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First on the Moon: The Untold Story
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GordonD
Aug 6, 2012, 4:37:56 PM8/6/12
to
Just watched the above documentary, which I assumed was from 2 - 3 years ago
but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a somewhat
sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing on the problems
encountered during the mission (the program alarms during descent, the
delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and the breaking of the ascent
engine arm switch) though they also threw in the sighting of the SLA panel.
The impression that came across was that it was more by luck than anything
else that the flight was a success.
However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked because
in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to go into operation,
whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in only half a second. The
person who said this was David Baker, author of several books on the space
programme, who could in no way be described as a kook. Was he right on this
occasion, and if so why hasn't more been made of it?
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."
but the copyright date at the end was 2005. It was a somewhat
sensationalised account of the Apollo 11 flight, focusing on the problems
encountered during the mission (the program alarms during descent, the
delayed landing leading to low fuel levels and the breaking of the ascent
engine arm switch) though they also threw in the sighting of the SLA panel.
The impression that came across was that it was more by luck than anything
else that the flight was a success.
However at one point they stated that the LES wouldn't have worked because
in the event of an emergency it would take two seconds to go into operation,
whereas the Saturn V would be a big fireball in only half a second. The
person who said this was David Baker, author of several books on the space
programme, who could in no way be described as a kook. Was he right on this
occasion, and if so why hasn't more been made of it?
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."
Ken S. Tucker
Aug 6, 2012, 10:52:26 PM8/6/12
to
I'll hypothesize that the effectiveness of the LES depends on the nature
of the anomaly. If a small fire begins the LES would be a lifesaver
prior to a catastrophe, IIRC the Ruskies used the system once
successfully. I think you are right about that part of the documentary
as being sensational.
Ken
GordonD
Aug 7, 2012, 5:24:53 AM8/7/12
to
"Ken S. Tucker" <dyna...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:jvpvtb$hfq$1...@dont-email.me...
Yes, Soyuz T-10, in an off-pad abort when the launch vehicle caught fire.
Accounts say it took several seconds for the escape system to be triggered.
The earlier abort on Soyuz 18 didn't involve the LES as it was later in the
launch phase, after it had been jettisoned.
> I think you are right about that part of the documentary as being
> sensational.
The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent engine arm
switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in reality it was
spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply decided that was
something they'd have to fix later. There was certainly no panic - I don't
think *anything* would cause Armstrong to panic!
news:jvpvtb$hfq$1...@dont-email.me...
Accounts say it took several seconds for the escape system to be triggered.
The earlier abort on Soyuz 18 didn't involve the LES as it was later in the
launch phase, after it had been jettisoned.
> I think you are right about that part of the documentary as being
> sensational.
switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in reality it was
spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply decided that was
something they'd have to fix later. There was certainly no panic - I don't
think *anything* would cause Armstrong to panic!
Ken S. Tucker
Aug 7, 2012, 10:25:41 AM8/7/12
to
landing location they were trained for, and in turn had a narrowing
margin of time to land, and a defunct radar altimeter, but there's
no question that landing was harrowing. They had the Sun on their
backs and were able to use the LM shadow as an altimeter.
That seems well done in the documentary.
Ken
Greg (Strider) Moore
Aug 7, 2012, 11:40:55 AM8/7/12
to
>"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message news:jvr8h7$q4v$1...@dont-email.me...
than they thought and wanted a clearer area to land.
As for the broken switch. I recall an interview with Armstrong where he was
asked what he would do if the ascent engine didn't fire and they only had 2
hours of O2 left. It was clear the interviewer was looking for some sort of
philosophical answer. Armstrong's answer was far more pragmatic and was
along the lines of "I'd spend the next 2 hours trying to fix it."
--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net
Val Kraut
Aug 8, 2012, 12:10:58 AM8/8/12
to
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:24:53 +0100, "GordonD" <g.d...@btinternet.com>
wrote:
>The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent engine arm
>switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in reality it was
>spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply decided that was
>something they'd have to fix later. There was certainly no panic - I don't
>think *anything* would cause Armstrong to panic!
