Mixed feelings
Frogwatch
program tonight leaves me with somewhat mixed feelings. On one hand
it is sad that the most technically advanced nation cannot afford this
kind of exploration and on the other I know NASA has not done very
well in keeping costs down.
There are those who say that science can be done better by robots and
within limited constraints this might be true if one considers all new
bits of information to be equally valuable. However, if one considers
the usefulness of new information, then the ability of men to operate
in space becomes much more valuable than the properties of Sedna in
the near term.
However, if the US govt intends to essentially end the manned space
program, then they should really get out of the way and allow private
entities to do what the govt is incapable of doing. This means that
NASA should completely get out of the way and use private entities to
deliver supplies to the ISS and allow private use of the ISS since the
US govt is effectivcely abandoning it.
Next, whenever a private entity in the past has come close to
developing lower priced rockets, NASA has taken action to try to
undercut them. This has got to stop.
One can also easily foresee that when someone does get close to
developing cheaper access to space, the govt will put obstacles in the
way in order to preserve the monopoly of existing launchers.
I predict that the US govt will not land another man on the moon on a
govt developed rocket in my lifetime.
Ray O'Hara
"Frogwatch" <ohar...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:099df743-be54-485b...@g29g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
thank George Bush.
and hate radio too. Bush blew out the economy. and hate radio has so whipped
up the connedservatives that Obama has surrendered.
with a budget freeze Obama will learn what FDR learned in 1937. that cutting
Govt spemding in an economy when consumers can't and businesses won't spend
will lead to a contraction of the economy.
but you connedservatives will be proud when we are all in breadlines and
soup kitchens.
Frogwatch
> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
Get off your soapbox Ray, this was not intended as criticism of
Obama. I truly do have mixed feelings about NASA. Someone suggested
recently that a good role for NASA right now might be to develop a
satellite re-fueling capability and to re-fuel satellites and orbital
transfer vehicles. At least it would help in creating useful space
infrastucture.
David E. Powell
Not to mention Bush backed NASA and finally got a shuttle followup put
through.
Is today the anniversary of the Apollo 1 fire?
Politics aside, we can afford it, so I don't see a reason to cancel it
when social spending is being blown through the roof. It is miniscule
compared to that and stuff like TARP.
It just looks like a screw over of our space program and our tech base
to me. Word is the policy will be to encourage foreign rocket
development to shuttle our astronauts up to space.
Derek Lyons
>News that Obama essentially intends to cancel the US manned space
>program tonight leaves me with somewhat mixed feelings. On one hand
>it is sad that the most technically advanced nation cannot afford this
>kind of exploration and on the other I know NASA has not done very
>well in keeping costs down.
If the nation couldn't afford it, you'd have a point.
>However, if the US govt intends to essentially end the manned space
>program, then they should really get out of the way and allow private
>entities to do what the govt is incapable of doing.
If the goverment was in the way, you'd have a point.
>This means that NASA should completely get out of the way and use private
>entities to deliver supplies to the ISS
You seem to be ignorant (and really I could put a period on the
sentence and end the reply there) of the fact that NASA has contracts
out to do exactly that.
>and allow private use of the ISS since the US govt is effectivcely abandoning
>it.
If the goverment was doing that, you'd have a point.
>Next, whenever a private entity in the past has come close to
>developing lower priced rockets, NASA has taken action to try to
>undercut them.
If NASA had done that you'd have a point.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
tankfixer
@d14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, David_Po...@msn.com says...
NASA's mistake was not relocating to Chicago...
Mark Test
news:hjq8gi$lb8$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> thank George Bush.
> and hate radio too. Bush blew out the economy. and hate radio has so
> whipped up the connedservatives that Obama has surrendered.
> with a budget freeze Obama will learn what FDR learned in 1937. that
> cutting Govt spemding in an economy when consumers can't and businesses
> won't spend will lead to a contraction of the economy.
> but you connedservatives will be proud when we are all in breadlines and
> soup kitchens.
>
Primarily Geightner and co. with risky derivative trades (PBS frontline
covered it well), to failed mortgages by freddie and fannie (that Barney
Frank and the Fed said were good to go) failed.
Us conservatives just want government out of the way, and who told us
AIG was "too big to fail"? Oh yeah that would be Obama, not Bush.
Keep on believing that Pelosi and Reid have your best interest at heart....
Mark
Arved Sandstrom
Both the Democrats and the Republicans are fossilized, beholden to
special interests, fragmented and aimless. It's a mistake to believe -
in general - that representatives of either party have anyone's best
interests at heart except their own.
With all due respect you make a mistake when you say "us conservatives".
Us *who*? Conservative how, exactly? American-type conservatism (belief
in God, belief in capitalism, anti-communism, a special place for the US
in the world, stronger military (note the "stronger" - it's never strong
enough), smaller government, less taxes)? Moderate or extreme
American-type conservatism? Or more distinct? Christian conservatism?
Ideological conservatism? Classical conservatism? Libertarian
conservatism? Limited-government conservatism?
Point being, there are a lot of self-identified conservatives who think
Republicans and conservatives are one and the same thing. Which isn't
true. There happen to be more conservatives who are Republicans than
there are conservatives who are Democrats, yes, but it's not black and
white.
There are a lot of self-identified conservatives who think it's a
monolithic philosophy - it's not and never has been. *Your* type of
conservatism may be all for small government, but another type may not
care about that at all, or some of their other views may require a large
government. There are a lot of conservatives who are conservative
because they don't like the sound of the word "liberal", although they
don't have the first fucking clue what a liberal actually is (and of
course, there are several dozen different types of liberals also).
Do Pelosi and Reid have our best interests at heart? No. But neither do
the majority of those twats on the Republican side either.
It's best to just speak for yourself (never use the word "us") and never
use a vague, umbrella word like "conservative" or "liberal". One
specific group of people who call themselves "conservatives" genuinely
wants government out of the way - don't go concluding that other
self-identified conservatives want the same thing.
On a side-note, you can't just ask a person whether they favour smaller
government and less taxes and hope to get a useful reply. Because 99.9
percent of all people would agree and therefore you'd conclude that
everyone is "conservative". What you really need to do is to lay out the
consequences of a severely reduced government role and ask the question
again: in which case you won't locate too many fiscal conservatives.
People talk the good talk around this, but what they usually mean is
that other peoples' perks get cut but not their own.
AHS
Jack Linthicum
> "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Wow, what a memory. Remember October 2008? When the economy, the world
economy, hung in the balance? And reluctantly Bush and his people
passed a bailout act at $700 billion. All of the "too big to fail" was
in 2008, Bush's watch. And what brought it on? Seems like Bush started
with a surplus in the budget, worked that into $2.5 T, the 2009 budget
is Bush"s too, another $2 T plus
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/11/19/dont-blame-obama-for-bushs-2009-deficit/
Jack Linthicum
One thing that should accompany all of those poll results, the
questions. If you ask "What do think about that black man that's
President?" you will probably get a different answer than asking
"Obama was elected with a 53% margin, how's he doing?"
dott.Piergiorgio
> News that Obama essentially intends to cancel the US manned space
> program tonight leaves me with somewhat mixed feelings. On one hand
> it is sad that the most technically advanced nation cannot afford this
> kind of exploration and on the other I know NASA has not done very
> well in keeping costs down.
do you have (news, not blogs) links to this rumour ?
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Jack Linthicum
Local paper, Cape is in this paper's area
January 28, 2010
Despite expected budget infusion, thousands at KSC lose
BY TODD HALVORSON and BART JANSEN
FLORIDA TODAY
President Barack Obama will ask Congress to extend International Space
Station operations through at least 2020 but abandon NASA's current
plans to return U.S. astronauts to the moon, administration and NASA
officials said Wednesday.
The president's 2011 budget request, due to be delivered to Congress
on Monday, will direct NASA to invest in the development of U.S.
commercial space taxi services to ferry American astronauts to and
from the station.
The move is meant to reduce reliance on Russian crew transportation
services after the retirement of America's aging shuttle fleet.
