Mystery - Apollo Spacecraft Recovered by Soviet Union?
Mark Wade
Here is a remarkable photo I cannot get any information on. You can
view it at:
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
This is a photograph from a Hungarian newspaper 32 years ago. The
caption reads:
Murmansk (Soviet harbor). An Apollo capsule is turned over to a US
delegate. Soviet fishermen recovered it in the Bay of Biscay.
Photo: Hungarian News Agency. Date: September 8, 1970.
I can only imagine this was a water recovery test article lost by the
US Navy.
I've checked the Field Guide to American Spacecraft and can't find any
clue which article it might be. Ditto searches of NASA histories etc.
Is there any more information on this? Can anyone identify which
article it was and where it is now?
Was there perhaps a cover-up by an embarassed US government / Navy?
Regards --
Mark Wade
Encyclopedia Astronautica
http://www.astronautix.com/
mark...@compuserve.com
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
"Mark Wade" <10132...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3c9cd753...@news.compuserve.com...
>
> Here is a remarkable photo I cannot get any information on. You can
> view it at:
>
> http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
>
> This is a photograph from a Hungarian newspaper 32 years ago. The
> caption reads:
I don't know, it looks fake to me.
John Beaderstadt
> http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
>
> This is a photograph from a Hungarian newspaper 32 years ago. The
> caption reads:
>
> Murmansk (Soviet harbor). An Apollo capsule is turned over to a US
> delegate. Soviet fishermen recovered it in the Bay of Biscay.
> Photo: Hungarian News Agency. Date: September 8, 1970.
Well, I can't comment on the capsule, and I know this sounds crazy, but
the three seamen appear to be wearing American naval chief petty officer
insignia and uniforms. I am, however, completely unfamiliar with Soviet
Bloc naval uniforms. The thought does occur that, whatever nationality,
those are senior enlisted men in the photo; where are the officers? If
the caption is taken at face value, wouldn't you expect at least a junior
officer to be present, no matter how clandestine the affair was supposed
to be? Can we tell anything from the naval vessels in the background?
Also, if those are supposed to be American civilians, wasn't it the
fashion to wear sideburns to the bottom of the ear, in 1970?
--
Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any
phenomenon is almost always the most boring."
Mountain Camper
> Mark Wade wrote:
>
> > http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
> >
> > This is a photograph from a Hungarian newspaper 32 years ago. The
> > caption reads:
> >
> > Murmansk (Soviet harbor). An Apollo capsule is turned over to a US
> > delegate. Soviet fishermen recovered it in the Bay of Biscay.
> > Photo: Hungarian News Agency. Date: September 8, 1970.
>
> Well, I can't comment on the capsule, and I know this sounds crazy, but
> the three seamen appear to be wearing American naval chief petty officer
> insignia and uniforms. I am, however, completely unfamiliar with Soviet
> Bloc naval uniforms. The thought does occur that, whatever nationality,
> those are senior enlisted men in the photo; where are the officers? If
> the caption is taken at face value, wouldn't you expect at least a junior
> officer to be present, no matter how clandestine the affair was supposed
> to be? Can we tell anything from the naval vessels in the background?
> Also, if those are supposed to be American civilians, wasn't it the
> fashion to wear sideburns to the bottom of the ear, in 1970?
The people in this photograph from left to right are: Alexis Park, the
Soviet fisherman who discovered the capsule in Loch ness, Karl Malden's
cousin George Klugman, Oliver North, Prince Charles, Dan Fouts (go
Chargers,) a friend of mine from the U.S. Public Health Service who I will
call Jake the "Snake" Oz, and finally, I do not recognize the last chap.
The ship to the right is a U.S. Coast Guard Cutter (note the port holes,)
The ship behind the model (oops) is an unarmed Soviet Hospital ship.
Yep, this photo is the smoking gun that we paid the Soviets a lot
of money to go along with us on our fake moon expeditions :-) <snicker>
Of course I could be completely wrong too.
--
Mountain Camper
Alea iacta est!
Audiatur et altera pars.
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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George Miller
<mountai...@lvcm.com.not-this> wrote:
>The people in this photograph from left to right are: Alexis Park, the
>Soviet fisherman who discovered the capsule in Loch ness, Karl Malden's
>cousin George Klugman, Oliver North, Prince Charles, Dan Fouts (go
>Chargers,) a friend of mine from the U.S. Public Health Service who I will
>call Jake the "Snake" Oz, and finally, I do not recognize the last chap.
Like father, like son.
>PLONK<
OM
Wade) wrote:
>Here is a remarkable photo I cannot get any information on. You can
>view it at:
>
>http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
...This looks like a Block I boilerplate. possibly used for recovery
testing & practice ops. The swabbos appear to be wearing USN enlisted
salt-n-peppers circa 1965 or thereabouts based on the thickness of the
sleeve stripes. IIRC - and no doubt Derek will confirm/deny this -
they shrunk the sleeve stripes a bit around '66 or so.
Chuck? Do you have any archive data on what boilerplates were used for
such practice runs?
