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dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 20, 2011, 2:03:35 PM10/20/11
to
solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
starting from the obvious: Damascus.
As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda, and in that
area, the effectiveness is IMVHO reduced because of the limits in the
air ops caused by the large range (not only the TOT, but also the
fatigue on pilots and engines)
Now 6th F can freely deploy E of Crete, it's a matter of time and
encouragements of the Syrian opposition to start the downfall of the
syrian dictatorship.
How ? a look even on a generic map of Syria reveal the operational
nightmare: Damascus can be taken only from north, because of the neutral
Lebanon west and the must-be-keeped-neutral-at-all-costs Eretz Ysrael
south, and from E is a major PITA for the USA, because led to a tragic
"back to square one" in Iraq.
Turkish generals are no fools (actually they're by far the best in the
Muslim world) and they known how to raise the price of their
intervention (after all, they're *actually* Byzantine Generals...) and
this coupled with the rather unstable Greece is a very dangerous setting
(Turks engaged south is tantamount to inviting Greek gov't to "wag the
dog" with a backstab against Turkey)
better follow a slow and methodical approach, Libya-like suggesting to
Syrian rebels to secure the portual cities, and work their way in the
admittedly difficult route to Damascus.
The support, both humanitarian and military from the sea route can
enable the reducing of the unknown (Syrian coast defence, and perhaps
also hezbollah's, whose have proven to have not few capabilities) inside
an ONU framework, whose in turn enable the air war, whose can be done
only by a small surge of CVBGs (three ? four ? all depends on the
Iranian attitude and the situation around Suez...)
Simplified, is more or less the same pattern of the Libyan war, but USN
must be much more active (I'm rather sure that even with a regime change
here, Italian Navy (and the two Italian CVLs), trust me, will refuse to
engage East of Matapan (the issue of the "Guadalajara syndrome", whose
is worst than the "Vietnam syndrome") and the French CVN availability is
rather unpredictable, for the now well-known reasons)
all this, obviously IMO....
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
starting from the obvious: Damascus.
As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda, and in that
area, the effectiveness is IMVHO reduced because of the limits in the
air ops caused by the large range (not only the TOT, but also the
fatigue on pilots and engines)
Now 6th F can freely deploy E of Crete, it's a matter of time and
encouragements of the Syrian opposition to start the downfall of the
syrian dictatorship.
How ? a look even on a generic map of Syria reveal the operational
nightmare: Damascus can be taken only from north, because of the neutral
Lebanon west and the must-be-keeped-neutral-at-all-costs Eretz Ysrael
south, and from E is a major PITA for the USA, because led to a tragic
"back to square one" in Iraq.
Turkish generals are no fools (actually they're by far the best in the
Muslim world) and they known how to raise the price of their
intervention (after all, they're *actually* Byzantine Generals...) and
this coupled with the rather unstable Greece is a very dangerous setting
(Turks engaged south is tantamount to inviting Greek gov't to "wag the
dog" with a backstab against Turkey)
better follow a slow and methodical approach, Libya-like suggesting to
Syrian rebels to secure the portual cities, and work their way in the
admittedly difficult route to Damascus.
The support, both humanitarian and military from the sea route can
enable the reducing of the unknown (Syrian coast defence, and perhaps
also hezbollah's, whose have proven to have not few capabilities) inside
an ONU framework, whose in turn enable the air war, whose can be done
only by a small surge of CVBGs (three ? four ? all depends on the
Iranian attitude and the situation around Suez...)
Simplified, is more or less the same pattern of the Libyan war, but USN
must be much more active (I'm rather sure that even with a regime change
here, Italian Navy (and the two Italian CVLs), trust me, will refuse to
engage East of Matapan (the issue of the "Guadalajara syndrome", whose
is worst than the "Vietnam syndrome") and the French CVN availability is
rather unpredictable, for the now well-known reasons)
all this, obviously IMO....
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Derek Lyons
Oct 20, 2011, 3:42:29 PM10/20/11
to
"dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me> wrote:
>solved definitively the Libyan issue
Yes, Libya has a stable and reasonable goverment.. . oh, wait.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
>solved definitively the Libyan issue
Yes, Libya has a stable and reasonable goverment.. . oh, wait.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Joe Osman
Oct 20, 2011, 4:39:55 PM10/20/11
to
Camptodactyly syndrome, Guadalajara type 2 is characterised by
intrauterine growth retardation, dwarfism, camptodactyly of all
fingers, bilateral hallux valgus, short second, fourth and fifth toes,
patella hypoplasia, short neck, low-set ears, microcephaly, and cuboid
vertebral bodies. It has been described in only two sisters (aged 6
and 3 years). The mode of inheritance appears to be autosomal
recessive. *Author: Orphanet (May 2004)*.
Joe
William Black
Oct 20, 2011, 5:01:59 PM10/20/11
to
On 20/10/11 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda,
The 6th Fleet can operate under land based air cover anywhere near Cyprus.
> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda,
--
William Black
Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...
Jonathan
Oct 20, 2011, 6:12:49 PM10/20/11
to
"dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me> wrote in message
news:XnZnq.87688$GZ3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>
> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda, and in that
> area, the effectiveness is IMVHO reduced because of the limits in the air
> ops caused by the large range (not only the TOT, but also the fatigue on
> pilots and engines)
Syria is imploding all by itself. Dictatorships have a way of shattering
> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>
> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda, and in that
> area, the effectiveness is IMVHO reduced because of the limits in the air
> ops caused by the large range (not only the TOT, but also the fatigue on
> pilots and engines)
almost overnight once the people lose their fear.
The next target has been, and will continue to be, Iran.
Until that country returns to democracy, the Middle East
will never settle down.
>
> Best regards from Italy,
> dott. Piergiorgio.
s
William Black
Oct 20, 2011, 7:13:31 PM10/20/11
to
On 20/10/11 23:12, Jonathan wrote:
>
> Syria is imploding all by itself.
No it isn't.
>
> Syria is imploding all by itself.
It won't fall any more than Gadaffy's Libya would have fallen without
NATO pushing it.
There are far too many people with blood on their hands to allow the
government to fall.
Unless someone outside gives them some help they're not going to make
any progress, and if someone from outside intervenes on the tyrant's
side he'll quickly triumph, as the despotic tyrant in Bahrain triumphed
when the Saudis came in on his side.
Peter Skelton
Oct 20, 2011, 8:48:42 PM10/20/11
to
On 20/10/2011 7:13 PM, William Black wrote:
> On 20/10/11 23:12, Jonathan wrote:
>
>>
>> Syria is imploding all by itself.
>
> No it isn't.
>
> It won't fall any more than Gadaffy's Libya would have fallen without
> NATO pushing it.
>
> There are far too many people with blood on their hands to allow the
> government to fall.
>
> Unless someone outside gives them some help they're not going to make
> any progress, and if someone from outside intervenes on the tyrant's
> side he'll quickly triumph, as the despotic tyrant in Bahrain triumphed
> when the Saudis came in on his side.
>
>
I think Turkey is the intervenor of choice, they have ample provocation.
> On 20/10/11 23:12, Jonathan wrote:
>
>>
>> Syria is imploding all by itself.
>
> No it isn't.
>
> It won't fall any more than Gadaffy's Libya would have fallen without
> NATO pushing it.
>
> There are far too many people with blood on their hands to allow the
> government to fall.
>
> Unless someone outside gives them some help they're not going to make
> any progress, and if someone from outside intervenes on the tyrant's
> side he'll quickly triumph, as the despotic tyrant in Bahrain triumphed
> when the Saudis came in on his side.
>
>
If the area can solve the problem itself, we should be patient and allow
it to do so.
--
Peter
Andrew Swallow
Oct 20, 2011, 8:57:31 PM10/20/11
to
On 20/10/2011 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>
Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>
DVDs and books showing how things should be done could bed useful. A
few warnings about what goes wrong - such as corruption and cronies
getting too much power.
For the rest of the world, ask dictators what hole do they want digging
out off before being killed? It may persuade a few to go into exile.
In the '50s, '60s and '70s dictators were allowed to gain power because
the West needed its forces to stop the expansion of the USSR. Now days
the West can have fun bashing dictators.
Andrew Swallow
Message has been deleted
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 20, 2011, 11:42:56 PM10/20/11
to
Il 20/10/2011 22:39, Joe Osman ha scritto:
> What Guadalajara Syndrome are you taking about?
>
> Camptodactyly syndrome, Guadalajara type 2 is characterised by
> intrauterine growth retardation, dwarfism, camptodactyly of all
> fingers, bilateral hallux valgus, short second, fourth and fifth toes,
> patella hypoplasia, short neck, low-set ears, microcephaly, and cuboid
> vertebral bodies. It has been described in only two sisters (aged 6
> and 3 years). The mode of inheritance appears to be autosomal
> recessive. *Author: Orphanet (May 2004)*.
go read Hemingway's "for who the bell tolls" then read an *actual*
> What Guadalajara Syndrome are you taking about?
>
> Camptodactyly syndrome, Guadalajara type 2 is characterised by
> intrauterine growth retardation, dwarfism, camptodactyly of all
> fingers, bilateral hallux valgus, short second, fourth and fifth toes,
> patella hypoplasia, short neck, low-set ears, microcephaly, and cuboid
> vertebral bodies. It has been described in only two sisters (aged 6
> and 3 years). The mode of inheritance appears to be autosomal
> recessive. *Author: Orphanet (May 2004)*.
account or military science study of the Battle of Guadalajara, then try
to think on the differences.
