Military Intelligence
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71.  Harry H Conover  
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 More options Oct 11 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.physics, alt.folklore.urban
Followup-To: sci.physics, alt.folklore.urban
From: cono...@tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Date: 1999/10/11
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence
Jim Carr (j...@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu) wrote:

: In article <7tt9qi$...@news-central.tiac.net>
: cono...@tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
: >
:  ...
: >I purchased it from a military suplus dealer, just as I did my copy
: >of a 'Davy Crockett' tactical nuke technical manual that is also
: >labled 'Restricted'. [This is quite a read.  Picture a tactical
: >nuke that is fired on any enemy position from what is essentially
: >a recoil-less rifle configuration. ...
:
:  That must be some surplus shop you go to.  ;-)

Indeed it was, until they were shut down by by govenment for some
questionable activities of an international nature unrelated to my
post.

If it helps, they were located directly adjacient to the Monroe
County airport in Rochester, New York. For some readers, considering
that the time period involved was 1968-1975, this particular location
may ring some bells.  

For me at the time, this was just another of many surplus junk shops,
although their inventory seemed a bit pecular in that it included things
like half-track vehicles, and many airborne weapon system components,
and although I never actually saw anything close to a gun or missile on
open display there.  Rumor has it that their closing was the result of
some involvement in a military arcraft export schems that involved
refueling stop-overs at the Monroe Country airport before proceeding
overseas by clandestine, fully armed military aircraft. Rumor has it
that 'The Farm' was involved, but who knows.

Rochester had another fantastic surplus dealer, whose facilities were
located in the tunnels beneath the then razed Rochester, NY railway
station.  The place actually had stalactites growing down from the
ceiling, but contained an absolutely amazine variety of project surplus
merchandise from Kodak, Bauch & Lomb, and others.  This was the place
for physicists, and I still own a CVC 3-inch oil diffusion pump and
high-vacuum gate valve that I purchased there for something like $10,
plus a Sorensen 30-amp regulated d.c. power supply for $12!  Touring
the tunnels I recognized the ground reconstructin electronics for
Lunar Orbiter, and even two complete Lunar Orbiter 'Pigs', plus a
collection of optics surplus from various surveilance satelite
programs.  Not fast sellers, but still neat stuff!

Fact is, I consider Rochester, N.Y. to be the surplus capital of the
world -- not that they want this label.  It was a kind of distributed
thing.  For example, Wards held semianual weekend sales of the
microscopes that they had taken in trade from medical schools.
This is where I purchased my B&L turret 100, 480, and 960X microscope
for $15.  They even threw in a kit to make Gram (sp?) positive or
negative bacteria determinations.

I moved from Rochester to the Boston area something like 20 years ago,
and while Rochester was absolutely dead in comparison with Boston, I
stll miss it. (Sadly, Rochester has no ocean front properties or trees,
and Lake Ontario don't quite cut it!)  ;-)

                                           Harry C.


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72.  james d. hunter  
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 More options Oct 11 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.physics, alt.folklore.urban
From: "james d. hunter" <jim.hun...@jhuapl.edu>
Date: 1999/10/11
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence

  I think the main difference between secrets and secret data
  is that people who steal secret data, whether military or civilian,
  have a stronger propensity to show up dead rather than alive.

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73.  james d. hunter  
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 More options Oct 11 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.physics, alt.folklore.urban
From: "james d. hunter" <jim.hun...@jhuapl.edu>
Date: 1999/10/11
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence

   No, I didn't know that "Restricted Data" was actually a legal term.
   I was trying to explain the philosophy of classifications, and
   why they are like that rather than the legalese of it.

 >
 >  I found it interesting that they did not classify some things as
 >  Restricted Data that are covered by the Atomic Energy Act, but that
 >  may be so that they can be revealed to persons who do not otherewise
 >  need the clearance to know Restricted Data.  They only applied that
 >  classification level to the warhead and its production numbers.

    It's hard to say. Classification systems for military and civilian
    manufacturing is a trade off. The facility maintainence and security
    people at military bases usually know just about everything going
on,
    but they also hardly ever have a technical "need to know".

  ---
  Jim


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74.  Jim Carr  
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 More options Oct 12 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.physics, alt.folklore.urban
From: j...@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Date: 1999/10/12
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence

Harry H Conover wrote:
}
} Randy Poe (q...@dgsys.com) wrote:
} :
} : Paul Tomblin wrote:
} : > are "S-RD",
} :
} : Secret - Restricted Data
} : which means nuke.
}
} Yes and no.  It pays never to assume.

 Harry, Paul posted

       http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/alcm_scg.htm

 to answer this "yes-and-no" implied question of yours.

} I'll be honest, although I worked in military weapon and C3I systems
} (mostly classified) for a total of over 15-years, I have absolutely
} no clue what "S-RD" denotes.

In article <38024F5C.E3C90...@jhuapl.edu>

jim.hun...@spam.free.jhuapl.edu. writes:

>  I think the main difference between secrets and secret data
>  is that people who steal secret data, whether military or civilian,
>  have a stronger propensity to show up dead rather than alive.