OM
--
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for | o...@need-to-know.basis
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb bastard die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society
- General George S. Patton, Jr
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
"George Miller" <miller...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ieq9ustr663a3htq...@4ax.com...
Umm, hardly. One of them understands the concept of sarcasm.
> >PLONK<
>
>
OM
<miller...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Like father, like son.
...You just *now* figured this out?
connor
Mountain Camper
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 02:25:26 GMT, George Miller wrote:
>
> >Like father, like son.
>
> ...You just *now* figured this out?
OM, I'll be back to my normal self in a couple more days. Til then, I
promise no more sarcastic jokes. I did not mean to offend anyone; but if
you use the magnifier on that photo, the people in the photo do have some
resemblance to some famous people IM medicated Opinion :-)
Scott Lowther
Indeed! Anyone can CLEARLY see that these guys in the photo are the
Beatles.
PUK
Boileplate jettisoned on insertion during one of the three Pegasus missions
in 1965?
Looking at photo the figure 5 is fairly prominent.
Could it,therefore,be A-105 from Saturn-Apollo 10 of 30 July 1965?
Phill
UK
"Mark Wade" <10132...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3c9cd753...@news.compuserve.com...
>
PUK
a) Very little apparent damage if this boilerplate from c.1965 (?) had been
bobbing about in the Atlantic Ocean all that time?
b) If it is a re entered boilerplate from Pegasus era little sign of entry
frictional heating ? Would the boilerplate have had installed an ablative
heatshield anyway?
c) Were any Apollo craft loaned to Soviet Union for exhibition after
succesful Apollo-11 and Apollo-12 flights in 1969-70 and this was being
returned from Moscow via Murmansk ? i.e.could the Hungarian story be wrong?
Frank Borman had been to Moscow etal places in USSR pre 1970 and both
Soviets and USA were beginning to exchange lunar returned samples. I don't
recall any press notices about Apollo Exhbitions in Moscow in that era?
d) Would the Soviets have allowed a US Navy vessel into Murmansk? Even in
1970s ?
Just some things to ponder over?
Phill
"Mark Wade" <10132...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3c9cd753...@news.compuserve.com...
>
Adam Bootle
Apollo boilerplate in the North Sea. And it was picked up by a foreign
fishing vessel
They used to practise recovery with boilerplates over here, apparently in
case of a badly targeted landing. There's still a boilerplate over here in
one of the US Airbases. (Mildenhall I think !)
Adam
"Mark Wade" <10132...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3c9cd753...@news.compuserve.com...
>
John Beaderstadt
> d) Would the Soviets have allowed a US Navy vessel into Murmansk? Even in
> 1970s ?
Thinking about it some more, is there anything at all about the photo, other
than for the caption, to indicate it was taken anywhere but an American dock?
Near as I can tell, all identifiable objects and personnel in the pic are
American.
Chuck Stewart
> Like father, like son.
Since of humour out of whack?
It was a joke, son...
--
Chuck Stewart
"Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"
Justin Wigg
news:10942d2f.02032...@posting.google.com...
> Perhaps an early Almaz???
I assume you are referring to the re-entry module of the proposed manned TKS
spacecraft. As far as I know, the TKS module *always* had a round hatch.
(See <http://www.astronautix.com/craft/tksva.htm>).
--
"Managing senior programmers is | Justin Wigg - Hobart, AUSTRALIA
like herding cats." - Dave Platt | Reply: jus...@icsmultimedia.com.au
Tamas Feher
>Here is a remarkable photo I cannot get any information on. You can
>view it at:
>
>http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
>
>This is a photograph from a Hungarian newspaper 32 years ago.
I am a Hungarian, I live in the capital, Budapest. I could try to check it for
you.
Do you know the name of the Newspaper?
BTW, there is the front of a rather large warship visible in the background. In
my opinion someone proficient in naval vessels / history could easily identify
the ship-class as soviet/NATO; radar masts, shape of the bridge, etc. are rather
unique for each class or even individual ships. That could prove something.
Yours Faithfully: Tamas Feher.
jsc...@nospampirl.lpl.arizona.edu
: Looking at photo the figure 5 is fairly prominent.
: Could it,therefore,be A-105 from Saturn-Apollo 10 of 30 July 1965?
Looks more like an "S" than a 5 to me on the upper left part of the
capsule (as in part of USA?). From the state of the capsule, it looks
like it definitely was not flown. There is no damage from a re-entry.
My guess is it is a boilerplate used for water recovery training or
something similar.
Jim.
: "Mark Wade" <10132...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
: news:3c9cd753...@news.compuserve.com...
:>
:> Here is a remarkable photo I cannot get any information on. You can
:> view it at:
:>
:> http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
:>
:> This is a photograph from a Hungarian newspaper 32 years ago. The
:> caption reads:
:>
:> Murmansk (Soviet harbor). An Apollo capsule is turned over to a US
:> delegate. Soviet fishermen recovered it in the Bay of Biscay.
:> Photo: Hungarian News Agency. Date: September 8, 1970.
:>
:> I can only imagine this was a water recovery test article lost by the
:> US Navy.
