While I was out today, a voicemail came in from a General Dynamics Export Control Compliance guy at NASA/KSC. Wanted to ahve a chat with me about my web page here: http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocspace.htm
Didn't leave details, and by the time I heard the message, he had long since left for the weekend. So I get to wait until Monday, I suppose.
So I did the obvious thing... lookeda t that page to see what was on there that might be ITAR-problematic. I don;t see nuthin' but mostly Saturn stuff, witha bit of Shuttle and Dyna Soar. I figured maybe he got the wrong page, and instead meant this page: http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocair.htm
That, at least, has some Convair nuclear powered aircraft stuff. Figured that must be it, the guy being from General Dynamicws and all.
But then I got this message from a contact who worked at KSC:
"However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we took them down and shredded them."
WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?
-- ------- The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken
<scottlowt...@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote: >"However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control >Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our >office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the >Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public >relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing >the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all >covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him >some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not >care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we >took them down and shredded them."
...Fuck'im. Send *me* copies, and I'll post them on my website, daring the catamite to order me to take them down. I'll be more than happy to explain where he can shove his insane attitude.
>WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?
...Have you contacted him yet about this?
OM -- ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
>...Fuck'im. Send *me* copies, and I'll post them on my website,
Well, now, that *would* tend to defeat the whole purpose in *selling* them on CD-ROM. However, if you've bought a copy, and they come down on me like a hammer and make me stop selling them (though I'm not quite sure how they could do that), then, why, I can hardly say as that I'd be odffended at them popping up online.
>>WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?
>...Have you contacted him yet about this?
No. But Monday comes, and their trouble *is* the Saturn drawings... you damned betcha I'll be contacting him. Right after I get done laughing my ass off. Unless they send me to federal PMITA prison for selling 40-year-old drawings of long obsolete launch vehicles.
-- ------- The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken
<scottlowt...@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote: > While I was out today, a voicemail came in from a General Dynamics > Export Control Compliance guy at NASA/KSC. Wanted to ahve a chat with me > about my web page here:http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocspace.htm
> Didn't leave details, and by the time I heard the message, he had long > since left for the weekend. So I get to wait until Monday, I suppose.
> So I did the obvious thing... lookeda t that page to see what was on > there that might be ITAR-problematic. I don;t see nuthin' but mostly > Saturn stuff, witha bit of Shuttle and Dyna Soar. I figured maybe he > got the wrong page, and instead meant this page:http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocair.htm
> That, at least, has some Convair nuclear powered aircraft stuff. Figured > that must be it, the guy being from General Dynamicws and all.
> But then I got this message from a contact who worked at KSC:
> "However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control > Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our > office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the > Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public > relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing > the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all > covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him > some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not > care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we > took them down and shredded them."
> WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?
I got into some hotwater for Shuttle display software. When did they start putting people on ICBMs that need displays? This is all documented in my book, "Houston, You Have a Problem" that you can download at www.dannydeger.net The summary is: ANY data on a launch vehicle is ITAR.
Danny Deger wrote: > The summary is: ANY data on a launch
>vehicle is ITAR.
That's a bit loopy. It would imply that a *photo* of a Shuttle is ITAR. It would imply that mentioning that the Saturn I had a payload of X lbs to Y orbit is ITAR. Even when said data comes from public domain sources.
-- ------- The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken
> "However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control > Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our > office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the > Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA > public relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters > showing the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they > were all covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept > telling him some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but > he did not care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop > until we took them down and shredded them."
> WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?
You just can't make this shit up, can you? This reminds me of them taking the Fat Man and Little Boy off display at the National Atomic Museum because some terrorist might learn how to make a nuclear weapon by studying them. "So that's what we've been doing wrong! The fins go at the _back_ end!" Somebody might want to point out to them that the Saturn V, and all drawings of the Saturn V, were financed by taxpayers as part of a civilian space project by a civilian agency, and therefore are public property every bit as much as photos taken on the Moon's surface by the astronauts are. They are probably concerned that Iran or China will back-engineer a Saturn V from the drawings and get to the Moon before we return. This administration is completely off its rocker when it comes to security and classifying things. Most of this seems to emanate from Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is clinically mentally unbalanced.
Pat Flannery wrote: > This administration is completely off its rocker when it comes to > security and classifying things. Most of this seems to emanate from > Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is > clinically mentally unbalanced.
A lot of the ITAR nuttiness arose in the 1990's. Last I checked, this administration wasn't around in the 90's.
-- ------- The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken
>> This administration is completely off its rocker when it comes to >> security and classifying things. Most of this seems to emanate from >> Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is >> clinically mentally unbalanced.
