OT: Historical Amnesia (was: Re: *** HILAL (Crescent Moon) SIGHTING - USA/Canada - for RAMADAN (Month of Fasting) 1425 AH, Evening of Thu/Fri 14/15 Oct 2004 CE ***)
Christian Wilms
> Granted the Catholics have their alter boy chasing priests and the
> Mormons have their bizarre cult but at least they don't hijack
> airliners.
Well a look into the history books does bring the crusades to mind. Even
the most militant islamists still have a way to go to bring that amount
of death and suffering to the world.
Granted, this is no excuse for anything just a thought to slow the
finger-pointing.
Besides that I still don't understand why so many people - repeating
rifle being the most predominant here - tend to generalize so much.
"Muslims" are not the same as "islamist terrorists". Sadly some people
just don't appear to be able to grasp that concept - strange considering
that "generalizations" was a grade school subject (at least in NY).
Chris
robert j. kolker
West Coast Engineering wrote:
> OK
>
> The is a GOD. He created everything in the universe. He is all
> powerful, all knowing and all loving.
>
> He made us in his own image and likeness.
Who made the god?
Bob Kolker
robert j. kolker
Repeating Rifle wrote:
> I understand that. But if you cannot tell the difference between venomous
> and non-venomous snakes, you lash out at all serpents.
If all the snakes are killed the bad ones are taken care of.
One of the infellicities of modernn warfare are the collateral
casualties. In WW2 (the Good War) the Allies killed 500,000 civilians in
Europe and at least that many in Japan. It was a necessary evil.
A worker in a war plant is as much a weapon of the enemy as a cannon or
a plane.
In Japan industry was somewhat dispersed into residential areas.
Machinists put lathes in their houses. That makes them legitimate
targets. Too bad the wife and kids life there too. Shit happen.
Bob Kolker
Christian Wilms
Combining the two following paragraphs:
> I'd quibble with your notion of "recent"--Islam dates from ~571, making it
> 1500 years old, versus 2004 for christendom.... not such a broad time gap
> as you imply
> Hmmm.... you seem to have forgotten about the inquisition. It's a
> relatively recent phenomenon that criticizing a Christian church isn't a
> sort path to burning at the stake....
And then doing a bit of math one will notice that the inquisition dates
back to a time at which Christianity was as old as Islam is now ... one
just can't help wondering if religions tend to go through such a phase
at a certain time ... most probably though this is a mere coincidence.
Chris
robert j. kolker
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
>>
>
> Arab culture extends beyond Saudi Arabia.
The culture of Egypt is not Arabic, even though both are Islamic countries.
Bob Kolker
>
>
rander3127
<salm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>in article midbd.41$l55.22@trnddc09, Dr. Mohib. N. Durrani at
>mdur...@verizon.net wrote on 10/13/04 10:08 AM:
>
>> (In the name of ALLAH, THE MOST BENEFICENT, THE MOST MERCIFUL)
>
>Where is the evidence tha Allah is beneficint and/or merciful. Oh, I forgot.
>Beheading is a merciful way to go.
Is that like a slogan I saw:
"Islam, winning the hearts and minds of the world, one bomb
at a time?"
West Coast Engineering
>Repeating Rifle <salm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<BD92D48B.263D3%salm...@sbcglobal.net>...
>> in article midbd.41$l55.22@trnddc09, Dr. Mohib. N. Durrani at
>> mdur...@verizon.net wrote on 10/13/04 10:08 AM:
>>
>> > (In the name of ALLAH, THE MOST BENEFICENT, THE MOST MERCIFUL)
>>
>> Where is the evidence tha Allah is beneficint and/or merciful. Oh, I forgot.
>> Beheading is a merciful way to go.
>
>I find it odd that in this modern era that there are this many
>superstitious people out there. Go figure.
>
>One has to ask why most of the world's maniacs and terrorists are
>Muslims and if the world would be a better place if Allla recalled his
>followers tomorrow.
>
>Granted the Catholics have their alter boy chasing priests and the
>Mormons have their bizarre cult but at least they don't hijack
>airliners.
That cause it's more fun buggering 12 year olds and suicide is not
part of the party.
.
West Coast Engineering <westcoaste...@westcoastengineering.com> says...
I took a look at http://westcoastengineering.com today.
Your HTML sucks! Why don't you get a real HTML editor instead of
composing in Microsoft Word 97 and then letting Netscape have a
whack at it?
Alpha Omega
<mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote
> >
> The Hundred years War
> was, for the most part, just a "state of war", with little significant
> fighting taking place (averaging a battle or two per generation).
Untrue, it was spasmodic, made up of many conflicts separated by periods of
alleged truce.
It also covered a wide area, european-wise, and not all regions were at war
at any given time.
The fighting when it did take place was ferocious and nasty, in the best
tradition.
In addition it saw many innovations in warfare, artillery being one.
Of course there was also this most regrettable affair,
the judicial and widely attended cremation of at least one virgin.
Christian Wilms
> Also, try to remember that the Crusades were responses to the spread of
> Islam by the sword.
If I'm not totally mistaken it was more of a response to the expansion
of several peoples/tribes and factually less religiosly motivatet. The
Vatikan presented the whole thing as a threatening of the holy land by
barbarians in order to provoke enough response from european rulers.
> I'll point a finger you can't slow with a thought; religions in
> general are bloody businesses.
I see that we do share common opinions :-)
> It's valid in that Muslims in general tacitly support their
> extremists by failing to denounce them.
Actually, that impression is partially caused by a blind spot american
and western european media tend to have.
Just to name one example: the reaction of french and italian Muslims to
the kidnapping of french journalists and italien NGO-workers was
amazing. The outcry was loud and well heard.
> So, make it a subject in Islamic schools...
And not just there ...
Chris
.
robert j. kolker <now...@nowhere.net> says...
Come back when you stop talking through your hat.
The name "Kolker" tells us your position on Islam.
Shawn
> Misfiring Smoothbore wrote with urine in the snow:
>
>> Where is the evidence tha Allah is beneficint and/or merciful. Oh, I
>> forgot.
>> Beheading is a merciful way to go.
>>
> see the same lame posts every month after time Dr. Durrani posts his table.
>
> Shawn
Hmm, should've been a "time-less" post. :-P
Shawn
West Coast Engineering
>
>
>Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
>
>>
>> I think a lot of the "Islamist terrorist" thing is an Arab thing, too.
>
>Mohammed Attah who lead the capture of one of the planes from Logan
>Airport in Boston was Egyptian. Several of the Al Quedah operatives are
>(or were) Egyptian. So it is not just an Arab thing.
>
>Bob Kolker
No, it is an asshole thing.
West Coast Engineering
>
>West Coast Engineering <westcoaste...@westcoastengineering.com> says...
>
>>No, it is an asshole thing.
>
>You should know.
You must be a diaper head.
.
West Coast Engineering <westcoaste...@westcoastengineering.com> says...
>All the way to the bottom of the garbage can.
Garbage cans are a subject upon which you are an expert.
ZZBunker
> In article <1gln66a.oivai4ltaz9cN%usen...@out-of-phase.de>,
> Christian Wilms <usen...@out-of-phase.de> wrote:
> >Product developer <jdu...@vorel.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Granted the Catholics have their alter boy chasing priests and the
> >> Mormons have their bizarre cult but at least they don't hijack
> >> airliners.
> >
> >Well a look into the history books does bring the crusades to mind. Even
> >the most militant islamists still have a way to go to bring that amount
> >of death and suffering to the world.
>
> a temporary military success followed by a succession of failures. The
> expanding Islamic Empire was a series of military successes into Eastern
> Europe, North Africa, Spain, Greece, Italy..., only temporarily halted at
> the borders of Byzantium. If the Christians had such success they
> wouldn't have had to settle for Crusades, they would have taken ground
> and held it. Instead they were losing ground until about the time of the
> Renaissance.
>
> >Granted, this is no excuse for anything just a thought to slow the
> >finger-pointing.
> >
> >Besides that I still don't understand why so many people - repeating
> >rifle being the most predominant here - tend to generalize so much.
> >"Muslims" are not the same as "islamist terrorists". Sadly some people
> >just don't appear to be able to grasp that concept - strange considering
> >that "generalizations" was a grade school subject (at least in NY).
>
> individuals from Bible-thumping young Earth creationists to Skeptical
> Inquirer-thumping atheists, but can't comprehend a diversity of Muslim
> beliefs and attitudes that range from Koran-thumping terrorists to
> secularist modernists.
They is obvious though. Since both The Catholic Church,
and the Protestent Eclessiatic Elders generally take it for granted,
that if you are not a Jesuit or an Born-Again Evangelical Christian,
you are either a Mulsem Koran-thumping waste of
God's Eternal Space, a hopeless Jewish Idol Testament Worshipper, or
a Christian in need of sacrificial killing to the
Lamb of G-D.
>
> I think a lot of the "Islamist terrorist" thing is an Arab thing, too.
> (And let's lump the Persians in with that-- it seems Iran is sending
> agents into Iraq to encourage the spread of militant Islam.) That sort of
> thing just doesn't show up as often in Asian countries like Indonesia, or
> Malaysia.