The administration will provide for a safe fly-out of five remaining
shuttle missions -- even if the final flights slip into 2011. But an
option to extend shuttle operations through 2015 is being cast aside,
officials said. Obama's aim is to turn NASA once again into "an engine
for innovation," one that will spur the development of commercial
industry in low Earth orbit.
The focus will be on developing technologies that would enable
sustainable human expeditions beyond Earth orbit. But those journeys
are not likely to take place before the early 2020s.
Despite a fiscal freeze on most discretionary programs, NASA's budget
will be increased by $6 billion over the next five years for a total
of $100 billion.
"Budgets are very tight," said former astronaut Sally Ride, who served
on a presidential panel that determined NASA's current Project
Constellation -- the post-shuttle program -- is on "an unsustainable
trajectory."
"For NASA to be getting new money over the projections is to me an
indication of how seriously this administration takes NASA and our
goal of future innovations for this country."
The administration hopes to create 1,700 jobs in Florida and 5,000
jobs nationwide, helping to offset an anticipated loss of 7,000 jobs
at Kennedy Space Center after the shuttle program's shutdown.
But some in Congress are not happy.
"My biggest fear is that this amounts to a slow death of our nation's
human spaceflight program, a retreat from America's decades of
leadership in space, ending the economic advantages that our space
program has brought to the U.S. and ceding space to the Russians,
Chinese and others," said U.S. Rep. Bill Posey, R-Rockledge.
"Until we have a clearer plan for the future, the only realistic and
reasonable way to preserve America's leadership in space is to provide
for a temporary extension of the shuttle," he said.
NASA since 2004 has invested $9 billion in developing the
Constellation program's Ares I and Ares V rockets and the Apollo-style
Orion crew capsule for missions to the moon, Mars and, in the event no
commercial means becomes available, the International Space Station.
The agency also planned to develop a rocket stage to propel astronauts
from low Earth to lunar orbit, and a lunar lander dubbed Altair.
The idea was to return American astronauts to the moon by 2020. But
the presidential panel convened by Obama to review NASA's plans
determined that a human lunar return was unlikely before 2028.
The panel favored the development of commercial crew transportation
services, a move that would be a radical shift in national space
policy. NASA since the late 1950s has developed rockets and spacecraft
flown by U.S. astronauts.
"We really do believe it is time for American companies to come into
this program in a way that they have on the cargo side for decades
now," a senior NASA official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
"This is a serious, serious effort that we believe will reduce the
gap" between shuttle retirement and the first flights of successor
craft, the official said.
So, what does all this mean for KSC? Here are some of the
implications:
# Commercial crew taxi services: One of the two companies now under
NASA contract to launch cargo to the International Space Station --
SpaceX -- will be operating at Launch Complex 40 at Cape Canaveral Air
Force Station.
A competition presumably would be held to select a company to provide
commercial crew transportation services, and it's almost certain that
KSC and Cape Canaveral would be among the launch sites considered.
Senior administration officials said the commercial launch services --
both cargo and crew -- are expected to result in more new jobs and a
higher launch rate on the Space Coast.
A higher launch rate would be good for business throughout Brevard
County, particularly in the tourist industry.
# Extending space station operations through 2020: NASA officials,
U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Orlando, and others aim to secure payload
processing business for extended station operations.
Scientific experiments and cargo all must be prepped for launch, and
it makes sense to locate that business near the launch site.
# No moon missions: The Obama administration aims to ramp up NASA's
technology development programs, which have atrophied over the last
several years, and make "strategic investments" at KSC, according to a
senior administration space policy adviser.
The idea is to turn KSC into a "launch complex of the future," making
it increasingly attractive to commercial space launch companies, the
adviser said.
Technology development efforts, some of which might focus on building
heavy-lift launch vehicles, would be conducted at KSC along with other
endeavors that would enable eventual human expeditions beyond Earth
orbit.
Obama's space plan will be a hard sell in Congress. Even ardent Obama
supporters and some key space advisers are taken aback.
"If some of the reports about the president's plans for NASA's budget
are correct, it would decimate the space program," a Nelson spokesman
said.
NASA's planned return to the moon is behind schedule because about $12
billion budgeted for the project was not appropriated by Congress
during the past six years.
But Project Constellation enjoys strong bipartisan support in both the
U.S. House and the Senate, and Congress will have a big say in the
plan for NASA.
The Joint Finance-Appropriations Committee passed legislation in
December that requires broader congressional approval to change NASA's
existing exploration program.
"I think that's the intent of the language," said U.S. Rep. Suzanne
Kosmas, D-New Smyrna Beach. "It does give us hopefully some ability to
weigh in."
Posey said, "This issue is far from over."
Contact Halvorson at 639-0576 or thalv...@floridatoday.com. Jansen
reported from Washington.
Additional Facts
NASA clears shuttle for Feb. 7 launch
NASA set Feb. 7 as the firm launch date for shuttle Endeavour and a
mission to the International Space Station at the conclusion of an
executive-level flight readiness review Wednesday at Kennedy Space
Center.
Endeavour and six astronauts are slated to blast off from launch pad
39A at 4:39 a.m., the middle of a 10-minute opportunity to put the
shuttle on course for a rendezvous with the station.
Mark Test
news:2Rd8n.63371$PH1.5501@edtnps82...
> Mark Test wrote:
>> "Ray O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hjq8gi$lb8$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> thank George Bush.
>>> and hate radio too. Bush blew out the economy. and hate radio has so
>>> whipped up the connedservatives that Obama has surrendered.
>>> with a budget freeze Obama will learn what FDR learned in 1937. that
>>> cutting Govt spemding in an economy when consumers can't and businesses
>>> won't spend will lead to a contraction of the economy.
>>> but you connedservatives will be proud when we are all in breadlines and
>>> soup kitchens.
>>>
>> Christ Ray....for the market crash there is more than enough blame.
>> Primarily Geightner and co. with risky derivative trades (PBS frontline
>> covered it well), to failed mortgages by freddie and fannie (that Barney
>> Frank and the Fed said were good to go) failed.
>>
>> Us conservatives just want government out of the way, and who told us
>> AIG was "too big to fail"? Oh yeah that would be Obama, not Bush.
>>
>> Keep on believing that Pelosi and Reid have your best interest at
>> heart....
>>
>> Mark
>
> Both the Democrats and the Republicans are fossilized, beholden to special
> interests, fragmented and aimless. It's a mistake to believe - in
> general - that representatives of either party have anyone's best
> interests at heart except their own.
>
> With all due respect you make a mistake when you say "us conservatives".
> Us *who*? Conservative how, exactly? American-type conservatism (belief in
> God, belief in capitalism, anti-communism, a special place for the US in
> the world, stronger military (note the "stronger" - it's never strong
> enough), smaller government, less taxes)? Moderate or extreme
> American-type conservatism? Or more distinct? Christian conservatism?
> Ideological conservatism? Classical conservatism? Libertarian
> conservatism? Limited-government conservatism?
>
Hmmmm, just the core values, small govt, low taxes, and less dependence
on govt.
> Point being, there are a lot of self-identified conservatives who think
> Republicans and conservatives are one and the same thing. Which isn't
> true. There happen to be more conservatives who are Republicans than there
> are conservatives who are Democrats, yes, but it's not black and white.
>
Concur....
> There are a lot of self-identified conservatives who think it's a
> monolithic philosophy - it's not and never has been. *Your* type of
> conservatism may be all for small government, but another type may not
> care about that at all, or some of their other views may require a large
> government. There are a lot of conservatives who are conservative because
> they don't like the sound of the word "liberal", although they don't have
> the first fucking clue what a liberal actually is (and of course, there
> are several dozen different types of liberals also).
>
Concur...
> Do Pelosi and Reid have our best interests at heart? No. But neither do
> the majority of those twats on the Republican side either.
>
Yep, the only thing worse than a child molester is a politician.
