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President Obama taking a commanding lead in the Polls!
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jonathan
Sep 26, 2012, 8:15:55 PM9/26/12
to
Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Sep 26, 2012, 8:24:23 PM9/26/12
to
you have the naivety of a 10th grader just discovering politics
;-)
jonathan
Sep 26, 2012, 8:45:18 PM9/26/12
to
"Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote in message
news:i9adnV2EWrbPAf7N...@supernews.com...
Right after the election he'll do the same thing Mondale, Dukakis and
Dole did, vanish off the face of the earth out of ...humiliation.
Remember, even Mondale got within 5% of Reagan just before the
election, and that translated into a landslide. The earth under Mitt's
shoes are starting to crumble.
s
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Sep 26, 2012, 9:00:53 PM9/26/12
to
imminent invasion of Iran?
> s
What is the s? Looks like s[pam]...whatever it is, nobody cares...shitcan it.
;-)
jonathan
Sep 26, 2012, 9:08:45 PM9/26/12
to
news:26OdnejGQdR8Of7N...@supernews.com...
Half our navy is prowling their shores as we speak. Taking down
the Iranian regime is the primary US foriegn policy goal and
military focus at this time, and probably for the next couple
of years.
You were saying?
>
>> s
>
> What is the s? Looks like s[pam]...whatever it is, nobody cares...shitcan
> it.
> ;-)
I can't!
s
the Iranian regime is the primary US foriegn policy goal and
military focus at this time, and probably for the next couple
of years.
You were saying?
>
>> s
>
> What is the s? Looks like s[pam]...whatever it is, nobody cares...shitcan
> it.
> ;-)
s
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Sep 26, 2012, 9:17:17 PM9/26/12
to
;-)
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Bill
Sep 27, 2012, 3:00:04 PM9/27/12
to
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:17:17 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
<dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
> Half our navy is prowling their shores as we speak.
Well at least you're on topic, although wrong and badly informed...
<dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
> Half our navy is prowling their shores as we speak.
No change there then...
Dean Markley
Sep 27, 2012, 3:26:35 PM9/27/12
to
Vaughn
Sep 27, 2012, 5:32:21 PM9/27/12
to
On 9/26/2012 8:15 PM, jonathan wrote:
> Mr 47% is finding out the hard way th...
How about them Mets?
> Mr 47% is finding out the hard way th...
How about them Mets?
jonathan
Sep 27, 2012, 9:46:02 PM9/27/12
to
"Dean Markley" <dama...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d0e64aa-33dd-4838...@googlegroups.com...
When I say 'half', or wildly exaggerate, it's the same as saying
'a whole bunch' of ships ....sheez! I mean this guy is flaming me
for predicting some time ago that Iran would be next, after Iraq.
All the while the daily papers are reading things like this on a
regular basis.....
US Sends Ships, Fighter Jets to Brace for Iran Threat
By Jim Meyers
"The United States has quietly moved significant new military
forces into the Persian Gulf to discourage an Iranian response
to new sanctions imposed on the Islamic Republic.
The American moves are designed to deter Iran from any
attempt to shut the Strait of Hormuz and to increase the
United States' ability to strike into Iran if necessary, The
New York Times reports in a front-page story on Tuesday.
The increased American forces include minesweepers and
stealth jets. And a Pentagon official warned that if Iran's navy
harasses American vessels, "We'll put them on the bottom of the gulf."
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/us-builds-up-forces/2012/07/03/id/444313
Sounds like Iran is...next to me, it should to anyone with
any sense.
s
Bill
Sep 28, 2012, 5:54:09 AM9/28/12
to
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:46:02 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
>Sounds like Iran is...next to me, it should to anyone with
>any sense.
Iran is trying quite hard to make Iran next...
wrote:
>
>>> > Half our navy is prowling their shores as we speak.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well at least you're on topic, although wrong and badly informed...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No change there then...
>>
>> Bill, I've told Jonathan a million times not to exaggerate!
>
>
>Is figurative statements a mystery to anyone?
>
>When I say 'half', or wildly exaggerate, it's the same as saying
>'a whole bunch' of ships ....sheez!
Read the group name again...
>
>>> > Half our navy is prowling their shores as we speak.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well at least you're on topic, although wrong and badly informed...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No change there then...
>>
>> Bill, I've told Jonathan a million times not to exaggerate!
>
>
>Is figurative statements a mystery to anyone?
>
>When I say 'half', or wildly exaggerate, it's the same as saying
>'a whole bunch' of ships ....sheez!
