Help with Twins Paradox variation
dsep...@austin.rr.com
Let there be a light on the y-axis at some y coordinate y=L connected
to a battery that is at the origin. Let there be ammeters at the
battery and at the light that measure the current flow at those
respective points. Let's say each ammeter measures one ampere when
the battery and light have zero relative velocity. Now let the
battery repeatedly travel back and forth along the x-axis from x=-10m
to x=10m at V=0.866c. This is analogous to the motion in the twins
paradox in which one twin is at rest (the light bulb) and the other
twin travels back and forth (the battery).
Do both ammeters measure the same current flow as the battery travels
back and forth, if averaged over the battery's trip?
If both ammeters do not read the same current, which ammeter reads the
larger value?
Thanks,
Dave Seppala
Hexenmeister
<dsep...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:43cd0a08...@news-server.austin.rr.com...
> Can anyone explain the following variation to the twin's paradox?
Yes.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/people_v_Baez.htm
--
Der alte Hexenmeister ist:
Sorcerer Androcles Dumbledore, Headmaster, hogwarts.physics
school for zauberlehrlings.
"One muggle's magic is another sorcerer's engineering"
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/how_to_be_as_smart_as_einstein.htm
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sundials.htm
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/RR_C7/RelativityRevealed.htm
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/E%5E2/EnergySquare.htm
Dirk Van de moortel
You just asked another question (for the 8th time, if I counted
correctly) on the thread "SR view of rotating cylinder", for which
you got an excellent and thoughtful reply from Todd in messages
7 and 9
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thread/7f47d1c9199f48cf
You also got a few questions and an exercise.
So before you fire your next question (which, if I counted correctly,
you asked 6 times before), it would be appropriate to give some
honest feedback to Todd to show that you have understood
anything about it.
But perhaps you really *want* to be treated like a troll?
It would make sense of course, since you have been treated like
one since 1999. Or do we take this one as well
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thread/6b63a146e8792941
?
Dirk Vdm
rbw...@juno.com
understand the concept of velocity. Consider your set of coordinates
again. What is the velocity of a photon traveling along the x-axis in
the negative direction relative to the set of coordinates?
Hint: It is not c.
Now consider the Lorentz equations. Have you ever wondered why
Lorentz or Einstein or somebody did not reduce the equations down?
Where I went to school we learned in Algebra I not to leave an equation
in the form of
x'=(x-vt)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
or
t'=(t-vx/c^2)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2).
So why doesn't someone reduce these equations down?
They can't and still have the equations work. Wherever c is found
in the equations , it has to be squared, or the equations cannot
describe a photon moving in the negative direction on the x axis. c in
the equations should be w, the velocity of light. Einstein's two
equations that represent the results of the Michelson-Morley
experiment, x=ct, x'=ct' are only true for a photon traveling in the +x
direction. A photon traveling the other way would be shown by x=(-c)t,
x'=(-c)t'.n These two equations should have been x=wt, x'=wt'.
If scientists ever learn the concept of velocity, perhaps they
will be able to discuss light.
Robert B. Winn
The Ghost In The Machine
<dsep...@austin.rr.com>
wrote
on Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:48:11 GMT
<43cd0a08...@news-server.austin.rr.com>:
The acceleration of the battery required would be considerable. The
time it takes for the battery to get from -10m to 0 is of course
about 38.1 ns. That gives us t; we have d = 1/2 a t^2, in Newtonian
math (I'm going to have to derive them properly but this should
give you an order of magnitude approximation).
So a = 2d/t^2 = 2*(10)/(38.1 * 10^-9)^2 = 1.378 * 10^16 N/kg.
To expect connections from battery to light bulb to survive that
sort of punishment is to expect miracles... :-)
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
Sue...
You are exactly right. Einsten could only model
retarded_potential, in real Cartesian space with
a path of *increasing* length.
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em1/lectures/node46.html
He never characterizes a clock_path ensemble for a decreasing
path in:
http://www.bartleby.com/173/12.html
because it is invald to include an advanced_potential
component in real space. It violates causality.