> It's best to just speak for yourself (never use the word "us") and never
> use a vague, umbrella word like "conservative" or "liberal". One specific
> group of people who call themselves "conservatives" genuinely wants
> government out of the way - don't go concluding that other self-identified
> conservatives want the same thing.
>
> On a side-note, you can't just ask a person whether they favour smaller
> government and less taxes and hope to get a useful reply. Because 99.9
> percent of all people would agree and therefore you'd conclude that
> everyone is "conservative". What you really need to do is to lay out the
> consequences of a severely reduced government role and ask the question
> again: in which case you won't locate too many fiscal conservatives.
> People talk the good talk around this, but what they usually mean is that
> other peoples' perks get cut but not their own.
>
Quite correct....No one man should speak for another.
Mark
Mark Test
news:b8e5b6cb-6893-4d58...@b10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
houses....Did Bush ever say "too big to fail"? I don't recall him ever
saying
that. Bush was on track to reduce the deficit....then TARP and that went to
crap.
As for the cause...Fed printing money, keeping interest rates low, freddie
and
fannie writing bad morgtages, and banks losing it all in the derivatives
market.
The majority of the blame falls on Greenspan's shoulders as history will
show...also Bush tried to reign in Freddie and Fannie, but was always
blocked
by the Dems (who were in control).
Obama has had a year to do something...all he did was try to takeover
our health care system....so much for the people and jobs...oh yeah,
he was quite successful at locking the Republicans out of all the decisions
in DC too.
Mark
Jack Linthicum
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
So Bush is not responsible for anything in his eight years?
Andrew Swallow
> On Jan 28, 4:06 pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
> <dott.PiergiorgioNI...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it> wrote:
>> Frogwatch ha scritto:
>>
>>> News that Obama essentially intends to cancel the US manned space
>>> program tonight leaves me with somewhat mixed feelings. On one hand
>>> it is sad that the most technically advanced nation cannot afford this
>>> kind of exploration and on the other I know NASA has not done very
>>> well in keeping costs down.
>> do you have (news, not blogs) links to this rumour ?
The return to the Moon mission has gone. The 2 rockets being designed
for the job may have gone. Their completion date was unknown but under
a different president or two.
A new rocket to take people into space is currently being discussed.
Hopefully its approval will come through in the next few days.
Andrew Swallow
Jack Linthicum
Here in Florida we seem to get an early word. The problems is 14,000
or so workers whose jobs depend on the Shuttle today will be leaving
or retiring. Then you have to train a new group.
Andrew Swallow
>>
>> A new rocket to take people into space is currently being discussed.
>> Hopefully its approval will come through in the next few days.
>>
>> Andrew Swallow
>
> Here in Florida we seem to get an early word. The problems is 14,000
> or so workers whose jobs depend on the Shuttle today will be leaving
> or retiring. Then you have to train a new group.
The last Space Shuttle flight is approaching and the replacement rocket
was many years in the future. This is the human space flight gap.
With nothing to launch NASA does not need the Kennedy Space Centre
workers so all the contractors were going to be fired.
Andrew Swallow
Alex Potter
Whereas if we, that is, Earth's people, hadn't been so busy working out
how to deliver annihilation half way around the globe for the last 60 or
so years, but instead had worked towards building ships for the
exploration and exploitation of space, the space industry would be
booming today, although probably not on Earth.
We could probably have had a space station in Earth orbit by 1960. It
makes no sense to develop spacecraft or begin voyages of discovery at the
bottom of a gravity well. Trips to the Moon are all very well for
tourists, but they're not exactly useful to the greater goal of removing
a single point of failure for the genetic experiment that is homo
sapiens, whereas mining the resources of the Asteroid belt in order to
build stuff in free-fall is, IMO.
But like an Irishman said to me once[1], "well, I wouldn't be starting
from here to go there"
[1] really
--
Regards
Alex
tankfixer
b7580e...@e37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net
says...
Obama's black ?
tankfixer
b7e970...@d34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net
says...> > [quoted text muted]
> > do you have (news, not blogs) links to this rumour ?
> >
> > Best regards from Italy,
> > Dott. Piergiorgio.
>
> Local paper, Cape is in this paper's area
>
>
> January 28, 2010
>
> Despite expected budget infusion, thousands at KSC lose
>
>
All those living wage jobs.. gone..
Jack Linthicum
> In article <a526591e-57b8-4e72-93a3-
> b7e9709d2...@d34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthi...@earthlink.net
> says...
>
>
>
> > On Jan 28, 4:06 pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
> > <dott.PiergiorgioNI...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it> wrote:
> > > [quoted text muted]
> > > do you have (news, not blogs) links to this rumour ?
>
> > > Best regards from Italy,
> > > Dott. Piergiorgio.
>
> > Local paper, Cape is in this paper's area
>
> > January 28, 2010
>
> > Despite expected budget infusion, thousands at KSC lose
>
> All those living wage jobs.. gone..
Or that nifty little idea stuck back in someone's brain for 20 years
gets a few bucks from the Gov and starts something big. Best current
example Google, a Stanford University garage project in the tradition
of Hewlett-Packard and other Terman apostles.
Mark Test
He is responsible for the massive 600 billion medicare increase, allowing
bad mortgage practices to occur, and for allowing Greenspan to remain
in place. He is also responsible for us being out of Iraq this August.
Mark
Jack Linthicum
If we get the Republicans to say "yes" to it.
You know about this little bit, I presume, the Republicans are the
nays.
U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 111th Congress - 2nd Session
as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the
direction of the Secretary of the Senate
Vote Summary
Question: On the Amendment (Reid Amdt. No. 3305 )
Vote Number: 12 Vote Date: January 28, 2010, 11:41 AM
Required For Majority: 3/5
Vote Result: Amendment Agreed to
Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 3305 to S.Amdt. 3299 to H.J.Res. 45 (No
short title on file)
Statement of Purpose: To reimpose statutory pay-as-you-go.
Vote Counts: YEAs 60
NAYs 40
Jack Linthicum
>
> > News that Obama essentially intends to cancel the US manned space
> > program tonight leaves me with somewhat mixed feelings. On one hand
> > it is sad that the most technically advanced nation cannot afford this
> > well in keeping costs down.
>
> do you have (news, not blogs) links to this rumour ?
>
> Best regards from Italy,
> Dott. Piergiorgio.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/science/space/29nasa.html?hpw
Jack Linthicum
If you want to see Republicans beaten into a mushy mess
http://www.cspan.org/Watch/Media/2010/01/29/HP/R/28993/President+Speaks+at+GOP+Retreat.aspx
Dan
> "Ray O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hjq8gi$lb8$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> thank George Bush.
>> and hate radio too. Bush blew out the economy. and hate radio has so
>> whipped up the connedservatives that Obama has surrendered.
>> with a budget freeze Obama will learn what FDR learned in 1937. that
>> cutting Govt spemding in an economy when consumers can't and
>> businesses won't spend will lead to a contraction of the economy.
>> but you connedservatives will be proud when we are all in breadlines
>> and soup kitchens.
>>
> Christ Ray....for the market crash there is more than enough blame.
True enough.
> Primarily Geightner and co. with risky derivative trades (PBS frontline
> covered it well),
Forced upon them by deregulation. When your competition offers a
"better" product, are you going to stick with the old one while all your
customers follow yield and drive you out of business?
Let's not put the cart before the horse. Some people did go crazy, but
they could not have done so 15 years or so ago (thanks to the Great
Satan FDR).
> to failed mortgages by freddie and fannie (that Barney
> Frank and the Fed said were good to go) failed.
And what did BF have to do with F&F in 2006? For that matter, what did
F&F have to do with the failure of the regulation of mortgage markets?
Enquiring minds want to know...
> Us conservatives just want government out of the way,
Um, Skippy, THAT is exactly what got us INTO this mess... It is good
that a "conservative" admits to wanting to destroy the nation, but
hardly a good advertising slogan for your cause...
> and who told us
> AIG was "too big to fail"? Oh yeah that would be Obama, not Bush.
