first clear evidence of past flowing water on Mars

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/

Imagine that! Earth is not unique wrt water.
;-)

[Mark Test]

"Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." wrote in message
news:1sOdnTwtQIZ-vPjN...@supernews.com...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/

Imagine that! Earth is not unique wrt water.
;-)

-----------------------------------------

Actually H2O is common in the solar system.
http://io9.com/5827649/a-map-of-all-the-water-in-the-solar-system

Mark

[tom c]

"Mark Test" <rightwin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:I7t9s.1397$5f6....@newsfe11.iad...

http://dhmo.org/

[jonathan]

"Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote in message
news:1sOdnTwtQIZ-vPjN...@supernews.com...
>

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/
>
> Imagine that! Earth is not unique wrt water.
> ;-)

You're kidding right? The Rovers have been
discovering all kinds of evidence of water on
Mars for over 8 years now, where have you
been?

Where should I begin....


Water melts out and flows on the surface of Mars....TODAY.
This image video (a couple of clicks down) shows water flowing now.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/04/flowing-water-mars_n_918860.html

Mars has a /currently existing/ frozen ocean the size of the North Sea.
Some 900 km by 800 km in size, and some 45 meters deep.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/1741.pdf

Only a sheet of ice or a body of water can create this
razor flat horizon at Meridiani.
http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/405/tn/1P164131978EFF5000P2663L5M1_L4L5L5L5L6.jpg.html

And almost the entire dried up sea floor called Meridiani is
covered with sheets of these things....
http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/709/2M189317905EFFAL00P2956M2M1.JPG

How long ago was water flowing on Mars, compare the pics below
and judge for yourself.

Look at the ...shadows of each of these pics, and compare the fine and
delicate erosion pattern seen in each shadow. How long could that
delicate erosion pattern last?

Yellowstone mudpot, notice the distinctive water erosion pattern cast in
the...shadow
http://www.nps.gov/features/yell/slidefile/thermalfeatures/mudpots/midwaylower/Images/05402.jpg

Meridiani crater wall, on a 10 degree slope however. Look at the erosion
pattern cast in the...shadow
http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/169/1P143185259EFF3221P2397R1M1.HTML


The current thinking is that the entire northern half of Mars
was a salty sea. And most of the water is still there, they're
finding out it mostly went underground, not into space.

Mars Ocean Map
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/06/100614-ancient-mars-oceans-deltas-science/


s

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

Tongue in cheek...should I have used <TIC>...</TIC>?
;-)

[Bill]

Liar

[︰ones]

If you have hydrogen and oxygen, then you have water. People who
spend their lives studying such things have *long* held that water may
have played some part in the formation of the Martian topography;
reasonably clear evidence of past hydraulic action on Mars has existed
for decades. Current on-site observations tend to augment existing
evidence; however, we have yet to rule out the null hypothesis.

You think like a carry-out pizza, sir.

Jones

[︰ones]

On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:35:28 -0500, in alt.war.vietnam "Mark Test"
<rightwin...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Actually H2O is common in the solar system.

Sure... it's all over the place as far as we can tell. Why wouldn't
it be?

But, actually, I think, in this case, they mean "water" as in what
comes out of your faucet, not the stuff encasing the cole slaw that
time forgot in my freezer.

So, why shouldn't there be water (or ice) on Mars? By our
understanding, it should certainly be present... where is it? Where
did it go? The evidence that some liquid has flowed on Mars in the
geologic past is approaching acceptance as proven fact... when we find
a puddle of ice, I'll get excited.

Hey, I've got an idea! The space aliens drank it all! Yup, that's
gotta be it.

QED

Jones

[�Jones]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 16:53:17 -0400, in alt.war.vietnam "jonathan"
<wr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Where should I begin....

Do you really think you should?

Hey, I'm not knockin' your points... but you might as well make 'em to
a stump.

Jones

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

Liar. yet again.
;-)

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

ĄJones wrote:
>
> People who
> spend their lives studying such things have *long* held that water may
> have played some part in the formation of the Martian topography;

Son, do you know what "may" means?...versus "first clear evidence"?

you're the class clown
;-)

[︰ones]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:44:49 -0700, in alt.war.vietnam "Dr. Vincent
Quin, Ph.D." <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:

>Son, do you know what "may" means?...versus "first clear evidence"?

Of course: it's what keeps April from slamming into June.

The issue, you utter nitwit, is not any lack of clear evidence that
some substance flowing in a liquid state formed Martian topography...
we have had clear evidence of that since early last century.

The enigmatic question is this: why don't we find any evidence of
water existing in any state today? Why don't we find ice crystals?
Why is the atmosphere utterly devoid of water vapor? Where did it go?
Water has less mass than the rock and iron substrata, so we would
expect to find it on or near the surface. Mars has enough gravity to
trap water vapor, so it couldn't boil off into space... where is it?

