Very cheap solar power
habshi
excerpt and photo on
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view.bg?articleid=1102368
They also say these dishes may revolutionize global energy
production.
“You can stick these things wherever there is a piece of sunlight, and
power a home or an industrial plant,” said Ahrens, who just received
his master’s degree from MIT.
Since January, he’s been working with Ritter, an Olin College student;
Micah Sze, a recent graduate of MIT’s Sloan School of Management;
University of California-Berkeley graduate and Broad Institute
engineer Eva Markiewicz and MIT materials science student Anna
Bershteyn.
Together, they built a 12-foot wide solar panel by piecing together
lightweight aluminum tubes to make the frame. Inside, they arranged a
series of mirrors and then attached a water-filled coil at the bottom
of the frame.
When the frame is properly positioned, the mirrors will direct
concentrated sunlight toward the coil.
As the water heats up, it is converted to steam, and that steam, the
creators say, can be used to generate electricity to heat and cool
homes and power machines.
They now say its design is so simple, it can be built and placed just
about anywhere the sun shines.
“We made it by hand and transported the parts by car or by bike,”
Ritter said.
The crew spent about $5,000 to build the dish, and according to MIT
Sloan School of Management lecturer David Pelly, it is the cheapest
way he’s seen to harness that much sun power.
“I’ve looked for years at a variety of solar approaches, and this is
the cheapest I’ve seen,” he said.
Ahrens, Ritter and the others are now packing up and moving to
California, where they plan to mass-produce the dishes, probably for
less than it cost to build the first one.
Group slams feds for lax oversight of power markets:
+ Group slams feds for lax oversight of power markets
cmcco...@bostonherald.com
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Next Article in Technology Coverage:
Planet’s greenest person won’t be a Boston Celtic
Spaceman
<snipped>
Great, MIT finally figured out solar ovens work and could
have been used to make steam long ago!
But 5 grand for that junky mirror and water boiler setup?
Give me a break!
They got ripped off.
I could have done it for about 500 bucks at most.
LOL
At least they are finally catching up with the rest of the world
a bit now.
:)
--
James M Driscoll Jr
Spaceman
Uncle Al
[snip crap]
> "You can stick these things wherever there is a piece of sunlight, and
> power a home or an industrial plant,"
[snip rest of crap]
100 kW from a "piece of sunlight" (just after the salesman climbs up a
vertical rope into the air and then pulls the rope up after hum).
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/htoo.htm
infinite energy from water - with refereed literature citations.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
charles q
> excerpt and photo onhttp://www.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view.bg?artic...
> (1) Comments | Post / Read Comments
> Next Article in Technology Coverage:
> Planet’s greenest person won’t be a Boston Celtic
Lets not forget harnessing the wind and a;so the waves from the oceans
which have all been proven to be quite succesful
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
>
> excerpt and photo on
> http://www.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view.bg?articleid=1102368
> They also say these dishes may revolutionize global energy
> production.
Who is "they", Micky, Donald, and Goofy?
> ?You can stick these things wherever there is a piece of sunlight, and
> power a home or an industrial plant,? said Ahrens, who just received
> his master?s degree from MIT.
"A piece of sunlight"?
Well, what do you expect from a fresh graduate with no real experience?
> Since January, he?s been working with Ritter, an Olin College student;
> Micah Sze, a recent graduate of MIT?s Sloan School of Management;
> University of California-Berkeley graduate and Broad Institute
> engineer Eva Markiewicz and MIT materials science student Anna
> Bershteyn.
Oh boy, more clueless fresh graduates reinventing the wheel.
> Together, they built a 12-foot wide solar panel by piecing together
> lightweight aluminum tubes to make the frame. Inside, they arranged a
> series of mirrors and then attached a water-filled coil at the bottom
> of the frame.
> When the frame is properly positioned, the mirrors will direct
> concentrated sunlight toward the coil.
> As the water heats up, it is converted to steam, and that steam, the
> creators say, can be used to generate electricity to heat and cool
> homes and power machines.
If they weren't all fresh graduates and had done a little research,
they would have found such things have been around for decades and
is the principal for several power plants around the world.
Of course the real ones are a bit more complex than some tubing
pieced together.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
anal...@hotmail.com
> excerpt and photo onhttp://www.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view.bg?artic...
>
> (1) Comments | Post / Read Comments
> Next Article in Technology Coverage:
> Planet’s greenest person won’t be a Boston Celtic
I don't think their efforts are to be dismissed so lightly:
Even the cost of transporting a solar panel from the place of
manufacture to the place where it would operate would make a
significant difference in the payback period of the power-generation
operation.
You really don't need the best reflector, perfect tracking etc. The
solar collector design has to be optimized for its entire operating
life (it might even make sense to have a pretty flimsy design and
simply sacrifice the collectors to storms etc. and replace them with
fresh ones - the rusting of fasteners, cleaning of the collector
surfaces etc. are all issues that would enter into the design) and
these guys are on the right track.
Spaceman
> I don't think their efforts are to be dismissed so lightly:
>
> Even the cost of transporting a solar panel from the place of
> manufacture to the place where it would operate would make a
> significant difference in the payback period of the power-generation
> operation.
>
> You really don't need the best reflector, perfect tracking etc. The
> solar collector design has to be optimized for its entire operating
> life (it might even make sense to have a pretty flimsy design and
> simply sacrifice the collectors to storms etc. and replace them with
> fresh ones - the rusting of fasteners, cleaning of the collector
> surfaces etc. are all issues that would enter into the design) and
> these guys are on the right track.
It has been done in a much larger scale already,
In fact the people that did it already are already building the second
massive scale version.
It does work of course,
It is sad they are just finding such out now.
cheaper methods may be the better way to do it though so
you may be correct.
habshi
the hydrogen in metal hydrides and ship the oxygen to those who smoke
and suffer from lung disease.
excerpt
The biggest change came when Redmond put solar panels on the roof of
his 1925 bungalow in the suburbs of Washington, which he shares with
his wife, Margaret McGilvray, and the couple's two young sons.
The system, which still allows the family to use energy from the
traditional power grid when the sun is not shining, uses what is known
as net-metering. No electricity is stored in the house. Energy
produced in excess of what is needed is fed back to the power grid,
effectively making the Redmonds' electric meter run backward.
Twelve panels on the roof feed power to a device in the basement
called an inverter.
The solar power system cost $23,000 after a $2,000 tax credit. Redmond
estimates that the system will pay for itself in 10 to 15 years.
"As we know, our power rates are going up." He said "So it probably
will take less because that number is based on what we're paying right
now.
"About 80 percent of our power is used with the solar panels." Redmond
says.
To get that kind of benefit, though, the family greatly cut the amount
of energy they use.
"We've made a real effort to reduce how much electricity we need to
use in the first place, which is much less expensive to do than to
produce energy that you're wasting inside of your home."
The biggest lifestyle change is as low-tech as the solar panels are
high-tech -- the family uses a clothesline to dry its laundry. Take a
closer look at the Redmonds' money-saving strategies »
"It's ok just to simply hang your lines ... and not use your dryer,"
says Redmond, who cut his electric bill by 15 to 20 percent by
ditching the dryer. "That to me would be the very first thing anybody
should do in terms of conserving electricity for their home."
Redmond cooks using a solar oven, a small appliance that uses four
reflectors, to heat food in Redmond's front yard. The device uses only
solar power and leaves no carbon footprint.
Richmond says he can heat food to about 350 degrees in his solar oven,
but the stove's manufacture says it can heat food up to 400 degrees.
On the days when the sun is not shining, the family uses their
traditional oven powered from electricity provided by the power grid.
The family also uses a small array of solar panels to charge iPods and
cell phones. Whenever possible, Redmond runs errands on an electric
bicycle that pulls a small trailer. Every little bit helps keep their
power bill low.
habshi
Faculty members at the University of Delaware have built an
electric car that’s capable of selling back excess stored energy to
utility companies depending on the demands of the electrical grid.
"A car sitting there with a tank of gasoline in it, that’s useless. If
it’s a battery storing a lot of electricity and a big plug that allows
moving power back and forth quickly, then it’s valuable," said Willett
Kempton, who’s been developing the technology, known as V2G (vehicle
to grid), for more than a decade.
It basically puts your car to work while it’s parked, helping to
balance the energy grid. Electrical utilities price electricity based
on demand so during the daytime, for instance, energy costs more than
it does in the middle of the night. Your car would be able to feed
energy back to the grid during the day and then charge itself up at
night. You’d set a minimum charge level (i.e. don’t fall below a 50%
total charge) and then allow any excess to be sold back to your
utility company.
