"...blow your brains out." A statement by Leslie Packer, "psychotherapist"
EREBUS1845
posts at alt.support.tourette, here's the final cap to this sorry affair.
Leslie Packer made a veiled threat to harass me on other NGs and my forum, by
refering that it would come from AST. So I reposted her post at AST to make
them aware of what Leslie might be up to, in their name. In return, Leslie
cried foul and complained to AOL about being "off-topic" (ironic, because that
was her threat post was!), trying to censor her own abusive ways. It backfired,
because her friends here were allowed to crosspost and answer unmolested. So
that censor tactic didn't work, so Leslie blew up yet again.
This is *not* acceptable behaviour from a psychotherapist. Friendship is not
blind to outright abuse. Making threats to harass another, and now calling me
to "blow my brains out," is a serious breech of professional conduct. No
professional is "off duty," when they proclaim to be a professional in the
first place (no blurring of lines crap about her not being my therapist, she
claims to be a psychotherapist, then she should conduct herself as a credit to
that profession, not a mockery). Read the post and see for yourself -- her full
post is included:
Subject: Re: Gone for a while....
Path: lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: erebu...@aol.comTFF-FAN (EREBUS1845)
Newsgroups: alt.support.tourette
Lines: 350
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com
X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
Date: 18 Jun 1999 16:18:28 GMT
References: <3769a528...@news.erols.com>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19990618121828...@ng-cc1.aol.com>
>From: lpa...@optonline.net (lpacker)
>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:09:06 GMT
>Message-ID: <3769a528...@news.erols.com>
(Snip)
>Tuesday was one of the worst days of my life. I had to call 911 and
>have my daughter taken into the hospital. After years of struggling
>to keep my kids out of the hospital, there was nothing we could do at
>home to keep her safe. Right now, she is in a severe manic phase and
>they are trying to bring her down, but she's got a long haul ahead of
>her.
>She will be in the hospital for about a month. It is not near here,
>as we wanted to get her the best care we could and that meant a
>hospital 1 1/2 hours away. So I will be running back and forth and
>unable to keep up with news until things settle down.
Meanwhile, someone I know has just moved to hospice, and probably won't make it
through the weekend. He successfully kept 2 forms of rare cancer in check for
10 years, but a third one came out of nowhere. This war hero, who was the only
survivor of his ship, put up an amazing battle. A good man, I'm really going to
miss him.
>As to the loons from spp who come here to lie and disort and
>criminally defame
Well, just have to mix a on topic post with some of the latest MI Stigmatizing
langauge. What makes this unexcusable is that Leslie's a psychotherapist, who
has direct contact with the MH population.
Yeah, and the TS folks here just support having their kids ridiculed as a
"loon," "kook," "Frankenstein," "garbage," "crazy," and other slurs.
Should've thought about it Leslie when you rode that NAMI CONSUMER ADVOCATE
lie, back in October / November (folks just read it for yourself). Was funny
then to you, until recently the person in question was caught fudging by the
very same folks she was threatening 3 lawsuits against. These are your friends,
Leslie. You tried to keep it a secret over here, but when you make veiled
threats of trying to spam NGs I frequent, don't cry foul when I report your
behaviour to the NG YOU frequent. I have a right to defend myself from such
harassment, and you should've known not to make such veiled threats in light of
the crap that occurred to me recently.
What's criminal is that you support folks who tell a MH Consumer with past SI
behaviours to FOAD, and now YOU asking to blow my brains out. That's a serious
lapse of professional ethics.
This is your TS "leader" folks in it's full light.
>well, you folks in a.s.t. have enough knowledge
>of me to realize that they are making assertions but wisely do not
>even try to post message IDs and full contexts as the truth does not
>support their paranoid ideation and defamatory comments.
Well, Leslie you purposely deleted AST from the crosspost to post a veiled
threat to me, thinking it'll go nowhere. Sorry, after what Rauni and crew have
done on and offline, I will repost their's and your's crap that is abusive. I
will not be your "victim," nor tolerate your MH Stigmatizing ways.
Oh, you don't want me to post full details, or this NG would be flooded with
the *truth* about you. Love for you to complain to AOL once they preview that
crap.
I don't complain to ISPs, and offline until I'm personally attacked, Leslie.
When there's a clear boundary crossing, I will. And the thing is folks listen,
because I don't abuse the system with complaints, and I'll provide them the
COMPLETE references -- no packets, no snippets.
AOL and other ISPs must have a log about you by now. Constant complainers are
treated like uninvited salespeople, if you didn't know. But thanks for
complaining to AOL.
>To
>paraphrase Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men," they can't handle the
>truth when it doesn't match their fervently held beliefs and agendas.
>I was and am scientifically conservative
Too bad Leslie that you used that character as an example -- he was the CO in
charge of his men, and allowed "red alerts" (hazing of Marines who didn't abeit
by social conventions of a particular unit -- which is illegal by the Military
code of justice). Thanks for letting folks know what you think is "right" and
"ethical."
Don't believe me, rent the video yourself.
Again, I have absolutely no agendas, Leslie. I just report my direct
experience, or what I've seen, read or know personally.
It's fervent when you try to hurt another. I called your marker, and it's
because you crossed both professional and personal ethical boundaries.
>-- I do the same in spp that
>I do here, which is to protest when people make sweeping statements
>that go beyond what the research supports.
Stigmatizing folks, and then making veiled threats isn't protesting, it's
abuse.
There's plenty of direct experience out there about CSA as being horrid, but
you don't want Survivors to speak up or out about it. How about your TS
clients?? Do you just allow those who agree with *your* views to have any say
here and elsewhere? You just shown here recently you're a censor. What else are
you trying to hush up?
You complain about my character, Leslie, so if the shoe fits wear it yourself.
>Because I have held true
>to that conservatism, they have tried to brand me a pedophile, a
>pedophile supporter, and God knows what else.
You're actions speak of you being a pedophile supporter, Leslie. You don't like
that, but look at the evidence. Whenever someone posts something about CSA that
disagrees with some FMSF and NAMBLA agenda, your friends and you come out to
denounce it. Even though there's thousands of pure scientifically conducted
studies that show CSA is harmful, you want so desperately to cling onto some
meta-analysis, or some other non-peer reviewed study to support that raping
kids isn't harmful. No child asks to be raped -- none, zip, zero.
A pedophile (and their supporters) try to excuse it by bad "science," state
that a child wants to be raped (they just hate that word "rape," it's only
"love" to them when they tear the insides out of a child, emotionally and
physically), and that it's the child who came onto them -- which makes it's
justifiable to them. Nevermind self-control. Then there's a whole other agenda
of trying to legalize (the NAMBLA line) pedophilia to make these perps get away
with harming more kids.
I'm a Survivor, Leslie, you can try to fool others but you will never full
someone who's lived through it. It was wrong then, a child FEELS it's wrong,
and it's wrong today.
>When they don't have
>the facts,
I'm a walking experience of fact. So are thousands of other Survivors of abuse.
They know directly the effects of it, something no one else does. It's like
trying to explain the daily life of TS to the very same doctors I've read on
this NG. No one would understand more than the population that's affected by a
condition.
>they resort to such innuendo and name-calling and attempts
>to smear character.
No Leslie that's your tactics -- it's YOU who started with the Stigmatizing
line, ran off to AOL to censor, *and* made a veiled threat to spam not only
Usenet NGs where I visit, but my own BPD forum. That's the facts, Leslie.
>Unfortunately for them, I don't back off.
Same with me. Attack me, and folks will know about it. Don't attack me, and I
won't need to post about you.
