For Kamal: the two critical advantages India has
dead_professor
teeming with lazy idiots. But hey, they're *our* idiots! It is one
thing for us to call them slovenly idiots, quite another for someone
from outside to do it. I will reflexively defend them when an
outsider with a towering ego and an offhand dismissive arrogant way
attacks them. He would have it different? NO loyalty to country? NO
patriotism? Oh ya, that is a sure recipe for success... I don't know
what he wants us to do--other than just open our borders completely
and give up entirely.
Now, from where I stand, I see India as having two key structural
advantages: [potentially] extremely low cost of living and a positive
derivative, in terms of progress.
About the cost of living: that is the key thing here which makes
American programmers (and scientists and the like) uncompetitive
internationally. They have as good people, but they can work in a
high rise and a few blocks away one can find a way to live extremely
cheaply. There is nowhere in the US you can find that. The last
place was the non-urban midwest, which is why Gateway was able to
succeed for a while. But the point is even if you want to live a
frugal, spare lifestyle there are structural issues in the US economy
that drive up the baseline living expenses, and that is what drives up
the cost of US programmers more than anything.
Second, India has a positive derivative, in terms of progress. That
has enormous psychological advangates. You can look down through
history, people will accept the most horrible conditions cheerfully as
long as they feel the derivative is positive. Like in the Blitz in
London. Once the first bombs came, and they realized they would make
it through, they were willing to accept the most horrible losses
without being demoralized, they knew they would make it through. In
the US now the derivative is negative. Psychologically it is very
hard to cheerfully throw all our body and soul into something knowing
that things are just going to slowly (or not so slowly) get worse. It
is not a question of the absolute level of wealth, it is knowing that
conditions have been and will continue to deteriorate over time.
Old Pif
>
> Now, from where I stand, I see India as having two key structural
> advantages: [potentially] extremely low cost of living and a positive
> derivative, in terms of progress.
>
1. Extremely low cost of living is a statistical artifact that has
been created by VERY large population that goes to denominator and all
other number that go to the nominator. From the press it looks that
high-tech workers live in special areas where the cost of living is
may be still cheaper than in US but not extremely and is catching up.
The cost of the outsourcing is already not negligible and potentially
is getting to the international market level. At some point it does
not worse the troubles. In some area we are already there. The fact
that the Indian workers earn less does not mean that the customer pays
less. All the work is done under umbrella of some big outsourcing
companies that maximize the profit as everybody else. This initial
period where they undercut prices is practically over. They already
killed the US IT and now they start charging the full price. Parallel
to that the cost of living for that segment (relatively very small) of
Indian population the cost of living will grow as the providers of
services and goods will also try to maximize their profits. That has
been the case with Japan that turned from the cheapest country into
the most expensive. The difference with India would that a small part
of the population will reach the average world level and the rest
would still live on the streets and eat rats. And all that is because
of
2. the positive derivative of the population growth in India. It is
the only positive derivative over there I am aware of. With the
current rate the country simply eats itself. They have according to
the international sources shortages of everything from clean water to
the simplest food. They have reached and crossed all natural limits
their habitat can sustain. And it is getting worse every year. That is
why they have so huge emigration. I would do exactly the same being in
their shoes.
Me, ...again!
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009, Old Pif wrote:
> On Dec 31, 4:25 pm, dead_professor <dead_profes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Now, from where I stand, I see India as having two key structural
>> advantages: [potentially] extremely low cost of living and a positive
>> derivative, in terms of progress.
>>
>
> 1. Extremely low cost of living is a statistical artifact that has
> been created by VERY large population that goes to denominator and all
> other number that go to the nominator.
"Low cost of living" is a joke when "low wage earners" can barely live.
I don't know why so many people just don't understand that the exchange
rate is what makes the difference. It is "low cost" for us, but not for
THEM.
From the press it looks that
> high-tech workers live in special areas where the cost of living is
> may be still cheaper than in US but not extremely and is catching up.