During their entire 5000 year existences, neither
Iran nor Irag, regardless whether it's ancient non-Islamic Persia,
or modern Islamic Persia. have ever sent body anywhere.
Except to the hand-and-foot chopping factory, for the services
of the eternal Psychopathic Druids that Iran and Iraq call Physicians.
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>
>
>Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
>
>>
>> I think a lot of the "Islamist terrorist" thing is an Arab thing, too.
>
>Airport in Boston was Egyptian. Several of the Al Quedah operatives are
>(or were) Egyptian. So it is not just an Arab thing.
>
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
me...@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
Shawn
> West Coast Engineering wrote:
>
>> Europeans are assholes. At least the ones in my family are.
>
>
> ROTLMEuropeanO
Damn, I gotta use my spell checker.
Ahem: ROTFLMEuropeanO
T.T.
"robert j. kolker" <now...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:2t87flF...@uni-berlin.de...
.
West Coast Engineering <westcoaste...@westcoastengineering.com> says...
>[God is] all knowing and all loving.
>
>He made us in his own image and likeness.
Make up your mind. Both statements cannot be true.
Maleki
> But then, critical discourse is
> rather strongly discouraged within Islam,
!!
>
> Write a book making fun of the tenets of any Xtian church today, and
> what happens? You make some money, and the churches go on as if nothing
> happened. But, look what happened to the author of _The Satanic Verses_;
> there's a literal price on his head.
Oh I see now what you mean by "critical discourse."
--
az khar miporseh chAhArshanbe keye.
West Coast Engineering
.
T.T. <ton...@yahoo.com> says...
>God is the offspring of two people who had a really, REALLY big bang.
How would a virgin like you know?
Alpha Omega
> >> Second, not only were the crusades just a brief counterattack, they
> >> were also a small time affair, quite limited in their territorial
> >> scope and in the numbers of people involved. In terms of "amount of
> >> death and suffering" (your words, above), the internal wars fought
> >> (during the millenium mentioned above) either within Christendom or
> >> the Muslim world were incomparably more vicious.
In the context of the <<main event>> of the 12th and 13th centuries, the
Mongol invasions and conquests, the submission of most of Eurasia, the
Crusades were just an interesting but relatively small episode, but
curiously just as the Mongols were about to dispatch the Muslim armies once
and for all (to the greatest glee of the Crusaders) the Mongol expansion ran
out of steam, at least in the Near East.
Baghdad fell to Huleghu, a grand son or nephew of Genghis Khan, and the
Eastern Caliphate abolished in 1258.
Even curiouser was the subsequent gradual conversion of the Mongols
(initially Buddhists, Nestorian Christians and Animists) to Islam, at least
in the Western part of their domain.
So in a way the vanquished managed to subvert their conquerors.
Now what has this got to do with optics?
West Coast Engineering
Hey, that is what the Nuns told me.
West Coast Engineering
OOOOOOH. Sounds like a believer.
Eric
> Misfiring Smoothbore wrote with urine in the snow:
>
>> Where is the evidence tha Allah is beneficint and/or merciful. Oh, I
>> forgot. Beheading is a merciful way to go.
>>
> Can we beat this dead horse maybe once a year? It really is tiring to
> see the same lame posts every month after time Dr. Durrani posts his
> table.
>
> Shawn
Well, for most people its a little disconcerting to see posts that have
little blurbs attempting to promote a Satan worshipping cult like Islam,
so naturally it gets a reaction.
Eric
West Coast Engineering
Gee, guess I offended a true Christian.
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
when they feel that they're beginning to lose their grip. Note that
the time of the inquisition was the time of the Reformation.
Timo Nieminen
> First, the crusades were a relatively brief European counterattack,
> interupting a millenium long period of Muslim aggression.
[cut]
> Second, not only were the crusades just a brief counterattack, they
> were also a small time affair, quite limited in their territorial
> scope and in the numbers of people involved. In terms of "amount of
> death and suffering" (your words, above), the internal wars fought
> (during the millenium mentioned above) either within Christendom or
> the Muslim world were incomparably more vicious.
A lot of these internal wars were also officially crusades. Is suspect
this was a way to tax the church in order to help pay for the war. Sweden
goes to war against Russia - crusade, since the enemy is Orthodox, not
Lutheran. Timur the Lame tried to make all of his wars crusades. Easy
enough when fighting Christians or Hindus, but most of his opponents were
Moslems. IIRC, he managed crusades against both Sunni and Shiite states.
--
Timo Nieminen - Home page: http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/
Shrine to Spirits: http://www.users.bigpond.com/timo_nieminen/spirits.html
.
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu <mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu> says...
>>The Crusades were a lot bigger than you make them out to be.
>>
>No, they were not. Whether you judge by forces involved, scope and
>significance of territories fought over, or long term strategic and
>political impact, the Crusades were a second rate event.
Political impact? The Islamic world is still talking about them.
Forces involved? 80% as big as the mongolian hordes.
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>
>mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu <mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu> says...
>
>>Oh, it was already used in the late stages of the Hundred years war,
>>not at the battlefield yet but in sieges. As such it played a major
>>role by enormously reducing the importance of fortified places.
>
>Sieges? We are talking about gunpowder, not catapults, numbnuts.
>
Of course we're talking about gunpowder. The first significant uses
of artillery were in bringing down walls of castles, no people. In
this application mobility was not an issue and low rate of fire
could've been tolerated.
Which is not to say that artillery wasn't used on the battlefields in
the closing battles of the Hundred year wars. It was. but it was
used in sieges prior to this.
Where exactly did you get the impression that I was talking about
catapults?
.
ZZBunker <zzbu...@netscape.net> says...
> During their entire 5000 year existences, neither
> Iran nor Irag, regardless whether it's ancient non-Islamic Persia,
> or modern Islamic Persia. have ever sent body anywhere.
> Except to the hand-and-foot chopping factory, for the services
> of the eternal Psychopathic Druids that Iran and Iraq call Physicians.
Get your facts straight. They were the world's traders.
.
Repeating Rifle <salm...@sbcglobal.net> says...
>
>> "Muslims" are not the same as "islamist terrorists". Sadly some people
>> just don't appear to be able to grasp that concept - strange considering
>> that "generalizations" was a grade school subject (at least in NY).
>
>and non-venomous snakes, you lash out at all serpents.
I can't tell you from Timothy McVeigh. Is it OK if I lash out at you
rather than learning the difference?
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>
>mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu <mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu> says...
>
>>>
>>No, they were not. Whether you judge by forces involved, scope and
>>significance of territories fought over, or long term strategic and
>>political impact, the Crusades were a second rate event.
>
>Political impact? The Islamic world is still talking about them.
The Islamic world was not talking about them in any serious way for
many hundreds of years.
>
>Forces involved? 80% as big as the mongolian hordes.
>
Eh? Not even close.
Consider that even few hundred year later (when the population of
Europe was larger) the forces involved in the Hundred years war rarely
exceeded 30-40000, and that's when they operated close to their supply
bases. The Crusader armies were typically in the 10-20000 range.
Europeans of that time just didn't have the ability to raise and
supply larger armies than these, in the field.
You may further consider that the territory occupied by the crusaders
never amounted to more than a percent or so of the Muslim territories,
and these was in the periphery, not anywhere close to the Muslim power
centers. Would the crusaders have at their disposal forces anywhere
near those available to the Mongol hordes, they would've penetrated
way deeper (as the Mongols did).
On a comparable scale, if the the Mongols were a stroke or a heart
attack, the crusaders were a common cold.
Repeating Rifle
10/14/04 8:09 PM:
That is unfortunate indeed. When streptococcus bacteria try to avoid the
immune system by imitating heart tissue, you end up getting rheumatic fever.
Fortunately, there are markers on our islamic terrorists that sometimes are
easy to spot by our immune system, Homeland Security. Unfortunately,
Homeland security may cause a figurative rheumatic fever.
Bill
.
.
Alpha Omega <who@where> says...
>In addition it saw many innovations in warfare, artillery being one.
Artillery was a novelty, not really used in war until many years later.
ZZBunker
My fact's are infintely straight. It's known
they were traders, Which is why Caesar crushed their
stupid asses, along with their Eqytian Lion-builder
allies, their Jewish Temple-builder allies, their
Venetian flood-control allies, their Turkish
Marine hosemen allies, their German unground "castle"
allies, their French bridge-to-nowhere allies,
their future British oil-fire allies,
before even giving the idiots a chance to trade
the oil which their extremely sick future communist
friends from Mongolia.
.
robert j. kolker <now...@nowhere.net> says...
>In Japan industry was somewhat dispersed into residential areas.
>Machinists put lathes in their houses. That makes them legitimate
>targets. Too bad the wife and kids life there too. Shit happen.
Pure Urbam Myth. Never happened.
.
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
>
>> Timo Nieminen <ti...@physics.uq.edu.au> writes:
>>
>> > Timur the Lame tried to make all of his wars crusades. Easy
>> >enough when fighting Christians or Hindus, but most of his opponents were
>> >Moslems. IIRC, he managed crusades against both Sunni and Shiite states.