> I
>will not let them use pseudoscience or bastardize science to serve
>their moral agendas -- even if I agree with them on the moral issue.
I don't NEED science to prove to me that CSA is harmful, I'm living proof of
it! You'd cry out about my BPD symptoms, but fail to see that a lot of
Borderlines are victims of abuse. As well as MPD/DIDs. We're walking
testimonials of how abuse messes with one's mind, and how it leaves a legacy
years on down the road. YOU don't want to admit it, but go on with this
"pseudoscience" crap to try to discount Survivors of their OWN feelings, and
experiences.
Read the hard numbers, Leslie, and how many of the MI have experienced abuse.
That's a shockingly high number, and no one can refute that abuse is harmful
with such numbers -- except for folks who in fact who use "pseudoscience" to
debunk legitamate studies with thousands of subjects.
Meta-analysis is previewing other studies and rounding up the statistics, it's
not conducting a study with human controls from the conception to the final
review.
>To them -- to Curio and Erebus1845
Leslie, my nick is TOR, and you just tried to make a slur because Erebus just
matches your perceptions of me. Tell the audience what EREBUS1845 means, okay?
No? Well, I will. It's a name of Sir John Franklin's 1845-1848 Northwest
Passage Expedition flag ship. The same ship that sailed to Anarctica, under
Ross, and where Mount Erebus was named after. You wish to use it as it's more
sinister meaning, as what Price and his flock like to call, "the little lord of
darkness." You folks play word games to try to misconceive the public, and I
just busted another of your misconceptions you tried to weasle through.
>I don't have time to show you up
>for the McCarthy-type paranoid loons
Hey, Leslie in case you didn't know, that's a NAMBLA trademark line. That's how
folks know FMSF and NAMBLA "dead agents" are on NGs.
"Paranoid loons," very professional online Dxing from a "psychotherapist."
>you are, as I've got to take
>care of my daughter, so I'll simply say:
>
>Do the children of this world a favor and blow your brains out.
>You're both a hazard to kids.
>
Again shows the world how messed up psychologically you are, Leslie. That's God
awful references. But thanks for putting it on the record in case AOL and your
ISP needs to be notified.
Play games and it backfires. Go offline to harass, and you will be called for
what you are. Make veiled threats (and now since Leslie has stated that I kill
myself, is no longer a veiled threat), you only make yourself the fool now.
I didn't have to do anything, Leslie, you discredit yourself with your very own
words.
[Full post below for the public record]...
>Subject: Gone for a while....
>Path:
>lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!outgoi
ng.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
>From: lpa...@optonline.net (lpacker)
>Newsgroups: alt.support.tourette
>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:09:06 GMT
>Organization: none
>Lines: 39
>Message-ID: <3769a528...@news.erols.com>
>Reply-To: lpa...@optonline.net
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>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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>X-Complaints-To: ab...@rcn.com
>NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 1999 02:09:44 GMT
>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.01/32.397
>
>
>
>Tuesday was one of the worst days of my life. I had to call 911 and
>have my daughter taken into the hospital. After years of struggling
>to keep my kids out of the hospital, there was nothing we could do at
>home to keep her safe. Right now, she is in a severe manic phase and
>they are trying to bring her down, but she's got a long haul ahead of
>her.
>
>She will be in the hospital for about a month. It is not near here,
>as we wanted to get her the best care we could and that meant a
>hospital 1 1/2 hours away. So I will be running back and forth and
>unable to keep up with news until things settle down.
>
>As to the loons from spp who come here to lie and disort and
>criminally defame -- well, you folks in a.s.t. have enough knowledge
>of me to realize that they are making assertions but wisely do not
>even try to post message IDs and full contexts as the truth does not
>support their paranoid ideation and defamatory comments. To
>paraphrase Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men," they can't handle the
>truth when it doesn't match their fervently held beliefs and agendas.
>I was and am scientifically conservative -- I do the same in spp that
>I do here, which is to protest when people make sweeping statements
>that go beyond what the research supports. Because I have held true
>to that conservatism, they have tried to brand me a pedophile, a
>pedophile supporter, and God knows what else. When they don't have
>the facts, they resort to such innuendo and name-calling and attempts
>to smear character. Unfortunately for them, I don't back off. I
>will not let them use pseudoscience or bastardize science to serve
>their moral agendas -- even if I agree with them on the moral issue.
>
>To them -- to Curio and Erebus1845 -- I don't have time to show you up
>for the McCarthy-type paranoid loons you are, as I've got to take
>care of my daughter, so I'll simply say:
>
>Do the children of this world a favor and blow your brains out.
>You're both a hazard to kids.
>
>Leslie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Let's see how many SPP practicing psychotherapists, academic psychologists, and
psych students rationalize this behaviour as appropriate, "off duty," or you
"YOU DESERVE IT!!"
This should be a lesson to all psych folks out there (and MH Consumers) what a
psychotherapist should not do in practice, nor speak about it public. It goes
against everything a psych professional stands for, and what MH Consumers don't
need/want in their Tx staff -- that a fact.
TOR
Consumer Advocate
--
"Raoul, Raoul, Raoul and the Kings of Spain
Making it plain, making it sane
To turn this loss into a gain"
------Raoul and the Kings of Spain -- 1995 -- Tears For Fears
EREBUS1845
>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:28:50 GMT
>Message-ID: <Cdwa3.1389$FK.2...@news.itd.umich.edu>
(Snip)
>So what about Leslie's credentials? As far as I can see, they still look
>impeccable.
>
>smw
One can be trained by Freud and Jung themselves, it doesn't mean that the
person is any better at wisdom because of the training. Leslie lacked to know
the difference between wisdom, and being foolish to herself, and her
profession.
Harassment and death threats, professionally ethical to you, Silke? Or is this
another blurring the lines between excusing the behaviour, and bashing the
opponent?
This isn't a word game...
John M Price PhD
wrong, and a high school dropout could have the key all licensing boards
are looking for. NOT!
And considering the post this idiot, erebu...@aol.com , took off from,
it is clear evidence of her narcissistic cruelty. Would that tor would
follow Narcissus, as suggested, but alas, she needs to be cruel to
everyone. This is her life now: Unproductive, flittering about trashing
everyone eventually. And completely without any self knowledge, her life
is a lie - for she does not recognize those lies when presented her.
One informative, but not generally, post in a year's torent of crap is not
useful to usenet or its readers. Tor is simply self aggrandized redundant
and bilious bilge water best kill filed. A true waste of bandwidth.
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <Cdwa3.1389$FK.2...@news.itd.umich.edu> Silke-Maria Weineck <sm...@umich.edu> wrote:
: EREBUS1845 <erebu...@aol.comTFF-FAN> wrote:
: : For those who didn't follow the thread about Leslie's credentials,
: So what about Leslie's credentials? As far as I can see, they still look
: impeccable.
: smw
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that
a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for
the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a
law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and
punishment.
- Albert Einstein - Letter to M. Berrkowitz, October 25, 1950
Einstein Archive 59-215
from "The Quotable Einstein" by Alice Calaprice
ka...@hotmail.com
erebu...@aol.comTFF-FAN (EREBUS1845) wrote:
>From: Silke-Maria Weineck <sm...@umich.edu>
>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:28:50 GMT
>Message-ID: <Cdwa3.1389$FK.2...@news.itd.umich.edu>
>So what about Leslie's credentials? As far as I can see, they
>still look impeccable.
>smw
>One can be trained by Freud and Jung themselves, it doesn't
>mean that the person is any better at wisdom because of the
>training.
