Getting a bargain by overvaluing ones currency...
phil scott
devalues, prices are adjusted. but yes it works until that
discovery...
in a world with fiat currencies all afloat in the same boat... it is
my view that most of the benefits are apparent, not real...as the
chinese are warning about... it doesnt need much more of our fast
becoming worthless paper... but it can us some as long as it can buy
goods from other nations with regardless dollar price of those goods
rising.
Phil scott
kamal
> is a short term trick... as soon as the trading partner realizes its
> devalues, prices are adjusted. but yes it works until that
> discovery...
>
boosts up a stock in the short term, but cannot do so in the long
term. If ponzi schemes could last forever -then they wouldn't be
called so, and companies wouldn't have to sweat it out to show real
earnings to justify their stock prices.
> in a world with fiat currencies all afloat in the same boat... it is
true that all are afloat in the same boat, but the ones that are most
manipulated are the ones with the highest valuation in relation to
other currencies without a corresponding purchasing power to back it
up.
> my view that most of the benefits are apparent, not real...as the
> chinese are warning about... it doesnt need much more of our fast
last I checked, they are trying to swap their mountain of funny money
for real gold. They have also signed a deal with brazil to trade in
goods/services without involving the USD as an intermediate step.
> becoming worthless paper... but it can us some as long as it can buy
> goods from other nations with regardless dollar price of those goods
> rising.
>
One way or the other, the house of cards will have to come down
crashing and when that happens, they will not be able to hand out
their funny money for anything real.
Since you figured out so much, maybe you can enlighten the idiot I am
talking to -that a fountain of wealth just does not exist. The debt
clock here is for real:-
First thing I would expect Bernanke to do if he gets hold of a cash-
cow/fountain of wealth -would be to reduce that debt to 0, so that
interest per citizen does not grow beyond $6000+.
regards
-kamal
> Phil scott
Me, ...again!
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009, kamal wrote:
> On Dec 25, 12:22 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>> is a short term trick... as soon as the trading partner realizes its
>> devalues, prices are adjusted. but yes it works until that
>> discovery...
>>
> yep -its a ponzi scheme just like insider-trading/manipulation which
> boosts up a stock in the short term,
Manipulation is not a Ponzi scheme.
but cannot do so in the long
> term. If ponzi schemes could last forever -then they wouldn't be
> called so, and companies wouldn't have to sweat it out to show real
> earnings to justify their stock prices.
Sooner or later Ponzi schemes are discovered.
>> in a world with fiat currencies all afloat in the same boat... it is
>
> true that all are afloat in the same boat,
No, some are on higher water, some are on lower water. Water flows with
gravity. Its a law of physics.
but the ones that are most
> manipulated are the ones with the highest valuation in relation to
> other currencies without a corresponding purchasing power to back it
> up.
A misrepresentation since cheap currencies are all manipulated lower to
exploit gravity drawing higher level currencies to lower levels.
>> my view that most of the benefits are apparent, not real...as the
>> chinese are warning about... it doesnt need much more of our fast
>
> last I checked, they are trying to swap their mountain of funny money
> for real gold.
Last time I checked, yesterday, gold was on its way down from a peak.
They have also signed a deal with brazil to trade in
> goods/services without involving the USD as an intermediate step.
Good. But, the USD is on its way up again.
>> becoming worthless paper... but it can us some as long as it can buy
>> goods from other nations with regardless dollar price of those goods
>> rising.
>>
> One way or the other, the house of cards will have to come down
> crashing and when that happens, they will not be able to hand out
> their funny money for anything real.
You still have not named any countries that do not use funny money.
> Since you figured out so much, maybe you can enlighten the idiot I am
> talking to -that a fountain of wealth just does not exist.
You are certainly blind.
The debt
> clock here is for real:-
>
> http://www.usdebtclock.org/
It all runs by arithmetic extrapolation and it does not count asset
expansion. Its a big cheat and you are a big liar that does not understand
money.
> First thing I would expect Bernanke to do if he gets hold of a cash-
> cow/fountain of wealth -would be to reduce that debt to 0, so that
> interest per citizen does not grow beyond $6000+.
You are out of your mind.
> regards
> -kamal
>
>> Phil scott
>
>
phil scott
there is absolutely no way in hell that the USA will pay off is
current debt, compounded by its 50 trillion++ in entitlements,
and its completely bloated govt, with thoce civil service retirements
at approx 5x those levels per employee,,,, and those eligible
for full retirment at age 51 if they began at age 21... sooner if they
began at age 18 in the military... most police and firer retireing
these days at 137,000 a year, then add 50,000 to that per for
medical / dental and eye care... that mess is wont be getting cured
any time soon... this mess will indeed hit the wall imo
Regarding others with fixed views...each of us have some anchor point
or other that locks us into a certain mental sand box...I do.. Yours
seems to be that you are a exceedingly astute observer...you know
that... you prove it to yourself daily, others see that you are an
astute and accurate observer... so that 'rightness', as with any of
us, is employed to defacto lock in or color our other views, yours
that 'labor will find its own bottom level, depending on who will work
cheapest;. (thats accurate)...as you have not yet seen that this
human tendency becomes a race to the bottom without entrepreneurial
and constitutional protections (anti monopoly measures)... that race
to the bottom is fatal for all but 1% who end with limitless power
(and limitless corruption, power corrupts).
Art holds his views in a similar fashion.. it seems to me that he sees
clearly how this race to the bottom is destructive and how it has
ruined many nations in the past, including india.... and is up to
pointing out the ruin... and sticking it to you on that score, as he
ignores India's rising tendencies because he detests that mental set..
and sees it now developing in US corporations... and he knows the ruin
that comes from that.... advocating more govt control of the type
Ive mentioned to reverse the problem.
The upset present blinds the various parties to a broader spectrum
view... the truth, actuality, is never at one pole or the other or a
single facet of an issue, but in defense of a thing we tend only to
see single facets, glarring ... so we present those. that is the
slippery path south.
India without consideration for the actual Life of its working people,
and its underclasses will have swallowed one of the completely
poisonous pills on that path, and will self destruct....Art may be
attempting to point that out to you, while at the same denying your
accurate observattions of the current scene..
The faceted aspects of both always come true in the end.... proving
nothing ...only that each aspect has its day... and with still no view
of tthe larger aspects of life and what makes true prosperity.... a
wage sufficient to support a consumer economy,
Phil scott
>
> regards
> -kamal
>
>
>
> > Phil scott- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Old Pif
>
> there is absolutely no way in hell that the USA will pay off is
> current debt ...
>
What is the name of that department where the States file for
bankruptcy?
phil scott
I dont know, but the cities (such as Vacaville Calif) file in federal
court.
The states probably never file bankrupcy. ... no need for creditor
protection, since here nothing that
can be viably levied on... they just dont pay,... such as California
last spring issued IOU's to contractors in lieu
of paying its bills (90 day wait for redemption). More cities are
in the process of discussing ways of defaulting on civil servant
pension and medical benefits.
Recent world leaking from washington is that many of the states, calif
for instance are too big to fail.. so will no doubt be
bailed out as calif was in 08 by the federal govt... and thats fine by
me... except at the national viability tanks, due an over burden
of burocracy in combination with half its own civil servants retiring,
and half of its productive citizenry retiring and ceasing to pay
income taxes for the most part.... there is no way to sustain any of
this in the light of a failing manufacturing base....
The mitigating circumstances are slight
Other nations are in a similar situation with debt... some with bad
infrastructure are worse off than we are...so our dollars will still
be desired in many of those countries... The USA has a fully
developed infrastructure and the weaponry to enforce its will abroad
to a significant degree.
Historically those are insufficent however to prevent the regularly
scheduled implosions of nations at the end of their
viable life cycles. (its a 5 generation, 250 year cycle.. with the
4th generation demonstrating affluence and peak
living standards...we are hard into the 5th national generation)
Can this condition bail out the states? No. Their default will be
in terms of foreign creditors owning more of its buildings, highways,
water works, forests and farms.. taken in exchange for USD's in the
open markets...
I was at an auction of a major US semi conductor plant a few years
ago... most of the bidders were bidding on line from China, paying
premium prices or what ever it would take to get the equipment...no
doubt the real estate can and is being sold that way also.
**
Personal solutions involve:
Living in as much of a non taxable situation as possible for many of
us... myself for example. Having high level free lance-able skills
so that a little work affords a good living, in the minimal tax
brackets... and no ppty tax.
Those 'making it' inside corporations, dont look healthy to me in
most cases... the stress is killing them... their 100k salaries drop
to 40k after direct and hidden taxes...as their ass gets fatter (45%
in the US now considered fatties and headed to morbidly fat)... as
their investments in this financially corrupted culture drop to near
zero in real terms... or negative as their real estate goes upside
down...
So... I think personal viability involves under working, keeping most
of what you earn, and not spending or investing into this mess. but
in own health, intellectual viability. In that situation you can
be valuable free lancing with those still owning factories or shops,
and in desperate need of high end talent whether they realize it or
not.... you get work in those cases not by selling this moron class on
your brilliance but by flat rating a production cycle... they will
take the low bid...if you are good at what you do, and pick your
projects carefully, and write and then enforce an air tight contract,
you can do very well that way...
Then... the bankrupt state will send ruthless high school grad idiots
after you. at which point you want to make sure yer boat is worth
less on the auction market than it costs to seize... same with your
car... etc. and that your client base is diverrse....and that they
have no case. (which until lately has not stopped them, its seize
first. ruin the company... then drop the case 10 years later..)
Lately the instruction seems to be 'dont waste your time suing some
guy living out of a shopping cart, go after people with money'... that
was bright. Except that those with money are leaving the state in a
mass exodus... no way to pay the 100 to 150k civil service
retirements in that case though ...dang.
Maybe hiring more thugs would work. Do you think?
Thats how states an nations go bankrupt...its not new history.
Bastile days ensue, even recently.. the process does not seem to be
abating over the millenia.
Some very bright people have noticed this.. the overlord bankers gone
international riding the crests of multiple waves...home free..
because the entire earth cannot go bankrupt and title its assets
insures control no matter what. Will that fly? I am at a loss
here.
We are on new ground, there have been a number of movies on the topic
some from 30 years ago... blade runner. etc. My take on the
situation is that such strife breeds ultra strong and rescourceful
people, and that those living in plush corruption cannot stand them
off for any significant span of time... a lot of movies on that theme
as well... all interesting
**
we live as individuals however in micro segments, and make blind
decisions on that basis but also of necessity... its all we can know
as individuals... so these things unfold naturally. leaving the
benefits of strong arms and tight wits to.......
...... the blade runners. an ultimate gift worth its price.... in
spaces
Phil scott
Old Pif
>
> The USA has a fully
> developed infrastructure and the weaponry to enforce its will abroad
> to a significant degree.
>
This is our best chance. When the Chinese come with a sack of unpaid
bills we show them the Big (nuclear) Dick.
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/pfau/detail/BigDick3A46475RG342-FHNACP.html
phil scott
yes we will...and I like your analogy... good for a giant laugh
then these and an army of others, with bathtubs. in motel rooms able
to create thousands and thousands of gallons of any toxin or pathogen
know to man will step forward... alone. in the dark, undetectable and
show the big nuclear dick that corruption ruins itself ... utterly in
the end.
The big nuclear dick is at least funny as hell. :)
One of my high school classmates turned out after his disaperance into
Standord to be leading much of that... one hell of a guy to meet,
humble and self efacing with his stories ..close to 7 feet tall...in a
$1,000 suit.. he knew his accomplishments... with a grin just about
the exact shape of Jacks (who owns the fast food chain)... that was
odd. and I do respect this guy for it appears an unlimited batch of
brains and the persona to get it all past the stuffed shirts and jerks
in that business... much of it diabolical to its roots. diabolical
enough to scare you.
So Id say he made it.... we talked briefly about the one man nature of
future WMD...he couldnt say anything... but he knew.... then I
mentioned a bit about aspects the US army and intelligence agencies
have been looking into and trying unsuccessfully to pervert..
he bristled. We had reached the limits of his mental set. I left
him with a recommendation that he read a book documenting NASA deep
space probe experments in instantaneious communication... and perhaps
noticing nothing acts in isolaton.
secret life of plants, by tomkins 1972 or so limitless advances on
that since not a lot of it
published... The corrupt self destruct. evey single time. A huge
nuclear dick just speeds the process.
Phil scott
Me, ...again!
I'm not going to disagree about the future where obligations are going to
get far enough ahead of revenues that a lot of people are going to end up
with unfunded benefits. This is already happening in a few areas: the
obligations are being met with bankruptcies and it is the pension and
other plans that are going bankrupt. Now, if the stock market shoots up
again, a lot of these problems will go away.
Debt by governments? If you look at economic history, you will find that
the debts do not always go up. On the whole, they do. If that debt can be
serviced, then its not a problem. If is can't be serviced, then there are
big problems. If too much of any economy becomes unserviceable, then you
have an economic crisis and we've had many in the last couple decades.
Aian crisis '97-'98, US-Y2K dot-bomb crisis, '92 Russian debt crisis, '82
Mexican Peso crisis, and others.
It is also a fact, however, that there is some cooperation among the
central banks and there are processes by which these crises are handled to
minimize the damage. I did not say "eliminate" the damage, just minimuze
it.
Is the money-banking system ever going to be _perfect_? I doubt it, but
nobody has been able to come up with a _perfect_ system and I've read
enough about these systems that what you always come up with is something
where there are both advantages and disadvantages and all you can do is
decide which advantages you like and which you don't like, and then
someone else thinks differentlyh.
Things like the bailouts and FDIC have kept businesses going and more and
more governments are doing these things to keep their economies from
falling even worse appart.
> Regarding others with fixed views...each of us have some anchor point
> or other that locks us into a certain mental sand box...I do.. Yours
> seems to be that you are a exceedingly astute observer...you know
> that... you prove it to yourself daily, others see that you are an
> astute and accurate observer... so that 'rightness', as with any of
> us, is employed to defacto lock in or color our other views, yours
> that 'labor will find its own bottom level, depending on who will work
> cheapest;. (thats accurate)...as you have not yet seen that this
> human tendency becomes a race to the bottom without entrepreneurial
> and constitutional protections (anti monopoly measures)... that race
> to the bottom is fatal for all but 1% who end with limitless power
> (and limitless corruption, power corrupts).
Well, my view is a little different than that.
> Art holds his views in a similar fashion.. it seems to me that he sees
> clearly how this race to the bottom is destructive and how it has
> ruined many nations in the past, including india.... and is up to
> pointing out the ruin... and sticking it to you on that score, as he
> ignores India's rising tendencies because he detests that mental set..
> and sees it now developing in US corporations... and he knows the ruin
> that comes from that.... advocating more govt control of the type
> Ive mentioned to reverse the problem.
My bone to pick is that while Kamal says that ownerships are what controls
employment, my position is that employees and citizens have rights and
these rights should not be discarded. I, as a citizen, should not have
less rights than a foreigner. And, corporation executives cannot be
allowed to function like kings and emperors, to exploit anyone they can
exploit and hire any guy at cheaper wages simply because it can be done.
We've got such a race to efficiency that jobs are constantly being
eliminated anyway so you are losing jobs that get spending money into the
pockets of consumers.
Kamal is wrong to think foreigners are "entitled" to anything they want
when they are not born in the system or country in question. And, the
major trouble in this country is the lack of sense of entitlement among
its citizens. People just "give up" the fight and the other major problem
is our politicians who are in the pockets of the rich/executive class.
The ideas of Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment Compensation are all
good ideas but now headed for trouble in a 1-2 decades and will need to be
corrected. Now, Obamacare is going to spread medical care around, but also
cut it back (as it has been doing for some time). A lot of people don't
like the cutbacks, but doctors and the medical industry have had a cash
cow for decades. All over the rest of the first world they get the same
care for half the overall costs. So, we have too much unnecessary medical
care being dispensed to people and I see it in doctors that want
"followup" visits well above minimum to "monitor" some condition or
situation. And, its a "free gift" because 98% of the time, the "followup
monitoring" doesn't find anything, so its _easy work_ for the doc and they
say "OK, see you again in 3 months" and they get four visits a year for
doing nothing. Gravy train.
> The upset present blinds the various parties to a broader spectrum
> view... the truth, actuality, is never at one pole or the other or a
> single facet of an issue, but in defense of a thing we tend only to
> see single facets, glarring ... so we present those. that is the
> slippery path south.
>
> India without consideration for the actual Life of its working people,
> and its underclasses will have swallowed one of the completely
> poisonous pills on that path, and will self destruct....Art may be
> attempting to point that out to you, while at the same denying your
> accurate observattions of the current scene..
India is a big mess. Even China has some big problems and they will get
bigger, too. But, they are growing and still faster than India with many
more problems. Where they will end up no one can predict. If the present
trends continue, then in 2 decades they will be the new number one.
And, I'll predict, they will also replace the US with a new Chinese
economic Imperialism. They are already buying a lot of land in
Africa, and around the world, and buying up assets and companies, too.
But, I'll also bet that in two decades, Kamal will still be bitching about
only the USA, while China eats India.
>
> The faceted aspects of both always come true in the end.... proving
> nothing ...only that each aspect has its day... and with still no view
> of tthe larger aspects of life and what makes true prosperity.... a
> wage sufficient to support a consumer economy,
If they system does not evolve to accomodate the citizens and underlings,
then we're going to end up like Russia in the 1990s.... a real stagnation
mixed with a decline. Japan has this problem now, and has had it for 20
years now (little or no growth).
Me, ...again!
There are four kinds of bankruptcy (I think):
1, personal, liquidation
2. personal, reorganization (under supervision of a judge)
3. commercial, liquidation
4. commercial, reorganization (under supervision of a judge)
I don't remember which numbers go with which case, but Chapter 7, 9, 11
are three of the ones. Beyond that, try google.
Me, ...again!
If you want to learn how countries deal with debt that they can't handle
(eg. Mexican peso crisis of '82, Argentina crisis -- two of them in the
last 30 years, and others), you'll have to read books. They do do deals
with the IMF, World Bank, etc., and reschedule the debt payments and even
do trade treaties in exchange. I'm not that familiar, and no time to look
it up for you, but I've read at least two books that talk about this.
//////////////////
kamal
> >http://www.usdebtclock.org/
>
> > First thing I would expect Bernanke to do if he gets hold of a cash-
> > cow/fountain of wealth -would be to reduce that debt to 0, so that
> > interest per citizen does not grow beyond $6000+.
>
> there is absolutely no way in hell that the USA will pay off is
> current debt, compounded by its 50 trillion++ in entitlements,
> and its completely bloated govt, with thoce civil service retirements
> at approx 5x those levels per employee,,,, and those eligible
and so you need to convince the citizenry that the fountain of wealth
does not eixist.
> for full retirment at age 51 if they began at age 21... sooner if they
> began at age 18 in the military... most police and firer retireing
> these days at 137,000 a year, then add 50,000 to that per for
> medical / dental and eye care... that mess is wont be getting cured
> any time soon... this mess will indeed hit the wall imo
>
> Regarding others with fixed views...each of us have some anchor point
> or other that locks us into a certain mental sand box...I do.. Yours
> seems to be that you are a exceedingly astute observer...you know
> that... you prove it to yourself daily, others see that you are an
> astute and accurate observer... so that 'rightness', as with any of
> us, is employed to defacto lock in or color our other views, yours
> that 'labor will find its own bottom level, depending on who will work
> cheapest;. (thats accurate)...as you have not yet seen that this
> human tendency becomes a race to the bottom without entrepreneurial
> and constitutional protections (anti monopoly measures)... that race
> to the bottom is fatal for all but 1% who end with limitless power
> (and limitless corruption, power corrupts).
