Idea for finding a perfect society...
soul8o8
1) Isolate an area of the Earth, preferable a village or a small city and
its nearest agricultural surroundings, from the rest of the world.
2) Do random inofficial tests on the inhabitants in this area to see whether
they are happy or not.
3) Remove those who are unhappy and leave the rest.
4) As time approaches eternity the percentage of happy inhabitants will
approach 100% within the area.
hifive!
/oscar
Sir Frederick
Don't have to do the waiting for eternity thing, just force them all to take
a good dose of crack in minute one, by minute five ALL will be happy,
experiment over.
In your scenario are you trying to do a culling social experiment or a
genetic breeding kind, depends on how long is "eternity" I guess.
Best,
Martin
sir freddie the unique near sd,ca
*************************
Phrase of the week :
" Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
-- Shakespeare(? - ?)
:-))))Snort!)
*************************
Michael Burnem
"soul8o8" <sou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:m3Ju8.1415$p56.3...@newsb.telia.net...> Fun theoretical experiment:
Then you would have to remove everyone!
No one is happy all the time.
soul8o8
"Michael Burnem" <sorry....@like.spam> wrote in message
news:LUKu8.498$2E.1...@news2.ulv.nextra.no...
Yes, but you do random tests. Meaning the inhabitants are not tested all the
time. Only on random occassions and in such a rate that there is time for
new inhabitants to be born.
So at first humans are perhaps only happy 1% of their lives. Most will be
removed. But as time approaches eternity that percentage will also approach
100%...
And yes, this is breeding. This small experiment is happening all the time
all around us only people are not removed based on their happiness. (And
that is why we are not happy all the time. Nature lets us keep the ability
to be sad, angry etc..)
hifive!
/oscar
Michael Burnem
I think i see what your saying.
I allso think everyone can achive liberation from their mental
afflictions(which cause suffering/unhappiness) through practice, and not
based on who their parents are.
The problem with your theory is that... ok so they are happy, but what will
it take to make them unhappy again?
There will allways be something to make them unhappy or make them suffer
aslong as they are not free from mental afflictions.
Ofcourse in theory they would probably learn to cope with everything, but it
would never stop, so we have the world we see before us =D
soul8o8
> I allso think everyone can achive liberation from their mental
> afflictions(which cause suffering/unhappiness) through practice, and not
> based on who their parents are.
> The problem with your theory is that... ok so they are happy, but what
will
> it take to make them unhappy again?
Remove the tests and stop removing those who are unhappy.
> There will allways be something to make them unhappy or make them suffer
> aslong as they are not free from mental afflictions.
One can break a leg or loose a son and stil be happy. It's just feelings.
> Ofcourse in theory they would probably learn to cope with everything, but
it
> would never stop, so we have the world we see before us =D
Yes it would never stop. Eternity is for ever.
hifive!
/oscar
galaxicon2000
Oh dear, I was hoping to find a perscription for a
perfect society, and all I found was a way to
eliminate unhappiness. Here's an easier way:
Kill everyone. No People = No Unhappiness.
But seriously, the point is that a perfect society
is (at least in my opinion) much more than just
not-unhappy, or even all-happy.
soul8o8
> perfect society, and all I found was a way to
> eliminate unhappiness. Here's an easier way:
> Kill everyone. No People = No Unhappiness.
I'm glad someone can see the irony in this...
> But seriously, the point is that a perfect society
> is (at least in my opinion) much more than just
> not-unhappy, or even all-happy.
I agree. I think that you are in fact the first to object to that this
experiment,if successfull, would cause a perfect society. Instead people get
hang up with its credibility in being successfull.
hifive!
/oscar
grelbr
[snip]
> One can break a leg or loose a son and stil be happy. It's just feelings.
Ok. Let's see here.
-> Insert test methodology here.
The test will look for some collection of indicators of "happy."
Whatever that may be. Those who proffer up indicators that
they are "happy" will get to stay. Those who don't are culled.
Now, whatever those indicators are, they get selected for.
So keep smiling, the cullers are watching. Smile and the
world smiles with you. Frown and you get culled.