From what I read, if you live in "civilized" parts of India (i.e. the
nice parts of cities), it is the "high rent district" and you need a
better paying job to get that, just like anywhere else. One travel book
for westerners going to India (also mentioned in WSJ), says top hotels in
top cities in India will go for $200-400/night, just like NYC and Moscow,
London, Tokyo, etc.
> The cost of the outsourcing is already not negligible and potentially
> is getting to the international market level. At some point it does
> not worse the troubles. In some area we are already there. The fact
> that the Indian workers earn less does not mean that the customer pays
> less. All the work is done under umbrella of some big outsourcing
> companies that maximize the profit as everybody else. This initial
> period where they undercut prices is practically over. They already
> killed the US IT and now they start charging the full price. Parallel
> to that the cost of living for that segment (relatively very small) of
> Indian population the cost of living will grow as the providers of
> services and goods will also try to maximize their profits. That has
> been the case with Japan that turned from the cheapest country into
> the most expensive. The difference with India would that a small part
> of the population will reach the average world level and the rest
> would still live on the streets and eat rats. And all that is because
> of
I think this is mostly correct.
> 2. the positive derivative of the population growth in India. It is
> the only positive derivative over there I am aware of. With the
> current rate the country simply eats itself. They have according to
> the international sources shortages of everything from clean water to
> the simplest food. They have reached and crossed all natural limits
> their habitat can sustain. And it is getting worse every year. That is
> why they have so huge emigration. I would do exactly the same being in
> their shoes.
Well, they are growing their manufacturing sector but at a growth rate
about 1/3 of China's as per WSJ graphics I saw recently. Tata is ramping
up Nano factories, Suzlon is expanding windmills despite propeller blade
cracks (maybe they fixed this embarassing problem), India has the largest
steel production in the world (according to WSJ articles). But, also a lot
of other problems, too.
>
>
>
Old Pif
>
> Well, they are growing their manufacturing sector but at a growth rate
> about 1/3 of China's as per WSJ graphics I saw recently. Tata is ramping
> up Nano factories, Suzlon is expanding windmills despite propeller blade
> cracks (maybe they fixed this embarassing problem), India has the largest
> steel production in the world (according to WSJ articles). But, also a lot
> of other problems, too.
>
Take the best scenario that the whole billion plus of people in India
has well paid job in Indian standard which means it is sufficient to
have a nice apartment with clean water, well working sewage system,
energy supply and all that, enough for reasonable quality food etc. In
that case most of that must be imported. The environment in India has
been totally depleted. It is impossible to produce all that inside the
country. Therefore, to achieve that the country must generate enough
of the export products to import all that. Let suppose they grab all
call centers in the world and all IT. It is still not enough to feed a
billion people. The sheer numbers do not match.The whole resources of
this planet are not enough to feed all that number of people on the
Western level of consumption.
Whatever scenario you try the outcome is always the same: small
portion of relatively prosperous people versus the vast majority of
the rest leaving below starvation limits.
kamal
> First of all, I will be the first to admit this place (the US) is
> teeming with lazy idiots. But hey, they're *our* idiots! It is one
> thing for us to call them slovenly idiots, quite another for someone
> from outside to do it. I will reflexively defend them when an
I didn't call them slovenly idiots. i just said it costs 4x or 5x
Indian wages to get equivalently qualified people in the US. I meant
that there are different people with different skill sets in each
country, but when you compare equivalently qualified people -the wages
in India are about 20-25% US wages across the board.
> outsider with a towering ego and an offhand dismissive arrogant way
> attacks them. He would have it different? NO loyalty to country? NO
> patriotism? Oh ya, that is a sure recipe for success... I don't know
> what he wants us to do--other than just open our borders completely
> and give up entirely.
>
No -I want you to keep your country to youself and make the best of
what you have (and that includes not preying on other countries for
their natural resources).
> Now, from where I stand, I see India as having two key structural
> advantages: [potentially] extremely low cost of living and a positive
> derivative, in terms of progress.
