Postdoc experience
Reza
specifically, is the institution well recognized in the scientific
community?
Detector195
> Is Harvard School of Public Health a good place to do Postdoc at.
> specifically, is the institution well recognized in the scientific
> community?
Harvard is probably first tier in every field. Far more importantly,
is who you will be working for. Your goal is to get a publication
list, your own fundable research proposal (with proof of concept if
possible), and 3 glowing letters of recommendation from "household
name" scientists in your field. Your vitae has to show that you are
competent and motivated beyond what a rational person would consider
necessary. Thus, you have to figure out if your boss is reputable and
capable of helping you assemble the other pieces of this puzzle.
Child Taker
> Your goal is to get a publication
> list, your own fundable research proposal (with proof of concept if
> possible), and 3 glowing letters of recommendation
... and you have to bust your ass for all of this only to be able to
get another postdoc position. And then you are 40 y.o., your ass is as
busted as if it has been had by 10 puffs every day for 20 years, and
no PI wants you for postdoc anymore inspite of your track-record of
experience of a Nobel laureate... and you start being very sorry that
your parents let you think "science" in your teens instead of thinking
"business". Some former postdocs manage to get into business, but most
people break; some broken people go into alcoholism and domestic
violence, some go into mental institutions.
Regards,
V.
ChemStudent
You have missed one more option,namely, brake through the wall, become
a famous scientist, get your own lab with a bunch of slaves working
for their microscopic chance to succeed, write 100th of proposals of
questionable value for humanity, get 10th of them funded, write 100th
of papers of questionable value for humanity plus several ones of some
value, graduate 10-20 of the future frustrated Ph.d.s cursing the day
they desided to get that degree + several ones who will easily swim in
the shark infested waters of the science and will like it. Notice, how
many deplorable things one should make to 1) make several small
contribution to science and (hopefully) to humanity 2) train 1-2
people who will more or less repeat your success and contributions to
science. All PIs should feel terrible on their deathbead, so many
wrecked lives were left behind, so little of the really important
stuff was done. After complicated calculations, one may conclude that
PI's efficiency is much lower than that of a steam engine. You should
feel sorry for those who succeed not for those who fell out.
> Regards,
> V.
R. Martin
>
> plop...@hotmail.com (Child Taker) wrote in message news:<3d890eb7.03091...@posting.google.com>...
> > Detec...@yahoo.com (Detector195) wrote in message
> >
> > > Your goal is to get a publication
> > > list, your own fundable research proposal (with proof of concept if
> > > possible), and 3 glowing letters of recommendation
> >
> > ... and you have to bust your ass for all of this only to be able to
> > get another postdoc position. And then you are 40 y.o., your ass is as
> > busted as if it has been had by 10 puffs every day for 20 years, and
> > no PI wants you for postdoc anymore inspite of your track-record of
> > experience of a Nobel laureate... and you start being very sorry that
> > your parents let you think "science" in your teens instead of thinking
> > "business". Some former postdocs manage to get into business, but most
> > people break; some broken people go into alcoholism and domestic
> > violence, some go into mental institutions.
>
> You have missed one more option,namely, brake through the wall, become
> a famous scientist, get your own lab with a bunch of slaves working
> for their microscopic chance to succeed, write 100th of proposals of
> questionable value for humanity, get 10th of them funded, write 100th
> of papers of questionable value for humanity plus several ones of some
> value, graduate 10-20 of the future frustrated Ph.d.s cursing the day
> they desided to get that degree + several ones who will easily swim in
> the shark infested waters of the science and will like it.
Easier said than done, like getting rich by following the advice "buy
low, sell high". ;-)
> Notice, how
> many deplorable things one should make to 1) make several small
> contribution to science and (hopefully) to humanity 2) train 1-2
> people who will more or less repeat your success and contributions to
> science. All PIs should feel terrible on their deathbead, so many
> wrecked lives were left behind, so little of the really important
> stuff was done. After complicated calculations, one may conclude that
> PI's efficiency is much lower than that of a steam engine. You should
> feel sorry for those who succeed not for those who fell out.
Whew, that's a grim assessment, even for this NG. Not to deny
there may be some truth to what you write, but I'm reasonbly sure
that the PI's I was a grad student under didn't wreck too many
lives that I'm aware of, since almost all of their students that I'm
acquainted with (which is quite a few) have gone on to fairly
successful professional lives (by the measure of having decent
jobs in science if that was what they wanted, publishing at least
the occasional paper, etc.). Even I, the worst failure I know
of from those groups as measured by those criteria, have managed
to make a living (so far) and do a bit of research. Of course,
there are other types of "wreckage", but I'm not in a position
to know everything about everyone. Still, in the past I have
wondered about the efficiency of science as a human enterprise,
but nothing has 100% efficiency. In 100 billion years or so
heat death of the universe will happen and it won't matter any
more anyway. (How's that for grim?)
