Ancient pottery recordings - Info source?
Ross Kouhi
I heard a really cool story about the idea that sound in an
ancient pottery workshop could have modulated the tool used
in shaping ancient vases etc. The idea being that you should
be able to demodulate the grooves in the pottery and play
back some sound fragments from ancient times.
Does anyone have a source or web page where I could find out
more about this. Did anyone actually try this or was it
just an urban legend.
Is there a sound file available with an ancient Egyptian saying:
"Now if those aliens would just finish the pyramids
and leave, things could get back to normal. Hey, nice
vase Pa."
Just curious
Ross.
Dan Evens
Ross Kouhi wrote:
> I heard a really cool story about the idea that sound in an
> ancient pottery workshop could have modulated the tool used
> in shaping ancient vases etc.
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Geoffrey A. Landis
In article <rossk-16079...@47.80.11.122> Ross Kouhi,
ro...@nortel.ca writes:
>I heard a really cool story about the idea that sound in an
>ancient pottery workshop could have modulated the tool used
>be able to demodulate the grooves in the pottery and play
>back some sound fragments from ancient times.
The idea was used in a Gregory Benford short story around 1980, which was
in his short-story collection _In Alien Flesh_. It was also featured in
one of the "Inventions of Daedalus" columns in _New Scientist_ [since
moved to _Nature_], and I believe appeared in the book of collected
reprints.
I believe that I have heard that this has, in fact, been done, but I
don't have a reference for it.
Nothing so good as the quote about the pyramids (although the quote that
Benford makes up for his story is pretty good)-- in fact, I believe that
I heard that the actual experiment picked up only ambient noises, not
people talking.
____________________________________________
Geoffrey A. Landis,
Ohio Aerospace Institute at NASA Lewis Research Center
physicist and part-time science fiction writer
Edward Green
'Geoffrey A. Landis <geoffre...@lerc.nasa.gov>' wrote:
>I believe that I have heard that this has, in fact, been done, but I
>don't have a reference for it.
>
>Nothing so good as the quote about the pyramids (although the quote that
>Benford makes up for his story is pretty good)-- in fact, I believe that
>I heard that the actual experiment picked up only ambient noises, not
>people talking.
me that by carefully ablating the surface layers of the pot you can
reconstruct a holographic image of the potter's shop.
Next: movies of the dinosaurs.
--
Ed Green / egr...@nyc.pipeline.com
"While learning more details enabled me to rectify some of my
mistaken notions, I developed new ones." Diane Vaughan
Ross Kouhi
Dan Evens <dev...@inforamp.net>
posted a photo of his doll:
Nice doll Dan, but if we can get back to the pottery thing...
The physics is intriguing and I'd really like to hear if
anyone (besides Dan and his doll) has any info.
Cheers,
Ross
Uncle Al Schwartz
Info? Are we a collection of brain-dead obfuscating soft
scientists dribbling hermeneutics to the mob?
Get a cylinder of potter's clay, set up an Edison phonograph, try
it out. If a stylus is not your style, use a laser for readout.
That will give you some idea of sonic coupling to a reed used to
circumferentially inscribe a spinning pot as decoration.
My personal guess is that the possibility of recovering such
recordings from pottery is about the same as finding a videotape
of Hillary Ramrod Clinton and Camille Paglia in a giggly snuggle.
Of course, that is not the same as zero.
--
Alan "Uncle Al" Schwartz
Uncl...@ix.netcom.com ("zero" before @; 24 hour delay)
http://www.netprophet.co.nz/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Hazardous to children, Democrats, and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
Ross Kouhi
Hi Uncle,
Actually, you miss the point of my original post. I am more interested
in the Pseudo-science nature of the story than trying to setup a
pottery sounds recording studio. I heard this story on the net
somewhere and would like to trace the origins of it.
In message " Ancient pottery recordings - Info source?", che...@UVic.ca
writes:
>Info? Are we a collection of brain-dead obfuscating soft
>scientists dribbling hermeneutics to the mob?
>
I don't know your organization well enough to answer that.
You _do_ have an email address from a University don't you?
Isn't that the mandate there? :)
>Get a cylinder of potter's clay, set up an Edison phonograph, try
>it out.