The car itself is currently a modified Toyota Scion. It produces no
emissions and can reach 60 miles per hour in seven seconds with a top
speed of 95 miles per hour. It’s got a range of 120 miles on the
highway or 150 miles in the city and the battery is being tested to
last about five years or 50,000 miles before it needs to be replaced.
habshi
mattress. Its not true . The Hindus did it around 3654 BC.
Now if we could attach rectangular balloons filled with hot air
underneath , they would remain airborne at say 10km high. On top would
be photovoltaic panels and they would have gps to stay in one place.
Energy would be beamed down as infra red rays , anyone crossing them
would feel nothing more than a slight warmth. Some of the energy would
be used to keep the thing afloat and the rest beamed to earth.
guardian.co.uk, Friday July 11 2008
Download mp3
Solar window: 'It's a pretty good solar panel and a pretty good
window'
MIT researcher Jon Mapel has helped develop 'solar concentrators'
which can turn windows into electricity generators
The technique uses transparent dyes to capture, concentrate and
redirect light along the surface of the glass to photovoltaic cells in
the frame, which convert the light into electricity.
The breakthrough means there is a tenfold increase in power output
compared to use of the PV cell alone.
The team at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) believes
the technology could be available within three years.
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> mattress. Its not true . The Hindus did it around 3654 BC.
> Now if we could attach rectangular balloons filled with hot air
> underneath , they would remain airborne at say 10km high. On top would
> be photovoltaic panels and they would have gps to stay in one place.
> Energy would be beamed down as infra red rays , anyone crossing them
> would feel nothing more than a slight warmth. Some of the energy would
> be used to keep the thing afloat and the rest beamed to earth.
First problem:
How do you keep a giant balloon stationary in a 300 knot jet stream?
Second problem:
Habshi is, always has been, and always will be, an idiot.
Uncle Al
>
> It is commonly thought that Arabs invented the flying
> mattress. Its not true . The Hindus did it around 3654 BC.
> Now if we could attach rectangular balloons filled with hot air
> underneath , they would remain airborne at say 10km high. On top would
> be photovoltaic panels and they would have gps to stay in one place.
> Energy would be beamed down as infra red rays , anyone crossing them
> would feel nothing more than a slight warmth. Some of the energy would
> be used to keep the thing afloat and the rest beamed to earth.
Hey fucking stooopid: Physics Today 61(7) 42 (2008)
Box, "PV for the nation". US electrical generation capacity is equal
to 10,000 mi^2 net of crystalline photovoltaic installed in the US
southwest desert with 1 km^3 of battery backup. "Not an impossibly
large amount."
Riiiight. The total area of all fabricated silicon since Christ was
circumcized is less than 1 mi^2.
The Ghost In The Machine
<hab...@anony.com>
wrote
on Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:13:34 GMT
<4877e2a7...@news.clara.net>:
> It is commonly thought that Arabs invented the flying
> mattress. Its not true . The Hindus did it around 3654 BC.
And here I thought it was Angela Lansbury in 1971 in the movie "Bedknobs
and Broomsticks"....
> Now if we could attach rectangular balloons filled with hot air
> underneath ,
Rectangular balloons...?
> they would remain airborne at say 10km high.
No they wouldn't, not without a heat source.
> On top would
> be photovoltaic panels and they would have gps to stay in one place.
GPS doesn't do diddly-squat regarding motive power,
though it might help to indicate where things *are* (and,
by inference, how far they are from where they should be).
What's wrong with a good old-fashioned 10km-long tether?
> Energy would be beamed down as infra red rays , anyone crossing them
> would feel nothing more than a slight warmth. Some of the energy would
> be used to keep the thing afloat and the rest beamed to earth.
Well, I suppose that takes care of the heat source problem.
Of course, there are a fair number of additional issues,
such as rotational stability of the platform (you do
know large, flat things tend to tip over if not properly
supported, right?), the general expense of photovoltaic
panels (about $5/peak watt, though research is continuing;
this is one reason the fluorescing dyes you mention below
are so attractive), the structural rigidity (how big was
this supposed to be again?) and the elementary observation
that we already have about 1250 W/m^2 of power coming into
any point on the Earth for practically free (if not all
that usable or reliable)...what was your point again?
(An earlier proposal suggested huge orbiting
microwave-beaming satellites. These would presumably
be geosynchronous affairs, and would not require any
balloons, rectangular or otherwise. Of course boosting
them into orbit would not be nearly as cheap, though one
might contemplate lunar-based construction facilities with
some sort of solar-powered rail launcher and propellant
for the perigee burn to circularize.
http://www.freemars.org/history/sps.html
is one such proposal.)
>
>
> guardian.co.uk, Friday July 11 2008
> Download mp3
>
> Solar window: 'It's a pretty good solar panel and a pretty good
> window'
> MIT researcher Jon Mapel has helped develop 'solar concentrators'
> which can turn windows into electricity generators
> The technique uses transparent dyes to capture, concentrate and
> redirect light along the surface of the glass to photovoltaic cells in
> the frame, which convert the light into electricity.
>
> The breakthrough means there is a tenfold increase in power output
> compared to use of the PV cell alone.
>
> The team at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) believes
> the technology could be available within three years.
>
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #11823822:
signal(SIGKILL, catchkill);
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
G=EMC^2 Glazier
than to his crucifixion. Go figure Bert
Benj
> You really don't need the best reflector, perfect tracking etc. The
> solar collector design has to be optimized for its entire operating
> life (it might even make sense to have a pretty flimsy design and
> simply sacrifice the collectors to storms etc. and replace them with
> fresh ones - the rusting of fasteners, cleaning of the collector
> surfaces etc. are all issues that would enter into the design) and
> these guys are on the right track.
Right track? Gimme a break! These geniuses at MIT finally invented
the solar hot water heater! Sheesh! You can BUY them for your home
and they don't cost $5000! How about this for their next big
"breakthrough" for the energy crisis: We block some major rivers
backing up the water and then run that water through turbines to make
electricity! Pure genius! Never mind about all fish made extinct
by the dam since they can't spawn. Hey, that theory fits right in
with the current solution of burning food to run our cars! Once
enough people in world starve to death, energy requirements may be
reduced enough that solar power will suddenly become practical!
Moron.
(Uncle Al made me do it!)
Benj
> Uncle-A (of Irvine) I think more people came to Christ;'s circumcision
> than to his crucifixion. Go figure Bert
As the song goes, "nobody knows you when you're down and out!"
Benj
> Box, "PV for the nation". US electrical generation capacity is equal
> to 10,000 mi^2 net of crystalline photovoltaic installed in the US
> southwest desert with 1 km^3 of battery backup. "Not an impossibly
> large amount."
>
> Riiiight. The total area of all fabricated silicon since Christ was
> circumcized is less than 1 mi^2.
Al you're problem is you just don't have any imagination. Habshi is an
"idea man"! Don't worry about silicon crystal, all you need is a few
hundred gallons of that "yet to be invented" PV paint! Oh wait, how
many gallons of paint does it take to cover a square mile? Hope that
paint is REALLY cheap!
BradGuth
The aluminum hydrides are certainly a good idea, though better yet,
use the spare/surplus of O2 for rocket or even automotive fuel, and
let all the smokers die a horrible death without sharing one gram of
that O2 or anything else that would prolong their selfish and
miserable pathetic lives.
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Uncle Al
>
> Uncle-A (of Irvine) I think more people came to Christ;'s circumcision
> than to his crucifixion. Go figure Bert
Hey fucking stooopid: Physics Today 61(7) 42 (2008)
Uncle Al
>
> On Jun 23, 3:51 pm, hab...@anony.com (habshi) wrote:
> > The best way is to use electriticy to split water and store
> > the hydrogen in metal hydrides and ship the oxygen to those who smoke
> > and suffer from lung disease.
> The aluminum hydrides are certainly a good idea,
[snip creato crap]
Hey fucking stooopid - have you ever worked with LiH, alane, AlH4(-),
BH4(-) or HYSTOR alloys? No - you're just fucking stoooopid.
habshi
By Matt McGrath
BBC science correspondent
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7501476.stm
Current solar plants need large mobile mirrors to produce energy
A new way of capturing the energy from the Sun could increase the
power generated by solar panels tenfold, a team of American scientists
has shown.
The new technique involves coating glass with a specific mixture of
transparent dyes which redirect light to photovoltaic cells in the
frame.
The technology, outlined in the journal Science, could be used to
convert glass buildings into vast energy plants.
The technology could be in production within three years, the team
said.
See how new solar panel technology works
"It makes sense to coat the side of [very tall] buildings with these
new panes," Professor Marc Baldo, one of the researchers on the team,
told BBC News. "It's not far fetched at all."