??? Obama was President when AIG got its money from TARP? Hmmm.
> Keep on believing that Pelosi and Reid have your best interest at heart....
I believe no such thing.
Dan
dott.Piergiorgio
>
> The return to the Moon mission has gone. The 2 rockets being designed
> for the job may have gone. Their completion date was unknown but under
> a different president or two.
>
> A new rocket to take people into space is currently being discussed.
> Hopefully its approval will come through in the next few days.
I have get the references (and the unavoidable commenting in
space-related sites) and I start to suspect that the true target isn't
the NASA, but the so-called "military-industrial complex", whose control
also the production of space hardware.
Everyone knew that trailblazing in new oceans is gov't matters, and I
guess that I as Italian have a well clear picture on the Navigatori (not
the class, but the namesakes !) So I limit to point that Columbus was
sent by the Spanish gov't, Vespucci from the Portugese gov't and the
Caboto from the English gov't.....
returning to space matters, I think that the *really* questionable
business, industrial and R&D practices of the US areospace & defenze
industries are starting to flooding also into the space sector (among
many other strategic sectors..) so a first "warning shot" of sort is
actually not only needed, but also overdue...
Also, don't think that civilian enterpraineurs w/o connection with the
"mainstream" (and definitively ill & rotten) areospace/defense industry
can have enough elbow space for emerging in the space industry, whose
seems to me not having "niche markets" to encroach safely away from the
rotten tyrants of the aerospace & defense, so I seriously doubt on the
capability of (true) free enterprise of doing innovation & change.
In this picture, is obvious that somewhere should be fired the warning
shot sooner....
dott.Piergiorgio
> We could probably have had a space station in Earth orbit by 1960. It
> makes no sense to develop spacecraft or begin voyages of discovery at the
> bottom of a gravity well. Trips to the Moon are all very well for
> tourists, but they're not exactly useful to the greater goal of removing
> a single point of failure for the genetic experiment that is homo
> sapiens, whereas mining the resources of the Asteroid belt in order to
> build stuff in free-fall is, IMO.
well, actually the designs and technical studies & reports for late 50s
and 1960s US space station are pretty easy to find & DL from the 'Net:
So I assume you have a decent enough idea. But, thinking as a Historian
first, I guess that the Space Race and the Cold War are too intertwined,
and the start-up of the space age can't be disjointed from the milieu in
which an October night many Americans notice the new, bright & fast
moving star in the sky....
As pointed in another discussion, the core issue lie in the
"military-industrial complex" whose should be stopped and checked ASAP,
for the world's sake (and I dare, also for the capitalism's sake...)
Alex Potter
> well, actually the designs and technical studies & reports for late 50s
> and 1960s US space station are pretty easy to find & DL from the 'Net:
>
> http://ntrs.nasa.gov/
>
> So I assume you have a decent enough idea.
Thanks for that link. I note that there's nothing "space station" related
in that archive until 1960, except for Wernher Von Braun's illustration,
which I first saw when it was published in the 'Eagle', a boys' comic in
the UK, probably in 1952(?). I was 5 or 6 at the time. It was very
exciting for a small boy!
<http://mix.msfc.nasa.gov/IMAGES/MEDIUM/9132079.jpg>
--
Regards
Alex
dott.Piergiorgio
Thanks. I have also done a broad research, and have posted my
provisional opinion....
dott.Piergiorgio
there's something of 1958/1959 vintage... try to use "laboratory" in the
mix of "magic words"
ah, the best thing to do is following the menu availability
options-->online-->PDF prior of inserting the "magic words" to serach
(or browse down) to have to trudge along actual & top-dog ubergeek files ;)
dott.Piergiorgio
Thanks. I have also done a broad research, and have posted my
provisional opinion....
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
tankfixer
698cc0...@n7g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net
says...
Then bravo for that one guy who can take that idea and profit from NASA
laying him off.
All the rest might send resumes to India, China and Russia, they have
space programs
tankfixer
fd9e36...@h2g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net
says...
You mean the speech where the president made a lie of his very recent
claim of wanting bipartisanship ?
dott.Piergiorgio
> You're really an idiot politically and economically, aren't you?
provocation noticed and avoided.
noticed also that mr. engineer McCall has preferred to reply on the
political/economical side than the technological side...
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Hal Murray
>Here in Florida we seem to get an early word. The problems is 14,000
>or so workers whose jobs depend on the Shuttle today will be leaving
>or retiring. Then you have to train a new group.
Let's use 7 shuttle launches per year. It makes nice round numbers.
Does it really take 2000 man years to launch each Shuttle?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
Hal Murray
>So I assume you have a decent enough idea. But, thinking as a Historian
>first, I guess that the Space Race and the Cold War are too intertwined,
>and the start-up of the space age can't be disjointed from the milieu in
>which an October night many Americans notice the new, bright & fast
>moving star in the sky....
I saw Echo when I was a kid.
I've seen several Iridium flashers.
If I'm spending a night out under the start without lights
(desert or mountains) I expect to see at least one satellite,
usually several.
Eugene Griessel
hal-u...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net (Hal Murray) wrote:
>
>>So I assume you have a decent enough idea. But, thinking as a Historian
>>first, I guess that the Space Race and the Cold War are too intertwined,
>>and the start-up of the space age can't be disjointed from the milieu in
>>which an October night many Americans notice the new, bright & fast
>>moving star in the sky....
>
>I saw Echo when I was a kid.
>
>I've seen several Iridium flashers.
>
>If I'm spending a night out under the start without lights
>(desert or mountains) I expect to see at least one satellite,
>usually several.
I saw the original Sputnik. However I have subsequently been told it
was the booster stage and not Sputnik. Also saw Skylab on the final
third of its orbit.
Eugene L Griessel
'Hey, there's a gigantic wooden horse outside and all the Greeks
have left. Let's bring it inside!' Not a formula for long-term
survival. Now if they had formed a task force to study the Trojan
Horse and report back to a committee, everyone wouldn't have been
massacred. Who says middle management is useless?
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
Richard Casady
This group is not Sci although it once was. It is not military,
although it once was, and it is not naval, although it once once.
So you post is perfectly acceptable since there is no such thing as
off charter, although there one was. The non naval stuff chased the
founder of the group, Andrew Toppen away, but that is ancient history.
That said, that is a nice piece of writing and I like it.
Casady
Jack Linthicum
> In article <c6fec7ce-c0fb-47fe-ae46-
> fd9e360ac...@h2g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthi...@earthlink.net
>
> You mean the speech where the president made a lie of his very recent
> claim of wanting bipartisanship ?
And then proceded to outline where in several bills the Democrats had
accepted Republican ideas? The Republicans came with their oversized
"think books" and got totally drilled by the President using what he
knew off the top of his head. Try reading all of the q&a.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/29/transcript-of-president-o_n_442423.html
dott.Piergiorgio
> :> You're really an idiot politically and economically, aren't you?
> :
> :provocation noticed and avoided.
> :
>
> Cowardice noted and derided.
noticed the resort to the classical blame to Italians: how pathetic....
I'm thinking of translating, redacting & post one or a pair of works of
mine, circa 1997 (that is, covered by the statute of limitations) so
people understand the actual level of phlegmatic restraint in my
political discussions here....
Dott. Piergiorgio.
dott.Piergiorgio
>> If I'm spending a night out under the start without lights
>> (desert or mountains) I expect to see at least one satellite,
>> usually several.
>
> I saw the original Sputnik. However I have subsequently been told it
> was the booster stage and not Sputnik. Also saw Skylab on the final
> third of its orbit.
Some of the advantage of being in SA... Over here in Italy is rather
improbable the passage of interesting LEO bodies....
Side note, a week ago, the sky here was so limpid that I can see at
least two magnitudes more than normally, to the point that I first
thinked "WTF that there are power and Naples blackouted ?"
tankfixer
01f270...@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net
says...
Accepting a few amendments to bills is hardly the hope and change he
promised.
It certainly does not approach anything like bipartisanship.