:>
:> I've checked the Field Guide to American Spacecraft and can't find any
:> clue which article it might be. Ditto searches of NASA histories etc.
:>
:> Is there any more information on this? Can anyone identify which
:> article it was and where it is now?
:>
:> Was there perhaps a cover-up by an embarassed US government / Navy?
:>
:> Regards --
:>
:> Mark Wade
:> Encyclopedia Astronautica
:> http://www.astronautix.com/
:> mark...@compuserve.com
Jim Scotti
Lunar & Planetary Laboratory jsc...@pirl.lpl.arizona.edu
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721 USA http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~jscotti/
Brian McKillop
> "Mark Wade" <10132...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:3c9cd753...@news.compuserve.com...
> >>
> >
> > Mark Wade
> > Encyclopedia Astronautica
> > http://www.astronautix.com/
> > mark...@compuserve.com
>
>
I note that no stars are visible in the sky.
Brian
John Charles
First, it is a Block 2 (looking at the shape of the forward RCS) CM
boilerplate. Second, the lettering on the capsule appears to spell
NASA in the "standard" font that I have seen on other recovered BPs.
The sailors are obviously US Navy, the civilians look like Europeans
to me, but beyond that I cannot place the location.
Maybe it really is what the caption says.
John Charles
Houston, Texas
Chris Manteuffel
<eto...@freemail.hu> arranged electrons in an arbitrary pattern
familiar to all as:
>
>
>BTW, there is the front of a rather large warship visible in the background. In
>my opinion someone proficient in naval vessels / history could easily identify
>the ship-class as soviet/NATO; radar masts, shape of the bridge, etc. are rather
>unique for each class or even individual ships. That could prove something.
I'm not an expert, but I like to look at ships. The aerials on the
ship say civilian to me, but I couldn't prove it. I just don't see
enough antenna's to be more than some radios and a navigation radar.
Certainly, if it is a warship, I don't see any major radars. Again,
not an expert.
Chris Manteuffel
"...the war situation has developed not necessarily
to Japan's advantage..."
-Emperor Hirohito, August 14, 1945
Derek Lyons
>Well, I can't comment on the capsule, and I know this sounds crazy, but
>the three seamen appear to be wearing American naval chief petty officer
>insignia and uniforms.
The uniforms are right... But the guy on the left side of that group
bugs me. It appears that he has a beard, and I think beards came in
later.
>Also, if those are supposed to be American civilians, wasn't it the
>fashion to wear sideburns to the bottom of the ear, in 1970?
That varies by person, 'professional' men commonly did not, especially
when they didn't have sideburns. (Which these guys don't appear to.)
D.
Derek Lyons
>The swabbos appear to be wearing USN enlisted
>salt-n-peppers circa 1965 or thereabouts based on the thickness of the
>sleeve stripes. IIRC - and no doubt Derek will confirm/deny this -
>they shrunk the sleeve stripes a bit around '66 or so.
I'm uncomfortable with those uniforms, they appear to be more akin to
the Z-Gram era, which is somewhat later I think. OTOH I'm only
generally familiar with the CPO uniforms of that era.
D.
Derek Lyons
>I'm not an expert, but I like to look at ships. The aerials on the
>ship say civilian to me, but I couldn't prove it. I just don't see
>enough antenna's to be more than some radios and a navigation radar.
>Certainly, if it is a warship, I don't see any major radars. Again,
>not an expert.
Maybe this should be crossposted to sci.military.naval? Some awfully
good whizzes on ship ID there.
D.
Derek Lyons
>Here is a remarkable photo I cannot get any information on. You can
>view it at:
>
>http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
>
>This is a photograph from a Hungarian newspaper 32 years ago. The
>caption reads:
>
>Murmansk (Soviet harbor). An Apollo capsule is turned over to a US
>delegate. Soviet fishermen recovered it in the Bay of Biscay.
>Photo: Hungarian News Agency. Date: September 8, 1970.
Crossposted to s.m.n in hopes of assistance with the following:
-Dating and verification of the uniforms on the CPO's on the right
side of the picture.
-Determining the identity of the ship in the background.
D.
Eugene Griessel
Appears to be a "wind" class US Coastguard vessel. On the right side
of the picture it could be the US NOAA ship "Surveyor".
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
SAAF Crashboat History www.dynagen.co.za/eugene/guybook.html
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because
they almost always turn out to be - or to be indistinguishable from - self-righteous
sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
Neil Stephenson, Cryptonomicon
Eugene Griessel
Remarkable indeed. In 1970, only Apollo 13 was launched. It was
recovered by the normal people. As far as I can tell there are no
Apollo craft that went "missing".
John Beaderstadt
> The uniforms are right... But the guy on the left side of that group
> bugs me. It appears that he has a beard, and I think beards came in
> later.
For civilians, yes, but the American sea services have always allowed beards.
John Beaderstadt
> I'm uncomfortable with those uniforms, they appear to be more akin to
> the Z-Gram era, which is somewhat later I think. OTOH I'm only
> generally familiar with the CPO uniforms of that era.