>Sounds like Iran is...next to me, it should to anyone with
>any sense.
Dean Markley
Sep 28, 2012, 10:09:17 AM9/28/12
to
Bill
Sep 28, 2012, 3:11:32 PM9/28/12
to
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 07:09:17 -0700 (PDT), Dean Markley
<dama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Sounds like Iran is...next to me, it should to anyone with
>>
>> >any sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> Iran is trying quite hard to make Iran next...
>
>Yes Iran does seem to be going out of their way to get pounded. This is slightly reminiscent of Iraq. After all, Saddam Hussein could have avoided that war by let UN inspectors in and showing he had no nuclear weapons program. But no, he had to try to bluff his way, didn't he? Now, this idiot from Iran comes into the UN and declares he will burn Israel off the map. That old saying about "history repeating itself" seems true.
It seems to be a feature of the tyrannical mind-set.
<dama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Sounds like Iran is...next to me, it should to anyone with
>>
>> >any sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> Iran is trying quite hard to make Iran next...
>
>Yes Iran does seem to be going out of their way to get pounded. This is slightly reminiscent of Iraq. After all, Saddam Hussein could have avoided that war by let UN inspectors in and showing he had no nuclear weapons program. But no, he had to try to bluff his way, didn't he? Now, this idiot from Iran comes into the UN and declares he will burn Israel off the map. That old saying about "history repeating itself" seems true.
Mind you, they daren't seem weak because if they do their own
downtrodden masses will probably slit their throats as soon as they
realise that the 'big man' has feet of clay.
Even if their downtrodden masses are utterly downtrodden there's
always an ambitious colonel somewhere who really really needs to be '
'Father of his country and Generalissimo for life', never quite
realising that 'life' in this case may not include the long drawn-out
bit in bed at the end
Andrew Swallow
Sep 28, 2012, 4:58:52 PM9/28/12
to
to the USA or Britain?
Andrew Swallow
dott.Piergiorgio
Sep 28, 2012, 5:03:28 PM9/28/12
to
Il 28/09/2012 22:58, Andrew Swallow ha scritto:
> Before we invade Iran, is there any country that is an immediate danger
> to the USA or Britain?
aside the "usual suspect" NK, there's Argentina and Venezuela, and one
> Before we invade Iran, is there any country that is an immediate danger
> to the USA or Britain?
must not undertimate the impact of the inevitable shifting of Naval
assets from Somalia to Hormuz and beyond....
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Keith W
Sep 28, 2012, 5:19:39 PM9/28/12
to
Its a big country, the size France, Germany , Britain and
Spain combined with a population of over 70 million
and the opponents of the current regime would fight
just as hard against any invader as the most fanatical supporter
.
They have a land border through which they can get supplies
and the capability to produce their own weapons from
rifles through to IRBM's
Keith
Bill
Sep 28, 2012, 8:41:37 PM9/28/12
to
Bill
Sep 28, 2012, 8:43:28 PM9/28/12
to
Just destroy the current government and their nuclear infrastructure
and withdraw leaving then inevitable upheaval to produce a more
amenable government..
Keith W
Sep 29, 2012, 6:19:58 AM9/29/12
to
that physical invasion would be a catastrophic mistake.
The danger of simply destroying the existing government
is that there is no real credible alternative right now,
Keith
dott.Piergiorgio
Sep 29, 2012, 8:57:41 AM9/29/12
to
Il 29/09/2012 12:19, Keith W ha scritto:
> I am not saying that no military action is possible, just
> that physical invasion would be a catastrophic mistake.
> The danger of simply destroying the existing government
> is that there is no real credible alternative right now.
> I am not saying that no military action is possible, just
> that physical invasion would be a catastrophic mistake.
> The danger of simply destroying the existing government
The last successful theocracy-removal war was in 1870, and much leverage
in the limited bloodshed was in the very nature of Abramitic clergy &
prelates together with a show of technological superiority (the breach
of Porta Pia done with rifled artillery & shells) so IS feasible a
quick, limited-bloodshed, successful war. the key is in targeting: we
need an highly symbolical purely military target, whose destruction will
lead to a quick reunion of Grand Marjas whose take the decision of put
down arms.
and, don't forget that there's around the best-ever post-war
Instituitional figure with the prestige and leverage for an orderly
transition: the Shah.
Bill
Sep 29, 2012, 9:46:26 AM9/29/12
to
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:19:58 +0100, "Keith W"
I can live with Iran being another Somalia for a decade or two.