Colour trick
The most advanced attempts to generate large amounts of electricity
via the Sun require the use of a solar concentrator.
These are often bulky mobile mirrors that work by tracking the
progress of the Sun and concentrating its beams on the cell at its
heart.
But there are downsides to this technology: the cells at the centre
have to be constantly cooled, and each concentrator requires a large
amount of space to avoid shadowing its neighbour.
The technology collects and focuses different colours of sunlight
The new technology does away with the need for mirrors and mobility.
The Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) team has found a way
to coat panes of glass or plastic with a mixture of several dyes that
essentially do the same job.
"What we have is a piece of glass, with a very thin layer of paint or
dye on top," explained Professor Baldo.
"The light comes in and hits the dye and which absorbs it and re-emits
the light, but now it's inside the glass so it bounces along there
until it gets to the edge. So you only need to mount the solar cells
around the edge."
The idea was first developed in the 1970s but was abandoned because
much of the light energy was lost en route to the cell.
But using its expertise in optical techniques and a specific mixture
of dyes, the MIT team has found a way to make the light travel much
farther without losing as much energy along the way.
Window future
"When you do this there is a little bit of energy loss with the dye,"
said Professor Baldo.
"The main benefit is with the cost. You use a far smaller amount of
solar cells. For the same area of solar cells, you get much more
electricity."
Existing solar installations could also benefit from the new
concentrator, he said.
"You could take this new kind of glass and put it on top of an
existing solar cell so the cell still generates electricity but this
glass pane with the dye on top captures a certain part of the spectrum
and converts it more efficiently than the solar cell would do on its
own."
The MIT team believes it could improve existing panels by 50%.
In addition, the system is simple to manufacture, requiring little
more than to coat glass or plastic with the combination of dyes. It
could be in production within three years, the researchers believe.
If that becomes a reality, one obvious application, they said, was
converting windows into energy plants.
"The coated glass would let through about 10% of the Sun to light up
the room, and the remainder would be captured and funnelled to the
edges to solar cells to generate electricity," said Professor Baldo.
"It would look like smoked glass because of the dyes."
The Ghost In The Machine
<Uncl...@hate.spam.net>
wrote
on Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:18:37 -0700
<487949DD...@hate.spam.net>:
> BradGuth wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 23, 3:51 pm, hab...@anony.com (habshi) wrote:
>> > The best way is to use electriticy to split water and store
>> > the hydrogen in metal hydrides and ship the oxygen to those who smoke
>> > and suffer from lung disease.
> [snip crap]
>
>> The aluminum hydrides are certainly a good idea,
> [snip creato crap]
>
> Hey fucking stooopid - have you ever worked with LiH, alane, AlH4(-),
> BH4(-) or HYSTOR alloys? No - you're just fucking stoooopid.
>
I do believe he's worked with pizza and beer, though. ;-)
Not sure why he couldn't work with more sophisticated
meals, as I've seen freeze-dried meals allegedly for NASA
astronauts (possibly surplus from a manufacturing run for
the Space Shuttle astronauts, though freeze-drying's been
around for decades).
In any event, there's already a prototype of a
home-baseable water electrolyzer, and another prototype
of a home-baseable fermentation tank for the production
of non-human-consumable alcohol suitable for fuel; both
have been in the news recently but I'd have to dig for
the specifics.
Admittedly, burning coal to make hydrogen with electricity
as an intermediary doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
/dev/signature: No such file or directory
habshi
light material say carbon fibre or plastic and this is the important
point , air is partially or totally evacuated from inside , so that it
floats in the jet stream , small windmills on top would rotate and
make power which is beamed to the earth.
More would be made with the new solar panels and floated just
below the jet stream which is 13km high and beam power. So using the
principle of the airship and steamship , but not using scarce helium ,
just partial vacuum floating power , we could avoid the need to build
huge and expensive wind and solar towers. Processors in these flying
mattresses would use gps to stay in constant place near cities so
avoiding long transmission lines. They could also stand vertical if
needed to get the angle of the rays at 90 degrees.
If one gets a puncture it will just float down to the surface
and stitched and sent back up.
So Jim inspite of all your sceptcism and cruel words , I think
the flying mattresses will solve the world's energy problems for ever
and ever.
I like the idea of a breeze across the swimming pool. How about
using a pool inside the house , to dump heat into it during the day
via a heat pump ?
excerpt
All sold out
KOLKATA: These may not look like conventional homes but are
fitted with all the modern amenities. And a lot more.
The lily pool in front of each house looks pretty but serves a more
serious purpose. The breeze flowing over it cools the house on
entering it through a natural draft circulation process called the
chimney effect.
Installed on its roof are solar panels and solar water heaters, which
will offer inmates electricity as well as provide them with warm water
for a relaxing bath at the end of a tiring day.
Sounds surreal? This is what India’s first solar housing project— Rabi
Rashmi Abasan—at Rajarhat on the outskirts of Kolkata has to offer.
This housing project has a group of 25 houses.
Priced at $100,000 per house, this housing project has already found
its share of takers among the upper end of the social spectrum.
But, S Bhattacharya, director in-charge of West Bengal Renewable
Energy Development Agency (Webreda), told DNA: “Although the buyers
were mainly from Kolkata, there have been considerable enquiries from
outside West Bengal,” underlining the general interest that solar
energy is generating across the country.
These 25 houses will ensure at least 60% of energy savings without
compromising on comfort, said Bhattacharya.
The houses have been funded mainly by private players, with minor
participation from the central and state governments and have come up
on land provided by the West Bengal Housing infrastructure Development
Corp. Webreda has been involved with the technical aspects.
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> light material say carbon fibre or plastic and this is the important
> point , air is partially or totally evacuated from inside , so that it
> floats in the jet stream , small windmills on top would rotate and
> make power which is beamed to the earth.
How do you hold a massive balloon in place in a 400 knot wind?
How massive and heavy do the windmills have to be to withstand
a 400 knot wind?
<snip idiocy>
> I like the idea of a breeze across the swimming pool. How about
> using a pool inside the house , to dump heat into it during the day
> via a heat pump ?
It is called a swamp cooler, it only works in areas of low humidity,
and you can buy them at Walmart.
<snip remaining idiocy>
Still an idiot.
Wanderer
> What if the flying mattresses were made of a very strong and
> light material say carbon fibre or plastic and this is the important
> point , air is partially or totally evacuated from inside , so that it
> floats in the jet stream , small windmills on top would rotate and
> make power which is beamed to the earth.
I have a question for you: who would be sleeping on the flying
mattresses? I vote we send Johnny Maharaj and Pradipshit Parekh as test
pilots(without parachutes).
The Ghost In The Machine
<487a8cc8...@news.clara.net>:
> What if the flying mattresses were made of a very strong and
> light material say carbon fibre or plastic and this is the important
> point , air is partially or totally evacuated from inside , so that it
> floats in the jet stream , small windmills on top would rotate and
> make power which is beamed to the earth.
I get the feeling you've never taken a ride in a hot-air balloon.
There *is* no wind in the basket thereof; the balloon
travels with the wind. Best I can do is a very long
tether, which might work if it's strong and light enough,
and the mattresses are stabilized somehow so the whole
thing doesn't tip over.
> More would be made with the new solar panels and floated just
> below the jet stream which is 13km high and beam power. So using the
> principle of the airship and steamship ,
There are many principles of the airship and steamship, among them:
- bouyancy
- drag versus thrust
- rigidity of the materials used to make the propeller/airscrew
- conductivity of the skin (yes, this is an issue; the Hindenberg
flashed into flame because of a spark in what essentially was
a thin layer of rocket fuel)
- and of course a power source to turn the propeller/airscrew, to
allow for maneuverability.
> but not using scarce helium ,
> just partial vacuum floating power ,
I take it you've never played with an aluminum can in
boiling water, either. The atmosphere crushes the can
nicely, if done right.
I'd guess one pours cold water over the can after it has
been sitting upside-down, mouth open, in a pan of simmering
water, just after the heat is shut off. I'd have to dig.
The cold water of course condenses the steam; it's a race
between the air pressure in the pan pushing the water
back up the can, and the air pressure on the outside of
the can squishing it.
A little Googling coughed up:
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-crush-an-aluminum-can-with-air-pressure-176583/
which has a video on the procedure. Turns out they use
a little bit of water in the can, a butane torch (to boil
the water in the can) and a fish tank.
http://uw.physics.wisc.edu/~wonders/DemoCCan.html
shows another variant (still picture only), using
a larger can.