>
> About the cost of living: that is the key thing here which makes
> American programmers (and scientists and the like) uncompetitive
> internationally. They have as good people, but they can work in a
> high rise and a few blocks away one can find a way to live extremely
> cheaply. There is nowhere in the US you can find that. The last
Partly -yes. The MNC campuses are like 5-star hotels for the rest of
us. But the rents/home prices are in the stratosphere near the special
economic zones. So, we have to commute 20 kms to get to the workplace.
> place was the non-urban midwest, which is why Gateway was able to
> succeed for a while. But the point is even if you want to live a
so move to the mid-west (or rather tell employers you are willing to
work from a low-cost destination within US if that is what it takes to
stay competitive). There is always the option to relocate to India to
better compete for jobs.
> frugal, spare lifestyle there are structural issues in the US economy
> that drive up the baseline living expenses, and that is what drives up
> the cost of US programmers more than anything.
>
Not necessarily. Have you seen how little blue-collar workers make in
the US? If american programmers/scientists opt for minimum wage (or
even twice that), they should be able to compete effectively with
their cheaper counterparts. Does someone in India owe you guys a high-
paying job?
> Second, India has a positive derivative, in terms of progress. That
> has enormous psychological advangates. You can look down through
> history, people will accept the most horrible conditions cheerfully as
> long as they feel the derivative is positive. Like in the Blitz in
That is true for lots of countries. I get the idea you are expecting
people in other countries to provide you with an apology/explanation/
excuse on why their living conditions are so miserable.
regards
-kamal
Me, ...again!
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Old Pif wrote:
> On Dec 31 2009, 9:51 pm, "Me, ...again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, they are growing their manufacturing sector but at a growth rate
>> about 1/3 of China's as per WSJ graphics I saw recently. Tata is ramping
>> up Nano factories, Suzlon is expanding windmills despite propeller blade
>> cracks (maybe they fixed this embarassing problem), India has the largest
>> steel production in the world (according to WSJ articles). But, also a lot
>> of other problems, too.
>>
>
> Take the best scenario that the whole billion plus of people in India
> has well paid job in Indian standard which means it is sufficient to
> have a nice apartment with clean water, well working sewage system,
> energy supply and all that, enough for reasonable quality food etc. In
> that case most of that must be imported.
Then why is govt of India blocking Walmart, and US ag products? It is
happening.
The environment in India has
> been totally depleted.
Why are mining companies from Korea who want to set up mines in eastern
India being turned away?
It is impossible to produce all that inside the
> country.
The economic data I've seen show manufacturing going up in India.
Therefore, to achieve that the country must generate enough
> of the export products to import all that.
That's not my problem.
Let suppose they grab all
> call centers in the world and all IT.
Impossible.
It is still not enough to feed a
> billion people.
How about cutting the birthrate? A simple idea no one thinks about.
> The sheer numbers do not match.The whole resources of
> this planet are not enough to feed all that number of people on the
> Western level of consumption.
Looks like China is headed there. More cars being sold there, now, than
USA. More cell phones in China than any other country. Etc.
> Whatever scenario you try the outcome is always the same: small
> portion of relatively prosperous people versus the vast majority of
> the rest leaving below starvation limits.
You're blind. And, your brain is broken.
Me, ...again!
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, kamal wrote:
> On Jan 1, 2:25 am, dead_professor <dead_profes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> First of all, I will be the first to admit this place (the US) is
>> teeming with lazy idiots. But hey, they're *our* idiots! It is one
>> thing for us to call them slovenly idiots, quite another for someone
>> from outside to do it. I will reflexively defend them when an
>
> I didn't call them slovenly idiots. i just said it costs 4x or 5x
> Indian wages to get equivalently qualified people in the US. I meant
> that there are different people with different skill sets in each
> country, but when you compare equivalently qualified people -the wages
> in India are about 20-25% US wages across the board.
All due to exchange rate inequity.
>> outsider with a towering ego and an offhand dismissive arrogant way
>> attacks them. He would have it different? NO loyalty to country? NO
>> patriotism? Oh ya, that is a sure recipe for success... I don't know
>> what he wants us to do--other than just open our borders completely
>> and give up entirely.