>
I don't dispute that a race to the bottom is bad for everybody or
human society in general. My point is that there is nothing that
entitles americans to a higher std of living. Even if you reverse the
clock on globalization so that americans won't have to compete with
cheap labour -that still won't get you where you want. To get to a pt
where your citizenship entitles you to a good or first world std of
living, you will need a fountain of wealth that finances your
consumption. [Compare it with an Indian or mexican engineer/doctor to
understand where yoiu are right now].
regards
-kamal
Old Pif
>
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009, phil scott wrote:
> > there is absolutely no way in hell that the USA will pay off is
> > current debt, compounded by its 50 trillion++ in entitlements
>
> central banks and there are processes by which these crises are handled to
> minimize the damage. I did not say "eliminate" the damage, just minimuze
> it.
>
I believe that Phil is right in his estimate: at this stage it is
absolutely clear that the US won't pay its debts. Two factors prevent
this from happening: the size of the debt and the state of the US
economy. Even if economic perspectives have been brilliant, even in
that case it would be difficult because of the sheer size of the debt.
But the economy is basically developing in the same direction it went
before the recent crisis: it is heavily based on the stock exchange
speculations. Obama missed the chance to introduce the necessary
structural changes and instead trusts his Wall Street promoters with
the task of bringing everybody back to the gambling table.
And because there is no place on the surface of this planet where a
state can apply for bankruptcy protection and in the case of a debt as
big as the US debt one can hardly expect that IMF would be able to
help simply because it is funded by the debtor (Ponzi scheme!). The
only viable option is to devalue the currency and continue servicing
the debt with worthless electronic bites just enough to buy Tylenol
and toilet paper for the creditors.
The whole process will be spread in time. It takes a while to change
psychology. For one the Chinese still believe that they get something
back. Or perhaps they already realized that and what we see as them
buying property all over the world is an attempt to convert declining
assets in something more tangible.
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
well... I agree with you, we in the USA are NOT entitled to a higher
living standard. I dont think
a single person here would say that we are entitled to a higher
standard of living just because we
are citizens either. I think you have spun that entitlement notion
from whole cloth.
However, we surely do *behave as though we are entitled to a high
standard of living.. so i see
where you get support for your view.
The situation here is only mildly complex. there are crucial
issues. Art touches on them also. We the
people think everyone in the world is entitled to life, liberty and
the persuit of happyness...and... not to be
taken unfair advantage of. (as many of then proceed to take unfair
advantage regardless, there are
also no shortage of hyocrits, but we wish others well and routinely
legislate to take care of the less fortunate).
we could debate the fine points. but i want to move on to the
elephant in the room. Corporations.
There is a documentary type movie out about 3 years now, 'the
corporation' that explains all this.
Briefly the corporation as you know is a non human, souless entity,
with a legal obligation to its share
holders to generate a profit... run by individuals grossly motivated
by almost limitless rewards to run
amok generating billions in rewards for themselves personally... and
with the protection of the 'corporate
person' which takes any hits for the corporate crimes...but cant be
imprisioned or put out of business in
most cases by law. (corrupt law imo)... so it runs amok with no
concern for humanity...
and yes we should be able to limit such abuse, but as its sychophants,
we do not... we 'want the job' so to
speak... this cancer has now run amok (along with bloated government
in the same but not identical class).
If you wish to blame the US citizens regardless, for being idiots in
these regards, and willing pawns...in order to
insure their own relatively lush position in the world, I will join
you. But wishing dirth on others is *not at the bottom
of our wish for a good life... we feel all others should have a good
life as well.
***
and now you might be screaming HYPOCRIT at yer computer screen.
thats fine, you are not far off target.
but that is not our creed, we do not feel entitled as compared from
you.
we feel entitled as Art says we are entitled... we feel we have built
this nation, and that this nation has a constitution that says 'we the
people......' and that entitles us, as it says to freedom to work and
keep what we earn on our lands, and to invest it and grow and to free
elections and to unionize or whatever else we do to insure our
prosperity... and our forefathers wrote that, and agreed to it, and
the
nation was built on that basis...its part of us in that regard, we are
entitled to live in that roll..... so in that aspect you are correct
that we feel entitled... and I believe we are. Its part of our
contract so to speak.
You do not have such a contract in India ... for lack of such your
nation has been a nation of the destitute for centuries.. of taking
advantage, or a race to the bottom... and we the people do not wish
that on you... you do not deserve it... but thats what evolved for you
as your form of govt and mentality.... and so thats what you have
unfortunately.
we do however wish in the US to export our constitutional for of govt
to better the world in that respect...thats we the people wish that..
our military industrial complex, CIA, special interests and glorious
corporations that would wipe out all life on earth for a profit?
these have other interests. but thats not us. although we have in
fact become sychophants to that scene... and you can, and should imo
fault is for that. We are not the same people with backbones that
we were at the founding of the nation, and are about to pay the full
price for that...as you are noticing so accurately.
Still we have enough of our founding precepts in tact, that i can work
my butt off, create much of my own place in the culture and
prosper...and yes i feel entitled to that. and am happy also when you
can achieve it in your country... but NOT happy when our corrupt cabal
of corporations and government imports non citizens, to be taken
advantage of in search of thier corporate bottom line as they
engender a race to the bottom with no regard for human life here or
abroad.
Art chooses to target the US corporations..and he is not off the mark
there in the faintest imo... I however choose to target both the US
govt, and the corporate cabal that has led to this mess...further I
target the people for not having the balls or wisdom to insist on high
educational standards and retention of our constitutional *rights...
rights this nation is unique in declaring by its people and for its
people and that have become a beacon for the world.
***
It appears that there are larger special interests than just in the
USA.. there are the international money interests driving this
ablation of our rights... and taking advantage of our own ignorance in
high places...for instance as President Wilson demonstrated as he
signed the documents allowing a private bank to rule US currency....
(then a few months later, woke up and lamented what he called his
fatal decision).....thats how it is in the world... this war of
special interests..and its victims...
the US citizens now joining the ranks of those, any rejoicing over
that is not to anyones best interest... though I understand that some
gloat... and that corruption from US corporations behavior in the
world serves as ample reason to gloat about such downfall... gloating
is not anyones benefit.. that ruins its host also, because it is in
effect cheering on the destructive cabal.
a destructive cabal that wishes to control all in the world, and knows
that deprivation is the most effective tool.. Art seems to lament
that you are cheering that approach on.... even as it has decimated
your own people... with yourself blind to it because there has been an
uptick in prosperity for *some of your people in this ultra brief last
10 year time span.... but with the race to the bottom mentality still
in place... that ruins all involved in the end... even the best and
the brightest.
Your own best and brightest would not be succeeding in america if
america had become a race to the bottom itself and we all lived on pig
farms... a race to the bottom is fatal for the people. Our US
constitution legislated 180 degrees against support for such a
situation...we the people are signed onto whats left of that tattered
charter.
Phil scott
Old Pif
>
> My point is that there is nothing that
> entitles americans to a higher std of living.
>
The comical aspect of this "point" is that you are the only one who is
talking about any entitlements for the Americans.
phil scott
> On Dec 27, 1:26 am, "Me, ...again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>
> > If you want to learn how countries deal with debt that they can't handle
> > (eg. Mexican peso crisis of '82, Argentina crisis -- two of them in the
> > last 30 years, and others), you'll have to read books. They do do deals
> > with the IMF, World Bank, etc., and reschedule the debt payments and even
> > do trade treaties in exchange. I'm not that familiar, and no time to look
> > it up for you, but I've read at least two books that talk about this.
>
>
> Did creditors invade and take over other countries/kingdoms that
> defaulted on their debts?
the past is an unbroken string of nations that last 250 years or so,
not much deviation
from that.
nations as all other life forms, are born, grow, live then begin to
corrupt, and die off...i n the corrupt and die
off stage these are driven to wars of conquest since they wasted what
they built in their earlier
stages and are now well armed.... the human mind being able to
rationalize anything, then rationalizes
war....
im sure debt has played a roll, but not always apparently..for
instance we notice in the
US that this camel jockey scum over in Iraq has OUR oil under *their
sand...
such insanity however doesnt always work out well.. not withstanding
the fact we can
find plenty of their own insane behavior to justify ours. thats
how it goes in the world.
Phil scott
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009, kamal wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.usdebtclock.org/
>>
>>> First thing I would expect Bernanke to do if he gets hold of a cash-
>>> cow/fountain of wealth -would be to reduce that debt to 0, so that
>>> interest per citizen does not grow beyond $6000+.
>>
>> there is absolutely no way in hell that the USA will pay off is
>> current debt, compounded by its 50 trillion++ in entitlements,
>> and its completely bloated govt, with thoce civil service retirements
>> at approx 5x those levels per employee,,,, and those eligible
>
> and so you need to convince the citizenry that the fountain of wealth
> does not eixist.
I'm still waiting for you, Kamal, to show me any country on the planet
that does not have debt, that does not use paper money, and that does not
accept paper money. I've been asking you this question for at least five
years, now.
>> for full retirment at age 51 if they began at age 21... sooner if they
>> began at age 18 in the military... most police and firer retireing
>> these days at 137,000 a year, then add 50,000 to that per for
>> medical / dental and eye care... that mess is wont be getting cured
>> any time soon... this mess will indeed hit the wall imo
>>
>> Regarding others with fixed views...each of us have some anchor point
>> or other that locks us into a certain mental sand box...I do.. Yours
>> seems to be that you are a exceedingly astute observer...you know
>> that... you prove it to yourself daily, others see that you are an
>> astute and accurate observer... so that 'rightness', as with any of
>> us, is employed to defacto lock in or color our other views, yours
>> that 'labor will find its own bottom level, depending on who will work
>> cheapest;. (thats accurate)...as you have not yet seen that this
>> human tendency becomes a race to the bottom without entrepreneurial
>> and constitutional protections (anti monopoly measures)... that race
>> to the bottom is fatal for all but 1% who end with limitless power
>> (and limitless corruption, power corrupts).
>>
> I don't dispute that a race to the bottom is bad for everybody or
> human society in general. My point is that there is nothing that
> entitles americans to a higher std of living.
The fact is: we alredy have the higher standard of living.
You also keep ignoring the fact that Europe and Japan (also Canada, Oz)
also have the same higher standard of living.
The fact is: China is _getting_ the higher standard of living.
The fact is: India is going to have its own fountain of wealth within 1-2
decades.
Even if you reverse the
> clock on globalization so that americans won't have to compete with
> cheap labour -that still won't get you where you want.
We were doing fine before the 1970s.
To get to a pt
> where your citizenship entitles you to a good or first world std of
> living, you will need a fountain of wealth that finances your
> consumption.
Which is what we already have. No thanks to you or India.
[Compare it with an Indian or mexican engineer/doctor to
> understand where yoiu are right now].
The US economy is already supporting, directly or indirectly, some at
least billion people in the 3rd world. It can't go on.
.///////////////////////
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009, Old Pif wrote:
> On Dec 27, 1:14 am, "Me, ...again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009, phil scott wrote:
>>> there is absolutely no way in hell that the USA will pay off is
>>> current debt, compounded by its 50 trillion++ in entitlements
>>
>> It is also a fact, however, that there is some cooperation among the
>> central banks and there are processes by which these crises are handled to
>> minimize the damage. I did not say "eliminate" the damage, just minimuze
>> it.
>>
>
> I believe that Phil is right in his estimate: at this stage it is
> absolutely clear that the US won't pay its debts.
I think you're going to have to show me some headline, article, or book
that says this is going to happen or has happened.
Two factors prevent
> this from happening: the size of the debt and the state of the US
> economy.
Again, you're only able to maybe point to the AIGs, Lehman Brothers, Bear
Stearns failures. AIG is still in business. Most of the articles I'm
reading say that these big financial institutions are back in business.
So far, I'm also not reading any headlines that the govt of the USA is
defaulting on its securities, so you need to show me failure in that.
So far as I've read, the USA has never defaulted on any of its obligations
but many other countries have. Usually, when there are these problems,
some kind of "bridge loan" can be worked out, or some kind of financing.
The Asian economic crisis of '97-'98 was one such crisis where bankruptcy
(in SEAsia) was followed by outside buyups, maybe 5-10 cents on the
dollar, and losses were controlled. This is all part of capitalism, and
even in communist countries (eg. Russia) they had debts, too. I think it
was '92 when the Russians could not meet their debt obligations, and had
to be bailed out somehow.
The key issue is whether a debtor can service the debt. If they can't,
then they are really in trouble.
Even if economic perspectives have been brilliant, even in
> that case it would be difficult because of the sheer size of the debt.
Another figure you need to pay attention to is debt/GDP. Many countries
are in worse shape. Greece is one. Just in the last few days, Japan is
floating a govt stimulus package that raises its debt/GDP to higher than
ours, and what is more, they are having deflation (yesterdays, WSJ)
> But the economy is basically developing in the same direction it went
> before the recent crisis: it is heavily based on the stock exchange
> speculations. Obama missed the chance to introduce the necessary
> structural changes and instead trusts his Wall Street promoters with
> the task of bringing everybody back to the gambling table.
Well, he is up against all kinds of lobbying and so is really not free.
> And because there is no place on the surface of this planet where a
> state can apply for bankruptcy protection and in the case of a debt as
> big as the US debt one can hardly expect that IMF would be able to
> help simply because it is funded by the debtor (Ponzi scheme!).
So far, the US is the so-called "lender of last resort" and you can find
this discussed in economics books. Yes, at some point if we really do have
a collapse (a situation I think that is not impossible), then its not just
going to be the US, but a big fraction of the rest of the world (all that
depend on the US "cash cow" to support their economies) that gets hurt,
too.
The
> only viable option is to devalue the currency and continue servicing
> the debt with worthless electronic bites just enough to buy Tylenol
> and toilet paper for the creditors.
It will be no Tylenol, and use old Sears catalogs for toilet paper, not
real toilet paper.
> The whole process will be spread in time. It takes a while to change
> psychology. For one the Chinese still believe that they get something
> back. Or perhaps they already realized that and what we see as them
> buying property all over the world is an attempt to convert declining
> assets in something more tangible.
I don't think it is so easy to predict the result because of all the
secondary effects and I'm not even going to attempt to list them, let
alone predict. There are all kinds of gurus out ther (eg. Bloomberg, and
email newsletter guys selling all kinds of wisdom and they are also
selling books, brokerage services, etc., anything to get your money).
I think its very funny that the Chinese were upset with Bernanke over such
low interest rates. Secondary effect: people dump USD and buy Yen & Euros,
and over the last year until recently, USD went down (bad on the surface,
but good for reducing trade deficits, too). All kinds of secondary
effects. Cheap USD, means FDI will come back to US, too.
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009, Old Pif wrote:
What is comical for me is how Kamal talks, and how the rest of India is
scrambling as fast as it can to emulate the USA and western ways.
Me, ...again!
I would hope to petition you to think if any human beings have any rights
at all. Do you have a right to the air you breath? The sunlight?
Do you need anything else (food, housing) for example? And the stores,
owners have a right to get paid for these? And, how are you going to pay
for those things? Suppose you are fully acknowledged, admitted, and
willing to work? If THEY have a right to get paid, don't you have a right
to a means to get paid? Back in the caveman days, everything was "free"
only you had to do work to harvest food, hunt the animals, and make
housing out of available free materials.
But, today, there are lots of willing and experienced people with job
history, and what do we have? Labor dumping by all the countries that
can't make jobs for their own people!
I dont think
> a single person here would say that we are entitled to a higher
> standard of living just because we
> are citizens either. I think you have spun that entitlement notion
> from whole cloth.
I'd like to ask you what your prediction would be if anyone came along and
said over television "OK, all you people here in the USA are going to give
up your cars, give up your houses, and go on food rations at half what
you're getting now" and tell me nothing is going to happen.
I'll tell you how I'd feel and if you want to guess, then you'd better
guess right.
> However, we surely do *behave as though we are entitled to a high
> standard of living.. so i see
> where you get support for your view.
Just don't forget to ask Kamal (and the other impudent Indians) why they
think they are "entitled" to damage our standard of living.
> The situation here is only mildly complex. there are crucial
> issues. Art touches on them also. We the
> people think everyone in the world is entitled to life, liberty and
> the persuit of happyness...and... not to be
> taken unfair advantage of. (as many of then proceed to take unfair
> advantage regardless, there are
> also no shortage of hyocrits, but we wish others well and routinely
> legislate to take care of the less fortunate).
>
> we could debate the fine points. but i want to move on to the
> elephant in the room. Corporations.
This is an important point.
>
> There is a documentary type movie out about 3 years now, 'the
> corporation' that explains all this.
>
> Briefly the corporation as you know is a non human, souless entity,
> with a legal obligation to its share
> holders to generate a profit... run by individuals grossly motivated
> by almost limitless rewards to run
> amok generating billions in rewards for themselves personally... and
> with the protection of the 'corporate
> person' which takes any hits for the corporate crimes...but cant be
> imprisioned or put out of business in
> most cases by law. (corrupt law imo)... so it runs amok with no
> concern for humanity...
I'm waiting for your next question, and I'll tell you what its going to
be: "Why do corporations feel "entitled" to obscene executive
compensation, excessive profits, and to screw underling employees"?
> and yes we should be able to limit such abuse, but as its sychophants,
> we do not... we 'want the job' so to
> speak... this cancer has now run amok (along with bloated government
> in the same but not identical class).
Still waiting for that question about corporation "entitlement" that THEY
can have, but ordinary Americans can't have.
> If you wish to blame the US citizens regardless, for being idiots in
> these regards, and willing pawns...in order to
> insure their own relatively lush position in the world, I will join
> you.
Just remember that the standard of living in India is going up, too, just
like in China, and both you and Kamal have not yet acknowledged that THEY
feel this "entitlement" to a higher standard of living and they are
working on it, too. Tata is selling Nanos like hot cakes in India, and
soon that is going to stimulate THEIR economy, and Kamal is still biased
so he can't even see this happening.
Tambi Dude is another dud.
But wishing dirth on others is *not at the bottom
> of our wish for a good life... we feel all others should have a good
> life as well.
Kamal and his buddies have been throwing dirt, mud, stones at the US for
at least 5-10 years. I've never met an immigrant ethnic group like
arrogant Indians. Everyone else is thankful for what the USA has done for
them.
///////////////////////////
Old Pif
>
> > I believe that Phil is right in his estimate: at this stage it is
> > absolutely clear that the US won't pay its debts.
>
> I think you're going to have to show me some headline, article, or book
> that says this is going to happen or has happened.
>
It is all in WSJ. Compare the rates of debt accumulation to the growth
of the GDP and tax collection and you see that the first one is higher
than the others. What it tells me is that progressively higher portion
of the GDP will go for servicing the debt.
To stabilize the situation simply you need either the rate of debt
growth diminishes or reverse the sign or/and economy growth with the
higher rate.
None of that is observed now and moreover it is not clear what might
cause the reverse the trend.
Clearly all said is based on the linear interpolation. In non-linear
world troubles start much earlier
>
> Again, you're only able to maybe point to the AIGs, Lehman Brothers, Bear
> Stearns failures. AIG is still in business. Most of the articles I'm
> reading say that these big financial institutions are back in business.
>
True, but for the price of debt skyrocketing. The TARP package has
been organized on credit. The government does not have this money. The
hope is that they pay this money back but you never know. All depends
on how they perform economically ...
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009, Old Pif wrote:
> On Dec 27, 3:26 pm, "Me, ...again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>> I believe that Phil is right in his estimate: at this stage it is
>>> absolutely clear that the US won't pay its debts.
>>
>> I think you're going to have to show me some headline, article, or book
>> that says this is going to happen or has happened.