I agree with your "clear evidence" statement; however, it's a *long*
damn way from being the first. Right now, we have "clear evidence" of
liquid with water being the probable substance creating the effect
which we now observe.

Trust me, son... the Space Aliens drank it!

Jones

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

ĄJones wrote:
> [clown trolling snipped]

hmmm...I like it better when this clown has me killfiled...

Son, you are, no shit, beneath me. Sorry.
;-)

[Moramarth]

On 30 Sep, 21:37, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
> Son, you are, no shit, beneath me.  Sorry.
>

Wrong as usual - even snake shit towers above you...

[︰ones]

I.e.: you have nothing to contribute...

... as usual.

[︰ones]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 13:56:43 -0700 (PDT), in alt.war.vietnam Moramarth
<Mora...@moramarth.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Wrong as usual - even snake shit towers above you...

Just kind of a big waste of time.

[︰ones]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 13:38:41 -0700, in alt.war.vietnam "Dr. Vincent
Quin, Ph.D." <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:

>I like it better when this clown has me killfiled

Killfiles are to Usenet as condoms are to your sex life.

I'm not knockin' 'em, mind you. Hey! When you meet some stranger in
a bar and go home with him for sex, I think that using a condom is
prudent. I, on the other hand, wouldn't even know how to get one
on... I shit you naught, I have never used one in my life!

Samey-same "kill files". I have never used one in my life. You'd
have to tell me how to open the right control to get there... not that
I'd care.

You see, I'm a real professor with a real doctorate... tomorrow
morning, I'm going to take the podium in front of a real classroom
full of real students... they're the best we have coming out of our
liberal high schools, which isn't saying much because each person has
a *right* to succeed. And they'll see if they can push me back upon
"academic freedom" as my argument (i.e.: "I'm right because I'm the
professor!") They can't, of course.

Come on, Vinney... you've posted the URL before. Go ahead... you have
my institutional URL... drop it on us again.

I don't need a killfile for you, Vinney. I can handle anything you
can spew.

Jones

[red...@lava.net]

You sound like you have 'issues'...- redvet

[Mark Test]

"tom c" wrote in message news:k479bp$jgp$1...@dont-email.me...

---------------------------------------------------
lmao!!!!!! A website? Too funny.

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

red...@lava.net wrote:

Wow, issues indeed...and I see he posted 2 replies to another of my
posts (I didn't read them either) rejecting him. I hope he doesn't cry.
;-)

[DGVREIMAN]

"ĄJones" <jdf...@x.com> wrote in message
news:0feh685ht4pkfb21q...@4ax.com...

> I.e.: you have nothing to contribute...
>
> ... as usual.

I believe a large amount of the water on Mars is underground. I have
heard some scientists speculate there is an large underground sea on
Mars that probably contains life. If there was once water on the
surface you can bet there are at least underground rivers. If that is
true you can also bet some type of life lives in that water. Just my
opinion of course.

Doug Grant (Tm)


>

[�Jones]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 23:28:55 -0700, in alt.war.vietnam "DGVREIMAN"
<dgvr...@comcast.net> wrote:

>I believe a large amount of the water on Mars is underground. I have
>heard some scientists speculate there is an large underground sea on
>Mars that probably contains life. If there was once water on the
>surface you can bet there are at least underground rivers. If that is
>true you can also bet some type of life lives in that water. Just my
>opinion of course.

Well, it pretty much has to be *someplace*. It's not in the
atmosphere and it's not on the surface... so, by the process of
elimination...

Jones

[︰ones]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:04:20 -1000, in alt.war.vietnam red...@lava.net
wrote:

>You sound like you have 'issues'...- redvet

Not particularly.

None over which I'd demonstrate publicly, anyway.

Jones

[Jim Wilkins]

"�Jones" <jdf...@x.com> wrote in message
news:m19o685aggn2o189c...@4ax.com...

Then where is all the Nitrogen???

N2 makes up 78% of Earth's atmosphere (Venus has about the same mass
of N2) and N2 doesn't condense at observed Martian low temperatures or
readily react with much else. If Mars started out the same as Earth it
should still have a lot left in its atmosphere.

jsw

[Keith W]

A very good question and one that planetologists have been asking
for some time. One theory seems to be that in Martian conditions
it reacted with water to form nitric acid which may well make using
any water deposits on Mars into an interesting problem.

http://yly-mac.gps.caltech.edu/Reprintsyly/A_RecentPapers/Boxe%20et%20al%202012.pdf

Keith

[Jim Wilkins]

"Keith W" <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ZmZas.301242$4z5.1...@fx08.am4...

> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "�Jones" <jdf...@x.com> wrote in message
>> news:m19o685aggn2o189c...@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 23:28:55 -0700, in alt.war.vietnam "DGVREIMAN"
>>> <dgvr...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe a large amount of the water on Mars is underground. I
>>>> have
>>>> heard some scientists speculate there is an large underground sea
>>>> on
>>>> Mars that probably contains life. If there was once water on
>>>> the
>>>> surface you can bet there are at least underground rivers. If
>>>> that
>>>> is
>>>> true you can also bet some type of life lives in that water.
>>>> Just
>>>> my
>>>> opinion of course.
>>>
>>> Well, it pretty much has to be *someplace*. It's not in the
>>> atmosphere and it's not on the surface... so, by the process of
>>> elimination...
>>>
>>> Jones
>>
>> Then where is all the Nitrogen???