The motion of a distant can never occur before
the path delay from the perturbed charge has
elapsed.
Sue...
Dirk Van de moortel
<rbw...@juno.com> wrote in message news:1137546109.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> This kind of nonsense comes from the inability of scientists to
> understand the concept of velocity. Consider your set of coordinates
> again. What is the velocity of a photon traveling along the x-axis in
> the negative direction relative to the set of coordinates?
> Hint: It is not c.
> Now consider the Lorentz equations. Have you ever wondered why
> Lorentz or Einstein or somebody did not reduce the equations down?
> Where I went to school we learned in Algebra I not to leave an equation
> in the form of
> x'=(x-vt)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
> or
> t'=(t-vx/c^2)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2).
> So why doesn't someone reduce these equations down?
Realizing that these two equations are valid for all possible
combinations of x and t, and produce the corresponding
values for x' and t', how would you reduce them down?
> They can't and still have the equations work. Wherever c is found
> in the equations , it has to be squared
c appears squared in the above equations.
>, or the equations cannot
> describe a photon moving in the negative direction on the x axis. c in
> the equations should be w, the velocity of light.
We have given the name c to the speed of light, so when we
are working in two opposite directions, the velocity of light in
the direction of the x-axis is given by c, while the velocity in
the opposite direction is given by -c.
> Einstein's two
> equations that represent the results of the Michelson-Morley
> experiment, x=ct, x'=ct' are only true for a photon traveling in the +x
> direction. A photon traveling the other way would be shown by x=(-c)t,
> x'=(-c)t'.n
Of course.
The equation
x = c t
describes the path of a light signal in the +x direction.
As you can verify when plugging this in the transformation
and eliminating x and t to find the equation in the primed
frame, you get
x' = c t'.
Likewise, the equation
x = - c t
describes the path of a light signal in the -x direction.
As you can verify when plugging this in the transformation
and eliminating x and t to find the equation in the primed
frame, you get
x' = - c t'.
> These two equations should have been x=wt, x'=wt'.
> If scientists ever learn the concept of velocity, perhaps they
> will be able to discuss light.
What is wrong with what I just explained without using
the symbol w?
Dirk Vdm
Sue...
clearer why this is invalid. See Feynman/Wheeler solution
at URL for 'Advanced potential'.
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node50.html
Sue...
Dirk Van de moortel
"Sue..." <suzyse...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:1137580771.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
'The Jaybirds, as Lee's early band was called, were popular
locally and had success in Hamburg, Germany, following the
Beatles there in 1962. But it wasn't until the band moved to
London in 1966 and changed its name to TYA that
international success beckoned. The band secured a residency
at the legendary Marquee Club, and an invitation to the
famous Windsor Jazz & Blues Festival in 1967 led to their
first recording contract. The self titled debut album
surprisingly received play on San Francisco's underground
radio stations and was enthusiastically embraced by
listeners, including concert promoter Bill Graham, who
invited the band to tour America for the first time in the
summer of 1968. Audiences were immediately taken Lee's
distinctive, soulful, rapid fire guitar playing and the
band's innovative mix of blues, swing jazz and rock, and an
American love affair began. TYA would ultimately tour the
USA 28 times in 7 years, more than any other U.K. band.'
http://alvinlee.com/biography.html
Dirk Vdm
Sue...
Thanks,
I tho't you'd agree when you saw all the facts presented coherently.
Sue...
>
> Dirk Vdm
Dirk Van de moortel
"Sue..." <suzyse...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:1137583688.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
"COUMADIN should not be used when the hazard of
bleeding might be greater than the potential clinical benefits
of anticoagulation, such as:
- patients who are or may become pregnant
- blood diseases
- unsupervised patients with senility, alcoholism,
psychosis, or other lack of cooperation
- procedures with potential for uncontrollable bleeding.
