Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: eric alan forgy <fo...@students.uiuc.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:09:40 GMT
Local: Mon, Feb 18 2002 1:09 pm
Subject: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
Hello,
I recently stumbled onto something that could potentially open up Does the *-product have anything at all to do with composition of strings What exactly is a string algebra? Is there some operation in string theory It would be really fascinating to me if the work I have been doing on path Anyway, I'd really appreciate some words of wisdom from people who know Thank you very much, You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Aaron Bergman <aberg...@princeton.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:39:13 GMT
Local: Tues, Feb 19 2002 10:39 pm
Subject: Re: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
In article <Pine.GSO.4.31.0202180930040.4757-100...@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
eric alan forgy <fo...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote: > Hello, There are a few different star products. The one you're probably > I recently stumbled onto something that could potentially open up referring to is the so-called Moyal star product. Basically, given an anti-symmetric matrix theta_{uv}, we have (f * g)(z) = e^(i theta_{uv} d^x_u d^y_v) f(x) g(y) | x=y=z In bigger words, this can be thought of as the deformation quantization [...] > Does the *-product have anything at all to do with composition of strings In some sense, the Moyal star is a toy model of this (hep-th/0006071). It has been more recently shown that, for some sectors of the string field, the star product can be thought of as an uncountable direct sum of Moyal *'s (hep-th/0202087). [...] > What exactly is a string algebra? Is there some operation in string theory One would like a way to multiply string fields. The obvious answer to > that composes strings/paths? this is to just concatenate strings. Unfortunately, this is only associative up to a reparametrization of the string field (Here is where John Baez chimes in with what this algebraic structure is called. A_oo algebra, maybe?). Rather than try to deal with this, Witten instead decided to divide every string into halves and then, to multiply two strings, you identify the right half of one with the left half of the other. For more details, see the Witten paper referred to above. Note that this only works nicely for open strings. Doing something Aaron You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: eric alan forgy <fo...@students.uiuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:13:00 GMT
Subject: Re: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
Hi Aaron,
Thanks for your reply. > > What exactly is a string algebra? Is there some operation in string theory After sending of the original post, I did a bit of reading and the > > that composes strings/paths? > One would like a way to multiply string fields. The obvious answer to relation between the Moyal and Witten products is pretty fascinating and I am beginning to think that some things I've been doing may be related. However, everything I'm doing is on purely algebraic/combinatoric background spaces. For instance, I have basically an abstract simplicial complex where an edge (string?) is represented by a simple finite set, e.g. [ij] = {{i},{j},{i,j}}. There is no parametrization. Now, in LQG you start out with a manifold and then define a spin network Is it possible something similar to this could happen in string theory? (aL,aR) * (bL,bR) = (aL,bR) Now if you distill out what the pure algebra of this is, you can almost I'm wondering if there is some relation between string theory and I spent a couple of days in a swirl reading up on representation theory of I might just be spewing nonsense, but from what I have seen so far is that Even general relatvity is not completely background independent because > Note that this only works nicely for open strings. Doing something I am totally out of my league here, but it seems as though any problems > similar for closed strings in a nice way would be very nice. with doing this may be arising because you are assuming a continuum underlying space and you feel the need to "parameterize" strings. I can imagine a million ways to define associative products of "abstract closed strings". Could graph theory come to the rescue here? [snip] Thinking out loud, You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Aaron Bergman <aberg...@princeton.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:49:39 GMT
Local: Thurs, Feb 21 2002 10:49 pm
Subject: Re: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
In article
<Pine.GSO.4.31.0202192245430.25720-100...@ux11.cso.uiuc.edu>, eric alan forgy <fo...