>> >
>> appropriate declaration.
>
>I think the Official Excuses were along the lines of:
>
>"We're going to war against <Sunni enemy> because they what they did to
>Ali ibn Abu Talib, son-in-law of the Prophet"
>
>"We're going to war against <Shiite enemy> because they're heretics"
>
>which, I think, in their contradictions, clearly indicate the depth of his
>piety.
Well, about on par with the Renaisance popes:-)
>
>> And Timur was good about getting people
>> motivated:-)
>
>Certainly, and not just by coercion, either. He was quite popular, and
>lived to an old age. Arthur-like "he will return" stories followed his
>death. However, since his enemies were generally more literate than his
>supporters, he got bad press, most stuff except some modern histories and
>Marlowe being written by those who had good motivation to give him bad
>press.
That's a good point. Helps to have the media on your side in order to
establish a positive legacy.
>
>Wasn't so good about long-term economic management, though. Slash-and-burn
>raiding of neighbours for war booty might work for a while as a substitute
>for taxes, but if often iffy in the long-term.
It is worse than iffy, it is downright counterproductive. That's
destroying your future income base. Can work when you're a small time
raider since in this case it can take a generation before you return
to a previously visited place, by which time new wealth accumulated
there. But if you perform your raiding on a gigantic scale, within a
rather short time there is nothing left to raid. You end up being the
victim of your own success.
> Look at what happened to the Aztecs! Look at what happened to Timur's
>successors!
Yes and yes.
> If Timur hadn't dropped dead on his way to fight the Ming, it might have
>happened to him, too.
Most probably so.
>
>(A good scenario for lead-pushers - Timurid army versus the Ming, who
>happened to be world-leading artillerymen. Not just quantity versus
>quality, but quantity + firepower versus quality.)
>
That could make for a real great storyline.
>(When the Rohirrim arrived at Gondor in Return of the King, they looked
>like a huge crowd. And yet, if the numbers reported to the King of Rohan
>were correct, there were only 6,000 of them (yes, yes, it might be good to
>count them on screen).
Hmm, I should try, at least.
> Perhaps somebody should do a modern movie of the
>life of Timur, and do some of his battles against the Goldern Horde, in
>the biggest of which IIRC Timur fielded about 100,000 against Toktamish's
>120,000. All cavalry. Heavy rain and knee-deep mud.
That must've been a view to behold. 100,000 cavalrymen attacking on
what must've been a multi mile front. Consider a charge, such as the
one of the Rohirrim at Pelennor fields, but with the cavalry line
extending to the horizon in either direction. The view alone could
kill.
> Toktamish is the only
>man I know of who lead armies against Timur three times and lived. His
>position as Khan of the Golden Horde didn't survive the last battle, so he
>went into retirement. Must have been good at choosing fast horses.)
>
Yes, a most plausible hypothesis.
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>
><mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote
>> >
>> The Hundred years War
>> was, for the most part, just a "state of war", with little significant
>> fighting taking place (averaging a battle or two per generation).
>
>Untrue, it was spasmodic, made up of many conflicts separated by periods of
>alleged truce.
Which is same I said above, in different wording.
>It also covered a wide area, european-wise, and not all regions were at war
>at any given time.
Indeed.
>
>The fighting when it did take place was ferocious and nasty, in the best
>tradition.
>
Of course. There was never a tradition of kind and gentle fighting.
Yet, if you observe the total amount of fighting that took place over
upwards of a 100 years, this was, for the most part, a low intensity
conflict. Few major battles, lots of skirmishes, sieges, etc.
>In addition it saw many innovations in warfare, artillery being one.
>
Yes, very important.
>Of course there was also this most regrettable affair,
>the judicial and widely attended cremation of at least one virgin.
>
Well, happens.
.
>In the context of the <<main event>> of the 12th and 13th centuries, the
>Mongol invasions and conquests, the submission of most of Eurasia, the
>Crusades were just an interesting but relatively small episode,
The Crusades were a lot bigger than you make them out to be.
DrPostman
>Sieges? We are talking about gunpowder, not catapults, numbnuts.
You've never heard of a siege using artillery? Check out what
happened at Sevastopol some time. And for a Hundred Years War
equivalent The Siege at Castilon at the end of that war saw 300 siege
cannon and bombards employed:
http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/castilon.htm
And a quote from this page:
http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/ARTICLES/rogers.htm
"This paper will argue that twice over the course of the Hundred
Years' War new developments revolutionized the conduct of war in
Europe, in each case with consequences as significant for the history
of the world as those which took place during Parker's Military
Revolution (1500-1800). The first was the transition outlined in the
paragraph above, which I shall refer to as the "Infantry Revolution."
12 The second, the "Artillery Revolution," occurred when gunpowder
weapons reversed the long-standing superiority of the defensive in
siege warfare. Each of these transformations fundamentally altered the
paradigm of war in Europe, with far-reaching consequences for the
structures of social and political life, and thus each truly deserves
to be termed a "military revolution" in itself."
The same year as the end of the Hundred Years War saw an islamic
army use a 1,200lb cannon ball to breach the walls of Constantinople.
That was in 1453
Now, take your foot out of your mouth and learn to make Google your
friend.
--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors, afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® #15-51506-253.
AFA-B Official Pollster & Hammer of Thor winner - August 2004
You can email me at: DrPostman(at)gmail.com
"Again, think type and _them_ make sure that your babble is understood in
the common ENGLISH language."
-ExcrementOne displays his familiarity with irony
Repeating Rifle
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote on 10/14/04 9:19 PM:
> No, they were not. Whether you judge by forces involved, scope and
> significance of territories fought over, or long term strategic and
> political impact, the Crusades were a second rate event.
>
Most snippersnappers reading this group probably never heard of 'Lil Abner,
a comic strip by Al Capp. Dogpatchers always returned Senator Phogbound back
to Washington because that would keep him out of Dogpatch. The crusaders
were the pope's Phogbounds. He got them out of Europe, and they might even
send bend some loot back from Wash.. I mean Jeruselem.
Bill
Mark Fergerson
> OK
>
> The is a GOD. He created everything in the universe. He is all
> powerful, all knowing and all loving.
>
> He made us in his own image and likeness.
>
> Our main goal in life seems to be to get as much food, sex and money
> as we can possibly get without having another human being kill us, put
> us in prison or give us a fatal sexually transmitted disease but we
> are made in the image of GOD?
Then He's as fucked up as we are, which would explain a lot, no?
> GOD appointed priests, rabbis, mullahs etc to be his personal
> representatives. They know more about GOD than the rest of us do. They
> are smarter than we are. GOD speaks to them and they relay what he
> says to us.
And we know this only because they say so.
> Somehow, GOD never told them how to make money, so we need to provide
> it. GOD is always running out of money. GOD must have failed ECONOMICS
> 101. I remember him. He was the short guy with the wart on his nose in
> the back of the classroom.
Anyone who can create an entire Universe out of thought (not to
mention getting the numerical value of pi wrong _twice_) can't be
bothered to concern Himself with mere bookkeeping.
> Now GOD loves all of us. He set down 10 simple rules for us to live
> by. Problem is, if we don't follow these rules, GOD made a really bad
> place called HELL. It is filled with all the creatures that did not
> follow the 10 rules. In HELL we burn for all eternity, but still, GOD
> loves us.
"Tough love".
> GOD really loves us, and lets us go to the good place if we die for
> him. He made living, breathing creatures and the greatest thing we can
> do for him is die?
Not quite; you must be prepared to kiss His ass eternally afterward.
> Is there something wrong with all this or am I just stupid?
Yes, no, in that order.
Also, you might ask "If God is male, what does He use His penis for?"
Mark L. Fergerson
robert j. kolker
Mark Fergerson wrote:
> Yes, no, in that order.
>
> Also, you might ask "If God is male, what does He use His penis for?"
The Virgin Mary would have a few things to say about that if she were
still around.
The Virgin Mary said "Oh God!" and God asked if it was good for her.
Bob Kolker
Tim Eastham
> OK
>
> The is a GOD. He created everything in the universe. He is all
> powerful, all knowing and all loving.
loving mean?
Malachi 1:2 - "I have loved you," says the Lord.
But you ask: "How have You loved us?"
"Wasn't Esau Jacob's brother?" [This is] the Lord's declaration. "Even
so, I loved Jacob, 3 but I hated Esau. I turned his mountains into a
wasteland, and [gave] his inheritance to the desert jackals."
>
> He made us in his own image and likeness.
>
True.
> Our main goal in life seems to be to get as much food, sex and money
> as we can possibly get without having another human being kill us, put
> us in prison or give us a fatal sexually transmitted disease but we
> are made in the image of GOD?
Got a mouse in your pocket? That is not my goal.
>
> GOD appointed priests, rabbis, mullahs etc to be his personal
> representatives. They know more about GOD than the rest of us do. They
> are smarter than we are. GOD speaks to them and they relay what he
> says to us.