But I doubt that'll happen.
Too many rich exiles are interested in going home.
But I doubt that'll happen.
Too many rich exiles are interested in going home.
tutall
Sep 29, 2012, 10:00:34 AM9/29/12
to
On Sep 28, 5:43 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They don't need invading.
>
> Just destroy the current government and their nuclear infrastructure
> and withdraw leaving then inevitable upheaval to produce a more
> amenable government-
> They don't need invading.
>
> Just destroy the current government and their nuclear infrastructure
> and withdraw leaving then inevitable upheaval to produce a more
So, destroy large pieces of their infrastructure, leave them headless,
causing upheavals and long term human misery to the citizens of the
country and then except good things to come out of it?
Pull the other one why don't you?
Bill
Sep 29, 2012, 10:36:53 AM9/29/12
to
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:00:34 -0700 (PDT), tutall <tut...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
I expect nothing from them at all.
I just wish they'd go away.
As for the 'sum of human misery', them having an atom bomb would add
to that in a way I don't even wish to imagine...
Those Iranians I do know all hate the current government and have fled
the place in search of a life elsewhere.
All love their country.
All would be delighted to be able to go back without the threat of
instant death hanging over their heads for something their father did
or for getting the wrong education or even, in one case, for his
uncle having the wrong friend.
wrote:
I just wish they'd go away.
As for the 'sum of human misery', them having an atom bomb would add
to that in a way I don't even wish to imagine...
Those Iranians I do know all hate the current government and have fled
the place in search of a life elsewhere.
All love their country.
All would be delighted to be able to go back without the threat of
instant death hanging over their heads for something their father did
or for getting the wrong education or even, in one case, for his
uncle having the wrong friend.
jonathan
Sep 29, 2012, 2:01:46 PM9/29/12
to
"dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me> wrote in message
news:9fC9s.212258$GZ3....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
People in Iran or Iraq and most places around
the world can now tell the difference between
just another dictator, and a more modern form
of democracy and freedom.
The future of religion and democracy for that region
can best be seen by the highest ranking Shia leader
Grand Ayatollah Sistani.
http://www.sistani.org/
Sistani believes in democracy, and his followers
form the majority in the ..entire region. No matter
who succeeds him, even if an Iranian, the source
of Shia beliefs and morality will remain in Najaf.
And their belief system and attitudes towards democracy
isn't a threat to the west, quite the contrary.
It's in our interest the people of the region are freed
to express their demands. If a dictatorship collapses
we should have faith the people of that nation will
find a way to build a democracy, one way or another.
No matter how many setbacks such change may have
democracy and freedom are the most probable final
states of any sufficiently complex system. The math is
clear on this point.
The enemy of that shining future is the opposite of complexity
....dictatorships. Dictatorships of any kind, religious, military
or even a corrupt capitalist system.We should worry only
about how to take those dictators down, then worry
about the aftermath once it's happened, since in the
Internet Age ...nature is now on our side. So we should
simply have faith in doing the right thing.
Now that the interests of the west and the people
of the region are aligned...we can't lose.
Jonathan
s
s
jonathan
Sep 29, 2012, 2:21:54 PM9/29/12
to
"tutall" <tut...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:88cc1116-120a-4230...@r7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
The only way for democracy to succeed is if the people involved
make it happen. We can't do it for them, we can only give them
the opportunity and resources.
In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
or their opinions. So I think the west should wait until the people
involved have made their opinions clear in some way, by rebelling
and such as in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Then the world should
step forward and help make it happen.
All these Arab uprisings have been creating a template I believe
for the future. Hopefully the world will build a consensus on when
and how to pool their resources to help the hot-spot of the day.
If the people around the world start to believe that if they
rise up against their dictator, the free world will then come
to the rescue, then democracy could start spreading like
wildfire.
Jonathan
s
Thomas Womack
Sep 29, 2012, 2:54:53 PM9/29/12
to
In article <YdidndPg58KpofrN...@giganews.com>,
this very thread; there is at the very least a substantial vocal
subgroup of Iranians who explain what they want clearly and
repeatedly
b) Iran's elections are at an interesting position between
free-and-fair and laughable; if you want to know what Iranians
want, the results of the 2009 election and subsequent protests
are instructive.
But after the debacle of 1953 and the other debacle of 1979, there is
absolutely no hope that any group perceivable as being the minions of
the US can intervene sanely to back an anti-government side in Iran
without simply getting the anti-government side's members imprisoned
and beaten. Nor for ethnic reasons can a predominantly-Arab group,
which any large-enough regional consortium would be, get involved.