That's for sure. As I've always said, Leslie Packer's
judgment is extremely poor.
>Harassment and death threats, professionally ethical to you,
>Silke?
She probably thinks she's still in a Jackie Collins novel.
Of course it's not acceptable, but some of these people
are so sociopathic that it does no good to appeal
to their "higher" nature. I would prefer to appeal to
their licensing boards.
Karen Jones
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Underground Panther
> About threats...
DO NOT let her toy and straighen herself out, wins off group supports
privately or apologise, or play post her stuff expose it because abuse
thrives on silence,and keeping yhe 'peace' SO do it,post it now.There
should be no place to hide and nothing kept private when threats are
made.
John M Price PhD
ka...@hotmail.com, eh?
Lose another account, kook?
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
VIRGO (Aug 23 - Sept 22)
You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nitpicking is
sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and
sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus
drivers.
EREBUS1845
>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:59:41 GMT
>Message-ID: <hjza3.1405$FK.2...@news.itd.umich.edu>
(Snip)
>You're not answering the question.
Yep, sure did.
And I don't believe for a minute that
>Leslie made a "death threat" against anybody.
Read the post, Silke and not try to excuse it offhand.
I have witnessed her help
>online dozens of people, though, by providing professionally informed
>advice, naming valuable resources, summarizing the state of the field wrt
>Tourette, etc. You, however, have not contributed a single valuable post
>in all the years I've intermittently glanced at your stuff.
I don't care if she's the Messiah, she told me to "blow my brains out." Now,
Silke if you want to blur the lines, that your right, but you know I don't give
an iota for your opinion above.
You just disqualified yourself, Silke. I haven't been here for years. Shoot
I've been online just over a year.
In other
>words, you're a twit.
In other words you're an ivory tower guardian, who can't see past your nose.
Leslie is a woman, a professional, and a Mensch.
She's an abuser and is exposed.
EREBUS1845
>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 22:05:30 GMT
>Message-ID: <7kefr4$v5i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
(Snip)
I stated:
>>One can be trained by Freud and Jung themselves, it doesn't
>>mean that the person is any better at wisdom because of the
>>training.
Karena wrote:
>That's for sure. As I've always said, Leslie Packer's
>judgment is extremely poor.
I still can't believe she'd waste everything to spout off like that, Curio.
I've had times when I wanted to state some vile things, but common sense
prevails.
Wished she'd remember the Serenity prayer!
I stated:
>>Harassment and death threats, professionally ethical to you,
>>Silke?
Karena wrote:
>She probably thinks she's still in a Jackie Collins novel.
LOL! It's all a black comedy here isn't it? Where friends of friends protect
others because they have religious and other ties. A clique that one has to
protect another to get in. And why some folks (like Sara) wonder why they just
don't fit in with anyone here. Or they become like Gene, compromise for
security.
>Of course it's not acceptable, but some of these people
>are so sociopathic that it does no good to appeal
>to their "higher" nature.
Yes, and I can see that's very evident. How can *anyone* justify "blow your
brains out?" Only one with a pathological need to destroy another.
I would prefer to appeal to
>their licensing boards.
It all depends on what happens.
John M Price PhD
: I don't care if she's the Messiah, she told me to "blow my brains out." Now,
That is not a threat. That is a suggestion.
Do you need to learn the difference? Are you going to go the silly and
ignorant 'bander' path again? Try a dictionary.
Silly kook,
Usenet's for readers!
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
It is better that ten guilty escape than one innocent suffer.
- Sir William Blackstone Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1765
John M Price PhD
Tsk, tsk. Lost another account. Funny how you cannot hear what that is
saying to you.
: I don't like that Leslie Packer tells both of us to blow our
: brains out or John Price's reference to my death over the
: years.
You mean this piece? - from an old post:
=== begin extract ===
: Looking up research written under someones name does not verify for
: me that they are in fact the person I'm interacting with on the
internet.
And you the stench of a long dead crustacean can say that in all
honesty. We only have your scentful desecration of life to tell you
were here. In that, there is the goodness of your absence. I am sure
it would be much more hidious to see the depraved and flacid caricture
of concinnity your immature peccable self has become. One might hope
for the curse of Moses, but face on to prevent memories of the event.
You are simply charnel wax, nothing more. You pollute by your very
presence humanity itself, and melt in the heat of truth.
By your continued spillage of billious screed you despoil even the
language.
FOAD.
=== end extract ===
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
When two distinct objects are unlike to each other, it is only what we
expect; things are in their common way; and therefore they make no
impression on the imagination: but when two distinct objects have a
resemblance, we are struck, we attend to them, and we are pleased. The
mind of man has naturally a far greater alacrity and satisfaction in
tracing resemblances than in searching for differences: because by making
resemblances we produce new images; we unite, we create, we enlarge our
stock; but in making distinctions we offer no food at all to the
imagination; the task itself is more severe and irksome, and what pleasure
we derive from it is something of a negative and indirect nature. . . .
Hence it is that men are much more naturally inclined to belief than to
incredulity.
- Edmund Burke
Pogo Possum
that famous empathy Underground Panther was rattling on about?
FOAD Tor.
EREBUS1845 wrote in message
<19990618193659...@ng-cl1.aol.com>...
>>From: Silke-Maria Weineck <sm...@umich.edu>
>>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:59:41 GMT
>>Message-ID: <hjza3.1405$FK.2...@news.itd.umich.edu>
>
>
>
>(Snip)
>
>
>
>>You're not answering the question.
>
>
>
>Yep, sure did.
>
>
>
> And I don't believe for a minute that
>>Leslie made a "death threat" against anybody.
>
>
>
>Read the post, Silke and not try to excuse it offhand.
>
>
>
> I have witnessed her help
>>online dozens of people, though, by providing professionally
informed
>>advice, naming valuable resources, summarizing the state of the
field wrt
>>Tourette, etc. You, however, have not contributed a single valuable
post
>>in all the years I've intermittently glanced at your stuff.
>
>
>
>I don't care if she's the Messiah, she told me to "blow my brains
out." Now,
>Silke if you want to blur the lines, that your right, but you know I
don't give
>an iota for your opinion above.
>
>You just disqualified yourself, Silke. I haven't been here for years.
Shoot
>I've been online just over a year.
>
>
>
> In other
>>words, you're a twit.
>
>
>
>In other words you're an ivory tower guardian, who can't see past
your nose.
>
>
>
> Leslie is a woman, a professional, and a Mensch.
>
>
>
>She's an abuser and is exposed.
>
>
EREBUS1845
>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:41:26 -0400
>Message-ID: <376ACB15...@erols.com>
(Snip)
>> About threats...
>DO NOT let her toy and straighen herself out,
Right on, Panther! No blurring of lines, no excusing abuse.
wins off group supports
>privately or apologise,
Yes, I know. Nice in Email, but nasty on the NG. Have to save face with the
status quo here.
Oh, I bet she'll apologize in Email to her friends, so they can feel sorry for
her.
or play post her stuff expose it because abuse
>thrives on silence,
That's why I reposted at AST, then here. Her friends jumped in to support,
making like I was the abuser. Didn't wash (thanks Rauni for the training ;).
I'm not that insecure to have to have their approval. They showed their butts
when they ran off to AOL to complain. No ISP would touch it, when it was done
after a confrontation about possible online harassment.
and keeping yhe 'peace' SO do it,post it now.
It's been posted you'll have to read all the way down to the end of the post
which started this thread, sorry. It's in the last paragraph of her post. But
it's there in black in white, no distorting, no snipping.
Can you believe she's a "practicing* "psychotherapist" at that??