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote: > After sending of the original post, I did a bit of reading and the The thing is, in string theory, things live on the string. There is a > relation between the Moyal and Witten products is pretty fascinating and I > am beginning to think that some things I've been doing may be related. > However, everything I'm doing is on purely algebraic/combinatoric > background spaces. For instance, I have basically an abstract simplicial > complex where an edge (string?) is represented by a simple finite set, > e.g. [ij] = {{i},{j},{i,j}}. There is no parametrization. string field. It's a lot more than just combinatorics. > Now, in LQG you start out with a manifold and then define a spin network In string theory, "spacetime" is really the 2D QFT living on the > on it, do a bunch of fancy mathematics and when all is said and done, you > discover that you never really needed the manifold at all to begin with. > You could have started with this purely combinatorial spin network. > Is it possible something similar to this could happen in string theory? worldsheet. It is part of the string field, in a sense. > That is the impression I get when I read about Witten product of strings. One of the ideas to deal with string field theory is to split the string > Like you said, you first split this into two halves and then concatenate > the middle pieces like > (aL,aR) * (bL,bR) = (aL,bR) > Now if you distill out what the pure algebra of this is, you can almost into halves and deal with them. Look for articles on split strings. > I'm wondering if there is some relation between string theory and field is there. You can look at it in any number of ways (you can almost think of it as an infinite dimensional matrix and the Witten-* as matrix multiplication as Witten points out in his paper), but it's there. > I spent a couple of days in a swirl reading up on representation theory of Quivers show up in string theory in a seemingly different context. When > quivers and there is just tons of material on the subject. In fact, quite > a bit of the recent material has been in relation to string theory. I > won't pretend to understand the implications of it all, but at least I > know that the connections are there. you put D-branes at a singularity, it's interesting to study the gauge theory that lives on them. This is in many cases given by a quiver diagram. Each point in the quiver corresponds to a gauge group and each line corresponds to bifundamental matter. For example, there is an algorithm for going from any toric singularity to a quiver diagram. In fact, you get multiple possibilities. It's been conjectured that all these gauge theories are Seiberg dual. Anyways, the reason I included "seemingly" is that, on an orbifold singularity, you can think of the bifundamental matter as coming from strings twisted by the orbifold group and the gauge fields as coming from untwisted strings. > I might just be spewing nonsense, but from what I have seen so far is that In the Witten open string field theory, the space you're living on is, > working with these abstract spaces automatically gets you this "background > independence" that is held so dear in this place :) Putting coordinates on > these abstract spaces is highly artificial but can be done. When you do > so, it is pretty straight forward to see that what 'labels' you choose to > lay on the space really is of no consequence to any physics. in a sense, the space of backgrounds, so you get a sort of background independence. The problem is that there is a BRST operator in the action and this, as I understand, depends explicitly on the background. (The * product might also depend on the background; I've heard arguments about this.) [...] > > Note that this only works nicely for open strings. Doing something If you want to do anything with strings, you need to parametrize. It's > > similar for closed strings in a nice way would be very nice. > I am totally out of my league here, but it seems as though any problems all very nice to mumble stuff about abstract nonsense, but when you actually want to get down to the nitty gritty and say exactly what you get when you multiply two string fields, the easiest thing to do is to work in a specific reparametrization. It's basically gauge fixing. I'd like to be able to quantize, say, Yang-Mills theory in a gauge covariant way, but I don't know how to do it. What I do no how to do is to pick a gauge, do the Fadeev-Popov trick and look at the BRST cohomology. > I can It can be done. The problem with the current closed bosonic field theory > imagine a million ways to define associative products of "abstract closed > strings". is that it has an infinite number of interaction terms. It is altogether quite icky. > Could graph theory come to the rescue here? I don't see how. Aaron You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Thomas Larsson <Thomas.Lars...@hdd.se>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:43:00 +0100
Subject: Re: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
news:abergman-FFACC1.20242718022002@news.bellatlantic.net...
> There are a few different star products. The one you're probably The Moyal product has a rather neat geometrical interpretation. > referring to is the so-called Moyal star product. Basically, given an > anti-symmetric matrix theta_{uv}, we have > (f * g)(z) = e^(i theta_{uv} d^x_u d^y_v) f(x) g(y) | x=y=z > In bigger words, this can be thought of as the deformation quantization Expand functions on the simplest symplectic space R^2 in a Fourier series, so the basis functions are exp(i m.x) = exp(i m_i x^i), m in Z^2, x in R^2. The usual commutative product exp(i m.x) exp(i n.x) = exp(i (m+n).x) can be illustrated by vector addition of the Fourier modes. If m The star-product is exp(i m.x) * exp(i n.x) = exp(ih A(m,n)) exp(i (m+n).x) where A(m,n) is the area enclosed by the vectors m, n and m+n and A(m,n) + A(m+n,r) = A(m,n+r) + A(n,r). This gives associativity of the star product. I am pretty sure that This interpretation is so simple that many people must have thought You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: eric alan forgy <fo...@students.uiuc.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:50:02 GMT
Local: Thurs, Feb 21 2002 10:50 pm
Subject: Re: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
Hi!