I assume you are not talking about Christians here. You are just
mixing the Old Testament with the New Testament. God did appoint
priests. He never said they know more than us. The descendants of
Aaron were chosen for their faith in God and would care for the altar.
He did speak to them, that is true.
>
> Somehow, GOD never told them how to make money, so we need to provide
> it. GOD is always running out of money. GOD must have failed ECONOMICS
> 101. I remember him. He was the short guy with the wart on his nose in
> the back of the classroom.
Uh, the Fall? We lost our bliss long before the Jews departed from
Egypt.
>
> Now GOD loves all of us.
See above.
>He set down 10 simple rules for us to live
> by. Problem is, if we don't follow these rules, GOD made a really bad
> place called HELL. It is filled with all the creatures that did not
> follow the 10 rules. In HELL we burn for all eternity, but still, GOD
> loves us.
Once again, I assume you are refering to the Old Testament again. By
the way, there are more than just ten rules (your word not mine). In
Jewish society there were three categories of law: Ceremonial law,
Moral law, and Civil law. Hell is filled with people who don't
believe in the great sacrifice of Jesus.
John 3:16 - For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son,
so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal
life.
>
> GOD really loves us, and lets us go to the good place if we die for
> him. He made living, breathing creatures and the greatest thing we can
> do for him is die?
Muslim stuff here I assume.
>
> Is there something wrong with all this or am I just stupid?
Just uninformed and confused I think. It is not uncommon to confuse
the concepts of the Old and New Testament without putting them in
their proper order. Also, it is not hard for the works based religion
of Muslims to throw in some confusion too.
Christ teaches that you cannot follow those 'rules' perfectly. That
we are not capable of being as pure as God. His perfect sacrifice is
what cleanses the believer of shortcomings that they cannot achieve
themselves.
>
> Jim Klein
>
> West Coast Engineering
Good day!
hanson
news:BD94A0AD.2681A%salm...@sbcglobal.net...
> >>> "Muslims" are not the same as "islamist terrorists". Sadly some people
> >>> just don't appear to be able to grasp that concept - strange considering
> >>> that "generalizations" was a grade school subject (at least in NY).
> >>
> >> I understand that. But if you cannot tell the difference between
> >> venomous and non-venomous snakes, you lash out at all serpents.
> >
> > rather than learning the difference?
>
> That is unfortunate indeed. When streptococcus bacteria try to avoid the
> immune system by imitating heart tissue, you end up getting rheumatic fever.
> Fortunately, there are markers on our islamic terrorists that sometimes are
> easy to spot by our immune system, Homeland Security. Unfortunately,
> Homeland security may cause a figurative rheumatic fever.
> Bill
>
Bill, good analogy, man. Even profound in some respects.
You just demonstrated by your example how self-similar
the world, nature, is over vast orders of magnitude, in scale
and in complexity. The Self-similarity concept is a badly
neglected tool in modeling nature, particularly in physics.
Which is why we are stuck in the cul des sac of relativity.........
robert j. kolker
Tim Eastham wrote:
>
> "Wasn't Esau Jacob's brother?" [This is] the Lord's declaration. "Even
> so, I loved Jacob, 3 but I hated Esau. I turned his mountains into a
> wasteland, and [gave] his inheritance to the desert jackals."
First Jacob screws his brother out of the blessing, then God pisses on
the head of poor Esau. What a nice bunch.
Bob Kolker
Mark Fergerson
> Michael <mb...@light-deletedashtodash-houseoptics.com> wrote:
>
> Combining the two following paragraphs:
>
>
>>I'd quibble with your notion of "recent"--Islam dates from ~571, making it
>>1500 years old, versus 2004 for christendom.... not such a broad time gap
>>as you imply
>
>
>>Hmmm.... you seem to have forgotten about the inquisition. It's a
>>relatively recent phenomenon that criticizing a Christian church isn't a
>>sort path to burning at the stake....
>
>
> And then doing a bit of math one will notice that the inquisition dates
> back to a time at which Christianity was as old as Islam is now ... one
> just can't help wondering if religions tend to go through such a phase
> at a certain time ... most probably though this is a mere coincidence.
That was exactly my fucking POINT!
Thank you for "getting it".
Mark L. Fergerson
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
few history books the claim that the crusades main positive
contribution to the development of Europe was keeping a significant
fraction of the knighthood (especially the adventurous hothead ones)
occupied elsewhere.
Repeating Rifle
Lo...@mysig.foremail wrote on 10/15/04 3:31 AM:
> The same year as the end of the Hundred Years War saw an islamic
> army use a 1,200lb cannon ball to breach the walls of Constantinople.
> That was in 1453
I calculate that such a ball, if made out of solid iron would be
approximately 20 inches in diameter. That is a rather prodigous ball, and
the ordinance to fire it would also be prodigious. Manufacturing it would
also be at least job and a half.
Bill
Mark Fergerson
> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:11:18 -0700, Mark Fergerson wrote:
>
>
>>But then, critical discourse is
>>rather strongly discouraged within Islam,
> !!
Yup. Note that this is not an exclusive criticism of Islam; it
applies to any religion at the appropriate stage in its development. If
you disagree, let's critically examine said verses.
>> Write a book making fun of the tenets of any Xtian church today, and
>>what happens? You make some money, and the churches go on as if nothing
>>happened. But, look what happened to the author of _The Satanic Verses_;
>>there's a literal price on his head.
> Oh I see now what you mean by "critical discourse."
Don't go all defensive-reflexive on me. BTW I've finally found a copy
of it (secondhand; I'm cheap) and read it and see why Rushdie is under
death sentence. Fair warning; if you fear the tainting of your faith,
read no farther, because I'm going to tell you some of what I got from it.
Rushdie makes exactly the same kind of critical observations of
several of Islam's foundations that would have earned a Xtian a death
sentence if the latter had written his criticisms during the
Reformation, which is when Xtianity was as old as Islam is now, for the
same reasons.
Granted, said criticisms are not very artfully hidden in a storyline
that reads like a bizarre cross between James Joyce and Dr. Seuss. The
titular ones are historical events cited within the Q'uran itself, and
basically point out the same flaw in Islam that exists within any
religion; when a prophet makes blatantly inaccurate or contradictory
statements allegedly originating from a deity, one must take the
proffered resolution (or lack of one) on faith and not concern oneself
with consistency.
Consistency is not said to be the "hobgoblin of little minds"* for
nothing; it facilitates crowd control (politics) by keeping people from
examining too closely the irrational pronouncements of their leaders.
Hence, anyone who insists on consistency risks overturning the power
base of said leaders and must be suppressed by any means. Ridiculing
such persons is one way, but killing them was always preferred.
* The complete quote is "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of
little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
Ralph Waldo Emerson, in _Self-Reliance_
Note that Ralphie didn't distinguish between "foolish" and "wise"
consistency. He didn't dare.
Mark L. Fergerson
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>with occupying a bunch of populated cities.
>
On the contrary. The Mongol hordes did overran (quite swiftly, too)
the whole Eastern part of the Muslim territory. Including (though not
limited to) Persia and Mesopothamia (today's Iraq). Big, densely
populated, rich territory with some of the biggest cities in the world
(at that time). Millions of square miles, many millions of people.
At the same time, the crusaders were desperately clinging to a narrow
strip of land along the Mediterrenean shore and even taking Damascus
was entirely beyond their reach. As for tackling the main Muslim
centers, such as Bagdad or Cairo, they couldn't even dream about it.
robert j. kolker
Mark Fergerson wrote:
Yup. Note that this is not an exclusive criticism of Islam; it applies
> to any religion at the appropriate stage in its development. If you
> disagree, let's critically examine said verses.
Islam went through an intellectually liberal phase between the 8-th and
12-th century common era. They had there moments of brilliance and they
extinguished them. Now Islam is dark.
Catholicism did not achieve that degree of enlightenment until the
thirteen century common era. Thomas Acquinas combined the best of
Aristotle to the worst of Catholicism to make it less toxic.
Bob Kolker
.
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu <mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu> says...
You are comparing occupying a huge unpopulated arctic wasteland
hanson
news:Pine.LNX.4.50.0410151420240.30840-100000@localhost...
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
>
> > Timo Nieminen <ti...@physics.uq.edu.au> writes:
> >
> > > Timur the Lame tried to make all of his wars crusades. Easy
> > >enough when fighting Christians or Hindus, but most of his opponents were
> > >Moslems. IIRC, he managed crusades against both Sunni and Shiite states.
> > >
> > Hey, all you need is a properly motivated cleric, to issue an
> > appropriate declaration.
>
> I think the Official Excuses were along the lines of:
>
> "We're going to war against <Sunni enemy> because they what they did to
> Ali ibn Abu Talib, son-in-law of the Prophet"
>
> "We're going to war against <Shiite enemy> because they're heretics"
>
> which, I think, in their contradictions, clearly indicate the depth of his
> piety.
