age -- it is finally happening !!
Antonio Huerta
I remember 10 years ago on s.r.c. there were yells that the older
generation of professors was supposedly retiring but the jobs were not
becoming available for the younger generation. The question was where
were the jobs !???
Well, I could relate to my own experience of recent. Recently, our
head of department was promoted (he would retire from that position in
a coupla years). He brought the guy whom he favored into the head of
department position. The guy is only couple of years older than me.
Another example. I joined this govt lab about 6 years ago. There was a
younger guy who joined the lab with the same supervisor at about the
same time. Due to the politics, our dept was dissolved, and the people
were distributed among other departments. Recently, this guy got a
senior scientist position, that's a level below head of the
department. I am still a junior scientist.
Well, anyway, my thinking was that the old farts did not want to deal
with me because I was out of their circle of communication, i.e. out
of their club. Now, the guys of my age with whom I joined this lab are
becoming the managers. I would hope that now they would be putting me
in to the projects which will lead me to promotion (as Old Pif noted
once, one cannot make a career on the strength of one's skills; one
has to be appointed into success). But noooo. Not a chance. They keep
all the good projects close to their chest, and do not let an outsider
like me to them.
My theory is that these guys got used to bust their ass and to suck up
to management, and by inertia they still are doing it. They do not
realise they are managers themselves, and they would do what they want
to do. However, maybe this was the criterion why those chaps were
picked up by the senior management and brought up into the management:
they will not have initiative and will not rock the boat.
The second theory is that they are new, and they still want to do the
projects and got the credit for them and bask in the rays of success.
They did not have enough of recognition and enjoyment from getting the
fruits of management. They still think I am a competitor for them.
Only many years later (5 ? 10 ?) they will realise that they could not
do all those projects by themselves, and they need to delegate them to
the capable underlings, and fleece them off the credit for the outcome
of the projects.
BMJ
> Hi you all,
>
> I remember 10 years ago on s.r.c. there were yells that the older
> generation of professors was supposedly retiring but the jobs were not
> becoming available for the younger generation. The question was where
> were the jobs !???
>
> Well, I could relate to my own experience of recent. Recently, our
> head of department was promoted (he would retire from that position in
> a coupla years). He brought the guy whom he favored into the head of
> department position. The guy is only couple of years older than me.
Workplace Rule #1: the boss is always right.
Workplace Rule #2: when the boss is wrong, see Rule #1.
Workplace Rule #0: it's not what you know but who you know.
>
> Another example. I joined this govt lab about 6 years ago. There was a
> younger guy who joined the lab with the same supervisor at about the
> same time. Due to the politics, our dept was dissolved, and the people
> were distributed among other departments. Recently, this guy got a
> senior scientist position, that's a level below head of the
> department. I am still a junior scientist.
See my previous comments.
>
> Well, anyway, my thinking was that the old farts did not want to deal
> with me because I was out of their circle of communication, i.e. out
> of their club. Now, the guys of my age with whom I joined this lab are
> becoming the managers. I would hope that now they would be putting me
> in to the projects which will lead me to promotion (as Old Pif noted
> once, one cannot make a career on the strength of one's skills; one
> has to be appointed into success). But noooo. Not a chance. They keep
> all the good projects close to their chest, and do not let an outsider
> like me to them.
See my previous comments, especially Rule #0.
>
> My theory is that these guys got used to bust their ass and to suck up
> to management, and by inertia they still are doing it. They do not
> realise they are managers themselves, and they would do what they want
> to do. However, maybe this was the criterion why those chaps were
> picked up by the senior management and brought up into the management:
> they will not have initiative and will not rock the boat.
There's a reason why Rule #0 is more important than Rule #1.
Me
I have the hypothesis that because you are a foreigner, the cards are
stacked against you and you cannot do anything about it. I am sorry.
> The second theory is that they are new, and they still want to do the
> projects and got the credit for them and bask in the rays of success.
> They did not have enough of recognition and enjoyment from getting the
> fruits of management. They still think I am a competitor for them.
> Only many years later (5 ? 10 ?) they will realise that they could not
> do all those projects by themselves, and they need to delegate them to
> the capable underlings, and fleece them off the credit for the outcome
> of the projects.
If you want to look for the rewards of life, maybe look someplace else?
Try "the beach" or, in my case: birdwatching, squirrel-watching.
You'd better find some happiness someplace, soon, because pretty soon you
will be at retirement age and then your body will become old and most of
the guys at that age begin to experience all kinds of medical
deteriorations. And, when that happens, you will be shocked.
BMJ
Me <arth...@mv.com> wrote:
I experienced something similar in the early 1980s. I started working
for a company in another part of the country.
It soon became apparent that I was being handled as an outsider, despite
efforts on my part to be part of the group. Not only was I from another
region (and had the corresponding views), but I didn't attend the same
university as most of my colleagues and, therefore, didn't know the same
people. It wasn't just an old boys club but one of the old school as
well and, as a result, my contributions were neither appreciated nor
acknowledged.
Part of what happened might have been because my department head didn't
hide the fact that he disliked me, even during my interview. I lasted
less than a year there.
Me
Its an old story: how you can be or not be, in the "inner circle" or the
"outer circle" or be an outcast (where the majority of people are).
> Part of what happened might have been because my department head didn't
> hide the fact that he disliked me, even during my interview. I lasted
> less than a year there.
Who is THE favorite, who is among the top layer, etc., is all part of the
"pecking order" arrangement that most of us have no control over.
The "flaming self-promoters", those with animal magnetism, those with
natural born charisma, or some other ability to "walk on water" just
_might_ have a leg-up on everyone else, but usually the close-nit social
groups decide who will be admitted and neither snow, nor sleet, nor cold
will prevent them from succeeding. If they are all crooks, then THEY will
still decide who to "admit" and who to ignore. Even if you are the biggest
and best crook, there will surely still be no meritocracy process, either.