The actual battle was a draw, with a slight advantage for Italy, and led
a strong reformation of the Italian forces in Spain (aside that one of
Republican commander was one Luigi Longo...) whose became an effective
fighting force, but the real damage was in noticing the impact of
well-handled Republican propaganda, and understanding the basic weakness
of Italian internal morale, well-exploited during WWII.
Italians, when motivated and confident are excellent fighters, but if
one manage to shatter the morale, esp. in the confidence on weapons &
tactics and trust in the leadership, defeating Italy is assured.
I suspect that was not by chance that the protagonist of the movie whose
more than others, helps America to exit from the 'Nam syndrome (whose is
similiar) is the italo-american Rambo.
If one thinks more on it, Italian major defeats (Lissa, Caporetto,
Taranto, Matapan &c.) are much more amplified by the rather
long-duration shockwaves on the military and public opinion on it, and,
as seems in the Libyan war, the preferred course from the highest
commands and politics is to take the minimum risks possible.
So, I will be rather surprised if one of the two italian decks cross in
towards harm's way the meridian of Gaudo towards Syria, and really
amazed if *both* decks actually operate east of Gaudo...
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 20, 2011, 11:49:48 PM10/20/11
to
Il 20/10/2011 23:01, William Black ha scritto:
> On 20/10/11 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>
>> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
>> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
>> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
>> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda,
>
> The 6th Fleet can operate under land based air cover anywhere near Cyprus.
seems that you forget that if a carrier battle group operate against
> On 20/10/11 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>
>> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
>> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
>> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
>> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda,
>
> The 6th Fleet can operate under land based air cover anywhere near Cyprus.
syria, can't operate (or operate efficiently) against Libya, and
visa-versa, and the median position (somewhat south or south-east of
Souda bay in Crete) is only a wastage of flying hours, because of the
long duration of the air missions caused by the distance to the target area.
The need to be somewhere between the E side of Crete and Cyprus isn't
because of the air cover (because a US carrier battlegroup has more than
enough air cover in itself) but in the finer points of airstrikes,
operation tempo and wear & tear of airframes & engines and, last but
definitively not least, the pilot's fatigue...
William Black
Oct 21, 2011, 6:09:30 AM10/21/11
to
On 21/10/11 04:49, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
> Il 20/10/2011 23:01, William Black ha scritto:
>> On 20/10/11 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>
>>> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
>>> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
>>> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
>>> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda,
>>
>> The 6th Fleet can operate under land based air cover anywhere near
>> Cyprus.
>
> seems that you forget that if a carrier battle group operate against
> syria, can't operate (or operate efficiently) against Libya,
Libya is over, and has, realistically, been over for a couple of weeks
> Il 20/10/2011 23:01, William Black ha scritto:
>> On 20/10/11 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>
>>> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel, 6th
>>> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
>>> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
>>> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda,
>>
>> The 6th Fleet can operate under land based air cover anywhere near
>> Cyprus.
>
> seems that you forget that if a carrier battle group operate against
> syria, can't operate (or operate efficiently) against Libya,
now.
I'm surprised that NATO is even involved in the mopping up, the only
possible explanation is that the Libyan rebels are so weak militarily
that they need help even against the shattered remnants of Gadaffy's forces.
William Black
Oct 21, 2011, 6:11:13 AM10/21/11
to
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/world/europe/turkey-deploys-thousands-of-troops-against-pkk.html
William Black
Oct 21, 2011, 6:14:07 AM10/21/11
to
On 21/10/11 01:57, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 20/10/2011 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>
>
> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
How?
> On 20/10/2011 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>
>
> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
There's no political infrastructure.
No political parties, not even any local assemblies or a parliament.
It has been set up something like Communist China with the place run by
a combination of local party committees and the secret police.
It'll take years to organise something, and before that either some
local strongman will take over or the place will fragment as local
leaders consolidate their slice of the pie.
Peter Skelton
Oct 21, 2011, 7:20:06 AM10/21/11
to
require a policing presence for years. It will not be bloodless, let the
region have it.
--
Peter
William Black
Oct 21, 2011, 7:38:47 AM10/21/11
to
Turkey can't hold down a couple of thousand Kurds.
Egypt is busy repressing its Christian population.
Jordan is trying desperately to remain a kingdom.
Lebanon is essentially a failed state run by terrorists.
An intervention by Iraq would be treated as 'US aggression'.
Israel won't get involved because, well, let's be brutal about it,
Syria in flames suits them down to the ground...
Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
nothing...
Peter Skelton
Oct 21, 2011, 8:20:21 AM10/21/11
to
> Turkey can't hold down a couple of thousand Kurds.
>
leadership with the Kurds, followed by a description of the active
Kurdish opposition to that leadership, and the Kurdish drives allied
with Turkish interests.
<s>
>
> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
> nothing...
>
needed, the west is best out of it, unless a really pressing need comes up.
--
Peter
William Black
Oct 21, 2011, 9:14:56 AM10/21/11
to
that the bulk of the effective Turkish fighting forces will be bogged
down slaughtering Kurdish civilians for the foreseeable future.
If they start military operations in Syria than Assad and friends will
just pump money and arms into Turkish Kurdistan.
Turkey doesn't need another war right now, they're far too busy
slaughtering their own and hoping they won't have to send any more
armoured columns into Iraq..
I don't know if you've noticed, but all that sabre rattling about
Israel and ships and a possible naval war has stopped as well.
>> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
>> nothing...
>>
> It may be nothing, but it shouldn't be NATO. If ground forces are
> needed, the west is best out of it, unless a really pressing need comes up.
force that can be supported
The main problem is getting the rest of the Arab tyrants, and they are
ALL tyrants, behind any action.
Ray O'Hara
Oct 21, 2011, 11:39:36 AM10/21/11
to
"William Black" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:j7rgcq$d73$2...@dont-email.me...
> On 21/10/11 04:49, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>> Il 20/10/2011 23:01, William Black ha scritto:
>>> On 20/10/11 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>>
>>>> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel,
>>>> 6th
>>>> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
>>>> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
>>>> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda,
>>>
>>> The 6th Fleet can operate under land based air cover anywhere near
>>> Cyprus.
>>
>> seems that you forget that if a carrier battle group operate against
>> syria, can't operate (or operate efficiently) against Libya,
>
> Libya is over, and has, realistically, been over for a couple of weeks
> now.
>
over? now the real fun begins. getting rid of Khadafy was just a start.
>> Il 20/10/2011 23:01, William Black ha scritto:
>>> On 20/10/11 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>>
>>>> As pointed in past, until the permanent removal of the late colonel,
>>>> 6th
>>>> Fleet's CVBG can't deploy eastward enough to be effective in the Syrian
>>>> area (in my estimate, even taking into account air refuelling, the only
>>>> possible most eastward deployment was not much east of Suda,
>>>
>>> The 6th Fleet can operate under land based air cover anywhere near
>>> Cyprus.
>>
>> seems that you forget that if a carrier battle group operate against
>> syria, can't operate (or operate efficiently) against Libya,
>
> Libya is over, and has, realistically, been over for a couple of weeks
> now.
>
Ray O'Hara
Oct 21, 2011, 11:42:20 AM10/21/11
to
"Peter Skelton" <skelto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dsdoq.50$ZO...@newsfe05.iad...
'Islam is going to have its 30 Years War.
the smartest thing the West can do is stay out of it.
Richard
Oct 21, 2011, 12:40:04 PM10/21/11
to
On Oct 21, 10:42 am, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Peter Skelton" <skelton.pe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
concerned.
> "Peter Skelton" <skelton.pe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:dsdoq.50$ZO...@newsfe05.iad...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 21/10/2011 7:38 AM, William Black wrote:
> >> On 21/10/11 12:20, Peter Skelton wrote:
> >>> On 21/10/2011 6:11 AM, William Black wrote:
> >>>> On 21/10/11 01:48, Peter Skelton wrote:
> >>>>> On 20/10/2011 7:13 PM, William Black wrote:
> >>>>>> On 20/10/11 23:12, Jonathan wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Syria is imploding all by itself.
>
> >>>>>> No it isn't.
>
> >>>>>> It won't fall any more than Gadaffy's Libya would have fallen without
> >>>>>> NATO pushing it.
>
> >>>>>> There are far too many people with blood on their hands to allow the
> >>>>>> government to fall.
>
> >>>>>> Unless someone outside gives them some help they're not going to make
> >>>>>> any progress, and if someone from outside intervenes on the tyrant's
> >>>>>> side he'll quickly triumph, as the despotic tyrant in Bahrain
> >>>>>> triumphed
> >>>>>> when the Saudis came in on his side.
>
> >>>>> I think Turkey is the intervenor of choice, they have ample
> >>>>> provocation.
> >>>>> If the area can solve the problem itself, we should be patient and
> >>>>> allow
> >>>>> it to do so.
>
> >>>> Turkey is currently up to the armpits in blood in Kurdistan.
>
> >>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/world/europe/turkey-deploys-thousan...
> news:dsdoq.50$ZO...@newsfe05.iad...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 21/10/2011 7:38 AM, William Black wrote:
> >> On 21/10/11 12:20, Peter Skelton wrote:
> >>> On 21/10/2011 6:11 AM, William Black wrote:
> >>>> On 21/10/11 01:48, Peter Skelton wrote:
> >>>>> On 20/10/2011 7:13 PM, William Black wrote:
> >>>>>> On 20/10/11 23:12, Jonathan wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Syria is imploding all by itself.
>
> >>>>>> No it isn't.
>
> >>>>>> It won't fall any more than Gadaffy's Libya would have fallen without
> >>>>>> NATO pushing it.
>
> >>>>>> There are far too many people with blood on their hands to allow the
> >>>>>> government to fall.