I think we just have to leave it; if an Iranian rebel group asks for
UN peacekeepers the UN can probably scare up a group from East Asia,
South America and Bangladesh, and with a really competent US secretary
of state then US technical assistance could be provided sufficiently
subtly and deniably.
Tom
jonathan <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>or their opinions.
a) You pointed out the existence of the internet not very far away in
>In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>or their opinions.
this very thread; there is at the very least a substantial vocal
subgroup of Iranians who explain what they want clearly and
repeatedly
b) Iran's elections are at an interesting position between
free-and-fair and laughable; if you want to know what Iranians
want, the results of the 2009 election and subsequent protests
are instructive.
But after the debacle of 1953 and the other debacle of 1979, there is
absolutely no hope that any group perceivable as being the minions of
the US can intervene sanely to back an anti-government side in Iran
without simply getting the anti-government side's members imprisoned
and beaten. Nor for ethnic reasons can a predominantly-Arab group,
which any large-enough regional consortium would be, get involved.
I think we just have to leave it; if an Iranian rebel group asks for
UN peacekeepers the UN can probably scare up a group from East Asia,
South America and Bangladesh, and with a really competent US secretary
of state then US technical assistance could be provided sufficiently
subtly and deniably.
Tom
Thomas Womack
Sep 29, 2012, 2:59:23 PM9/29/12
to
In article <hrud68dkkv815mhpa...@4ax.com>,
I don't think the world can; I think you're under-estimating how much
of a shithole Somalia is.
>But I doubt that'll happen.
>
>Too many rich exiles are interested in going home.
Lots of rich Iraqi exiles wanted to go home, and that didn't help a
lot. A reasonable number of members of the Somali diaspora have got
reasonably rich and that's not demonstrably helping; the only progress
in Somalia proper (rather than Somaliland, which is not very much more
screwed than Kurdistan) is at the tips of Ethiopian bayonets, and I do
wonder whether Ethiopia is in part attacking militant-controlled
Somalia with the aim of getting itself a port - that's been a critical
geopolitical goal for them since the secession of Eritrea.
Tom
I don't think the world can; I think you're under-estimating how much
of a shithole Somalia is.
>But I doubt that'll happen.
>
>Too many rich exiles are interested in going home.
lot. A reasonable number of members of the Somali diaspora have got
reasonably rich and that's not demonstrably helping; the only progress
in Somalia proper (rather than Somaliland, which is not very much more
screwed than Kurdistan) is at the tips of Ethiopian bayonets, and I do
wonder whether Ethiopia is in part attacking militant-controlled
Somalia with the aim of getting itself a port - that's been a critical
geopolitical goal for them since the secession of Eritrea.
Tom
tutall
Sep 29, 2012, 3:24:54 PM9/29/12
to
On Sep 29, 7:36 am, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:00:34 -0700 (PDT), tutall <tut...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sep 28, 5:43 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> They don't need invading.
>
> >> Just destroy the current government and their nuclear infrastructure
> >> and withdraw leaving then inevitable upheaval to produce a more
> >> amenable government-
>
> >So, destroy large pieces of their infrastructure, leave them headless,
> >causing upheavals and long term human misery to the citizens of the
> >country and then except good things to come out of it?
>
> >Pull the other one why don't you?
>
> I expect nothing from them at all.
>
> I just wish they'd go away.
If, by "them" you mean the extemist leadership, I'd agree. I work
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:00:34 -0700 (PDT), tutall <tut...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sep 28, 5:43 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> They don't need invading.
>
> >> Just destroy the current government and their nuclear infrastructure
> >> and withdraw leaving then inevitable upheaval to produce a more
> >> amenable government-
>
> >So, destroy large pieces of their infrastructure, leave them headless,
> >causing upheavals and long term human misery to the citizens of the
> >country and then except good things to come out of it?
>
> >Pull the other one why don't you?
>
> I expect nothing from them at all.
>
> I just wish they'd go away.
with, and you probably have as well, n/m I see you brought this up
yourself.
> As for the 'sum of human misery', them having an atom bomb would add
> to that in a way I don't even wish to imagine...
as well?
We're discussing attacking a sovereign state because of overactive
imaginations?
Seriously? Go to war because peoples fears have been stoked high
enough to sear a steak?
> Those Iranians I do know all hate the current government and have fled
> the place in search of a life elsewhere.
>
> All love their country.