Richard Casady
<am.sw...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>Jack Linthicum wrote:
>> On Jan 28, 5:53 pm, Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>{snip}
>
>>>
>>> A new rocket to take people into space is currently being discussed.
>>> Hopefully its approval will come through in the next few days.
>>>
>>> Andrew Swallow
>>
>> Here in Florida we seem to get an early word. The problems is 14,000
>> or so workers whose jobs depend on the Shuttle today will be leaving
>> or retiring. Then you have to train a new group.
>
>The last Space Shuttle flight is approaching and the replacement rocket
>was many years in the future. This is the human space flight gap.
>With nothing to launch NASA does not need the Kennedy Space Centre
>workers so all the contractors were going to be fired.
>
>Andrew Swallow
It is discouraging to watch our leaders throw away the last and best
hope for the entire race. Get off the planet before we render it
incapable of supporting a civilisation. That is about done, and now we
are trying to render the place incapable of supporting warm blood
life. I don't think we can kill every single reptile and fish. BTW I
do have a pet reptile, Bolt Cutter the snapping turtle. I raise mice
and feed him the babies, and I feed him gold fish from the pet store.
Bolt Cutter bangs his head on the glass of his tank when he sees me.
He recognizes the hand that feeds him. I read that farm catfish gather
on the surface of the pond when they hear the food truck once a day.
Since I read that they found goldfish have an attention span of seven
seconds, I was surprised to read it is a day for catfish.
Casady
Richard Casady
wrote:
>In article <a526591e-57b8-4e72-93a3-
>b7e970...@d34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net
>says...
>> On Jan 28, 4:06�pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
>> <dott.PiergiorgioNI...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it> wrote:
>> > [quoted text muted]
>> > do you have (news, not blogs) links to this rumour ?
>> >
>> > Best regards from Italy,
>> > Dott. Piergiorgio.
>>
>> Local paper, Cape is in this paper's area
>>
>>
>> January 28, 2010
>>
>> Despite expected budget infusion, thousands at KSC lose
>>
>>
>
>All those living wage jobs.. gone..
Tank, it is far worse than that. The last best hope for the survival
of the Human Race, gone. Space can save us even if we utter destroy
the planet with greed. Space is rich far beyond the wildest dreams of
the greediest man who ever lived. Obama chose to throw it away.
He actually thinks black skin makes him uniquely qualified for the
job. He is hopeless. He is worse than Hitler. Our space program began
with Hitler's V-2. It ended with Obama arrogance.
Casady
Casady
Richard Casady
We all know who won WWII. I am amused by the simple fact that Hitler
was too nuts to keep from founding the US and Russian Space Programs.
Ironic when he is so widely considered to be evilest man who ever
lived. With comptition like Gengis Khan, pol pot, Mao ZeDung, Joe
Stalin. Those last two murdered at least fifty million of their own
people. The best hope for the survival of the Human species is space
and Obama just threw it away. Who is evil.? Bush _was_ the worst
president we ever had. Took him 8 years to salt down and tamp the
title. Obama has done that already. Quite sad actually.
Casady
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
So non-government commercial exploitation of space is worse than
government run exploitation of space?
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:49:15 -0800, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >In article <a526591e-57b8-4e72-93a3-
> >b7e9709d2...@d34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthi...@earthlink.net
> >> On Jan 28, 4:06 pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
> >> <dott.PiergiorgioNI...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it> wrote:
> >> > [quoted text muted]
> >> > do you have (news, not blogs) links to this rumour ?
>
> >> > Best regards from Italy,
> >> > Dott. Piergiorgio.
>
> >> Local paper, Cape is in this paper's area
>
> >> January 28, 2010
>
> >> Despite expected budget infusion, thousands at KSC lose
>
> >All those living wage jobs.. gone..
>
> Tank, it is far worse than that. The last best hope for the survival
> of the Human Race, gone. Space can save us even if we utter destroy
> the planet with greed. Space is rich far beyond the wildest dreams of
> the greediest man who ever lived. Obama chose to throw it away.
> He actually thinks black skin makes him uniquely qualified for the
> job. He is hopeless. He is worse than Hitler. Our space program began
> with Hitler's V-2. It ended with Obama arrogance.
>
> Casady
>
> Casady
Greening up the place where 6 billion people can live without shelters
that protect them from the lack of breathable atmosphere, and cosmic
radiation is not a long-term solution? Look up Tsilikovskii sometime.
Jack Linthicum
> In article <94cee117-38a2-4074-bd91-
> 01f270939...@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthi...@earthlink.net
>
> Accepting a few amendments to bills is hardly the hope and change he
> promised.
> It certainly does not approach anything like bipartisanship.
Did the point that the original bill, which the Republicans rejected,
was nearly identical to one that Howard Baker, Bob Dole and (Horrors)
Tom Daschle offered, miss you? Did you pay any attention to the folk
myths offered by the Republicans were shot down immediately by this
President? To become bi-partisan you have to play the game. Sitting on
the sidelines and saying "No" may get you time on Fox but after all is
said it won't get you a place in the game.
tankfixer
4fe9c3...@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net
says...
Obama's call to have regular meeting with both parties leadership is a
good step towards the openness and bipartisanship he promised.
The last few presidents certainly thought it was a good idea and did so.
Obama has not since his coronation.
Could that have been the hope and change he was promising ?
That he would just not talk to the opposition at all ?
Mark Borgerson
richar...@earthlink.net says...
getting out of the space business. Isn't it better if that
opportunity be left to the private sector, where it can be done
more efficiently by for-profit companies? Why should space
colonization be different from that on earth-- which was often
funded by private companies looking to exploit resources to be
found somewhere out there! ;-)
Mark Borgerson
Jack Linthicum
> In article <138ad76f-3643-496b-8199-
> 4fe9c35f5...@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthi...@earthlink.net
Maybe found that they were voting against bills that they had co-
sponsored?
or this little feat where Republicans voted 100% against "Pay as you
go" a basic tenet of the Republican Party.
Ray O'Hara
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:138ad76f-3643-496b...@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
==========================================================================
Bi-partisan is wingnutter for , "accept our plan comppletely"
anything other than a 100% acceptance of the Republican plan is 100%
unacceptable.
just like with Clinton, when the republicans lose an election they will go
to any length to overtuern or thart the results.
What pisses me off is the Dems refuse to understand this.
the Repubs are not going to co-operate to help pass a good bill.
Obama would get credit and that can not be allowed to happen.
Jack Linthicum
I have this teeny-tiny thought that between now and November the Tea
Party is going to ruin the Republican Party through voting in their
primary elections. If every key district is represented by Doug
Hoffmans the normal voter is not going to vote for them. I could be
wrong and the Republicans could maintain discipline and get good
candidates nominated, but so far no sign.
Ray O'Hara
"Richard Casady" <richar...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bl9am5p5vqtg4u0mo...@4ax.com...
>/9132079.jpg>
>
> We all know who won WWII. I am amused by the simple fact that Hitler
> was too nuts to keep from founding the US and Russian Space Programs.
> Ironic when he is so widely considered to be evilest man who ever
> lived. With comptition like Gengis Khan, pol pot, Mao ZeDung, Joe
> Stalin. Those last two murdered at least fifty million of their own
> people. The best hope for the survival of the Human species is space
> and Obama just threw it away. Who is evil.? Bush _was_ the worst
> president we ever had. Took him 8 years to salt down and tamp the
> title. Obama has done that already. Quite sad actually.
>
> Casady
that is the most amazing rant I've read.
Yeah, poor Adolf, he wasn't so bad. riiight, he's just misundersttod.
and cutting back on going to the moon dooms mankind, because if we don't do
it now, well then we'll never do it.
so Obama is more evil that hitting. after all Hitler only started a war that
killed close to 100,000,000, but Obama has killed us all.
"we're not going back to the moon, WE'RE DOOMED, THE HORROR THE HORROR!.
