> ... whether this had anything to do with K-Fed or Paris Hilton.
Here's a photo of the crater: http://www.guardian.co.uk/space/article/0,,2171920,00.html It does indeed appear to have water in it, with what might be bubbles on the surface. You take me to meteor impact where "chunks of silver" may contaminate the soil, and I'll do the clean-up free of charge. :-) Space debris with hypergolics onboard would meet the criteria for the metal and sickening odor, but to make a hole that big would take a booster stage; anybody had a failed launch of late? " 'None of the meteorites that fall in Peru and make perforations of varied sizes are harmful for people, unless they fall on a house,' he said. Another meteorite fell to Earth in Arequipa province in June." Peru got a meteor magnet in it or something? Sooner or later a diver is bound to go into the hole...he'll be the first ones the Martians suck the blood out of before the war machines begin to emerge. ;-)
> Space debris with hypergolics onboard would meet the criteria for the > metal and sickening odor, but to make a hole that big would take a > booster stage; anybody had a failed launch of late?
On Sep 18, 12:01 pm, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:
> Pat Flannery wrote:
> > Space debris with hypergolics onboard would meet the criteria for the > > metal and sickening odor, but to make a hole that big would take a > > booster stage; anybody had a failed launch of late?
At first I was going to title the post "The Andromeda Strain?" but I like Fleet Street Rag rhyming for oddball stories. You know, like this: http://www.findaceleb.com/girls/p/piper-billie/000023.jpg That's downright Shakespearian. A masterpiece! Ah, if they just had let me do a Walter Winchell style radio program for Pravda: "Good morning, Mr. and Mrs. Moscow, all the Soviets at sea! Flash!" ;-) The one that was freakishly close to The Andromeda Strain's "Scoop" mission was when the NASA Genesis solar wind sample return mission hit the desert floor without the parachutes opening. I still think that The Andromeda Strain and Contact were two of the most imaginative sci-fi films ever done. And they were real sci-fi as opposed to fantasy; the things they showed, though very unlikely*, weren't impossible. This story should be fun to keep up on. I still think that the odds are that this is a piece of space debris rather than a meteorite.
* I sure hope that's the case in regards to The Andromeda Strain.
> At first I was going to title the post "The Andromeda Strain?" but I > like Fleet Street Rag rhyming for oddball stories. > You know, like this:http://www.findaceleb.com/girls/p/piper-billie/000023.jpg > That's downright Shakespearian. A masterpiece! > Ah, if they just had let me do a Walter Winchell style radio program > for Pravda: > "Good morning, Mr. and Mrs. Moscow, all the Soviets at sea! Flash!" ;-) > The one that was freakishly close to The Andromeda Strain's "Scoop" > mission was when the NASA Genesis solar wind sample return mission hit > the desert floor without the parachutes opening. > I still think that The Andromeda Strain and Contact were two of the most > imaginative sci-fi films ever done. > And they were real sci-fi as opposed to fantasy; the things they showed, > though very unlikely*, weren't impossible. > This story should be fun to keep up on. > I still think that the odds are that this is a piece of space debris > rather than a meteorite.
> * I sure hope that's the case in regards to The Andromeda Strain.
> Pat
If it were space debris would it have hit with that much energy? I don't think I've seen that much energy ever for space debris. (Except maybe that great clip of that V2 whistling in straight down near its launch pad and that perfectly V shaped explosion plume. Tho' I think that might have still been powered.)...............Doc
Dr.Colon.Osc...@gmail.com wrote: > If it were space debris would it have hit with that much energy? I > don't think I've seen that much energy ever for space debris. (Except > maybe that great clip of that V2 whistling in straight down near its > launch pad and that perfectly V shaped explosion plume. Tho' I think > that might have still been powered.)...............Doc
I never could figure out if the V-2 was generating thrust on the way down or not. There is something coming out of the back, but it's hard to tell if it's exhaust. I'm pretty sure it had a live warhead on it though from the size of the blast when it hits. The Luftwaffe were very PO'd about that incident though as it came down on their test airfield at Peenemunde and severely damaged some of their test He-111Z glider tug aircraft. Based on the recent Dneper failure that blew a hole in the Kazakhstan desert when the fully fueled upper stage stage hit, a rocket stage with hydrazine on a ballistic trajectory would make a hole like this...but whose rocket would it be? The launch site would almost have to be in South America somewhere. Is Peru shooting off Scud missiles? There were reports in 1995-1996 that they had acquirred Scud B's: http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/misc/sws_sc... "Unconfirmed reports in 1995 and 1996 have suggested that `Scud B' missiles may have been purchased by Armenia, Ecuador, Pakistan, Peru and Democratic Republic of the Congo; but these might have been built in the former Soviet Union or elsewhere."