There
>should be no place to hide and nothing kept private when threats are
>made.
Amen. I report all abuse publicly just in case they try something in RL. Confer
all suspicions with friends, and document everything to make sure that nothing
slips through the cracks.
Sad isn't it that we have to point the above out with this NG, eh? That's how
sick it is.
ka...@hotmail.com
erebu...@aol.comTFF-FAN (EREBUS1845) wrote:
>From: ka...@hotmail.com
T>One can be trained by Freud and Jung themselves, it doesn't
>mean that the person is any better at wisdom because of the
>training.
K>That's for sure. As I've always said, Leslie Packer's
>judgment is extremely poor.
T>I still can't believe she'd waste everything to spout off
>like that, Curio. I've had times when I wanted to state some
>vile things, but common sense prevails.
I know. I think one can write flames, even insults, and some
of it is even humorous or entertaining. It ceases to be funny
when people use violent imagery. I don't like what Fiona
stated to UG Panther -- using suicide imagery under guise of
myth. I don't like what Nancy Alvarado stated to you, (FOAD)
I don't like that Leslie Packer tells both of us to blow our
brains out or John Price's reference to my death over the
years.
For the regulars on this sci group, I know I'm going to
have to spell this out for you. It's unacceptable because
it indicates very poor judgment, a serious lack of self-control,
indicates severe character defects, and it's incredibly
abusive -- even from a lay person. For a self-proclaimed
psychotherapist and "child advocate," it raises so many red
flags for me personally (and I thought my hackles were
raised enough) that I really can't ignore it. Some people
who have past SI can be triggered by words such as this.
T>Harassment and death threats, professionally ethical to you,
>Silke?
K>She probably thinks she's still in a Jackie Collins novel.
>LOL! It's all a black comedy here isn't it? Where friends of
>friends protect others because they have religious and other
>ties. A clique that one has to protect another to get in.
Yes, Silke has played her own games over the years and lied
to me via e-mail to try to get me to cancel one of my own
posts under false pretenses, but I tend to reward good behavior,
no matter how slight. I'll leave it at that unless there's
reason to expand on these comments.
>And why some folks (like Sara) wonder why they just
> don't fit in with anyone here.
I'm just skimming some of these posts. I read her commentary
and I consider it to be a bizarre take on events.
K>Of course it's not acceptable, but some of these people
>are so sociopathic that it does no good to appeal
>to their "higher" nature.
T>Yes, and I can see that's very evident. How can *anyone*
>justify "blow your brains out?" Only one with a pathological
>need to destroy another.
If you are shocked at this it's probably because you are
a genuinely good person and want to think the best of people.
I do that on occasion but not with people who indicate early
on that they have sociopathic tendencies. I got her number
years ago. It has nothing to do with exchanging dialogue
with a person who holds a legitimate difference of opinion,
it has to do with my awareness of conscious deception. She
has made it more than obvious over the years, as have many
here. It could also be due to my work background and personal
life experience, most of which I do not disclose.
I don't care too much to write posts for this newsgroup
alone because I consider it to be a cesspool and a closed
system. There's nothing to be gained by just writing here
-- for me.
K>I would prefer to appeal to their licensing boards.
>It all depends on what happens.
Yes, since she said it to both of us, we are each free
to handle it as we see fit.
KJ
karen...@my-deja.com
John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
> In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <7kefr4$v5i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
ka...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> ka...@hotmail.com, eh?
> Lose another account
Who were you writing to John??
K. Curio Jones
Curio...@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/senate/7736/aq.html
karen...@my-deja.com
John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
> In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <7kefr4$v5i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
ka...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> ka...@hotmail.com, eh?
>
Do you mean did the Temple of Set censor me again?
Um, what???
K. Curio Jones
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/senate/7736/aq.html
Temple of Set
EREBUS1845
>Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 01:33:00 GMT
>Message-ID: <377cf26f...@207.211.168.90>
(Snip)
>You are unbelievably *stupid*!! she told you what you could do with
>yourself!!! Considering what a nasty self centered piece of work you
>are, she let you off easy!!
And you're psychologically ill, Rauni. Do get some psychological help. First
you lied about your lawsuit threats to NAMI, and now trying to condone
behaviour *no* psychological body would judge as appropriate behaviour of a
professional.
>Yeah and just look at all the friends you have made.....
Plenty, and that just makes you even more sad, Rauni. The only friends you made
are in your image.
EREBUS1845
>Date: 18 Jun 1999 20:11:44 -0700
>Message-ID: <376b0a70@calwebnnrp>
(Snip)
>Tsk, tsk. Lost another account. Funny how you cannot hear what that is
>saying to you.
For a UNIX pro, you should know Deja.com offers an option to post via an Email
account, or their own.
But truth isn't what you're seeking.
>You mean this piece? - from an old post:
This thread is about Leslie "Blow your brains out" Packer, not you.
Dan Rogers
It was intended to be cruel and personal. That is wrong, and
you can't excuse it.
You attack Leslie and others for not being professional at all
times. You damn yourself with your own behavior, because a
so-called "consumer advocate" would never attack others in
such a fashion.
You owe Leslie and a lot of others an apology.
EREBUS1845
>Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:53:06 -0500
>Message-ID: <7kg7ei$upk$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>
Dan, you make yourself even more despicable by trying to judge, when you're a
hypocritical, unethical, abuse excuser, who's been holding SPP hostage with
your immature antics with "Brad." You should be ashamed of yourself for even
defending such a horrid remark.
As a professional you should know about "conflict resolutions." In fact all
you've been doing for YEARS is trying to justify abusing folks. You're the
poster child of hypocrisy, a whiney, runny nosed kid who backchannels support
in trying to bring down anyone who you disagree.
You have no excuse to sit and judge anyone when your behaviour helped cause SPP
to be a cesspool *long* before I arrived.
Dan Rogers
and with no hint of empathy, sympathy, or caring.
Besides, I have not "attacked people" or held any
newsgroup hostage. I have attacked one and only one
person on this newsgroup. Period. And I consistently
tried to move those discussions to other newsgroups.
You were wrong. And you owe Leslie an apology.
You are being a "Tor advocate," not a "consumer
advocate." Anybody who is really concerned with
issues of mental health "consumers" would never have
responded to Leslie the way you did.
I am really disturbed that you did.
EREBUS1845 wrote in message
<19990619232535...@ng-cq1.aol.com>...
EREBUS1845
>Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:33:09 -0500
>Message-ID: <7kk6pb$1828$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>
>Tor, you were wrong. You attacked someone for no reason
>and with no hint of empathy, sympathy, or caring.
>
>Besides, I have not "attacked people" or held any
>newsgroup hostage. I have attacked one and only one
>person on this newsgroup. Period. And I consistently
>tried to move those discussions to other newsgroups.
>
>You were wrong. And you owe Leslie an apology.
>
Here read this...
http://idealist.com/memories/ethicalstandards.shtml
Get a real clue why you abuse excuse supporters are wrong.
Jeeze, a MH Consumer has to point out to these pseudo professionals their own
professional ethics.
Dan L. Rogers
nothing to do with the fact that you were wrong. You intentionally tried
to hurt somebody. Worse, while you claim to be concerned about
"consumers" of mental health services, you attacked someone who was
in fact a consumer, and you attacked them on that basis.
Whatever that other person might have done to you, you were wrong
for your behavior. Period.
You owe her and the group an apology.