> A lot of the ITAR nuttiness arose in the 1990's. Last I checked, this > administration wasn't around in the 90's.
Ahem,
That's not for you to say, citizen. While we strive to keep the American people as informed as possible, the exact dates of our Administration as well as today's calendar date and even the color of the sky are topics we cannot discuss outside an executive session with properly cleared personnel. To openly talk about these matters is a security breach of the most critical nature and those who attempt to, for instance, fix an exact date of this administration's arrival as well as its departure date are, to put it simply, traitors. I trust you do not want to be included in that category. Good. I'm glad we had this little talk. Run along now.
Yer pal, Dick.
Seriously, gift shop Saturn V posters? GIFT SHOP SATURN V POSTERS? The Freakshow Junta's contractor is trying to reclassify GIFT SHOP SATURN V POSTERS and your response is to snark about Clinton?
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 01:29:07 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
>They are probably concerned that Iran or China will back-engineer a >Saturn V from the drawings and get to the Moon before we return. >This administration is completely off its rocker when it comes to >security and classifying things. Most of this seems to emanate from >Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is clinically >mentally unbalanced.
I think there's a lot more evidence of that for you than for Dick Cheney.
Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> writes: >Somebody might want to point out to them that the Saturn V, and all >drawings of the Saturn V, were financed by taxpayers as part of a >civilian space project by a civilian agency, and therefore are public >property every bit as much as photos taken on the Moon's surface by the >astronauts are. >They are probably concerned that Iran or China will back-engineer a >Saturn V from the drawings and get to the Moon before we return.
Better check and make sure no one has stolen one of the display units.
I've alerted the Smithsonian Police; no cameras or rulers allowed near the you-know-what engine...
-- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8...@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
:> :> :> WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks? : :You just can't make this shit up, can you? :
And you don't have to. Just read the bloody regulation.
: :Somebody might want to point out to them that the Saturn V, and all :drawings of the Saturn V, were financed by taxpayers as part of a :civilian space project by a civilian agency, and therefore are public :property every bit as much as photos taken on the Moon's surface by the :astronauts are. :
This is the silliest 'logic' I've ever heard. The taxpayers finance all sorts of things. A lot of them are various and assorted bits of nastiness that we're pretty careful about letting the wrong people have. Even the 'public property' because it was a 'civilian agency' argument is silly. That 'public' is US CITIZENS, not 'property of the world'. Such things are still subject to ITAR, just as your own private property is.
: :They are probably concerned that Iran or China will back-engineer a :Saturn V from the drawings and get to the Moon before we return. :This administration is completely off its rocker when it comes to :security and classifying things.
This administration didn't write the ITAR regulations. Go read them.
: :Most of this seems to emanate from :Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is clinically :mentally unbalanced. :
Any evidence for any part of that last claim? Or is it just your own mental imbalance from your own ideological hatreds?
-- "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is only stupid." -- Heinrich Heine
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 16:17:10 GMT, in a place far, far away, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
>:Most of this seems to emanate from >:Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is clinically >:mentally unbalanced. >:
>Any evidence for any part of that last claim? Or is it just your own >mental imbalance from your own ideological hatreds?
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:31:13 GMT, Scott Lowther > <scottlowt...@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
> >"However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control > >Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our > >office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the > >Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public > >relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing > >the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all > >covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him > >some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not > >care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we > >took them down and shredded them."
> ...Fuck'im. Send *me* copies, and I'll post them on my website, daring > the catamite to order me to take them down. I'll be more than happy to > explain where he can shove his insane attitude.
Technology leakage of ballistic missiles is the single largest threat to the security of the United States. And if for a moment you would stop and think before speaking such ignorant statements. You might realize that if the agency with the responsibility of enforcing such technology protections were grossly understaffed, it might not have the time to sit and engage in lengthly arguments with each and every joe blow over his favorite poster.
And simply ban anything and everything even remotely close to violation as a time saving measure and with no discussion allowed.
I find it rather comforting to know that when it comes to national security our govt errs on the side of caution.
> >WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?
> ...Have you contacted him yet about this?
> OM > -- > ]=====================================[ > ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ > ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ > ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ > ]=====================================[
> > "However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control > > Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our > > office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the > > Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA > > public relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters > > showing the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they > > were all covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept > > telling him some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but > > he did not care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop > > until we took them down and shredded them."
> > WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?