>>
> No -I want you to keep your country to youself and make the best of
> what you have (and that includes not preying on other countries for
> their natural resources).
How about Indian IT preying on US jobs?
>> Now, from where I stand, I see India as having two key structural
>> advantages: [potentially] extremely low cost of living and a positive
>> derivative, in terms of progress.
>>
>> About the cost of living: that is the key thing here which makes
>> American programmers (and scientists and the like) uncompetitive
>> internationally. They have as good people, but they can work in a
>> high rise and a few blocks away one can find a way to live extremely
>> cheaply. There is nowhere in the US you can find that. The last
>
> Partly -yes. The MNC campuses are like 5-star hotels for the rest of
> us. But the rents/home prices are in the stratosphere near the special
> economic zones. So, we have to commute 20 kms to get to the workplace.
That's your problem. But, large fractions of people in the US also commute
20 km to work. For many years in my life I traveled 60 miles each way,
every week. That is a lot more than your 20 km.
>> place was the non-urban midwest, which is why Gateway was able to
>> succeed for a while. But the point is even if you want to live a
>
> so move to the mid-west (or rather tell employers you are willing to
> work from a low-cost destination within US if that is what it takes to
> stay competitive). There is always the option to relocate to India to
> better compete for jobs.
I have heard zero stories about jobs easy to get in India.
>> frugal, spare lifestyle there are structural issues in the US economy
>> that drive up the baseline living expenses, and that is what drives up
>> the cost of US programmers more than anything.
>>
>
> Not necessarily. Have you seen how little blue-collar workers make in
> the US?
It all depends on whether they are union ($15-30/hr) or work at Walmart
($8/hr).
If american programmers/scientists opt for minimum wage (or
> even twice that), they should be able to compete effectively with
> their cheaper counterparts.
Why should Americans watch CEO/executive pay go up 10%-20% per year, and
underling pay go down to subsistence?
Does someone in India owe you guys a high-
> paying job?
Indians should get their jobs in India. What makes you think Americans
should give up their jobs to Indians and be happy about it?
>> Second, India has a positive derivative, in terms of progress. That
>> has enormous psychological advangates. You can look down through
>> history, people will accept the most horrible conditions cheerfully as
>> long as they feel the derivative is positive. Like in the Blitz in
>
> That is true for lots of countries. I get the idea you are expecting
> people in other countries to provide you with an apology/explanation/
> excuse on why their living conditions are so miserable.
I want to see all these 3rd world countries stop looking at the USA as a
cash cow to make up for their own incompetance and lazyness at generating
jobs for their own people.
> regards
> -kamal
>
phil scott
wrote:
> First of all, I will be the first to admit this place (the US) is
> teeming with lazy idiots. But hey, they're *our* idiots! It is one
> thing for us to call them slovenly idiots, quite another for someone
> from outside to do it. I will reflexively defend them when an
> outsider with a towering ego and an offhand dismissive arrogant way
> attacks them. He would have it different? NO loyalty to country? NO
> patriotism? Oh ya, that is a sure recipe for success... I don't know
> what he wants us to do--other than just open our borders completely
> and give up entirely.
I am an american, engineer, due to my personal predilections I ended
up getting called to
do a lot of forensic engineering on large projects... those collapsed
because of morons in charge
and a few who were not morons unable to take a stand and stop the
insanity so the projects collapsed
one, IBMs advanced RISC chip plant in 1991 approx. I was called and
tipped silently by the engineering firms
head man on the project,,, he fipped though the fines for me, his
notes all of it and silently put post it notes where they
belonged... he stayed slient
ot was obvious he knew what he was doing and that the firms advice to
IBM was not heeded, no one spoke up so the
250 million dollar project ended up non functional... IBM stock lost
hundreds of billions in value and IBM lost its lead in
world wide chip development *permamently,
In order to get that mess mess back on track the issues had to be
labled and the players involved discovered... as they
tried to cut me a new one... but not a chance in hell... I came well
armed. and was provided much of the ammuntion I needed
to put the onus where it belonged and to rectify the issues. It
involved me be about as unaptriotic as you can get in the
eyes of many, a spade remained a spade though..... failure had to
be reversed, this was not a social issue, it was a life and
death issue in many respects
accordingly when someone from any nation wants to call any american an
idiot, who is in fact an idiot... he or she will have
my unending support... thats the side of the coin I see... I see
blind 'patriotism' as destructive... a failure to correct...is no
favor at all
it is, and was in this case, the cause of vast ruin to the company,
thousands of its employes and the national interests,, in spades
>
> Now, from where I stand, I see India as having two key structural
> advantages: [potentially] extremely low cost of living and a positive
> derivative, in terms of progress.