Those appear to be correct winter uniforms of the era. Since the civilians
are wearing overcoats, the uniforms fit.
John Beaderstadt
> >-Determining the identity of the ship in the background.
>
> Appears to be a "wind" class US Coastguard vessel. On the right side
> of the picture it could be the US NOAA ship "Surveyor".
Again, that would fit with the uniforms. USCG uniforms were almost indistinguishable
from those of the USN. Unfortunately, I never got to see a "Wind."
The photo's caption aside, is there anything at all about the photo to indicate it was
not taken at an American facility? IOW, is there any indication that the photo has
anything at all to do with what the caption says it does?
Eugene Griessel
>Eugene Griessel wrote:
>
>> >-Determining the identity of the ship in the background.
>>
>> Appears to be a "wind" class US Coastguard vessel. On the right side
>> of the picture it could be the US NOAA ship "Surveyor".
>
>Again, that would fit with the uniforms. USCG uniforms were almost indistinguishable
>from those of the USN. Unfortunately, I never got to see a "Wind."
>
>The photo's caption aside, is there anything at all about the photo to indicate it was
>not taken at an American facility? IOW, is there any indication that the photo has
>anything at all to do with what the caption says it does?
One of the cranes appears to have some sort of sign - could be a
company logo, could be a dockyard badge etc. Anyone familiar with the
facilities in the 70's may be able to identify that.
Derek Lyons
>Remarkable indeed. In 1970, only Apollo 13 was launched. It was
>recovered by the normal people. As far as I can tell there are no
>Apollo craft that went "missing".
The theory in sci.space.history is that the pictured capsule was a
test and training article.
D.
Derek Lyons
>Derek Lyons wrote:
>
>> The uniforms are right... But the guy on the left side of that group
>> bugs me. It appears that he has a beard, and I think beards came in
>> later.
>
>For civilians, yes, but the American sea services have always allowed beards.
Not the USN, (I don't know about the Coasties for certain).
D.
Keith Willshaw
"Derek Lyons" <el...@hurricane.net> wrote in message
news:3ca54c93...@supernews.seanet.com...
It show no sign of the heating you'd expect from reentry so
that may be the answer
Take a look at photos of the following used capsules
to see what I mean
http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/AS8/10074995.jpg
http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/dsh/artifacts/HS-Apollo11Capsule.htm
http://www.universal.nl/users/smallstep/13splash.htm
Keith
Eugene Griessel
But why, if it was picked up in the Bay of Biscay, was it handed over
in Murmansk? And why did it end up in the Bay of Biscay when most of
the training was carried out in the Pacific?
Joachim Schmid
>
> One of the cranes appears to have some sort of sign - could be a
> company logo, could be a dockyard badge etc. Anyone familiar with the
> facilities in the 70's may be able to identify that.
I cannot recognize the signs mentioned, but the cranes look like a
typical USSR design. The railroad tracks on the pier have Russian braod
gauge. Also, the clothes the civilians wear are obviously of Sovielt
fashion. So far, the picture fits.
Disturbing points: I don't know of any Apollo command module ever landed
in the Biscay or captured by Soviet ships. Why handing this object over
at Murmansk to Coast Guard personnel by some subordinate officials? It
would have been investigated at Soviet spacecraft facilities and handed
back there or in Moscow. Also, the Soviets surely would have made a big
fuzz out of the whole thing with a big ceremony. The suspected Apollo
spacecraft has some strange characterstics different to the ones
actually been in use.
So my speculative conclusion is: The situation in the picture could as
well show a handover ceremony in reverse direction - to the Soviet side.
Maybe the NASA had built a life-sized model of an Apollo command module
to provide a means of training the recovery of an Apollo spacecraft by
Soviet ships in case of emergency. Or it is a mockup in preparation of
the ASTP (Apollo-Soyuz Test Project), a joint flight to test a common
docking system for space rescue.
Regards
Joachim
Eugene Griessel
>Eugene Griessel wrote:
>>
>> One of the cranes appears to have some sort of sign - could be a
>> company logo, could be a dockyard badge etc. Anyone familiar with the
>> facilities in the 70's may be able to identify that.
>
>I cannot recognize the signs mentioned, but the cranes look like a
>typical USSR design. The railroad tracks on the pier have Russian braod
>gauge. Also, the clothes the civilians wear are obviously of Sovielt
>fashion. So far, the picture fits.
The cranes look typical cranes - of a type I've seen all over the
world. Unless there is some particularly discernable idiosyncrasy
unique to Russian cranes I would be loathe to classify them as
"Russian" on so poor a photograph. The rails are 5 to 7 foot broad -
as judged against the group of people in the background. Once again -
nothing out of the ordinary and if they are crane rails they need not
conform to any particular railway specifications. As to the civilians
- once again there is nothing that particularly screams "Russian"
about their clothing. The guy with his hands in his coat pockets
could very well be von Braun - the profile looks a lot like him. And
shiny suits were fashionable at one time in the late sixties/early
seventies.
Giovanni Abrate
The shoes on the civilians look too good to be 1960s East Block.
IMMO, of course.