>
> >>>>>> Unless someone outside gives them some help they're not going to make
> >>>>>> any progress, and if someone from outside intervenes on the tyrant's
> >>>>>> side he'll quickly triumph, as the despotic tyrant in Bahrain
> >>>>>> triumphed
> >>>>>> when the Saudis came in on his side.
>
> >>>>> I think Turkey is the intervenor of choice, they have ample
> >>>>> provocation.
> >>>>> If the area can solve the problem itself, we should be patient and
> >>>>> allow
> >>>>> it to do so.
>
> >>>> Turkey is currently up to the armpits in blood in Kurdistan.
>
>
> >>> A successful intervention will almost certainly need ground troops and
> >>> require a policing presence for years. It will not be bloodless, let the
> >>> region have it.
>
> >> Who?
>
> > Turkey obviously, as I said at the beginning.
>
> >> Turkey can't hold down a couple of thousand Kurds.
>
> > Please grant us a paragraph or two about the unpopularity if the Kurdish
> > leadership with the Kurds, followed by a description of the active Kurdish
> > opposition to that leadership, and the Kurdish drives allied with Turkish
> > interests.
>
> > <s>
>
> >> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
> >> nothing...
>
> > It may be nothing, but it shouldn't be NATO. If ground forces are needed,
> > the west is best out of it, unless a really pressing need comes up.
>
> > --
> > Peter'
>
> 'Islam is going to have its 30 Years War.
> the smartest thing the West can do is stay out of it.
Yeah, 'cept we've never been noted for our smarts...esp where oil is
> >>> A successful intervention will almost certainly need ground troops and
> >>> require a policing presence for years. It will not be bloodless, let the
> >>> region have it.
>
> >> Who?
>
> > Turkey obviously, as I said at the beginning.
>
> >> Turkey can't hold down a couple of thousand Kurds.
>
> > Please grant us a paragraph or two about the unpopularity if the Kurdish
> > leadership with the Kurds, followed by a description of the active Kurdish
> > opposition to that leadership, and the Kurdish drives allied with Turkish
> > interests.
>
> > <s>
>
> >> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
> >> nothing...
>
> > It may be nothing, but it shouldn't be NATO. If ground forces are needed,
> > the west is best out of it, unless a really pressing need comes up.
>
> > --
> > Peter'
>
> 'Islam is going to have its 30 Years War.
> the smartest thing the West can do is stay out of it.
concerned.
William Black
Oct 21, 2011, 1:14:20 PM10/21/11
to
But that's anyone's game.
Message has been deleted
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 21, 2011, 3:12:33 PM10/21/11
to
Il 21/10/2011 13:38, William Black ha scritto:
>
> Who?
>
> Turkey can't hold down a couple of thousand Kurds.
Also us have difficulties in dealing with iraqui guerrilla/terrorism,
>
> Who?
>
> Turkey can't hold down a couple of thousand Kurds.
but Turkey can't do a serious commitment south with a near-collapsing
country on the opposite border whose happens to be the natural enemy of
Turkey (and a NATO country starting war against another NATO country is
equivalent to the dissolution of said alliance, a thing whose even USA
can't allow in these days)
> Egypt is busy repressing its Christian population.
divided countries separe Egypt from the pair of countries in which
Coptic christianity is the majority religion and are rather ferocious
against Islamics. I highly suspect that the US involvment against the
LRA is also to keep a weary eye on the Judas's Lion....
> Jordan is trying desperately to remain a kingdom.
house...
> Lebanon is essentially a failed state run by terrorists.
> An intervention by Iraq would be treated as 'US aggression'.
need to be stiffened from USA, and the same issue I pointed on Turkey
apply more apropos with Iraq...
> Israel won't get involved because, well, let's be brutal about it, Syria
> in flames suits them down to the ground...
from Morocco to Pakistan....
> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
> nothing...
Vest regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 21, 2011, 3:15:23 PM10/21/11
to
Il 21/10/2011 17:42, Ray O'Hara ha scritto:
> 'Islam is going to have its 30 Years War.
> the smartest thing the West can do is stay out of it.
Until the full conversion to nuclear and/or alternative/green energy is
> 'Islam is going to have its 30 Years War.
> the smartest thing the West can do is stay out of it.
fully done, isn't an option for the West....
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 21, 2011, 3:17:31 PM10/21/11
to
Il 21/10/2011 20:12, Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
> It's not even that. We just have this urge to 'pick the winners'.
> Unfortunately, the West's ability to pick 'winners' with any real
> staying power is somewhat suspect. I mean, we got the current lot of
> nasties who are being overthrown because THEY overthrew our last crop
> of 'winners'....
well, best to keep out Italy outside the pick-winnery routine, at least
not until there's a better gov't... Last time we take the wrong winner,
was a rather unpleasant thing for everyone.
> It's not even that. We just have this urge to 'pick the winners'.
> Unfortunately, the West's ability to pick 'winners' with any real
> staying power is somewhat suspect. I mean, we got the current lot of
> nasties who are being overthrown because THEY overthrew our last crop
> of 'winners'....
well, best to keep out Italy outside the pick-winnery routine, at least
not until there's a better gov't... Last time we take the wrong winner,
was a rather unpleasant thing for everyone.
Thomas Womack
Oct 21, 2011, 3:25:12 PM10/21/11
to
In article <Bujoq.88104$GZ3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it>,
with the entire NATO general staff holding its leash, Greece is not
going to launch an unprompted war of aggression against another NATO
state regardless of how distracted Turkey is.
Tom
dott.Piergiorgio <chied...@ask.me> wrote:
>Il 21/10/2011 13:38, William Black ha scritto:
>
>>
>> Who?
>>
>> Turkey can't hold down a couple of thousand Kurds.
>
>Also us have difficulties in dealing with iraqui guerrilla/terrorism,
>but Turkey can't do a serious commitment south with a near-collapsing
>country on the opposite border whose happens to be the natural enemy of
>Turkey
'Natural enemy', maybe, but also coalition partner and deeply screwed;
>Il 21/10/2011 13:38, William Black ha scritto:
>
>>
>> Who?
>>
>> Turkey can't hold down a couple of thousand Kurds.
>
>Also us have difficulties in dealing with iraqui guerrilla/terrorism,
>but Turkey can't do a serious commitment south with a near-collapsing
>country on the opposite border whose happens to be the natural enemy of
>Turkey
with the entire NATO general staff holding its leash, Greece is not
going to launch an unprompted war of aggression against another NATO
state regardless of how distracted Turkey is.
Tom
Ray O'Hara
Oct 21, 2011, 4:15:31 PM10/21/11
to
news:j7s99c$phc$2...@dont-email.me...
the first phase of shooting is over.
everyone was united to get Gaddafy.
now that he's gone a lot of that unity will go too.
and everybody has their AK-47.
poor Kalishnikov, he gets no royalties from them
there are even 16 factories in the U.S. that makes them.
what I want to know is where do they get all that ammo they are always
firing in the air.
everyone was united to get Gaddafy.
now that he's gone a lot of that unity will go too.
and everybody has their AK-47.
poor Kalishnikov, he gets no royalties from them
there are even 16 factories in the U.S. that makes them.
what I want to know is where do they get all that ammo they are always
firing in the air.
Ray O'Hara
Oct 21, 2011, 4:17:08 PM10/21/11
to
news:gxjoq.88106$GZ3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
they'll all be willing to sell oil. it's all they have to sell and they
need the money, so I don't think oil is much an issue.
need the money, so I don't think oil is much an issue.
Dennis
Oct 21, 2011, 4:44:37 PM10/21/11
to
dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>> Egypt is busy repressing its Christian population.
>
> whose is really dangerous in perspective; only a pair of weak and just
> divided countries separe Egypt from the pair of countries in which
> Coptic christianity is the majority religion and are rather ferocious
> against Islamics. I highly suspect that the US involvment against the
> LRA is also to keep a weary eye on the Judas's Lion....
So *that's* why we're NOT doing the Lord's work! I hadn't thought of
>> Egypt is busy repressing its Christian population.
>
> whose is really dangerous in perspective; only a pair of weak and just
> divided countries separe Egypt from the pair of countries in which
> Coptic christianity is the majority religion and are rather ferocious
> against Islamics. I highly suspect that the US involvment against the
> LRA is also to keep a weary eye on the Judas's Lion....
that. Makes sense.
>> Jordan is trying desperately to remain a kingdom.
>
> I have full trust on the unique survival capability of the Hashemite
> house...
>> Lebanon is essentially a failed state run by terrorists.
>
> agree
>> An intervention by Iraq would be treated as 'US aggression'.
>
> ... also because Iraq is not much capable of offensive ops, and will
> need to be stiffened from USA, and the same issue I pointed on Turkey
> apply more apropos with Iraq...
>
>> Israel won't get involved because, well, let's be brutal about it,
>> Syria in flames suits them down to the ground...
>
> to be much more brutal, an Israeli involvment means full blown warfare
> from Morocco to Pakistan....
>
>> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
>> nothing...
>
> as is my main point, so I can roughly concur.
brutal Syrian dictatorship, why would US/NATO get involved? There isn't
oil there.
How would it affect the Israel/Palestinian mess? The saying is,
"Without Egypt, there can't be war; without Syria, there can't be
peace." I can see a reason there - to put in a regime more friendly to
Western interests - but would it be? It would presumably be Sunni; Iran
would lose one of its few allies, which would suit us fine. But what
would its attitude be towards the Israel/Palestine mess?
Dennis
Message has been deleted
Andrew Swallow
Oct 21, 2011, 6:26:19 PM10/21/11
to
We could change the top family in Syria. Tell the new family that they
need to make some reforms to stay in power.
