Hi,

Anybody have any ideas how nanotech is going to help with energy storage,
besides stronger materials for flywheel energy storage systems, since the
limitation of non hydrocarbon powered transport systems is the energy density
of the onboard energy store. Also any ideas on the maximum energy density
attainable with nanotech.

The main reason I ask is since the reserves of hydrocarbons are limited, and I
like to ride motorcycles, I cannot see anything on the horizon that is
lightweight and stores enough energy to be practicable on a motorcycle.

Mark.
--
Hutch - Perth - W.A.

[ Robert Freitas Jr. has a chapter on energy storage in his book Nanomedicine.
  See for example http://www.nanomedicine.com/6.1.html .
  Buy a print edition; worth the money.  -JimL ]

Hydrogen stored in nanotubes is supposed to be quite dense.
Or, you can make hydrocarbons from hydrogen, and CO2.
As you can get hydrogen from the water vapour in the air, and nanotech
is likely to make solar panels better, then it can really help too.

Nanotech may also make flywheels a lot smaller, and potentially safer, so
that in a crash for example, the flywheel container bursts, releasing lots
of marble sized flywheel containers, that bounce around, and eventually
discharge safely.

The motorcycle would also benefit from even early nanotech, if cheap enough.
Not to mention the weight advantages possible in construction.
Wheels may be reinforced better, and in the longer term, form themselves
into holes in the road, or use piton like devices, for ultimate road-holding.

(See the book "Farewell horizontal")

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/    |  mailto:inquisi...@i.am |             Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------- -----
Prosperity and ruin issue from the power of the tongue.
Therefore, guard yourself against thoughtless speech.

In article <t19jfu4iulg...@corp.supernews.com>, Ian Stirling
<Inquisi...@I.am> [talking about energy storage for motorcycle use]
wrote:

Extraction of hydrogen from the air requires energy.  If you're going
to do that on-the-roll using the energy obtained from a solar panel,
then it is more efficient to use the solar panel directly.  Storage of
energy needs to occur at a rate at least equal to its use.

A flywheel can certainly act as an energy storage device but any
dependence on kinetic energy is going to have to handle the
dissipation of that energy.  Remember that this flywhell has to be
strong enough to handle sufficient charge to drive this machine for a
couple of hours.  While in normal use that energy dissipation is
controlled over time, in an accident that dissipation may occur very
rapidly in a mechanical object.  The fact that there are thousands or
millions of little pieces of flywheel simply means that there will be
that many more holes in you.  Even wrapping a flywheel in some type of
diamondoid casing simply means that you have a very hard and very
energetic object to handle in a very short time.

Billy

   How would this be different from studs? (Which some states/provinces
limit to winter months, or forbid completely. Of course, nanotech has the
potential for self-repairing roads....)

   Frank

Not on the roll, when parked up.

That was my idea, make it so that in a crash, at least most of the
flywheels depart the scene, and bounce around, inside containment, rather
than just letting go.
Or maybe hover, though this has issues too.

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/    |  mailto:inquisi...@i.am |             Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------- -----
Prosperity and ruin issue from the power of the tongue.
Therefore, guard yourself against thoughtless speech.

Can you drive up walls with studs?

Plus, imagine smart suspension, that can see the terrain ahead,
driving up and down staircase type terrain, without bumps.

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/    |  mailto:inquisi...@i.am |             Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------- -----
Windows 2000, software for next millenia.     <latin pun alert>  - Ian Stirling.

You've read _Snow Crash_, I see.

--
Mark Atwood   | The summit of Mount Everest is marine limestone.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra

No, actually I was thinking of "Farewell Horizontal", by someone
with J's and K's in the name, that I can't quite recall.

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/    |  mailto:inquisi...@i.am |             Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------- -----
 <Squawk> Pieces of eight!
 <Squawk> Pieces of eight!
 <Squawk> Pieces of eight!
 <Squawk> Pieces of eight!
 <Squawk> Pieces of eight!
 <Squawk> Pieces of nine!
 <SYSTEM HALTED: parroty error!>

[ This is all related to nanotechnology how? Besides the topic drift, I was
  also going to reject this post because of the parroty error.
  -Jim "the humorless moderator" L ]

In article <t1c6854j3m9...@corp.supernews.com>,

Understatement of the century?

I have a plot for a sci-fi story in which 'roads' are a major resource.
The tar has been converted to assemblers and they provide the world's
solar power, communication channels, underground transport facilities
(everything from piped water and hydrocarbons to vacuum linear accelerator
conduits for moving objects - up to and including people)...

.... and a computing facility composed of uncountable linked computing
elements!

You can skim along the surface as well, safe skate boarding at 100 Km/hr
without the skates :-)

'road' seems too small a word, somehow.

Gary

The adsorption of hydrogen gas into single-walled nanotubes has been
studied using grand canonical Monte Carlo computer simulations. The
results for U.S. Department of Energy showed SWNTs to be unsuitable.

If anyone has followed up hydrogen storage in organic/inorganic
nanotubes practically, I would be grateful for any leads.

Ray.

   So you're saying that they'd not just depend on friction, but would
(very rapidly, where wheels are involved) physically bond and let go?

   Okay, though depending on how bad you expect it to be, you'd still need
the ground clearance of a giraffe. (Not saying you *couldn't,* though...)

   Frank

   I think Heinlein's been there. Sounds a bit like 'The Roads Must Roll.'
I think Clarke wrote a non-fiction essay on something like that too, though
my memory's fuzzier on that. But I think he did say something about the problems
of stepping to/from higher speed zones. Nano based materials might make smoother
transitions possible, compared to conventional conveyors adjacent to each other,
though...

   Frank

   This is also mentioned in the December Scientific American. They note that
nanotubes could store hydrogen for release to a fuel cell, and lithium ions
for battery applications. But the best uptake is currently 6.5 percent for
hydrogen. Too soon to be sure about lithium.

   Frank

The hydrogen proton battery is the most promising form of chemical
energy storage obtainable through nano techniques. This same process
occurs inside energy mitochondria in every cell in your body (The proton
gradient). Which makes this a biomimetic device as well. This "Proton
battery" will have a cycle life of about 100,000,000 cycles! and energy
density of 250 watt hours per pound!

Michael Chownyk,Ontario Canada

Petrol has an energy density of 14 kWh/kg according to the mech. engineering
dept of the University of W.A. so my bike has an energy store of almost 228 kWh
so for an equivalent in this battery would take something weighing aprox 911 kg
as opposed to 16 odd kg of petrol in a volume of 22 l, so I think the front
runner is still hydrogen in carbon nanotubes, assuming they can get the
absorbtion rates high enough to store approx. 6 kg of hydrogen into something
that would fit on a 230 kg bike. Hopefully they can also get release rates of
approx. 2.6 kg/h, plus whatever is required to make up for assorted power
losses in the system to feed the 99 kW motor :)

Mark.

--
Hutch - Perth - W.A.

Well, yes.
But, motorcycle engines are relatively inefficiant, even for IC engines.
I'd guess maybe 40kWh is available as actual work at the wheels.

Or, 280Kg for li-ion, 160Kg for this "proton battery"

How many times have you actually used all of that though?

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/    |  mailto:inquisi...@i.am |             Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------- -----
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that I cannot change, the
courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies
of those I had to kill because they pissed me off.                  -  Random

Hmm. Why bother carrying a huge energy supply on-board? You should
only need a small one for off road usage. Just have the road itself
supply you with energy. Make all of the roads into high efficiency
solar panels, and have the motorcycle or car get the energy through
it's wheels. You would only need a small storage capacity in the
vehicle for things like parking in your driveway, or short off road
trips.