Obama has hads an entire year to fix what it took buah 8 to screw up so he
is a total failure compared to bush.
you are the dumbest motherfucker posting here and that included Vincent
Quinn.
.
Ray O'Hara
"Hal Murray" <hal-u...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> wrote in message
news:_Zednelo0PyZf_7W...@megapath.net...
>
> I saw Echo when I was a kid.
>
> I've seen several Iridium flashers.
>
> If I'm spending a night out under the start without lights
> (desert or mountains) I expect to see at least one satellite,
> usually several.
>
http://spaceweather.com/flybys/
go to that URL. type in your location. it will show which satalites are
visible in your locale. time, direction of travel and where to look in the
sky and duration of transit.
Ray O'Hara
we're doomed, DOOMED I say!.
you cheer on the pollution and rape of the planetrs resources andthen whine
we can't escape it.
we can slow down the rape odf the earth, but that might hurt someones
profits, and profits are sacred.
you are a loon.
Ray O'Hara
====================================================================================
and of course the space program can never be restarted. once we call
off/delay going to the moon that's it. we'll never do it.
it's like that fool Governor of Va the other night in the repugnut response
said, we must use all on our resources NOW!
why save for the future we'll all be dead. what good does saving do us.
dott.Piergiorgio
(and following the links to the actual "text")
Ugh....
This piece of really convoluted legalese is what US of A calls "Law" ?
even the rather Byzantine Italian Legislature produce much better texts
(and no, the language barrier can't be invoked here....)
dott.Piergiorgio
> I would think that the Republicans would welcome the US government
> getting out of the space business. Isn't it better if that
> opportunity be left to the private sector, where it can be done
> more efficiently by for-profit companies? Why should space
> colonization be different from that on earth-- which was often
> funded by private companies looking to exploit resources to be
> found somewhere out there! ;-)
You ever noticed the actual names of these 1600's companies ? the key
word there is "adventure", not "enterprise". Current capitalism isn't
capable of accepting the risk ratio mercantile capitalism of yore was
ready to accept....
(and I trust that people here know perfectly well that a Ship was (and
is) always the physical embodiement of the technological leading edge of
the place and time)
Ray O'Hara
==========================================================================
and the Dems will still cave in.
we have two parties, one the misgoverns and one that can't govern.
who is the worse driver, one who can't start the car or the one who can but
then hits a tree.
those seem to be our choices.
Arved Sandstrom
There's a fair few Tea Party core supporters who are unhappy with any
strong lean towards the GOP, since the whole point of the movement was
to shake up both the Dems and the Republicans. I myself think there's a
lot of room for something *like* the Tea Party movement, but official
ties to the GOP are counter-productive: the Republicans are no more
capable of small government and reduced spending than the Democrats are.
Palin is pushing for a merger of the Tea Party movement and the GOP.
This is actually a laudable goal, IMHO, but it goes against the grain of
what a lot of Republicans actually want - they no more want to preside
over a small, frugal, non-interventionist government than the Democrats
do. Palin may soon find herself shunned.
And I think your point is well taken - there's a lot of Republicans who
are indistinguishable from conservative Democrats. Few of them are
necessarily all that keen on the Tea Party movement, so strong GOP ties
with that group could hurt.
AHS
Jack Linthicum
Bit of discussion on one of the talk shows today, I can't distinguish
which, that the time was ripe for a Ross Perot, "without the Southern
accent". And the number 19% was mentioned.
Problem with third party moves in today's world is what hamstrung
Jimmy Carter, he didn't know enough people who could run a government.
If Bill Gates or Warren Buffet or one of those millionaires that are
backing the Tea Baggers were to step forward, it might fly. How far it
could fly is what Perot never asked.
The basic motivation now is getting all the people who are in, out.
The majority don't care how many but each of them carries their own
personal "Constitution" in their head. We see it here, people assuming
what some ding ding said on TV or the radio is straight stuff.
tankfixer
2ee0ed...@y12g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net
says...
They voted against increasing the statutory debt limit...
tankfixer
fjmc...@gmail.com says...
>
> tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :They voted against increasing the statutory debt limit...
> :
>
> So the government shuts down because it's not allowed to raise money,
> or what?
Generally when one is in a hole and the dirt is falling back onto one's
head it just might be time to stop digging...
Mark Test
news:0p1dm5t69vn0uu1vf...@4ax.com...
> tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> :In article <th8cm5los7ic8po70...@4ax.com>,
>
> Evasion noted.
>
> Please explain to me what YOU think happens when the statutory debt
> limit is reached.
>
I'll chime in... Congress raises it.
Mark
Jack Linthicum
> "Fred J. McCall" <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:0p1dm5t69vn0uu1vf...@4ax.com...
>
> > tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > :In article <th8cm5los7ic8po704hib96d1bou00t...@4ax.com>,
> > :fjmcc...@gmail.com says...
> > :>
> > :> tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > :>
> > :> :
> > :> :They voted against increasing the statutory debt limit...
> > :> :
> > :>
> > :> So the government shuts down because it's not allowed to raise money,
> > :> or what?
> > :
> > :Generally when one is in a hole and the dirt is falling back onto one's
> > :head it just might be time to stop digging...
> > :
>
> > Evasion noted.
>
> > Please explain to me what YOU think happens when the statutory debt
> > limit is reached.
>
> I'll chime in... Congress raises it.
>
> Mark
They do just what the private folks do, fiddle with the accounting.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/16/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5987341.shtml
Richard Casady
Loon? I have been watching with dismay for decades as NASA has
gradually thrown it all away. One of the biggest of the false moves
was getting rid of Saturn. We made it to the moon in eleven years from
Sputnik I to Apollo in 1968. In 1990 someone pointed out that the way
we were going. there was no way we would be back by 2010. The shuttle
just hasn't the power to put things up high, or to launch really large
loads. And shuttle has never been reusable. They rebuild everything at
expenses heaver than throwaway rockets. We have lost two of seven
shuttles killing all on board. This is reusable? Only the shuttle
kills in space although astronauts have also died in plane crashes and
a ground fire. The asteroid belt is loaded with trillions or
quadrillions of good sized chunks of nickle iron [that is 3/4 of the
way to stainless steel.] You can't get there with the shuttle
Population cannot increase without limit. We seem to be eating the
planet. At the rate were are going billions are going to starve, and
not that long in the future. We use helium for superconductors. It is
running out. There is a mass of the stuff in Jupiter's atmosphere that
rivals the weight of the earth. Ever hear of medical MRI gear? The
collider? If we want to get the electricity from the windmills and
solar farms to the cities, we need power lines. Superconductors are
the best way to go on that. Drug smuggler detection aerostats?
Stuff is relatively scarce. For a long time most of it came from
Amarillo Texas natural gas. Now there are some other sources. It comes
from radioactive decay of uranium and that is a slow process and does
not make it fast enough.
You think we won't eat the planet. Just for example, the cod are no
longer worth fishing for, they have gotten so scarce. The term is
collapse of a fishery. They are now fishing out Somalia with big
Japanese seagoing factories. Part of the motivation, beyond ordinary
greed, for the pirates. The Indian ocean is the last decent fishery
left and it is going...going... and will soon be gone. Look up tragedy
of the commons.
You cannot effectively pollute space, it is too big. You cannot
deplete it much in less than hundreds of billions of years. If we push
disaster that far into the future it is a step in the right direction.
Do you really want this place to get poorer, dirtier, and more crowded
until human life isn't worth living, and then not even possible? You
should buy an physics text and a decent calculater. I have been useing
the HP 48 for fifteen years, highly recommended. Nearly all unit
conversions. Nearly all physical constants in a library. Solves a
hundred equations in several hundred variables. E=MC^2 for example.
S=1/2 AT^2 stuff like that. The numbers involved are a bit big for a
slide rule or a pencil. On that last, Dixon Ticonderogas have been the
worlds best pencil for decades. Wood has been getting cheaper for
decades. The label just got cheaped out. The actual writing ability is
next. They make #3 and #4 writing pencils, the only ones who do.