Andrew Swallow
William Black
Oct 21, 2011, 6:29:15 PM10/21/11
to
On 21/10/11 21:15, Ray O'Hara wrote:
>
>
> what I want to know is where do they get all that ammo they are always
> firing in the air.
>
>
The bodies of the losers...
>
>
> what I want to know is where do they get all that ammo they are always
> firing in the air.
>
>
William Black
Oct 21, 2011, 6:33:41 PM10/21/11
to
On 21/10/11 21:44, Dennis wrote:
But seriously, because representative democracies do not attack each other.
US foreign policy is therefore to encourage their formation.
> How would it affect the Israel/Palestinian mess?
Not much.
It makes Israel more secure, but the current situation makes them even
more secure...
> dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
>>> nothing...
>>
>> as is my main point, so I can roughly concur.
>
> My question: as much as I sympathize with the people fighting the truly
> brutal Syrian dictatorship, why would US/NATO get involved? There isn't
> oil there.
Because we're the good guys...
>>> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
>>> nothing...
>>
>> as is my main point, so I can roughly concur.
>
> My question: as much as I sympathize with the people fighting the truly
> brutal Syrian dictatorship, why would US/NATO get involved? There isn't
> oil there.
But seriously, because representative democracies do not attack each other.
US foreign policy is therefore to encourage their formation.
> How would it affect the Israel/Palestinian mess?
It makes Israel more secure, but the current situation makes them even
more secure...
Andrew Swallow
Oct 21, 2011, 6:34:36 PM10/21/11
to
Gadaffi and Britain's Charles I. The West helps the revolution by
finding all your the money hidden overseas. Your cousin Ali, the new
president-for-life, may allow you to live in exile and keep the money in
your numbered bank account.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
Oct 21, 2011, 6:43:05 PM10/21/11
to
On 21/10/2011 16:42, Ray O'Hara wrote:
{snip}
>
>
> 'Islam is going to have its 30 Years War.
> the smartest thing the West can do is stay out of it.
>
>
Possibly but Ayatollah Khomeini and Osama bin Laden aimed their forces
at the West. However they are now both dead.
Due to the nature of their armed forces for the West to stay out of it
any major battles would have to be in the desert, rather than at sea.
Any deserts or mountain ranges with different Islamic sects at the ends?
Andrew Swallow
{snip}
>
>
> 'Islam is going to have its 30 Years War.
> the smartest thing the West can do is stay out of it.
>
>
at the West. However they are now both dead.
Due to the nature of their armed forces for the West to stay out of it
any major battles would have to be in the desert, rather than at sea.
Any deserts or mountain ranges with different Islamic sects at the ends?
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
Oct 21, 2011, 7:36:07 PM10/21/11
to
On 21/10/2011 11:14, William Black wrote:
> On 21/10/11 01:57, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 20/10/2011 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>>
>>
>> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
>
> How?
>
> There's no political infrastructure.
>
> No political parties, not even any local assemblies or a parliament.
>
> It has been set up something like Communist China with the place run by
> a combination of local party committees and the secret police.
>
> It'll take years to organise something, and before that either some
> local strongman will take over or the place will fragment as local
> leaders consolidate their slice of the pie.
>
There must be the equivalent of mayors. Set up chambers to select new
> On 21/10/11 01:57, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 20/10/2011 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>>
>>
>> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
>
> How?
>
> There's no political infrastructure.
>
> No political parties, not even any local assemblies or a parliament.
>
> It has been set up something like Communist China with the place run by
> a combination of local party committees and the secret police.
>
> It'll take years to organise something, and before that either some
> local strongman will take over or the place will fragment as local
> leaders consolidate their slice of the pie.
>
'mayors' and confirm/reject new rules.
The rebels will have some sort of command and control system that can be
used as a national control system. NATO will have to leave the civilian
version. I suspect that the oil companies are also running some sort of
national control system for people and spare parts.
Andrew Swallow
William Black
Oct 21, 2011, 9:42:55 PM10/21/11
to
On 22/10/11 00:36, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 21/10/2011 11:14, William Black wrote:
>> On 21/10/11 01:57, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>> On 20/10/2011 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>>>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
>>
>> How?
>>
>> There's no political infrastructure.
>>
>> No political parties, not even any local assemblies or a parliament.
>>
>> It has been set up something like Communist China with the place run by
>> a combination of local party committees and the secret police.
>>
>> It'll take years to organise something, and before that either some
>> local strongman will take over or the place will fragment as local
>> leaders consolidate their slice of the pie.
>>
> There must be the equivalent of mayors. Set up chambers to select new
> 'mayors' and confirm/reject new rules.
They're all tainted.
> On 21/10/2011 11:14, William Black wrote:
>> On 21/10/11 01:57, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>> On 20/10/2011 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>>>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
>>
>> How?
>>
>> There's no political infrastructure.
>>
>> No political parties, not even any local assemblies or a parliament.
>>
>> It has been set up something like Communist China with the place run by
>> a combination of local party committees and the secret police.
>>
>> It'll take years to organise something, and before that either some
>> local strongman will take over or the place will fragment as local
>> leaders consolidate their slice of the pie.
>>
> There must be the equivalent of mayors. Set up chambers to select new
> 'mayors' and confirm/reject new rules.
The whole country was run as a 'people's republic' in much the same way
as China is today.
There are no untainted officials.
Indeed Gadaffy seems to have spent considerable time in making sure all
his officials were complicit in the way the country was run by always
saying 'I am not a dictator, all changes are dictated by the people'
> The rebels will have some sort of command and control system that can be
> used as a national control system.
They've got a few NATO air controllers and not much else.
They couldn't take a town without massive NATO air support killing
anything with wheels.
Without NATO Gadaffy would have got away.
NATO will have to leave the civilian
> version. I suspect that the oil companies are also running some sort of
> national control system for people and spare parts.
about right.
Of course to keep the people happy they'll need to resort to the usual
rubbish about the rest of the world being a vast Jewish conspiracy.
But it works for the Saudis...
Dennis
Oct 21, 2011, 11:25:38 PM10/21/11
to
William Black wrote:
> On 21/10/11 21:44, Dennis wrote:
>> dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>
>>>> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
>>>> nothing...
>>>
>>> as is my main point, so I can roughly concur.
>>
>> My question: as much as I sympathize with the people fighting the
>> truly brutal Syrian dictatorship, why would US/NATO get involved?
>> There isn't oil there.
>
> Because we're the good guys...
>
> But seriously, because representative democracies do not attack each
> other.
>
> US foreign policy is therefore to encourage their formation.
Sounds OK, though we're always leery of shedding our own blood toward
> On 21/10/11 21:44, Dennis wrote:
>> dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>
>>>> Nope, it's NATO with Arab League permission or nothing, my guess is
>>>> nothing...
>>>
>>> as is my main point, so I can roughly concur.
>>
>> My question: as much as I sympathize with the people fighting the
>> truly brutal Syrian dictatorship, why would US/NATO get involved?
>> There isn't oil there.
>
> Because we're the good guys...
>
> But seriously, because representative democracies do not attack each
> other.
>
> US foreign policy is therefore to encourage their formation.
that end. NATO did take some risks to get rid of Gaddafi.
>> How would it affect the Israel/Palestinian mess?
>
> Not much.
>
> It makes Israel more secure, but the current situation makes them even
> more secure...
It would also remove an ally for Iran, a plus for the US/West.
Dennis
Jonathan
Oct 22, 2011, 8:54:30 AM10/22/11
to
"Andrew Swallow" <am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:QNCdnaSTAKUXXj3T...@giganews.com...
> On 20/10/2011 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>
>
> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
> DVDs and books showing how things should be done could bed useful. A few
>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>
>
> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
> warnings about what goes wrong - such as corruption and cronies getting
> too much power.
>
> For the rest of the world, ask dictators what hole do they want digging
> out off before being killed? It may persuade a few to go into exile.
All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>
> In the '50s, '60s and '70s dictators were allowed to gain power because
> the West needed its forces to stop the expansion of the USSR. Now days
> the West can have fun bashing dictators.
I've become convinced the 'Domino Effect' really does exist, but only for
things people want, like prosperity and freedom.
>
> Andrew Swallow
>
Jonathan
Oct 22, 2011, 9:04:01 AM10/22/11
to
news:j7rglf$d73$4...@dont-email.me...
transition to democracy. Their plan is very ambitious, just eight months
to enact a constitution and have the first election. And one report said
even will all that's going on, Tripoli is far safer and more functional
than Baghdad, and the interim govt will have plenty of cash to
spread around.
> On 21/10/11 01:57, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 20/10/2011 19:03, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>>
>>
>> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
>
>>> solved definitively the Libyan issue, let's look on the next moves,
>>> starting from the obvious: Damascus.
>>>
>>
>> Stabilise Libya. I prefer problems to stay fixed.
>
> How?
>
> There's no political infrastructure.
>
> No political parties, not even any local assemblies or a parliament.
>
> It has been set up something like Communist China with the place run by a
> combination of local party committees and the secret police.
>
> It'll take years to organise something, and before that either some local
> strongman will take over or the place will fragment as local leaders
> consolidate their slice of the pie.
From what I read in the paper it looks like Libya will make a quick
>
> There's no political infrastructure.
>
> No political parties, not even any local assemblies or a parliament.
>
> It has been set up something like Communist China with the place run by a
> combination of local party committees and the secret police.
>
> It'll take years to organise something, and before that either some local
> strongman will take over or the place will fragment as local leaders
> consolidate their slice of the pie.
transition to democracy. Their plan is very ambitious, just eight months
to enact a constitution and have the first election. And one report said
even will all that's going on, Tripoli is far safer and more functional
than Baghdad, and the interim govt will have plenty of cash to
spread around.