EREBUS1845 <erebu...@aol.comTFF-FAN> wrote in message
news:19990620222707...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
> >From: "Dan Rogers" <dlro...@frontiernet.net>
shardik
EREBUS1845 <erebu...@aol.comTFF-FAN> wrote in article
<19990618193659...@ng-cl1.aol.com>...
>. I haven't been here for years. Shoot
> I've been online just over a year.
And just how many newsgroups have you destroyed in your short online life?
Your such a fucking jerk!
Shar
Dan L. Rogers
or similar vein, that I have posted except regarding bradless.
Or any example of my trying "to bring down anybody" with
whom I disagree.
On the contrary, I learn a lot from people with whom I do
not agree, and I enjoy the opinions of others. I am not
attacking you now, am I? Look at the post below: where
is the attack? I used as harsh a tone as I ever do (except with
bradless, where I was one of the gentler voices).
You seem to have a very difficult time responding with
anything other than invective, and I don't know why. The
people you attack do not deserve the sort of insulting,
overly personalized responses you give. I have
certainly never done anything to you to warrant your
nastiness.
I would much rather engage in meaningful dialogue,
and I would very much appreciate it if you would do the
same.
EREBUS1845 wrote in message
<19990619232535...@ng-cq1.aol.com>...
>>From: "Dan Rogers" <dlro...@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:53:06 -0500
>>Message-ID: <7kg7ei$upk$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>
>
>
>
>>Tor, the fact is that your original post in this thread was inappropriate.
>>It was intended to be cruel and personal. That is wrong, and
>>you can't excuse it.
>>
>>You attack Leslie and others for not being professional at all
>>times. You damn yourself with your own behavior, because a
>>so-called "consumer advocate" would never attack others in
>>such a fashion.
>>
>>You owe Leslie and a lot of others an apology.
>
>
>
>Dan, you make yourself even more despicable by trying to judge, when you're
a
>hypocritical, unethical, abuse excuser, who's been holding SPP hostage with
>your immature antics with "Brad." You should be ashamed of yourself for
even
>defending such a horrid remark.
>
>As a professional you should know about "conflict resolutions." In fact all
>you've been doing for YEARS is trying to justify abusing folks. You're the
>poster child of hypocrisy, a whiney, runny nosed kid who backchannels
support
>in trying to bring down anyone who you disagree.
>
>You have no excuse to sit and judge anyone when your behaviour helped cause
SPP
>to be a cesspool *long* before I arrived.
>
>
EREBUS1845
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:15:02 -0500
>Message-ID: <7km9rr$144i$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>
>I have read the Pope article long before you introduced it here. And it has
>nothing to do with the fact that you were wrong. You intentionally tried
>to hurt somebody. Worse, while you claim to be concerned about
>"consumers" of mental health services, you attacked someone who was
>in fact a consumer, and you attacked them on that basis.
>
>Whatever that other person might have done to you, you were wrong
>for your behavior. Period.
>
>You owe her and the group an apology.
Coming from someone who claims to know psychology, and posts on a NG about the
death of another, you make a mockery of yourself almost daily. Plus shows how
hypocritical you can be, when you try to pass judgement.
Bet you'll never understand Pope's web page, since one has to have the
compacity to be ethical to grasp it in the first place.
But thanks for showing folks where you stand.
EREBUS1845
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 03:14:54 GMT
>Message-ID: <O6ib3.1649$FK.3...@news.itd.umich.edu>
(Snip)
>Go and consume some already.
>
>smw
You're the one advertizing you want "salsa" with them.
Best not to speak when your mouth is full, though. Can make hypocrites choke on
their own "food."
Dan L. Rogers
"post[ed] on a NG about the death of another."
Simply put, I have not.
I have not tried to pass judgment, but you are certainly
avoiding taking humane responsibility for your hurtful, cruel
comments. I don't know your motives, I don't know what
likely unmet needs impel your cruelty on the internet. I
only know that your comments to Leslie passed far beyond
the line that demarks "unacceptable" and "reprehensible."
Attack me all you want. But you owe Leslie and apology.
That is all I have to say to you. Your behavior deserves
shunning, and I shall most certainly contribute to such
an end.
EREBUS1845 wrote in message
<19990624034632...@ng-fl1.aol.com>...
>>From: "Dan L. Rogers" <dlro...@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:15:02 -0500
>>Message-ID: <7km9rr$144i$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>
>>>I have read the Pope article long before you introduced it here. And it
has
>>nothing to do with the fact that you were wrong. You intentionally tried
>>to hurt somebody. Worse, while you claim to be concerned about
>>"consumers" of mental health services, you attacked someone who was
>>in fact a consumer, and you attacked them on that basis.
>>
>>Whatever that other person might have done to you, you were wrong
>>for your behavior. Period.
>>
>>You owe her and the group an apology.
>
>
>
>Coming from someone who claims to know psychology, and posts on a NG about
the
>death of another, you make a mockery of yourself almost daily. Plus shows
how
>hypocritical you can be, when you try to pass judgement.
>
>Bet you'll never understand Pope's web page, since one has to have the
>compacity to be ethical to grasp it in the first place.
>
>But thanks for showing folks where you stand.
>
>
EREBUS1845
>Message-ID: <7ktb1k$sfu$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>
(Snip)
>Tor, please post any article where I have, as you just claimed,
>"post[ed] on a NG about the death of another."
You know darn well what you're doing, Dan. These posts you're posting are a
clear example of excusing abuse.
>Simply put, I have not.
If you haven't realized it, you are now.
>I have not tried to pass judgment,
This is what makes your posts to me so pathetic, since you don't seem to even
realize what you're doing (except for playing games).
Don't forget that you help keep this NG hostage with the "Brad" affair, so much
so you'd even Emailed me about it.
> but you are certainly
>avoiding taking humane responsibility for your hurtful, cruel
>comments.
Well, what's isn't humane is the crap you folks are doing, especially under the
circumstances I'm in. Yet, unlike Leslie, I don't exploit it.
>I don't know your motives,
It's not motives, it's what MH Consumers don't tolerate in MHPs. If you don't
know that, you're really out of touch with RL.
>I don't know what
>likely unmet needs impel your cruelty on the internet.
Actually I'm no way near as obnoxious folks here.
>I
>only know that your comments to Leslie passed far beyond
>the line that demarks "unacceptable" and "reprehensible."
Dan, I suggest that if you're that geniunely outraged, contact any
psychological organization and ask them if what Leslie stated is professionally
proper, and then report back.
This is why your remarks won't go anywhere, except with equally unethical
folks.
>Attack me all you want. But you owe Leslie and apology.
>
Leslie's the one who owe's Karena and I the apology.
>That is all I have to say to you
Really?
>Your behavior deserves
>shunning,
No Dan it's your friends and yourself here. It's really pathetic to watch you
folks scream "witch hunt," when it's your behaviour that caused the problem in
the first place.
Psych professionals don't act like this in RL. If they did they'd either be in
prison, lost their licence to practice, and/or removed from teaching positions.
>and I shall most certainly contribute to such
>an end.
Not surprised with your backchanneling.
But then again thanks for letting folks know of your intentions, and
motivations.
sara...@my-deja.com
I am also a mental health consumer. If I find this newsgroup
detrimental to my health, assuming I am competent, I am responsible for
taking positive action:
Assuming I am competent:
No one forces me to read this group. I can choose to avoid it.
No one forces me to post on this group. I can avoid that.
No one forces me to believe what is said about me or to me. I make that
choice.
I'm finding it harder and harder to hear what you are saying and feeling
more and more sympathy with those you and your allies attack.