> "Unconfirmed reports in 1995 and 1996 have suggested that `Scud B' > missiles may have been purchased by Armenia, Ecuador, Pakistan, Peru > and Democratic Republic of the Congo; but these might have been built > in the former Soviet Union or elsewhere."
Here we go: http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/envs/scud_irfna.htm This fits very neatly to the observed facts; respertory symtems on those that approached the crater, flaming object falling from sky, big crater with metal debris around it. It's no wonder that they are getting skin lesions if they are handling debris with RFNA on it. Peru must have test fired one and it didn't come down where it was supposed to.
> > "Unconfirmed reports in 1995 and 1996 have suggested that `Scud B' > > missiles may have been purchased by Armenia, Ecuador, Pakistan, Peru > > and Democratic Republic of the Congo; but these might have been built > > in the former Soviet Union or elsewhere."
> Here we go:http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/envs/scud_irfna.htm > This fits very neatly to the observed facts; respertory symtems on those > that approached the crater, flaming object falling from sky, big crater > with metal debris around it. > It's no wonder that they are getting skin lesions if they are handling > debris with RFNA on it. > Peru must have test fired one and it didn't come down where it was > supposed to.
> Pat
Sounds like that may be a neat fit in this case, never considered. Makes you wonder why in the hell they would be test firing a Scud tho' ? Was it muscle flexing , show, or training or maybe even working on next years Carnival (or something thereabouts)? All things considered pretty isolated, only a town or two in jeopardy. Do you have any info on that V2 damaging the He 111 tug or on the incident itself? Always guessing how fast that was going when it impacted, roughest estimate I'ld venture is near mach 1 (just don't ask how I arrive at that one) ..............Doc
Dr.Colon.Osc...@gmail.com wrote: > Do you > have any info on that V2 damaging the He 111 tug or on the incident > itself? Always guessing how fast that was going when it impacted, > roughest estimate I'ld venture is near mach 1 (just don't ask how I > arrive at that one) ..............Doc
I dug some stuff on the incident in the book "V-Missiles Of The Third Reich". The missiles was A4 V38 (A4 rocket test vehicle #38) in that book they say it wasn't carrying a warhead, and the explosion was due to the fuel detonating on impact. The color stills just before impact show some flames back at the exhaust, but they are only going a couple feet behind the rocket, so it looks like thrust was pretty much terminated by the time of impact. Impact occurred 27 seconds after liftoff. According to this, launch was on June 29th, 1943: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V-2_test_launches, with a burn time of 15 seconds and a range of 3 km...although they don't give the nature of what went wrong with it, that makes it sound like the engine shut down prematurely. The missile fell on Karlshagen airfield blowing out a impressive crater, although the combustion chamber survived intact. The book shows a couple of photos of a He-111H (markings BJ+ST) that was in close proximity to the impact point. The concussion wave has blown every last panel of the glazing out of the bomber's canopy while leaving the framework largely intact. The impact point was just a little shy of 2 miles from the launch point (test stand VII). I read about the damage to the He-111Z's in some other book a long time back, although I've never seen photos of them at Peenemunde - in fact, there are very few existing photos of them at all.
Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote: > The color stills just before impact show some flames back at the > exhaust, but they are only going a couple feet behind the rocket, so it > looks like thrust was pretty much terminated by the time of impact.
If the rocket was going (mostly) straight down, unless the tanks were pressurized, or they had drains at the top, I guess it stands to reason that thrust would have terminated no?
rick jones -- portable adj, code that compiles under more than one compiler these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :) feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
Rick Jones wrote: > If the rocket was going (mostly) straight down, unless the tanks were > pressurized, or they had drains at the top, I guess it stands to > reason that thrust would have terminated no?