>>
>
> It is all in WSJ. Compare the rates of debt accumulation to the growth
> of the GDP and tax collection and you see that the first one is higher
> than the others. What it tells me is that progressively higher portion
> of the GDP will go for servicing the debt.
Well, we had a lot of this problem back in 1970s with "stagflation" and
interest rates going up to obscene levels through Volcker who was trying
to fight Reagan's "supply side" economics (the big Reagan tax cut dumped a
lot of extra money into mostly rich pockets, and the defense spending,
also by Reagan, went into outer space too [did the US shoot itself in the
foot instead of the USSR?]) and that caused a lot of inflation, big
expansion of national debt (because DoD spending went up a lot and tax
revenue went down because of tax cuts, and neither Republicans nor
Democrats bothered to worry--publically--about national debt).
Now, bear in mind that I am not saying there is nothing to worry about,
and I am making no predictions. However, we've been through this before,
too. I just don't feel particularly worried. If we had anything like
Soviet/Russian economic problems of the 1990s, and Russian Rouble
worthless (really worthless, not Kamalnomics worthless), then I would be
very worried.
> To stabilize the situation simply you need either the rate of debt
> growth diminishes or reverse the sign or/and economy growth with the
> higher rate.
>
> None of that is observed now and moreover it is not clear what might
> cause the reverse the trend.
From my past recollections, recovery from recessions follows a curve that
is similar from one to the next. Lots of stories are also coming out that
parts of our economy are recovering and lets watch for more reports on
Xmas spending. Tambi Dude was saying his shopping mall was packed like
Indias population density (hah!), and if tons of money gets spent, then it
is like gasoline on the fire.
> Clearly all said is based on the linear interpolation. In non-linear
> world troubles start much earlier
Just remember, we're still the richest country with the highest standard
of living and 75% of all business transactions in the world are paid for
with money denominated in the USD. That is a lot of momentum. I don't
think it will be like the Titanic hitting an iceberg.
That example is found with Iceland, which really shot itself in the foot.
>> Again, you're only able to maybe point to the AIGs, Lehman Brothers, Bear
>> Stearns failures. AIG is still in business. Most of the articles I'm
>> reading say that these big financial institutions are back in business.
>>
>
> True, but for the price of debt skyrocketing. The TARP package has
> been organized on credit. The government does not have this money.
Governments, like kings of old days, have the power of magic.
The
> hope is that they pay this money back but you never know. All depends
> on how they perform economically ...
The problem of kings of old days is that sometimes they repudiated their
debt. Do you know what that means?
So, if there is a real problem? Maybe Obama calls Bill Gates ($50 billion
net worth), Warren Buffet ($50 billion net worth), and the Walton family
($100 billion in net worth), ask for a favor?
Yeah, I know. Its a sick joke.
Seriously, OK, what did you want? Bernanke/Paulson to not bail out
AIG...Chrysler/GM? And, have what, 5-10 more million people out of work?
Every major country on the planet generated bailouts for their economy,
even India. I think none of them had that money sitting in a bank. China
said it forced the banks to extend credit to keep their economy going. How
do you think they did that? Chinese bank say: "OK, Chinese factory, you
need cash flow and you have no orders? OK, just take out checkbook and
write whatever you need, and we add it to your tab."
You read how the US/IMF organized rescheduled Mexican debt, Latin American
debt, and its a similar process. See? Isn't Enron accounting wonderful? As
long as there is "Uncle Sam" out there to back you up, you can pull lots
of rabbits out of the hat per microsecond.
And, I laugh at a WSJ article a month ago where 50% of economists said
there would be inflation and another 50% said there would not be
inflation.
Ne? I am not going to make any bets on that.
P.S. maybe you should take some money out of the bank as cash and hide it
in your mattress?
Old Pif
>
> From my past recollections, recovery from recessions follows a curve that
> is similar from one to the next.
>
Well, that has been in the background of stable economic fundamentals.
This time around the fundamentals have changed. That is the problem.
Here is an analysis that worries me:
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16639
kamal
> On Dec 27, 5:00 am, kamal <kama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> we feel entitled as Art says we are entitled... we feel we have built
> this nation, and that this nation has a constitution that says 'we the
> people......' and that entitles us, as it says to freedom to work and
> keep what we earn on our lands, and to invest it and grow and to free
> elections and to unionize or whatever else we do to insure our
> prosperity... and our forefathers wrote that, and agreed to it, and
> the
> nation was built on that basis...its part of us in that regard, we are
> entitled to live in that roll..... so in that aspect you are correct
> that we feel entitled... and I believe we are. Its part of our
> contract so to speak.
>
this way -you are a wheat (or calif oranges or washington apples)
grower -and you want the market where you offload your produce to give
you 10x the amount that would normally be paid to equally good produce
from other countries. Is there something that entitles you to that
extra money?
> You do not have such a contract in India ... for lack of such your
> nation has been a nation of the destitute for centuries.. of taking
> advantage, or a race to the bottom... and we the people do not wish
your understanding seems incorrect. The nation named India didn't
exist prior to 1947 -just as Iraq didn't. It was built out of the
wreckage of a crumbling british empire by cobbling up several princely
states (and british residencies). Till about 3-4 centuries back -India
was a term used to denote a land of unparalleled riches (esp gold).
That explains why columbus set sail in search of India and was really
excited to see similar colored people in the americas. When the
british took over, they went about systematically destroying the local
economy and the region witnessed several famines as soon as they took
control (in different places).
> that on you... you do not deserve it... but thats what evolved for you
> as your form of govt and mentality.... and so thats what you have
> unfortunately.
>
Every culture/civilization goes through its ups and downs. What you
have seen is probably the dark side of Indus valley civilization
> we do however wish in the US to export our constitutional for of govt
> to better the world in that respect...thats we the people wish that..
> our military industrial complex, CIA, special interests and glorious
> corporations that would wipe out all life on earth for a profit?
> these have other interests. but thats not us. although we have in
> fact become sychophants to that scene... and you can, and should imo
> fault is for that. We are not the same people with backbones that
> we were at the founding of the nation, and are about to pay the full
> price for that...as you are noticing so accurately.
>
> Still we have enough of our founding precepts in tact, that i can work
> my butt off, create much of my own place in the culture and
> prosper...and yes i feel entitled to that. and am happy also when you
> can achieve it in your country... but NOT happy when our corrupt cabal
> of corporations and government imports non citizens, to be taken
> advantage of in search of thier corporate bottom line as they
> engender a race to the bottom with no regard for human life here or
> abroad.
>
> Art chooses to target the US corporations..and he is not off the mark
A corporation is just a name for a profit-making business. The
merchants of yesteryears have been replaced by corporations -wherein
several owners jostle for strategic control, and the public can also
take ownership (of profits at least) by investing into it. No investor
will put money into a venture unless it yields a return on investment.
If you want them to invest money so as to bestow the workforce with a
good std of living -regardless of how much ROI they get from it, that
isn't going to happen -regardless of whom you elect as the next
president.
> there in the faintest imo... I however choose to target both the US
> govt, and the corporate cabal that has led to this mess...further I
> target the people for not having the balls or wisdom to insist on high
> educational standards and retention of our constitutional *rights...
> rights this nation is unique in declaring by its people and for its
> people and that have become a beacon for the world.
>
> ***
> It appears that there are larger special interests than just in the
> USA.. there are the international money interests driving this
> ablation of our rights... and taking advantage of our own ignorance in
yes -there is something like a global pump that influences policies.
They want the best deal for their money and you can say that they want
to do it at the expense of your rights -or that they do not want you
to exercise your rights at their expense. If you want a higher std of
living than anybody else, you need to find ways to finance it.
regards
-kamal
> high places...for instance as President Wilson demonstrated as he
> signed the documents allowing a private bank to rule US currency....
> (then a few months later, woke up and lamented what he called his
> fatal decision).....thats how it is in the world... this war of
> special interests..and its victims...
>
> the US citizens now joining the ranks of those, any rejoicing over
> that is not to anyones best interest... though I understand that some
> gloat... and that corruption from US corporations behavior in the
> world serves as ample reason to gloat about such downfall... gloating
> is not anyones benefit.. that ruins its host also, because it is in
> effect cheering on the destructive cabal.
>
> a destructive cabal that wishes to control all in the world, and knows
> that ...
>
> read more »
phil scott
> On Dec 27, 10:12 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:> On Dec 27, 5:00 am, kamal <kama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > we feel entitled as Art says we are entitled... we feel we have built
> > this nation, and that this nation has a constitution that says 'we the
> > people......' and that entitles us, as it says to freedom to work and
> > keep what we earn on our lands, and to invest it and grow and to free
> > elections and to unionize or whatever else we do to insure our
> > prosperity... and our forefathers wrote that, and agreed to it, and
> > the
> > nation was built on that basis...its part of us in that regard, we are
> > entitled to live in that roll..... so in that aspect you are correct
> > that we feel entitled... and I believe we are. Its part of our
> > contract so to speak.
>
> I wasn't talking of someone taking away your land etc.. Think of it
> this way -you are a wheat (or calif oranges or washington apples)
> grower -and you want the market where you offload your produce to give
> you 10x the amount that would normally be paid to equally good produce
> from other countries. Is there something that entitles you to that
> extra money?
You are attempting to defend your accurate and correct views... its a
waste of time.
You have framed this situation as a desire for 'entitlement'... so you
are correct framed that way.
We here in the USA dont see it as an entitlement..but as selling for
as much as the buyer is willing
to pay... Yourself now, being very bright, will respond
victoriously...'well same with labor, why should
any employer pay more than hes to for labor'
and yet, once again, in this long series,... you would be right.. not
partially right, not slighlty right but
entierly right. that is when you frame the case as an entitlement.
**
If you frame the case as what is viable for a nation, a **prosperous
nation, with even its poorest living better than most people
in some other nations... *then... you see the real issue....
*** subsistence pay, produces a subistence culture and nation ***
No one wins that way. Adequate pay, allows people to buy, that
drives manufacture, and a robust economy.
The deprived view you see in much of the world is self
perpetuating. Our US constitution by its civil rights provisions,
allows
free enterprise, and that includes for labor, it can unionize etc...
this drives prosperity for the working class, that drives sales and
that drives manufacture...and prosperity.
>
> > You do not have such a contract in India ... for lack of such your
> > nation has been a nation of the destitute for centuries.. of taking
> > advantage, or a race to the bottom... and we the people do not wish
>
> your understanding seems incorrect. The nation named India didn't
> exist prior to 1947 -just as Iraq didn't. It was built out of the
> wreckage of a crumbling british empire by cobbling up several princely
> states (and british residencies). Till about 3-4 centuries back -India
> was a term used to denote a land of unparalleled riches (esp gold).
thanks for the background.
> That explains why columbus set sail in search of India and was really
> excited to see similar colored people in the americas. When the
> british took over, they went about systematically destroying the local
> economy and the region witnessed several famines as soon as they took
> control (in different places).
You have pointed your finger at what Geronemo called the white mans
disease...and a
disease it is too.
Not endemic to all white men, not our working classes as a rule, but
at
the top... it has decimated many cultures, and our own. and I see
India as well... accounting
quite justifiably for the negative views some indians have of the
english and the blossoming
herds of white elephants roaming the malls of the america's.
pleeze notice though that you are adopting some of our corporations
poisonous notions relative
to what i am calling a race to the bottom... maybe that will be the
white mans second dose of
poison into india. If india decides to fuel its own consumer culture
with sufficent pay and opportunity,
it will once again be prosperous... in fact that may be both the
definition and root cause of prosperity.
think about it... it is how the USA gained its domnance (but only
after our own ruthless corporate monopolies
of the 1800's were legislated against...in that time frame we had
small children working for insufficient food in
our own US factories.
We need to to correct that sort of thing yet again in the US...our US
corporate cabal with govt has once again
become corrupt..... India is not wise to follow in our corrupted foot
steps...
Having said that it seems each
of the other versions of mankind has its own error... fatal
superstitions and etc.
From what Ive seen of the now blossoming indian intelect it should be
able to fathom its way out of that pit... its
joint ventures however with US corporations, who are driving this race
to the bottom will lock india out of any such
advance... imo.
>
> Every culture/civilization goes through its ups and downs. What you
> have seen is probably the dark side of Indus valley civilization
no doubt, as an american ive been preoccupied here... and dont know
much first
hand of other nations..
>
>
=
>
> A corporation is just a name for a profit-making business.
No.. you have missed badly and to the core here. very badly. as most
americans do also.
it will pay you to find 'the corporation' on CD ..a film that
describes the mess in unbiased detail..
a corporation at its core is a legal entity that cannot be held
effectively accountable for the crimes
of its management, nor the management held effectively
accountable...all driven by non human interests.
cash... the bottom line. it has become in not just a few cases the
darkest of evils.
it might pay you..and india generally to understand this new breed of
toxin... Id suggest India does
not swallow its second dose (the first so generiously provided by
England as you mention).
>The
> merchants of yesteryears have been replaced by corporations -wherein
> several owners jostle for strategic control, and the public can also
> take ownership (of profits at least) by investing into it.
thats the theory...in practice if you are studied on the *long term
scene,* most
investors are screwed... stay tuned as its all about to go out the
bottom in the US, and
stay there for a few decades. Corruption ruins all it touches.
that film, 'the corporation'..and a previous one of similar title get
into those nauseating
details... india is being set up for another round of hose jobs from
that quarter.... encouraged
by a period of relative prosperity for a minority... long term its a
trap. I urge you to
look into those issues.
>No investor
> will put money into a venture unless it yields a return on investment.
You are theoretically correct..and factually about as wrong as it
gets...
investors are often not bright at all, and the real facts and net
value of corporations
spun completely...right to the pits.
You need to learn something about investments... you might look at
my posts to
Misc.invest.stocks and others in those threads. Yourself and
most americans have
little clue on the depth of the current frauds (supported by govt no
less)
> If you want them to invest money so as to bestow the workforce with a
> good std of living -regardless of how much ROI they get from it, that
> isn't going to happen -regardless of whom you elect as the next
> president.
yes thats true, but without regulations to protect those who produce,
affording them a living sufficient to
buy and consume.........** there is no manufacture... there is no
prosperity**
a key point you are missing here, and a point US corporations and govt
is missing. You are not alone in
your view. but that view is what is driving this race to the
bottom.... stay tuned for the completely nasty fallout,
we sont have long to wait.
>
> > there in the faintest imo... I however choose to target both the US
> > govt, and the corporate cabal that has led to this mess...further I
> > target the people for not having the balls or wisdom to insist on high
> > educational standards and retention of our constitutional *rights...
> > rights this nation is unique in declaring by its people and for its
> > people and that have become a beacon for the world.
>
> > ***
> > It appears that there are larger special interests than just in the
> > USA.. there are the international money interests driving this
> > ablation of our rights... and taking advantage of our own ignorance in
>
> yes -there is something like a global pump that influences policies.
> They want the best deal for their money and you can say that they want
> to do it at the expense of your rights -or that they do not want you
> to exercise your rights at their expense. If you want a higher std of
> living than anybody else, you need to find ways to finance it.
I agree here except for your last two words... 'finance is not the
solution... equitable pay
for equally equitable work, *both sufficient to the needs needs to be
supported. that is not
the case today in the US... we have corrupted free enterprise, and
internationally free trade by
use of what I am calling slave labor (people working for a bunk and a
bowl of rice who have
no purchasing power).
we have also corrupted finance... we are in deep trouble world
wide...whats next will be ugly. that is also
a repeating cycle in world history.
Phil scott
>
> regards
> -kamal
>
>
>
> > high places...for instance as President Wilson demonstrated as he
> > signed the documents allowing a private bank to rule US currency....
> > (then a few months later, woke up and lamented what he called his
> > fatal decision).....thats how it is in the world... this war of
> > special interests..and its victims...
>
> > the US citizens now joining the ranks of those, any rejoicing over
> > that is not to anyones best interest... though I understand that some
> > gloat... and that corruption from US corporations behavior in the
> > world serves as ample reason to gloat about such downfall... gloating
> > is not anyones benefit.. that ruins its host also, because it is in
> > effect cheering on the destructive cabal.
>
> > a destructive cabal that wishes to control all in the world, and knows
> > that ...
>
> > read more »- Hide quoted text -
Old Pif
> Yourself now, being very bright, will respond victoriously...
Phil, you are the most generous person I ever met!
Me, ...again!
On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, kamal wrote:
> On Dec 27, 10:12 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>> On Dec 27, 5:00 am, kamal <kama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> we feel entitled as Art says we are entitled... we feel we have built
>> this nation, and that this nation has a constitution that says 'we the
>> people......' and that entitles us, as it says to freedom to work and
>> keep what we earn on our lands, and to invest it and grow and to free
>> elections and to unionize or whatever else we do to insure our
>> prosperity... and our forefathers wrote that, and agreed to it, and
>> the
>> nation was built on that basis...its part of us in that regard, we are
>> entitled to live in that roll..... so in that aspect you are correct
>> that we feel entitled... and I believe we are. Its part of our
>> contract so to speak.
>>
> I wasn't talking of someone taking away your land etc.. Think of it
> this way -you are a wheat (or calif oranges or washington apples)
> grower -and you want the market where you offload your produce to give
> you 10x the amount that would normally be paid to equally good produce
> from other countries. Is there something that entitles you to that
> extra money?
Why don't you ask yourself the question: Why do corporations, no matter
where they are, or whose country they are located in, always seek the
highest net profit possible?
Why don't you think how a country can cheat to help its own corporations
generate jobs by devaluing its own currency.
And, that is the simple truth. I know of no company that will make its own
prices as low as possible without forcing, using any method possible, to
get its labor as cheap as possible. And, a lot of corporations use other
methods to maximize profits.
>> You do not have such a contract in India ... for lack of such your
>> nation has been a nation of the destitute for centuries.. of taking
>> advantage, or a race to the bottom... and we the people do not wish
>
> your understanding seems incorrect. The nation named India didn't
> exist prior to 1947 -just as Iraq didn't.
The land and its people were known as "India" and "Indians" from way
before Columbus' time. 1947 was only a date of independence and claim to
nationhood.
It was built out of the
> wreckage of a crumbling british empire by cobbling up several princely
> states (and british residencies).
Actually, India took decades to even develop a sense of "nationality" and
"country" before the independence movement became aware the "Indians" were
a people with their own identity.
Before that India was a disorganized bunch of gangs, speaking (and still
speaking) many different languages, irreconcilable ethnic diferences, and
massive poverty. Still true today.
Till about 3-4 centuries back -India
> was a term used to denote a land of unparalleled riches (esp gold).
All three of the history books I've read now tell that India was a big
mess for at least 3,000 years, and besides some cultural details, temples,
and a little bit of sanscrit writings, mostly dust and cows wandering the
streets shitting wherever they pleased. Unparalleled riches? I think not.
> That explains why columbus set sail in search of India and was really
> excited to see similar colored people in the americas.
What Columbus was looking for was a shorter route for trade purposes. The
trade was already there.
When the
> british took over, they went about systematically destroying the local
> economy and the region witnessed several famines as soon as they took
> control (in different places).
Actually, the story is mixed. The British set up imperial
(administrative) control and managed the trade, and they also introduced
education, trains-railroads, telegraph communication, and many
improvements, and they also cleaned out the Thuggee's who were India's
Indians killing, by ritual murder, other India Indians.
>> that on you... you do not deserve it... but thats what evolved for you
>> as your form of govt and mentality.... and so thats what you have
>> unfortunately.
>>
> Every culture/civilization goes through its ups and downs. What you
> have seen is probably the dark side of Indus valley civilization
And, it is hard to find much description of anything good in India.
>> we do however wish in the US to export our constitutional for of govt
>> to better the world in that respect...thats we the people wish that..
