[Moderator's note: My apologies for the delay; this post ended up in
the wrong email folder for some reason. -P.H.]
On 6/1/12 6/1/12 - 2:08 AM, Anon E. Mouse wrote:
>>> To Newtonian physics a violation of conservation. Relativity makesHmmm. In GR, a Schwarzschild black hole contains no matter. It is simply
>>> things a bit better, in that the mass/energy that has gone dark can be
>>> understood, and perhaps even accounted for, BUT, this negative entropy
>>> seems to me to be a possible violation of the Equivalence Principle as
a configuration of the fields (metric) that is static and satisfies the
field equation with reasonable boundary conditions. Energy-momentum
conservation is satisfied throughout the manifold (including inside the
If one adds an infalling spherically symmetric mass shell to Schw.
[#] Speaking loosely; this is difficult to specify precisely.
>>> This, could be an important finding. It may, or may not, have aThis Higgs boson in the standard model of particle physics is COMPLETELY
>>> parallel in Quantum Theory in the elusive Higg's Boson. If it becomes
>>> demonstrable that the mass defect currently attributed to the Higg's
>>> Boson is actually a Schwarzshild type observational limit, then the
>>> stress energy actually present whithin the nucleus may only be
>>> directly observed nearly at, or below this limit, or indirectly
>>> observed as a excess of kinetic energy upon some types of nuclear
> In an EFE model of a black hole the mass/energy contained within theHmmm. You are confused, or at least using words funny. The Schwarzschild
> Swartzschild demonstrates its existence by the ongoing deformation of
> the stress energy tensor causing closed field lines and unobservable
> matter and light.
and Kerr manifolds have T=0 everywhere, including inside the horizon of
the black hole. That is, they have no mass/energy ANYWHERE.
Manifolds with a black hole and infalling matter have T!=0 for a while,
Note that it is not clear that one can describe the singularity as
Consider the limit points of all geodesics intersecting the
> If the mass/energy were truly gone so would be the distortion of theNot so. The field equation applies, and it permits the gravitation of a
> stress-energy and metrics. I.e. no lensing.
black hole to persist even though it "contains" no mass/energy (same
caveat as for "inside" above).
> Since the mass/energy is thereWHERE????? Having a location implies it is localizable in the manifold,
but it isn't.
Bottom line: black holes are WEIRD, and common language is inappropriate
> - a fact demonstrated by the on goingNot GR. In GR the metric of a vacuum manifold can have a configuration
> lensing, the heat, e/m, mass and kinetic energies are there also - a
> reasonable inference, based on theory.
with gravitation, such as Schw. and Kerr.
> If gravitation propagates according to realtivistic limits then aNon sequitur.
> great deal of stress-energy is also globally unaccounted.
> Thus, allYou are ignoring boundary conditions. Every differential equation
> the recognized forms of energy according to EFE become invisible to
> direct observation, distorting the proper accounting by creating a
> shortage which could be represented by an entropy term. However, there
> is presently no such entropy term in the EFE. Thus, I infer there may
> be an issue with the completeness of the EFE and further I begin to
> identify the character of that incompleteness.
requires them, and the field equation is no exception. The "stuff" you
seem to think is "missing" is actually outside the boundary of the
manifold. Yes, that is "missing" in some sense, but not in all senses.
Once boundary conditions are included (as they must be), I see no issue
with the "completeness of the EFE".
> If, black holes continuously accumulate mass/energy/entropy then theThis does not apply to GR.
> Equivalence principle is not just damaged in a way that an entropy
> term could possibly repair, instead it is actually broken. On the
> other hand if heat energy can escape black holes then equivalence is
> possibly still preserved.
> As to a mechanism for heat transfer that does not in and of itselfNo. Inside the horizon of a Schw. black hole, no timelike or null
> violate EFE... If there is molecular kinetic motion inside the
> Swartzshild radius then the black body radiations associated with the
> cooling of this matter and its loss of kinetic energy contributing to
> its bound condition could radiate upward with decreasing frequency and
> when absorbed increase the kinetics of a higher orbital molecule.
trajectory ever goes to higher "radius" (in the sense of closer to the
horizon or further from the limit points of the singularity). I'm pretty
sure that similar conditions apply to all black-hole manifolds.
Stated differently: every spherical surface inside the horizon is a
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.