I have enough trouble funding my current work projects - a
purchase order for a potters wheel, 2 lbs of clay and a reed
probably would not get through on a cellular telephony budget.
>If a stylus is not your style, use a laser for readout.
>That will give you some idea of sonic coupling to a reed used to
>circumferentially inscribe a spinning pot as decoration.
>
>My personal guess is that the possibility of recovering such
>recordings from pottery is about the same as finding a videotape
>of Hillary Ramrod Clinton and Camille Paglia in a giggly snuggle.
>
>Of course, that is not the same as zero.
>
>--
I guess you don't know anything about this story. You should
apply for some leave to get some time away from the realm of
the elite, and join the 'mob' - it's alot more fun out here
(and the pay is better too! :) )
Ross
Matt McIrvin
In article <rossk-18079...@47.80.11.122>, ro...@nortel.ca (Ross
Kouhi) wrote:
> Actually, you miss the point of my original post. I am more interested
> in the Pseudo-science nature of the story than trying to setup a
> pottery sounds recording studio. I heard this story on the net
> somewhere and would like to trace the origins of it.
You might have better luck on alt.folklore.urban, where they study and
discuss the creation and propagation of stories of questionable veracity.
(Or, as they say over there when trying to confuse people, "voracity."
Once a poster defended a dubious tale by saying "as for its voracity, this
is my GRANDMOTHER you're talking about," and forever after they've been
talking about voracious grandmothers.)
Read their FAQ first; it's hilarious and informative reading.
--
Matt McIrvin <http://world.std.com/~mmcirvin/>
JMFBAH
In article <rossk-18079...@47.80.11.122> ro...@nortel.ca (Ross
Kouhi) writes:
<snip>
< I heard this story on the net
<somewhere and would like to trace the origins of it.
<snip>
It was in a TV show but I have no idea which show, channel, etc. Likely
channels are The Discovery Channel, The Learning Channel, or the show NOVA
on PBS. I've been trying to remember the subject of the show but can
only recall scenes from the southwest of the USA. If I remember more,
I'll let you know.
/BAH
da...@cyberramp.net
While I cannot remember where I heard it, nor point you to sources,...
they way I heard it, the potter's hands and tools were made to shape the
vase, right? So possibly one could 'back out' a sounds from that -- the
sound the potter heard when he made it in the first place.
program signature
write(*,*), 'Dan Stephenson'
write(*,*), 'da...@cyberramp.net'
stop
end
Michael Seaton
In article <rossk-16079...@47.80.11.122>,
ro...@nortel.ca (Ross Kouhi) wrote:
>Does anyone have a source or web page where I could find out
>more about this. Did anyone actually try this or was it
>just an urban legend.
This was in a segment on one of Arthur C. Clarke's various
series--I'm fairly sure that the originator of the idea
was mentioned there by name. I recall that the closest
anyone had gotten to a retrieved sound by this method was
something that *might* have been the thunk of the
potter's wheel. Nothing earth-shattering, at any rate.
>Ross.
--
Michael Seaton (mse...@pobox.com)
p.s.
If you're interested in tracking down the video, it
was probably on either _World of Strange Powers_ or
_Mysterious World_, and came near the end of a
programme examining 'apparitions'.
Chris Palmer
Michael Seaton wrote:
>
> In article <rossk-16079...@47.80.11.122>,
> ro...@nortel.ca (Ross Kouhi) wrote:
> >Does anyone have a source or web page where I could find out
> >more about this. Did anyone actually try this or was it
> >just an urban legend.
>
> This was in a segment on one of Arthur C. Clarke's various
> series--I'm fairly sure that the originator of the idea
> was mentioned there by name. I recall that the closest
> anyone had gotten to a retrieved sound by this method was
> something that *might* have been the thunk of the
> potter's wheel. Nothing earth-shattering, at any rate.
This might be further confused by a neat SF story I read (sorry, can't
remember the title or author) about Beethoven. Some inventor invents a
primative color organ which, by mechanical means, translates sounds to
different colored lights. He shows it to Beethoven because he thinks it
would be a great thing for deaf people. Beethoven, believing that it
will enable him to hear music better, gets pissed off and breaks it.