Giovanni
"Mark Wade" <10132...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3c9cd753...@news.compuserve.com...
>
> Here is a remarkable photo I cannot get any information on. You can
> view it at:
>
> http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
>
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Joachim Schmid
>
> >I cannot recognize the signs mentioned, but the cranes look like a
> >typical USSR design. The railroad tracks on the pier have Russian braod
> >gauge. Also, the clothes the civilians wear are obviously of Sovielt
> >fashion. So far, the picture fits.
(sorry for my typos)
> The cranes look typical cranes - of a type I've seen all over the
> world. Unless there is some particularly discernable idiosyncrasy
> unique to Russian cranes
Would you accept if I say "a ship looks like a ship all over the world"?
No, my friend, there are distinctive characteristics in the design of
lifting equipment, too. Being an educated engineer in materials handling
technology as well as in manufacturing technology, in all modesty I feel
able to recognize these characteristics.
> The rails are 5 to 7 foot broad -
> as judged against the group of people in the background. Once again -
> nothing out of the ordinary and if they are crane rails they need not
> conform to any particular railway specifications.
Once again - this is wrong. For people being concerned with railroading
it is possible to distinguish a broad gauge track from standard gauge by
eye sight. Go to New Orleans and take a look at the street car tracks
there - or at the BART subway in Frisco - and you will see what I mean.
> As to the civilians
> - once again there is nothing that particularly screams "Russian"
> about their clothing.
You want to tell me that running around in such coats and hair cuts was
in fashion in the USA of 1970?? My memory tells me other things. When in
the Soviet Union in 1976, I had been easily recognized as a Westerner
simply by the clothes I wore - and vice versa. And I was definitely not
a Blue Jeans type.
> The guy with his hands in his coat pockets
> could very well be von Braun - the profile looks a lot like him.
Eh ... you really know WvB??
Regards
Joachim
Eugene Griessel
>Eugene Griessel wrote:
>>
>> >I cannot recognize the signs mentioned, but the cranes look like a
>> >typical USSR design. The railroad tracks on the pier have Russian braod
>> >gauge. Also, the clothes the civilians wear are obviously of Sovielt
>> >fashion. So far, the picture fits.
>
>(sorry for my typos)
>
>> The cranes look typical cranes - of a type I've seen all over the
>> world. Unless there is some particularly discernable idiosyncrasy
>> unique to Russian cranes
>
>Would you accept if I say "a ship looks like a ship all over the world"?
>No, my friend, there are distinctive characteristics in the design of
>lifting equipment, too. Being an educated engineer in materials handling
>technology as well as in manufacturing technology, in all modesty I feel
>able to recognize these characteristics.
Instead of bragging about your qualifications why don't you explain
why those are "Russian" cranes. I as an engineer of nearly 30 years
standing say they are not. Prove me wrong.
>
>> The rails are 5 to 7 foot broad -
>> as judged against the group of people in the background. Once again -
>> nothing out of the ordinary and if they are crane rails they need not
>> conform to any particular railway specifications.
>
>Once again - this is wrong. For people being concerned with railroading
>it is possible to distinguish a broad gauge track from standard gauge by
>eye sight. Go to New Orleans and take a look at the street car tracks
>there - or at the BART subway in Frisco - and you will see what I mean.
Once again I have to hear of your fantastic abilities without a single
word of genuine explanation other than "trust me, I know what I'm
doing". I will bet you pounds to pennies that those tracks are
standard 4 foot 8 and a half inch tracks. Use a photo editor, snip
out the people in the background where they are standing next to the
rails and lay them across the rails at 90 degrees. They overlap
comfortably.
>
>> As to the civilians
>> - once again there is nothing that particularly screams "Russian"
>> about their clothing.
>
>You want to tell me that running around in such coats and hair cuts was
>in fashion in the USA of 1970?? My memory tells me other things. When in
>the Soviet Union in 1976, I had been easily recognized as a Westerner
>simply by the clothes I wore - and vice versa. And I was definitely not
>a Blue Jeans type.
When I was in Germany in 1976 I could be recognised by the clothes I
wore. So what? What specifically makes those Russian clothes - other
than "trust me, I know". Explanations rather than unsubstantiated
claims would be far better.
>> The guy with his hands in his coat pockets
>> could very well be von Braun - the profile looks a lot like him.
>
>Eh ... you really know WvB??
I have half a dozen pictures of him here in profile - I can stick them
next to that character and you could not tell the difference.
Andrew Toppan
I've been working on this picture for several days already. A few points to
note:
-I've been told (by knowledgable people) that this is NOT a real Apollo
spacecraft; it is a recovery training article.
-The ship in the left background is definitely a US Coast Guard WIND class
icebreaker. None of these was in Soviet service after 1951, and the ones
serving the US Navy were painted gray, not white.
-Although the cranes at left are not *typical* of US practice, atypical cranes
are not unheard of.
--
Andrew Toppan --- acto...@gwi.net --- "I speak only for myself"
"Haze Gray & Underway" - Naval History, DANFS, World Navies Today,
Photo Features, Military FAQs, and more - http://www.hazegray.org/
Joachim Schmid
>
> Instead of bragging about your qualifications
I always admire the politeness you show in your postings
> why don't you explain why those are "Russian" cranes.