So your scheme does not produce "happy." It produces people who
can still smile (or whatever your tests indicate is "happy")
even when bad things happen to them.
In other words, your test is totally fucked. When bad things
happen you are not supposed to be happy. In the ordinary course
of things it is very bad to get a broken leg. Actually being
happy over it is psychopathic. Your scheme will produce either
a collection of consumate dissemblers, or a collection of total
psychopaths.
What horseshit.
grelbr
Nick Sheldon
examples of mentalistic fictions? As a good Watsonian I have to respond to
this stimulus.
Nick Sheldon
Author of the forthcoming book: "You Don't Think, You Don't Feel - the myth
of thought and emotion"
Iain Meek
tending toward I think! People who watch films and play games in which
people are torn to shreds, it becomes every day life in some respects,
makes the senses numb to it, so when the real thing happens it doesn't
seem _as_ bad as it otherwise would... though stereotypical Americans
are safe from this, because they cry when just about anything which
doesn't suit them happens... much like young children.
Anders Lindman
You don't need an isolate area. The whole human race is going in this
direction. Evolution is pointing in one direction only: UP.
Happiness is a way for evolution/nature to show the natural way. If
you take crack you will be happy for a moment, but this is not the
same as constant happiness (you cannot fool nature forever). Constant
happiness is only achieved through increased wisdom. The human race is
going through a zone evolving from an animal race into a human race.
At the moment the human race is about 50% human (natural ego) and 50%
animal (primitive ego).
/AL
>
>
> hifive!
> /oscar
Chawnika
only be defined in the eyes of the one judging. Who's to be the judge.
What my be perfect to one, may be just the complete opposite to
another.
anders_...@hotmail.com (Anders Lindman) wrote in message news:<bc8851ce.02042...@posting.google.com>...
abdul hai
"soul8o8" <sou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<m3Ju8.1415$p56.3...@newsb.telia.net>...
Carebear
Balance
The war between all opposites is the basis of life. If we took away
any one thing society would collpase.
The ability to know fear and hate and sadness, makes us strive for the
happiness. We are pulled in both directions and the actual journey is
the whole point.
A good example I think that we all have expereinced is when there is a
person at work that everyone hates to work with and we all find the
time to vent about this person. Then the person leaves for any number
of reasons. Everyone looks around and feels the void. Inevitably there
will be another target, and the whole mess starts again. Even though
it is considered wrong to engage in this type of behaviour, it pulls
us and we must try to refrain.
Life is exciting trying to acheive this balance and when it is close I
am happiest.
Karen
Überdude
Sounds just like cowboys and Indians to me.
Xee
said:
Eventually, you'll get down to one person, and their loneliness will
cause unhappiness. Too bad, so sad.
:P
--
-Xee
Found my calling as a part time bowler
Traded my wife for a new three hole-er
-Moldy Peaches "We're not those kids"
neil
Ive arrived late on this one but where was the link made between perfect and happy?
Do we need to define 'perfect'----a la Milton or More?
Adieu
Quizical one
Wesker99
have opinions, there can be no perfect society.
Think about it. Only if everything was run by some sort of god,
eveyones needs cant be asnwered.
-Wesker99
Wesker99
Singrou
ami
> Philosophy is the most distant place of which I am unknown of very much.
In the beginning, everything was perfect. We all came from one energy
source which I would like to call Love. In the beginning there was
only ONE. But the thesis creates it's own anti-thesis. The essence of
love is freedom. And because of freedom, the energy of love gave birth
or spun-off and created different individuals/beings which all made up
the ONE. I think the question of finding a perfect society is
answered when we realize that each of us is just a part of the ONE.
In reality, each individual is part of the whole. Separation is
artificial. It is created by the EGO. The EGO separates the
individual to the whole. This causes our alienation. If we can just
all go back and connect with the life FORCE, with the SOURCE, then
maybe, we can find the perfect society. As it was in the beginning and
so it is in the end, we are all perfect.
Roger Johansson
>I think the question of finding a perfect society is
>answered when we realize that each of us is just a part of the ONE.