>> our military industrial complex, CIA, special interests and glorious
>> corporations that would wipe out all life on earth for a profit?
>> these have other interests. but thats not us. although we have in
>> fact become sychophants to that scene... and you can, and should imo
>> fault is for that. We are not the same people with backbones that
>> we were at the founding of the nation, and are about to pay the full
>> price for that...as you are noticing so accurately.
>>
>> Still we have enough of our founding precepts in tact, that i can work
>> my butt off, create much of my own place in the culture and
>> prosper...and yes i feel entitled to that. and am happy also when you
>> can achieve it in your country... but NOT happy when our corrupt cabal
>> of corporations and government imports non citizens, to be taken
>> advantage of in search of thier corporate bottom line as they
>> engender a race to the bottom with no regard for human life here or
>> abroad.
>>
>> Art chooses to target the US corporations..and he is not off the mark
>
> A corporation is just a name for a profit-making business. The
> merchants of yesteryears have been replaced by corporations -wherein
> several owners jostle for strategic control, and the public can also
> take ownership (of profits at least) by investing into it. No investor
> will put money into a venture unless it yields a return on investment.
This is not different from persons who won't do work unless they pay is
high enough (or they are so desperate that they will take any job).
> If you want them to invest money so as to bestow the workforce with a
> good std of living -regardless of how much ROI they get from it, that
> isn't going to happen -regardless of whom you elect as the next
> president.
The point Kamal is confused about is that the executives of these
corporatons consider themselves "entitled" to enrich themselves far beyond
any kind of justifiable and meritable level of compensation and the WSJ
and many books have been written about this.
>> there in the faintest imo... I however choose to target both the US
>> govt, and the corporate cabal that has led to this mess...further I
>> target the people for not having the balls or wisdom to insist on high
>> educational standards and retention of our constitutional *rights...
>> rights this nation is unique in declaring by its people and for its
>> people and that have become a beacon for the world.
>>
>> ***
>> It appears that there are larger special interests than just in the
>> USA.. there are the international money interests driving this
>> ablation of our rights... and taking advantage of our own ignorance in
>
> yes -there is something like a global pump that influences policies.
> They want the best deal for their money and you can say that they want
> to do it at the expense of your rights -or that they do not want you
> to exercise your rights at their expense. If you want a higher std of
> living than anybody else,
We built our high standard of living country starting in 1787 when our
constitutional form of government was established and all of our work
involved science and technology and expansions and improvements.
> you need to find ways to finance it.
We need to find ways to get it written into laws such as minimum wage, and
keep foreigners out of the USA, and fight unfair currency devaluations.
Now, Europe has approached China, as well as the USA, to let its currency
rise to where it should be. If that does not happen, then maybe 1-2-3
years from now, the western world will surely make new and radical changes
to get itself out from under China's currency grip.
And, China's holdings of US Treasury securities is no big deal. I think it
is funny that China has something to be mad at the US for: low interest
rates on those securities. And, if China sells USD, then USD will go down
and they will lose more money, too. And, where could they put their money?
Into Euros, Yen? Those prices will go up a lot, and make Japan and Europe
mad at China.
Benanke is not so dumb.
//////////////
Me, ...again!
No, I think what you should start doing is thinking about your "rights" to
life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You have economic rights to
Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, disability, and many other programs
and I have to ask you why you are so willing to rescind, abdicate, or
otherwise give up the rights that come with the political/social/economic
infrastructure of this country.
And, why-oh-why, are you so willing to just hand all that over to someone
born someplace else or has not become a naturalized citizen?
Or, do you not consider yourself an _American_?
I'd really like to have your thoughts on all that.
Kamal is just trying a coy way to undermine your beleifs, rights, and
freedoms and get you to just "give up" to him.
///////////////////////////////
Me, ...again!
Phil, are you sure you are not "brown-nosing" or "apple-polishing" with
Old Pif?
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009, Old Pif wrote:
OK, I had a quick look, and downloaded the whole page to read it all,
later.
Yes, that is happening. My short answer is that there is a fight going on,
and has been going on for a few decades. The transistion was 1970s when
lots of things changed, including how the US gave up the electronics
industry and how Japan (and Taiwan, S. Korea, etc.) won this industry.
Fine for them, bad for us. Now, its everything else (IT to India,
manufacturing to China), and just wait till Ratan Tata starts exporting
Nanos to the USA in 2011. China already has a jet transport plane and they
are going to start selling that to the US in about 5 years, and they are
going to keep (so Wen Jintao said recently) their exchange rate like it
is. So, that is the "tilt" that can only be fought with tarriffs, and if
the WTO falls appart, then guess what happens.
The long decline is a problem. And, it's already been going on for a few
decades.
All this crazy debt: I think it is a very bad idea for kids to be going to
college on debt, and then come out and can't find a job with their degree.
So, that, and credit card debt are big problems, too.
You really need to get the book "Trading Places" where Japan got our
industries, authored by Clyde Prestowitcz (not sure on the spelling, but
if you want, I'll check). The blame: Japan did not play "free trade" with
the USA and USA did not get tough with Japan. Washington, DC, living in
its own world of unreality, saw itself all along as "number one" and not
in decline, and preoccupied with "soviet" threat that was never a threat.
So, the US govt did NOT help our industries against Japanese
robber-barronism, but the Japanese society is all complete with
cooperative relationships between companies and govt so Japan came into
this economic war much better prepared to win, and they did.
Now, where is Japan today? They are in deep trouble themselves. They have
done the same thing: export factories to China. Larger fractions of their
workforce are now part-time, temporary, and low paid. What happened to
those lifetime guaranteed jobs that Japanese citizens were "entitled" to
in past decades (just think what Kamal is always telling us about
"entitlements" and that we don't deserve them...bullshit, I say)? Japan's
upper manangement got "Americanized" for pure profit and to hell with the
people farther down. So, they are on a suicide, long path down, too.
Japan even has an X,Y-generation problem among its youth, and most of it
is due to no opportunities for a job.
Europe is doing a little bit better and part of it is they are fighting
Chinese imports more energetically, but they also have their robber-barron
CEOs, and rich people who don't care about anything except more profits.
The biggest evil of capitalism is that it is totally focused on doing
anything just for money. Human culture, on the other hand, recognizes that
we need to do some things because they need to be done. We celebrate
holidays, eat ice cream, listen to music, all for fun, or for relatives we
love, or other good deeds, not just the bottom line.
And, then we have Kamal Prasad, giving us "lectures" on hard-ball
economics (otherwise known as: the only people "entitled" to anything are
the CEOs and rich people) and trying to get us to forget our culture of
Old Pif
>
> and so you need to convince the citizenry that the fountain of wealth
> does not exist.
>
I don't know anything about this notorious fountain of wealth whatever
it means. The only fountain I observe is a fountain of bullshit that
erupted from your posts.
phil scott
its not generocity... it is dilligence in parsing the accuracy from
any
view, my own or others
I do it for my own benefit primarily... denying one reality or the
other or some facet of it
leaves me operating with bogus insights, thats fatal
eeing all facets of a situation, rather than defending just the few I
can see personally advances my own insight.
Kamal is maybe 99 percent accurate on the facets of the situation that
he can see from his position and
background... and he like the rest of us is blind to the facets he
cannot see, is prejudiced against or etc.
He has broadened my view recently on why some indians gloat ,.. India
haa been hosed by the english for
a few centuries previously,,, now that mentality is tanking so some
indians gloat Ias they swallow the latest
poison pill from the west, a race to the bottom by use of slave labor)
I had known a lot of this prior to my conversations with Kamal on the
NG, now I have a more complete view and it
is because I took the pains to see in which aspects Kamal was right or
accurate,,, same with western civilization or
anything, even engineering... the more facets of a scene you get a
look at the more viable the solutions etc.
also in this discussion it has become clearer that Arts views
regarding entitlement not only hold water but are vital to
the fair and long term viable exchange between capitol and labor...
a key issue i was not even aware of previously
it seems to me that India if it is to survive, and the US as a world
power will be dependent on not starving
out their working classes,.. the net consumer base,,, the fountain of
all sales, manufacturing to support those sales and profit for
capitolists serving this market
Phil scott
phil scott
what is important from Kamal is his viewpoint,,,its vital to
understand his reality from
his viewpoint for many reasons, it is what drives indian business,
and it is what is dominant
in US corporations;... refuting it, without understaning why it is
'right' within that particular
contest is the height of folly.
akin to walking into a dark alley with a pocket knife assuming that
one is the badddest... a fal\tal mistake.
it is vital to see the strengths of all other positions... not just
ones won.
Please notice that it is the view pont Kamal represents that is
currently dominating in the US as well.. winner
take the spoils.... understand that in all of its facets is the only
way to see, understand and shape the larger scene
brisstling at it deprives one of the chance to examine it fully
and to determine why it is currently so dominant.. if you
dont get a clean look at why,,, you will be ranting in the dark with
no progress,
Phil scott
Me, ...again!
He is talking about the big pile of USD that actually runs the world, is
used to pay 75% of all bills in the world (I can cite references on this
[see footnote[) and has been running the world for the last 50 years, and
probably will still have a respectable piece of the pie for another 50 years.
Unfortunately Kamal can't see it because he has his head in the sand.
footnote: do google search on "reserve currency" you should get lots of
comments.
Me, ...again!
What is needed if underlings are to get a fair piece of the pie is a big
revision in the priorities in the USA. You can buy into "Kamal's view"
which is no different than what many of us knew for decades: cheap
currency means cheap labor. I remember Chinese renminbi major devaluations
when they were announced in our media back in early 1990s and I knew exactly
what it meant for US jobs and the retail market. What I did not know was
the slow devaluations of the Indian Rupee, but I found out about that just
by looking in one of my Almanacs, and reading Indian history. The Japan
story is in three books I have on this problem; Japan played OUR free
markets, but blocked imports from the USA and our govt did nothing. Now,
with China making imports too expensive, they are on the road to squeezing
the rest of the blood out of the USA.
Immigrants can be exploited and are. Companies have become so focused on
the greedy-selfish imperitive that they care only for the bottom line and
not a zip about the economic health of society.
Instead of rehashing all this for the last five years, anyone who really
wants to do something about this would be better off joining union efforts
as well as small business efforts to get the attention of our govt to slap
tarriffs on imports. The problem is that the population will see this not
as job protection but an action that will cause prices to rise and thus it
will be perceived as (short term) wrong move. Then, our politicians are in
the hands of the lobbyists. Hence, maybe a recovery from this spiral to
the bottom is impossible. But, one can always hope.
>
>
>
> Phil scott
>
Me, ...again!
On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, morris croy wrote:
> On Dec 28, 5:58 pm, "Me, ...again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>> our culture of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
>
> This was very much a lie from the beginning too.
>
The only way I can explain your sentence is if we accept that the "power
structure" always favored the rich and powerful over the poor and
powerless.
However, against your sentence, the history books all tell stories in
which life and opportunities (for underlings) in England/Europe really was
worse over there than here. And, in 1930s-40s and 50s, much worse,
overall, in the Soviet Union and east block, from which we got a lot of
immigrants (and they were sure a lot more appreciative of the USA than
these arrogant Indians).
kamal
> We here in the USA dont see it as an entitlement..but as selling for
> as much as the buyer is willing
> to pay... Yourself now, being very bright, will respond
> victoriously...'well same with labor, why should
> any employer pay more than hes to for labor'
>
Its not my idea. Ref:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
> and yet, once again, in this long series,... you would be right.. not
> partially right, not slighlty right but
> entierly right. that is when you frame the case as an entitlement.
>
> **
> If you frame the case as what is viable for a nation, a **prosperous
> nation, with even its poorest living better than most people
> in some other nations... *then... you see the real issue....
>
> *** subsistence pay, produces a subistence culture and nation ***
>
> No one wins that way. Adequate pay, allows people to buy, that
> drives manufacture, and a robust economy.
>
so you need to increase minimum wage as in adjust it for inflation -so
that more downtrodden people can breathe easy.
> The deprived view you see in much of the world is self
> perpetuating. Our US constitution by its civil rights provisions,
> allows
> free enterprise, and that includes for labor, it can unionize etc...
> this drives prosperity for the working class, that drives sales and
> that drives manufacture...and prosperity.
>
so how do you plan to finance your notion of workers' paradise?
>
>
> > > You do not have such a contract in India ... for lack of such your
> > > nation has been a nation of the destitute for centuries.. of taking
> > > advantage, or a race to the bottom... and we the people do not wish
>
> > your understanding seems incorrect. The nation named India didn't
> > exist prior to 1947 -just as Iraq didn't. It was built out of the
> > wreckage of a crumbling british empire by cobbling up several princely
> > states (and british residencies). Till about 3-4 centuries back -India
> > was a term used to denote a land of unparalleled riches (esp gold).
>
> thanks for the background.
>
> > That explains why columbus set sail in search of India and was really
> > excited to see similar colored people in the americas. When the
> > british took over, they went about systematically destroying the local
> > economy and the region witnessed several famines as soon as they took
> > control (in different places).
>
> You have pointed your finger at what Geronemo called the white mans
> disease...and a
> disease it is too.
>
you should see the film "blood diamonds"
> Not endemic to all white men, not our working classes as a rule, but
> at
> the top... it has decimated many cultures, and our own. and I see
> India as well... accounting
> quite justifiably for the negative views some indians have of the
> english and the blossoming
> herds of white elephants roaming the malls of the america's.
>
ok
> pleeze notice though that you are adopting some of our corporations
> poisonous notions relative
> to what i am calling a race to the bottom... maybe that will be the
> white mans second dose of
> poison into india. If india decides to fuel its own consumer culture
> with sufficent pay and opportunity,
> it will once again be prosperous... in fact that may be both the
> definition and root cause of prosperity.
>
over here, politicians have been promising prosperity for ages -but
haven't gotten any closer to delivering it maybe because it is not all
that feasible.
> think about it... it is how the USA gained its domnance (but only
> after our own ruthless corporate monopolies
> of the 1800's were legislated against...in that time frame we had
> small children working for insufficient food in
> our own US factories.
>
> We need to to correct that sort of thing yet again in the US...our US
> corporate cabal with govt has once again
> become corrupt..... India is not wise to follow in our corrupted foot
> steps...
>
> Having said that it seems each
> of the other versions of mankind has its own error... fatal
> superstitions and etc.
>
> From what Ive seen of the now blossoming indian intelect it should be
> able to fathom its way out of that pit... its
> joint ventures however with US corporations, who are driving this race
> to the bottom will lock india out of any such
> advance... imo.
>
We have regulations -some of which discourage foreign investors from
setting up shop.
>
>
> > Every culture/civilization goes through its ups and downs. What you
> > have seen is probably the dark side of Indus valley civilization
>
> no doubt, as an american ive been preoccupied here... and dont know
> much first
> hand of other nations..
>
>
>
>
>
> =
>
> > A corporation is just a name for a profit-making business.
>
> No.. you have missed badly and to the core here. very badly. as most
> americans do also.
> it will pay you to find 'the corporation' on CD ..a film that
> describes the mess in unbiased detail..
>
> a corporation at its core is a legal entity that cannot be held
> effectively accountable for the crimes
I think it can be -as per current US laws. That is why they have
delaware incorporated companies in california or LLCs or nevada
corporations. That is also the reason why the US has lots of body
shops bringing in captive labour from India. The body shop is just a 1
room office wherein proprietor/sales person gets an order from a US
based MNC to supply him with labour from India,and fills in the
requirement accordingly. Since the captive labour is owned/employed by
the body shop, the US based MNC can wash off its hands in the event
that there is a case of harassment. If there were no legislation to
hold them accountable, none of these body shops would have been in
existence coz it is a lot cheaper to hire a person directly than via a
middle man. Same holds true for the network of handlers who help
illegals cross over to the US from mexico so that they can be routed
to corporations for employment. You won't be seeing any evidence that
the corp that wanted these people to work in the US actually helped
them gate crash into the US. Its only the intermediaries who will show
up in the evidence.
> of its management, nor the management held effectively
> accountable...all driven by non human interests.
> cash... the bottom line. it has become in not just a few cases the
> darkest of evils.
>
well -I never implied you should not legislate the functioning of
these corporations. The problem comes when you want to legislate the
functioning of other countries. In order to take away the right to
work of Indians who take up the jobs shipped by firing americans or to
tear down the offices set up in India or for that matter to question
why we have thuggee or sati -you will need to impair the soverign
status of this country.
> it might pay you..and india generally to understand this new breed of
> toxin... Id suggest India does
> not swallow its second dose (the first so generiously provided by
> England as you mention).
>
yeah -nobody doubts what gerenemo said.
> >The
> > merchants of yesteryears have been replaced by corporations -wherein
> > several owners jostle for strategic control, and the public can also
> > take ownership (of profits at least) by investing into it.
>
> thats the theory...in practice if you are studied on the *long term
> scene,* most
> investors are screwed... stay tuned as its all about to go out the
> bottom in the US, and
> stay there for a few decades. Corruption ruins all it touches.
>
most of what I have read shows that the stock market has delivered
better returns adjusted for inflation than anything else. But that
hasn't turned out to be the case with any of my investments.
> that film, 'the corporation'..and a previous one of similar title get
> into those nauseating
> details... india is being set up for another round of hose jobs from
> that quarter.... encouraged
> by a period of relative prosperity for a minority... long term its a
> trap. I urge you to
> look into those issues.
>
> >No investor
> > will put money into a venture unless it yields a return on investment.
>
> You are theoretically correct..and factually about as wrong as it
> gets...
> investors are often not bright at all, and the real facts and net
> value of corporations
> spun completely...right to the pits.
>
could be and is true in my case.
> You need to learn something about investments... you might look at
> my posts to
> Misc.invest.stocks and others in those threads. Yourself and
> most americans have
> little clue on the depth of the current frauds (supported by govt no
> less)
>
since I couldn't figure out much as in my luck didn't favour me -I
decided to put most of my money in warren buffets stocks. He does
investing for dummies.
If american white collar workers want something like $20 per hour i.e.
twice the mnimum wage, corporations as in greedy executives will be
inclined to not fire them or even to bring in H1Bs as replacements
(whose minimum wage is about $37000 per annum + medical + SS). Problem
comes when the workforce thinks it is entitled to a 6 figure salary
and I am not sure how that can be justified as a case of basic
necessity. For that matter, I don't think taxpayers who finance the
bailouts would want to finance their employment when the national
average income is itself < $50000 per annum.
regards
-kamal
phil scott
> On Dec 28, 11:51 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
> > We here in the USA dont see it as an entitlement..but as selling for
> > as much as the buyer is willing
> > to pay... Yourself now, being very bright, will respond
> > victoriously...'well same with labor, why should
> > any employer pay more than hes to for labor'
>
> Its not my idea. Ref:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
>
> > and yet, once again, in this long series,... you would be right.. not
> > partially right, not slighlty right but
> > entierly right. that is when you frame the case as an entitlement.
>
> > **
> > If you frame the case as what is viable for a nation, a **prosperous
> > nation, with even its poorest living better than most people
> > in some other nations... *then... you see the real issue....
>
> > *** subsistence pay, produces a subistence culture and nation ***
>
> > No one wins that way. Adequate pay, allows people to buy, that
> > drives manufacture, and a robust economy.
>
> so you need to increase minimum wage as in adjust it for inflation -so
> that more downtrodden people can breathe easy.
well yes...and a dozen other measures such as a wide range of just and
carefully considered tarrifs...so that our labor
does not have to compete against 2 dollar a day labor in china etc...
tarrifs such as *those nations apply even today.
equity needs to be insured,
However our govt is run by special interests, large corporations who
care (by law) *only for their bottom line profit, per quarter, and to
hell with the long term consequences... there are also overriding
international banking interests with their own agenda.
briefly.. I would say that the (inhuman) system, has taken over
humanity... driven by humans who care only about their own personal
short term ability to get rich.. the system needs to change...
change however only occurs after a complete and total collapse... with
nothting to insure that what follows is decent either... mostly its
not decent.