I was working on the program at the time. The engine arm breaker was
accidently damaged by being hit by one of the crew members donning or
removing his PLSS. It was mechanical damage - but they could use their
pen to push the breaker in. The problem was once in they may not be
able to turn it off. This breaker provided power to the engine firing
circuit. With it off the LM computers could not fire the engine as a
result of a computer malfunction.
However there were otherways to provide power to the engine solenoids
- the Abort/abort stage button command had a backup arming path. There
were various versions of what the astronauts actually did - but
pressing the abort/abort stage button and the engine on button at the
time the guidance computer was to issue the engine fire command both
would have enabled the engine to fire, along with the breaker puched
in with the pen..
Remember LM was designed with many backup modes to assure success.
Supposidly Armstrong had a restless night - the engineers on the
ground knew the procedures would work.
Val Kraut
wrote:
>The whole thing came across that way. The problem with the ascent engine arm
>switch was portrayed as a real horror story, whereas in reality it was
>spotted before the moonwalk and the astronauts simply decided that was
>something they'd have to fix later. There was certainly no panic - I don't
>think *anything* would cause Armstrong to panic!
accidently damaged by being hit by one of the crew members donning or
removing his PLSS. It was mechanical damage - but they could use their
pen to push the breaker in. The problem was once in they may not be
able to turn it off. This breaker provided power to the engine firing
circuit. With it off the LM computers could not fire the engine as a
result of a computer malfunction.
However there were otherways to provide power to the engine solenoids
- the Abort/abort stage button command had a backup arming path. There
were various versions of what the astronauts actually did - but
pressing the abort/abort stage button and the engine on button at the
time the guidance computer was to issue the engine fire command both
would have enabled the engine to fire, along with the breaker puched
in with the pen..
Remember LM was designed with many backup modes to assure success.
Supposidly Armstrong had a restless night - the engineers on the
ground knew the procedures would work.
Val Kraut
Ken S. Tucker
Aug 8, 2012, 10:13:07 AM8/8/12
to
"As the descent began, Armstrong and Aldrin found that they were passing
landmarks on the surface 4 seconds early and reported that they were
"long": they would land miles west of their target point."
You might find a better ref.
It was that 4 seconds that nearly mucked things up. After the landing
it was never mentioned much.
Ken
Greg (Strider) Moore
Aug 9, 2012, 12:22:37 AM8/9/12
to
>"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message news:jvts5k$cld$1...@dont-email.me...
>You might find a better ref.
>It was that 4 seconds that nearly mucked things up. After the landing
>it was never mentioned much.
sources to confirm.
Thanks.
>Ken
Me
Aug 9, 2012, 8:24:46 AM8/9/12
to
On Aug 8, 10:13 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:
>
> >> "Ken S. Tucker" wrote in messagenews:jvr8h7$q4v$1...@dont-email.me...
> Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:
>
>
> >> GordonD wrote:
> >>> "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
after undocking
Ken S. Tucker
Aug 9, 2012, 6:05:58 PM8/9/12
to
causes an over shoot of 4 miles unless the ascent parabola is varied.
Not sure what you mean by a delta V (acceleration) induced AFTER
undocking as they were in freefall after undock, do you mean the
undock itself added the uncorrected delta V?
If you have a net ref, I'd appreciate reading about it.
Thanks though,
Ken
David Spain
Aug 9, 2012, 11:53:47 PM8/9/12
to
they were looking for sensational, they should have looked into that one, would have taken a lot less creative writing...
Dave
Ken S. Tucker
Aug 10, 2012, 12:33:11 AM8/10/12
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http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/2009-06/40-years-later-ten-things-you-didnt-know-about-apollo-ii-moon-landing
"When Apollo 11�s lunar lander, the Eagle, separated from the orbiter,
the cabin wasn�t fully depressurized, resulting in a burst of gas
equivalent to popping a champagne cork. It threw the module�s landing
four miles off-target."