> You just can't make this shit up, can you? > This reminds me of them taking the Fat Man and Little Boy off display at > the National Atomic Museum because some terrorist might learn how to > make a nuclear weapon by studying them. "So that's what we've been doing > wrong! The fins go at the _back_ end!" > Somebody might want to point out to them that the Saturn V, and all > drawings of the Saturn V, were financed by taxpayers as part of a > civilian space project by a civilian agency, and therefore are public > property every bit as much as photos taken on the Moon's surface by the > astronauts are. > They are probably concerned that Iran or China will back-engineer a > Saturn V from the drawings and get to the Moon before we return. > This administration is completely off its rocker when it comes to > security and classifying things. Most of this seems to emanate from > Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is clinically > mentally unbalanced.
That's life in Bush's Amerika. No doubt some 'pug will now post an explanation of how this is all actually Bill Kkkklinton's fault.
>> :Most of this seems to emanate from >> :Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is clinically >> :mentally unbalanced. >> :
>> Any evidence for any part of that last claim? Or is it just your own >> mental imbalance from your own ideological hatreds?
> Got it in one.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20070319&s=cottle031907 He thinks Iraq has reconstituted it's WMD program; the CIA investigates and says it hasn't; he says the CIA is wrong and he knows it has. After invading we find out the CIA was right. He thinks Al-Qaeda is being trained in Iraq; the CIA investigates and says that's not the case; he says the CIA is wrong and he knows it has. After we invade it turns out that the CIA was right. He thinks Iraq is secretly importing uranium from Africa; the CIA investigates and says the report is bogus, he says the CIA is wrong and he knows the report is true. After we invade, we find out that the CIA was right. This sounds a lot like Dick Cheney is a clinical paranoid. This Newsweek article touches on that: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19886673/site/newsweek/ He spends most of his time worrying about threats to America that are constantly forming out there in the darkness somewhere. Something bad is going to happen soon and he's the only one who suspects it and can guard us all against it. Has his house been infected with anthrax? Nope. But it could happen next week if we're not all very careful. He reads all of the intelligence reports, no matter how minor or unreliable. He knew that "Curveball" was right about those Iraqi portable biological weapon trailers. Except "Curveball" was full of crap, and a fraud. He's the only one that can see the whole truth; that can put all the pieces together. Who knows that there are really _two_ keys and someone has _stolen_ all those strawberries from the U.S.S. Caine's food stocks. I don't know exactly what the founding fathers had in mind for the office of the VP (neither did they for that matter; the whole office is only vaguely described in the Constitution) but something like a scheming Grand Vizier who is always trying to thwart the constantly evolving possible plans of Ali Baba to raise evil Djinn and overthrow the kingdom while the dim-witted Sultan wanders around the throne room and drools, it probably wasn't.
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 01:29:07 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat > Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in > such a way as to indicate that:
>>They are probably concerned that Iran or China will back-engineer a >>Saturn V from the drawings and get to the Moon before we return. >>This administration is completely off its rocker when it comes to >>security and classifying things. Most of this seems to emanate from >>Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is clinically >>mentally unbalanced.
> I think there's a lot more evidence of that for you than for Dick > Cheney.
Oh I don't know. When one day he's claiming executive privilege and the next he's claiming the VP's office isn't part of the executive branch, does make you wonder. (I note since the threat of defunding his office was made he hasn't really tried to force that particular claim. :-)
Jonathan wrote: >Technology leakage of ballistic missiles is the single largest >threat to the security of the United States.
Which has nothing to do with *this* instance. The drawings I've been trying to sell are virtually the same as drawings being sold at the US Space and Rocket Center gift shop... and *less* useful than drawings produced by Weeks. The drawings I have are *not* useful for ballistic missile design. These are drawings *published* by NASA in the open press.
>I find it rather comforting to know that when it comes to >national security our govt errs on the side of caution.
Ah.... Sandy Berger.
-- ------- The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:59:33 GMT, in a place far, far away, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deletet...@greenms.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
>>>They are probably concerned that Iran or China will back-engineer a >>>Saturn V from the drawings and get to the Moon before we return. >>>This administration is completely off its rocker when it comes to >>>security and classifying things. Most of this seems to emanate from >>>Cheney's office, who I am becoming increasingly convinced is clinically >>>mentally unbalanced.
>> I think there's a lot more evidence of that for you than for Dick >> Cheney.
>Oh I don't know. When one day he's claiming executive privilege and the >next he's claiming the VP's office isn't part of the executive branch, does >make you wonder.
Not much. At least not compared to the lunacy that Pat spews on a regular basis.
richard schumacher wrote: > That's life in Bush's Amerika. No doubt some 'pug will now post an > explanation of how this is all actually Bill Kkkklinton's fault.