>
> > motivated:-)
>
> Certainly, and not just by coercion, either. He was quite popular, and
> lived to an old age. Arthur-like "he will return" stories followed his
> death. However, since his enemies were generally more literate than his
> supporters, he got bad press, most stuff except some modern histories and
> Marlowe being written by those who had good motivation to give him bad
> press.
>
> raiding of neighbours for war booty might work for a while as a substitute
> the Aztecs! Look at what happened to Timur's successors! If Timur hadn't
> dropped dead on his way to fight the Ming, it might have happened to him,
> too.
>
> happened to be world-leading artillerymen. Not just quantity versus
> quality, but quantity + firepower versus quality.)
>
> like a huge crowd. And yet, if the numbers reported to the King of Rohan
> were correct, there were only 6,000 of them (yes, yes, it might be good to
> life of Timur, and do some of his battles against the Goldern Horde, in
> the biggest of which IIRC Timur fielded about 100,000 against Toktamish's
> man I know of who lead armies against Timur three times and lived. His
> position as Khan of the Golden Horde didn't survive the last battle, so he
> went into retirement. Must have been good at choosing fast horses.)
>
> Timo Nieminen - Home page: http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/
> Shrine to Spirits: http://www.users.bigpond.com/timo_nieminen/spirits.html
[hanson]
It is utterly fascinating to follow you two guys' thread in your
total conviction of expression like..'and that's the way it was',
devoid of any doubt.... just as if you had been there....when
in fact you guys simply render opinions on stories that have been
in the "game of charade" for millennia, and retold uncounted
times.........ahahahaha.......
I wonder if this type of mentality, "learning from history", in
your self-assured way, is not the root, or a great part why
"history is repeating itself". One can imagine that by this MO,
Hitler got his idea for the Holocaust, Jews got their inspirations
for the holocaust industry, Evangelicals paying the settlers for
homes on stolen real-estate, Homo-/suicide bombers getting
their incentive. O'Bin Laden finding justification to attack everybody
who doesn't see it his way, and Bush getting his motivation
for going into Iraq, or even on a more civilized level the
"prior case example" issue in legal cases...........Maybe you guys
unknowingly demonstrated why "history repeats itself"
ahahahaha.........ahahahanson
hanson
robert j. kolker
Mark Fergerson wrote:
>
> That was exactly my fucking POINT!
>
> Thank you for "getting it".
You mean we have to wait another five hundred years for Islam to be
properly detoxified? In an age of technology and WMD-s I doubt if we
have the time.
Bob Kolker
robert j. kolker
tj Frazir wrote:
> Islomic scum will learn ,,,but nut without nuking the shit out of them.
> OR the LPE ,,,end the oil age end the problems.
From your lips to God's ear.
Bob Kolker
>
Mark Fergerson
> Mark Fergerson wrote:
One could hope that they might learn from others' examples.
Mark L. Fergerson
Repeating Rifle
now...@nowhere.net wrote on 10/15/04 5:26 PM:
Jacob wrote the book.
Bill
John Savard
wrote, in part:
> One could hope that they might learn from others' examples.
But those *others* aren't Muslims. How can they learn anything from
those who are groping about in darkness, outside the center of
civilization and enlightenment?
Certainly not everyone in the Muslim world feels that way; right now,
though, the bigots have the upper hand, and speaking up against
fanaticism is not safe, in most of the Islamic world.
And where Islamic fanaticism is reined in somewhat, it is usually by
strong dictatorships that also cause problems.
Bright young people in the Islamic world who have interests lying
outside religion end up needing to study abroad. This is an option only
for the rich, and it lands them in the middle of countries where they
are distrusted because of their fanatical brethren.
It's easy to find money in Saudi Arabia for madrassas in Pakistan, but
raising money for real universities in the Islamic world instead seems
to be much harder.
Those who are learning from others' examples have no leverage to
constrain the behavior of those that aren't.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
John Savard
<now...@nowhere.net> wrote, in part:
>You mean we have to wait another five hundred years for Islam to be
>properly detoxified? In an age of technology and WMD-s I doubt if we
>have the time.
That's the tragedy.
We don't have the time...
but on the other hand, since our ancestors of hundreds of years ago were
just as bad, and the social environment of the Islamic world is similar,
it isn't the *fault* of Muslims that so many of them are bigoted against
non-Muslims.
And if we can't _blame_ them for not having the kind of government that
we do, that inculates in children respect for people of different
faiths, so that terrorism is further down the Gaussian tail, how do we
justify the inevitable unpleasantness involved in taking over the reins
of governance for the Islamic world?
In order to survive ourselves, we have to act in ways that will hurt
some other people who are not bad people. It is a good thing that this
is difficult for us to do. If it were easy, we could "justify" far too
much.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
robert j. kolker
Mark Fergerson wrote:
>
> One could hope that they might learn from others' examples.
The Others are the Great Satan. Forget it!
Bob Kolker
robert j. kolker
Repeating Rifle wrote:
> Jacob wrote the book.
Moses.
Bob Kolker
robert j. kolker
John Savard wrote:
> but on the other hand, since our ancestors of hundreds of years ago were
> just as bad, and the social environment of the Islamic world is similar,
> it isn't the *fault* of Muslims that so many of them are bigoted against
> non-Muslims.
Makes no difference. These people are dangerous. The existence of Islam
is incomptable with the existence of the rest of the human race. Either
Islam has to go, or we face a long dark future. The chant of the Muzzein
for the next thousand years. Ugh!
Make no excuses for your enemy nor show him any kindness and mercy for
he will take that as a sign of your weakness.
Bob Kolker
tj Frazir
Your not talking about the civalised world.
50 years ago most of irac SA iran ,,,all a bunch of tribes in the sand.
On oil money they built cities .
50 years latter you forget who the fuck they are and let tribsman have
nukes ..
They are not stable and are not civalized and wount do what the
supperpowers would do.
You go find the poorest darkest gods fearing tribes and hand jungle
tribes nukes ?????
You give the jungle tribes guns money and nukes befor they can read and
they will do what jungle tribes to with wmd.
use it on thier enemy tribes ,,the killers of thier fathers..and to do
Gods comand.
Take manhatten to the amazon on 100,000 ships ,,and give the amazon
tribes Guns missels ,,nukes ,,tanks,,
YOU might then find the chore of going in and taking the shit they have
away from them befor they nuke you.
They are after all ,,tribes..not educated well read people ..
Give your dog a gun and see if the cat dwn the road lives . Put the
wrong thing in the dish and see if the dog shoots you.
Im not calling them dogs ..... sand monkeys maybe ..
Would you think giving a amazon tribe that naver saw a white man guns
would start and endless war in the jungle ??
It shure has.
The people with nukes and wmd over there are tribes 50 years ago.
You better go in and do what must be done.
If you dont ,,the tribes will die to kill you.
They are not like you and you cant reason them into not doing what
tribes do to tribes.
That pit with 100,000 people is10 years old.
Thats not the dark ages ,,thats today tribe wars.
DrPostman
They still have some of the balls from the cannon that fired them
That thing was enormous, especially for it's day and age. It was
twenty-six feet (7.9 m) in length and eight inches (20 cm) in diameter
so you calculated the diameter correctly. One problem though is
that it took over 3 hours to reload and fire. At that rate they were
able to repair any damage done before the next ball hit. A fellow
named Urban from Hungary designed it and they called it the
Basilic.
--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors, afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® #15-51506-253.
AFA-B Official Pollster & Hammer of Thor winner - August 2004
You can email me at: DrPostman(at)gmail.com
"Again, think type and _them_ make sure that your babble is understood in
the common ENGLISH language."
-ExcrementOne displays his familiarity with irony
Larry Huntley
"Is this thing on?" and, in sci.astro, message
news:kb63n0tbeth307pri...@4ax.com, prounounced:
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:55:52 GMT, Repeating Rifle
> <salm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>in article um8vm05rnbfk4gkn7...@4ax.com, DrPostman at
>>Lo...@mysig.foremail wrote on 10/15/04 3:31 AM:
>>
>>> The same year as the end of the Hundred Years War saw an islamic
>>> army use a 1,200lb cannon ball to breach the walls of Constantinople.
>>> That was in 1453
>>
>>I calculate that such a ball, if made out of solid iron would be
>>approximately 20 inches in diameter. That is a rather prodigous ball,
>>and the ordinance to fire it would also be prodigious. Manufacturing it
>>would also be at least job and a half.
>>
>
>
> They still have some of the balls from the cannon that fired them
> That thing was enormous, especially for it's day and age. It was
> twenty-six feet (7.9 m) in length and eight inches (20 cm) in diameter
(30 in., 75 cm; see below)
> so you calculated the diameter correctly. One problem though is
> that it took over 3 hours to reload and fire. At that rate they were
> able to repair any damage done before the next ball hit. A fellow
> named Urban from Hungary designed it and they called it the
> Basilic.
From: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Fall_of_Constantinople
The Ottomans employed a Hungarian engineer called Urban who was a
specialist in the construction of cannons, which were still rela-
tively new weapons. He built an enormous cannon, nearly twenty-seven
feet (more than 8 m) in length and 2.5 feet (about 75 cm) in diameter,
which could fire a 1200 lb (544 kg) ball as far as one mile. It was
dubbed "the Basilic". Although the Byzantines also had cannons, they
were much smaller and their recoil tended to damage their own walls.