Regards,
Russell
ChemStudent
I have tried to be ironic. Sorry, next time I'll be better more successful in that.
> Regards,
> Russell
brandon_z
> there may be some truth to what you write, but I'm reasonbly sure
> that the PI's I was a grad student under didn't wreck too many
> lives that I'm aware of, since almost all of their students that I'm
> acquainted with (which is quite a few) have gone on to fairly
> successful professional lives (by the measure of having decent
> jobs in science if that was what they wanted, publishing at least
> the occasional paper, etc.).
Well I am sure they all live somehow and manage to feed themsselves.
That is not the point.
Art Sowers
> Date: 14 Sep 2003 01:01:31 -0700
> From: brandon_z <brando...@yahoo.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
> Subject: Re: Postdoc experience
Earlier this year, the biologists' magazine "The Scientist" had a poll on
postdoc experiences and my recollection is that about 1/3 were openly very
unhappy with their situation. If you can get to an archives and search
back to the spring, I think I cite a few quotes. The book "The PhD
Process" which is reviewed on my website also gives stories about
unhappiness even in grad school.
A study that would be useful but I think has not yet been written would be
to ask PhDs in their 30s-40s-50s to reminisce about their past and write
essays that would honestly look back and talk about, specifically, their
own experiences and expectations while they were grad students and
postdocs and what they _thought_ they were going to get in terms of
careers and what they _actually_ ended up doing and why and if they had
any recommendations for those who want to try it themselves.
My own experience and expectations when I was in the grad student-postdoc
pipeline was that the crap was worth putting up with if it led to a stable
and long term career. Unfortunately this did not happen and my career
ended involuntarily about 14 years after it started. My Frequently UnAsked
Questions has references and citations, and the books reviewed in the book
review section (see by Karen Kreeger and Cynthia Robbins-Roth) that
indicate a large fraction of PhDs actually head away from PhD-requiring
jobs/careers anyway. Even more to the point, there has been over the last
good two decades a sea change shift towards lower job security for PhDs
anyway. More and more academic institutions are hiring on 'temp'
appointments instead of tenure track appointments and even the ones that
still have tenure track appointments have re-defined them so that tenure,
itself is either temporary, subject to 'tenure-review' (tenure gets
'removed' in, they say, 3% of all tenured appointments), and/or the
appointment is tenured but the salary is not tenured or if it is, its a
fraction of the maximum payable and thus your paycheck depends on grants
and/or contracts and if you lose the grant or contract your paycheck
shrinks a lot or in some cases disappears altogether. And, thus, after you
fall through the trap door in the floor, sliding down the chute into the
dumpster out behind the administration building, then what do you do?
Now, this is the bad news story. Some readers don't like to hear me tell
this. So, for counter balance, let me acknowledge that there are a few
institutions left that have traditional tenure with traditional tenure
conditions and if you can get that, then fine. You will have been
successful. Its also possible that many who are in that enviable situation
could still be unhappy because of many political factors that they cannot
escape because they will be too old and search committees always look for
fresh-new young PhDs to hire. So, I think the unhappy ending is the more
likely ending than the happy ending. Maybe that is why we like to go to
the movies; in the movies its the good guys that win (and get the girl)
and the bad guys that get blown away (eg. James Bond movies). In real life
its the other way around (eg. Enron/Andersen overlings who laugh going to
the bank vs. the rest of the underlings living under, or have to move to,
under the bridge).
Arthur E. Sowers, PhD
stra...@sdf.lonestar.org
Sci Career Information Website: http://scijobs.freeshell.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
R. Martin
OK, what was the point, that every action has both potenially good
and bad consequences?
Regards,
Russell
R. Martin
OK.
Regards,
Russell
Detector195
> ...indicate a large fraction of PhDs actually head away from PhD-requiring
> jobs/careers anyway.
Name a PhD-requiring job outside of academia.
Detector195
> Whew, that's a grim assessment, even for this NG. Not to deny
> there may be some truth to what you write, but I'm reasonbly sure
> that the PI's I was a grad student under didn't wreck too many
> lives that I'm aware of...
I gotta agree here. My advisor left no wrecked lives behind. His
students have, for the most part, prospered. We did not all aspire to
become professors. I changed career ambitions halfway through a thesis
project that proved to be way over my head. My advisor helped me
cobble together a new project that was heavily application oriented,
after which I jumped straight into industry without doing a post-doc.