Our US constitution brought this nation from the pits to the worlds
most viable.. it was a decently, fairly and well founded document.
followed by hords of idiots, sociopaths, vested interests and rip off
artists with brains weaseling ways to change it.
fortunately however the document is in existence as a road map.
is it a cure all? not hardly. but did tie the hands of special
interests by its limitations and division of govt powers, and
cumbersome requirements to enact new laws.. and its attached bill of
rights, granting vital powers to the people. all that is landmark
progress, much of it still stands.
>
> > The deprived view you see in much of the world is self
> > perpetuating. Our US constitution by its civil rights provisions,
> > allows
> > free enterprise, and that includes for labor, it can unionize etc...
> > this drives prosperity for the working class, that drives sales and
> > that drives manufacture...and prosperity.
>
> so how do you plan to finance your notion of workers' paradise?
thats slightly derogatory spin, uncharacteristic of you... but I will
respond because
your history with me has been direct and I respect that.
the US was never a 'workers paradise;... it has always been possible
to work your ass off
in this country and do poorly... if you want to hang a name tag on
our workers situation you
could call it 'opportunity'... and thats how most frame what remains
available in the USA,
opportunity not seen in many other nations.
>
>
>
> > > > You do not have such a contract in India ... for lack of such your
> > > > nation has been a nation of the destitute for centuries.. of taking
> > > > advantage, or a race to the bottom... and we the people do not wish
>
> > > your understanding seems incorrect. The nation named India didn't
> > > exist prior to 1947 -just as Iraq didn't. It was built out of the
> > > wreckage of a crumbling british empire by cobbling up several princely
> > > states (and british residencies). Till about 3-4 centuries back -India
> > > was a term used to denote a land of unparalleled riches (esp gold).
>
> > thanks for the background.
>
> > > That explains why columbus set sail in search of India and was really
> > > excited to see similar colored people in the americas. When the
> > > british took over, they went about systematically destroying the local
> > > economy and the region witnessed several famines as soon as they took
> > > control (in different places).
>
> > You have pointed your finger at what Geronemo called the white mans
> > disease...and a
> > disease it is too.
>
> you should see the film "blood diamonds"
I have, a fine film... very interesting, note however that the labor
was severely exploited.. I can see you
dont consider that was fair... or do you? I dont know. but it was
exploitation as happens to only a slightly lesser
degree in india and china today among the lowest classes.
>
> > Not endemic to all white men, not our working classes as a rule, but
> > at
> > the top... it has decimated many cultures, and our own. and I see
> > India as well... accounting
> > quite justifiably for the negative views some indians have of the
> > english and the blossoming
> > herds of white elephants roaming the malls of the america's.
>
> ok
>
> > pleeze notice though that you are adopting some of our corporations
> > poisonous notions relative
> > to what i am calling a race to the bottom... maybe that will be the
> > white mans second dose of
> > poison into india. If india decides to fuel its own consumer culture
> > with sufficent pay and opportunity,
> > it will once again be prosperous... in fact that may be both the
> > definition and root cause of prosperity.
>
> over here, politicians have been promising prosperity for ages -but
> haven't gotten any closer to delivering it maybe because it is not all
> that feasible.
these are complex issues, solved at the founding of a nation, as with
the USA, but not
solveable with a nation matured on some other founding basis...
something like you can bring up a child
to be strong and healthy, but not after it has grown to a man, and ill
from a bad diet, life style and habits.
the older he gets the chance that anything will change.... which
leaves you once again correct in your
observations of how it its...and how it will remain that way, and
why....and further how it ends that way
in other nations as well... those with the money controll those
without... it
You only miss on one point... this is not the way a nation becomes
rich, and prosperous...but it is the way of nations unfortunately,
just as the way of man is to get old, corrupted cellular structures,
telemorase shorter and shorter, aberant regeneration, diseased, weak,
then deader than hell.... (all we can leave is whatever viable
insight we have gained)... a nation can leave its history.. a
history of what worked, or what did not work... and we can learn from
that.
so far though the individual human is short sighted, biased his own
short term interests, often of necessity..and these cut the balls off
of longer term interests for national or larger human race
interests... with some exeptions. (technical advance etc).
Could I be wrong here? Oh yes. arguing against my view, I could
say and in fact assert that without struggle, hard struggle and life
and death challenges there is no driver for change, technical
development or progress across many areas of life.
I noticed that in myself extensively for a few decades now... I lost
my skills with tools the the trades, along with those parts of my
brain (now known by mainline science) when I ceased being a design
build contractor (industrial equipment) and began consulting ..and
spending a lot of time in corporations sitting a cube.. I lost all
those skills, I could barely work a screw driver. and my engineering
capabilty suffered badly as well (again news at the time, but now
discovered to be true by mainline science..you cant let one part of
the brain attropy without it affecting the entire brain)
Forced by the collapse of the engineering business..I went back to the
trades.. it took 5 years to regenerate most of my skills with the
tools and trouble shooting etc... then my engineering skills began to
return, to much much higher levels than they had been earlier by the
way ...objectively tested... for instance to do controls work
(wiring) in the past I had to laboriously draw a diagram first, then
wire it rotely terminal to terminal.
today I do much of my work with minimal or no diagrams...
accordingly I do appreciate what dire straights can do for a person,
group, or nation.... and why I now make it a point to stay in the
trades, working with my own hands, not hiring others...as I do my
engineering business too. No matter how much engineering I get, I
will take part of the project and bulit it myself with my own hands
and tools.
a 'workers paradise' to use your perjoritive, if it is to be viable
involves going agaist human nature of ease seeking...and involves the
stress it takes to engage the entire brain.
as some say... the skin needs to be in the game.
Our US congress is largely with no skin in the game... accounting for
the insanity, and bad decisions we see there... supported by a
citizenry that by and large sits in cubicles.. now unable to reason
well.
So we are left with mother natures solution... self destruction....
then later a reboot, and a sometimes a slight advance... allowing the
iterations that retrograde to die off early... there is no shortage of
retrograde phenomena in the world... it is these that provide a foil
for those advancing. both apparently are necessary.
>
> > think about it... it is how the USA gained its domnance (but only
> > after our own ruthless corporate monopolies
> > of the 1800's were legislated against...in that time frame we had
> > small children working for insufficient food in
> > our own US factories.
>
> > We need to to correct that sort of thing yet again in the US...our US
> > corporate cabal with govt has once again
> > become corrupt..... India is not wise to follow in our corrupted foot
> > steps...
>
> > Having said that it seems each
> > of the other versions of mankind has its own error... fatal
> > superstitions and etc.
>
> > From what Ive seen of the now blossoming indian intelect it should be
> > able to fathom its way out of that pit... its
> > joint ventures however with US corporations, who are driving this race
> > to the bottom will lock india out of any such
> > advance... imo.
>
> We have regulations -some of which discourage foreign investors from
> setting up shop.
Hopefully India will be worlds next advanced and humane nation... its
a tall order.. special interests
over time tend to defeat such progress however. I wish yourself
and India well however in whatever
steps forward you can achieve.
I see steps forward as about all that counts.
>
>
>
> > > Every culture/civilization goes through its ups and downs. What you
> > > have seen is probably the dark side of Indus valley civilization
>
> > no doubt, as an american ive been preoccupied here... and dont know
> > much first
> > hand of other nations..
>
> > =
>
> > > A corporation is just a name for a profit-making business.
>
> > No.. you have missed badly and to the core here. very badly. as most
> > americans do also.
> > it will pay you to find 'the corporation' on CD ..a film that
> > describes the mess in unbiased detail..
>
> > a corporation at its core is a legal entity that cannot be held
> > effectively accountable for the crimes
> I think it can be -as per current US laws.
You are naive here, no doubt fueled by the corporations you see fined
millions of dollars by
government or sued... you think thats holding them accountable. It
appears to be holding them
accuntable and it IS holding them accountable but to an *insignificant
degree..for many reasons.
the corporation is a sheet of paper..it cant feel pain, it can go
bankrupt and feel no pain... its executives
are generally not sue'd, or cant be because because the corporate
layers insulate them from legal culpability and the
'corporat person' is set up in order to host those risks etc... so
there is no way to disuade a corporation from
ruthlessness or ruthless criminal behavior.
Your false premis here, as anyones, my own included...then fuel the
balance of ones bogus notion... in this
case yours that corporations are held under control in the US
according to current law (as applied)..and thus can
be held to account in India.
You have a mix of valid and invalid considerations here.
If India wanted to control foreign corporations or its own corporate
interests it would first have to eliminate corruption in govt (not
possible) then follow though by physically decapitating the CEO's of
corrupt corporations..punish the individuals.. but then few people
would take the risks large, protected, corporations can afford to
take, and are sheltered from by corporate law and charters in the US.
You need to study this..and again I recommend 'the corporation'
movie... there are many films on this range of issues... you might
enjoy
'V for Vendetta' for instance, where Evi learns courage and what it
takes.. a film you might have to see several times to appreciate..it
is directly on this range of issues...and no words in the film are
wasted, as it appears a first..not a single word.
We as humans are dumber than a load of sheet rock...that would be
yourself for sure... in spades. and myself. Fortunately we are able
to observe accurately, a modest saving grace. I suggest you look
into these issues and films Ive suggested.
> That is why they have
> delaware incorporated companies in california or LLCs or nevada
> corporations. That is also the reason why the US has lots of body
> shops bringing in captive labour from India. The body shop is just a 1
> room office wherein proprietor/sales person gets an order from a US
> based MNC to supply him with labour from India,and fills in the
> requirement accordingly. Since the captive labour is owned/employed by
> the body shop, the US based MNC can wash off its hands in the event
> that there is a case of harassment.
you are 100% correct here... I did about a third of my consulting
through these shops,
contract engineering shops... informallycalled meat markets,
currently evolvied to pure scum..run
by used car salesmen caliber idiots...
thats one reason I got out of the business..but yes those in fact
*dominate in the US, used by corrupt corporations
for a wide range of reasons...and these corporatins run by jerks who
are decimating their own markets and brain
trust of engineers etc...then they go broke.
impressive.
I suggest you folks in india do not emulate them.
>If there were no legislation to
> hold them accountable, none of these body shops would have been in
> existence coz it is a lot cheaper to hire a person directly than via a
> middle man.
That is a 100% false assumption on your part...body shop retained
engineers create
as much disaster as any others.. but the individual engineers, are
*employees.. not able to
be held accountable for a wide range of reasons, and the body shop is
not a signed professional
engineering agency, just an *employment* service... creating a network
of loop holes.
I urge yourself and India by extension not to step into the pit US
corporations and operating basis is
digging for you.
>Same holds true.
***zzzzzzzzzzzzzt hold it, you have diverged off onto a chain of
false assumptions and conclusions here.
we should back this up until you get those sorted... and look, dont be
insulted... most people have way more
bogus notions than you or I, or others on this NG have. no need to
defend. Just examine these areas Ive mentioned.
> for the network of handlers who help
> illegals cross over to the US from mexico so that they can be routed
> to corporations for employment.
Yes that is the case, but its all corrupt...just because that is whats
going on does not mean its viable
long term and should be emulated by India etc. despite its short term
benefits (those the bait in the mouse trap,
meeecies just LOVE it.... mmmm good... ) just fatal.
>You won't be seeing any evidence that
> the corp that wanted these people to work in the US actually helped
> them gate crash into the US. Its only the intermediaries who will show
> up in the evidence.
100% correct.. some US attorneys give seminars to US corporations on
how to arrange that.
>
> > of its management, nor the management held effectively
> > accountable...all driven by non human interests.
> > cash... the bottom line. it has become in not just a few cases the
> > darkest of evils.
>
> well -I never implied you should not legislate the functioning of
> these corporations. The problem comes when you want to legislate the
> functioning of other countries.
you are 100% correct once again in your second sentence here.. we in
the US have
no right or duty to define legislation in other countries. that does
not mean
we should allow ourselves no defense... we do have options...tarrifs
for instance as
employed by china and japan and others today.
and yes indeedie we need to legislate the functioning of our US
corporations for sure...
we do not however, these pay off our legislators... we live in a
nation in the process of going
terminally corrupt.... not withstanding our world class stellar
records in decades past and honorable
behaviors in world wars 1 and II...
that was then...................... this is now.
such is the life cycle trajectory of natons.
> In order to take away the right to
> work of Indians who take up the jobs shipped by firing americans or to
> tear down the offices set up in India or for that matter to question
> why we have thuggee or sati -you will need to impair the soverign
> status of this country.
while correct you are also grossly confused here.. we should not and
cannot take
away indian jobs.. we should let india be... and we should legislate
against our own corrupt
practices, those things which create unfair trade balances..
for intance we could legislate that no corporation selling in the US
can hire starvation level labor anywhere
in the world...and still sell in the US... lacking that the US is
involved in slavery by proxy. we could do that.
then the wages in india would rise to the extent that indian made
goods and services were viable in the US,
indian programming and engineering for instance (which is fast
becoming quite capable)...that would work.
but it would cut the balls off of the slaver mentality seen in US
corporations and executed as you have
accurately described. it is these interests in control of our US
congress and legislature.. so it wont change until
blood runs in the streets of the USA unfortunately... thats how it is
historically for eons.
>
> > it might pay you..and india generally to understand this new breed of
> > toxin... Id suggest India does
> > not swallow its second dose (the first so generiously provided by
> > England as you mention).
>
> yeah -nobody doubts what gerenemo said.
Here again you both correct, and inccorrect... US corporation would
doubt it
100%, just as General George Custer did...and the balance of US
citizens and now it appears Indian
citizens entirely clueless on the larger issue...not even realizing
its a disease, but as you have been
recommending, emulatating it...or at least justifying such
behavior...why? because thats the way it IS.
and ... you can prove it........... and once again you would be
correct.
the approach just decimates its host is all.
and look...just to be very clear here... it is few who are unbiased
enough to see these issues clearly,
yourself, and others on the NG, and myself as well, but in different
aspects... we all have our blind spots
and ranges of drooling idiocy.
dont feel like the lone ranger... your politeness and tendency to
objectiveness and base line intelligence is
appreciated however.
>
> > >The
> > > merchants of yesteryears have been replaced by corporations -wherein
> > > several owners jostle for strategic control, and the public can also
> > > take ownership (of profits at least) by investing into it.
>
> > thats the theory...in practice if you are studied on the *long term
> > scene,* most
> > investors are screwed... stay tuned as its all about to go out the
> > bottom in the US, and
> > stay there for a few decades. Corruption ruins all it touches.
>
> most of what I have read shows that the stock market has delivered
> better returns adjusted for inflation than anything else.
once again Kamal, you are way more than 100% correct... except for the
last 20 years... its been
a net looser inflation adjusted... and you miss one crucial point.. it
will take some research... the numbers are
grossly spun ...for instance one insider making 40 billion, averaged
with 40 others losing a dollar each, does not mean
the effective and correct average was 1 billion dollar each... thats
spun you see?
These markets routinely go entirely bust decimating all invested...as
in 1929 (it did not recover until 1954 on a dollar per dollar level,
inflaton adjusted in never recovered)...there have been 5 previous
collapses, currency and market collapses that have decimated all
concerned...
that should temper your view...im sure it will as you age and keep up
your inquiry.
> But that
> hasn't turned out to be the case with any of my investments.
:) now you are getting schmarter. join the crowd, and thanks for
your frank remark on the issue.
>
> > that film, 'the corporation'..and a previous one of similar title get
> > into those nauseating
> > details... india is being set up for another round of hose jobs from
> > that quarter.... encouraged
> > by a period of relative prosperity for a minority... long term its a
> > trap. I urge you to
> > look into those issues.
>
> > >No investor
> > > will put money into a venture unless it yields a return on investment.
>
> > You are theoretically correct..and factually about as wrong as it
> > gets...
> > investors are often not bright at all, and the real facts and net
> > value of corporations
> > spun completely...right to the pits.
> could be and is true in my case.
we learn as we age and keep paying attention...by the time you learn
this set of curve balls however
there will be another, and another... the solution is learn the
algorithms that drive these things then
you can see them coming... thats wny I stayed out of the housing
market and will stay out for the
next 20 years... there is more than one driving algorithm that insures
net losses (unless leveraged, and
these days thats a risk I dont want... it can be viable though for
those taking the *risk)
the facts of any day... or situation...are inferior to the underlying
algorithms... the facts are real, lke
real fleas on a camels back..but are irrelevant to the camel and its
trek across the arabian sands.
virtually all people get suck in the facts...because the facts are
obvious...and the algorithm is both invisible and
requires perspectives not easilty accessible to them in order to
fathom... the driving algoirith, the driving factors
thus remain invisible to at least 99.9% of humanity, including our
congress etc ... with one or two exeptions from
time to time.
and....... while myelf understanding *some of these, Im so smart....
there are vast ranges of others i dont even realize
exist... and thats what you see on the news group.... some blind each
other with loud abuse and spin etc.. and blind thems
as a result too.. refusing to see a vital part of the driving
algorithm or facet of the facts.
>
> > You need to learn something about investments... you might look at
> > my posts to
> > Misc.invest.stocks and others in those threads. Yourself and
> > most americans have
> > little clue on the depth of the current frauds (supported by govt no
> > less)
>
> since I couldn't figure out much as in my luck didn't favour me -I
> decided to put most of my money in warren buffets stocks. He does
> investing for dummies.
Yes..not bad, but he lost 40% for his fund last trip.. what you miss
is that he MUST
stay invested..no matter what... you cant eat dollar bills...they dont
grow or stay up with
inflation unless put to work. today its an inflated market... a net
looser, and he will
willingly take that loss...whatever it is...because he has no other
option at all... zip
nada...no other option. You are not ill advised to say with him.
Myself Ive chosen to invest in myself.. pnysical and mentally, with
tools, skills and insightability (accomplished by not defending my
own inevitable ongoing error)
>
> > > If you want them to invest money so as to bestow the workforce with a
> > > good std of living -regardless of how much ROI they get from it, that
> > > isn't going to happen -regardless of whom you elect as the next
> > > president.
>
> > yes thats true, but without regulations to protect those who produce,
> > affording them a living sufficient to
> > buy and consume.........** there is no manufacture... there is no
> > prosperity**
>
> > a key point you are missing here, and a point US corporations and govt
> > is missing. You are not alone in
> > your view. but that view is what is driving this race to the
> > bottom.... stay tuned for the completely nasty fallout,
>
> > we dont have long to wait.
I wont argue that ..its neither correct nor incorrect...you are just
missing a few points...do you know what us US citizens have to
pay our retired civil servants such as cops and firement in most big
cities? retired at age 51 no less? $137.000 a year on average plus
50k in health and other benefits..some police due to spiking
strategies in the last year getting over 200k a year... some ticket
takers on our transit lines 110k a year... all bogus...all not
affordable...
yes thnngs are grossly out of balance...such cultures collapse. and
do in it on schedule. for those reasons and drivers
see Dr Ravi Batra's book on the subject 'the comming depresson (or
collapse) 1990' in analysis of Kondratiev the russian economist who
documents the demographic and human nature drivers....basically in 5
generations we go fat, lazy and corrupt..then self destruct.
it takes 250 years or so... a pattern thousands of years
old...exceptions are the non literate cultures, mongols etc.
the USE by those manifestations in its last stage.... the land mass
will not dissapear though, we will still be here...but no longer as a
world power.. and viable again only after 50 years or so. (now for
Piff and Art... this last part about loss of empire is also part of
the CIA's 5, 10, 15 year forcast for the coutntry...accounting for
why we risk all going for the oil...we need the control to stretch our
term a bie.)