In the film it takes off, starts to arc over like it would on its normal ballistic trajectory, keeps right on arcing over, and ends up going straight down. If it were under positive acceleration the whole way due to the engine's thrust, the propellants would still be seated at the base of the tanks and could feed to the engine, even if it were going straight down.
Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote: > In the film it takes off, starts to arc over like it would on its > normal ballistic trajectory, keeps right on arcing over, and ends up > going straight down. If it were under positive acceleration the > whole way due to the engine's thrust, the propellants would still be > seated at the base of the tanks and could feed to the engine, even > if it were going straight down.
That would have to be positive acceleration greater than 1G right?
rick jones -- a wide gulf separates "what if" from "if only" these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :) feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:11:55 -0500, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:
>This fits very neatly to the observed facts; respertory symtems on those >that approached the crater, flaming object falling from sky, big crater >with metal debris around it.
...You know, we've all been making the jokes about Andromeda(*), nobody's asked the *really* important question: are there any old bums with dogs who were last seen poking sticks into the hole?
(*) One of the things Crichton needs to do is to give that classic the one modernization tweak that'll make the epilog finally some sense: The reason Andromeda's a crystal is that it's actually a nanite whose purpose is to keep Humanity grounded on Earth by destroying all synthetic rubbers - polycron, sorbathane - that are necessary for pressure gaskets on spacecraft.
OM -- ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Rick Jones wrote: > Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:
>> In the film it takes off, starts to arc over like it would on its >> normal ballistic trajectory, keeps right on arcing over, and ends up >> going straight down. If it were under positive acceleration the >> whole way due to the engine's thrust, the propellants would still be >> seated at the base of the tanks and could feed to the engine, even >> if it were going straight down.
> That would have to be positive acceleration greater than 1G right?
Yeah, it would be in freefall, but with with the engine pushing it the propellants would move to the back of the tanks as it was driven downwards faster than it would naturally fall. From the statement on the Wikipedia article that the engine stopped after 15 seconds, it looks like it just arched over and fell back to Earth like a bomb, its high impact speed being due to its streamlined shape, although some flames are visible at the back end as it descends. If that were the case, the propellants would move to the front of the tanks due to air drag slowing it a bit below pure freefall speed. What hits me as odd for one having no warhead is how much debris gets tossed into the air when it hits; I assume that may be due to the violent mixing of the Lox and alcohol on impact generating a very explosive mixture.
OM wrote: > On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:11:55 -0500, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> > wrote:
>> This fits very neatly to the observed facts; respertory symtems on those >> that approached the crater, flaming object falling from sky, big crater >> with metal debris around it.
> ...You know, we've all been making the jokes about Andromeda(*), > nobody's asked the *really* important question: are there any old bums > with dogs who were last seen poking sticks into the hole?
Never a wise idea...no smarter going into a sandpit where you saw a saucer land during a thunderstorm. This is getting very funny, I've read around eight different and contradictory stories coming out of the place in the past twelve hours. 1.) The Peruvian doctors say no one got sick, and it was mass hysteria caused by a meteorite going bang. 2.) The Peruvian government says that 150-600 people were made ill by the foul smell. 3.) The Peruvian geologists say it was a stony meteorite. 4.) The Peruvian astronomers say it was a chondrite meteorite. 5.) There was no bad odor. 6.) There was a bad odor, as the meteorite had sulfur in it. 7.) The water in the pit boiled after the impact. 8.) The water in the pit did not boil after the impact. I have never heard of a meteorite making people sick with its smell, and although movies will tell you otherwise, meteorites that are glowing all the way to impact are going to make a bigger crater than that as they are going to be going around Mach 10, and that implies they have a large mass so that the atmosphere doesn't slow them down, and that means a very big blast on impact. Also, meteorites tend to be icy cold, not hot, on impact...as their outer layers ablate as they enter the atmosphere like a heatshield, leaving the core that is cold as interplanetary space. Sooner or later somebody's going to go into the hole and see what's down there. Black Oil, of course. :-)
> Never a wise idea...no smarter going into a sandpit where you saw a > saucer land during a thunderstorm. > This is getting very funny, I've read around eight different and > contradictory stories coming out of the place in the past twelve hours. > 1.) The Peruvian doctors say no one got sick, and it was mass hysteria > caused by a meteorite going bang. > 2.) The Peruvian government says that 150-600 people were made ill by > the foul smell. > 3.) The Peruvian geologists say it was a stony meteorite. > 4.) The Peruvian astronomers say it was a chondrite meteorite. > 5.) There was no bad odor. > 6.) There was a bad odor, as the meteorite had sulfur in it. > 7.) The water in the pit boiled after the impact. > 8.) The water in the pit did not boil after the impact.