How come writing, drawing, and drafting pencils each have their own
number system? Exact same materials.
I have a pre WWII drafting pencil. 10% fatter than anything else I
have ever seen, dating back to the fifties. Took drafting in 58 and
64. The quality was slipping even then. The first thing to go is the
wood, then the paint, then the rubber, then the graphite. It has been
the same brass. No good way to cheap that.
You think things can go down the shitter forever and never get that
bad, You need to revisit grade school math. Less and less shared among
more and more until the place is as crowded as a beehive and everyone
dies is where we are headed. Conservation and recycling can only slow
things very slightly. Another fifty years before we extinct Homo Sap
is not enough. There is more acetylene laying on the ground in a
hundreds of foot thick layer on Saturn's moon Titan than there is oil
on earth that has been used, found or suspected. One billion barrels
is .16 cubic kilometer. You can see a billions, trillions, of times as
many hydrocarbons with the nakid eye most nights. Jupiter. Saturn.
It takes 20 times a much energy, roughly, to escape from the earth as
the moon just for openers. That is where we get the materials to go to
the asteroids where we get the wherewithal to go to the stars. Obama
is spending our future on rich friends toys. Same as bush. Last pres
with vision for space was that crew killer JFK. About the best thing
he did.
We will get space when we get fusion power plants. The time frame for
those has slipped from twenty years to never in my lifetime [born
1947.]
Just to give you an idea how vast space is consider that the nearest
star is less than ten minutes away at the speed of light. It would
take you 5000 years to walk the 100 000 0000 miles at 50 miles a day.
It is 4 years at light speed to the nearest other star.It would take a
billion years to walk as far as the second nearest star, 1/5 the age
of the earth, 1/15 the age of the universe. [figures rounded sightly.
A factor of a million is actually meaningless.] We have war after war
over about a cubic mile of oil. Without the oil, nobody would care
about either the Arabs or the Jews. We don't care about the Jews,
really. Hitler tried to deport the Jews, but nobody in the world would
take them. Only then did the Nazis decide to kill them. Little meeting
at Goerings place, now there was another winner. Hitler wanted Ukraine
for the grain and he went to war for it. [an admitted simplification].
We, meaning the US, could have had the stars. India and China have
space programs and they will own space while the US slides into the
4th world. If we are lucky. I don't feel very optimistic. They have
programs. They used to be decades behind. It is closing all the time.
They havent had the POS shuttle holding them back all these years.
Don't accuse me of cheering when I have been whining for more than
fifty years.
The only answer to depletion of this planet is resources elsewhere.
One disease could extinct the Race. If we were near other stars people
there wouldn't even know about a total loss of the earth for years.
This planet will not last forever if we forever increase both
population and per capita use of resources, and nobody has every
chosen poor over rich for the sake of their great great great grand
children.
Read Pournelles thirty year old stuff on this subject. The outlook is
bleaker now, we are further down the slide without even fixing the
brakes. Don't even talk about reverse.
We use space for mostly for comsats. and snooping. TV and phone for
more people and that is good, but we need resources as well, and more.
Weather satellites are ok, but we need living room more. Military
satellites? Less reason to fight if you had more room and money.
Build solar power satellites with asteroid material and beam power to
antennae built over crops. For just one thing. While we conquer the
universe we can make live better for the stay at homes we can have it
all if we move on it, but chances dwindle as we stall. You would know
more if you had been studying the subject for the last 55 years or so.
This stuff is not secret. I would bet the beer, if not the ranch that
Fred has known a lot about it for a long long time.
Casady
tankfixer
> :In article <th8cm5los7ic8po70...@4ax.com>,
>
> Evasion noted.
Not an evasion, just an observation.
>
> Please explain to me what YOU think happens when the statutory debt
> limit is reached.
The country has to stop spending like the 6th Fleet in Marseilles for a
weekend.
And yes I know that means people might not get paid on time, "I" might
not get paid on time.
But that would not be the first time it has happened during my service.
Richard Casady
<fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>:
>:They voted against increasing the statutory debt limit...
>:
>
>So the government shuts down because it's not allowed to raise money,
>or what?
Fred perhaps something local will enlighten. It is a cliche but the
Des Moines pols actually did it. They threatened to cut the cops and
fire department first.
Casady
tankfixer
richar...@earthlink.net says...
tankfixer
> :In article <0p1dm5t69vn0uu1vf...@4ax.com>,
> :>
> :> tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> :>
> :> :In article <th8cm5los7ic8po70...@4ax.com>,
> :> :fjmc...@gmail.com says...
> :> :>
> :> :> tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> :> :>
> :> :> :
> :> :> :They voted against increasing the statutory debt limit...
> :> :> :
> :> :>
> :> :> So the government shuts down because it's not allowed to raise money,
> :> :> or what?
> :> :
> :> :Generally when one is in a hole and the dirt is falling back onto one's
> :> :head it just might be time to stop digging...
> :> :
> :>
> :> Evasion noted.
> :
> :Not an evasion, just an observation.
>
> Sorry, but no. If it had accompanied AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION it
> would have been an observation. As is, it's an evasion.
>
> :
> :>
> :> Please explain to me what YOU think happens when the statutory debt
> :> limit is reached.
> :>
> :
> :The country has to stop spending like the 6th Fleet in Marseilles for a
> :weekend.
>
> What happens when the statutory debt limit is reached? Answer the
> bloody question, Paul.
take a breath...
>
> :
> :And yes I know that means people might not get paid on time, "I" might
> :not get paid on time.
> :But that would not be the first time it has happened during my service.
> :
>
> It means a hell of a lot more than that.
Then be the bigger man and enlighten me..
Dan
It will take a heap more knowledge and technology than we have now to
get to a habitable extraterrestrial location, and sending rockets into
space does nothing useful to reach that level of understanding.
I used to be a big NASA supporter, and they do good work, but the
realities of the hostile space environment is way beyond what we were
led to believe by SciFi...
Dan
Dan
You'd prefer standing there and letting the dirt bury you???
No wonder Republicans have such a bad reputation...
Dan
Richard Casady
<fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Richard Casady <richar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>:On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 17:37:45 -0700, Fred J. McCall
>:
>
>I'm not looking for 'enlightenment'. I *KNOW* what will happen. I'm
>asking Paul what HE thinks will happen.
>
>He's avoiding answering the question.
I suppose. My comment was also intended for a wider audience than
you.It was another stupid pol post in a stupid pol thread and I just
stuck it in where convenient, so don't take it too personal. And I am
also waiting for his answer. I do not think the entire US gov is going
to shut down, but I don't claim to *KNOW* exactly what will happen.
They will not raise money by cutting the paychecks of the Senate and
House, I will bet on that. After he comments or chickens out, by all
means tell us what you *KNOW* and no sarcasm intended.
Casady
Alex Potter
> The only answer to depletion of this planet is resources elsewhere. One
> disease could extinct the Race. If we were near other stars people there
> wouldn't even know about a total loss of the earth for years. This
> planet will not last forever if we forever increase both population and
> per capita use of resources, and nobody has every chosen poor over rich
> for the sake of their great great great grand children.
>
> Read Pournelles thirty year old stuff on this subject. The outlook is
> bleaker now, we are further down the slide without even fixing the
> brakes. Don't even talk about reverse.
>
> We use space for mostly for comsats. and snooping. TV and phone for more
> people and that is good, but we need resources as well, and more.
> Weather satellites are ok, but we need living room more. Military
> satellites? Less reason to fight if you had more room and money. Build
> solar power satellites with asteroid material and beam power to antennae
> built over crops. For just one thing. While we conquer the universe we
> can make live better for the stay at homes we can have it all if we move
> on it, but chances dwindle as we stall. You would know more if you had
> been studying the subject for the last 55 years or so. This stuff is not
> secret. I would bet the beer, if not the ranch that Fred has known a lot
> about it for a long long time.
>
A spot-on analysis, in my view, Mr. Casady. Thanks for saying that stuff
so much better than I could.