>
> About the cost of living: that is the key thing here which makes
> American programmers (and scientists and the like) uncompetitive
> internationally. They have as good people, but they can work in a
> high rise and a few blocks away one can find a way to live extremely
> cheaply. There is nowhere in the US you can find that. The last
> place was the non-urban midwest, which is why Gateway was able to
> succeed for a while. But the point is even if you want to live a
> frugal, spare lifestyle there are structural issues in the US economy
> that drive up the baseline living expenses, and that is what drives up
> the cost of US programmers more than anything.
correct and dont forget our govt bloat, requiring heavy taxation, and
hidden taxation
that runs up all other costs
>
> Second, India has a positive derivative, in terms of progress. That
> has enormous psychological advangates. You can look down through
> history, people will accept the most horrible conditions cheerfully as
> long as they feel the derivative is positive. Like in the Blitz in
> London. Once the first bombs came, and they realized they would make
> it through, they were willing to accept the most horrible losses
> without being demoralized, they knew they would make it through. In
> the US now the derivative is negative. Psychologically it is very
> hard to cheerfully throw all our body and soul into something knowing
> that things are just going to slowly (or not so slowly) get worse. It
> is not a question of the absolute level of wealth, it is knowing that
> conditions have been and will continue to deteriorate over time.
I agree,,, but there are solutions... and individual can arrange to
structure what he does so he
can do well,.. for some... it takes some intelligence or a lot of hard
work and some luck..
The other day I was running low on cash and the carburettor on my
motorhome went south ...bad
accelerator pump... took me two days to mentally work though what it
had to be... so I got a rebuild kid from a nice
guy at the parts house who was laughing at this 70 year olds chances
of fixing that spring loaded mess with the parts held
in place by the gaskets,,,, that was nasty... two days and three tries
later I got it fixed.... now I am a lot more capable
a good thannng, my package of skills marketable to 50 to 150 an hour
just took another step up,,, and so did my staying power
Phil scott
phil scott
thats semi close but not the motivation imo,,,,, there are many
drivers, mostly
rationalizations ... attempts to justify the american position,,, a
batch of negatives
it generated for itself by allowing corporatons to offshore too much
of our
productive infrastructure etc.
such rationalizations,, actually any rationalizions corrupt the minds
of their hosts/ ruining
the ability to think rationally.. best not to rationalize
anything,,, if one then becomes
abusive or spins facts to satisfy their own rationalied notions...
that locks in the bogus notions
and locks the person in hostile mode... thats fatal
Phil scott
>
> regards
> -kamal
dead_professor
Pretty much a pure, bald-face lie there. It's a question of what the
meaning of is is I guess. Below you claim Americans feel that we are
owed a job. If that's not laziness (slovenly) I don't know what is.
[...]
> > place was the non-urban midwest, which is why Gateway was able to
> > succeed for a while. But the point is even if you want to live a
>
> so move to the mid-west (or rather tell employers you are willing to
> work from a low-cost destination within US if that is what it takes to
> stay competitive). There is always the option to relocate to India to
> better compete for jobs.
>
You can't read even a simple declarative sentence. I said that
PREVIOUSLY it was still possible to have people in the rural midwest
be (almost) competitive with those living abroad with very low costs
of living. That is gone now. And I DO live in the rural midwest
already. That's my point. That even the cheapest place in the US has
a cost of living several times that of what you can get by in India.