My favourite is the repeated assurances that the site isn't radioactive.
I can't believe that Associated Press is repeating all this.
> My favourite is the repeated assurances that the site isn't radioactive.
> I can't believe that Associated Press is repeating all this.
I still liked the one where it was just a natural lake, and people mistook it for a crater. Most natural lakes are tiny, circular, and surrounded by a raised rim of disturbed soil and debris. :-) I still wouldn't completely rule out something volcanic in nature though. Yesterday, when Bloomberg was talking about a "luminous substance" around the crater that caused skin lesions in those who handled it: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aM4JoplTwAWI&refe... ...I thought "oh-oh...this is a RTG or reactor off of a satellite and they are playing around with isotopes or the sodium/potassium heat transfer fluid."
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:11:55 -0500, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> > wrote:
> >This fits very neatly to the observed facts; respertory symtems on those > >that approached the crater, flaming object falling from sky, big crater > >with metal debris around it.
> ...You know, we've all been making the jokes about Andromeda(*), > nobody's asked the *really* important question: are there any old bums > with dogs who were last seen poking sticks into the hole?
> (*) One of the things Crichton needs to do is to give that classic the > one modernization tweak that'll make the epilog finally some sense: > The reason Andromeda's a crystal is that it's actually a nanite whose > purpose is to keep Humanity grounded on Earth by destroying all > synthetic rubbers - polycron, sorbathane - that are necessary for > pressure gaskets on spacecraft.
> OM > -- > ]=====================================[ > ] OMBlog -http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ > ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ > ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ > ]=====================================[
Further on: a natural substitute is found in corn oil (proprietary process) with FritoLay therefore becoming the earths new Engulf and Devour. With Corn oil gone, and Saflower on the mat, there is no more margarine or Discovery Channel specials, cars chug to a halt by the side of the road (in Brazil) and civilization starts a precarious slide. But wait, humans seize the moment to expand outwards, and , and then its 1 by 3 by 9....... Its a rough draft I realize but with a little rework I think.................Doc
Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote: > What hits me as odd for one having no warhead is how much debris > gets tossed into the air when it hits; I assume that may be due to > the violent mixing of the Lox and alcohol on impact generating a > very explosive mixture.
I guess we now know the secret ingredient of Russia's Father of All Bombs :)
rick jones -- Wisdom Teeth are impacted, people are affected by the effects of events. these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :) feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
Dr.Colon.Osc...@gmail.com wrote: > Further on: a natural substitute is found in corn oil (proprietary > process) with FritoLay therefore becoming the earths new Engulf and > Devour. > With Corn oil gone, and Saflower on the mat, there is no more > margarine or Discovery Channel specials, cars chug to a halt by the > side of the road (in Brazil) and civilization starts a precarious > slide. But wait, humans seize the moment to expand outwards, and , > and then its 1 by 3 by 9....... Its a rough draft I realize but with > a little rework I think.................Doc
On Sep 20, 11:33 am, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:
> Dr.Colon.Osc...@gmail.com wrote: > > Further on: a natural substitute is found in corn oil (proprietary > > process) with FritoLay therefore becoming the earths new Engulf and > > Devour. > > With Corn oil gone, and Saflower on the mat, there is no more > > margarine or Discovery Channel specials, cars chug to a halt by the > > side of the road (in Brazil) and civilization starts a precarious > > slide. But wait, humans seize the moment to expand outwards, and , > > and then its 1 by 3 by 9....... Its a rough draft I realize but with > > a little rework I think.................Doc
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