>In reality, each individual is part of the whole. Separation is
>artificial. It is created by the EGO. The EGO separates the
>individual to the whole. This causes our alienation. If we can just
>all go back and connect with the life FORCE, with the SOURCE, then
>maybe, we can find the perfect society. As it was in the beginning and
>so it is in the end, we are all perfect.
What forces are creating this alienation?
How are people alienated from the whole?
The strong ego is created when the whole, the natural community
between people, is destroyed.
When young boys are forced by our culture to stand for themselves,
when young girls learn to handle the world instead of just being a
part of it.
The methods to handle the world become a barrier between the self and
the whole.
We live in a culture which put so much value on individual freedom
that we have lost the natural sense of togetherness.
At the bottom of it all we can see how the socially powerful and the
capitalism forces us to be individually responsible for taking care of
ourselves, cooperation has been replaced by competition, togetherness
has been replaced by strong egos.
These forces split up natural communities like family and friends, and
we are forced to fight, each individual for himself.
From another thread:
>If we had "Free Will" we would be God. So if we do we're not
>using it!!
Maybe some people are like God and have free will and the others are
not aware of that and cannot use that kind of awareness.
In many social situations some people seem to have nearly hypnotic
powers over others, maybe that is what all this talk about God and
free will is really about.
The powerful ones have too much adrenaline in the bottom of their
personalities, and they have backup from other strong ones. The tame
ones have been used by the powerful ones too much and they have gotten
used to obey and stay calm.
The more power the socially strong have, the more powerless the weak
ones will be. That might be good for the rich and powerful in the
world, because it creates a strong order in society, but it is not
good for the people who have to live with this dichotomy between the
strong self, the ego, and their inner souls.
I am trying to stand in the middle, between the wild people and the
tame ones. I do not want to trample on other people or get trampled
upon.
When the hypnotizer uses his powers over the weak people he is
reinforcing the dependence and weakness of the subserviant people.
The created people are standing on a basis of extreme mental stress.
They use this to dominate the natural and naive people.
They always manage to convince themselves that they are doing good
deeds, creating new socially powerful people.
The leading elite is reproducing itself, so the system can continue,
millenium after millenium.
Some intelligent people have protested against this social system
throughout the history, like the early vedic authors in India, Lao-Tse
in China, Jesus in the middle east, and many more.
But they are always seen as children who refuse to become real
grown-ups and their words are ignored, or interpreted as a support for
the system.
The social system has very strong mechanisms for getting rid of all
opposition, the taboo against talking about these things in open has
led to a lot of symbolism and fuzzy language.
Only people who agree with the system can understand the hidden
language and make themselves understood. The secrecy is a very strong
conservative force. Only views which fit into the accepted paradigm
are understood and accepted.
The socially powerful people are very excited and can easily become
restless, they need exciting entertainment. That is why there is so
much violence and intensive feelings in the media today.
This social culture is also the reason for drug abuse, and drug use.
Most people have a lot of pain and unresolved knots in their nervous
systems.
Roger J. http://utopianow.cjb.net
Miller
"ami" <AMI...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:efaedba6.02061...@posting.google.com...
What is needed is the merger, the communion if you will, of the thesis and
anti-thesis--of LOVE and EGO. We now have the perfect joining-together, or
LEGO.
LEGO is the answer to our dilemma. Pieces that always fit, creating a
seamless, always changeable whole. Perfect!
Scott
Day Brown
on the isle of Thera; a city which Castledon says was originally
called 'At-Lunus' ie, the city of the moon. Buried five times
deeper than Pompei, a city several times larger, in an eruption
that was 50-100 times worse than mt St. Helens. 1628 BCE.
When they dug in the streets to get an idea of earlier levels
of occupation, they found a municipal sewer water system, which
like Rejkyavik Iceland, also piped hot water and steam heat into
the houses and bathrooms. Hot and cold running water with flushing
commodes in the time of the Egyptian 12th dynasty.
The ground radar suggests that they have only dug out maybe 10%
of the whole city. They havnt found any slums yet. I dont think
they will. Other Minoan sites of the same era dont have hovels.
They lived in large communal houses with a central workspace;
Mostly weaving, but also pottery, metalwork, jewelry... and the
craftsmanship of the Minoans was superb.