What I'd add is that the quest is too large for one nation. We need to
tackle the problem as Earthlings.
I have but a few month's head start in life on you. Seems like most of
our generation went the selfish route, despite all the peace and love? Me
rather than We?
Perhaps the younger ones never had the imagination and the older ones
mostly died in the Wars?
--
Regards
Alex
Eugene Griessel
Of course the whole concept may be beyond the resources of earth. We
have been spacefaring for more than 50 years and sending humans out
there for almost that long. What has been achieved? Stunningly
little, given the timescale, indicative of the possibility of exiting
the solar system in any meaningful way. Our rockets are merely scaled
up and refined versions of what Goddard and von Braun were using at
the beginning - no quantum leap in technology worth talking about. No
planet, or moon, in the local solar system looking like it could be
worth doing anything with on an economical scale. And despite all the
romance physics stays obstinately against us. It takes a lot of
resources to get a human up there - and the ticket is expensive! What
makes us think we can make other worlds habitable if we do not seem
capable of managing the one we have?
Eugene L Griessel
Aquadextrous: Possessing the ability to turn the bath tap
on and off with your toes.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 17:37:45 -0700, Fred J. McCall
>
> >tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >:
> >:They voted against increasing the statutory debt limit...
> >:
>
> >So the government shuts down because it's not allowed to raise money,
> >or what?
>
> Fred perhaps something local will enlighten. It is a cliche but the
> Des Moines pols actually did it. They threatened to cut the cops and
> fire department first.
>
> Casady
In DC it's the elevator to the top of the Washington Monument.
Alex Potter
> Of course the whole concept may be beyond the resources of earth. We
> have been spacefaring for more than 50 years and sending humans out
> there for almost that long. What has been achieved? Stunningly little,
> given the timescale, indicative of the possibility of exiting the solar
> system in any meaningful way.
I think we've lost the race. I was going to say more, but thought better
of it.
--
Regards
Alex
Jack Linthicum
Maybe we are like those tiny brained Hobbits who 850,000 years ago
found a way to cross fairly narrow bodies of water (15 miles) to end
up on Flores. Marvelous attempt, interesting achievements, but not
very useful in the long run.
Alex Potter
> Marvelous attempt, interesting achievements, but not very useful in the
> long run.
Indeed. I'm sure that that's what the (alien?) archaeologists will say
when they uncover the ruins, whilst knowing less about us than we do
about the civilizations lost in the mists of time.
--
Regards
Alex
How the Internet is supposed to work: <http://www.rfc-editor.org/>
Eugene Griessel
<spa...@ap-consulting.co.uk> wrote:
>Jack Linthicum wrote on Tue, 02 Feb 2010 04:29:59 -0800:
>
>> Marvelous attempt, interesting achievements, but not very useful in the
>> long run.
>
>Indeed. I'm sure that that's what the (alien?) archaeologists will say
>when they uncover the ruins, whilst knowing less about us than we do
>about the civilizations lost in the mists of time.
I have a sad little brochure somewhere, published around 1976 by NASA,
of the wonders of the Shuttle fleet - how there would be a launch a
week with the whole fleet being replaced during the 1990s by an even
bigger and heavier bunch of ships - by which time every shuttle then
in production would have flown 600+ missions. I think, in many ways,
the American space dream foundered with the Shuttle idea - at least on
economic grounds.
One hears of continual rumblings at NASA over the years to dust off
the blueprints and put the Saturn back into production. It was
reliable, did the job - and ultimately would have been cheaper than
the shuttle. Hindsight is, of course, perfect!
Eugene L Griessel
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will
be misquoted, then used against you.
Jack Linthicum
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:43:54 GMT, Alex Potter
>
You can see some of the complexity of the Saturn V in this picture.
Those tiny lines on the inside of the engines are tubes, stainless
steel square tubes, finally made and brazed for assembly. The LH2 fuel
is passed through them to cool the thrust chambers.
Alex Potter
> http://gardkarlsen.com/florida/Saturn_V_engine.jpg
Lovely, weren't they. They could have built the Space Station!
Alex Potter
> I have a sad little brochure somewhere, published around 1976 by NASA,
> of the wonders of the Shuttle fleet - how there would be a launch a week
> with the whole fleet being replaced during the 1990s by an even bigger
> and heavier bunch of ships - by which time every shuttle then in
> production would have flown 600+ missions. I think, in many ways, the
> American space dream foundered with the Shuttle idea - at least on
> economic grounds.
Once, when I was a small boy, I was the first-ever borrower from the
Stirchley Public Library of a particular, newly-published book. It was
the beginning of one Englishman's dreams of space. It was this:
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/e/e-c-eliott/kemlo-and-crazy-planet.htm
Jack Linthicum
There have been several science fiction stories about private small
operations salvaging the spent stages of the boosters used and
creating their own space stations. I know people who wince every time
a shuttle is launched as 19,541 cubic feet of space, protected space,
is soon going to be deorbited and burned. The residue fuel and
oxidizer would be of use and the volume of air tight space is also
invaluable.
1/ http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19940004970_1994004970.pdf
Eugene Griessel
<spa...@ap-consulting.co.uk> wrote:
>Jack Linthicum wrote on Tue, 02 Feb 2010 05:23:38 -0800:
>
>> http://gardkarlsen.com/florida/Saturn_V_engine.jpg
>
>Lovely, weren't they. They could have built the Space Station!
Large chunks of it were put into space by similar technology so
undoubtedly it could have done so!
Eugene L Griessel
Dissent is the native activity of the scientist, and it has got him into a
good deal of trouble in the last years. But if that is cut off, what is
left will not be a scientist. And I doubt whether it will be a man.
Jacob Bronowski
tankfixer
> :In article <geafm5120lavuuunc...@4ax.com>,
> :>
> :> tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> :>
> :> :In article <0p1dm5t69vn0uu1vf...@4ax.com>,
> :> :fjmc...@gmail.com says...
> :> :>
> :> :> tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> :> :>
> :> :> :In article <th8cm5los7ic8po70...@4ax.com>,
> :> :> :fjmc...@gmail.com says...
> :> :> :>
> :> :> :> tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> :> :> :>
> :> :> :> :
> :> :> :> :They voted against increasing the statutory debt limit...
> :> :> :> :
> :> :> :>
> :> :> :> So the government shuts down because it's not allowed to raise money,
> :> :> :> or what?
> :> :> :
> :> :> :Generally when one is in a hole and the dirt is falling back onto one's
> :> :> :head it just might be time to stop digging...
> :> :> :
> :> :>
> :> :> Evasion noted.
> :> :
> :> :Not an evasion, just an observation.
> :> :
> :>
> :> Sorry, but no. If it had accompanied AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION it
> :> would have been an observation. As is, it's an evasion.
> :>
> :> :
> :> :>
> :> :> Please explain to me what YOU think happens when the statutory debt
> :> :> limit is reached.
> :> :>
> :> :
> :> :The country has to stop spending like the 6th Fleet in Marseilles for a
> :> :weekend.
> :> :
> :>
> :> What happens when the statutory debt limit is reached? Answer the
> :> bloody question, Paul.
> :
> :take a breath...
> :
>
You know I'm sure someone has told you before but a tad bit of anger
management counseling might not hurt.
>
> :
> :>
> :> :
> :> :And yes I know that means people might not get paid on time, "I" might
> :> :not get paid on time.
> :> :But that would not be the first time it has happened during my service.
> :> :
> :>
> :> It means a hell of a lot more than that.
> :
> :Then be the bigger man and enlighten me..
> :
>
> Is that really all you think it means? You get paid late?
>
> That's insane, Paul. What happens is paychecks STOP. They're not
> 'late', unless 'never' is considered 'late' in your world.
Do you think a solution would not be worked out ?
tankfixer
says...
Nope, that's why I say stop digging.
>
> No wonder Republicans have such a bad reputation...
So you just keep digging..
Never giving a thought to perhaps shoring up the whole or even
rethinking the validity of the project ?
Hope is not a plan.