[...]
>
> Not necessarily. Have you seen how little blue-collar workers make in
> the US? If american programmers/scientists opt for minimum wage (or
> even twice that), they should be able to compete effectively with
> their cheaper counterparts. Does someone in India owe you guys a high-
> paying job?
Only in your feverish tortured mind. It doesn't matter what the topic
is, you will always bring up the "owed a job" crowing. But you've got
it wrong both ways. The point is that Americans are reasonable beings
who respond in rational ways to economic pressures. What has happened
is that the difference between what you can make as a staring
programmer and what you might make, say, as a host at a decent
restaurant, have come closer and closer. And since there is example
after example of people investing decades into tech. fields and
winding up completely unemployable, more and more Americans are making
the rational decision of working at Olive Garden, or the bank, or
gaming the real estate market or whatever.
>
> That is true for lots of countries. I get the idea you are expecting
> people in other countries to provide you with an apology/explanation/
> excuse on why their living conditions are so miserable.
>
> regards
> -kamal
Holy crap it sure makes you feel good to take that condescending
arrogant tack doesn't it? I said NOTHING about being owed a job.
NOTHING. NOT AT ALL. That is all in your head. But you enjoy it so,
have fun with that.
Me, ...again!
See way at end....
I have no idea why anyone going to school and working for grades and
working for credentials and being productive would NOT _want_ a job, and
such a person--after having put in all that time, effort, and getting
experience--would be doing something wrong by asking the question: why
can't I have a job if I am able, willing, and available (besides the
practical problem that the number of jobs is less than the number of
people pursuing those jobs). Of course, if we dump even more fishermen
around the fishing pond and there are no more fish, it is clear that more
fishermen are going to go to go home without dinner. I have no idea why so
many people do not understand this problem and that solutions are so evasive,
outside of the cliche "Well, tough luck, bunkie." And, why people who say
such things can't understand that the person who hears such things migh be
mad at the person who say such things.
Kings and emperors long ago sent soldiers into towns and villages and just
killed people and set fire to dwellings often regardless of whether the
people did anything wrong. Funny, maybe things haven't changed much except
that instead of kings/emperors, we now have CEOs/etc., and people don't
get killed, just their means of sustenance gets yanked out from under
them.
kamal
> On Jan 1, 8:55 am, kamal <kama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I didn't call them slovenly idiots.
>
> Pretty much a pure, bald-face lie there. It's a question of what the
> meaning of is is I guess. Below you claim Americans feel that we are
> owed a job. If that's not laziness (slovenly) I don't know what is.
>
working the same 40-60 hrs/week as an H1B but at 20-40% more than an
h1B in cash component and being offered generous stock options instead
of a green card applicatio (asn an h1b will be).
> [...]
>
> > > place was the non-urban midwest, which is why Gateway was able to
> > > succeed for a while. But the point is even if you want to live a
>
> > so move to the mid-west (or rather tell employers you are willing to
> > work from a low-cost destination within US if that is what it takes to
> > stay competitive). There is always the option to relocate to India to
> > better compete for jobs.
>
> You can't read even a simple declarative sentence. I said that
> PREVIOUSLY it was still possible to have people in the rural midwest
> be (almost) competitive with those living abroad with very low costs
> of living. That is gone now. And I DO live in the rural midwest
Understand -if your cost of living is way too high (or has shot up in
the past 20-30 yrs) -that is your problem, not that of the world
around you.
> already. That's my point. That even the cheapest place in the US has
> a cost of living several times that of what you can get by in India.
>
so who is preventing you from moving to India? Indian govt gives work
permits without quota to any worker who can find an employer. Don't
think they are being generous. They are just interested in increasing
tax collection which will happen if the high paying job moves to
India.
> [...]
>
>
>
> > Not necessarily. Have you seen how little blue-collar workers make in
> > the US? If american programmers/scientists opt for minimum wage (or
> > even twice that), they should be able to compete effectively with
> > their cheaper counterparts. Does someone in India owe you guys a high-
> > paying job?