Ol philsie here is just parotting our own best patriots in this
regard...and going back to the founders who predicted such corruption
and the resulting fall... some were suprised we made it it the first
23 years.
its been our US constitution and bill of rights that has founded this
still today greatest nation on earth... it is just the trajectory that
sucks... and its us driving it..not anyone else.
Phil Scott
Me, ...again!
On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, morris croy wrote:
> Don't forget that life and opportunities were crappy for non-white
> people who were African American, eastern European jewish, Chinese,
> Korean, etc ... for more than half of the 20th century and earlier.
> (ie. Jim Crow laws, etc ...).
>
There was always a class structure to society.
Favored, priviledged, connected at the top.
And, those that were less favored, priviledged, and connected.
And, even farther down, those that were not favored at all, unpriviledged,
and unconnected.
However, this scale did vary, considerably, from country to country.
Me, ...again!
On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, kamal wrote:
> On Dec 28, 11:51 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
>> We here in the USA dont see it as an entitlement..but as selling for
>> as much as the buyer is willing
>> to pay... Yourself now, being very bright, will respond
>> victoriously...'well same with labor, why should
>> any employer pay more than hes to for labor'
>>
>
> Its not my idea. Ref:-
No but you bought into it, 100%.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
Ah, yes, editpedia...
Here's mine (below) and I've shown you this before, too, at least fifty
times. Lets see if you can find the last sentence and read what it says.
==================
The following quote is from Business Week, December 6, 2004
and from the article "Shaking up Trade Theory" by Aaron Bernstein
on pages 116 to 120. (The subtitle of the article is: "For decades
economists have insisted that the U.S. wins from globalization. Now they
are not so sure")
They quoted Paul Samuelson (MIT) as saying "Comparative advantage
cannot be counted on to create...net gains greater than the net
losses from trade"
==================
>> and yet, once again, in this long series,... you would be right.. not
>> partially right, not slighlty right but
>> entierly right. that is when you frame the case as an entitlement.
>>
>> **
>> If you frame the case as what is viable for a nation, a **prosperous
>> nation, with even its poorest living better than most people
>> in some other nations... *then... you see the real issue....
>>
>> *** subsistence pay, produces a subistence culture and nation ***
>>
>> No one wins that way. Adequate pay, allows people to buy, that
>> drives manufacture, and a robust economy.
>>
> so you need to increase minimum wage as in adjust it for inflation -so
> that more downtrodden people can breathe easy.
This would be helpful.
>> The deprived view you see in much of the world is self
>> perpetuating. Our US constitution by its civil rights provisions,
>> allows
>> free enterprise, and that includes for labor, it can unionize etc...
>> this drives prosperity for the working class, that drives sales and
>> that drives manufacture...and prosperity.
>>
> so how do you plan to finance your notion of workers' paradise?
Its really pretty simple. Since both the governments of China and India
make special requirements on FDI and foreign companies (such as the
absolute requirement to partner with a local company), the US govt could
very easily place similar requirements on foreign as well as domestic
corporations to require such things as "domestic content" and quotas for
"domestic labor" and that would keep jobs in the USA.
>>>> You do not have such a contract in India ... for lack of such your
>>>> nation has been a nation of the destitute for centuries.. of taking
>>>> advantage, or a race to the bottom... and we the people do not wish
>>
>>> your understanding seems incorrect. The nation named India didn't
>>> exist prior to 1947 -just as Iraq didn't. It was built out of the
>>> wreckage of a crumbling british empire by cobbling up several princely
>>> states (and british residencies). Till about 3-4 centuries back -India
>>> was a term used to denote a land of unparalleled riches (esp gold).
>>
>> thanks for the background.
>>
>>> That explains why columbus set sail in search of India and was really
>>> excited to see similar colored people in the americas. When the
>>> british took over, they went about systematically destroying the local
>>> economy and the region witnessed several famines as soon as they took
>>> control (in different places).
>>
>> You have pointed your finger at what Geronemo called the white mans
>> disease...and a
>> disease it is too.
>>
> you should see the film "blood diamonds"
I, myself, like the following story....
==================
Quote:
"Moreover, ancient Indian custom and religious violence has resurfaced of
late, even in the heart of modern India's capital. Hundreds of 'accidental
deaths' of young Indian brides from burns by 'kitchen fires' are now
reported annually in the Delhi region alone. In fact, these dowry deaths
are known to be maliciously inflicted murders, often planned or
perpetuated by the dissatisfied husband and his parents, who feel that the
former bride's family failed to pay the prearranged 'price' promised
during dowry negotiations. Recently in Rajasthan, open revival and
glorification of _Sati_ widow-burning ceremonies has led to a number of
arrests and vigorous official action in charging the cultprits with
'murder.' Thus, even though Sati-immolations were outlawed by the British
in 1829, and the offer or acceptance of a dowry of any size is against
modern current Indian law, ancient practice continues. The past clings to
Indian's silken saried civilization and its flames continue to consume the
sacrificial bodies of young brides and widows, as they did for thousands
of years, while the sacred mantras of Brahmans filled the air as Agni's
flames 'liberated' the immortal souls from fast-burning fles."
from pages 434-435 of "A New History of India" (3rd edition) by Stanley
Wolpert (c 1989)
=================
>> Not endemic to all white men, not our working classes as a rule, but
>> at
>> the top... it has decimated many cultures, and our own. and I see
>> India as well... accounting
>> quite justifiably for the negative views some indians have of the
>> english and the blossoming
>> herds of white elephants roaming the malls of the america's.
>>
> ok
>
>> pleeze notice though that you are adopting some of our corporations
>> poisonous notions relative
>> to what i am calling a race to the bottom... maybe that will be the
>> white mans second dose of
>> poison into india. If india decides to fuel its own consumer culture
>> with sufficent pay and opportunity,
>> it will once again be prosperous... in fact that may be both the
>> definition and root cause of prosperity.
>>
>
> over here, politicians have been promising prosperity for ages -but
> haven't gotten any closer to delivering it maybe because it is not all
> that feasible.
Maybe Indians should import Chinese communist high party members to show
India "how to do it."
>> think about it... it is how the USA gained its domnance (but only
>> after our own ruthless corporate monopolies
>> of the 1800's were legislated against...in that time frame we had
>> small children working for insufficient food in
>> our own US factories.
>>
>> We need to to correct that sort of thing yet again in the US...our US
>> corporate cabal with govt has once again
>> become corrupt..... India is not wise to follow in our corrupted foot
>> steps...
>>
>> Having said that it seems each
>> of the other versions of mankind has its own error... fatal
>> superstitions and etc.
>>
>> From what Ive seen of the now blossoming indian intelect it should be
>> able to fathom its way out of that pit... its
>> joint ventures however with US corporations, who are driving this race
>> to the bottom will lock india out of any such
>> advance... imo.
>>
> We have regulations -some of which discourage foreign investors from
> setting up shop.
Oh, really? India is too affraid of real competition? Might show more
"productivity" than India?
>>
>>
>>> Every culture/civilization goes through its ups and downs. What you
>>> have seen is probably the dark side of Indus valley civilization
>>
>> no doubt, as an american ive been preoccupied here... and dont know
>> much first
>> hand of other nations..
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =
>>
>>> A corporation is just a name for a profit-making business.
>>
>> No.. you have missed badly and to the core here. very badly. as most
>> americans do also.
>> it will pay you to find 'the corporation' on CD ..a film that
>> describes the mess in unbiased detail..
>>
>> a corporation at its core is a legal entity that cannot be held
>> effectively accountable for the crimes
>
> I think it can be -as per current US laws.
All you need to do is read almost any basic book on criminology. All the
ones I have also have a chapter on white collar crime and it is very
serious. Enron, Andersen, Worldcom, Tyco were in the last wave about 8-9
years ago. Too bad AIG isn't in jail, now, today, but others should be
too.
That is why they have
> delaware incorporated companies in california or LLCs or nevada
> corporations.
The only reason for Delaware (etc) incorporations is state easy laws and
low fees.
That is also the reason why the US has lots of body
> shops bringing in captive labour
Nobody ever had a gun pointing at their head.
from India. The body shop is just a 1
> room office wherein proprietor/sales person gets an order from a US
> based MNC to supply him with labour from India,and fills in the
> requirement accordingly.
For Hispanics, they even have a local office in the country of origin that
makes fake documents, too.
Since the captive labour is owned/employed by
> the body shop,
No, they are not owned, just managed.
the US based MNC can wash off its hands in the event
> that there is a case of harassment.
Today the word is "outsourcing" but decades ago it was known as
"subcontracting". Its not a new idea.
If there were no legislation to
> hold them accountable,
Legislation is irrelevant if there is no enforcement department.
none of these body shops would have been in
> existence coz it is a lot cheaper to hire a person directly than via a
> middle man.
Well, this is a lie, too, because if you get the person cheap enough, then
the body shop gets a cut which makes the person hired plus the fee less
than a normal US born guy.
Same holds true for the network of handlers who help
> illegals cross over to the US from mexico so that they can be routed
> to corporations for employment.
This is not new information, either.
You won't be seeing any evidence that
> the corp that wanted these people to work in the US actually helped
> them gate crash into the US.
No, they just gate crash on their own.
Its only the intermediaries who will show
> up in the evidence.
>
>
>> of its management, nor the management held effectively
>> accountable...all driven by non human interests.
>> cash... the bottom line. it has become in not just a few cases the
>> darkest of evils.
>>
>
> well -I never implied you should not legislate the functioning of
> these corporations. The problem comes when you want to legislate the
> functioning of other countries.
Oh? That is the job of the WTO.
In order to take away the right to
> work of Indians who take up the jobs shipped by firing americans or to
> tear down the offices set up in India or for that matter to question
> why we have thuggee or sati
According to Indian history books, these are now illegal in India.
But, in fact, Sati is still taking place. The Brits cleaned up Thuggee.
-you will need to impair the soverign
> status of this country.
The WTO impairs the sovereign status of all member countries.
>> it might pay you..and india generally to understand this new breed of
>> toxin... Id suggest India does
>> not swallow its second dose (the first so generiously provided by
>> England as you mention).
>>
> yeah -nobody doubts what gerenemo said.
Oh, I can imagine someone questioning the rumors.
>>> The
>>> merchants of yesteryears have been replaced by corporations -wherein
>>> several owners jostle for strategic control, and the public can also
>>> take ownership (of profits at least) by investing into it.
>>
>> thats the theory...in practice if you are studied on the *long term
>> scene,* most
>> investors are screwed... stay tuned as its all about to go out the
>> bottom in the US, and
>> stay there for a few decades. Corruption ruins all it touches.
>>
> most of what I have read shows that the stock market has delivered
> better returns adjusted for inflation than anything else.
Wrong. It only delivers better returns if you buy low and sell high.
And, the low has to be pretty low and the high pretty high.
My wife and I watch "Antiques Roadshow" on TV, often they show some guy
buys a painting at a yard sale for $ 2 and it is worth $ 100,000 at
auction. Pretty good ROI if you ask me.
But that
> hasn't turned out to be the case with any of my investments.
Maybe you are in the wrong business. If you want to make money on stocks
(etc), learn how the criminals do it.
>> that film, 'the corporation'..and a previous one of similar title get
>> into those nauseating
>> details... india is being set up for another round of hose jobs from
>> that quarter.... encouraged
>> by a period of relative prosperity for a minority... long term its a
>> trap. I urge you to
>> look into those issues.
>>
>>> No investor
>>> will put money into a venture unless it yields a return on investment.
>>
>> You are theoretically correct..and factually about as wrong as it
>> gets...
>> investors are often not bright at all, and the real facts and net
>> value of corporations
>> spun completely...right to the pits.
>>
> could be and is true in my case.
You can also become a stock broker, call up dumb people and sell them bad
stock and tell them its good. You can watch the movies "Wall Street" and
"Boiler Room" and "Disclosure" to see how this works.
>> You need to learn something about investments... you might look at
>> my posts to
>> Misc.invest.stocks and others in those threads. Yourself and
>> most americans have
>> little clue on the depth of the current frauds (supported by govt no
>> less)
>>
> since I couldn't figure out much as in my luck didn't favour me -I
> decided to put most of my money in warren buffets stocks. He does
> investing for dummies.
I put my IRA money into high yield corporate bonds (the corporation
"printed" them) and did 8-10% per year back in 1980s for many years.
Well, why are corporate executives entitled to 7-8 figure salaries? AND
they actually get these salaries, not the dreams of underlings.
For that matter, I don't think taxpayers who finance the
> bailouts would want to finance their employment when the national
> average income is itself < $50000 per annum.
It's more like $40,000 and that is husband and wife both working.
///////////////////////
kamal
> > > The deprived view you see in much of the world is self
> > > perpetuating. Our US constitution by its civil rights provisions,
> > > allows
> > > free enterprise, and that includes for labor, it can unionize etc...
> > > this drives prosperity for the working class, that drives sales and
> > > that drives manufacture...and prosperity.
>
> > so how do you plan to finance your notion of workers' paradise?
>
> thats slightly derogatory spin, uncharacteristic of you... but I will
didn't mean to make a derogatory statement.
> respond because
> your history with me has been direct and I respect that.
>
> the US was never a 'workers paradise;... it has always been possible
> to work your ass off
> in this country and do poorly... if you want to hang a name tag on
if you look at the macro-economic situation in the US, it is a house
of cards waiting to collapse. The economy is highly leveraged by
credit from outside and owes more money to the world than it can ever
repay. Improving on this will require you to find ways to finance the
improvement as opposed to creating legislation. If I had to give a
tangential example, Bill Gross hedge fund manager at PIMCO made a
statement on the eve of US elections, when one dollar buys 1 vote -it
leads to growth and when 1 person yields 1 vote (a populist regime),
it leads to inflation. The US worker already earns more than his
equally competent counterparts overseas. If you want them to improve
on that -you need to find ways to finance it.
The above statements may not be coherent, but it is the best I could
do to explain "finance the workers' paradise".
> our workers situation you
> could call it 'opportunity'... and thats how most frame what remains
> available in the USA,
> opportunity not seen in many other nations.
>
ok. Before I left for USA -I used to hear the phrase "land of
oppurtunities". Sometime back, I got to hear from my Indian co-worker
who stayed back that he had lost his job and his american dream has
gone sour. Other folks told me wages have crashed to about 30-40% last
salary. So, if you are thinking of reverting back to a better
situation -it doesn't sound like a bad idea except that at the macro
level , that doesn't sound likely. US govt has spent lots of money on
Iraq (without getting required oil to market) the way they did in
Vietnam and like it did post-vietnam, you can only expect things to
change for the worse. War bills bring with them inflation because the
bills get buried under various expenses under the civilian
administration.
regards
-kamal
> ...
>
> read more »
Me, ...again!
On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, kamal wrote:
>>
>>>> The deprived view you see in much of the world is self
>>>> perpetuating. Our US constitution by its civil rights provisions,
>>>> allows
>>>> free enterprise, and that includes for labor, it can unionize etc...
>>>> this drives prosperity for the working class, that drives sales and
>>>> that drives manufacture...and prosperity.
>>
>>> so how do you plan to finance your notion of workers' paradise?
>>
>> thats slightly derogatory spin, uncharacteristic of you... but I will
>
> didn't mean to make a derogatory statement.
>
>> respond because
>> your history with me has been direct and I respect that.
>>
>> the US was never a 'workers paradise;... it has always been possible
>> to work your ass off
>> in this country and do poorly... if you want to hang a name tag on
>
> if you look at the macro-economic situation in the US,
This is, again, one of your biggest mistakes. You totally ignore the fact
that almost all the countries in the world us the same economics, the same
banking systems, and paper money. Why you can't learn this is one of your
major defects in your world view.
it is a house
> of cards waiting to collapse. The economy is highly leveraged by
> credit from outside and owes more money to the world than it can ever
> repay.
When are you going to learn some economic history and learn that just
about every country on the planet has debt, and some countries are in
worse shape but you don't complain about them.
Furthermore you make no distinction between govt debt, personal debt, and
corporate debt. And, almost all countries on the planet have all three.
Improving on this will require you to find ways to finance the
> improvement as opposed to creating legislation.
I am amazed that you really don't understand that the world economy has
its ups and downs and ups again and this is probably going to go on
forever, or until something happens to the human race.
If I had to give a
> tangential example, Bill Gross hedge fund manager at PIMCO made a
> statement on the eve of US elections, when one dollar buys 1 vote -it
> leads to growth and when 1 person yields 1 vote (a populist regime),
> it leads to inflation.
Ahhhhhah.....you are paying too much attention to hedge fund managers who
like to propagandize the idea they have a monopoly on understanding the
economy. Do you know how many hedge funds have closed in the last seven
years? A lot of them.
The US worker already earns more than his
> equally competent counterparts overseas.
And, according to local cost structure, also pays more than his equally
competant counterparts overseas.
If you want them to improve
> on that -you need to find ways to finance it.
It has already been happening.
> The above statements may not be coherent,
I agree 100%,,,, they are not coherent.
but it is the best I could
> do to explain "finance the workers' paradise".
"Workers' paradise" is a concept in Marxist economics, not capitalist
economics.
>
>> our workers situation you
>> could call it 'opportunity'... and thats how most frame what remains
>> available in the USA,
>> opportunity not seen in many other nations.
>>
> ok. Before I left for USA -I used to hear the phrase "land of
> oppurtunities". Sometime back, I got to hear from my Indian co-worker
> who stayed back that he had lost his job and his american dream has
> gone sour.
Ahhh...the truth comes out.
Other folks told me wages have crashed to about 30-40% last
> salary.
Standard of living already comeing down by virtue of executives playing
"hard ball" with employees.
So, if you are thinking of reverting back to a better
> situation -it doesn't sound like a bad idea except that at the macro
> level , that doesn't sound likely.
Economic evolution goes forward as smart guys figure out how to re-invent
all kinds of schemes and use technology and business consultants. Going
back would be difficult, but I see little reason why it could not be done
except rich people and CEOs will be very unhappy to give up half their
booty.
US govt has spent lots of money on
> Iraq (without getting required oil to market) the way they did in
> Vietnam and like it did post-vietnam, you can only expect things to
> change for the worse. War bills bring with them inflation because the
> bills get buried under various expenses under the civilian
> administration.
This is a bigger issue than I have time for now.
phil scott
> > > > The deprived view you see in much of the world is self
> > > > perpetuating. Our US constitution by its civil rights provisions,
> > > > allows
> > > > free enterprise, and that includes for labor, it can unionize etc...
> > > > this drives prosperity for the working class, that drives sales and
> > > > that drives manufacture...and prosperity.
>
> > > so how do you plan to finance your notion of workers' paradise?
>
> > thats slightly derogatory spin, uncharacteristic of you... but I will
>
> didn't mean to make a derogatory statement.
>
> > respond because
> > your history with me has been direct and I respect that.
>
> > the US was never a 'workers paradise;... it has always been possible
> > to work your ass off
> > in this country and do poorly... if you want to hang a name tag on
>
> if you look at the macro-economic situation in the US, it is a house
> of cards waiting to collapse.
Unfortunately you are correct.... the only hope we have imo is that
most other nations are in deep
trouble also, so that all boats will sink in unision.. and we will
still be part of whats left. our own CIA forcasted
this mess years ago, as ive mentioned...the rest of our govt has
chosen to ignore it..apparently we are bought and
sold by the big banks and the Fed,
> The economy is highly leveraged by
> credit from outside and owes more money to the world than it can ever
> repay. Improving on this will require you to find ways to finance the
> improvement as opposed to creating legislation.
we do not have a basis on which to do the improvement itself. let
along finance it...