Josh Halpern
Detector195 wrote:
Not to disagree in general, but flipping open the issue of Science on my
desk I see an
ad from Hoffmann-LaRoche for a modeling and simulation scientist, an ad
from Amgen for
an associate director antibody technologies group, etc.
josh halpern
Russell Martin
It seems that National Security Advisors have PhDs (ala Dr. Rice, Dr.
Kissinger). I'm not sure it is a "requirement", but then I've never
seen the formal job ad published (Wanted: National Security Advisor.
Must be able to spin whatever action the President decides to take,
even if it is against the advice of every sane advisor he has.
Extensive travel required. Apply to White House, 1600 Pennsylvania
Ave., Washington, DC. :-) ).
Regards,
Russell
Child Taker
> I gotta agree here. My advisor left no wrecked lives behind. His
> students have, for the most part, prospered. We did not all aspire to
> become professors. I changed career ambitions halfway through a thesis
> project that proved to be way over my head. My advisor helped me
> cobble together a new project that was heavily application oriented,
> after which I jumped straight into industry without doing a post-doc.
If your PhD and "postdoc" time was al'right, then it is hard for me to
imagine, Detector, how you were able to make such a picturesque
description of the vows of a PhD/postdoc student life.
My PhD advsior brought cheaply hordes of PhD students from Asia and
made them working hard for stipends of amount less or equal to
unemployment benefit. I won't describe the horrors of my life under
him -- they are described by me in details earlier. I will only say
that my advisor justified the doing of hard work by students according
to his tight directions by emphasizing the importance of getting a
good recommendation letter from him. Well, I got the good letter...
but I could find no employer to get interested to look at it. After
obtaining a PhD, I spent 1 year unemployed, and got a Research
Assistant (non-PhD-requiring) job afterwards.
At the moment, my final dream job is to operate the giant glowing-hot
frying pan in the other world -- I will let the former PhD/postdoc
advisors run around on it with bare feet. Sometimes, if I deem that
they are not suffering enough, I will knock them off their feet... I
would not even take money for the job.
;-E
Regards,
V.
Daniel A. Tefera
I can hardly understand ppl who tend to evaluate school life (doing PhD and
PostDoc) only based on the possible turn overs. For me, it is kinda straight
forward: if you wanted just to learn and possibly come up with some thing
new to satisfy your zest to be on the for front of whatever is going in this
ever changing world you better be around school. But if your dreams are
making a lot of money then you should work for someone or if you have what
it takes come up with a venture company or so. However, just to make living
I don't think you need even to go to school (any school for that matter).
I, for one, would love to do research (especially love to be around school).
Right now, I am working for a development company but I wish I could get
back to school. Frank enough, and contrary to what many said on this news
group, I feel vain... Unfortunately I couldn't spot a good postdoctoral
position. From what I checked up (a couple of openings) many of you are
right what I could get will be much lower than what I am making right now.
It is not Murphy's law thing but I would prefer to work for less if there is
a better satisfaction there.
Well, what I am trying to say is you might have a good point but what you
say is not the whole truth though you made it sound like one.
Best,
daniel
"Child Taker" <plop...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d890eb7.03091...@posting.google.com...
Art Sowers
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:34:08 GMT
> From: Josh Halpern <j.ha...@incoming.verizon.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
> Subject: Re: Postdoc experience
>
>
>
Yes, and also in quite a few federal jobs, national laboratory jobs,
military jobs (either for civilian rank or military rank [yes, the
military does hire civilians]) as well as industrial/commercial labs, the
job announcement will say something like "PhD in X required" or "PhD or
equivalent doctoral degree" etc.
Art Sowers
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:11:41 GMT
> From: Daniel A. Tefera <da...@jcom.home.ne.jp>
> Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
> Subject: Re: Postdoc experience
>
> Dear all,
>
> I can hardly understand ppl who tend to evaluate school life (doing PhD and
> PostDoc) only based on the possible turn overs. For me, it is kinda straight
> forward: if you wanted just to learn and possibly come up with some thing
> new to satisfy your zest to be on the for front of whatever is going in this
> ever changing world you better be around school. But if your dreams are
> making a lot of money then you should work for someone or if you have what
> it takes come up with a venture company or so. However, just to make living
> I don't think you need even to go to school (any school for that matter).
>
> I, for one, would love to do research (especially love to be around school).