Some things could not be explained in a few words. It's more a matter of
feeling, of proportions and details. E.g. the material intense general
disposition, the typical jib's layout, the lack of a good visible
manufacturer's name inscription, the triple rolls at the jib's end. Is
this enough?
> I as an engineer of nearly 30 years standing say they are not.
Nope. You said you cannot decide whether they are Russian or not.
> >> The rails are 5 to 7 foot broad -
> >> as judged against the group of people in the background. Once again -
> >> nothing out of the ordinary and if they are crane rails they need not
> >> conform to any particular railway specifications.
The master engineer cannot distinguish between the cran rails and the
railroad tracks in this picture??
> >Once again - this is wrong. For people being concerned with railroading
> >it is possible to distinguish a broad gauge track from standard gauge by
> >eye sight. Go to New Orleans and take a look at the street car tracks
> >there - or at the BART subway in Frisco - and you will see what I mean.
>
> Once again I have to hear of your fantastic abilities without a single
> word of genuine explanation other than "trust me, I know what I'm
> doing".
If you are lacking this view for proportions (sadly for a person
claiming to be an experienced engineer) you don't need to nag around at
all.
> I will bet you pounds to pennies that those tracks are
> standard 4 foot 8 and a half inch tracks.
"The rails are 5 to 7 foot broad" (Eugene E. Griessel)
> Use a photo editor, snip
> out the people in the background where they are standing next to the
> rails and lay them across the rails at 90 degrees. They overlap
> comfortably.
Obviously you didn't perform the operation you were describing. Either
these people are from Chinese origin, or the rails have a gauge larger
than 1435 mm. They need to take a _very_ long step to cross this track.
> >> As to the civilians
> >> - once again there is nothing that particularly screams "Russian"
> >> about their clothing.
> >
> >You want to tell me that running around in such coats and hair cuts was
> >in fashion in the USA of 1970?? My memory tells me other things. When in
> >the Soviet Union in 1976, I had been easily recognized as a Westerner
> >simply by the clothes I wore - and vice versa. And I was definitely not
> >a Blue Jeans type.
>
> When I was in Germany in 1976 I could be recognised by the clothes I
> wore. So what?
So you confirm that there _are_ country-specific features of clothing.
Thank you.
> What specifically makes those Russian clothes - other than "trust me, I know".
Once again: It's a matter of feeling. Fabric, cut, the way they wear it.
Living all time at the frontier, we Germany could see people from
Socialist countries every day in TV and recognize the differences.
> Explanations rather than unsubstantiated claims would be far better.
So you may please explain why I am wrong and the people look like US
inhabitants of 1970 instead.
> >> The guy with his hands in his coat pockets
> >> could very well be von Braun - the profile looks a lot like him.
> >
> >Eh ... you really know WvB??
>
> I have half a dozen pictures of him here in profile - I can stick them
> next to that character and you could not tell the difference.
Maybe you need new glasses? As you can see at
<http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/vba7>, in 1970 WvB had grey
instead of dark hair and a distinctive chin - not a fleeing one like the
man there. And he did _never_ wear side whiskers nor was he as slim as
this man.
Joachim
Andrew Toppan
<prof_joac...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>If you are lacking this view for proportions (sadly for a person
>claiming to be an experienced engineer) you don't need to nag around at
>all.
Why must you be rude and obnoxious?
Joachim Schmid
>
> >If you are lacking this view for proportions (sadly for a person
> >claiming to be an experienced engineer) you don't need to nag around at
> >all.
>
> Why must you be rude and obnoxious?
Why didn't you say this to Eugene? He was the one starting to grumble
without reason, not me. I did not have attacked him in any way. In
contrary, I had picked up his cosiderations constructively.
Joachim
Byron Audler
wrote:
Andrew, for someone who's made a name for himself by being rude and
obnoxious, you have no room to make such a statement to someone else.
And besides that, when did you decide to become the good behavious
police here?
Byron Audler
Andrew Toppan
>Andrew, for someone who's made a name for himself by being rude and
>obnoxious, you have no room to make such a statement to someone else.
There's a difference between "rude and obnoxious" and short, concise, to the
point, and intolerant of fools. I do not intentionally degrade intelligent
discussion into name-calling, as has been done here.
John Beaderstadt
> Eugene Griessel wrote:
> >
> > Instead of bragging about your qualifications
>
> I always admire the politeness you show in your postings
Well, there's another good thread, shot to hell.
samira
John Beaderstadt <be...@mindspring.com> schreef in berichtnieuws >
> Well, there's another good thread, shot to hell.
I totally agree!
This was one of the most interesting topics I 've read in the last weeks.
Why don't they just try to *prove* who is right.
Kenny MacLeod
news:a81j2c$pk9$1...@reader05.wxs.nl...
>
> John Beaderstadt <be...@mindspring.com> schreef in berichtnieuws >
> > Well, there's another good thread, shot to hell.