It would be interesting to calculate the requisite
thickness of aluminum to resist air pressure, though 13km
up it's not quite as bad as 100,000 N/m^2. (Clearly,
it's thicker than that used in a common can. However,
it is possible; a classical experiment (first performed
by Otto von Guericke in 1654) involved a pair of copper
ball halves (12 feet in diameter) and two teams of horses.
Of course the ball was too heavy to float in the air.)
However, it might be worth noting that the pressure
on one's foot, assuming 100 kg mass, 30 cm in length,
and 10 cm wide per foot (0.06 m^2 altogether -- OK,
so I have big feet :-P ), comes to about 16,600 Pascal.
So imagine yourself burdened with 500 kg or 1,100 extra
pounds, then standing on a surface. If that surface can
bear your feet without buckling, and is light enough,
one has a potential balloon material.
If not, well, one hopes for a short fall to a sturdier surface...
> we could avoid the need to build
> huge and expensive wind and solar towers. Processors in these flying
> mattresses would use gps to stay in constant place near cities so
> avoiding long transmission lines.
Um...GPS doesn't do diddly-squit regarding staying in
place; something has to push this balloon thing in the
correct direction. In any event, staying in place would
mean expending more energy than the windmills can extract,
which throws *that* idea out of the proverbial window.
Solar cells, maybe, if they're efficient enough.
> They could also stand vertical if
> needed to get the angle of the rays at 90 degrees.
Well, that's an interesting notion. Just how does one orient this
already unwieldly slab properly?
> If one gets a puncture it will just float down to the surface
> and stitched and sent back up.
I'm not sure "float" is the right word here. If one's
lucky the punctured cell will accelerate to the surface,
crushing whatever is beneath. If one's unlucky the entire
slab will decide to drop on one's head. If one's *real*
unlucky the cell will pop like a balloon, leaving a small
bit of material that will fall on one's head over a wide
area -- or maybe take out adjacent cells as well.
> So Jim inspite of all your sceptcism and cruel words , I think
> the flying mattresses will solve the world's energy problems for ever
> and ever.
Color me doubtful.
>
> I like the idea of a breeze across the swimming pool. How about
> using a pool inside the house , to dump heat into it during the day
> via a heat pump ?
It's been done. I'm not sure precisely where it's
been installed, but the general idea is a conical pit
filled with brine and outfitted with appropriate hosing.
At night, giant heat pump units chill the brine to below
freezing (of fresh water); the ice surface on the top
thickens in response. The brine also gets more briny,
although not enough for the salt to precipitate.
During the day, the heat pumps contine to operate but can't
quite keep up with the needs of the building -- but they
don't have to; the heat of fusion of the ice melting will
keep the brine cold. Heat rejected from the building is
transferred into the brine, warming it; the warm brine
then goes back into the pit, melting the ice.
[snipped excerpt]
This idea looks like it might work reasonably well, too.
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Linux. Because Windows' Blue Screen Of Death is just
way too frightening to novice users.
zzbu...@netscape.net
> excerpt and photo onhttp://www.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view.bg?artic...
>
> They also say these dishes may revolutionize global energy
> production.
>
> “You can stick these things wherever there is a piece of sunlight, and
> power a home or an industrial plant,” said Ahrens, who just received
> his master’s degree from MIT.
>
> Since January, he’s been working with Ritter, an Olin College student;
> Micah Sze, a recent graduate of MIT’s Sloan School of Management;
> University of California-Berkeley graduate and Broad Institute
> engineer Eva Markiewicz and MIT materials science student Anna
> Bershteyn.
>
> Together, they built a 12-foot wide solar panel by piecing together
> lightweight aluminum tubes to make the frame. Inside, they arranged a
> series of mirrors and then attached a water-filled coil at the bottom
> of the frame.
>
> When the frame is properly positioned, the mirrors will direct
> concentrated sunlight toward the coil.
But that's also the main problem with them. You would be
amazed how hot they get in direct summer sun.
So, the main difficulty with them is distributing the heat,
not collecting it. Which is why the better long term solution
is cheap PV Cells, with electronic automatiion. Since they
not only go everywhere on Earth, they also go everywhere in space.
And the other advantage is that aluminum is not as light weight
as people think it is.
habshi
, or could be filled with hydrogen , lets make them say 10m by 10m by
1meter. They would stay above the clouds and beam energy down to us.
The same for extracting energy from the jet streams at 13km high ,
flying mattresses scoop in air at one . Microprocessors would
orientate them the right way all the time.
All this worry about sea levels rising. Even if the whole
Greenland ice cap melted 9m cukm , it just means us digging that
amount of artificial lakes across the world's rivers to retain that
amount of water.
Digging is cheap.
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> , or could be filled with hydrogen , lets make them say 10m by 10m by
> 1meter. They would stay above the clouds and beam energy down to us.
> The same for extracting energy from the jet streams at 13km high ,
> flying mattresses scoop in air at one . Microprocessors would
> orientate them the right way all the time.
What keeps them from being blown around the world in a 400 knot
jet stream.
> Digging is cheap.
If you have lots of wogs who work for nothing.
The Ghost In The Machine
<487d28e...@news.clara.net>:
> The rectangular flying mattresses would be partially evacuated
> , or could be filled with hydrogen ,
Oh goody. Exploding rectangular flying mattresses.
Or have you forgotten the Hindenberg?
Replace with helium and you might have a slight chance of
this actually doing something other than blowing up.
Just to make things interesting: stratospheric lightning is
still being researched but apparently is more common
than we thought.
> lets make them say 10m by 10m by
> 1meter. They would stay above the clouds and beam energy down to us.
Far cheaper to put them down here. At least one company
is already proposing parking lots with roofs made out of
solar cells. Not only do the cars stay relatively cool,
but the energy extracted can be used for various things
(one of them recharging their batteries).
> The same for extracting energy from the jet streams at 13km high ,
> flying mattresses scoop in air at one . Microprocessors would
> orientate them the right way all the time.
Well, fine, they're properly oriented. They're also moving
with the jet stream and able to extract no energy, unless
one uses a tether or other such.
(If one proposes a floating device part of which is in
the jet stream and part of which is not, one gets a rather
nice torque. How does one keep the device from spinning
out of control in that case?)
> All this worry about sea levels rising. Even if the whole
> Greenland ice cap melted 9m cukm , it just means us digging that
> amount of artificial lakes across the world's rivers to retain that
> amount of water.
> Digging is cheap.
Digging may be cheap, certainly, but a lot of people will
be sandbagging instead, if not moving out of the affected
areas of coastal cities entirely.
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #12398234:
void f(char *p) {char *q = strdup(p); strcpy(p,q);}
habshi
rocks 4km down for us to extract for all our needs and its starting in
Iceland.
On one programme Tommorows world , one man heated his swimming pool
by putting iron bars in concrete of the pool floor . During the day
the iron absorbed the heat from above and radiated it back through the
concrete to the water above so that it warmed a lot faster the next
day. Cant we use this concrete idea to heat our houses?
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> rocks 4km down for us to extract for all our needs and its starting in
> Iceland.
It isn't 4 km down in Iceland, which is why it is usefull there.
If you think this is such a great idea, why don't you grab a shovel
and start digging the 4 km hole?
> On one programme Tommorows world , one man heated his swimming pool
> by putting iron bars in concrete of the pool floor . During the day
> the iron absorbed the heat from above and radiated it back through the
> concrete to the water above so that it warmed a lot faster the next
> day. Cant we use this concrete idea to heat our houses?
Iron bars in concrete are called rebar and are already in all
structural concrete.
You are still a babbling idiot.
BradGuth
<ew...@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote:
> In sci.physics, Uncle Al
> <Uncle...@hate.spam.net>
> wrote
> on Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:18:37 -0700
>
> > BradGuth wrote:
>
> >> On Jun 23, 3:51 pm, hab...@anony.com (habshi) wrote:
> >> > The best way is to use electriticy to split water and store
> >> > the hydrogen in metal hydrides and ship the oxygen to those who smoke
> >> > and suffer from lung disease.
> > [snip crap]
>
> >> The aluminum hydrides are certainly a good idea,
> > [snip creato crap]
>
> > Hey fucking stooopid - have you ever worked with LiH, alane, AlH4(-),
> > BH4(-) or HYSTOR alloys? No - you're just fucking stoooopid.
>
> I do believe he's worked with pizza and beer, though. ;-)
> Not sure why he couldn't work with more sophisticated
> meals, as I've seen freeze-dried meals allegedly for NASA
> astronauts (possibly surplus from a manufacturing run for
> the Space Shuttle astronauts, though freeze-drying's been
> around for decades).