Ken
Rick Jones
Aug 10, 2012, 1:54:27 PM8/10/12
to
Ken S. Tucker <dyna...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/2009-06/40-years-later-ten-things-you-didnt-know-about-apollo-ii-moon-landing
> "When Apollo 11’s lunar lander, the Eagle, separated from the orbiter,
> the cabin wasn’t fully depressurized, resulting in a burst of gas
> equivalent to popping a champagne cork. It threw the module’s landing
> four miles off-target."
10. The inner bladder of the space suits—the airtight liner that
keeps the astronaut’s body under Earth-like pressure—and the
ship’s computer’s ROM chips were handmade by teams of “little
old ladies.”
OK, so it is PopSci but still - "ROM chips???" I assume that was
trying to refer to hand-wired core memory?
rick jones
--
firebug n, the idiot who tosses a lit cigarette out his car window
these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)
feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
> http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/2009-06/40-years-later-ten-things-you-didnt-know-about-apollo-ii-moon-landing
> "When Apollo 11’s lunar lander, the Eagle, separated from the orbiter,
> the cabin wasn’t fully depressurized, resulting in a burst of gas
> equivalent to popping a champagne cork. It threw the module’s landing
> four miles off-target."
10. The inner bladder of the space suits—the airtight liner that
keeps the astronaut’s body under Earth-like pressure—and the
ship’s computer’s ROM chips were handmade by teams of “little
old ladies.”
OK, so it is PopSci but still - "ROM chips???" I assume that was
trying to refer to hand-wired core memory?
rick jones
--
firebug n, the idiot who tosses a lit cigarette out his car window
these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)
feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
Obviousman
Aug 18, 2012, 11:51:54 PM8/18/12
to
On 11/08/2012 03:54, Rick Jones wrote:
> Ken S. Tucker <dyna...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/2009-06/40-years-later-ten-things-you-didnt-know-about-apollo-ii-moon-landing
>
>> "When Apollo 11’s lunar lander, the Eagle, separated from the orbiter,
>> the cabin wasn’t fully depressurized, resulting in a burst of gas
>> equivalent to popping a champagne cork. It threw the module’s landing
>> four miles off-target."
>
> 10. The inner bladder of the space suits—the airtight liner that
> keeps the astronaut’s body under Earth-like pressure—and the
> ship’s computer’s ROM chips were handmade by teams of “little
> old ladies.”
>
> OK, so it is PopSci but still - "ROM chips???" I assume that was
> trying to refer to hand-wired core memory?
>
> rick jones
>
Correct, it was the rope core memory.
> Ken S. Tucker <dyna...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/2009-06/40-years-later-ten-things-you-didnt-know-about-apollo-ii-moon-landing
>
>> "When Apollo 11’s lunar lander, the Eagle, separated from the orbiter,
>> the cabin wasn’t fully depressurized, resulting in a burst of gas
>> equivalent to popping a champagne cork. It threw the module’s landing
>> four miles off-target."
>
> 10. The inner bladder of the space suits—the airtight liner that
> keeps the astronaut’s body under Earth-like pressure—and the
> ship’s computer’s ROM chips were handmade by teams of “little
> old ladies.”
>
> OK, so it is PopSci but still - "ROM chips???" I assume that was
> trying to refer to hand-wired core memory?
>
> rick jones
>
b0bmo...@gmail.com
Nov 12, 2012, 3:33:29 AM11/12/12
to
On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:10:58 PM UTC-5, Val Kraut wrote:
> Remember LM was designed with many backup modes to assure success.
> Supposidly Armstrong had a restless night - the engineers on the
> ground knew the procedures would work.
...And then there's the final alternative: pop the panel off, flip the breaker with the pen, launch, and once the AM reached orbit, clip the wires to the breaker. Barring the lack of a pen, clip the wires, strip the insulation - with teeth if necessary - twist the wires together, launch, orbit, clip, dock, return home.
> Remember LM was designed with many backup modes to assure success.
> Supposidly Armstrong had a restless night - the engineers on the
> ground knew the procedures would work.
In polite circles, we called this "Romulan Engineering". :)
OM
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