>
> I totally agree!
> This was one of the most interesting topics I 've read in the last weeks.
Wot, isn't the thread on boiler cleaning interesting enough for you?
Tamas Feher
>The shoes on the civilians look too good to be 1960s East Block.
>IMMO, of course. Giovanni
Such a typical comment from an italian... You are still convinced the best shoes
are made in the boot-shaped country?
Sincerely: Tamas Feher.
Tamas Feher
>This was one of the most interesting topics I 've read
The investigation is almost finished now, look at Mark Wade's webpage:
Eugene Griessel
Has anyone asked NASA about the incident? I find them very helpful -
if slow to answer queries.
samira
Kenny MacLeod > > >
> Wot, isn't the thread on boiler cleaning interesting enough for you?
Oh Kenny, if your father had only used condoms 40 weeks before you were
born, the world would look quite different now.
Byron Audler
Thanks! Mystery solved! And it seems that quite a few people taking
part in the solution, were partly right...and partly wrong. And
appropos of nothing whatsoever, a very smart gentleman once told me,
that in a dispute between two people, there is this ones' truth, and
that ones' truth, and somewhere, in between the two, the real truth.
Byron Audler
W. David Edwards
> Here is a remarkable photo I cannot get any information on. You can
> view it at:
>
> http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/apcsmsov.jpg
>
> caption reads:
>
> Murmansk (Soviet harbor). An Apollo capsule is turned over to a US
> delegate. Soviet fishermen recovered it in the Bay of Biscay.
> Photo: Hungarian News Agency. Date: September 8, 1970.
>
> I can only imagine this was a water recovery test article lost by the
> US Navy.
>
> I've checked the Field Guide to American Spacecraft and can't find any
> clue which article it might be. Ditto searches of NASA histories etc.
>
> Is there any more information on this? Can anyone identify which
> article it was and where it is now?
>
> Was there perhaps a cover-up by an embarassed US government / Navy?
>
> Regards --
>
> Mark Wade
> Encyclopedia Astronautica
> http://www.astronautix.com/
> mark...@compuserve.com
The boilerplate CM lost by the Royal Navy and recovered by the Soviet
Union was SN BP-1227. It currently serves as a time capsule in Grand
Rapids, Michigan, USA, to be re-opened in 2076! For more information
see the website at:
http://aesp.nasa.okstate.edu/fieldguide/apollo/bp-1227.html
This is from Jim Gerard's "A Field Guide to American Spacecraft." An
excerpt from the Website reads:
"This command module boilerplate is displayed outside the National
Bank of Detroit in Grand Rapids, Michigan. [The accompanying plaque
reads:]
Dedicated to the people of Grand Rapids
December 31, 1976
This Apollo Command Module (No. SN BP-1227) contains memorabilia,
collected by area high school students. This memorabilia reflects life
in Grand Rapids, Michigan, at the time of the City's Sesquicentennial
and the Nation's Bicentennial.
It was used in training for the recovery of astronauts returning from
the moon. During an exorcise off the coast of England, it was lost at
sea, found by the USSR, and returned.
The module is on loan from the National Air and Space Museum to the
people of Grand Rapids and is to be opened July 4, 2076 during our
country's Tricentennial."
So, if the foregoing is accurate (and it appears to be), you have
confirmation and location.
Best regards,
W. David Edwards
Mountain Camper
"W. David Edwards" <dedw...@wcsr.com> wrote:
<snip>
Sir, I think your post qualifies as the first 2002 SSH home run :-) and on
the first game of the new season to boot!!!!
--
Mountain Camper
Forget injuries, never forget kindnesses
Chinese Proverb
---
Outgoing mail is sort of certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.343 / Virus Database: 190 - Release Date: 3/22/2002
OM
wrote:
>The boilerplate CM lost by the Royal Navy and recovered by the Soviet
>Union was SN BP-1227. It currently serves as a time capsule in Grand
>Rapids, Michigan, USA, to be re-opened in 2076! For more information
>see the website at:
>
>http://aesp.nasa.okstate.edu/fieldguide/apollo/bp-1227.html
...With all due respect to Henry, I'm sorry this wasn't a submission
for an ICH t-shirt. This was *good* detective work, son!
OM
--
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for | o...@need-to-know.basis
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb bastard die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society
- General George S. Patton, Jr
Carsten Nielsen
news:a81pih$27m$1...@athena.euroweb.hu...
The flag in front of the ship is probably the sort of flag, that a Navy
Ship
must fly in harbour. I can't remember
On US ships it looks like the blue field with stars in Stars and
Stripes,
but with no stripes.
Other countries use a smaller version of their regular flag, an old
version of their flag, or such.
Carsten Nielsen
Denmark
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
davebananna
>From: "Carsten Nielsen"
>The flag in front of the ship is probably the sort of flag, that a Navy
>Ship
>must fly in harbour. I can't remember
>
>On US ships it looks like the blue field with stars in Stars and
>Stripes,
>but with no stripes.
It's called a "jack".