>
> In any event, there's already a prototype of a
> home-baseable water electrolyzer, and another prototype
> of a home-baseable fermentation tank for the production
> of non-human-consumable alcohol suitable for fuel; both
> have been in the news recently but I'd have to dig for
> the specifics.
>
> Admittedly, burning coal to make hydrogen with electricity
> as an intermediary doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
It does if you're ENRON or some derivative (aka spin-off) of such,
whereas consuming as much fossil fuel and as fast as possible is their
ultimate goal on behalf of those nuclear energy freaks in charge of
our New World Order, that don't even want to consider using thorium.
BTW, where's our resident of dirt cheap and supposedly green hydrogen
wizard of Oz, William Mook?
BradGuth
Our perpetual geothermal energy as getting pumped up continually by
the 2e20 N/sec of our Selene/moon tidal flexing is by far the ultimate
motherload of potentially clean energy. Of course by then we'll be
pleased as punch at paying $10/gallon of synfuel and counting our
lucky stars if paying only $1/kwhr, no matters what.
G=EMC^2 Glazier
Sun without using energy Thus my solar cells are always in maximum
photons,and produce the greatest DC electric current to charge all my
house batteries,and those out side my house. I am green and green is
good Bert
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
Solar trackers are ancient history and it is impossible to move a
real mass without using any energy.
To always get the maximum energy, you have to track in two directions.
G=EMC^2 Glazier
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> Jim A Sun dial tells time without hands moving. No tick. Bert
Ice cream has no bones.
Jasvinder
I have been going through some of the posts specially the one about
"Jab We Met"
I do empathise with you seeing the way you have had to ward of nasty
comments from these nitwits.
I live in India and enjoy those DVD's and all other legal ones.
But I guess you brought it on yourself when you decided to go and
live with those 1/2 IQ fellows.
On Jun 22, 11:36 am, hab...@anony.com (habshi) wrote:
> excerpt and photo onhttp://www.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view.bg?artic...
> (1) Comments | Post / Read Comments
jmfbahciv
> G=EMC^2 Glazier <herbert...@webtv.net> wrote:
>> Jim A Sun dial tells time without hands moving. No tick. Bert
>
> Ice cream has no bones.
Where did you hear that?
/BAH
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> /BAH
31 Flavors.
I ordered a BBQ rib sundae and was told "Don't you know ice cream got
no bones?".
I thought it was just as relevant as Bert's post.
G=EMC^2 Glazier
have the wit. Nice thinking by you ice cream has no bones to it.
Can we can that quotation for prosperity ? Words of an idiot
Bert
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
habshi
<jasvin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have been going through some of the posts specially the one about
"Jab We Met"<
Jab we met is just about as good and entertaining a Bollywood movie
, the best form of entertainment on the planet , can get . All should
watch it on dvd with english subtitles . You can get it on amazon and
others.
The Ghost In The Machine
<488c51c4...@news.clara.net>:
> On another note , there is apparently enough energy in the
> rocks 4km down for us to extract for all our needs and its starting in
> Iceland.
And the form of that energy is ... ?
There's enough energy in a US nickel (weighing 5 grams)
to satisfy the entire world's current energy needs for
about 3.5 minutes, by completely destroying the nickel.
However, such a scheme is currently rather impractical,
and it is far from clear whether such is ever possible.
> On one programme Tommorows world , one man heated his swimming pool
> by putting iron bars in concrete of the pool floor . During the day
> the iron absorbed the heat from above and radiated it back through the
> concrete to the water above so that it warmed a lot faster the next
> day. Cant we use this concrete idea to heat our houses?
And what does one do when one wishes to go swimming in a
heated pool on a cloudy or rainy day?
Also, the angle is of importance; at 40 degrees latitude
(either north or south), the Sun is 63.5 degrees from the
horizon at high summer at noontime, but only 16.5 degrees
at noontime at winter. There are also issues regarding
the length of time it is out.
(This turns out to have far more relevance than the
variance of the Earth's orbit from 147.6 million km to
152.6 million km. In fact, we're farthest from the Sun
sometime in Northern summer, yet we still get very warm...)
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Windows Vista. Now in nine exciting editions. Try them all!
jmfbahciv
I had a friend who would use that answer, especially to silly
managers' questions :-). When he left to work for another company,
I had the phrase etched into an RP04 platter. He hung it on the
wall of his new office and it started conversations with fellow
workers; so he got acquainted quickly.
I haven't heard anybody say that in a long time. Thanks for the
memories. :-)
/BAH
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> /BAH
Actually the first time I heard it was in a really old sitcom (I want
to say Dick Van Dyke Show, but don't remember) where they were playing
charades and that was the phrase.
habshi
at the swimming pool , when I was not white water rafting- see my post
later this week on soc.culture.indian .
Got this idea . Why not a solar charged head band ?
http://www.omsdive.com/images/l193hood.jpg
it would have rechargbale batteries . Leave it out in the daylihght
all day , and it could give you a couple of hours of light at night.
Marriages could be saved as the overhead lights are shut down and the
insomniac wears this head lamp
ENT doctors use it
www.faromed.de/ENGLISH/STIRNLP/fo-stirnE.htm
Students in the third world could study the two extended hours.
hab...@anony.net
power. In India most people have huge areas of flat roofs they dont
use in the summer except sometimes at night to sleep on.
If water pipes were laid at a slight angle , as the bottom gets
heated the water will rise in the pipes and get even more heated until
it becomes steam at the top and generates electricity or is used for
hot water baths.
Hot water could even be used to grow algae and foods.
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> What about a counter current mechanism to heat water with solar
> power. In India most people have huge areas of flat roofs they dont
> use in the summer except sometimes at night to sleep on.
> If water pipes were laid at a slight angle , as the bottom gets
> heated the water will rise in the pipes and get even more heated until
> it becomes steam at the top and generates electricity or is used for
> hot water baths.
That is called a solar water heater and is common in many places.
http://www.solardirect.com/swh/swh.htm
It takes a big pile of mirrors to get enough energy to make steam and
solar thermal electric generators usually use something other than
water as a working fluid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Two
> Hot water could even be used to grow algae and foods.
Hot water is used to COOK algae and foods.
You are an idiot.
hab...@anony.net
take hot air from the house and have one of these installed at the top
to give unlimited hot water
excerpt
http://www.heatingoil.com/blog/invisible-and-affordable-solar-water-heating-for-your-home1113/
Anyone who doubts the persistence of good old-fashioned American
innovation is advised to consider the Greenbuild International
Conference and Expo, an annual convention showcasing the newest and
most ingenious green tech products made by American hands. This year�s
expo, held in the tremendous Phoenix Convention Center, comprised over
1,800 exhibit booths, making it the largest convention in Greenbuild
history.
According to Treehugger.com, which covered the event, of particular
interest this year was the Greenward Ridge Vent, a nifty piece of
solar-heating equipment that can be fitted to any standard shingled
roof. The Ridge Vent collects solar energy and uses it to heat water;
but it is the thrift with which the vent performs its task that makes
it remarkable. The Ridge Vent collects solar heat trapped in a home�s
attic; the heat flows through the Ridge Vent around PEX plastic tubes,
heating an ethylene-glycol-and-water mixture that is then pumped into
a heat exchanger, preheating the home�s tap and fixture water even
before it gets to the water heater. In other words, the vent
effectively takes wasted energy and puts it to good use: a concept
both simple and ingenious.
Close-up of demonstration Greenward Ridge Vent. (image:
treehugger.com)
It is the Ridge Vent�s innocuous design that makes it so appealing.
Unlike the typical solar collectors, which can make your home look
like a lunar space station, the Ridge Vent is barely noticeable.
That�s not to say you won�t notice its effect. According to Greenward,
�With an average attic temperature of 120 degrees F., the Greenward
Ridge Vent can reduce your energy consumption by just over 12 million
BTUs a year and reduce your CO2 emissions by just over 1,400 pounds
annually.� The fact that heating water by solar energy costs one tenth
as much as heating it by electricity means that you stand to save
considerably on your electric or gas bill
hab...@anony.net
hab...@anony.net
hab...@anony.net
Whoopie; the installation cost payback is still decades.<
Evidence?
hab...@anony.net
photo on
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/8370642.stm
Consumers are also increasingly exploiting the sun's energy in the
home.
Panel power
There has been a steady growth in small-scale electricity production
at home in recent years. In 2008 there was a considerable jump - the
number of people looking to generate their own electricity doubled in
just 12 months.
Traditionally, homes have harnessed power from the sun through
conventional solar panels, but an American company has developed what
it hopes is the next generation of panel power.
SRS Energy has created "sole power" tiles, which are coated with
thin-film flexible photovoltaic cells. The roof tiles are a dark blue
colour to maximise the absorption of sunlight, and will be available
from spring 2010.