COUMADIN should be used with caution in patients
who may be at risk of bleeding from trauma, surgery, or
coadministration with NSAIDs including aspirin. Caution
should be taken when administering to the elderly or
debilitated."
www.coumadin.com
Dirk Vdm
Sue...
We Know Driky Pee Pee,
H. G. Wells fans always yap like that after they make fools
of themselves.
Learn some physics:
http://web.mit.edu/8.02t/www/802TEAL3D/visualizations/light/index.htm
Sue...
>
> Dirk Vdm
Dirk Van de moortel
"Sue..." <suzyse...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:1137584343.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
That's for retired engineers like yourself.
I prefer the physics version http://www.plasma.uu.se/CED/Book/
Dirk Vdm
Sue...
Yes...Engineer's retire. Symbol shufflers have to spend their final
days chasing the bell-hop through purgatory to account for
missing the two dollars.
Can you find this in your favored text?
<< We can see that we have now escaped from the apparent
action at a distance nature of Coulomb's law and the Biot-Savart
law. Electromagnetic information is carried by spherical waves in
the vector and scalar potentials, and, therefore, travels at the
velocity of light. Thus, if we change the position of a charge then
a distant charge can only respond after a time delay sufficient for
a spherical wave to propagate from the former to the latter charge. >>
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node50.html
Sue...
>
> Dirk Vdm
Dirk Van de moortel
"Sue..." <suzyse...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:1137586081....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
"Most psychological theories would argue that it would be
extremely difficult for people to behave randomly (more
about this later). There are three levels to this exercise,
each subsuming an earlier level. Start with level 1 and work
up either to the level your instructor wants you to do or
until you can't stand it!"
http://wetzel.psych.rhodes.edu/random/intro.html
Dirk Vdm
Sue...
I take that to mean your text doesn't cover retarded potential.
As that is the only connection Special reativity has with
electromagnetic phenomena perhaps the text is not
about physics. I won't bother to download it.
Thanks for checking.
Sue...
>
> Dirk Vdm
Dirk Van de moortel
"Sue..." <suzyse...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:1137589447.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
You can take it like any other blind uninterested drunk
will take it.
And besides: "This version of ICQ2Go! may not include
certain features, functionalities, or services that may be
available on other versions of ICQ, including privacy and
security features and their default settings. Furthermore,
privacy and security settings configured while using other
versions of ICQ may not apply when using ICQ2Go!. You are,
therefore, advised to carefully study the relevant and
applicable security and privacy features before using this
ICQ version. Click here for additional information about
ICQ2Go!."
Dirk Vdm
rbw...@juno.com
cannot get the equations to work using c the speed of light unless c is
squared wherever it appears in the equations because if you are talking
about a photon traveling in the -x direction, its velocity is -c. But
notice what you do in the equation for t'.
t'=(t-vx/c^2)sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
You introduce the true value of the velocity of the photon by
the term x, which is really (-c)t. What were you trying to hide?
It is plain to see that the equations are about velocity of
light, not speed of light.
Robert B. Winn
Dirk Van de moortel
<rbw...@juno.com> wrote in message news:1137598650.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Well, if you were in algebra I you would get it marked wrong. You
> cannot get the equations to work using c the speed of light unless c is
> squared wherever it appears in the equations because if you are talking
> about a photon traveling in the -x direction, its velocity is -c. But
> notice what you do in the equation for t'.
>
> t'=(t-vx/c^2)sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
The question was:
> x'=(x-vt)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
> or
> t'=(t-vx/c^2)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2).
> So why doesn't someone reduce these equations down?
Realizing that these two equations are valid for all possible
combinations of x and t, and produce the corresponding
values for x' and t', how would you reduce them down?
That was a question and you have not answered.
But let's hold back, and call this exercise [4], and before
you have a go at it, can you, as exercise [1], explain what
the physical meaning of the variables in these equations
are? In other words, what do these letters represent:
x: ?
t: ?
x': ?
t': ?
v: ?
c: ?
>
> You introduce the true value of the velocity of the photon by
> the term x, which is really (-c)t. What were you trying to hide?