> Right now, I am working for a development company but I wish I could get
> back to school. Frank enough, and contrary to what many said on this news
> group, I feel vain... Unfortunately I couldn't spot a good postdoctoral
> position. From what I checked up (a couple of openings) many of you are
> right what I could get will be much lower than what I am making right now.
> It is not Murphy's law thing but I would prefer to work for less if there is
> a better satisfaction there.
>
> Well, what I am trying to say is you might have a good point but what you
> say is not the whole truth though you made it sound like one.
First, if you want to spot a good postdoctoral position, then I have an
essay on my website that explains this.
Second, there is nothing in what you wrote above to indicate how much
tertiary education you ever received except for the remark that you wish
you could get back to school. I'd ask "for what do you wish to get back to
school?" I have no idea why you disrespect the testimony of those who
found the "back to school" experience as less than the heavenly
expectation that you seem to have. Yes, there is a fraction that feel the
experience was good, but why do you discount the fraction that report the
experience as bad? Why do you seem to think that after this "back to
school" that you are expecting that "better satisfaction" is automatically
going to drop in your lap? The facts are that this outcome (the "better
satisfaction") is NOT going to automatically drop in your lap. In fact,
the probability is not very high and I have the references to works
authored and published by people other than me on my website under the
Frequently UnAsked Questions and I titled that essay that way because
quite a few people are just not asking the right questions when they look
in their graduate school catalogues and dream about the easter bunny and
the tooth fairy.
Arthur E. Sowers, PhD
stra...@sdf.lonestar.org
Sci Career Information Website: http://scijobs.freeshell.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
> best,
Arthur E. Sowers, PhD
stra...@sdf.lonestar.org
Sci Career Information Website: http://scijobs.freeshell.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
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86
R. Martin
>
> Dear all,
>
> I can hardly understand ppl who tend to evaluate school life (doing PhD and
> PostDoc) only based on the possible turn overs. For me, it is kinda straight
> forward: if you wanted just to learn and possibly come up with some thing
> new to satisfy your zest to be on the for front of whatever is going in this
> ever changing world you better be around school. But if your dreams are
> making a lot of money then you should work for someone or if you have what
> it takes come up with a venture company or so. However, just to make living
> I don't think you need even to go to school (any school for that matter).
The choices shouldn't have to be mutually exclusive, IMO. I don't
want to make a vast fortune, but I do want to feed and house my
family, send my child to college, retire someplace other than
under a bridge. I think I have a shot at the first two, not the
last. I spent plenty of years around school, pursuing knowledge
and trying to add to it, which I dearly love doing, which is why
I won't make it to a comfortable retirement. But no one ever said
science was the equivalent of a monk taking a vow of proverty. Quite
the opposite was the case when I was growing up. If one was smart
and worked hard, one could obtain the American Dream be being a
scientist, and do so under better working conditions than our
fathers had in factories (and my mother had waitressing at a local
greasy spoon).
Regards,
Russell
Detector195
Okay, you convinced me. I was just curious. Maybe it depends on your
field, and I acknowledge that the life sciences are the largest field
right now. When I was a grad student in physics, people advised me
that very few private sector jobs would actually require a PhD,
especially for people coming straight out of school.
And the number of "jobs requiring a PhD" may not be a measure of a
healthy job market. After all, the archetypal PhD-requiring job is a
post-doc. It may simply be the result of a glut of PhDs.
Detector195
> the opposite was the case when I was growing up. If one was smart
> and worked hard, one could obtain the American Dream be being a
> scientist, and do so under better working conditions than our
> fathers had in factories (and my mother had waitressing at a local
> greasy spoon).
But I wonder if this is the condition of the economy in general. My
dad was able to support a family on one income. Many people did that.
Today, it is unthinkable.
Art Sowers
> Date: 15 Sep 2003 18:54:49 -0700
> From: Detector195 <Detec...@yahoo.com>
Some of the best measures of the job market include:
1. Ratio of applicants to jobs (not uncommonly in the 100s to 500
applications per job, but even in better job markets you're still talking
about 25-50 per job).
2. Finding out if it takes 6-12 months, or more, for the average guy to
get some kind of job offer. That's _one_ job offer out of a few interviews
and still like 50-150 applications.
3. Find out if a lot of job openings exist but they are only filling a few
of them (and even with a large number of applicants [i.e. they don't like
the applicant pool and are re-opening the search]) or they are rejecting
everyone because of unrealistic expectations (i.e. they want a Jesus
Christ and not just a human being).