You can find plenty of proof of what I say if you read biographical
histories of various people who were, one way or the other, sooner or
later, noticed by someone who had an interest in writing about them.
I know of only two published books, authored by people I never knew, who
mentioned my name in connection with some aspect of science careers. I
felt rather neutral about what the authors wrote about me, what I did,
what I said. However, both books did try to tell the truth about these
specialized careers.
More below...
>>
>>> The second theory is that they are new, and they still want to do the
>>> projects and got the credit for them and bask in the rays of success.
>>> They did not have enough of recognition and enjoyment from getting the
>>> fruits of management. They still think I am a competitor for them.
>>> Only many years later (5 ? 10 ?) they will realise that they could not
>>> do all those projects by themselves, and they need to delegate them to
>>> the capable underlings, and fleece them off the credit for the outcome
>>> of the projects.
>>
>> If you want to look for the rewards of life, maybe look someplace else?
>>
>> Try "the beach" or, in my case: birdwatching, squirrel-watching.
>>
>> You'd better find some happiness someplace, soon, because pretty soon you
>> will be at retirement age and then your body will become old and most of
>> the guys at that age begin to experience all kinds of medical
>> deteriorations. And, when that happens, you will be shocked.
And, yes, I have also looked in other places in the universe for easier
and more accessible rewards of life.
BMJ
<snip>
>>> I have the hypothesis that because you are a foreigner, the cards are
>>> stacked against you and you cannot do anything about it. I am sorry.
>>
>> I experienced something similar in the early 1980s. I started working
>> for a company in another part of the country.
>>
>> It soon became apparent that I was being handled as an outsider, despite
>> efforts on my part to be part of the group. Not only was I from another
>> region (and had the corresponding views), but I didn't attend the same
>> university as most of my colleagues and, therefore, didn't know the same
>> people. It wasn't just an old boys club but one of the old school as
>> well and, as a result, my contributions were neither appreciated nor
>> acknowledged.
>
> Its an old story: how you can be or not be, in the "inner circle" or the
> "outer circle" or be an outcast (where the majority of people are).
>
>> Part of what happened might have been because my department head didn't
>> hide the fact that he disliked me, even during my interview. I lasted
>> less than a year there.
>
> Who is THE favorite, who is among the top layer, etc., is all part of
> the "pecking order" arrangement that most of us have no control over.
>
> The "flaming self-promoters", those with animal magnetism, those with
> natural born charisma, or some other ability to "walk on water" just
> _might_ have a leg-up on everyone else,
At the place I mentioned, there was one such character. If he knew half of
what he talked about, he would have been a genius. Several months after I
left, I had coffee with another ex-employee who'd been sacked soon after I
started. She'd clashed with this bozo prior to being booted out and went
as far as to refer to him as a crap artist.
but usually the close-nit social
> groups decide who will be admitted and neither snow, nor sleet, nor cold
> will prevent them from succeeding. If they are all crooks, then THEY
> will still decide who to "admit" and who to ignore.
You just described a lot of how things were done at the place where I used
to teach.
Even if you are the
> biggest and best crook, there will surely still be no meritocracy
> process, either.
That's because you'd likely be the boss.
>
> You can find plenty of proof of what I say if you read biographical
> histories of various people who were, one way or the other, sooner or
> later, noticed by someone who had an interest in writing about them.
In the book "Corporate Cultures" by Deal and Kennedy, written roughly 30
years ago, a story about two naval officers in a certain country who rose
through the ranks to high positions simply by putting in a good word for
each other.
Antonio Huerta
Yes, I fully realized that it was because I was a foreigner... the
cards were stacked against me. I have a few local colleagues of my age
with whom I used to shoot a breeze during the morning tea breaks. One
of them says he does not think my unsuccess is entirely because I am a
foreigner, as I had conflicts with this, that, and one more person. I
agreed with him: "50% is because I am a foreigner, and 50% because of
my inadequate personal charcetristics".
This guy is at the same junior scientist level, and he says he does
not care about promotion. He says he has enough of money to live the
life he feels comfortable with: to maintain the house he recently
bought and to have an outdoor life, play with his dogs etc. Well, good
for him; it is just not me.
But I am getting your point: I came to the realisation, too, that very
soon I will be old, and then I will look back at my life and realize
that my life consisted of fruitless expectation that my life would
improve. I need to find a happiness now, at another place, and be
happy with it. This should became a source of happiness in my life,
and not self-realisation at work.
>
> > The second theory is that they are new, and they still want to do the
> > projects and got the credit for them and bask in the rays of success.
> > They did not have enough of recognition and enjoyment from getting the
> > fruits of management. They still think I am a competitor for them.
> > Only many years later (5 ? 10 ?) they will realise that they could not
> > do all those projects by themselves, and they need to delegate them to
> > the capable underlings, and fleece them off the credit for the outcome
> > of the projects.
>
> If you want to look for the rewards of life, maybe look someplace else?
>
> Try "the beach" or, in my case: birdwatching, squirrel-watching.
>
> You'd better find some happiness someplace, soon, because pretty soon you
> will be at retirement age and then your body will become old and most of
> the guys at that age begin to experience all kinds of medical
> deteriorations. And, when that happens, you will be shocked.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
phil scott
if your brain is functional these days, you are in a tiny minority...
the rest consider you competition
that must be eliminated if you fail to praise them at every turn....
thus goes the world.
go to www.youtube.com search 'detroit' watch a few if those vids
to see where it ends. it
is the natural path of history.
Phil scott