Urban's cannon had several drawbacks, however. It could hardly hit
anything, not even as large as Constantinople; it took three hours to
reload; the cannon balls were in very short supply; and the cannon
collapsed under its own recoil after six weeks.
The original Big Fucking Gun.
- L
--
Larry Huntley Beaverton, Oregon
Skep-Ti-Cult® Member #130-978649-969 http://www.skepticult.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
On May 14, 2004, alcha...@yahoo.com (Edmond Wollmann) wrote in
alt.astrology, message
news:35325a08.04051...@posting.google.com:
> Would you like me to yank your internet account now or later?
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:08:29 -0400, "robert j. kolker"
><now...@nowhere.net> wrote, in part:
>
>>properly detoxified? In an age of technology and WMD-s I doubt if we
>>have the time.
>
>
>We don't have the time...
>
>just as bad, and the social environment of the Islamic world is similar,
>it isn't the *fault* of Muslims that so many of them are bigoted against
>non-Muslims.
Indeed. It is not an issue of "fault".
>
>And if we can't _blame_ them for not having the kind of government that
>we do, that inculates in children respect for people of different
>faiths, so that terrorism is further down the Gaussian tail, how do we
>justify the inevitable unpleasantness involved in taking over the reins
>of governance for the Islamic world?
>
By considering the alternatives.
>In order to survive ourselves, we have to act in ways that will hurt
>some other people who are not bad people. It is a good thing that this
>is difficult for us to do. If it were easy, we could "justify" far too
>much.
>
True, very true.
robert j. kolker
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
>
> True, very true.
Conscience doth make cowards of us all. Well almost all. Not me. If
someone put a button in front of me and said "push it and all the
Moslems will dissapear. Men women and children." I would push it in a
New York Minute. No, I would push it even faster.
Bob Kolker
Tom McDonald
You're waiting for a nice, anonymous, guiltless, bloodless
button? Which is unreal, and can't be real? THEN you'd be a hero?
How many Muslim infant girls have you offed today? Last week?
Since 9/11? Show us all your heroism and lack of cowardice
and lack of conscience with real acts, not airy-fairy bullshit.
--
Tom McDonald
http://webpages.charter.net/tsmac/tmcdonald2672/
Thomas Lee Elifritz
"robert j. kolker" wrote:
> Conscience doth make cowards of us all. Well almost all. Not me. If
> someone put a button in front of me and said "push it and all the
> Moslems will dissapear. Men women and children." I would push it in a
> New York Minute. No, I would push it even faster.
That will be much easier than rounding them up, shipping them off to
concentration camps, gassing them all, and then shoving their bodies into
ovens. I'm surprised nobody thought of that earlier.
"the folks back home is a countin' on ya, and by golly, we ain't about to
let 'em down. Tell ya somethin' else - if this button thing turns out to
be half as important as I figure it just might be, I'd say that you're
all in line for some important promotions an' personal citations when
this thing's over with. That goes for every last one of ya, regardless of
your race, color, or your creed."
Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>
>
>mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
>
>>
>> True, very true.
>
No, not necessarily so. Conscience makes us consider possible
consequences of our actions. Reason makes us consider possible
consequences of our inactions, as well. The out of "if I'm not doing
anything, I'm not responsible for anything" is dumb.
There is a big difference between being sorry, at times, for things
you have to do, as opposed to deciding not to do anything you may be
sorry for. The first is maturity, the second is childishness.
Repeating Rifle
Lo...@mysig.foremail wrote on 10/16/04 3:12 PM:
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:55:52 GMT, Repeating Rifle
> <salm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> in article um8vm05rnbfk4gkn7...@4ax.com, DrPostman at
>> Lo...@mysig.foremail wrote on 10/15/04 3:31 AM:
>>
>>> The same year as the end of the Hundred Years War saw an islamic
>>> army use a 1,200lb cannon ball to breach the walls of Constantinople.
>>> That was in 1453
>>
>> I calculate that such a ball, if made out of solid iron would be
>> approximately 20 inches in diameter. That is a rather prodigous ball, and
>> the ordinance to fire it would also be prodigious. Manufacturing it would
>> also be at least job and a half.
>>
>> Bill
>
>
> They still have some of the balls from the cannon that fired them
> That thing was enormous, especially for it's day and age. It was
> twenty-six feet (7.9 m) in length and eight inches (20 cm) in diameter
> so you calculated the diameter correctly. One problem though is
> that it took over 3 hours to reload and fire. At that rate they were
> able to repair any damage done before the next ball hit. A fellow
> named Urban from Hungary designed it and they called it the
> Basilic.
>
I calculated a diameter of 20 INCHES or 51 cm if you wish. I might even be
able to lift a 20 cm ball all by myself.
Bill
Gregory L. Hansen
Including some that I know and care about. I'd rather you didn't push the
button.
--
"The average person, during a single day, deposits in his or her underwear
an amount of fecal bacteria equal to the weight of a quarter of a peanut."
-- Dr. Robert Buckman, Human Wildlife, p119.
hanson
news:2te748F...@uni-berlin.de...
> Conscience doth make cowards of us all. Well almost all.
> Not me. If someone put a button in front of me and said
> "push it and all the Moslems will dissapear. Men women
> and children." I would push it in a New York Minute.
> No, I would push it even faster.
> Bob Kolker
>
.....ahahaha........AHAHAHAHA......ahahaha........
Bob, the ragheads have given you a mindfuck. Galore!....
They are winning the game, dude....they are getting to you
.....in your fantasy and in your dreams......ahahaha.........
But listen, Bob, here's the problem. See, if the same ratio
of them has the same notion as you have then you are in
deep DEEP shit, Bob. ....Deep, deep, Bob.....ahahahaha......
See, there're ~1.3 Billion Muslims but only ~13 million Jews,
Can you see how many, many more button they will push?
.......ahahahaha......
So, sooner or later Bob, the awful choice will confront you,
where faith will present you with its cruel demands, for you
to consider: ...."if you can't beat'em...then JOIN'em"
...it's coming, Bob, it's coming:......AHAHAHA......ahahahaha
** Bob Kolker in a turban, venting his ass 5 times a day**
AHAHAHAHAHA........ahahahaha......ahahahahaha......
But, Bob, look at the bright side: getting blown and fucked
by 72 lovely huris instead of getting yelled at by a mean
and ugly yenta.....ahahahaha....something to consider, Bob!
....after all, wouldn't THAT be a much better choice for you
who claims to have no conscience? Go for it Bob...72...72....
......ahahahaha.....HAHAHAHA...ahahahanson
** Bob Kolker in a turban, venting his ass 5 times a day**
ahahahaha...... WHAT A SIGHT!........AHAHAHAHAHA......
oye weh!
vonroach
>In article <41714137...@news.ecn.ab.ca>, jsa...@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) writes:
>>On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:08:29 -0400, "robert j. kolker"
>><now...@nowhere.net> wrote, in part:
>>
Typical exchange between egghead brain-washed children. Can't imagine
why it is entered here? What mm and rk don't know is that territorial
rights and harmony with neighbors comes from strength, not appeasement
- any time, any place from primordial earth onward. This is a
pragmatic law of natural history.
Mohammed Farooq
"robert j. kolker" <now...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
>> Conscience doth make cowards of us all. Well almost all. Not me. If
>> someone put a button in front of me and said "push it and all the
>> Moslems will dissapear. Men women and children." I would push it in
a
>> New York Minute. No, I would push it even faster.
>
>> Bob Kolker
[hanson]
>......ahahaha........AHAHAHAHA......ahahaha........
>Bob, the ragheads have given you a mindfuck. Galore!....
>They are winning the game, dude....they are getting to you
>......in your fantasy and in your dreams......ahahaha.........
Hanson,
The dimwit has fallen in love with them...this is what I call
infatuation. Can you remind the idiot of the days, when the signs in
the country where he currently lives after being expelled from Eastern
Europe proclaimed "J**s and Dogs not Welcomed."(Source:Encyclopedia
Britannica)?
Not that his ilk his bad, but perhaps Kolker is an example of a black
sheep spoiling the whole flock.
Timo Nieminen
> Timo Nieminen <ti...@physics.uq.edu.au> writes:
> >
> >Wasn't so good about long-term economic management, though. Slash-and-burn
> >raiding of neighbours for war booty might work for a while as a substitute
> >for taxes, but if often iffy in the long-term.
>
> It is worse than iffy, it is downright counterproductive. That's
> destroying your future income base. Can work when you're a small time
> raider since in this case it can take a generation before you return
> to a previously visited place, by which time new wealth accumulated
> there. But if you perform your raiding on a gigantic scale, within a
> rather short time there is nothing left to raid. You end up being the
> victim of your own success.
Just so. Not like he went to attack the Ming just for the fun of it.
Actually, it's worse on more than economic grounds. Running a state on war
booty alone means you can't incorporate defeated enemies into your empire
- you need to leave them independent so they can recover for future
"harvesting". Means you remain surrounded by hostile states.