On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Thomas Larsson wrote: Wow! VERY neat! :) > The Moyal product has a rather neat geometrical interpretation. Wow! :) That is pretty amazing :) How on earth does it work out like that? Any ideas? It is really fascinating that the area shows up that like. Do you know It reminds me of holonomies!! You are parallel transporting a vector once along n, then along m. This It's beautiful! :) It also helps to confirm the fact that what I've been doing is somehow It might even hint of a relation to spin networks and LQG. It would be even more suggestive if: exp[i m.x] * exp[i n.x] * exp[-i(m+n).x] = exp[ih A(m,n)] which I imagine is true. Then you are truly parallel transporting around a Well, instead of imagining, let's go ahead and see :) I've already sunk First, note that exp[i m.x] * exp[-i m.x] since A(m,-m) denotes a degenerate triangle of zero area. (Just like the Then, [exp(i m.x) * exp(i n.x)] * exp[-i (m+n).x] Voila! Ok. That wasn't so bad :) > When you add three vectors m, n and r, Beautiful! :) > the enclosed area can be split in two ways. This is somewhat difficult > to draw in ascii, but it is easy to convince oneself that > A(m,n) + A(m+n,r) = A(m,n+r) + A(n,r). > This gives associativity of the star product. I am pretty sure that If you look at it as parallel transporting vectors around triangles, the exp(i m.x) * [exp(i n.x) * exp(i r.x)] [exp(i m.x) * exp(i n.x)] * exp(i r.x) Therefore, like you said, * is associative if A(m,n) + A(m+n,r) = A(m,n+r) + A(n,r) which it obviously is. However, I suspect that these A's are not simply This can be seen (hopefully) by considering the figure below. m The term A(m,n) corresponds to transporting around the loop: m The term A(m+n,r) corresponds to transporting around the loop: + When you compose the two, i.e. A(m,n) + A(m+n,r), you get cancellations m Note, this should be pretty obvious once you have the parallel transport exp(i m.x) * exp(i n.x) * exp(i r.x) * exp[-i (m+n+r).x]. This adds to my conviction that A(m,n) are oriented areas. Similarly, the term A(m,n+r) corresponds to transporting around the loop: m Finally, the term A(n,r) corresponds to transporting around the loop: + Again, when you compose the two, i.e. A(m,n+r) + A(n,r) you get m PHEW!! ASCII art is tough :) This is another way to view the associativity of * Nifty, eh?! :) > This interpretation is so simple that many people must have thought Huh? Aren't they? m,n, and m+n are coplanar no matter what the dimension > about it, but I have actually never seen it in print. I once showed > it to Moshe Flato, who said that he sort of knew about it, but he > didn't sound completely convincing. It does not work in > higher-dimensional symplectic spaces, because the three vectors don't > need to lie in the same plane there. is. I must be missing something :) Thanks for a beautiful post! Wouldn't it be really fascinating if the When I first saw the *-product it reminded me of holonomies, which is why I had a lot of fun writing this post! :) Eric PS: Hmm... with a bit of afterthought, this parallel transport idea is PPS: This algebra works equally well for open paths (open string?) and PPPS: While I'm speculating, perhaps a string could somehow be a You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: riv...@sol.unizar.es (alejandro.rivero)
Date: 21 Feb 2002 14:58:50 -0800
Local: Thurs, Feb 21 2002 5:58 pm
Subject: Re: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
It was, with the triangle included, in a recent preprint in hep, one
of the series from Cosmas Zachos. I believe it is the right way to look at the product; just an You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: b...@galaxy.ucr.edu (John Baez)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 01:03:01 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, Feb 24 2002 8:03 pm
Subject: Re: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
In article <E180A6F82759D211BFDA00E01890523D27F460@HDDNT01>,
Thomas Larsson <Thomas.Lars...@hdd.se> wrote: >The Moyal product has a rather neat geometrical interpretation. This interpretation is actually built right into Belissard's theory >The star-product is >exp(i m.x) * exp(i n.x) = exp(ih A(m,n)) exp(i (m+n).x) >where A(m,n) is the area enclosed by the vectors m, n and m+n and of the quantum Hall effect in terms of the noncommutative torus! When you have a charged particle in a thin film in a constant transverse For a few more details and also some references, try: You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: zirk...@hotmail.com (zirkus)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:44:18 GMT
Local: Tues, Feb 19 2002 10:44 pm
Subject: Re: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
eric alan forgy <fo...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:
>I was hoping You seem to be talking about the Moyal star product. Are you sure that > someone might say a few words summarizing what this *-product is that pops > up in noncommutative geometry. this is not discussed in Connes' textbook (which I have not read) ? For an intro to star products in deformation quantization see page 2 of Kontsevich's (q-alg/9709040). > Does the *-product have anything at all to do with composition of strings Yes, for example, the Moyal star product is equivalent to Witten's > or paths. star product in string field theory. To see various ways in which the star product makes up strings check out (hep-th/0202087, 0101219, 0012145 and 0107216). Btw, perhaps it would be easier for you to learn about these topics if You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Aaron Bergman <aberg...@princeton.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:17:16 GMT
Local: Wed, Feb 20 2002 10:17 pm
Subject: Re: NCG/SUSY/*-Product
In article <8c7d34cb.0202191802.6618a...@posting.google.com>,
zirk...@hotmail.com (zirkus) wrote: Connes's book is really geared towards a different form of > eric alan forgy <fo...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news: > >I was hoping > You seem to be talking about the Moyal star product. Are you sure that noncommutative geometry. > For an intro to star products in deformation quantization see page 2 Don't. > of Kontsevich's (q-alg/9709040). > > Does the *-product have anything at all to do with composition of strings No, it isn't. It's an interesting toy model, however. > > or paths. > Yes, for example, the Moyal star product is equivalent to Witten's > star product in string field theory. > To see various ways in which the The first paper is relevant in relating the Witten and Moyal *. The > star product makes up strings check out (hep-th/0202087, 0101219, > 0012145 and 0107216). second is hardly an introduction. The third talks about the Moyal star product and M(atrix) theory, and the last is, as far as I can tell, utterly irrelevant. > Btw, perhaps it would be easier for you to learn about these topics if You're not really helping. > you talk to some mathematician/string theorist at UIUC, instead of > trying to learn solely via what you find on the internet. An expert > would at least probably know what the best introductory sources are. Aaron You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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