Improvement will take a re-educated and then experienced work force...
we have let that atropy.. laying
off the experienced people...who are also now retiring. 80 million
beginning 2 years ago.. and lasting untill
2015 or so.. thats *half our works force of trained and skilled old
timers... we have not educated sufficient
replacements by a wide margin... Resurecton from such a mess takes a
generation or two... with starvation as
motivation.
and of course our 50 trillion ++ in debt..that will never be repaid in
todays dollars... it will probably be repaid in much devalued
dollars..in effect defaulted on.
>If I had to give a
> tangential example, Bill Gross hedge fund manager at PIMCO made a
> statement on the eve of US elections, when one dollar buys 1 vote -it
> leads to growth and when 1 person yields 1 vote (a populist regime),
> it leads to inflation. The US worker already earns more than his
> equally competent counterparts overseas. If you want them to improve
> on that -you need to find ways to finance it.
I dont disagree...it is just that I dont think what needs to happen
can be financed.. by a wide margin.
and if financed we no longer have the established skills base in
enough areas to ramp it back up quickly enough.
>
> The above statements may not be coherent, but it is the best I could
> do to explain "finance the workers' paradise".
you were coherent enough.. why should finance money keep flowing to
the USA when our govt is
cancerously over bloated..our civil servants retring at 150 to 200k a
more, 50 times that of other nations,
and the core competence of our industrial priduction worker base now
retiring, with damn few replacements... the rest of the
factories already shipped to mexico or china.
we wont get financed... we will have regrow a backbone, and that will
have to be in the next generation..not this one to any great extent,
except for some of us old timers who are still hussling...im 69 and
still slinging tools... will that go on until Im 90? thats
doubtful.
>
> > our workers situation you
> > could call it 'opportunity'... and thats how most frame what remains
> > available in the USA,
> > opportunity not seen in many other nations.
>
> ok. Before I left for USA -I used to hear the phrase "land of
> oppurtunities". Sometime back, I got to hear from my Indian co-worker
> who stayed back that he had lost his job and his american dream has
> gone sour. Other folks told me wages have crashed to about 30-40% last
> salary. So, if you are thinking of reverting back to a better
> situation -it doesn't sound like a bad idea except that at the macro
> level , that doesn't sound likely.
correct...its unlikely to say the least... demonstrated hundreds of
times in the 250 year life cycle of nations,
dying off as their own white (or brown elphants) mash them into the
dirt.. btw... if you didnt get along with whom
hired you when you were here, you have my full sympathy... the why has
become quite apparent.. you do in fact have
a way better than average functioning brain and certain insights, and
you were not able to keep quiet. The white
elephants cannot even stand the faintest hint that their mush brain
notions will get the eagle eye....especially the fat ones.
Interesting that the current green card wage is off 30 to 40%..thats
nasty at the cost of living we have in our cities... and accounts for
many indians and chinese moving back to their homelands... that may
change though as for a brief while at least, both india and china may
tank as the US market dies our for them... as Art has been mentioning.
However I dont think that will be the long term scene... india and
china had better take care though not to drive their own nations wages
into the pits...that will wipe out their own consumer market they will
now be dependent on for prosperity.
> US govt has spent lots of money on
> Iraq (without getting required oil to market) the way they did in
> Vietnam and like it did post-vietnam, you can only expect things to
> change for the worse. War bills bring with them inflation because the
> bills get buried under various expenses under the civilian
> administration.
all of this paragraph is a total understatement of course... we are a
nation run by drooling morons, with external complexities beyond our
control exacerbating the problem..radical muslims for instance,
supported behind the scenes by many reputable muslims and nations in
an effort to wipe out the infidel...as they have been doing
successfully for a thousand years...now the largest religion on the
face of the earth...and bent on becoming dominant in the US...and
destroy all the rock and rollers....
regardless how you look at that, right or wrong, its going to be nasty
for US especially compounded by our economic. govt bloat and political
correctmess insanity...
the point we are missing, and all great powers in the pass have missed
just before their peak and into their collapse phase..still in
power..is that the nation in power, holding bases, and land etc. with
armies is entirely and uncontrollably *targetable...and the nomadic
masses are not...or at least not viably targetable...its is costing us
a few million dollars to kill every snarky cab driver we dont like in
Bagdad...they are taking us using our own unexploded amuntion, and for
10 cents a round... from perfect camaflage.
there is no way in hell to best that...its been tried for eons... it
doesnt work.. what works is to be so productive and valuable to
other nations that you are not targeted... good neighborlyness.. not
protitiation of caving in to evil... that works.
However it seems there IS evil in the world. we saw it with German and
Japan attacking others to gain power and land...that ruins everyone
involved... when a nation is young and strong, as the US was until
recently, it can afford to be a good neighbor (until our corrupted CIA
began with its black ops to serve the interests of US corporations)...
once into its collapse mode it cannot afford to be a good neighbor...
so seeks to control the other nations with force... that fails every
single time.
it takes total morons not to see this... demonstrating the calibre of
people who got us into Iraq,,, saying at the time it would
take two weeks and 10 billion dollars... utterly ludicrous, and gone
ballistically ludicrous since... now we have seen the reaction to that
.. these wont be hanging up their AK 47's any time soon... as they
out breed us 4 to 1...
Phil scott
Me, ...again!
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, phil scott wrote:
> On Dec 29, 9:54 pm, kamal <kama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> The deprived view you see in much of the world is self
>>>>> perpetuating. Our US constitution by its civil rights provisions,
>>>>> allows
>>>>> free enterprise, and that includes for labor, it can unionize etc...
>>>>> this drives prosperity for the working class, that drives sales and
>>>>> that drives manufacture...and prosperity.
>>
>>>> so how do you plan to finance your notion of workers' paradise?
>>
>>> thats slightly derogatory spin, uncharacteristic of you... but I will
>>
>> didn't mean to make a derogatory statement.
>>
>>> respond because
>>> your history with me has been direct and I respect that.
>>
>>> the US was never a 'workers paradise;... it has always been possible
>>> to work your ass off
>>> in this country and do poorly... if you want to hang a name tag on
>>
>> if you look at the macro-economic situation in the US, it is a house
>> of cards waiting to collapse.
>
> Unfortunately you are correct.... the only hope we have imo is that
> most other nations are in deep
> trouble also, so that all boats will sink in unision..
All the economic history books report that after the "sink" there is a
re-flotation, too.
and we will
> still be part of whats left.
Nobody will ever replace paper money unless someday we all carry credit
cards or debit cards, and I'll bet that fractional reserve banking will be
with the human race as long as the human race is around.
our own CIA forcasted
> this mess years ago,
The CIA only came into existence relatively recently; history books have
been around at least 2,000 years.
as ive mentioned...the rest of our govt has
> chosen to ignore it..
Actually, almost all of the major economies in the world launched large
bailout programs. I would not say they "ignored" it.
apparently we are bought and
> sold by the big banks and the Fed,
To a large degree, yes. You only left out the "rich" and the
"corporations" in general.
>> The economy is highly leveraged by
>> credit from outside and owes more money to the world than it can ever
>> repay. Improving on this will require you to find ways to finance the
>> improvement as opposed to creating legislation.
>
> we do not have a basis on which to do the improvement itself. let
> along finance it...
> Improvement will take a re-educated and then experienced work force...
> we have let that atropy.. laying
> off the experienced people...who are also now retiring. 80 million
> beginning 2 years ago.. and lasting untill
> 2015 or so.. thats *half our works force of trained and skilled old
> timers... we have not educated sufficient
> replacements by a wide margin... Resurecton from such a mess takes a
> generation or two... with starvation as
> motivation.
To some degree, yes.
> and of course our 50 trillion ++ in debt..that will never be repaid in
> todays dollars... it will probably be repaid in much devalued
> dollars..in effect defaulted on.
You are still ignoring everyone else's debt, too.
>> If I had to give a
>> tangential example, Bill Gross hedge fund manager at PIMCO made a
>> statement on the eve of US elections, when one dollar buys 1 vote -it
>> leads to growth and when 1 person yields 1 vote (a populist regime),
>> it leads to inflation. The US worker already earns more than his
>> equally competent counterparts overseas. If you want them to improve
>> on that -you need to find ways to finance it.
>
> I dont disagree...it is just that I dont think what needs to happen
> can be financed.. by a wide margin.
> and if financed we no longer have the established skills base in
> enough areas to ramp it back up quickly enough.
It would all come back to the USA if the USD were not vastly stronger than
3rd world currency. I say: "blow up the WTO."
>>
>> The above statements may not be coherent, but it is the best I could
>> do to explain "finance the workers' paradise".
>
> you were coherent enough.. why should finance money keep flowing to
> the USA when our govt is
> cancerously over bloated..our civil servants retring at 150 to 200k a
> more, 50 times that of other nations,
Better ask about corporate executives: eg. Dick Grasso's retirement
package worth $180 million. Its a lot higher than 150-200 K a year.
> and the core competence of our industrial priduction worker base now
> retiring, with damn few replacements... the rest of the
> factories already shipped to mexico or china.
I don't like it either.
> we wont get financed... we will have regrow a backbone, and that will
> have to be in the next generation..not this one to any great extent,
> except for some of us old timers who are still hussling...im 69 and
> still slinging tools... will that go on until Im 90? thats
> doubtful.
I wish you luck.
///////////////////////////////
kamal
> times in the 250 year life cycle of nations,
> dying off as their own white (or brown elphants) mash them into the
> dirt.. btw... if you didnt get along with whom
> hired you when you were here, you have my full sympathy... the why has
I was hired by quite a few companies when I was in the US and had no
issues with finding jobs. There was a problem with legal status i.e.
getting a green card, but no problem with employers being interested
in hiring me. Having returned, I decided against re-entering to the US
after returning, because I do not want either employer or private
parties in the US to endanger my legal status.
> become quite apparent.. you do in fact have
> a way better than average functioning brain and certain insights, and
> you were not able to keep quiet. The white
> elephants cannot even stand the faintest hint that their mush brain
> notions will get the eagle eye....especially the fat ones.
>
its the same story in India -but am able to cope with it without much
of a problem.
> Interesting that the current green card wage is off 30 to 40%..thats
No -that is 60-70% off i.e. they make 0.3x (last job's salary)
> nasty at the cost of living we have in our cities... and accounts for
> many indians and chinese moving back to their homelands... that may
yep -it is not all that viable a destination for better oppurtunities,
and have interacted with lots of US returned people in the workplace
here.
> change though as for a brief while at least, both india and china may
> tank as the US market dies our for them... as Art has been mentioning.
>
US employer ~= US market. Many US companies make the bulk of their
sales outside the US and only their office is registered in the US.
> However I dont think that will be the long term scene... india and
> china had better take care though not to drive their own nations wages
> into the pits...that will wipe out their own consumer market they will
> now be dependent on for prosperity.
>
Our consumer market is on the upswing, bringing profits to lots of
MNCs. GE may end up getting a contract to build a nuclear reactor in
India providing jobs for quite a few americans. As regards china, I do
not know first hand -but it looks like the 2007 olympics were held in
beijing because MNCs lobbied to do so and get an oppurtunity to
showcase their products.
> > US govt has spent lots of money on
> > Iraq (without getting required oil to market) the way they did in
> > Vietnam and like it did post-vietnam, you can only expect things to
> > change for the worse. War bills bring with them inflation because the
> > bills get buried under various expenses under the civilian
> > administration.
>
> all of this paragraph is a total understatement of course... we are a
> nation run by drooling morons, with external complexities beyond our
> control exacerbating the problem..radical muslims for instance,
> supported behind the scenes by many reputable muslims and nations in
yes
> an effort to wipe out the infidel...as they have been doing
> successfully for a thousand years...now the largest religion on the
> face of the earth...and bent on becoming dominant in the US...and
> destroy all the rock and rollers....
>
The rise and fall of empires brings with it the rise and fall of
religions. The people who have been converted to islam may not be as
radical as the sterotype suggests. Islam did succeed in destroying
many indigenous cultures including the one in mesopotamia (iraq) but
did not really succeed in brainwashing everybody to the fullest
extent. Iraq was till recently a secular state and saddam reviled a s
a secular despot. Incidentally the CIA hired Saddam to counter the
radical ayotallahs of Iran.
Many of them don't have 4 wives and the religion sanctioned at most 4
wives so that a person could co-opt a widow resulting from war. The
mormons of utah had a similar practice during war time.
regards
-kamal
> ...
>
> read more »
phil scott
> > correct...its unlikely to say the least... demonstrated hundreds of
> > times in the 250 year life cycle of nations,
> > dying off as their own white (or brown elphants) mash them into the
> > dirt.. btw... if you didnt get along with whom
> > hired you when you were here, you have my full sympathy... the why has
>
> I was hired by quite a few companies when I was in the US and had no
> issues with finding jobs. There was a problem with legal status i.e.
> getting a green card, but no problem with employers being interested
> in hiring me. Having returned, I decided against re-entering to the US
> after returning, because I do not want either employer or private
> parties in the US to endanger my legal status.
>
> > become quite apparent.. you do in fact have
> > a way better than average functioning brain and certain insights, and
> > you were not able to keep quiet. The white
> > elephants cannot even stand the faintest hint that their mush brain
> > notions will get the eagle eye....especially the fat ones.
>
> its the same story in India -but am able to cope with it without much
> of a problem.
>
> > Interesting that the current green card wage is off 30 to 40%..thats
>
> No -that is 60-70% off i.e. they make 0.3x (last job's salary)
gasp.... thats hand writing on the wall, at the *high end of the
talent pool... a race to the bottom..
the more a corporation can drive down wages the more its competitors
are forced to drive down wages,
forcing a downard spiral... so that those now working for less, in
this case 70% less!! must spend virtually
all the money they get for food and rent...and do not buy nearly as
many hard goods.. the sale of hard goods
that fund their employers and their own jobs.
some might be interested the trades figures here in silicon valley.
- Car repaiir rates have not dropped a dime.. nor many building
services, HVAC, refrigeration, electrical repairs.
- Handyman work is off from 50 to 90 dollars an hour roughly 20%
depending on who you deal with (the driver is low cost
work from mexican imigrants who work for 10 dollars an hour on low
tech jobs)
- Doctor and attorney fees keep rising.
- Job shop rates paid to engineers (temp agencies) in my discipline,
Mechanical, industrial facilities, HVAC, refrigeration, controls..
were 35 to 40 dollars an hour in 1999... and with the USD off at least
50% since then, (rent, food and oil doubling for instance)...with
rates offered about 20% off... thats a net 70% decline in earning
power... however in the mid 90's Id get a dozen enquirys a month and
several job offers a year on the same promo (mass mailings to 2500
jobs shops nationally, such as Volt, Buttler, aerotek, etc).. since
2000 those got only those shops trolling for yet another resume from
me... and about one interview every two years.. no offers.
In the mid 90's Id get virtually every job I interviewed for.... today
in order to hire HIB these companies must demonstrate that they have
'tried to hire a US citizen, long and hard' before they can apply to
hire an HIB... some attorneys have given seminars on that...
It is a very interesting scene... both of those interviews tested... I
do very well on tests also.. scoring in the 98% range most of the
time, and probably never under 90%.. finishing early, as I saw others
in the room struggling. Not hired. In my case now age is no doubt
a huge issue as well...but looking at the larger scene its no longer
easy for anyone...
and dealing with those hired (when I have to buy materials, or get
tech help on components) those that do get hired ..that pool, is maybe
5 or 10% impressively competent... another 20% passable..and 70 or
80% drooling morons... not the faintest clue about anything, but long
on mindless jabber as they attempt to schmooze and put you off etc.
thats been fatal for many of those employers...all this as what
remains of the real talent is now retiring.
>
> > nasty at the cost of living we have in our cities... and accounts for
> > many indians and chinese moving back to their homelands... that may
>
> yep -it is not all that viable a destination for better oppurtunities,
> and have interacted with lots of US returned people in the workplace
> here.
>
> > change though as for a brief while at least, both india and china may
> > tank as the US market dies our for them... as Art has been mentioning.
>
> US employer ~= US market. Many US companies make the bulk of their
> sales outside the US and only their office is registered in the US.
a person coult argue with your assessment noticing the US is the
worlds largest consumer market,
however... but you said 'many' (not all) these sell parts made in
china to other US manufactures making assemblies in china... then
thats sold into the US..so it IS a bulk of some manufacture sold in
effect offshore... and the bulk of that avoiding US taxation entirely,
as these same companies write off money spent off shore...
>
> > However I dont think that will be the long term scene... india and
> > china had better take care though not to drive their own nations wages
> > into the pits...that will wipe out their own consumer market they will
> > now be dependent on for prosperity.
>
> Our consumer market is on the upswing, bringing profits to lots of
> MNCs. GE may end up getting a contract to build a nuclear reactor in
> India providing jobs for quite a few americans. As regards china, I do
> not know first hand -but it looks like the 2007 olympics were held in
> beijing because MNCs lobbied to do so and get an oppurtunity to
> showcase their products.
while your consumer market is on the rise, the race to the bottom wage
mentality will end up
ruining it... as all races to the bottom re wages do... exploitation
ruins people, when those are
natons workers...it ruins the nation. I hope the liabilities of
this race to the bottom leak
to you folks in india... for an example of how that works out, even
with high end talent, 70% off
wages for HiB's in the US should be a clooo. I dont thing we have
seen the worst of it either.
this mess is now being exacerbated world wide, but just starting, by
china sending out highly talented
tradesmen and techs to work on building construction and maintence
contracts in other countries, already
drawing outrage... and have recently won a huge multi billion dollar
contract in the US (stimuls bill no less).
these living 3 to a bunk can drive wages down to that level...living
standards follow...even as china rises a nothc.
You know the ratio and proportion math on that... 300 million in the
US could give it all to 2 billion in china and barely make
a dent in chinese living standards... none the less the world
economies will level... and due to the race to the bottom mentality it
will not be pretty for anyone... including India and china imo.
>
> > > US govt has spent lots of money on
> > > Iraq (without getting required oil to market) the way they did in
> > > Vietnam and like it did post-vietnam, you can only expect things to
> > > change for the worse. War bills bring with them inflation because the
> > > bills get buried under various expenses under the civilian
> > > administration.
>
> > all of this paragraph is a total understatement of course... we are a
> > nation run by drooling morons, with external complexities beyond our
> > control exacerbating the problem..radical muslims for instance,
> > supported behind the scenes by many reputable muslims and nations in
>
> yes
>
> > an effort to wipe out the infidel...as they have been doing
> > successfully for a thousand years...now the largest religion on the
> > face of the earth...and bent on becoming dominant in the US...and
> > destroy all the rock and rollers....
>
> The rise and fall of empires brings with it the rise and fall of
> religions. The people who have been converted to islam may not be as
> radical as the sterotype suggests. Islam did succeed in destroying
> many indigenous cultures including the one in mesopotamia (iraq) but
> did not really succeed in brainwashing everybody to the fullest
> extent. Iraq was till recently a secular state and saddam reviled a s
> a secular despot. Incidentally the CIA hired Saddam to counter the
> radical ayotallahs of Iran.
>
islam seems to be using a search and destroy approach in combination
with its brainwash.. I think
that accounts for the bulk of its growth.
none the less these are in the process of taking over huge parts of
engiand and france
by their breeding tactic (and with violence)... the number of wives a
factor no doubt,
but 4 kids per wife...in the USA its under 2, closer to 1.2 I think
that algorithm runs to a serious problem in just 20 years, and
complete control tendencies in 30 or 40
years...by breeding alone once past a critical mass... 20 years if
they begin with enough people to start.
it is happening big time in the US, poor people from mexico voting
democrat for the perks... we cant afford
the perks.