The tiles are
Marvin the Martian
> In sci.physics hab...@anony.net wrote:
>> Nano solar cuts energy payback in solar to just one month!!
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4riNlqZHCTQ
>
> Whoopie; the installation cost payback is still decades.
True enough.
> You are still an idiot.
Umm. Depends.
If he believes this b.S., yes.
If he is collecting investment money from idiots he maybe unethical, but
idiots and their money are made for the picking and getting idiots to
throw money at you isn't idiotic at all.
Marvin the Martian
> Also
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCLwk7ObEr0&feature=related
On another note, don't you just love this? People can't read anymore. So
many "news" stories and other information people get from "BoobTube.com"
and other websites that are tailored for the barely literate product of
our public schools.
G=EMC^2 Glazier
melt iron. It could heat boilers to create steam and run generators
Bert
Sam Wormley
Not very practical for boilers, is it, Herb!
hab...@anony.net
excerpt
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/report-solar-electricity-cost-likely-fall-50-in-2009
Although the prices for solar panels and the levelized costs all have
dropped significantly, consumers aren't likely to see the same
reductions in how much they pay for solar power.
The significant pricing decline in solar energy equipment over the
past year � from silicon to cells to solar panels � has played a big
role in the levelized cost reductions. Solar panel manufacturers have
reported anywhere from a 30 percent to 50 percent drop in their
products' pricing. Supply outstripped demand as the recession dimmed
the banks' interest in loaning money to solar power project
developers.
The solar panel pricing decline has tapered off, while demand has
picked up nicely in the third quarter, particularly in Germany, where
generous government subsidies and banks' willingness to invest in
solar power projects are making Germany this year's top market.
In fact, a solar energy industry association in Germany told Reuters
that the country is likely to install between 2.5 to 3 gigawatts of
solar energy systems in 2009, up from a forecasted 2 gigawatts. Market
research firm iSuppli also recently revised its forecast for Germany
installations to 2.5 gigawatts from 1.53 gigawatts.
The German government has reported that the country saw 1.47 gigawatts
of new solar installations from January to September this year (see
Germany Installs 2.34GW, FIT to Decline 9-11%).
G=EMC^2 Glazier
temperature from the Sun. It needs about 50 mirrors focused on the
bottom of the boiler. Secret is the design of the bottom of my boiler.
Sam I know how every thing works and how to improve on it. I am
clever,and very inventive. Sam have a nice Thanksgiving,and eat lots of
MSP. Bert
Sam Wormley
You don't get it, do you, Herb?
The Sun is not a reliable source of energy in the majority of
applications where a boiler is required.
On cannot "magnify the high temperature" from the sun. One can
concentrate the flux with lens or mirror, but one can never quite
duplicate the temperature of the solar surface for losses in the
atmosphere, glass and mirror surface.
Don't forget to make you boiler black Bert.
DanB
> Soon it will be too cheap to meter
Earth to hashbrains.....
ARRESTING NEW THINK TANK STUDY CONCLUDES: NO COMBINATION OF ALTERNATIVE
ENERGY SYSTEMS CAN REPLACE FOSSIL FUELS
Santa Rosa, CA (13. November 2009)
An alarming new study jointly released by two prominent California-based
environmental/economic think tanks, concludes that unrelenting energy
limits, even among alternative energy systems, will make it impossible
for the industrial system to continue operating at its present scale,
beyond the next few decades. The report finds that the current race by
industries and governments to develop new sustainable energy
technologies that can replace ecologically harmful and rapidly depleting
fossil fuel and nuclear technologies, will not prove sufficient, and
that this will require substantial adjustments in many operating
assumptions of modern society.
The new study (“Searching for a Miracle: Net Energy Limits & the Fate of
Industrial Society”) is the first major analysis to utilize the new
research tools of “full life cycle assessment” and “net energy ratios”
(Energy Returned on Energy Invested, EROEI), to compare all currently
proposed future scenarios for how industrial society can face its long
term future.
The report analyzes 18 of the most viable power production alternatives,
from traditional fossil fuels and nuclear, through wind, solar, wave,
geothermal, biomass, et. al. to identify their “net energy” ratios—the
amount of energy that must be invested in them vs. the amount of energy
they will be able to produce---as well as their environmental, social
and geopolitical impacts. It also considers such important factors as
resource and materials supply, resource location, transportation, waste
disposal issues, and others to create a full life cycle picture of each
technology’s impacts.
“Searching for a Miracle” was published by the International Forum on
Globalization (IFG). The content was largely provided by the Post Carbon
Institute, a think tank that works toward a transition to a more
resilient, equitable, and sustainable world.
The principal author of the report is Richard Heinberg, Senior Fellow of
Post Carbon Institute, and the best-selling author of such books as “The
Party’s Over”, ““Peak Everything”, and “Blackout”. The editor of the
project--part of the IFG’s False Solutions program--is San Francisco
author Jerry Mander, who is Founder and Distinguished Fellow of IFG. His
previous popular books on economics and technology include: “Four
Arguments for the Elimination of Television”, “The Case Against the
Global Economy”, and “Alternatives to Globalization”.
Following are a few of the main conclusions of this report:
✦ As the world’s higher-quality fossil fuel reserves rapidly deplete,
no combination of alternative energy sources is likely to be sufficient
to sustain industrial society at its present scale. Energy supply
problems, perhaps severe, are likely during the coming decade, worsening
as primary fuels become scarce and costly. Major adjustments will be
required in industrial production and personal consumption; attention
will need to be paid to stabilizing and reducing population levels over
the long term.
✦ Fossil fuels and high-quality uranium ores are depleting rapidly;
world oil production may already have peaked. Present expectations for
new technological replacements are probably overly optimistic with
regard to ecological sustainability, potential scale of development, and
levels of “net energy” gain—i.e., the amount of energy actually yielded
once energy inputs for the production process have been subtracted.
Technologies such as “carbon capture and sequestration” and “4th
generation” nuclear power remain largely hypothetical and may never be
deployed on a large scale, while the prospects for oil shale, tar sands,
and shale gas have been overstated to varying degrees.
✦ Certain energy production systems suffer from low or negative net
energy gain; these include most biofuels, hydrogen systems, oil shale,
tar sands, and biomass, some of which also present unacceptable
environmental problems (as is also true of conventional fossil fuels and
nuclear power). So far, the best prospects for large-scale production
and net-energy performance remain wind energy and certain forms of
solar, but these still face important limitations due to intermittency
of supply, remoteness of the best resources, materials needed for
large-scale deployment, and scale potential. Tidal and geothermal
power—which can have high net-energy yield but suffer from a low
potential energy production capacity—will prove marginally useful in a
diverse future energy supply mix.
✦ Limits to future energy supply are more dramatic if environmental
impacts are considered— including accelerating climate change, fresh
water scarcity, destruction of food-growing lands, shortages of
minerals, and threats to wildlife habitat.
✦ Given the above, it is necessary to prepare societies for dramatic
shifts in consumption and lifestyle expectations. It will also be
necessary to promote a new ethic of conservation throughout the
industrial world. A sharp reversal of today’s globalization of
commercial activity—inherently wasteful for its transport energy
needs—must be anticipated and facilitated, and government leaders must
encourage a rapid evolution toward economies based on localism
especially for essential needs such as food and energy. The study
remarks that this is not necessarily a negative prospect, as some
research shows that, once basic human needs are met, high material
consumption levels do not correlate with high quality of life.
✦ The emphasis by policy makers on growth as the central goal and
measure of modern economies is no longer practical or viable, as growth
will be limited by both energy shortages and by society’s inability to
continue venting energy production and consumption wastes (principally,
carbon dioxide) into the environment without catastrophic consequences.
Standards for economic success must shift from gross metrics of economic
activity, to more direct assessments of human well-being, equity, and
the health of the natural world.
✦ With energy supplies diminishing, raw material resources similarly
depleting, and crises such as climate change rapidly advancing, the
long-term goal of satisfying the needs of the world’s poorest peoples—in
their attempts to recover from centuries of colonialism, resource
exploitation, and removal from traditional lands and economies—becomes
ever more daunting. Efforts at relieving poverty, both domestically and
internationally, will require more equitable reallocation of existing
real wealth.
✦ These factors must all be taken very seriously by policy makers in all
countries, and by global institutions that have thus far failed to be
realistic about what will be required to avoid future social and
economic breakdowns and geopolitical crises, as countries and peoples
compete for dwindling energy resources, raw materials, and agricultural
space. While it is not yet too late to change course, the opportunities
to avoid catastrophic economic, environmental, social, and political
impacts are few and quickly dwindling.