Saragale
In article <19990624124921...@ng-cc1.aol.com>,
EREBUS1845
>Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:24:54 GMT
>Message-ID: <7ku0lo$eu4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
(Snip)
>Tor:
>
>I am also a mental health consumer.
So that's suppose to excuse abuse, eh?
> If I find this newsgroup
>detrimental to my health, assuming I am competent, I am responsible for
>taking positive action:
I'm taking very positive action. Leslie Packer, a psychotherapist tells 2
people to "blow your brains out," and it's quite responsible to report that
ethical violation when it occurs. Those who pooh pooh it as a "right," are
exposed in the end of their own lack of ethics. This helps MH Consumers who
just came here what's not acceptable in a psych professional, and what to
avoid.
That's quite positive, Sara. Some folks aren't interested in using excuses or
in denial when abuse occurs. They report abuse publicly so the dirty deed
doesn't get sidetracked in what you're doing today.
>Assuming I am competent:
>No one forces me to read this group.
Nor to post to me, because you'd know my response anyway.
> I can choose to avoid it.
But didn't. You inserted yourself, and now make it your issue.
>I can choose to avoid it.
>No one forces me to post on this group. I can avoid that.
Then practice what you're preaching.
>No one forces me to believe what is said about me or to me. I make that
choice.
Ditto.
>I'm finding it harder and harder to hear what you are saying and feeling
>more and more sympathy with those you and your allies attack.
When you use the McCarthy excuse, you're not too crediable yourself.
BTW, folks knew where you stood months ago, Sara. No surprises.
Underground Panther
>
> Tor:
> Assuming I am competent:
>
> I'm finding it harder and harder to hear what you are saying and feeling
> more and more sympathy with those you and your allies attack.
>
Saragale why, If you are begging with this veneer of sypathetic
vengance for Tor to apologize to you or whomever else,Do actually
expect it to look sincere to Tor?.
Why then do you insist on not aknowleging that telling someone to
fuck off and die and to blow thier brains out might be in error in
empathy,respect and personal 'ethics'too?
It's a two way street Saragale.
Tor was insulted most brutally FIRST from looking back,.So be a big
girl and be the first to stop the pettyness.
I challenge you, will you bitch and moan or stop it?youre
choice.Ball's in your court your future answers will reveal your
motives.
It looks to me like a petty finger pointing game.
I,have no pity to give you or the all the persons who keep these
hypocritical sociopath supporting and apoloigist hypocrite lanuage
twisting insicire games going on with the hostility,posing ,sneering
and finger pointing,play acting,on purpose ignorance and dramatic
showman conman crap..
As for 'allies' I am not 'allied' with anyone,There are people I like
here,othrs I do not,Like you yourself demonstrate with the posters you
prefer.,it is no revelation..really.
I speak for me.I get emotional and sometimes don't articulate well but
I am a human being,like you all are Tor and Curio Included. Some
choose to blunt thier humanity for ulterior motives and lose
themselves in it.
We all have desires NOT to be threatened or dehumanized.
Some people here DEFEND dehumanizing acts or words and apologise for
the ones who do it to others.There is no excuse for your choices
people.
You demostrate in your words you write yourself that you are very
concerned who is who's 'ally' on this group.Why?
If Tor did say somthing eqivalent in cruelty content to "fuck off and
die","or blow your brains out,"I wish it to be put out in open display
here.I ask both parties to post,for comparison,and individual personal
judgements to be made,and then the consensus not discussed anymore in
goodguy/badguy style games..And the subject not be a weapon or a tool
useable for anyone anymore to point fingers.
I ask you Tor,come clean,or these abuse apologists will make you if
you have not done so already.
I dare all involved to post the truth and quit concealing twisting and
flashing each other with games , veiled hostility vendetta crap,and
inuendoes.
You all know it's bullshit and petty deep down and you all know
abusing someone with rape,words or additudes hurts and dehumanizes
them
.There is no ethical 'moral'or survival based excuses in life itself
for self gratitous cruelty and dehumanization in an advanced civilized
technological society..Self defense verbally or physically does not
need to be cruel or overkill to be effective.when one goes overboard
and dehumanizes then the other seeks to get back.
To stop this attach vengance,abuse enable stuff you need Responsible
ethical descretion,a lack of arrogance, fearlessness,and self honesty
and genuine integrity about your intents are the things that prevent
this kind of cruelty.Then you earn trust and true respect.
I myself from looking back at his posts,I see no posts from Tor that
match blow for blow that sort of hostile cruelty he recieved with the
FOAD or the Blowing brains posts.
And this guy who posted it,chris,writes the group to ask for an adress
to help a kid in an abuse situation today. I referred him to several
sources I think might help incluuding Karenajones.Because I felt they
all might help the kid(s)honestly ,I saw no 'sin' in including
your'enemy'.If you see it as a 'terrible' choice neglecting all the
other ones or dramatically critizizing them without offering your own,
or a proof of my 'allies' kinda thing,you are insincere from the get
go on helping kids.You show me your real agendas are not with kids or
inproving safety in civilization.
This is all very sick.
I challenge all sides to let it be revealed for whatever it is without
fear distraction or concealment if there is any kind of authenticity
or courage inside you left.
I dare you .
BTW,I feel this post will be carefully ignored by certain people who
never had the intent of coming clean about thier motives.
And I will make notice of who responds and whom doesen't.I think
EVERYONE should IMO. I expect sneers hostility and distraction games.
But I know why and how it is done.I have been there before.
Underground Panther
Larry C. Lyons
erebu...@aol.comTFF-FAN writes:
>You know darn well what you're doing, Dan. These posts you're posting are a
>clear example of excusing abuse.
Weaseling out again Tor, you made an accusation now provide the proof. A
Deja.com reference would be nice.
Larry C. Lyons | email: mailto://sol...@NOSPAMmnsinc.com
| To reply remove the NOSPAM from the above address.
| Home Page: http://www.mnsinc.com/solomon
My opinions alone, no one else will take responsibility for them!
========================================================
Life is Complex. It has both real and imaginary parts.
========================================================
EREBUS1845
>Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:22:03 -0400
>Message-ID: <3772936B...@erols.com>
(Snip)
>Saragale why, If you are begging with this veneer of sypathetic
>vengance for Tor to apologize to you or whomever else,Do actually
>expect it to look sincere to Tor?
It doesn't when...
1). Sara uses the "McCarthy" line. It's about the same as the use of Nazi, on
the Net.
2). When someone is willing to be blind of the obviously wrong remarks, then
come back and critique my words.
3). And her really disconnected posts. Have folks talking more about --why--
she posted in the first place, instead of the content of her posts.
>Why then do you insist on not aknowleging that telling someone to
>fuck off and die and to blow thier brains out might be in error in
>empathy,respect and personal 'ethics'too?
If a person is truly objective they'd ask the questions from both parties, not
leap frog from one person on one side to the next person on that same side.
Sara did that with you Panther, when she earlier said that you're the one in
more need of MH Tx (I find that sad, since folks were wondering about her
remarks, long before you posted), meanwhile trying to plead to me to basically
"shut up." Can't get anymore poignant than using the McCarthy line (which is
being used as the "N" word).
>It's a two way street Saragale.
True.
>Tor was insulted most brutally FIRST from looking back
Nancy started the FOAD, Price and others jumped on the bandwagon. Their thought
is it truly bothers me personally, and it's why they try to ram it home. I'm
more concerned of other Consumers seeing their unethical behaviour and taking
it back with them in their Tx. My "protests" are more about it's not tolerable
behaviour for psychs to behave like this in public, as they give a bad example
of the profession. That's been my statement from day one here. Nothing's
changed, the statement is the same as it was a year ago.