>
> Only in your feverish tortured mind. It doesn't matter what the topic
> is, you will always bring up the "owed a job" crowing. But you've got
ok -if you agree that employers don't owe you guys a job if they can
find cheaper workers elsewhere, then we are on the same page.
> it wrong both ways. The point is that Americans are reasonable beings
> who respond in rational ways to economic pressures. What has happened
> is that the difference between what you can make as a staring
> programmer and what you might make, say, as a host at a decent
> restaurant, have come closer and closer. And since there is example
> after example of people investing decades into tech. fields and
> winding up completely unemployable, more and more Americans are making
> the rational decision of working at Olive Garden, or the bank, or
> gaming the real estate market or whatever.
>
yep -that is where you are headed thanks to your govt's monetary
policy and insurmountable debt. If you prefer programming to working
in a restaurant, then opting for a monetary policy that makes it as
inexpensive to get programming work done in the US as in India is the
way to go. There are several ways to achieve it -but you can achieve
it only when you have concluded that outsourcing cannot be legislated
away and that employer has full rights to transfer work to a cheaper
location.
>
>
> > That is true for lots of countries. I get the idea you are expecting
> > people in other countries to provide you with an apology/explanation/
> > excuse on why their living conditions are so miserable.
>
> > regards
> > -kamal
>
> Holy crap it sure makes you feel good to take that condescending
> arrogant tack doesn't it? I said NOTHING about being owed a job.
> NOTHING. NOT AT ALL. That is all in your head. But you enjoy it so,
> have fun with that.
good for you if you have gotten over the notion of being entitled to a
job/first-world-std of living.
regards
-kamal
Me, ...again!
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, kamal wrote:
> On Jan 5, 9:07 am, dead_professor <dead_profes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 1, 8:55 am, kamal <kama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I didn't call them slovenly idiots.
>>
>> Pretty much a pure, bald-face lie there. It's a question of what the
>> meaning of is is I guess. Below you claim Americans feel that we are
>> owed a job. If that's not laziness (slovenly) I don't know what is.
>>
> being owed a job =entitled to a higher std of living.
You still have not answered my question: why are CEOs owed a high
compensation package way over any reasonable level of pay?
And, why should investors get special priviledges such as to get any
amount of money they want by exploiting other people. Why do they think
society owes them free money?
It could mean
> working the same 40-60 hrs/week as an H1B but at 20-40% more than an
> h1B in cash component and being offered generous stock options instead
> of a green card applicatio (asn an h1b will be).
Why do you think US society owes Indians any job they want?
>> [...]
>>
>>>> place was the non-urban midwest, which is why Gateway was able to
>>>> succeed for a while. But the point is even if you want to live a
>>
>>> so move to the mid-west (or rather tell employers you are willing to
>>> work from a low-cost destination within US if that is what it takes to
>>> stay competitive). There is always the option to relocate to India to
>>> better compete for jobs.
>>
>> You can't read even a simple declarative sentence. I said that
>> PREVIOUSLY it was still possible to have people in the rural midwest
>> be (almost) competitive with those living abroad with very low costs
>> of living. That is gone now. And I DO live in the rural midwest
>
> Understand -if your cost of living is way too high (or has shot up in
> the past 20-30 yrs) -that is your problem, not that of the world
> around you.
Why do you think the US should solve the problems of the world around us?
>> already. That's my point. That even the cheapest place in the US has
>> a cost of living several times that of what you can get by in India.
>>
>
> so who is preventing you from moving to India?
Who wants to move to India?
Indian govt gives work
> permits without quota to any worker who can find an employer.
When it is _easy_ to find decent work in India, then people will come.
All stories I hear are that India can't make enough jobs for its own
people.
Don't
> think they are being generous. They are just interested in increasing
> tax collection which will happen if the high paying job moves to
> India.
How India cheats...