 Apparently neither of you know that "Restricted Data" and "Formerly
 Restricted Data" are terms defined in US law that describe specific
 categories of information that are classified because they involve
 nuclear weapons in one way or another.  That law includes the 'born
 secret' philosophy that made clever guessing a crime.  In contrast,
 guessing at something that is just plain classified (e.g. Ultra) is
 treated differently.

 I found it interesting that they did not classify some things as
 Restricted Data that are covered by the Atomic Energy Act, but that
 may be so that they can be revealed to persons who do not otherewise
 need the clearance to know Restricted Data.  They only applied that
 classification level to the warhead and its production numbers.

--
 James A. Carr   <j...@scri.fsu.edu>     | Commercial e-mail is _NOT_
    http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/       | desired to this or any address
 Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst.  | that resolves to my account
 Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306    | for any reason at any time.


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75.  Randy Poe  
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 More options Oct 11 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.physics, alt.folklore.urban
From: Randy Poe <q...@dgsys.com>
Date: 1999/10/11
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence

Harry H Conover wrote:

> Randy Poe (q...@dgsys.com) wrote:
> : Paul Tomblin wrote:
> : > Well, maybe I'm wrong about that, or maybe I'm not.  The Security
> : > Classification Guide says that the characteristics of the warhead on an ALCM
> : > are "S-RD",
> :
> : Secret - Restricted Data
> :
> : which means nuke.

> Yes and no.  It pays never to assume.

I'm not assuming. S-RD is Secret - Restricted Data. Jim Carr
has a full explanation of not only RD but FRD (Formerly
Restricted Data). When listing documents in short form,
such as a bibliography, short codes for the security
restrictions are used: U, C, S, TS for Unclassified,
Confidential, Secret and Top Secret. There are also
various special restricted classes, of which RD is one.
You can have a Secret clearance and still not be
cleared for one of these special categories.

That's "special," not to be confused with the word
"Special" with a capital S which has a very, um,
special meaning in this particular bureaucracy.

> I'll be honest, although I worked in military weapon and C3I systems
> (mostly classified) for a total of over 15-years, I have absolutely
> no clue what "S-RD" denotes.

Well, you likely didn't run across any nuclear data. Another
nuke-related stamp is CNWDI (critical nuclear weapons
something).

> Also, I have never heard of "The Security Classification Guide" to which
> Paul refers.

I've never seen a single document called "The Security
Classification Guide", but there were individual Classification
Guides (called DD-9s, IIRC) for separate contracts, which
could be consulted for deciding the classification of
particular pieces of info. Although as contractors, we
technically didn't have the power to make classification
decisions, the practical requirements of day-to-day work
mean that you have to make a reasonable guess so you know
which safe to throw your report in at the end of the day.

> In general, the recognized terms (those whose violation can get you
> convicted of espionage) are Confidential, Secret, Top Secret and some
> SCI unique modifiers that don't detract from the legal significance
> of the first three.

The party line is that "there is nothing higher than Top
Secret." Additional restrictions such as SCI and Crypto
are, according to security folks, just "need to know"
restrictions. Sort of sideways slices of the levels of
classification.

Surely you saw the above-mentioned (U), (C), (S), (TS) on
paragraphs, titles, and in bibliographies. If you are
reading a classified document, practically everything
but the page numbers carries a separate marking.

My favorite, from a table of contents, was something like
"Although every chapter in this document is Unclassified,
the document in its entirety is to be handled as Secret."

> (You see many military tech manuals labeled as
> 'Restricted', yet the term has little legal significance alone.)

You also see FOUO (For Official Use Only) which, I believe,
does carry legal significance.

           - Randy


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76.  Jim Carr  
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 More options Oct 11 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.physics, alt.folklore.urban
From: j...@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Date: 1999/10/11
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence
In a previous article, ehr...@his.com (Edward Rice) said:

}
} In article <7tfmhp$f5...@piper.xcski.com>,
} ptomb...@piper.xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
} >that nuclear cruise missiles add to strategic arms limitation treaties,
} >the warhead on an air launched cruise missle is approximately 120 pounds.
}
} Paul, when we were using Tomahawks and ALCMs against Bosnia (or was it
} Iraq?  or was it Serbia?  or was it Iraq the second time?), the figures
} were published and the poundage is actually pretty high.  I vaguely recall
} that the ALCM warhead was about 200# heavier than a Tomahawk warhead, and
} each was at least an order of magnitude above your "approximately 120
} pounds."

In article <7tq5jq$gc...@piper.xcski.com>

ptomb...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:

>Well, maybe I'm wrong about that, or maybe I'm not.  The Security
>Classification Guide says that the characteristics of the warhead on an ALCM
>are "S-RD", which I presume is something above what I can find on the web.

 Sorry, but claiming you cannot discuss a topic because it is PARD
 after already making an authoriative statement about that topic
 strikes me as rather odd.

 As for the web, you should know about Carey Sublette's wonderful effort
 that is at http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/ and includes such information as
 can be culled from public sources (all documented).  For example, the
 scrapping of the GLCM with the W-84 warhead resulted from the INF treaty,
 which allows the ALCM with the W-80 warhead (model 1) that reportedly
 weighs 290 pounds -- with the same weight (and other properties) on the
 SLCM version now "stored ashore".