>
> All would be delighted to be able to go back without the threat of
> instant death hanging over their heads for something their father did
> or for getting the wrong education or even, in one case, for his
> uncle having the wrong friend.
Bill
Sep 29, 2012, 5:51:59 PM9/29/12
to
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:21:54 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>The only way for democracy to succeed is if the people involved
>make it happen. We can't do it for them, we can only give them
>the opportunity and resources.
>
>In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>or their opinions. So I think the west should wait until the people
>involved have made their opinions clear in some way, by rebelling
>and such as in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Then the world should
>step forward and help make it happen.
>
>All these Arab uprisings have been creating a template I believe
>for the future. Hopefully the world will build a consensus on when
>and how to pool their resources to help the hot-spot of the day.
>
>If the people around the world start to believe that if they
>rise up against their dictator, the free world will then come
>to the rescue, then democracy could start spreading like
>wildfire.
Iran is not a dictatorship.
Neither is it Arab.
wrote:
>The only way for democracy to succeed is if the people involved
>make it happen. We can't do it for them, we can only give them
>the opportunity and resources.
>
>In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>or their opinions. So I think the west should wait until the people
>involved have made their opinions clear in some way, by rebelling
>and such as in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Then the world should
>step forward and help make it happen.
>
>All these Arab uprisings have been creating a template I believe
>for the future. Hopefully the world will build a consensus on when
>and how to pool their resources to help the hot-spot of the day.
>
>If the people around the world start to believe that if they
>rise up against their dictator, the free world will then come
>to the rescue, then democracy could start spreading like
>wildfire.
Neither is it Arab.
Bill
Sep 29, 2012, 5:57:06 PM9/29/12
to
On 29 Sep 2012 19:59:23 +0100 (BST), Thomas Womack
I have a pretty good idea just how big a shithole Somalia is.
I don't care about them either...
Why should I?
>>But I doubt that'll happen.
>>
>>Too many rich exiles are interested in going home.
>
>Lots of rich Iraqi exiles wanted to go home, and that didn't help a
>lot.
But if the US had invaded and withdrawn and left them to solve their
own problems it may well have done.
It certainly couldn't be any worse than it is now...
I have no problem with the US and friends unseating dictators but if
they're not prepared to impose a democratic system on the end of a
bayonet (a la Germany and Japan in 1945) then the only real
alternative is pulling out and leaving chaos behind.
> A reasonable number of members of the Somali diaspora have got
>reasonably rich and that's not demonstrably helping;
So how many rich Somalis have you met?
I've never met one...
<two...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <hrud68dkkv815mhpa...@4ax.com>,
>Bill <black...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I can live with Iran being another Somalia for a decade or two.
>
>I don't think the world can; I think you're under-estimating how much
>of a shithole Somalia is.
Oh no.
>In article <hrud68dkkv815mhpa...@4ax.com>,
>Bill <black...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I can live with Iran being another Somalia for a decade or two.
>
>I don't think the world can; I think you're under-estimating how much
>of a shithole Somalia is.
I have a pretty good idea just how big a shithole Somalia is.
I don't care about them either...
Why should I?
>>But I doubt that'll happen.
>>
>>Too many rich exiles are interested in going home.
>
>Lots of rich Iraqi exiles wanted to go home, and that didn't help a
>lot.
own problems it may well have done.
It certainly couldn't be any worse than it is now...
I have no problem with the US and friends unseating dictators but if
they're not prepared to impose a democratic system on the end of a
bayonet (a la Germany and Japan in 1945) then the only real
alternative is pulling out and leaving chaos behind.
> A reasonable number of members of the Somali diaspora have got
>reasonably rich and that's not demonstrably helping;
I've never met one...
Bill
Sep 29, 2012, 6:01:33 PM9/29/12
to
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT), tutall <tut...@hotmail.com>
>> As for the 'sum of human misery', them having an atom bomb would add
>> to that in a way I don't even wish to imagine...
>
>I like how you claim to have prescience. Can you give us a stock tip
>as well?
Don't invest in any Iranian power companies...
>We're discussing attacking a sovereign state because of overactive
>imaginations?
True.
Except they deny inspections they've already signed up to.
>Seriously? Go to war because peoples fears have been stoked high
>enough to sear a steak?
Nope.
They are signatories to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty which
allows inspections of all facilities in a country, but they deny the
inspectors access to all the areas they demand.
The US allows this, why does Iran have a special pass?
wrote:
>On Sep 29, 7:36 am, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:00:34 -0700 (PDT), tutall <tut...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sep 28, 5:43 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> They don't need invading.