However, in its damaged state, one of the gears scratches one of the
color wheels. The inventors daughter notices that the scratches are
jagged in relation to the sounds being picked up by the tympanic
membrane of the device. She recognizes that the device is recording
sound, but they have no way of playing it back. She and her father
improve the device to do nothing but pick up sound and make scratches on
glass disks. She records Beethoven and Chopin and several other
musicians as well as readings by famous authors and such, then leaves
the recordings in her attic hoping that someone in the future will be
able to play them back.
The rest of the story is in the present where the disks are discovered
and lasers are used to read the scratches. The sound is then digitially
recorded and released as live recordings of composers and performers who
died before the invention of the phonograph. It was a neat "idea"
story.
Chris Lawson
Chris Palmer wrote:
[snip]
> This might be further confused by a neat SF story I read (sorry, can't
> remember the title or author) about Beethoven. Some inventor invents a
> primative color organ which, by mechanical means, translates sounds to
> different colored lights. He shows it to Beethoven because he thinks it
> would be a great thing for deaf people. Beethoven, believing that it
> will enable him to hear music better, gets pissed off and breaks it.
> However, in its damaged state, one of the gears scratches one of the
> color wheels. The inventors daughter notices that the scratches are
> jagged in relation to the sounds being picked up by the tympanic
> membrane of the device. She recognizes that the device is recording
> sound, but they have no way of playing it back. She and her father
> improve the device to do nothing but pick up sound and make scratches on
> glass disks. She records Beethoven and Chopin and several other
> musicians as well as readings by famous authors and such, then leaves
> the recordings in her attic hoping that someone in the future will be
> able to play them back.
> The rest of the story is in the present where the disks are discovered
> and lasers are used to read the scratches. The sound is then digitially
> recorded and released as live recordings of composers and performers who
> died before the invention of the phonograph. It was a neat "idea"
> story.
There's also a Benford story about hearing a conversation in Middle English recorded
into a vase. Good story.
Another interesting one (can't recall title or author) was based on sound waves echoing
in very cold water, so a researcher tries to record the sound of the Red Sea parting.
--
_____________________________________
Chris Lawson cl...@ozemail.com.au
_____________________________________
Louis Giglio
In article <rossk-16079...@47.80.11.122>, ro...@nortel.ca (Ross
Kouhi) wrote:
>Does anyone have a source or web page where I could find out
>more about this. Did anyone actually try this or was it
>just an urban legend.
A paper in one of the IEEE journals appeared on this topic 20 or 30
years ago. The author actually found some kind of sound recorded on
pottery (the noise of the grinding wheel I think), and suggested one
might listen for sounds recorded in oil paintings as well (made during
the brush strokes). I can't remember the author's name off hand, but
I'll dig it up and post it. I thought the paper was interesting.
I found out about the paper from a footnote in one of Greg Benford's
short science fiction stories.
Louis
Anthony Wallis
Louis Giglio wrote:
> A paper in one of the IEEE journals ..
> The author .. suggested one might listen for sounds recorded in oil
> paintings .. (made during the brush strokes).
Would have to be _very_ quick drying paint.
Somewhere 65 million years ago, a little proto-mammal was scared by
a dinosaur roaring, and ran across a mud flat, that was just on the
point of drying rock-hard, dragging its tail just above the surface
so that a single hair, vibrating with the sound of the dinosaur roar,
traced out its path across the surface. The surface dried and
the rains never came again until after that surface was buried a
while later by the fallout from a meteor impact. 65 millions years
pass and a geologist brushing away at the KT boundary and
exposes what looks like running mouse footprints straddling a thin
straight line.
He looks at the line through a magnifying glass and thinks ..
--
to...@nexus.yorku.ca = Tony Wallis, York University, North York, Canada.
Jon Cohen
Louis Giglio (gig...@hades.gsfc.nasa.gov) wrote:
: In article <rossk-16079...@47.80.11.122>, ro...@nortel.ca (Ross
: Kouhi) wrote:
: >Does anyone have a source or web page where I could find out
: >more about this. Did anyone actually try this or was it
: >just an urban legend.
: A paper in one of the IEEE journals appeared on this topic 20 or 30
: years ago. The author actually found some kind of sound recorded on
: pottery (the noise of the grinding wheel I think), and suggested one
: might listen for sounds recorded in oil paintings as well (made during
: the brush strokes). I can't remember the author's name off hand, but
: I'll dig it up and post it. I thought the paper was interesting.