For further information, or additional copies of the report, please
contact the organizations below:
POST CARBON INSTITUTE
500 N. Main St., Suite 100
Sebastopol, CA 95472 USA
Tel: +1.707.823.8700 • Fax: +1.866.797.5820
http://www.postcarbon.org • me...@postcarbon.org
G=EMC^2 Glazier
location 100% important. Bottom shape of boiler 100% important. Tubes as
in high pressure boilers 100% important,and my added improvements 100%
important.. We need high dry steam to turn the turbine,and I have the
best thinking how to achieve this. I am clever,and to old to be modest
Bert
hab...@anony.net
one small industrial country!! Equal to 300 nukes worldwide in solar
power a year if other countries follow the sensible policy of high
feed in tarriffs. California will add 3gw this year as well.
Proof Govt knows best and can led us to a bright new solar
world. Total worldwide energy need is about 20,000 GW. 300GW a year
and escalating could mean all our energy needs supplied by solar power
in just twenty years.
excerpt
http://en.cop15.dk/news/view+news?newsid=2678
A plan by the German government some years ago to promote solar cells
through feed-in-tariffs and other incentives has led to a boom in
installed capacity. The country now has more than a third of the
world�s total capacity � 5.3 GW (gigawatt) of 15 GW. During 2009 alone
close to 3 GW will be installed. This is a world record for installed
solar capacity in one country during one year.
"We�re all surprised by how strongly demand is picking up now (�)
It�ll be well over 2.5 (GW). But it won�t be over 3 GW simply because
there isn�t enough capacity. We�re already at the limit," Carsten
Koernig, head of BSW, Germany�s solar industry
hab...@anony.net
The new numbers imply that solar power is beginning to satisfy far
more than just a tiny fraction of Germany�s demand for power. This
year�s installed capacity is equivalent of having three large coal
power plants or three nuclear plants built.
According to BSW, the present peak may partly be due to government
signals that the incentives will be lowered in the near future, as the
industry is seen as mature and thus shouldn�t need the same amount of
public funding. Investors are starting projects now to make sure they
fall under the present, favorable rules.
"We�re now confident the government does not want to endanger the
sector and any adjustments to the law will be minor. The government
sent us an important signal that they�re still counting on renewable
energy," Carsten Koernig comments.
DanB
> This is truly amazing, 3 nuke plants worth in one year in just
> one small industrial country!! Equal to 300 nukes worldwide in solar
> power a year if other countries follow the sensible policy of high
> feed in tarriffs. California will add 3gw this year as well.
> Proof Govt knows best and can led us to a bright new solar
> world. Total worldwide energy need is about 20,000 GW. 300GW a year
> and escalating could mean all our energy needs supplied by solar power
Ooops!
<http://www.solarserver.de/lexikon/sonneneinstrahlung-e.html>
"Map of Germany showing the highest recorded levels of solar radiation
per year."
Math, (among other things), was never your strong suit. So I'm sure this
is a 'whooosh' right over your head.....
tj Frazir
Its 1000 times better then a water turbine.
1000 times the power/volume.
Sci-Gate ?
you fuckers are as guilty as the GW sci fi gang and the sci cooked
book.
Its on Jap tv now.
whale engines because I gave japan a real engine when japan saw the
emails a month befor i gave jeff one.
I payed 200 million ,,not to jeff LOL but for emails. LOL.
First I kicked Global Warmings ass and now Im going to kick evryones
ass.
Im kicking you asses VIA Japan and Koria .
Japan has whale 7 on tv.
After all..175 MPG is no joke.
175 MPG is the stanard and you can stay ignorant but not the entire
world.
The japs will end the oil age ..usa will follow.
China came in # 2 with hints.
wanaknow what japan gave ?
tj Frazir
The pic had to look like that.
Math wount let me draw another method of engine.
I rebuilt it so any times it dont look like this engine but its allmost
this engine.
Whale engine 2 and 3 is the same engine.
whale 1 is the same engine.
But none of the engines look like any of the engines i have now.
There is an energy revolution at your doorstep.
TTHIS engine your going to deal with sooner or when ever...but you will.
Because this engine runs 1 mllon miles without a breakdown. It uses 10
% the fuel and its just a hand full of parts.
Because it works....so very well ,,like the math that built it. Its
not going to go away.
Because 175 MPG ends the oil age as you knew it. It ends the electric
bill as you knew it.
It ended the age of the power line pole and the oil age and started a
free energy planet where energy is dirt cheep and clean.
THATS WHAT YOU WANTED...thats what I built
Aleph
sci.physics on Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:03:39 -0500, tj Frazir
<Gravity...@webtv.net> imparted these words of wisdom:
>
><snip lies>
Where is Relf's money?
Prove you arent a lying fruitcake fucknozzle.
--
Aleph
This article was posted to USENET, please reply in that manner. Emails
to this account will be ignored.
Sam Wormley
> Bert
>
Like I said--Not very practical for boilers, is it, Herb!
G=EMC^2 Glazier
Steam is what I am talking about.and making better use of the sun in a
given area. Bert
Sam Wormley
Ever heard of solar cells, Herb? The have the advantage of not having
to use 540 calories to turn a single gram of water into steam.
tj Frazir
The fire makes steam.
Steam can be combined witth detnation.
650 psi steam takes more heat then 300 psi because the boiling point of
the water is lower at 300 psi.
The fuel distance to 1000 psi from 300 psi is much shoter whenn the
boiler gets the steam to 300 psi and then fuel and o2 injected into the
steam takes it to 1000 psi on much less energy then it would take to get
it that hot all the way in the boiler and flame.
Because of this fact...
I built whale 3 for your car and thats just a doble boiler. and tgotb
ballanced gas air steam for ships trucks trains and planes.
25 years of cheeting he cost of ship engine parts and fuel bills.
made me rich
_...@jeff_relf.seattle.invalid
If you ( TJ ) really are rich,
then shame on you for not paying me something, anything.
You make promises you can't keep then you laugh at me;
you make everyone laugh at me, even my family and friends.
You tell me: " What are you going to do, sue me ? ".
That's just evil.
Aleph
sci.physics on Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:45:57 -0500, tj Frazir
> Boilers dont make steam
And you dont make sense.
Where is Relf's money you lying fantasist. Why dont you just come clean
and admit your pathetic life is so bad, you have invented this bizarre
world spanning giant alter ego to make up for it?
G=EMC^2 Glazier
steam for our turbines to turn the generators to produce electricity?.
Chances are Sam you again will not answer . O ya You fit with a non
thinker A true blue parrot brain at best Bert
G=EMC^2 Glazier
cartoon. Jeff you are not that dumb,and I know it Bert
Sam Wormley
> Sam Than answer this question PLEASE Why do we have boilers making
> steam for our turbines to turn the generators to produce electricity?.
Because Boilers can work 24/7 using fossil fuels and can be inside buildings
and even underground. They can be held at relatively constant temperature
for relatively long periods of time, maximizing efficiency. They work
when cloud blows by and they don't have to sit idle for 12-16 hours (or
more) per day.
> Chances are Sam you again will not answer . O ya You fit with a non
> thinker A true blue parrot brain at best Bert
>
I don't think you are all that smart, Bert.
Aleph
sci.physics on Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:16:38 +0000 (UTC),
_@Jeff_Relf.Seattle.inValid <_@Jeff_Relf.Seattle.inValid> imparted these
words of wisdom:
>
>
He isn't. He is a lying fantasist with no knowledge of math or physics.
Nothing he says is truthful.
> then shame on you for not paying me something, anything.
>
> You make promises you can't keep then you laugh at me;
> you make everyone laugh at me, even my family and friends.
To be fair, that isn't Frazir who does that. You do a pretty good job of
making people laugh at you all by yourself.
> You tell me: " What are you going to do, sue me ? ".
> That's just evil.
Its typical of his 10 year old, bullied, school boy mind. He know you
cant sue him and even if you did, he has nothing to lose.
On the other hand, you *were* gullible enough to think he would ever
pay. How many times has he done this to you now?
Marvin the Martian
Not that you'd know, but solar to steam to electricity is cheaper and
more efficient.
Most of the world's electricity comes from steam engines.
Marvin the Martian
There is a reason why steam engines (aka Rankin Cycle) are so dang
popular. It's simple engineering. Physics notes that the Carnot cycle is
most efficient, but the energy going in, the compression of the working
gas, is mechanical. Mechanical energy comes at a cost. The Rankin Cycle
uses 1% of the energy to "compress" the gas as the Carnot cycle.