> > Perhaps somebody should do a modern movie of the
> >life of Timur, and do some of his battles against the Goldern Horde, in
> >the biggest of which IIRC Timur fielded about 100,000 against Toktamish's
> >120,000. All cavalry. Heavy rain and knee-deep mud.
>
> That must've been a view to behold. 100,000 cavalrymen attacking on
> what must've been a multi mile front. Consider a charge, such as the
> one of the Rohirrim at Pelennor fields, but with the cavalry line
> extending to the horizon in either direction. The view alone could
> kill.
Not the largest of medieval battles, but would be spectacular cinema (if
they omit the rain!). Ghengis versus the Kwarezmians, under Shah Mohammed
II was probably much larger. I've seen estimates of the size of the Mongol
army (by this time, mostly Chinese) ranging from 120,000 to 300,000, and
they were significantly outnumbered by the Kwarezmians. For added
cinematographic effect, one would prominently feature the 10,000 Chinese
artillerymen/engineers in action. IMHO, they probably had cannon (if not,
then flamethrowers), certainly catapults.
Bob Cain
@ . wrote:
> mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu <mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu> says...
>
>
>>>The Crusades were a lot bigger than you make them out to be.
>>>
>>
>>No, they were not. Whether you judge by forces involved, scope and
>>significance of territories fought over, or long term strategic and
>>political impact, the Crusades were a second rate event.
>
>
> Political impact? The Islamic world is still talking about them.
That's fairly recent. While they were happening, al Islam
was pretty much oblivious to it. They noticed it about the
way horses notice flys.
Bob
--
"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."
A. Einstein
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
>On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
>
>> Timo Nieminen <ti...@physics.uq.edu.au> writes:
>> >
>> >Wasn't so good about long-term economic management, though. Slash-and-burn
>> >raiding of neighbours for war booty might work for a while as a substitute
>> >for taxes, but if often iffy in the long-term.
>>
>> It is worse than iffy, it is downright counterproductive. That's
>> destroying your future income base. Can work when you're a small time
>> raider since in this case it can take a generation before you return
>> to a previously visited place, by which time new wealth accumulated
>> there. But if you perform your raiding on a gigantic scale, within a
>> rather short time there is nothing left to raid. You end up being the
>> victim of your own success.
>
>Just so. Not like he went to attack the Ming just for the fun of it.
>
>Actually, it's worse on more than economic grounds. Running a state on war
>booty alone means you can't incorporate defeated enemies into your empire
>- you need to leave them independent so they can recover for future
>"harvesting". Means you remain surrounded by hostile states.
Yes, good point too. Thus, indeed, booty based empires were always
transient phenomena. Had to be.
>
>> > Perhaps somebody should do a modern movie of the
>> >life of Timur, and do some of his battles against the Goldern Horde, in
>> >the biggest of which IIRC Timur fielded about 100,000 against Toktamish's
>> >120,000. All cavalry. Heavy rain and knee-deep mud.
>>
>> That must've been a view to behold. 100,000 cavalrymen attacking on
>> what must've been a multi mile front. Consider a charge, such as the
>> one of the Rohirrim at Pelennor fields, but with the cavalry line
>> extending to the horizon in either direction. The view alone could
>> kill.
>
>Not the largest of medieval battles, but would be spectacular cinema (if
>they omit the rain!). Ghengis versus the Kwarezmians, under Shah Mohammed
>II was probably much larger. I've seen estimates of the size of the Mongol
>army (by this time, mostly Chinese) ranging from 120,000 to 300,000, and
>they were significantly outnumbered by the Kwarezmians. For added
>cinematographic effect, one would prominently feature the 10,000 Chinese
>artillerymen/engineers in action. IMHO, they probably had cannon (if not,
>then flamethrowers), certainly catapults.
>
One of the mind boggling aspects of this is the ability of people at
that time to take care of the logistics for armies of that size. The
task of maintaining armies of that size supplied over large distances
and time spans, using nothing more than beasts of burden, is
incredibly difficult.
hanson
news:66756669.04101...@posting.google.com...> >> news:2te748F...@uni-berlin.de...
> >> Conscience doth make cowards of us all. Well almost all. Not me. If
> >> someone put a button in front of me and said "push it and all the
> >> Moslems will dissapear. Men women and children." I would push it in
> >> a New York Minute. No, I would push it even faster.
> >> Bob Kolker
>
> [hanson]
> >......ahahaha........AHAHAHAHA......ahahaha........
> >Bob, the ragheads have given you a mindfuck. Galore!....
> >They are winning the game, dude....they are getting to you
> > But listen, Bob, here's the problem. See, if the same ratio
> > of them has the same notion as you have then you are in
> > deep DEEP shit, Bob. ....Deep, deep, Bob.....ahahahaha......
> > See, there're ~1.3 Billion Muslims but only ~13 million Jews,
> > Can you see how many, many more button they will push?
> .......ahahahaha......
> > So, sooner or later Bob, the awful choice will confront you,
> > where faith will present you with its cruel demands, for you
> > to consider: ...."if you can't beat'em...then JOIN'em"
> > ...it's coming, Bob, it's coming:......AHAHAHA......ahahahaha
> > ** Bob Kolker in a turban, venting his ass 5 times a day**
> > AHAHAHAHAHA........ahahahaha......ahahahahaha......
> > But, Bob, look at the bright side: getting blown and fucked
> > by 72 lovely huris instead of getting yelled at by a mean
> > and ugly yenta.....ahahahaha....something to consider, Bob!
> > ....after all, wouldn't THAT be a much better choice for you
> > who claims to have no conscience? Go for it Bob...72...72....
> >
> >
> > ahahahaha...... WHAT A SIGHT!........AHAHAHAHAHA......
> > oye weh!
>
[Farooq to (1)]
> Hanson,
> The dimwit [Kolker] has fallen in love with them...this is what I call
> infatuation. Can you remind the idiot of the days, when the signs in
> the country where he currently lives after being expelled from Eastern
> Europe proclaimed "J**s and Dogs not Welcomed."
> (Source:Encyclopedia Britannica)?
> Not that his ilk his bad, but perhaps Kolker is an example of a black
> sheep spoiling the whole flock.
>
ahahahaha........now, that is almost as funny as Kolker's rant.
Obviously, Farooq, your post shows that you don't have much
more love for Kolker's folks then they have for yours.....ahahahaha...
as is seen in your revealing comments of "his ilk" and you writing
"J**s" instead of "Jews"......ahahahahaha......AHAHAHAHA..........
But Farooq, don't kid yourself, any "what was back then" won't
impress Bob, for in his ancestral Germany they have a proverb
that says: "Für das Gewesene gibt der Jude nichts"....
So, why should a small event like "expelling" or a sign that says
"J**s and Dogs not Welcomed.", way back when, bug grandpa Kolker?
There is "no reminding him" necessary. Bob knows & he don't care.
Bob knows that since ever God has chosen them, their neighbors or
host countries have chosen them at least 35 times for periodic and
epic expulsions and barbequing of their collective ass.
I wonder, if or how many of these events got started by the Bob's
amongst them who sang such inflammatory shit, like Bob does, and
created by/with and thru' it the necessary Anti-Semitism that lead
to such events and invited encores.
However to be fair, let us ask the larger question. How many times
did the Muslims and the Xians choose each other? I bet there won't
be much of a difference. The only discernable difference is that the
Jews are so loud about and draw attention to themselves.
So, basically, God shows that ALL organized religion is EVIL in that
*** there is only one scene and that is obscene, of which
*** there is only one version and that is perversion,
as is written in the stars & carved in every line of our palms that its
*** Heresy, Blasphemy, Sacrilege, Irreverence and Profanity
*** in any convenient sequence, that are the 5 true paths to heaven.
Fuck! yeah!
................ahahahaha......AHAHAHAHA.......ahahahanson
DrPostman
<salm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I should not post when I'm sleepy.
robert j. kolker
Bob Cain wrote:
>
> That's fairly recent. While they were happening, al Islam was pretty
> much oblivious to it. They noticed it about the way horses notice flys.
The Islamic radicals have a 1000 year old grudge against Chrisendom. It
is an active grudge leading to violence on their part. They are
incapable of letting bygones be bygones, hence they are dangerous to the
rest of us.
Bob Kolker
jmfb...@aol.com
"robert j. kolker" <now...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>
>Bob Cain wrote:
>
>>
>> That's fairly recent. While they were happening, al Islam was pretty
>> much oblivious to it. They noticed it about the way horses notice flys.
>
>The Islamic radicals
The radicals of _today_.
> ...have a 1000 year old grudge against Chrisendom.
This is a perfect sales pitch to justify their intent to
destroy western civilization. Nobody will question what
people thought 1000 years ago, including the Christians.
> ..It
>is an active grudge leading to violence on their part.
It is a sales pitch that the ideologues also came to believe to be
true.
> .. They are
>incapable of letting bygones be bygones, hence they are dangerous to the
>rest of us.