==================
Quotes of a letter to the editor, Wall Street Journal, July 17, 2007, page
A15:
title: "Brazil, India Walked Away From Superb Opportunity"
from part of second paragraph:
"In agriculture, the disparities in the current level of protection are
even more striking, but India has not been willing to reduce that
protection even modestly. The US average agricultural tariff is 12%, while
the global average is 62% and India's is a remarkable 114%."
Other parts of the letter dealt with Brazil, another holdout on the Doha
round of WTO talks.
Letter signed by
Peter F. Allgeier, US Ambassador to the WTO, Geneva
===============
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>
>>> Not necessarily. Have you seen how little blue-collar workers make in
>>> the US? If american programmers/scientists opt for minimum wage (or
>>> even twice that), they should be able to compete effectively with
>>> their cheaper counterparts. Does someone in India owe you guys a high-
>>> paying job?
>>
>> Only in your feverish tortured mind. It doesn't matter what the topic
>> is, you will always bring up the "owed a job" crowing. But you've got
>
> ok -if you agree that employers don't owe you guys a job if they can
> find cheaper workers elsewhere, then we are on the same page.
Why does society owe employers a free ride? Or, at least a cheap ride?
Especially since employers don't give a free/cheap ride to
buyers/customers?
>> it wrong both ways. The point is that Americans are reasonable beings
>> who respond in rational ways to economic pressures. What has happened
>> is that the difference between what you can make as a staring
>> programmer and what you might make, say, as a host at a decent
>> restaurant, have come closer and closer. And since there is example
>> after example of people investing decades into tech. fields and
>> winding up completely unemployable, more and more Americans are making
>> the rational decision of working at Olive Garden, or the bank, or
>> gaming the real estate market or whatever.
>>
> yep -that is where you are headed thanks to your govt's monetary
> policy and insurmountable debt.
And, when are you going to realize that all countries have
"insurmountable" debt?
If you prefer programming to working
> in a restaurant, then opting for a monetary policy that makes it as
> inexpensive to get programming work done in the US as in India is the
> way to go.
Yeah, block all H1b visas and close the borders.
There are several ways to achieve it -but you can achieve
> it only when you have concluded that outsourcing cannot be legislated
> away
It would only take a law, enforced with police, that closed the border.
and that employer has full rights to transfer work to a cheaper
> location.
Why do you think employees owe employers these full rights?
>>
>>
>>> That is true for lots of countries. I get the idea you are expecting
>>> people in other countries to provide you with an apology/explanation/
>>> excuse on why their living conditions are so miserable.
>>
>>> regards
>>> -kamal
>>
>> Holy crap it sure makes you feel good to take that condescending
>> arrogant tack doesn't it? I said NOTHING about being owed a job.
>> NOTHING. NOT AT ALL. That is all in your head. But you enjoy it so,
>> have fun with that.
>
> good for you if you have gotten over the notion of being entitled to a
> job/first-world-std of living.
And, why shouldn't we have first world standard of living? After all, we
made it/
> regards
> -kamal
>
phil scott
> On Jan 1, 8:55 am, kamal <kama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I didn't call them slovenly idiots.
>
> Pretty much a pure, bald-face lie there. It's a question of what the
> meaning of is is I guess. Below you claim Americans feel that we are
> owed a job. If that's not laziness (slovenly) I don't know what is.
well... being in the engineering and construction business for 45
years now, at all
levels, from owner of a small shop, owner of a large shop, consulting
nationally, and in
the weapons plants.. I notice in the engineering busness no shortage
of complete fat
heated idiots... abut 5% brilliant,,, 50% semi passable..and maybe 30%
will ruin your project
So Im with Kamal on much of his view... in his end of the business,
engineering etc.
I see it daily... white elephants is a fitting term imo (and Im
white)
**
In the trades though the numbers are a lot better... maybe 25 or 30%
are competent, etc.. and 70% or more will get you by..
thats because the trades are self correcting..if you cut the lumber
too short, you are instantly screwed, you either learn or you go
out of business... not true in management or engineering due to the
delay between a moronic decision and collapse.
Phil scott