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 22, 2011, 7:31:25 PM10/22/11
to
Il 21/10/2011 22:15, Ray O'Hara ha scritto:
> the first phase of shooting is over.
> everyone was united to get Gaddafy.
> now that he's gone a lot of that unity will go too.
> and everybody has their AK-47.
> poor Kalishnikov, he gets no royalties from them
> there are even 16 factories in the U.S. that makes them.
>
>
> what I want to know is where do they get all that ammo they are always
> firing in the air.
I can now anticipate that at least a part came from shipping seized by a
> the first phase of shooting is over.
> everyone was united to get Gaddafy.
> now that he's gone a lot of that unity will go too.
> and everybody has their AK-47.
> poor Kalishnikov, he gets no royalties from them
> there are even 16 factories in the U.S. that makes them.
>
>
> what I want to know is where do they get all that ammo they are always
> firing in the air.
certain major Med country during the 1999 Kosovo unpleasantness, and
stored in a Naval facility of said major Med country and was noticed
that was moved out in a rather discrete manner last June....
I pointed that the Naval side of the now-ended Libyan war was a rerun of
the 1940-3 anglo-Italian unpleasantness, but I can now point that there
was not only the blockade side....
Bestr regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 22, 2011, 7:38:04 PM10/22/11
to
Il 21/10/2011 21:25, Thomas Womack ha scritto:
>> Also us have difficulties in dealing with iraqui guerrilla/terrorism,
>> but Turkey can't do a serious commitment south with a near-collapsing
>> country on the opposite border whose happens to be the natural enemy of
>> Turkey
>
> 'Natural enemy', maybe, but also coalition partner and deeply screwed;
> with the entire NATO general staff holding its leash, Greece is not
> going to launch an unprompted war of aggression against another NATO
> state regardless of how distracted Turkey is.
well, one can seriously proof who has fired the first shot ? with an
>> Also us have difficulties in dealing with iraqui guerrilla/terrorism,
>> but Turkey can't do a serious commitment south with a near-collapsing
>> country on the opposite border whose happens to be the natural enemy of
>> Turkey
>
> 'Natural enemy', maybe, but also coalition partner and deeply screwed;
> with the entire NATO general staff holding its leash, Greece is not
> going to launch an unprompted war of aggression against another NATO
> state regardless of how distracted Turkey is.
good border incident as casus belli,with the usual cross-accusations,
and the reluctance of many important NATO countries in committing in
another mess, I guess that the NATO emergency meeting in brussels can be
an harrowsome one, if not leading directly to the collapse of the
alliance...
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
William Black
Oct 22, 2011, 7:51:04 PM10/22/11
to
electoral register or a system in place for counting the votes.
It takes the UK three months to publish their electoral register after
the information is in, and that's an editing of the old data rather
than a complete new edition.
If they do it all in eight months, probably using an 'off the shelf'
constitution with the words 'insert name of country here' in lots of
places, it'll take them an absolute minimum of two years to set
something up that'll be stable.
My guess is that if they go for election within eighteen months it'll
all fall to bits in a year or so with loads of middle-aged people
muttering things like 'Old Muhamar, he wasn't as bad as this lot' and
we'll be left with the traditional Arab tyranny, hopefully without the
currently fashionable religious maniacs running things.
William Black
Oct 22, 2011, 7:52:05 PM10/22/11
to
On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
You really think they'll find it?
> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 22, 2011, 8:00:20 PM10/22/11
to
Il 22/10/2011 15:04, Jonathan ha scritto:
>
>
> From what I read in the paper it looks like Libya will make a quick
> transition to democracy. Their plan is very ambitious, just eight months
> to enact a constitution and have the first election. And one report said
> even will all that's going on, Tripoli is far safer and more functional
> than Baghdad, and the interim govt will have plenty of cash to
> spread around.
the most interesting thing is that Mr. Jalal has sayed "now we have won
>
>
> From what I read in the paper it looks like Libya will make a quick
> transition to democracy. Their plan is very ambitious, just eight months
> to enact a constitution and have the first election. And one report said
> even will all that's going on, Tripoli is far safer and more functional
> than Baghdad, and the interim govt will have plenty of cash to
> spread around.
the small Jihad, the liberation of [Libya] now we must won the big
Jihad, the rebuilding of [Libyan] society and progress", putting
squarely the sane interpretation of the word "jihad", that is, the
interior and exterior changing of one's self, cfr. Paul's "armour of
God", whose is always unnoticed that are, indeed armour, and the lone
sword ends too much overemphasised....
the ultimate "Western" objective must be this, helping true Islam into
their sorely-needed renaissance era....
Clearly he was talking also to the muslim brethen and a certain
brotherhood....
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 22, 2011, 8:08:27 PM10/22/11
to
Il 23/10/2011 01:51, William Black ha scritto:
> If they do it all in eight months, probably using an 'off the shelf'
> constitution with the words 'insert name of country here' in lots of
> places, it'll take them an absolute minimum of two years to set
> something up that'll be stable.
well, do you known about the first, SCAP-made, draft of the current
> If they do it all in eight months, probably using an 'off the shelf'
> constitution with the words 'insert name of country here' in lots of
> places, it'll take them an absolute minimum of two years to set
> something up that'll be stable.
Japanese constitution ? a bunch of very idealist US citizen-soldiers and
in a week of work was drafted a very modern for their times model
Constitution...
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 22, 2011, 8:09:54 PM10/22/11
to
Il 23/10/2011 01:52, William Black ha scritto:
> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>
>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>
> You really think they'll find it?
>
> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
on this, someone has noticed that there's a surge of 414s exploiting the
> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>
>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>
> You really think they'll find it?
>
> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
name of the late colonel's family ?
Andrew Swallow
Oct 23, 2011, 3:23:44 AM10/23/11
to
from the enemy country. Britain had to organise armed convoys.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
Oct 23, 2011, 3:36:58 AM10/23/11
to
On 23/10/2011 00:52, William Black wrote:
> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>
>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>
> You really think they'll find it?
>
> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
>
>
>
When they access the money we find out which bank it was in and the
> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>
>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>
> You really think they'll find it?
>
> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
>
>
>
number of the account.
Andrew Swallow
Message has been deleted
Andrew Swallow
Oct 23, 2011, 6:48:28 AM10/23/11
to
On 23/10/2011 09:43, Fred J. McCall wrote:
> Neat trick. How do you catch them accessing the money if you don't
> know which bank and account to watch?
>
You watch all of them. We are talking large sums of money.
Andrew Swallow
> know which bank and account to watch?
>
You watch all of them. We are talking large sums of money.
Andrew Swallow
William Black
Oct 23, 2011, 8:27:59 AM10/23/11
to
or whatever it's called?
Especially if the family has given Lieutenant General Salou Djibo, the
current tyrant, half the interest...
The Gadaffy family has bought the place.
Message has been deleted
William Black
Oct 23, 2011, 9:02:45 AM10/23/11
to
> bug and monitor every phone in every city they or anyone who might
> work for them might pass through. You better find the money. You're
> going to need it to pay for the effort of finding the money!
I thought you claimed that this could be done by the speech recognition
software any modern mobile phone...
Jonathan
Oct 23, 2011, 9:09:40 AM10/23/11
to
news:j7vkt9$i9i$1...@dont-email.me...
At least it appears to be a better situation to start out with than
in Iraq. Hopefully it'll go easier and faster with Libya this time.
Maybe the trend becomes each revolution learns from the last
and lets the momemtum build?
in Iraq. Hopefully it'll go easier and faster with Libya this time.
Maybe the trend becomes each revolution learns from the last
and lets the momemtum build?
Jonathan
Oct 23, 2011, 9:13:16 AM10/23/11
to
news:oOIoq.88491$GZ3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
Could be nothing more than political pandering though.
The best way to get rid of terrorists is to turn them into
politicans~
The best way to get rid of terrorists is to turn them into
politicans~
William Black
Oct 23, 2011, 9:20:12 AM10/23/11
to
parliamentary democracy if not the actuality, ten months to get to some
sort of election and they're just starting to talk about constitutional
reform.
Egypt, who got rid of their dictator some eight months ago, are still
floundering about with a show trial that has bogged down and the army
there has started slaughtering the Christian community.
Libya, with no electoral system, no constituent assembly and no
political parties hasn't got a hope of getting things off the ground for
a couple of years, and by then the usual Arab cultural problems may
well mean we have yet another Arab tyranny.
Andrew Swallow
Oct 23, 2011, 9:28:01 AM10/23/11
to
upset the Niger locals. Putting money into an African bank does not
sound like a safe thing to do.
Andrew Swallow
Peter Skelton
Oct 23, 2011, 9:36:06 AM10/23/11
to
> Neat trick. How do you catch them accessing the money if you don't
> know which bank and account to watch?
>
Perhaps one remembers the old maxim: if a cord has one end, then it has
> know which bank and account to watch?
>
another end. Watch the people.
--
Peter
Peter Skelton
Oct 23, 2011, 9:45:14 AM10/23/11
to
will be in a safe place, pulled through a series of accounts. At a
guess, the resolution will be that the family hangs on to enough to keep
themselves very comfortably but loses the bulk of it (the Amin solution)
--
Peter
mike
Oct 23, 2011, 10:19:09 AM10/23/11
to
On Oct 23, 8:20 am, William Black <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Libya, with no electoral system, no constituent assembly and no
> political parties hasn't got a hope of getting things off the ground for
> a couple of years, and by then the usual Arab cultural problems may
> well mean we have yet another Arab tyranny.