 It would not surprise me if the amount of modern high explosive required
 to produce a "1000 pound bomb" is on the order of 290 pounds.

>However, there are "backpack" nukes - the Russians have already admitted that
>they've lost track of several.  So the danger is there.

 A Russian said this.  How reliable his statement is, and whether it
 reflects a bookkeeping problem akin to all the weapons grade Pu that
 is "missing" in the US or is a real problem, remains unknown.  Is there
 an offical Russian government statement on this?

--
 James A. Carr   <j...@scri.fsu.edu>     | Commercial e-mail is _NOT_
    http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/       | desired to this or any address
 Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst.  | that resolves to my account
 Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306    | for any reason at any time.


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77.  Paul Tomblin  
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 More options Oct 11 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.physics, alt.folklore.urban
From: ptomb...@piper.xcski.com (Paul Tomblin)
Date: 1999/10/11
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence
In a previous article, j...@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) said:

>} In article <7tfmhp$f5...@piper.xcski.com>,
>} ptomb...@piper.xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>} >that nuclear cruise missiles add to strategic arms limitation treaties,
>} >the warhead on an air launched cruise missle is approximately 120 pounds.
>In article <7tq5jq$gc...@piper.xcski.com>
>ptomb...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:

>>Well, maybe I'm wrong about that, or maybe I'm not.  The Security
>>Classification Guide says that the characteristics of the warhead on an ALCM
>>are "S-RD", which I presume is something above what I can find on the web.

> Sorry, but claiming you cannot discuss a topic because it is PARD
> after already making an authoriative statement about that topic
> strikes me as rather odd.

Note how you very carefully snipped the first part of that sentence in the
first article, where I said " According to a Scientific American article many
years ago about the problems".  So how is my quoting a barely remembered Sci
Am article "making an authoriative(sic) statement"?  The fact that it's S-RD
means it's not going to be easy for me to authoratively confirm or deny that
figure.

Or are you just an asshole trying to stir up trouble?

--
Paul Tomblin, not speaking for anybody.
SETI@Home:  Finally a *good* way to impress Jodie Foster
http://www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/


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78.  Paul Tomblin  
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 More options Oct 11 1999, 3:00 am
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From: ptomb...@piper.xcski.com (Paul Tomblin)
Date: 1999/10/11
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence
In a previous article, ptomb...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) said:

>In a previous article, j...@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) said:
>>} In article <7tfmhp$f5...@piper.xcski.com>,
>>} ptomb...@piper.xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>>} >that nuclear cruise missiles add to strategic arms limitation treaties,
>>} >the warhead on an air launched cruise missle is approximately 120 pounds.

>Note how you very carefully snipped the first part of that sentence in the
>first article, where I said " According to a Scientific American article many

My apologies, it wasn't you who snipped off the sentence, but somebody before
you in the thread.  But that does illustrate why you should read the ORIGINAL
of a post, rather than somebody else's quoting of it, before flaming the
poster.

--
Paul Tomblin, not speaking for anybody.
SETI@Home:  Finally a *good* way to impress Jodie Foster
http://www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/


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79.  Jim Carr  
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 More options Oct 11 1999, 3:00 am
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From: j...@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Date: 1999/10/11
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence
In a previous article, ptomb...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) said:
:
: In a previous article, j...@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) said:
: >} In article <7tfmhp$f5...@piper.xcski.com>,
: >} ptomb...@piper.xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
: >} >that nuclear cruise missiles add to strategic arms limitation treaties,
: >} >the warhead on an air launched cruise missle is approximately 120 pounds.
:
: Note how you very carefully snipped the first part of that sentence in the
: first article, where I said " According to a Scientific American article many

In article <7tt41o$qa...@piper.xcski.com>

ptomb...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:

>My apologies, it wasn't you who snipped off the sentence, but somebody before
>you in the thread.  But that does illustrate why you should read the ORIGINAL
>of a post, rather than somebody else's quoting of it, before flaming the
>poster.

 No problem, even though a quick check with dejanews at the sequence

   http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=534934757&fmt=text
   http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=535006541&fmt=text

 shows that it was *you* who snipped off the sentence, not the
 person who quoted you.  

 If you had just repeated that you were working from memory of a public
 source and that definitive numbers are probably classified as Restricted
 Data, I would have just pointed out that there are sources available
 that are likely to be more reliable than your memory, or even SciAm.

--
 James A. Carr   <j...@scri.fsu.edu>     | Commercial e-mail is _NOT_
    http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/       | desired to this or any address
 Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst.  | that resolves to my account
 Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306    | for any reason at any time.


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80.  meron  
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 More options Oct 10 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.physics, alt.folklore.urban
From: me...@cars3.uchicago.edu
Date: 1999/10/10
Subject: Re: Military Intelligence

Of course.  These were conventional warheads.  You're not going to
send a cruise missile few hundred miles to deliver 120 pounds of
conventional explosive.  Would've been downright silly.

Mati Meron                      | "When you argue with a fool,
me...@cars.uchicago.edu         |  chances are he is doing just the same"


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