>> jsw
>
> A very good question and one that planetologists have been asking
> for some time. One theory seems to be that in Martian conditions
> it reacted with water to form nitric acid which may well make using
> any water deposits on Mars into an interesting problem.
> http://yly-mac.gps.caltech.edu/Reprintsyly/A_RecentPapers/Boxe%20et%20al%202012.pdf
> Keith

What's missing from that analysis is the relative attraction of
nitrogen and carbon for oxygen. Mix nitrates with carbon and you have
gunpowder.

On the early Earth the biologically generated free oxygen that might
have been available to form nitrates first combined with iron:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banded_iron_formation

It takes an excess of oxygen to sequester nitrogen as nitrates, even
as ammonium nitrate NH4NO3. Cyanogen N=C-C=N and ferrocyanides could
hold nitrogen in solid form without oxygen but assuming them requires
a credible means of synthesis.

jsw

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

Such as?

[Keith W]

Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Keith W" <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ZmZas.301242$4z5.1...@fx08.am4...
>> Jim Wilkins wrote:

>>> "ĄJones" <jdf...@x.com> wrote in message

There is hardly an absence of nitrates on earth and the formation
of such nitrates under desert conditions is well documented.

Then there is the little matter of the fact that there is twice as much
iron oxide on the surface of mars than there is in the earths crust.
This is of course why they call it the red planet.

> It takes an excess of oxygen to sequester nitrogen as nitrates, even
> as ammonium nitrate NH4NO3. Cyanogen N=C-C=N and ferrocyanides could
> hold nitrogen in solid form without oxygen but assuming them requires
> a credible means of synthesis.
>
> jsw

As outlined in the paper that I posted the link for.

Keith

[jonathan]

"ĄJones" <jdf...@x.com> wrote in message

news:m19o685aggn2o189c...@4ax.com...

They've found that in large areas of Mars the soil is up to 60% water ice
just a couple of meters below the surface. Also, the temperatures rise
as you go deeper, and so does protection from solar radiation.
So in many places, there should be a habitable zone of wet soil
a few meters or so below the surface. Combined with the high
salt content of the soil, that should make for good conditions
for microbial life.

Since the Opportunity rover landed on Mars, the field of
astrobiology has gone from a handful of geeky graduate
students and SETI types, to exciting annual conferences
like this...

NASA Astrobiology Conference 2012 Abstracts
http://abscicon2012.arc.nasa.gov/abstracts/





> Jones

[Jim Wilkins]

"Keith W" <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:A62bs.364438$1R2.1...@fx07.am4...
> ...> There is hardly an absence of nitrates on earth and the

> formation
> of such nitrates under desert conditions is well documented.
>
> Then there is the little matter of the fact that there is twice as
> much
> iron oxide on the surface of mars than there is in the earths crust.
> This is of course why they call it the red planet.
>
>> It takes an excess of oxygen to sequester nitrogen as nitrates,
>> even
>> as ammonium nitrate NH4NO3. Cyanogen N=C-C=N and ferrocyanides
>> could
>> hold nitrogen in solid form without oxygen but assuming them
>> requires
>> a credible means of synthesis.
>>
>> jsw
>
> As outlined in the paper that I posted the link for.
>
> Keith

The only nitrogen-fixing mechanisms the article mentions are
ultraviolet photolysis into nitrogen oxides and anaerobic fixation by
Clostridium. The article explores how the measured concentration of
atmospheric nitrogen as N2 and HNO3 relates to the potential upper and
lower limits of subsurface biomass. It tacitly assumes Earth
biochemistry in which nitrogen is a critical, limiting element in
proteins, enzymes and DNA.

I haven't found references to metallic ores on Earth that contain
cyanides, although some would be very stable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_blue

There really aren't many places for the missing nitrogen to hide. If
it was lost to space then water vapor at a little more than half the
molecular weight (18 vs 28) would have left even faster.
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast31jan_1/

jsw

[�Jones]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 08:47:47 -0400, in alt.war.vietnam "Jim Wilkins"
<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Then where is all the Nitrogen???

Hey, I was at home watching TV when it disappeared! I had nothing to
do with it!

Jones

[DGVREIMAN]

"ĄJones" <jdf...@x.com> wrote in message
news:h6m378hbl939ik8qc...@4ax.com...

Doug Says: Sure, right! Where did you hide all that Nitrogen Herr
Jones? I bet you have stockpiles of it and you are planning to use it
on unruly students. Come to think of it, that might be a good
solution to our education problems???

Doug Grant (Tm)