Other than Berber =/ Arab
>
> Libya, with no electoral system, no constituent assembly and no
> political parties hasn't got a hope of getting things off the ground for
> a couple of years, and by then the usual Arab cultural problems may
> well mean we have yet another Arab tyranny.
Unlike Egypt, the whole system got tossed out, previous system
totally
discredited.
They had pan-african Tyrant, so I'm not seeing a reply of that.
And after the Late Colonel, I really don't think another Junta is in
the cards for them
**
mike
**
William Black
Oct 23, 2011, 10:22:35 AM10/23/11
to
violent and corrupt aristocracy for almost a thousand years.
Very few sneering toffs on horseback have ever been pulled to the ground
and kicked to death for behaving in their usual nasty manner, despite
richly deserving it.
Wealth buys tolerance.
Putting money into an African bank does not
> sound like a safe thing to do.
the like) around the world.
The Gadaffy family will insist on holding enough of the bonds and any
electronic 'keys' to make it not worthwhile to rip off the rest.
If they have stolen money in the 'billions of dollars' range they're
essentially untouchable unless the USA decides to go to war with their
protectors.
As Niger is landlocked and almost all of it is at least 400 miles from
the sea and the intervening countries are highly unlikely to give
overflying permission the chances of any successful strike to
assassinate Gadaffy family members are best described as 'slight'.
William Black
Oct 23, 2011, 10:27:44 AM10/23/11
to
powerful enough to deny the government access to the now deceased
tyrant's body.
If the current group claiming leadership tries to throw their weight
about the whole place could just disintegrate.
As Misrata is a major port and industrial centre it could probably go it
alone.
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 23, 2011, 2:05:40 PM10/23/11
to
Il 23/10/2011 15:13, Jonathan ha scritto:
>> Clearly he was talking also to the muslim brethen and a certain
>> brotherhood....
>
>
> Could be nothing more than political pandering though.
> The best way to get rid of terrorists is to turn them into
> politicans~
whose is also my point. a former Italian terrorist alone has crippled
>> Clearly he was talking also to the muslim brethen and a certain
>> brotherhood....
>
>
> Could be nothing more than political pandering though.
> The best way to get rid of terrorists is to turn them into
> politicans~
and overflowed the diplomacy between two major regional powers (Italy
and Brazil) simply with a cunning exploit of the different perception of
the word "state terrorism" between the two countries.
also, last time I checked, Uruguay is led by a former terrorist (whose
terror group greatly influenced the Italian indigenous terrorism...)
Muslim Brotherhood ought to be encouraged into a sane perception of
Islam, with wise support they can be a good, if not excellent, driving
force of the sorely needed Islam renaissance and modernisation.
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 23, 2011, 2:07:22 PM10/23/11
to
Il 23/10/2011 15:02, William Black ha scritto:
>> So you watch all of them AND everyone who might work for them 24/7 AND
>> bug and monitor every phone in every city they or anyone who might
>> work for them might pass through. You better find the money. You're
>> going to need it to pay for the effort of finding the money!
>
> I thought you claimed that this could be done by the speech recognition
> software any modern mobile phone...
you two, IMMEDIATELY leave your flamewar outside thread I started !!!!
>> So you watch all of them AND everyone who might work for them 24/7 AND
>> bug and monitor every phone in every city they or anyone who might
>> work for them might pass through. You better find the money. You're
>> going to need it to pay for the effort of finding the money!
>
> I thought you claimed that this could be done by the speech recognition
> software any modern mobile phone...
Dott. Piergiorgio.
William Black
Oct 23, 2011, 2:30:00 PM10/23/11
to
Tankfixer
Oct 23, 2011, 7:12:02 PM10/23/11
to
In article <j7vkv5$i9i$2...@dont-email.me>, - William Black
black...@gmail.com spouted !
accounts world wide.
>
> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
So you are on the run from, well everyone.
Would you try to tap into money that may very well be bugged ?
black...@gmail.com spouted !
>
> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>
> > All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
> > Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
> > a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>
> You really think they'll find it?
From what I understand at least half is already frozen in various
> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>
> > All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
> > Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
> > a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>
> You really think they'll find it?
accounts world wide.
>
> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
Would you try to tap into money that may very well be bugged ?
Jeffrey Hamilton
Oct 23, 2011, 7:33:46 PM10/23/11
to
William Black wrote:
> On 23/10/11 19:07, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>> Il 23/10/2011 15:02, William Black ha scritto:
>>
>>>> So you watch all of them AND everyone who might work for them 24/7
>>>> AND bug and monitor every phone in every city they or anyone who
>>>> might work for them might pass through. You better find the money.
>>>> You're going to need it to pay for the effort of finding the money!
>>>
>>> I thought you claimed that this could be done by the speech
>>> recognition software any modern mobile phone...
>>
>> you two, IMMEDIATELY leave your flamewar outside thread I started
>> !!!!
>
> I'm afraid I reserve the right to piss on Fred at every opportunity.
...and a respectable position, that is too.dott :)
> On 23/10/11 19:07, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>> Il 23/10/2011 15:02, William Black ha scritto:
>>
>>>> So you watch all of them AND everyone who might work for them 24/7
>>>> AND bug and monitor every phone in every city they or anyone who
>>>> might work for them might pass through. You better find the money.
>>>> You're going to need it to pay for the effort of finding the money!
>>>
>>> I thought you claimed that this could be done by the speech
>>> recognition software any modern mobile phone...
>>
>> you two, IMMEDIATELY leave your flamewar outside thread I started
>> !!!!
>
> I'm afraid I reserve the right to piss on Fred at every opportunity.
cheers.....Jeff
William Black
Oct 23, 2011, 8:09:54 PM10/23/11
to
(reports mentioned a convoy of Toyota Land Cruisers) we must assume a
reasonably large amount of gold and 'folding money' travelled with them
along with bonds and gilts drawn on several governments.
Niger is poor, so they bought the government...
george152
Oct 23, 2011, 9:10:11 PM10/23/11
to
Dennis
Oct 24, 2011, 12:55:02 AM10/24/11
to
dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>> From what I read in the paper it looks like Libya will make a quick
>> transition to democracy. Their plan is very ambitious, just eight
>> months to enact a constitution and have the first election. And one
>> report said even will all that's going on, Tripoli is far safer and
>> more functional than Baghdad, and the interim govt will have plenty
>> of cash to spread around.
>
>> From what I read in the paper it looks like Libya will make a quick
>> transition to democracy. Their plan is very ambitious, just eight
>> months to enact a constitution and have the first election. And one
>> report said even will all that's going on, Tripoli is far safer and
>> more functional than Baghdad, and the interim govt will have plenty
>> of cash to spread around.
>
> the most interesting thing is that Mr. Jalal has sayed "now we have
> won the small Jihad, the liberation of [Libya] now we must won the big
> Jihad, the rebuilding of [Libyan] society and progress", putting
> squarely the sane interpretation of the word "jihad", that is, the
> interior and exterior changing of one's self, cfr. Paul's "armour of
> God", whose is always unnoticed that are, indeed armour, and the lone
> sword ends too much overemphasised....
After a battle, Muhammad told his followers, "You have returned from the
> won the small Jihad, the liberation of [Libya] now we must won the big
> Jihad, the rebuilding of [Libyan] society and progress", putting
> squarely the sane interpretation of the word "jihad", that is, the
> interior and exterior changing of one's self, cfr. Paul's "armour of
> God", whose is always unnoticed that are, indeed armour, and the lone
> sword ends too much overemphasised....
lesser struggle to the greater one." ie. the inner one. Clearly Mr.
Jalal was referring to this Hadith. I hadn't thought of that analogue
to Paul's teaching!
> the ultimate "Western" objective must be this, helping true Islam into
> their sorely-needed renaissance era....
Circle of the Lands and the Pax Romana of the Roman Empire is also most
instructive!
> Clearly he was talking also to the muslim brethen and a certain
> brotherhood....
Dennis
Dennis
Oct 24, 2011, 12:59:55 AM10/24/11
to
dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
> Il 23/10/2011 01:51, William Black ha scritto:
>
>> If they do it all in eight months, probably using an 'off the shelf'
>> constitution with the words 'insert name of country here' in lots of
>> places, it'll take them an absolute minimum of two years to set
>> something up that'll be stable.
>
> well, do you known about the first, SCAP-made, draft of the current
> Japanese constitution ? a bunch of very idealist US citizen-soldiers and
> in a week of work was drafted a very modern for their times model
> Constitution...
Well, yes, but the Nipponese didn't have much say, since the US citizen-
soldiers were occupying their countries.
The Libyans would do better IMHO to follow the example of the French Third
Republic and the post-WWII German Federal Republic, and avoid having a
formal constitution, instead perhaps passing an interim Basic Law, as the
Germans did, or 'constitutional laws' as the French did, and adopt
international norms of human rights, etc. - and put off a permanent
constitution for several years in the future.
An unsettled situation such as the Libyans have is not the time for writing
a Constitution.
Of course, abrogate whatever Gaddafi had in place!
Dennis
> Il 23/10/2011 01:51, William Black ha scritto:
>
>> If they do it all in eight months, probably using an 'off the shelf'
>> constitution with the words 'insert name of country here' in lots of
>> places, it'll take them an absolute minimum of two years to set
>> something up that'll be stable.
>
> Japanese constitution ? a bunch of very idealist US citizen-soldiers and
> in a week of work was drafted a very modern for their times model
> Constitution...
Well, yes, but the Nipponese didn't have much say, since the US citizen-
soldiers were occupying their countries.