>So be a big
>girl and be the first to stop the pettyness.
>I challenge you, will you bitch and moan or stop it?youre
>choice.Ball's in your court your future answers will reveal your
>motives.
Yes, too many folks here with agendas that they can't believe that some folks
don't have any, but speak from the heart that certain behaviours are across the
board wrong. FOAD and "blow your brains out" cross all boundaries, and shows
that the issuer lost their control. Mature adults without ego problems, would
apologize, and it would end the situation. As you can see, they don't but
demand others to do so.
> It looks to me like a petty finger pointing game.
It is, Panther. One side is always "right," no matter how many folks say
otherwise. Even the Pope web page they discount, when Pope's darn ethical, and
probably the best writer I've seen on the FMSF issue to date.
>I,have no pity to give you or the all the persons who keep these
>hypocritical sociopath supporting and apoloigist hypocrite lanuage
>twisting insicire games going on with the hostility,posing ,sneering
>and finger pointing,play acting,on purpose ignorance and dramatic
>showman conman crap..
So true.
>As for 'allies' I am not 'allied' with anyone,
Which is understandable. Even Curio, CG and I have strong differences on
issues, but we can agree on certain issues and post about them in some form of
union, despite coming from opposite sides. That's not what Price and others
want to see or want others to view on their own. They just want to make like
we're cookie cutter examples of some "witch hunt" conspiracy.
>There are people I like
>here,othrs I do not,Like you yourself demonstrate with the posters you
>prefer.,it is no revelation..really.
It needs not be an "Us vs. Them" mentality. It exists because ("Brad" has it
right) they replace disagreements with getting darn personal. They dislike the
term pedophile supporter when they repeatly support issues in the name of
"science," with studies and views almost straight from NAMBLA and FMSF party
lines. When confronted about this, they pull the "witch hunt" card, stating
it's like restricting their right to practice their religion over others.
Mention their pet projects, and they come out to attack, because they're so
unsure of losing control. They dictate by terror, and distortions. Rauni's
"blood meal" scenerio, and NAMI exploitation are prime examples because they're
so evident.
>I speak for me.I get emotional and sometimes don't articulate well but
>I am a human being,like you all are Tor and Curio Included.
Yes, and some folks don't exploit situations to win sympathy, either. Only a
few even have an idea of what I'm going through today, because I don't try to
use that situation to gain sympathy - although if I did it would make Rauni be
viewed in even more in contempt.
>Some
>choose to blunt thier humanity for ulterior motives and lose
>themselves in it.
Indeed.
>We all have desires NOT to be threatened or dehumanized.
>Some people here DEFEND dehumanizing acts or words and apologise for
>the ones who do it to others.There is no excuse for your choices
>people.
Definately, Panther, but sociopathic folks don't think of anyone but
themselves.
>You demostrate in your words you write yourself that you are very
>concerned who is who's 'ally' on this group.Why?
To do the guilt by association game, Panther. Anyone associated with Curio, is
their enemy. Sara's bought their line hook, line and sinker, and you'll see
Price and his cronies aren't around to give her her "kook" award. ;)
>If Tor did say somthing eqivalent in cruelty content to "fuck off and
>die","or blow your brains out,"I wish it to be put out in open display
>here.
I don't do that crap. If one has a conscience, they wouldn't, and I have a very
strong one no matter how they try to distort the record.
>I ask both parties to post,for comparison,and individual personal
>judgements to be made,and then the consensus not discussed anymore in
>goodguy/badguy style games..And the subject not be a weapon or a tool
>useable for anyone anymore to point fingers.
That's fair. But do they want to be fair?
>I ask you Tor,come clean,or these abuse apologists will make you if
>you have not done so already.
I've been clean from day one, Panther. Everything I said I'll stand on my
record as the truth, even the NAMI material that Rauni distorts. I really have
no reason to lie, this isn't a popularity contest.
>I dare all involved to post the truth and quit concealing twisting and
>flashing each other with games , veiled hostility vendetta crap,and
>inuendoes.
Folks have been asking it for years, and when they come clean it'll be the day
Hell freezes over.
>You all know it's bullshit and petty deep down and you all know
>abusing someone with rape,words or additudes hurts and dehumanizes
>them
>.There is no ethical 'moral'or survival based excuses in life itself
>for self gratitous cruelty and dehumanization in an advanced civilized
>technological society..Self defense verbally or physically does not
>need to be cruel or overkill to be effective.when one goes overboard
>and dehumanizes then the other seeks to get back.
Unlike some here, I have no agenda. I speak from my own experiences. Too "get
back" for me is to post the truth, and expose the abuse so others can get the
truth without being abused themselves.
>To stop this attach vengance,abuse enable stuff you need Responsible
>ethical descretion,a lack of arrogance, fearlessness,and self honesty
>and genuine integrity about your intents are the things that prevent
>this kind of cruelty.Then you earn trust and true respect.
Right.
>I myself from looking back at his posts,I see no posts from Tor that
>match blow for blow that sort of hostile cruelty he recieved with the
>FOAD or the Blowing brains posts.
Actually if you knew me, you'll see a lot of humour in my posts. I'd make jokes
about their FOAD attempts to rile me, but the subject is tacky to post about.
>And this guy who posted it,chris,writes the group to ask for an adress
>to help a kid in an abuse situation today. I referred him to several
>sources I think might help incluuding Karenajones.Because I felt they
>all might help the kid(s)honestly ,I saw no 'sin' in including
>your'enemy'
Ah, Chris an enemy? He's the guy who went around stating he wanted me to die,
Panther!
>If you see it as a 'terrible' choice neglecting all the
>other ones or dramatically critizizing them without offering your own,
>or a proof of my 'allies' kinda thing,you are insincere from the get
>go on helping kids.
I can agree with that.
>ou show me your real agendas are not with kids or
>inproving safety in civilization.
>
>This is all very sick.
So much so they need psychotherapy themselves.
>I challenge all sides to let it be revealed for whatever it is without
>fear distraction or concealment if there is any kind of authenticity
>or courage inside you left.
>I dare you .
I met your dare, Panther. How about the others?
>BTW,I feel this post will be carefully ignored by certain people who
>never had the intent of coming clean about thier motives.
I'll be curious of all the excuses that follow.
>And I will make notice of who responds and whom doesen't.I think
>EVERYONE should IMO.
If folks here would DISCUSS issues instead of personalities it would be nice.
>I expect sneers hostility and distraction games.
So do I. It's almost predictable.
>But I know why and how it is done.I have been there before.
Love your honesty, and coming back to share that there's more to you than just
hypocritical words.
Keep up the good work!
sara...@my-deja.com
I have a responsibility as a person and a mental health consumer to
speak publicly about what you and your zealous cohort are doing. I am
delighted to be disliked by you, by various scientists and by varous
psychotherapists here. You all have more in common than you would
admit. Many (not all of you) are untrustworthy. The issue is
everybody's behavior, not necessarily the contents of the posts. Your
innuendo, smear campaign, insinuations of secret knowledge disgust me.
Your complaints have a little merit, but not much. If you are so
fragile, don't put yourself in the position of being hurt--take a break
from the group. You are as guilty of things equal to anything you are
accusing others of. Do you not have an obligation to treat me gently
because I am a mental health consumer. If I understand correctly my
risk of suicide is astronomical.
I am also the biological daughter of two people with mental illness.