They've already done that. And I'm insane BTW. :-D
>"OM" <om@all_trolls_must_DIE.com> wrote in message >news:va5la399mgjnsnd8qqvhq92sjasrefj7bv@4ax.com... >> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:31:13 GMT, Scott Lowther >> <scottlowt...@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote:
>> >"However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control >> >Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our >> >office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the >> >Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public >> >relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing >> >the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all >> >covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him >> >some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not >> >care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we >> >took them down and shredded them."
>> ...Fuck'im. Send *me* copies, and I'll post them on my website, daring >> the catamite to order me to take them down. I'll be more than happy to >> explain where he can shove his insane attitude.
>Technology leakage of ballistic missiles is the single largest >threat to the security of the United States. And if for a moment >you would stop and think before speaking such ignorant >statements. You might realize that if the agency with the >responsibility of enforcing such technology protections were >grossly understaffed, it might not have the time to sit and engage >in lengthly arguments with each and every joe blow over his >favorite poster.
>And simply ban anything and everything even remotely close >to violation as a time saving measure and with no discussion >allowed.
>I find it rather comforting to know that when it comes to >national security our govt errs on the side of caution.
Uh yeah. Which is why I was able to download a 330 page writeup on Peacekeeper complete with drawings of many deployment schemes studied, another one on HiBEX and LoADS (ABM systems) and so forth. All from the Defense Technical Information Center. So where's the rational of hounding someone about having civilian stuff out there for download when all the while you (the government that is) have all this MILITARY stuff out there for the taking?
> Oh I don't know. When one day he's claiming executive privilege and the > next he's claiming the VP's office isn't part of the executive branch, does > make you wonder. (I note since the threat of defunding his office was made > he hasn't really tried to force that particular claim. :-)
Hasn't produced a list of those classified documents yet either. I'm still snickering about Alberto Gonzales' sworn testimony, which held up for around...what was it? 24 hours this time? Next time around, I imagine it will collapse right while he's being questioned:
"Mr. Attorney General, what is the weather at the moment?" "Clear blue skies." "Then why are you carrying a umbrella?" "Because it's raining." "The sky is blue, and yet it's raining?" "Yes." "How can that be?" "I don't know." "Did someone tell you it was clear today instead of raining?" "I can't say." "Did you talk to anyone about the weather today?" "If I did, it certainly wasn't about whether it was raining." "What did you talk about in regards to the weather then?" "Something else, but not rain." "What exactly?" "Something classified." :-P
Could someone who knows about ITAR give us a quick tutorial on what the enforcement procedures are?
Assuming (which I think unlikely given that this has now gotten out into the public realm) the guy who called Scott decides to report a possible violation back to the State Department, probably through NASA channels, what happens next? Obviously State has to decide whether the report has merit -- but if they do, can they levy fines, send in SWAT teams etc. on their own or do they have to persuade DHS or DOJ to actually apply the muscle?
This assumes, of course, that the preferred extralegal methods (threats to employment and livelihood, typically) are not available and that some sort of legal route would have to be used.
> Uh yeah. Which is why I was able to download a 330 page writeup on > Peacekeeper complete with drawings of many deployment schemes studied, > another one on HiBEX and LoADS (ABM systems) and so forth. All from > the Defense Technical Information Center. So where's the rational of > hounding someone about having civilian stuff out there for download > when all the while you (the government that is) have all this MILITARY > stuff out there for the taking?
I guess if you wanted to build a F-1 engined super ICBM... It never occurred to me before, but I wonder if this is why Rusty Barton's ballistic missile websites vanished from the web?
thoms...@flash.net wrote: >This assumes, of course, that the preferred extralegal methods >(threats to employment and livelihood, typically) are not available...
Heh. Given that the document/drawing biz, along with eAPR and my model biz, *are* my sole sources of income.... they would either have an incredibly easy time of damaging my employment, or incredibly hard. They could try to talk my boss into bitchslapping me, but since I *am* my boss....
-- ------- The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken
<scottlowt...@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOK.com> wrote: > Heh. Given that the document/drawing biz, along with eAPR and my model > biz, *are* my sole sources of income.... they would either have an > incredibly easy time of damaging my employment, or incredibly hard. They > could try to talk my boss into bitchslapping me, but since I *am* my > boss....
I've watched things like this for some while, and I think that things outside the traditional coercible employer/employee paradigm are kind of head-exploding for people in authoritarian positions. And I doubt that a State Dept. or DoJ lawyer would come close to pursuing your case if it got that far -- which it likely won't.
But please do keep us informed if anything further comes of this.