Exercise [2]: can you explain in the context of following equations:
x = c t
x' = c t' ,
what is the physical meaning of the variables
x: ?
t: ?
x': ?
t': ?
c: ?
And likewise, exercise [3], in the context of the equations
x = - c t
x' = -c t' ,
what is the physical meaning of the variables
x: ?
t: ?
x': ?
t': ?
c: ?
>
> It is plain to see that the equations are about velocity of
> light, not speed of light.
When you have made the 4 exercises, I will give exercise [5]
about this sentence.
Dirk Vdm
Hexenmeister
Hexenmeister.
Dirk Van de moortel
"Hexenmeister" <vanq...@broom.Mickey> wrote in message news:tNuzf.156173$D47....@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Who are you writing to, Winn?
To the Zombie Woof behind your eyes.
Dirk Vdm
rbw...@juno.com
What are you trying to hide?
Robert B. Winn
rbw...@juno.com
that the velocity of light is a constant. As I understand it, you are
saying that -186,000 = +186,000. Could you show the proof of this ,
please?
Robert B. Winn
dej4
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Welders.htm
ste...@nomail.com
Where did Einstein say that the _velocity_ of light is a constant?
He said the speed of light is a constant, but speed and velocity
are different things.
Stephen
Dirk Van de moortel
<rbw...@juno.com> wrote in message news:1137674283.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> What is wrong with using the symbol w and reducing the equations down?
> What are you trying to hide?
I un-hid the context:
http://users.telenet.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/TryingToHide.html
Good one.
Even for a welder.
When you are ready to give an answer, feel free.
And then make the 4 exercises I gave you, will you?
Then we can start talking about any questions you might
have.
Dirk Vdm
Dirk Van de moortel
<ste...@nomail.com> wrote in message news:dqohc8$ssu$2...@news.msu.edu...
Einstein used the German word "geschwindigkeit" in his 1905
article. It is one word for speed and velocity. In Dutch we also
have only one word it: "snelheid".
Everyone (except the retards on this newsgroup) knows that,
and from the context it is usually clear what is meant. If there
is ambiguity, we add the predicate "vector" or "magnitude".
You can try to explain this to a retard, but he will not
understand. It has been explained to Winn and to Androcles,
and to all the other retards. They don't seem to understand.
For some strange reason these people like to be treated like
retards. So they really are retards.
Dirk Vdm
rbw...@juno.com
I am talking about what Einstein said he was talking about,
light. Einstein was the one who set up the problem, not me. The
coordinates represent the positions of photons on the x axis. If x=ct,
then x gives the position of a photon emitted at the origin of K at
t=0 proceeding in the +x direction on the x axis. If x'=ct', then x'
gives the position of a photon on the x' axis in K'.
t is the time the photon has been traveling since it was emitted
at the origin of K, t' is the time the photon has been traveling since
it was emitted at the origin of K'. In effect, we are using the
photons as clocks.
The same is true of photons traveling the other way. x=(-c)t
shows the position of a photon emitted at x=0,t=0, traveling in the -x
direction. x'=(-c)t' shows the position of a photon emitted at the
origin of K' at t'=0 traveling in the -x' direction.
c=186,000 miles per second.
These terms define themselves. What is it that you are finding
so difficult?
Robert B. Winn
Dirk Van de moortel
<rbw...@juno.com> wrote in message news:1137961135.3...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Dirk,
> I am talking about what Einstein said he was talking about,
> light. Einstein was the one who set up the problem, not me. The
> coordinates represent the positions of photons on the x axis. If x=ct,
> then x gives the position of a photon emitted at the origin of K at
> t=0 proceeding in the +x direction on the x axis. If x'=ct', then x'
> gives the position of a photon on the x' axis in K'.
That was exercise [2].
Now you reply again to the same message, and do
exercises [1], [3] and [4], but you include the message
to which you reply, and answer like
x: ?
t: ?
x': ?
etc...
where you replace the question marks with text.
Don't reply to this message.
Dirk Vdm