Beging crazy as I called panther is a lot more than just being mentally
ill: it's being a danger to yourself or others and/or being incompetent
and/or doing things to get yourself that way. Unfortunatly I'm not sure
more mental health My parents had little help; the state of the art
was even shittier than it is now and they were often incompetent and
crazy as per above description. I feel pity for them, love for them,
forgiveness, but I also suffered bloody, wild and wierd "abuse" (shall
we call) it from them.
What amazes me is that I can ever trust anyone, but I do. They have to
earn it. What amazes me is that many others are so stupidly trusting of
scientists, professionals and consumers.
This is addressed to you because of the convention of this medium. But
I have not hope or even desire for you to understand it. I am
exercising my responsibility to speak out about the evil you are doing,
even if it may be beyong your control. In which case I offer you my
pity.
Saragale
In article <19990624160349...@ng-cc1.aol.com>,
> >I'm finding it harder and harder to hear what you are saying and
feeling
> >more and more sympathy with those you and your allies attack.
>
> When you use the McCarthy excuse, you're not too crediable yourself.
>
> BTW, folks knew where you stood months ago, Sara. No surprises.
>
> TOR
> Consumer Advocate
>
> --
>
> "Raoul, Raoul, Raoul and the Kings of Spain
> Making it plain, making it sane
> To turn this loss into a gain"
>
> ------Raoul and the Kings of Spain -- 1995 -- Tears For Fears
>
>
sara...@my-deja.com
Underground Panther
>
> >From: Underground Panther <pum...@erols.com>
> >Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:22:03 -0400
> >Message-ID: <3772936B...@erols.com>
>
> (Snip)
> themselves.
distort.A sociopaths life never goes beyond in it's basis even though
they may be intellegent or entertaining, His life is what can he
take,and if they won't give it to him how can he get it and not be
held accountable because of the amorphous"THEY" (insert conveinent
label ,insult,idea or scapgaot to suit thier personal gimmie
gimmie,agenda here) are telling him no "They say they have 'rights' to
not be exploited,dehumanized or used or speak out agaist the things he
likes.. !Those morally inferior 'sheep'!! Well what about his right to
GET what he wants anyway he sees fit in this dog-eat-dog world,even if
innocent,uninvolved,kids adults pets,animals,living thigs,property
that belngs to someone else,someone's emotions ect or vunerable people
not out to get him get crushed under his wants and his insecure
thirst for control and abuses of power,he don't care"They' are just
'stupid' inferior' or weak,(as compared too...),If it doesn't hurt
him,himself or those that help him get stuff,nobody should
complain!!!..wwaaaahhhhhh.(punches someone nearby)
That is a sociopath deep inside for you.They are so disgusting,and
some people who post here if you remove certain
precepts,buzzwords,distractions and intellectual gymnastics ,personal
insults,poses and other such fluff that is exactly what they sound
like,IMO.
>
> Price and his cronies aren't around to give her her "kook" award. ;)
That kook stuff is so cruel.And its bullshit.It's cliquishness in the
most vile sort.Maybe we should start up' a Star sociopath of the
month?' award?? Do you really think they woyuld like thier kook trip
so much,when there is a retaliation....I dunno.
>
> I don't do that crap. If one has a conscience, they wouldn't, and I have a very
> strong one no matter how they try to distort the record.
I do too because I've realized in my emotional resposes I got
hostile,I need to keep it ethical,I really feel really sickened by
some posters but I ain't gonna tell them to "foad" but I will say they
are the sickest most vile assholes I have seen online,next to the
"satanists' whom they are so much like in the way they think it's
sickening.
>
> That's fair. But do they want to be fair?
pay attention to the 'hate game' thread it's very revealing.
> I've been clean from day one, Panther. Everything I said I'll stand on my
> record as the truth, even the NAMI material that Rauni distorts. I really have
> no reason to lie, this isn't a popularity contest.
True It was never a who's the best game. I think when things that are
supposed to be helpful or stop abuse turn into this sort of jockeying
and dehumanizing it is either run by distorted people or it has
ulterior motives and the one upmanship.US/THem stuff is to keep things
chaotic and distracted,I mean getting ppl. it really sure distracts
from uncomfotable subjects like grave robbing, cat murdering,lavayin
questions and sadistic mind games played by sick shrinks,doesen't it?
>
> >I dare all involved to post the truth and quit concealing twisting and
> >flashing each other with games , veiled hostility vendetta crap,and
> >inuendoes.
>
> Folks have been asking it for years, and when they come clean it'll be the day
> Hell freezes over.
They will come clean when it hurts THEM to be that way ,a sociopath
needs a self intrested motivation to stop being an asshole,and giving
them discomfort by making them have to explain thier actions to people
who aren't convinced or easily fooled or distracted is one way,or
stopping them from getting whatever it is they ar hurting ppl to get,
is surefire. That is why it's important for anyone who is dehumanized
to not tolerate it for any reason.
>
> Ah, Chris an enemy? He's the guy who went around stating he wanted me to die,
> Panther!
No Crisa is an asshole for saying that to you,and he as werll as
several others call curio'enemy'.Curio has been very kind,as well as
you to me .
I appreciate your kindness.Others who have not been snide or excusing
or apologising for sadism or pedophiles or cruelty in Magickal
practices,or adding fuel to the finger pointing games I appreciate as
well wether they have spoken to me or not.
>
>
> I'll be curious of all the excuses that follow.
Look at Chris's posts look at 'hate game...and do check to see if the
hate vote thread dies and reappears under a less flaming header...
>
> >And I will make notice of who responds and whom doesen't.I think
> >EVERYONE should IMO.
>
> If folks here would DISCUSS issues instead of personalities it would be nice.
They thrive on this bullshit,ToR it would be not what they WANT,then.
IMO they would be absolutly orgasmic in alt.satanism all those stuipid
pointless games...Certain posters are from there....
>
> >I expect sneers hostility and distraction games.
>
> So do I. It's almost predictable. Hey got a hate vote going already Like I said whatever they may assume abiout me,one thing they PROVE true consisently ,IS they sure REACT to me.How it varies but it is reaction.That means I am hitting nerves and uncovering crap. Well keep on talking about the cesspools that exist in some of these peoples written thoughts and ethics and We'll see what floats and stinks..I mean 'shit disturbing' is there mortal fear. "Shit disturbing" in actuality is asking questions, not settling for pat answers,finding connections and questioning them, pointing out language games, distractions ,ploys,deliberate ignorance ploys,,and inconsistencies and cruelty in the things one says that reflect another hidden agenda than thier front appearances ones that belie their self centred motives..
>
> >But I know why and how it is done.I have been there before.
>
> Love your honesty, and coming back to share that there's more to you than just
> hypocritical words.
Thanks,
>
> Keep up the good work!
will do.I mean somebody's got to pump out the septic tankand clean out
the shit before we all get sick from it backing up stinking it's way
into our justice system..;P
Dr. Mark D. Morin
> Do you not have an obligation to treat me gently because I am a mental
> health consumer.
No.
Nobody here has an obligation or duty to treat you any differently than any
other human being. TOR fell into that same trap thinking that s/he deserved
special treatment because of her/his MH status.
Turning the tables, do any of the professionals here deserve special or
different treatment because of the fact that we are professionals. If we
were to claim such priviledge, it would be slapped down just as quickly as I
am doing to you.
We enter this group as equals. Whatever differences or distinctions are
made are made purely on the substance of what is provided. I have both
"consumers" and professionals in my killfile and I likewise learn from and
appreciate what members of both "camps" have to say.
> If I understand correctly my risk of suicide is astronomical.
Is this supposed to be a not so veiled threat? You have left enough of a
footprint so as to allow the proper authorities to be notified if that is
indeed the case.
mark
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