: I found out about the paper from a footnote in one of Greg Benford's
: short science fiction stories.
: Louis
Or how's this: playback the sound recorded in drying blood (OJ! why did
you do that? ...).
Perhaps it would work with a process of crystalization. Read out the
pattern of crystal imperfections with a scanning tunnel microscope.
Just a thought.
Jon
Thomas Dolphin
>> In article <rossk-16079...@47.80.11.122>,
>> ro...@nortel.ca (Ross Kouhi) wrote:
>> >Does anyone have a source or web page where I could find out
>> >more about this. Did anyone actually try this or was it
>> >just an urban legend.
There was a program about just this topic on BBC1 last night.
The team were investigating the phenomenon of sounds coming from the
wall of a pub in Wales (I have heard of this pub before - it made the
papers a while back).
They passed an electric current between two nails hammered into the
wall, separated by about a foot, so that the current went through the
brick, which was apparently rich in iron oxide. They left tape recorders
and motion sensors (for hoaxers) in the room overnight. Next day, they
found banging noises, indistinct speech (including some Russian saying,
"We are very pleased at this opportunity for a meeting") and some
bizarre feedback noises.
It was pretty eerie listening to it. There are several major flaws with
the science they proposed. Even supposing that the iron oxide in some
way recorded the sound due to realignment with modulation, like a
cassette recorder, it would be considered unusual to be able to play a
tape by passing an electric current through it.
Another problem was the frequency of the sounds. Much of the speech was
actually being "played back" at half-speed, which is apparently
indicative of the use of a reel-to-reel tape player.
Any comments?
--
. T Dolphin . . . . . \ / .
. . . . . * .
. . . . . / . \ .
. . . . . - - * \ .
doug mckean
Makes one wonder what was happening on the
SECOND floor of the pub.
LBsys
Im Artikel <pL1+NEAC9x$xE...@delphis.demon.co.uk>, Thomas Dolphin
<tho...@delphis.demon.co.uk> schreibt:
> Another problem was the frequency of the sounds. Much of the speech was
>actually being "played back" at half-speed, which is apparently
>indicative of the use of a reel-to-reel tape player.
Yes: Check the balance of the pub owners account. Was it down before the
rumours started? Then check the back of the wall ;-))
Everybody's got stupid thoughts,
but the wise man withholds them. (Wilhelm Busch)
_________________________________________
L. Borsche
ale...@aol.com
In article <1996Jul2...@hades.gsfc.nasa.gov>,
gig...@hades.gsfc.nasa.gov (Louis Giglio) wrote:
> In article <rossk-16079...@47.80.11.122>, ro...@nortel.ca (Ross
> Kouhi) wrote:
> >Does anyone have a source or web page where I could find out
> >more about this. Did anyone actually try this or was it
> >just an urban legend.
>
> A paper in one of the IEEE journals appeared on this topic 20 or 30
> years ago. The author actually found some kind of sound recorded on
> pottery (the noise of the grinding wheel I think), and suggested one
> might listen for sounds recorded in oil paintings as well (made during
> the brush strokes). I can't remember the author's name off hand, but
> I'll dig it up and post it. I thought the paper was interesting.
>
> I found out about the paper from a footnote in one of Greg Benford's
> short science fiction stories.
I'm almost certain a brief report of this appeared in Sci. American--not
an article, but a few paragraphs in the news section. It was at least 20
years ago, probably more. I don't think those items are indexed so
you're in for a lot of page-turning.
Alex Jimenez
Robert J. Chassell
As for sounds recorded by nature in the past and played back in the
present:
In the late 1950s or early 1960s, a show on US television had a
segment in which archeologists used the newly invented MASER to listen
to the voices and cries recorded on solidifying lava from the eruption
of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 AD. In a disclaimer after the show, the host
said `no one has yet played back the past like this; but the MASER is
real. MASER stands for `Microwave Amplification by Simulated Emission
of Radiation'.
This was the first time I heard the term MASER; it was several years
before the word LASER appeared.
--
Robert J. Chassell b...@gnu.ai.mit.edu
25 Rattlesnake Mountain Road b...@rattlesnake.com
Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA (413) 298-4725