The Libyans would do better IMHO to follow the example of the French Third
Republic and the post-WWII German Federal Republic, and avoid having a
formal constitution, instead perhaps passing an interim Basic Law, as the
Germans did, or 'constitutional laws' as the French did, and adopt
international norms of human rights, etc. - and put off a permanent
constitution for several years in the future.
An unsettled situation such as the Libyans have is not the time for writing
a Constitution.
Of course, abrogate whatever Gaddafi had in place!
Dennis
Dennis
Oct 24, 2011, 1:10:32 AM10/24/11
to
William Black wrote:
> Right now they've got nothing, and the 'Misrata Brigade' is currently
> powerful enough to deny the government access to the now deceased
> tyrant's body.
>
> If the current group claiming leadership tries to throw their weight
> about the whole place could just disintegrate.
>
> As Misrata is a major port and industrial centre it could probably go
> it alone.
Hmmmmm... that's a bit like Abraham Lincoln's remark about the front
> Right now they've got nothing, and the 'Misrata Brigade' is currently
> powerful enough to deny the government access to the now deceased
> tyrant's body.
>
> If the current group claiming leadership tries to throw their weight
> about the whole place could just disintegrate.
>
> As Misrata is a major port and industrial centre it could probably go
> it alone.
porch's setting up in business for itself.
Could come true, though.
Dennis
Keith W
Oct 24, 2011, 4:13:27 AM10/24/11
to
throw them out they are screwed.
Keith
William Black
Oct 24, 2011, 7:36:09 AM10/24/11
to
Gadaffy regime officials, many of whom are tainted, and the 'fighters'
who seem to represent nobody but themselves and the communities they
sprang from.
It's all looking horribly like Yugoslavia just before it all fell to bits.
William Black
Oct 24, 2011, 7:48:16 AM10/24/11
to
By now they'll have hired on a couple of hundred professional soldiers
and be ensconced in a walled compound with their own light support weapons.
All Niger has is an assortment of elderly French wheeled armoured cars
of variable serviceability and a number of ill trained highly
politicised soldiers, many of whom have links to Libya.
Now this motley crew had their hands full keeping the Tuareg from
declaring independence over the mineral rights in the area a couple of
years ago, and guess who managed to set up negotiations to stop that
war...
You guessed it...
Gadaffy...
Andrew Swallow
Oct 24, 2011, 10:24:46 AM10/24/11
to
On 23/10/2011 15:22, William Black wrote:
> On 23/10/11 14:28, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 23/10/2011 13:27, William Black wrote:
>>> On 23/10/11 08:36, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>> On 23/10/2011 00:52, William Black wrote:
>>>>> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of
>>>>>> that?
>>>>>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>>>>>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>>>>>
>>>>> You really think they'll find it?
>>>>>
>>>>> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> When they access the money we find out which bank it was in and the
>>>> number of the account.
>>>
>>> And what exactly do you do when you find it in the 'State Bank of Niger'
>>> or whatever it's called?
>>>
>>> Especially if the family has given Lieutenant General Salou Djibo, the
>>> current tyrant, half the interest...
>>>
>>> The Gadaffy family has bought the place.
>>>
>>
>> The Gadaffi family no longer have an army. Their arrogance will soon
>> upset the Niger locals.
>
> Get real, the British have tolerated their arrogant, ill mannered,
> violent and corrupt aristocracy for almost a thousand years.
>
The British aristocracy had an army and made certain that no one else did.
> On 23/10/11 14:28, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 23/10/2011 13:27, William Black wrote:
>>> On 23/10/11 08:36, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>> On 23/10/2011 00:52, William Black wrote:
>>>>> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of
>>>>>> that?
>>>>>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>>>>>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>>>>>
>>>>> You really think they'll find it?
>>>>>
>>>>> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> When they access the money we find out which bank it was in and the
>>>> number of the account.
>>>
>>> And what exactly do you do when you find it in the 'State Bank of Niger'
>>> or whatever it's called?
>>>
>>> Especially if the family has given Lieutenant General Salou Djibo, the
>>> current tyrant, half the interest...
>>>
>>> The Gadaffy family has bought the place.
>>>
>>
>> The Gadaffi family no longer have an army. Their arrogance will soon
>> upset the Niger locals.
>
> Get real, the British have tolerated their arrogant, ill mannered,
> violent and corrupt aristocracy for almost a thousand years.
>
> Very few sneering toffs on horseback have ever been pulled to the ground
> and kicked to death for behaving in their usual nasty manner, despite
> richly deserving it.
>
used to go in for are left out of modern history books.
Keith W
Oct 24, 2011, 1:16:06 PM10/24/11
to
Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> Get real, the British have tolerated their arrogant, ill mannered,
>> violent and corrupt aristocracy for almost a thousand years.
>>
>
> The British aristocracy had an army and made certain that no one else
> did.
Well now I dont recall Oliver Cromwell being an aristo and he sure built
>> Get real, the British have tolerated their arrogant, ill mannered,
>> violent and corrupt aristocracy for almost a thousand years.
>>
>
> The British aristocracy had an army and made certain that no one else
> did.
one hell of an army.
Keith
William Black
Oct 24, 2011, 1:33:57 PM10/24/11
to
gentleman' who farmed his own land.
Keith W
Oct 24, 2011, 3:11:43 PM10/24/11
to
William Black wrote:
> On 24/10/11 18:16, Keith W wrote:
>> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>
>>>> Get real, the British have tolerated their arrogant, ill mannered,
>>>> violent and corrupt aristocracy for almost a thousand years.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The British aristocracy had an army and made certain that no one
>>> else did.
>>
>> Well now I dont recall Oliver Cromwell being an aristo and he sure
>> built one hell of an army.
>
> He may not have been an aristo but he was certainly a 'country
> gentleman' who farmed his own land.
Minor gentry with a smallish piece of agricultural land that he farmed
> On 24/10/11 18:16, Keith W wrote:
>> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>
>>>> Get real, the British have tolerated their arrogant, ill mannered,
>>>> violent and corrupt aristocracy for almost a thousand years.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The British aristocracy had an army and made certain that no one
>>> else did.
>>
>> Well now I dont recall Oliver Cromwell being an aristo and he sure
>> built one hell of an army.
>
> He may not have been an aristo but he was certainly a 'country
> gentleman' who farmed his own land.
himself giving him an income of about £300 per year. In comparison
we know that one of his contemporaries , wood turner Nehemiah Wallington
of London was making over £500 per yearin good time and £400 in
a lean year. In 1640 he was a rather obscure backbench MP
for Cambridge.
Hardly the stuff the gilded Aristo is made of, in fact he was more akin
to the founding fathers of the USA than the titled denizens of the
House of Lords.
Keith
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 24, 2011, 3:34:14 PM10/24/11
to
Il 24/10/2011 06:55, Dennis ha scritto:
> dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
<snip>
Thank for your words. I'm happy that you give a good thought on my
words, sadly in a certain Italian NG certain lowlifes have rendered
impossible a rational discussion on my thought.
just few minutes ago I have treated one of these lowlifes as the
"zotico" he is, and I'm not in the debate mood, my apologies...
> dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
<snip>
Thank for your words. I'm happy that you give a good thought on my
words, sadly in a certain Italian NG certain lowlifes have rendered
impossible a rational discussion on my thought.
just few minutes ago I have treated one of these lowlifes as the
"zotico" he is, and I'm not in the debate mood, my apologies...
Peter Skelton
Oct 24, 2011, 4:49:22 PM10/24/11
to
--
Peter
Keith W
Oct 24, 2011, 4:51:46 PM10/24/11
to
He was a farmer in Cambridgeshire.
Keith
Peter Skelton
Oct 24, 2011, 5:22:09 PM10/24/11
to
notables. To claim that he was not part of the aristocracy is flatly
absurd.
--
Peter
William Black
Oct 24, 2011, 6:25:15 PM10/24/11
to
Keith W
Oct 24, 2011, 6:25:20 PM10/24/11
to
members was
Thomas Cromwell Cheid Minister to Henry VIII
Lets examine his aristocratic credentials.
He was born in Putney in 1485. His father was Walter Cromwell
who was at various times a blacksmith , a fuller and rose to own his
own pub and brewey.
As a young man he fought on the continent as a mercenary before
working for a merchant and eventually setting up in business
in his own right. He was detested by the courtly aristocracy as
a commoner and merchant.
Not exactly the story of an ancient aristocratic heritage is it ?
Keith
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Oct 24, 2011, 6:30:55 PM10/24/11
to
;-)
Peter Skelton
Oct 24, 2011, 6:46:20 PM10/24/11
to
landowners in his shire? And so on? Your unattributed quote is so biased
as to be disgusting.
--
Peter
William Black
Oct 24, 2011, 7:39:19 PM10/24/11
to
Dennis
Oct 24, 2011, 10:10:22 PM10/24/11
to
dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
<snip>
Syria-sly, everyone, US and NATO could certainly bring air and naval
assetss to bear on Syria now, but it's vastly different geopolitical
situation than Libya!!!!
Libya's central air defense systen was fairly antiquated, and thus fairly
easy to eliminate. Syria's is more up-to-date. Israel will have useful
intelligence, but eliminating it will be more difficult. Stocks of
Tomahawks and Storm Shadows are depleted, too.
More important, Libya was a mostly coastal state, and most thing were
within reach of gunboats and airplanes and helicopters flying along the
coast. The sea supply route had a much higher relative importance, and
British and Italian naval forces could easily block it. Rebel forces could
easily be supplied by sea.
Syria is an entirely different proposition! Many targets are far inland,
reachable only by airplane on long trips, over which they'll be vulnerable
to truck- and shoulder-mounted SAM fire and AA gunfire. Supplying and
training rebels will be much more difficult. Cutting off land supply lines
will for the regime will be far more difficult.