Sigh! These killers are creating reasons to kill. Did you know
that the USofA has existed for 500 years because we were killing
Muslims back then? Western civilization haibutally kills Muslim
babies and drinks their blood. There are more very bizarre
reasons to kill non-Arabs.
The Taliban wanted things to go back to how it used to be; except
a comparison show that their interpretation is different from
the way it really was. It seemed that they picked all the
negatives of throughout the history of Islam and ignored
the positives.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
John Savard
<now...@nowhere.net> wrote, in part:
>Make no excuses for your enemy nor show him any kindness and mercy for
>he will take that as a sign of your weakness.
Despite the very poor historical showing of Islam, presumably it is not
the case that all Muslims are our enemies.
Although the liberals are right about that, and it is *even* the case
that not all Sunni and all Shi'a are our enemies, the latter is,
naturally, harder to credit.
Even some Muslims who are willing to live peacefully side-by-side with
non-Muslims generally, of course, view Israel the same way Americans
would a Rhode Island under Russian or Chinese occupation. It will take a
_lot_ of patient explaining to get them to see otherwise.
One cannot talk of stopping people from being Muslims, or even from
being Quran-believing Muslims, for that would be an offence against the
First Amendment, which has decreed that none shall dare to make laws
that exalt one church over another. But to accept that the Islamic world
presents a sufficient danger that its independence must be curtailed,
and the education of its children be closely monitored and controlled,
would seem to be lawful.
After a hundred years of colonial rule, in which the part of the day
students spend on other than legitimate academic subjects is used for
targeted historical studies - learning about the families bereaved by
September 11, 2001, learning about the families in the Balkans whose
firstborn sons were taken for the Janissaries, learning about the
Buddhists in Afghanistan who were murdered for their faith, learning
about Chinese people in Indonesia, learning about the violence in India
leading up to its independence - then, it may be possible to restore
independence to the Islamic world, since by then a majority of its
people would be disposed to be responsible world citizens.
Of course, it hardly takes many terrorists to cause immense damage.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
robert j. kolker
John Savard wrote:
> Despite the very poor historical showing of Islam, presumably it is not
> the case that all Muslims are our enemies.
Since we do control the foreign territories where Moslems reside we are
not in a positition to separate the good ones from the bad ones. The
obvious solution is to kill them all and let Allah sort out the good
from the bad.
In the United States we can expell the foreign born moslems to a
convenient killing field and vet the remaining ones.
>
> Although the liberals are right about that, and it is *even* the case
> that not all Sunni and all Shi'a are our enemies, the latter is,
> naturally, harder to credit.
>
> Even some Muslims who are willing to live peacefully side-by-side with
> non-Muslims generally, of course, view Israel the same way Americans
> would a Rhode Island under Russian or Chinese occupation. It will take a
> _lot_ of patient explaining to get them to see otherwise.
We live in an age of suitcase size A-Bombs and bilogical weapons. Do we
have the time to be patient? I doubt it.
>
> One cannot talk of stopping people from being Muslims, or even from
> being Quran-believing Muslims, for that would be an offence against the
> First Amendment, which has decreed that none shall dare to make laws
> that exalt one church over another. But to accept that the Islamic world
> presents a sufficient danger that its independence must be curtailed,
> and the education of its children be closely monitored and controlled,
> would seem to be lawful.
The first amendment is not a suicide pact. It can be modified.
>
> After a hundred years of colonial rule, in which the part of the day
> students spend on other than legitimate academic subjects is used for
> targeted historical studies - learning about the families bereaved by
> September 11, 2001, learning about the families in the Balkans whose
> firstborn sons were taken for the Janissaries, learning about the
> Buddhists in Afghanistan who were murdered for their faith, learning
> about Chinese people in Indonesia, learning about the violence in India
> leading up to its independence - then, it may be possible to restore
> independence to the Islamic world, since by then a majority of its
> people would be disposed to be responsible world citizens.
Aren't we being optomistic here. It may be possible for angels to fly
out of my ass, but I do not wish to wait to find out.
>
> Of course, it hardly takes many terrorists to cause immense damage.
Precisely. That is why we have to kill them all overseas and herd the
domestic Moslems into controlled areas where they can be watched very
carefully.
We can also take their youngest children to be raised properly and
sterilize the rest. The problem will be completely solved in about 70 years.
Bob Kolker
Tim Eastham
Malachi actually.
hanson
news:2thvc6F...@uni-berlin.de utschland(?) but now having
domicile in the USA... some 60 years later:
[Kolker]
> In the United States we can expell the foreign born moslems to a
> convenient killing field and vet the remaining ones.
In Nazi Germany we can expell the foreign born Jews to a convenient
KZ killing field and vet the remaining ones.
>
[Kolker]
> Precisely. That is why we have to kill them all overseas and
> herd the domestic Moslems into controlled areas where they
> can be watched very carefully.
Precisely. That is why we have to kill them in all of Europe and
herd the domestic Jews into controlled Ghettos where they
>
> We can also take their youngest children to be raised properly
> and sterilize the rest. The problem will be completely solved
> in about 70 years.
We can also take their youngest children to be raised properly
and sterilize the rest. The problem will be completely solved
>
[hanson]
ahahahaha......Bob, you are in great form again this morning.
You, as a Jew, seem to be convinced that Hitler did the right
thing to the Jews and hence Jews should apply the same Nazi
regime tactics and methods to others ... How come?
... or do you simply find joy & value in spawning Anti-Semitism?
BTW, it appears that many Jews in these NG's do agree with your
views, since we never see any posts from any Jew objecting.
Is that because Jews show a collective Stockholm syndrome,
or because they are now just/exactly like the Germans were
during their Nazi period?.....now perhaps called ashkeNazi?
No difference between the two?... Shouldn't there be any?
....ahahahaha......ahahahanson
Dave
how would you have amnesia about something that wasn't history? you
couldn't forget what is in the future, unless like some posters on this
group you are a time traveler.
robert j. kolker
hanson wrote:
> You, as a Jew, seem to be convinced that Hitler did the right
> thing to the Jews and hence Jews should apply the same Nazi
> regime tactics and methods to others ... How come?
No. Hitler did the -wrong- thing. German Jews were not enemies of
Germany. Most of them were ueber patriotic. On the other hand Moslems
really are hostile since they nurture ahd harbor the Jihad Meme. Their
religion is toxic. Latter day pharasiac Judiaism is no longer toxic.
Bob Kolker
faro...@hotmail.com
[Snipped for brevity]
Hanson,
The poor dimwit grandpa Kolker was/is a proven persevere liar, as he is
growing older...his mental state is worsening and getting bitter day by
day, since this is the way he was treated in this world, now he wants
to return the bitterness to the world. Poor guy has nothing better to
do on this Earth except to fall in love with *them* :-)!
faro...@hotmail.com
hanson wrote:
> "robert j. kolker", a resurrection of Joseph Goebbels wrote from
Hanson,
The dimwit granda Kolker was/is a proven persevere liar. As he is
getting older, his mental state is worsening day by day and getting
bitter day by day, since this is the way he was treated by this world
now he wants to return what he received all his life. Poor guy has
nothing to do on this Earth except to fall in love with *them*!
Repeating Rifle
han...@quick.net wrote on 10/18/04 9:14 AM:
> BTW, it appears that many Jews in these NG's do agree with your
> views, since we never see any posts from any Jew objecting.
Were US Jews in the lead bitching to the US Government about etnic cleansing
in Serbia?
Bill
hanson
> hanson wrote:
> > You, as a Jew, seem to be convinced that Hitler did the right
> > thing to the Jews and hence Jews should apply the same Nazi
> > regime tactics and methods to others ... How come?
>
> No. Hitler did the -wrong- thing. German Jews were not enemies of
> Germany. Most of them were ueber patriotic. On the other hand Moslems
> really are hostile since they nurture ahd harbor the Jihad Meme. Their
> religion is toxic. Latter day pharasiac Judiaism is no longer toxic.
> Bob Kolker
>
..........ahahahaha.......AHAHAHAHA........ahahahaha.......
so, this is your white wash now, or your guilt showing? (nawhhh....),
You gotta do better than that, Bob.....you only come across here
like a Goebbels resurrection that evaded trial at Nüremberg, some
60 years too late... or later ......ahahahaha.... here is the issue
we are "trying" now, again.........ahahahaha....
You, as a Jew, seem to be convinced that Hitler did the right
thing to the Jews and hence Jews should apply the same Nazi
regime tactics and methods to others ... How come?
hanson
news:1098121022.9...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Farooq, it looks like Bob was treated exceptionally well in this
world, as seen in his rational, non-ethnic set of posts....ahahahaha..
BTW, are you referring with *them* to Bob's love for Nazis?.... but,...
Hey, Grandpa Kolker-Goebbels,
Is that a fact what Farooq says here?
Is it unreasonable for him to see you this way considering
all he knows about you is your cyber persona?
ahahahaha.......ahahahanson
PS: Bob, celebrate......*these are your 15 seconds of fame*...
Look at all that attention you're getting here.......ahahahaha...