Phil scott
> > read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
kamal
Not exactly. Most workers of my age group have 10-15 yrs or more
experience, and draw more than 100K as salary in MNCs in the US. When
a person loses his job due to restructuring, he may not get another at
an MNC because hiring is frozen. Then they try to do something like
open source software development, wherein payment is a pittance or
voluntary, Many websites provide customized open source software for
download and have a link which allows you to donate to the guy who has
packaged it for you. Obviously, they cannot get anywhere close to what
they were making. If and when they get hired back at Fortune 500 MNCs -
their salary will rise to a more respectable level.
> forcing a downard spiral... so that those now working for less, in
> this case 70% less!! must spend virtually
> all the money they get for food and rent...and do not buy nearly as
> many hard goods.. the sale of hard goods
> that fund their employers and their own jobs.
>
> some might be interested the trades figures here in silicon valley.
>
> - Car repaiir rates have not dropped a dime.. nor many building
> services, HVAC, refrigeration, electrical repairs.
> - Handyman work is off from 50 to 90 dollars an hour roughly 20%
> depending on who you deal with (the driver is low cost
that is a supply/demand issue.
> work from mexican imigrants who work for 10 dollars an hour on low
> tech jobs)
illegals are in the same boat as H1Bs. They are held captive with
assistance from the govt machinery who will deport them if they make
too much noise.
> - Doctor and attorney fees keep rising.
>
> - Job shop rates paid to engineers (temp agencies) in my discipline,
> Mechanical, industrial facilities, HVAC, refrigeration, controls..
> were 35 to 40 dollars an hour in 1999... and with the USD off at least
> 50% since then, (rent, food and oil doubling for instance)...with
> rates offered about 20% off... thats a net 70% decline in earning
> power... however in the mid 90's Id get a dozen enquirys a month and
> several job offers a year on the same promo (mass mailings to 2500
> jobs shops nationally, such as Volt, Buttler, aerotek, etc).. since
> 2000 those got only those shops trolling for yet another resume from
> me... and about one interview every two years.. no offers.
>
comparing hi-tech with non-hi-tech is like comparing apples top
oranges. Hi-tech is a boom-and-bust sector. The technologies that
didn't exist 10 yrs back exist today and because of that manpower
qualified to work in that particular area is in short supply (only
temporarily) and demand shoots up like hell. When lots of people jump
into the sector by acquiring training, the supply increases and it
becomes unattriactive and finally when the technology gets obsoleted
as in replaced by something better, demand slows down and wages
collapse. If wages for IT work have dropped like a stone, it is
because lots of people in other countries have entered the sector. For
those who dislike the fact that supply has grown to meet demand, they
need to realize that their high salaries were because supply wasn't
good enough to meet demand and not because they were people of
extraordinary calibre.
> In the mid 90's Id get virtually every job I interviewed for.... today
> in order to hire HIB these companies must demonstrate that they have
> 'tried to hire a US citizen, long and hard' before they can apply to
> hire an HIB... some attorneys have given seminars on that...
>
There was a time when people skilled in certain trades had to go to
the US and get an MS or a certification to practice that trade. Now it
is possible to do so locally without certification from the US and if
people don't like the H1B program, there is a good chance they will
themselves opt out of it, and companies will have an easier time
filling reqs with non-H1Bs.
> It is a very interesting scene... both of those interviews tested... I
> do very well on tests also.. scoring in the 98% range most of the
> time, and probably never under 90%.. finishing early, as I saw others
> in the room struggling. Not hired. In my case now age is no doubt
> a huge issue as well...but looking at the larger scene its no longer
> easy for anyone...
>
> and dealing with those hired (when I have to buy materials, or get
> tech help on components) those that do get hired ..that pool, is maybe
> 5 or 10% impressively competent... another 20% passable..and 70 or
> 80% drooling morons... not the faintest clue about anything, but long
> on mindless jabber as they attempt to schmooze and put you off etc.
>
you may want to convey this to dead_professor or old pif.
> thats been fatal for many of those employers...all this as what
> remains of the real talent is now retiring.
>
when faced with unemployment, lots of people rely on their survival
instinct and adapt to the requirement. Maybe employers have been too
lax or job oppurtunities too good that they didn't have to be pushed
into a corner.
>
>
> > > nasty at the cost of living we have in our cities... and accounts for
> > > many indians and chinese moving back to their homelands... that may
>
> > yep -it is not all that viable a destination for better oppurtunities,
> > and have interacted with lots of US returned people in the workplace
> > here.
>
> > > change though as for a brief while at least, both india and china may
> > > tank as the US market dies our for them... as Art has been mentioning.
>
> > US employer ~= US market. Many US companies make the bulk of their
> > sales outside the US and only their office is registered in the US.
>
> a person coult argue with your assessment noticing the US is the
> worlds largest consumer market,
its a heavily debt-strapped consumer market comprising only 300
million people. Compare that with not-dso-debt laden 1.2 billion here
or 1.3 billion in china. The largest no of luxury car sales in 2009
came from asia and not from US.
> however... but you said 'many' (not all) these sell parts made in
> china to other US manufactures making assemblies in china... then
> thats sold into the US..so it IS a bulk of some manufacture sold in
> effect offshore... and the bulk of that avoiding US taxation entirely,
> as these same companies write off money spent off shore...
>
No -both HP and IBM sell the bulk of their computers outside the US
(about 55% or more). IBM is prohibited from selling some of its high
end wares outside of US -else would have made it more than 55% outside
US.
>
>
> > > However I dont think that will be the long term scene... india and
> > > china had better take care though not to drive their own nations wages
> > > into the pits...that will wipe out their own consumer market they will
> > > now be dependent on for prosperity.
>
> > Our consumer market is on the upswing, bringing profits to lots of
> > MNCs. GE may end up getting a contract to build a nuclear reactor in
> > India providing jobs for quite a few americans. As regards china, I do
> > not know first hand -but it looks like the 2007 olympics were held in
> > beijing because MNCs lobbied to do so and get an oppurtunity to
> > showcase their products.
>
> while your consumer market is on the rise, the race to the bottom wage
> mentality will end up
> ruining it... as all races to the bottom re wages do... exploitation
> ruins people, when those are
> natons workers...it ruins the nation. I hope the liabilities of
> this race to the bottom leak
> to you folks in india... for an example of how that works out, even
> with high end talent, 70% off
> wages for HiB's in the US should be a clooo. I dont thing we have
> seen the worst of it either.
>
its 70& off for labour present in the US. Over here, because of the
recession -we witnessed a flattening of wages or even a 20% decline in
wages, Both wages and cost of living has been on the rise since 1991.
But we are starting from very far behind so it might look like we are
collapsing.
> this mess is now being exacerbated world wide, but just starting, by
> china sending out highly talented
> tradesmen and techs to work on building construction and maintence
> contracts in other countries, already
> drawing outrage... and have recently won a huge multi billion dollar
> contract in the US (stimuls bill no less).
>
you need to look at what henry paulson had to say on his visit to
china. The solution is to fix the trade imbalance but not to cut off
trade. When they get paid in dollars, they get an IOU in return for
actual services rendered. If the IOUs cannot be returned back to you
by buying something from the US economy, it becomes an IOU nothing and
you can smile back at their foolishness.
> these living 3 to a bunk can drive wages down to that level...living
> standards follow...even as china rises a nothc.
>
> You know the ratio and proportion math on that... 300 million in the
> US could give it all to 2 billion in china and barely make
> a dent in chinese living standards... none the less the world
> economies will level... and due to the race to the bottom mentality it
> will not be pretty for anyone... including India and china imo.
>
but what exactly are you going to give them? Is it real wealth in
charity or is it funny money that costs nothing more than paper pulp
and a few watts of electricity? No decision to trade can be forced
down on anybody. US opted for free trade with other countries because
it saw a benefit from me and can cut down on free trade and buy only
things made locally (as art sowers wants). Its your decision at your
own discretion. That way, instead of circulating IOUs globally -you
will be circulating IOUs locally.
It grew in the dark ages rapidly because it was a disruptive force
(something like alexander the great or genghis khan before that). When
empires fell to islamic empires, there was forced islamization and the
middle east was carved into islamic and non-islamic kingdoms. It has
grown recently in the US among dis-franchised blacks. Baically, it is
a religion that attracts under-privileged people.
ok. You can control whom to let in to your country.
Me, ...again!
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, kamal wrote:
> On Dec 31 2009, 11:20 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>> On Dec 30, 9:49 pm, kamal <kama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> correct...its unlikely to say the least... demonstrated hundreds of
>> some might be interested the trades figures here in silicon valley.
>>
>> - Car repaiir rates have not dropped a dime.. nor many building
>> services, HVAC, refrigeration, electrical repairs.
>> - Handyman work is off from 50 to 90 dollars an hour roughly 20%
>> depending on who you deal with (the driver is low cost
>
> that is a supply/demand issue.
>
>> work from mexican imigrants who work for 10 dollars an hour on low
>> tech jobs)
>
> illegals are in the same boat as H1Bs.
No, the illegals are illegal. The H1Bs are legal.
They are held captive with
> assistance from the govt machinery who will deport them if they make
> too much noise.
They are all there voluntarily. There is no gun to their head.
Rest of the stuff below is pure crap....
phil scott
Not bad, I think its a little low for that sort of talent though..but
not bad.
In silicon valley though
thats 30 or 40k max after all the direct and hidden taxes.. near the
poverty level for anyone
with a family paying those rents etc (its worse in my discipline,
mech engineer in my areas,,not at apple though at the
ultra high end gismo development)
>When
> a person loses his job due to restructuring, he may not get another at
> an MNC because hiring is frozen. Then they try to do something like
> open source software development, wherein payment is a pittance or
> voluntary, Many websites provide customized open source software for
> download and have a link which allows you to donate to the guy who has
> packaged it for you. Obviously, they cannot get anywhere close to what
> they were making. If and when they get hired back at Fortune 500 MNCs -
> their salary will rise to a more respectable level.
thanks for the inside info
>
> > forcing a downard spiral... so that those now working for less, in
> > this case 70% less!! must spend virtually
> > all the money they get for food and rent...and do not buy nearly as
> > many hard goods.. the sale of hard goods
> > that fund their employers and their own jobs.
>
> > some might be interested the trades figures here in silicon valley.
>
> > - Car repaiir rates have not dropped a dime.. nor many building
> > services, HVAC, refrigeration, electrical repairs.
> > - Handyman work is off from 50 to 90 dollars an hour roughly 20%
> > depending on who you deal with (the driver is low cost
>
> that is a supply/demand issue.
correct. people who can do both brain work and work with their hands
on high end or even not so complex
systems are in short supply these days... our kiddies were brought up
not having to work.. and have been poorly schooled,
with many dropping out in highschool.
a very apt analysis... with this caveat... if the citizens of one
coutry are required by means of taxes (direct and hidden, and
by nature of the resulting cost of living) they *must be paid enough
to meet those demands.... if the same work can be done by those in a
country not engaged in wars around the world and with less govt bloat
etc...then there is an inequity.
so who's fault is the inequity? I assert its the national mess these
voted in and allow.... but also, a factor is the stake one has in the
culture..regardless what some countries do, just use people, but as in
the US an actual stake in exchange for their labor, as with retirement
funds etc. trying to marry the two cultures has problems.
those are imo inevitable..and you describe the mechanisms accurately
over the last few years.
We in the USA just demand a stake, we have or you have the right to
make that demand also....our govt thinks thats a good idea is now pays
its police more than working medical doctors to retire! (is that
viable? no)... are starvation wages viable? no.
what is the solution? I dont there is one, except learn to adapt and
structure your business and offerings to be viable amid an ever
changing set of rules and corruptions...the way of the world
apparently. I dont dispute it personally, but it is going to
resultin havoc in the USA, as the middle class goes into
collapse...and ceases being able to afford chinese goods, and indian
labor... a race to the bottom.
but then thats common with humanity... even as we advance technically,
some areas grow increasingly more insane, now we are at a threshold
where literally one man can take out an entire economy... rightly with
a new development, or with a dirty bomb etc.
My advice to india, 'pay your people enough to build a middle class
consumer economy'.. that of y our prime client is about to
collapse.you will need to rely more on your own internal demands.
>
> > In the mid 90's Id get virtually every job I interviewed for.... today
> > in order to hire HIB these companies must demonstrate that they have
> > 'tried to hire a US citizen, long and hard' before they can apply to
> > hire an HIB... some attorneys have given seminars on that...
>
> There was a time when people skilled in certain trades had to go to
> the US and get an MS or a certification to practice that trade. Now it
> is possible to do so locally without certification from the US and if
> people don't like the H1B program, there is a good chance they will
> themselves opt out of it, and companies will have an easier time
> filling reqs with non-H1Bs.
>
> > It is a very interesting scene... both of those interviews tested... I
> > do very well on tests also.. scoring in the 98% range most of the
> > time, and probably never under 90%.. finishing early, as I saw others
> > in the room struggling. Not hired. In my case now age is no doubt
> > a huge issue as well...but looking at the larger scene its no longer
> > easy for anyone...
>
> > and dealing with those hired (when I have to buy materials, or get
> > tech help on components) those that do get hired ..that pool, is maybe
> > 5 or 10% impressively competent... another 20% passable..and 70 or
> > 80% drooling morons... not the faintest clue about anything, but long
> > on mindless jabber as they attempt to schmooze and put you off etc.
>
> you may want to convey this to dead_professor or old pif.
these already know this, in spades... they just see your views as an
attack on americans etc..and
are in the habit of self defense... in the world of ideas this
defense has become the bad habit of simply
faulting or smearing the other view. (thats self destructive )...
Defense by any means is necessary in physical issues...and very often
not viable
with ideas or considerations especially if one seeks to spin things..
and especially if one attempts to ruin the other person!
.it ends up distorting ones own reality.
generates stress from the resulting dissonance (cognitive
dissonance)..and ruins their own brain and body chemistry
*ruining their health...on and on...
I was a 100%+ victim of my own behavior along those lines for
decades..one of the worst of the worst...and I paid
heavily for that range of errors even though it paid off in some
aspects of life...such as flat tracking, and cutting the balls
off of way more than a few people I met in corporations... I was
retained by more than a few very large engineering firms for
that skill set... I was well known for it...and the brains it
produces by not going into agreement with idiots.... however that is
the victory of fools.
Ive since grown out that idiocy. it wasnt easy.
thats because rationalizing ones own view, especially with attacks on
the people fronting them
is bliinding... its a wall to wall common in the world....some are
aware of their own cluelessness (on
a scale of absolutes) so keep digging for more information, and
realize that we are all in serious error,
so do not defend our views, even though we might choose in most cases
to retain them for various reasons.
what works locally, will not always work more broadly...this is comon
even within the US...Internationally
limitelssly more pronounced...and as you point out, all that is in
flux...as technology and economies change.
accordingly much of what is 'right' then is not right now, or in this
place or that, or as one ages, etc.
>
> > thats been fatal for many of those employers...all this as what
> > remains of the real talent is now retiring.
>
> when faced with unemployment, lots of people rely on their survival
> instinct and adapt to the requirement. Maybe employers have been too
> lax or job oppurtunities too good that they didn't have to be pushed
> into a corner.
thats the case alright... unfortunately when such a mess has gone on
long enough that
the talent bases retires, and the replacement kiddies were poorly
educated and never had to
struggle fixing thier own car etc.... adaption has no base on which
to stand...
thus, imo, the 5 generation life cycle of nations, where mother nature
affords us a generation
or two of starvation as motivation to adapt and advance.. (India and
china are both coming onto
their generation of prosperity... if they handlie it right, their
collapses, due after 30 to 50 years will
not be as nasty in the past...they will have a built infrastructure
and a middle class to fuel their internal
economies.
will they handle it right? not likely... greed insures the rich take
advantage of the poor until these are driven
to extinction then the nation collapses..... at that time Mother
Nature calls in her friend Darwin to step out of
the shadows clapping, and cheering... as he hands out his Darwin
awards to all those idiots running the country.
its a glorious day...followed by a few decades of fireworks.
>
> > > > nasty at the cost of living we have in our cities... and accounts for
> > > > many indians and chinese moving back to their homelands... that may
>
> > > yep -it is not all that viable a destination for better oppurtunities,
> > > and have interacted with lots of US returned people in the workplace
> > > here.
>
> > > > change though as for a brief while at least, both india and china may
> > > > tank as the US market dies our for them... as Art has been mentioning.
>
> > > US employer ~= US market. Many US companies make the bulk of their
> > > sales outside the US and only their office is registered in the US.
>
> > a person coult argue with your assessment noticing the US is the
> > worlds largest consumer market,
>
> its a heavily debt-strapped consumer market comprising only 300
> million people. Compare that with not-dso-debt laden 1.2 billion here
> or 1.3 billion in china. The largest no of luxury car sales in 2009
> came from asia and not from US.
again you are grossly understating the matter..and you are
correct...that
does not mitigate fatal errors endemic in both indian and chinese
thinking... these engage
in foot races...... to the bottom... fast because of the sloping
terrain ..those end
badly. This is sure as hell not to say that we have not screwed
things totally up in the USA, btw with
the same race to the bottom mentality... it just took us longer to
approach that finish line.
will we fix it? its a tall order.. entropy tends not to reverse.
>
> > however... but you said 'many' (not all) these sell parts made in
> > china to other US manufactures making assemblies in china... then
> > thats sold into the US..so it IS a bulk of some manufacture sold in
> > effect offshore... and the bulk of that avoiding US taxation entirely,
> > as these same companies write off money spent off shore...
>
> No -both HP and IBM sell the bulk of their computers outside the US
> (about 55% or more). IBM is prohibited from selling some of its high
> end wares outside of US -else would have made it more than 55% outside
> US.
we are both correct here in the big picture. imo.. IBM etc needs the
international markets and must compete
in those on price basis...and also sell in the US, with its higher
operating costs... but those it sells to are fast
going out of work... so its a problem. they then offshore more mfgr,
can drop their prices, but the out of work americans
cant afford them...it spirals down.
How US corporaions got this phucking stupid has been the subject of
one of my articles published in CE Weekly and reviewed by an editor at
Business Week...he called laughing, and wanted to hear who I was and
what caused me to write the article...I asked him if he
would publish it..he said no way...'its a gut shot on corporate
american, we need their advertsing accounts'.. please note...today
many, including virtually all of the biggest and best have gone
bankrupt, had their CEO's etc sent to prison or etc.
Many understood my views...few dare risk discussing them
The title of the piece (20 pages) was 'Personnel the Beginning of any
Success or Disaster" My assertions, to eliminate risks personell
and the idiots executives hiring that type sees to build a compliant
team... that hires only low achievers, non risk takers etc... that
ruins the company
btw. Steve Forbs latest book, forgot tile, its just out... about
why so many companies seek Israeli talent... very very interesting...I
heard his one hour interview on the topic last evening. The israeli
run a flat military structure, and beat every idea to death before its
tried, solving all kinds of problems... and do not penalize failure on
risks taken, in the US we fire the guy... those go into businesses
world wide and knock em dead.
In the US we penalize brains to a large extent, and reward snarks....
that snark thing has gotten to
be a habit.
> you need to look at what henry paulson had to say on ...
I dont know what he said...but I think he is an entirely corrupt moron
from what Ive seen
earlier.. with no solutions, and a lot of bogus spin (thats if I am
thinking of the right guy, which
would include the entire Obama economics cabinet.. and the Bush
cabinet before them, and most of
the Clinton cabinet before them.
the US is being run by Goldman Sachs apparently..which made money hand
over fist as we collapsed
and now more as they spin this new market... and will make even more
as phase two of this
mess hits the fan... those will own realesate at 2 cents on the
dollar... they will rent for 10 cents on the dollar.
Phil scott