
2. I've read where persons with a family history of migraine and
epilepsy have a genetic issue creating an enzyme that helps clean up
post synaptic neurotransmitters. (in that very small intercranial
space) (I'll have to relocate that reference)
3. Age related vascular impairments seem to increase the frequency of
these episodes. The onset of middle age, the start of heart-rate
limiting beta blockers and the recent increase in dosage seem to
coincide with increases in frequency and severity of my CSDs. Blood
supply is integral to cleanup of postsynaptic neurotransmitters (as
well as recovery after a CSD).
4. High levels of activity, stress, lack of sleep, and ingestion of
nuerotransmitter chemicals like glutamate result in a buildup of
active neurotransmitters in and around the cortex cells (neurons and
especially glial cells). Coupled with the impaired cleanup mechanisms
described above, the migrainer's brain is like an overgrown woodland
on a dry hot summer day just waiting for a spark to set it off.
What sets it off? I'd say in my case it's a warm shower! No really,
it's the relaxation period after a stress. Either physical or
emotional that seems to trigger the CSD wave.
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
That is the one we recover from vs the "light at heaven's gate" HSD?
I often have to closely examine glowing LCD and plasma monitors while
they display all sorts of torturous, no doubt, seizure inducing test
patterns and signals. Sometimes I get eye strain, but I can't recall a
CSD wave being triggered by this stimulation.
There seems to be a lot of debate regarding the specific cause of
CSD's in the cortex.
They tend to center around vascular vs neuroligical causes. I don't
see why they can't be both.
There are various methods of triggering CSDs artificially in lab
animals. Ranging from a drop of capsacium (hot chile sauce) to
specific wavelength electrical signals.
Personally, I think there are several factors that give me a
disposition to CSD events.
1. In the mid twenties, gray matter developement runs against space
limitations and halts. Leaving minimal interstitial space. This
happens to be when many acephalgic migraineurs start to report their
first episodes.
2. I've read where persons with a family history of migraine and
epilepsy have a genetic issue creating an enzyme that helps clean up
post synaptic neurotransmitters. (in that very small intercranial
space) (I'll have to relocate that reference)
3. Age related vascular impairments seem to increase the frequency of
these episodes. The onset of middle age, the start of heart-rate
limiting beta blockers and the recent increase in dosage seem to
coincide with increases in frequency and severity of my CSDs. Blood
supply is integral to cleanup of postsynaptic neurotransmitters (as
well as recovery after a CSD).
4. High levels of activity, stress, lack of sleep, and ingestion of
nuerotransmitter chemicals like glutamate result in a buildup of
active neurotransmitters in and around the cortex cells (neurons and
especially glial cells). Coupled with the impaired cleanup mechanisms
described above, the migrainer's brain is like an overgrown woodland
on a dry hot summer day just waiting for a spark to set it off.
What sets it off? I'd say in my case it's a warm shower! No really,
it's the relaxation period after a stress. Either physical or
emotional that seems to trigger the CSD wave.
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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