The beauty of steam is that you can pump the far smaller volume of liquid
water into the boiler, and use heat to expand it into a large volume of
gas. The work to pump the water into the boiler is almost trivial.
Just about every Joule of electrical energy, outside of hydroelectric, is
created from mechanical energy from a steam engine. And you dismiss the
entire thing as some sort of "fossil fuel" issue.
You get about 40% efficiency out of a modern steam turbine, while an
ideal Carnot cycle would yield about 63% (given the limitations of steel
in the boiler, the maximum steam temp is about 560 C). Compare that to
5-10% solar cells, and the advantage is obvious.
Basically, if you want energy out, the Rankin Cycle is the way to go, not
photovoltaics. You have more iron invested, but if you go to a moderate
scale, it's worth it. No solution to the energy "crisis", but useful for
off grid applications in the American South West.
Sam Wormley
The discussion is about solar powered boilers, Marvin.
Marvin the Martian
Glazier is talking about making electricity, using a solar boiler. The
rest is pretty much conventional physics of steam engines.
Or don't you even know what you're talking about here? Solar boilers is
kinda old hat.
Sam Wormley
For sure.
G=EMC^2 Glazier
boilers can store lots of heat. As you know Severn Trent has shut my
house water. I have five 55 gal. barrels that collect rain water. I make
the best use of the Sun to keep the water at about 108 degrees.for my
showers My electric bill is down by $50 bucks each month(no house
boiler) Yes my barrels are black,and when no Sun they get the best
insulation. All is good physics. All is good engineering how I collect
the water. I have always bought bottled water for drinking. Best to
realize Florida has ground water that filters through millions of
caskets each day. God gave us water,and now that the Godfather owns
Severn Trent Water he can take it away. Bert
Sam Wormley
> Sam WOW you answered a question. In your answer was the fact that big
> boilers can store lots of heat. As you know Severn Trent has shut my
> house water. I have five 55 gal. barrels that collect rain water. I make
> the best use of the Sun to keep the water at about 108 degrees.for my
> showers My electric bill is down by $50 bucks each month(no house
> boiler) Yes my barrels are black,and when no Sun they get the best
> insulation.
What insulation, Herb? You said they were black.
All is good physics. All is good engineering how I collect
> the water. I have always bought bottled water for drinking. Best to
> realize Florida has ground water that filters through millions of
> caskets each day. God gave us water,and now that the Godfather owns
> Severn Trent Water he can take it away. Bert
>
Why don't invest in a water filtration system so's you don't
have to drink bottled water in plastic.
tj Frazir
stopped befor youwould read the trade bank ( inprot export bank of usa )
and just quit.. let 10 million bucks sitting there,,
then posted my emails on line.
You allways come back to YOU DONT WANT THE MONEY.
how about 600 logs 20 ton each ?
or 500 ton of tuna ..
then 200 MILLION in trade in 30 days right here.
just because you brought it here to stab m in the back..
THEN what you have now is an engine ,,but your 100 % playing stupid.
Your playing like you dont know if it works ad just playing stupid.
i drove past your house and flipped a box open with 5 million in it
,,,it walks in and opens any email on earth,,I picked james hansen and
had a peek..
because like you ,,,
some one is playing stupid when they fucking know better and it dont
fool me.
YOU must think you fool me ..im no ones fool.
Or Id run the same dumb stupid ship engine like a fool. Id get 22 MPG
like a fool instead of 250 MPG.
dont be a fool.
thats the best engine on earth..
you
YOU YOU published whale 2 and 3 ..
and now you can walk over to te edu ,,and show them,,then the edu will
give a key to bills gate .. use the key in gate to see bill and say
captain canada sent ya .
tj Frazir
paying is going to reviel who i am.
ou know who i am but you cant prove it .
that way I can allways say LOL never herd of it.
Ill allways be rich ,,never live on land , and never be faimed so i
cant drive my 1930 and have a soda on te bulivard.
faime wont help my life styal.
16 billon is ausome because I dont have the world up my ass and can
walk down sunset bulivard ber hopping and faimed people dont have my
freedom.
billionaires are asked for money evry time any mob sees them.
give mee give mee....and evryone knows what I should do and where I
should live ...
evryone wants a loan ,,and evryone i mean ebryone is your friend
because they know your rich.
they dont do notin
tj Frazir
or anything else
tj Frazir
It takes potecutal energy CONVERTS IT then CONVERTS it then Converts it.
1/2 then 1/2 of that then 1/2 of that energy did work.
The steam power water rocket takes that porentual energy into duration
without converting it at all.
Who is better based on the laws of conservation alone !!
The steam piston engine 400 ci at 2000 rpm is 12000 cubic inch
displaced per second or 1200 cubic inch steam per second at 600 pound
thrust.
The steam power water rocket is 12 cubic inch steam at 650 psi per
second..
650 psi steam ( 12 cubic inch ) injcted in the water rockets 600 cubic
inch water with a 1 square inch nosel fot the water jet. 600 pound
thrust at 10 ci per second .
12/1200 is 100 to 1.
tj Frazir
shure I have better and new ,,
you better undrstand these.
These are great pics because you can see how a 4 cylinder steam power
water rocket runs.
ANY FUCKING LOON that says water rockets dont work is a fucknutzjob.
NONE OF YOU ARE SUGESTING WATER ROCKETS DONT WORK
ALL these are steam powered water rockets.
THEY ARE WATER ROCKETS DUMBASS.
WHO the fuck dont think water rockets are real
???????????????????????????????????????
You stupid or what ??
line up 5 water rockers side by side..
fire the first wait 1 second and fire the next ..
keep firing the next evry second ..
reload the cylinder befor it neads fired ..each cylinder will re-fire
evry 4 seconds.
WHAT dose that 5 cylinder water rocket look like ???
and you dont like my pic ??
whats up with that ?
YOU must be stupid. You must be too stupid to post because you dont
think water rockets work.
You cant do the math on a water rocket ?
You never saw a water rocket ??
You dont understand water rockets ??
Or you dont understand slide vane rotors ??
A dumbass can see the visual aid..
tj Frazir
MPG.
The truck gets 175 mpg but your car gets 25 mpg.
Wile you flat out denie you know how water rockets work and how a doble
boiler makes steam.
The big ship engines are 300 ton 30 feet tall and cost 8 million
brand new and produce 100,000 hp. SSteam power water rocket does that
on 1/14th the fuel and 200,000 bucks and never breaks down because it
dont have a crank.
WHAT one of you morons dont know how water rockets work ??
YOUR telling us water rockets dont exsist !!!
Or are you telling us Water rockets dont work ?
Or you understand 1 water rocket and cant understand 5 water rockets ??
The pic is no good herb ????
draw the strait threw wate rockets witout the bottom flaps that load
threw the top..
and inject steam in each rocket on time
Whale.Steam.Engine.2.jpg
Address:http://jeffrelf.f-m.fm/Whale.Steam.Engine.2.jpg Changed:3:43 PM
on Wednesday, October 14, 2009
tj Frazir
Its too simple ,,it dont waist anything.
its the cleanest engine room and its got cylinders i never used.
i can put waht ever cylindrs i want on line.
i can ajust it to run low and slow or hot and hard and it cant bust
down.
G=EMC^2 Glazier
insulation at night(no Sun) Get the picture Sam. I think you are so low
brained I have to spell out stuff to get it to sink into your tiny low
wit parrot brain. You brain is a never was and never be a thinker Sam go
straight to Google "Its the only friend for you' Oi Ya Bert
hab...@anony.net
excerpt
http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=678
Using hydrogen as a clean fuel with relatively endless reserves
certainly has potential, but also faces many challenges. For example,
the production of hydrogen requires a great deal of energy.
However, some companies have made great inroads in utilising renewable
energy sources such as wind and solar power in the hydrogen harvesting
process. One such company is Avalence LLC; based in the USA.
Avalence�s hydrogen generators are electrochemical devices that
convert water and electricity into high purity pressurized hydrogen
gas through the process of electrolysis. Avalence's Hydrofiller system
is a high-pressure hydrogen gas generator that doesn't require a
separate compressor. According to the company, this cuts capital costs
by up to 50% and operating costs by 20%.
Given the lower energy requirements, it also means the Hydrofiller
system can be powered by solar panels or wind turbines.
The company says electrolysis is the most direct method for creating
hydrogen fuel from fluctuating renewable energy sources. The Avalence
Hydrofiller enables 24-hour electricity availability from intermittent
energy sources from not just solar and wind, but also hydraulic and
tidal power. In large applications, hydrogen produced during
inexpensive or excess power production periods can be stored and later
distributed to stationary fuel cell generators to supply electricity
during expensive or peak demand periods.