The throne room at Knossus is another tip off. We all know what
to expect, the high dias with the wall behind it decorated with
the figure of the monarch and his goon squad glaring down at all
comers. And this in a grand space after passing thru a monumental
palace full of gate keepers and bureacrats. AT Knossus, the throne
room is the first door on your right after arriving from the coast
road. It is the same size as a classroom, and behind the throne,
the wall is decorated with flowers.
Roger Johansson
>What is needed is the merger, the communion if you will, of the thesis and
>anti-thesis--of LOVE and EGO. We now have the perfect joining-together, or
>LEGO.
>
>LEGO is the answer to our dilemma. Pieces that always fit, creating a
>seamless, always changeable whole. Perfect!
I do not think so.
What lovers do is convince each other that everything is wonderful, no
matter how stressed and strange their state of mind is before making
love. That is not a reliable basis for sensible thinking after making
love.
Love in a wider sense than sex:
Love between people is also a lot of conviction. But it can also be a
way to dissolve knots in the nervous system and a way to solve
problems in the social world.
Love between people in a group is a good way to create a good social
environment and a basis for solving all kinds of problems between
people.
But our culture is usually a hinder for love between more than two
people, Our culture is based on the classic family situation, one man
and one woman, and their children.
Our culture rather forbids love outside the marriage than it is
encouraging it.
The isolated ego is the basis for this culture, and that is also the
basis for the monotheistic religions which our culture is based upon.
Just like pain relieving medicines love can be used in two ways, to
relieve pain while curing the problem, or covering up the pain without
doing something to cure the problem.
Covering up a problem without curing it is of course not good, then it
is a drug abuse.
Relieving pain while curing the problem is a good thing to do. That is
a proper use of love, or pain relieving medicines.
Pain itself is often the problem in itself. People often have a lot of
pain in their nervous system, that is a result of living in a culture
built on pain and stress.
Love, or opiates, can dissolve the knots in the nervous system, which
is good if we can also remove the cause of the pain, changing the
social situation or other ways to lower the level of stress.
If you use love or opiates to be able to live with the stress you are
abusing love. That is not unusual in this world today.
People accept to live in a violent and stressed situation and use
painkillers to be able to take even more pain and stress.
That is the basis for alcoholism and other forms of drug abuse.
When stress and love is mixed, adrenaline plus endorphine, you get
speed, and that is what this culture is really about.
People make love and watch violent movies, they drink alcohol and work
too hard, they take painkillers and continue to live in hostile and
stressing environments, etc..
When two young persons are going to marry in our culture it is a
standard procedure to out them through some hard time before the
marriage, and in many countries the man is beaten up the day before
the marriage, to raise the stress level as much as possible before he
gets the pain relief of love and togetherness with his wife.
The love in the marriage thus becomes a speeded love, it is a social
way to create the same effect as amphetamine.
We live in a society which is a big drug factory, and it is socially
accepted to be exstatically speeded if you do it in the traditional
way with the blessings of a priest and the society.
In our culture the men compete who can be most stressed and still full
of love, a competition in how to be the most speeded and socially most
powerful person.
Instead of solving problems and create a more natural and relaxed
social environment they are trying to maximize both the level of
violence and the painkilling love, or drugs, or both.
Sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll.
Or the holy marriage, as other people would express it.
This culture is the reason behind mobbing in schools, the children are
supposed to learn to handle a tough and hostile world, and soothe the
mental pain with love and socially accepted forms of togetherness,
rough love.
Children are getting used to a tough language at an early age, small
children call each other whores and fags, they threaten each other and
often carry a knife or a gun to school, to prepare for the even
tougher world of the grown-ups.
When people get used to a high level of accumulated pain in their
nervous systems they become chronically stressed, and they will
develop a ego which balances enormous amounts of pain and love, which
leads to an unnatural mental situation.
That is why they become easy prey to hypnotizers and beautiful women,
hustlers and other types of mental manipulators.
It's a wonderful world, ain't it?
My conclusion is that we should not accept a world of stress and hate,
even if we get lots of love and drugs to relieve the pain.
Roger J.