DF
Brian Sharrock
"Carsten Nielsen" <carste...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1941324dc1295c68935...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> "Tamas Feher" <eto...@freemail.hu> wrote in message
> news:a81pih$27m$1...@athena.euroweb.hu...
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > >This was one of the most interesting topics I 've read
> >
> > The investigation is almost finished now, look at Mark Wade's webpage:
> >
> > <http://www.astronautix.com/articles/sovpsule.htm>
>
>
> The flag in front of the ship is probably the sort of flag, that a Navy
> Ship
> must fly in harbour. I can't remember
>
> On US ships it looks like the blue field with stars in Stars and
> Stripes,
> but with no stripes.
>
rather than 'Union' as in Kingdoms. 'Jack' because it's 'in front of
the ship' on the Jack staff.
--
Brian
davebananna
>It's called the "Union Jack" believe it or not! 'Union' as in states
>rather than 'Union' as in Kingdoms. 'Jack' because it's 'in front of
>the ship' on the Jack staff.
Nowhere in US Naval regulations is it referred to as "union" jack. The union
jack is the UK national flag. It's simply a "jack", or "naval jack".
DF
Gene DiGennaro
the Zumwault era. My dad was a petty officer during the 70's and had a
uniform very similar to that. The length of the sailor's hair suggests
that this was not taken in the mid 60's as some would suggest. Looks
more 70's to me. Here is what I think is going on here: The USN has a
boilerplate Apollo recovery training device. The year is 1974-75 and
the USN is training Soviet technicians in Apollo recovery for the
upcoming ASTP mission. In the spirit of Detente this would seem to be
a logical thing to do. Perhaps the Soviet and Hungarian military were
briefed on recovery of Apollo capsules at sea.
Gene DiGennaro
The Glenn L Martin Aviation Museum
Middle River Md.
331013...@compuserve.com (Mark Wade) wrote in message news:<3c9cd753...@news.compuserve.com>...
Kristan Roberge
Eugene Griessel wrote:
Must be something wrong with your photo editor or your eyesight. I look at the picture
and see wide gauge tracks too (and I grew up around raillines that handled iron ore so I
know the differences in wide and narrow gauges). When I look at the cluster of people
standing next to the rail lines, their heights pretty much dead match to the gauge of
rails, so unless the russian dockyards hire people 4'8" tall, those are NOT narrow gauge
rail lines.
Kristan Roberge
Byron Audler wrote:
Andrew's behaved like that for oh, 5 years now anyways. Pot, kettle, black
and all those cutesy sayings.
Andrew Gray
>more 70's to me. Here is what I think is going on here: The USN has a
>boilerplate Apollo recovery training device. The year is 1974-75 and
>the USN is training Soviet technicians in Apollo recovery for the
>upcoming ASTP mission. In the spirit of Detente this would seem to be
>a logical thing to do. Perhaps the Soviet and Hungarian military were
>briefed on recovery of Apollo capsules at sea.
But Hungary is landlocked... only landlocked country to ever be run by an
Admiral, but still landlocked.
Actually, the major problem is that the photo's 32 years old. Kinda predates
ASTP.
(the problem appears solved, just couldn't resist pointing that out)
-Andrew.
Keith Willshaw
"Kristan Roberge" <krob...@ca.inter.net> wrote in message
news:3CAA1DE3...@ca.inter.net...
>
>>
> Must be something wrong with your photo editor or your eyesight. I look at
the picture
> and see wide gauge tracks too (and I grew up around raillines that handled
iron ore so I
> know the differences in wide and narrow gauges). When I look at the
cluster of people
> standing next to the rail lines, their heights pretty much dead match to
the gauge of
> rails, so unless the russian dockyards hire people 4'8" tall, those are
NOT narrow gauge
> rail lines.
>
How big do you think Russian broad gauge is ?
Its actually 5' as I recall and I'm dammed if I could tell the
difference on that photo without some reference point
given that standard gauge is 4' 8-1/2"
Keith
Kristan Roberge
Andrew Toppan wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:37:02 GMT, bau...@bellsouth.net (Byron Audler) wrote:
>
> >Andrew, for someone who's made a name for himself by being rude and
> >obnoxious, you have no room to make such a statement to someone else.
>
> There's a difference between "rude and obnoxious" and short, concise, to the
> point, and intolerant of fools. I do not intentionally degrade intelligent
> discussion into name-calling, as has been done here.
yes, the difference is you call it something else when you're criticising someone
else for doing what you do yourself.
Kinda like how they called a certain class of carriers 'through-deck-cruisers' to
slip them thru parliamentary budget approval.
OM
<keith@kwillshaw_NoSpam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>How big do you think Russian broad gauge is ?
...Man, if this isn't a Yakov Smirnov joke lead in, I dunno what is
:-)
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Keith Willshaw <keith@kwillshaw_NoSpam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Its actually 5' as I recall and I'm dammed if I could tell the
>difference on that photo without some reference point
>given that standard gauge is 4' 8-1/2"
5' - but end-on the extra width is actually noticable. Remember
the first time I was in Finland (which also uses the wide gauge)
I was suprised that the difference was so noticable.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)