In short, I don't see how this is doable, unless Turkey should choose to
get involved, and I don't see why they would.
Dennis
<snip>
Syria-sly, everyone, US and NATO could certainly bring air and naval
assetss to bear on Syria now, but it's vastly different geopolitical
situation than Libya!!!!
Libya's central air defense systen was fairly antiquated, and thus fairly
easy to eliminate. Syria's is more up-to-date. Israel will have useful
intelligence, but eliminating it will be more difficult. Stocks of
Tomahawks and Storm Shadows are depleted, too.
More important, Libya was a mostly coastal state, and most thing were
within reach of gunboats and airplanes and helicopters flying along the
coast. The sea supply route had a much higher relative importance, and
British and Italian naval forces could easily block it. Rebel forces could
easily be supplied by sea.
Syria is an entirely different proposition! Many targets are far inland,
reachable only by airplane on long trips, over which they'll be vulnerable
to truck- and shoulder-mounted SAM fire and AA gunfire. Supplying and
training rebels will be much more difficult. Cutting off land supply lines
will for the regime will be far more difficult.
In short, I don't see how this is doable, unless Turkey should choose to
get involved, and I don't see why they would.
Dennis
Jonathan
Oct 24, 2011, 10:15:40 PM10/24/11
to
"William Black" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:j7vkv5$i9i$2...@dont-email.me...
> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>
>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>
> You really think they'll find it?
The paper said the US did an asset search. They said some
>
>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>
> You really think they'll find it?
$200 billion has been found.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/kadafi-bank-account-200-billion-hidden-cash-asset-search.html
>
> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
s
Jeffrey Hamilton
Oct 24, 2011, 10:59:40 PM10/24/11
to
cheers....Jeff
Keith W
Oct 25, 2011, 3:21:56 AM10/25/11
to
research, try it some time.
As for his grandfather his money came from Thomas Cromwell , the
son of a fuller. Do you know what a fuller did Peter ?
Keith
William Black
Oct 25, 2011, 10:21:35 AM10/25/11
to
On 25/10/11 03:15, Jonathan wrote:
> "William Black"<black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:j7vkv5$i9i$2...@dont-email.me...
>> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>>
>>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>>
>> You really think they'll find it?
>
>
> The paper said the US did an asset search. They said some
> $200 billion has been found.
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/kadafi-bank-account-200-billion-hidden-cash-asset-search.html
>
The US government can't even find out how the cocaine cartels are financed.
> "William Black"<black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:j7vkv5$i9i$2...@dont-email.me...
>> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>>
>>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>>
>> You really think they'll find it?
>
>
> The paper said the US did an asset search. They said some
> $200 billion has been found.
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/kadafi-bank-account-200-billion-hidden-cash-asset-search.html
>
The US asset search found half of qwhat yousay, an unnamed 'high Libyan
official' said $200 Billion.
So, the first and obvious question is "Who's appointing high officials
in Libya?"
>
>>
>> With half of his family away and free to spend it in Niger?
>
>
> Soon they'll only be worth the rewards on their heads.
Andrew Swallow
Oct 25, 2011, 2:03:32 PM10/25/11
to
Andrew Swallow
Keith W
Oct 25, 2011, 3:28:03 PM10/25/11
to
Army was subject to the control of Parliament. Annual continuation
notices still need to be passed to legalize the British Army.
The Army was established under the control of the War Office
headed by the Secretary at War, the modern titles being the Dept
of Defense and Minister of Defense
The first Secretary At War was William Clarke a politician who
had been Secretary of the Army under Cromwell. He was as they
say of 'obscure parentage'. You have to recall that it was a portion of
the Army under General Monck who brought about the restoration.
Neither Parliament nor Monarchy wanted a partisan army so great
care was taken over its control. There is a good reason why its
called the British Army not the Royal Army.
The most effective head of the War Office in the early restoration
period was William Blathwayte, a member of a prominent mercantile
family. He played a key part in promoting the charter of the
Massachusetts colony. As a leading member of the Whigs he was
hardly a champion of the aristocracy.
Keith
William Black
Oct 25, 2011, 4:33:18 PM10/25/11
to
Jonathan
Oct 25, 2011, 7:29:41 PM10/25/11
to
news:j86glf$63l$2...@dont-email.me...
well respected transitional council. They already have a
temporary constitution. And each city gets to appoint five
members to the council.
The spokesman for the council is a prominent Libyan
civil rights lawyer. And the Chairman of the transitional council
is an economist that also has a doctorate from the Univ of
Pittsburgh in political science. He resigned as promised once
the country was fully liberated and his deputy took over.
The new council chairman has been living in the US since the 1980's
and holds a doctorate from my alma matter of Michigan State Univ.
He's been a economics professor at the Univ of Washington
for the last 25 years.
America is not just a bystander in all this.
s
...
> On 25/10/11 03:15, Jonathan wrote:
>> "William Black"<black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:j7vkv5$i9i$2...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>>>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>>>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>>>
>>> You really think they'll find it?
>>
>>
>> The paper said the US did an asset search. They said some
>> $200 billion has been found.
>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/kadafi-bank-account-200-billion-hidden-cash-asset-search.html
>>
>
> The US government can't even find out how the cocaine cartels are
> financed.
>
> The US asset search found half of qwhat yousay, an unnamed 'high Libyan
> official' said $200 Billion.
>
> So, the first and obvious question is "Who's appointing high officials in
> Libya?"
You don't read the daily paper do you? Libya has a rather
>> "William Black"<black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:j7vkv5$i9i$2...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>>>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>>>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>>>
>>> You really think they'll find it?
>>
>>
>> The paper said the US did an asset search. They said some
>> $200 billion has been found.
>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/kadafi-bank-account-200-billion-hidden-cash-asset-search.html
>>
>
> The US government can't even find out how the cocaine cartels are
> financed.
>
> The US asset search found half of qwhat yousay, an unnamed 'high Libyan
> official' said $200 Billion.
>
> So, the first and obvious question is "Who's appointing high officials in
> Libya?"
well respected transitional council. They already have a
temporary constitution. And each city gets to appoint five
members to the council.
The spokesman for the council is a prominent Libyan
civil rights lawyer. And the Chairman of the transitional council
is an economist that also has a doctorate from the Univ of
Pittsburgh in political science. He resigned as promised once
the country was fully liberated and his deputy took over.
The new council chairman has been living in the US since the 1980's
and holds a doctorate from my alma matter of Michigan State Univ.
He's been a economics professor at the Univ of Washington
for the last 25 years.
America is not just a bystander in all this.
s
...
William Black
Oct 25, 2011, 7:42:43 PM10/25/11
to
On 26/10/11 00:29, Jonathan wrote:
> "William Black"<black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:j86glf$63l$2...@dont-email.me...
>> On 25/10/11 03:15, Jonathan wrote:
>>> "William Black"<black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:j7vkv5$i9i$2...@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>>>>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>>>>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>>>>
>>>> You really think they'll find it?
>>>
>>>
>>> The paper said the US did an asset search. They said some
>>> $200 billion has been found.
>>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/kadafi-bank-account-200-billion-hidden-cash-asset-search.html
>>>
>>
>> The US government can't even find out how the cocaine cartels are
>> financed.
>>
>> The US asset search found half of qwhat yousay, an unnamed 'high Libyan
>> official' said $200 Billion.
>>
>> So, the first and obvious question is "Who's appointing high officials in
>> Libya?"
>
>
> You don't read the daily paper do you?
In the UK there's more than one daily paper.
> "William Black"<black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:j86glf$63l$2...@dont-email.me...
>> On 25/10/11 03:15, Jonathan wrote:
>>> "William Black"<black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:j7vkv5$i9i$2...@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 22/10/11 13:54, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All that money didn't save him, I wonder what the Saudis think of that?
>>>>> Paper said he had some $200 billion stashed away. Libya gets to have
>>>>> a massive spending spree, which should help the new govt succeed.
>>>>
>>>> You really think they'll find it?
>>>
>>>
>>> The paper said the US did an asset search. They said some
>>> $200 billion has been found.
>>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/kadafi-bank-account-200-billion-hidden-cash-asset-search.html
>>>
>>
>> The US government can't even find out how the cocaine cartels are
>> financed.
>>
>> The US asset search found half of qwhat yousay, an unnamed 'high Libyan
>> official' said $200 Billion.
>>
>> So, the first and obvious question is "Who's appointing high officials in
>> Libya?"
>
>
> You don't read the daily paper do you?
They're all rubbish
In India, where I spend part of the year, I read one every day, but
I'm not there at the moment.
Libya has a rather
> well respected transitional council.
They already have a
> temporary constitution. And each city gets to appoint five
> members to the council.
Get back to me when they select their representatives on a basis that
isn't 'I've got 500 men with guns behind me'.
I'm sure there are well meaning people there but right now all I'm
seeing on TV is reports about how they're busy slaughtering their
enemies without trial.
> The spokesman for the council is a prominent Libyan
> civil rights lawyer. And the Chairman of the transitional council
> is an economist that also has a doctorate from the Univ of
> Pittsburgh in political science. He resigned as promised once
> the country was fully liberated and his deputy took over.
> The new council chairman has been living in the US since the 1980's
> and holds a doctorate from my alma matter of Michigan State Univ.
> He's been a economics professor at the Univ of Washington
> for the last 25 years.
>
> America is not just a bystander in all this.
As an Islamic party has just won the first free election in Tunisia just
what sort of a chance do you think your highly secularised academics are
going to have in any election?
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