4. A nasty characteristic which has appeared recently: importing cheap
labor on H1B & L1 visas (most computer & call center jobs) or just
exporting the job to India, China, etc. There are lots of stories of
American guys being told to teach their job to a recently imported H1B,
then after the training period, they fire the American. And they pay the
imported guys $10K-$20K less per year, maybe even far less per year. I
hear they can hire Indians in India for $2K-5K per year, rarely more.
Phillips (the electronics outfit) earlier this year is dumping tons of
money into China to set up a R&D center. Some labs in the USA have shut
down (DuPont in Wilmington, DE) or downsized (Lucent, Burroughs Welcome,
Roche Molec Bio in Nutly, NJ, and others).
5. Age discrimination is still there. Over 40 and you're a target. Over 50
and you'll take much longer to find a new job...if you are lucky.
I've seen adverts for PhD-requiring jobs in sci/eng/tech fields even in
the Wall Street Journal, NY Times, and Wash Post. For the civil servant &
govt jobs, you have to go to the agency (websites and/or phone calls) and
dig it up the hard way. The openings are often posted internally and not
necessarily in the easy-to-find newspapers but there are exceptions.
Marc
"Reza" <aro...@anri.barc.usda.gov> wrote in message
news:3dec0169.03091...@posting.google.com...
> Is Harvard School of Public Health a good place to do Postdoc at.
> specifically, is the institution well recognized in the scientific
> community?
yes. But of course your particular lab, its reputation, quality of research
etc. is a more important consideration. Also, Boston is rapidly becoming the
#1 center for pharmaceutical and biotech research in the US, and is a very
good place to relocate if you are going to look for a job in these areas.
Cost of living is high though.
Russell Martin
Yes, I think that to a significant part it is, which just means that
in addition to people who spent 4 years in college and 5 in grad
school and have not gotten the ROI, if you will, that they thought
they would, many others in society who have done what they thought
constituted a good pursuit of the American Dream have gotten less
than they were lead to believe they would get. I posted a link to an
article about the people at, now bankrupt, Pillowtex a few weeks ago.
Mostly high school grads who went to work at the local factory, like
their parents did, got married, had kids, bought houses like their
parents, who are now out of work and can't pay the mortgage. Things
change, that's true, but things that are changing in ways that they
wouldn't have to for many people, while rich people are doing better
than ever (except a few of the ones who get caught ;-) ).
Regards,
Russell
m. lamphier
> Dear all,
>
> I can hardly understand ppl who tend to evaluate school life (doing PhD and
> PostDoc) only based on the possible turn overs. For me, it is kinda straight
> forward: if you wanted just to learn and possibly come up with some thing
> new to satisfy your zest to be on the for front of whatever is going in this
> ever changing world you better be around school. But if your dreams are
> making a lot of money then you should work for someone or if you have what
> it takes come up with a venture company or so. However, just to make living
> I don't think you need even to go to school (any school for that matter).
>
> I, for one, would love to do research (especially love to be around school).
> Right now, I am working for a development company but I wish I could get
> back to school. Frank enough, and contrary to what many said on this news
> group, I feel vain... Unfortunately I couldn't spot a good postdoctoral
> position. From what I checked up (a couple of openings) many of you are
> right what I could get will be much lower than what I am making right now.
> It is not Murphy's law thing but I would prefer to work for less if there is
> a better satisfaction there.
>
> Well, what I am trying to say is you might have a good point but what you
> say is not the whole truth though you made it sound like one.
>
> Best,
> daniel
I notice you are posting from Japan. What are you doing there? I did
all of my postdoctoral work in Japan plus a few years in a research
position.
There is pretty good funding for foreign researchers who want to
pursue academic studies in Japan, both at grad school or postdoc
level. What are you interested in doing?
-Marc
Detector195
Good point. One potential use of a post doc is to get you out of a
locale where there are no good jobs (e.g. the sticks) and provide a
base of operations for a serious job hunt in a region wiht more
employment. It is easier to job hunt when you have a job, even if it
is not your first choice of jobs, and easier to get an informal
interview if you don't have to fly somewhere.
Daniel A. Tefera
Where were you? And/or are you still in Japan?
I did my PhD in computer vision and now I am working in the information
industry in Tokyo. Any advices? I would be delighted to have some.
Best,
-daniel
"m. lamphier" <mlam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:53fc9e0a.03091...@posting.google.com...
Marc
> Dear Marc,
>
> Where were you? And/or are you still in Japan?
> I did my PhD in computer vision and now I am working in the information
> industry in Tokyo. Any advices? I would be delighted to have some.
> Best,
> -daniel
I'll try your email. I am best reached at mlamph at yahoo mail.
-Marc