>>
>> >> Just destroy the current government and their nuclear infrastructure
>> >> and withdraw leaving then inevitable upheaval to produce a more
>> >> amenable government-
>>
>> >So, destroy large pieces of their infrastructure, leave them headless,
>> >causing upheavals and long term human misery to the citizens of the
>> >country and then except good things to come out of it?
>>
>> >Pull the other one why don't you?
>>
>> I expect nothing from them at all.
>>
>> I just wish they'd go away.
>
>If, by "them" you mean the extemist leadership, I'd agree. I work
>with, and you probably have as well, n/m I see you brought this up
>yourself.
I think you have missed some words out in the paragraph above...
>On Sep 29, 7:36 am, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:00:34 -0700 (PDT), tutall <tut...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sep 28, 5:43 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> They don't need invading.
>>
>> >> Just destroy the current government and their nuclear infrastructure
>> >> and withdraw leaving then inevitable upheaval to produce a more
>> >> amenable government-
>>
>> >So, destroy large pieces of their infrastructure, leave them headless,
>> >causing upheavals and long term human misery to the citizens of the
>> >country and then except good things to come out of it?
>>
>> >Pull the other one why don't you?
>>
>> I expect nothing from them at all.
>>
>> I just wish they'd go away.
>
>If, by "them" you mean the extemist leadership, I'd agree. I work
>with, and you probably have as well, n/m I see you brought this up
>yourself.
>> As for the 'sum of human misery', them having an atom bomb would add
>> to that in a way I don't even wish to imagine...
>
>I like how you claim to have prescience. Can you give us a stock tip
>as well?
>We're discussing attacking a sovereign state because of overactive
>imaginations?
Except they deny inspections they've already signed up to.
>Seriously? Go to war because peoples fears have been stoked high
>enough to sear a steak?
They are signatories to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty which
allows inspections of all facilities in a country, but they deny the
inspectors access to all the areas they demand.
The US allows this, why does Iran have a special pass?
Keith W
Sep 29, 2012, 6:09:19 PM9/29/12
to
Keith
La N.
Sep 29, 2012, 6:28:08 PM9/29/12
to
"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:q9re68pbe0ade45d2...@4ax.com...
- nilita, who *does* get a kick, though, out of reading people like Jonathan
with simple ideas on how to fix the world .. .heh....
Bill
Sep 29, 2012, 6:36:36 PM9/29/12
to
Neither did Lenin and Co when it came to driving the church out of its
entrenched positions of power after the Russian Revolution.
To quote the old monster himself:
"The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"
>
Jeffrey Hamilton
Sep 29, 2012, 6:51:07 PM9/29/12
to
I do understand what you are saying, Keith, but would it be worse than it is
now ?
It appears to me that the populace would enjoy freedom, from the Mullahs
rule.
In any event how do you see it unfolding, Keith ? And yes, I *am* interested
in _your_ opinion !
cheers......Jeff
> Keith
Andrew Swallow
Sep 29, 2012, 8:09:25 PM9/29/12
to
On 29/09/2012 23:01, Bill wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT), tutall <tut...@hotmail.com>
{snip}
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT), tutall <tut...@hotmail.com>
>> I like how you claim to have prescience. Can you give us a stock tip
>> as well?
>
> Don't invest in any Iranian power companies...
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
Sep 29, 2012, 8:12:53 PM9/29/12
to
On 29/09/2012 23:36, Bill wrote:
{snip}
> To quote the old monster himself:
>
> "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"
The Cold War showed that the Pope had lots of divisions. The USA and
West European armies, including the protestant countries.
Andrew Swallow
{snip}
> To quote the old monster himself:
>
> "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"
West European armies, including the protestant countries.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Chaplin
Sep 29, 2012, 8:37:49 PM9/29/12
to
Andrew Swallow <am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:KcqdnWCoK50XE_rN...@bt.com:
No, the Pope was one of the West's more effective demagogues.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
news:KcqdnWCoK50XE_rN...@bt.com:
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
dott.Piergiorgio
Sep 30, 2012, 6:30:19 AM9/30/12
to
theocracy in a breeze....
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porta_Pia_breach
go figure... the Pope quickly surrenders notwithstanding that he still
holds the much sturdier Leonine walls, still intact, and has available
more than enough troops and armed volunteers to put a strong & decisive
MOUT in a City in where collateral damage to building are definitively
seriously frown upon by every neutral country (cfr. the contemporary
Common of Paris)
The same principle apply to grand Ayatollahs and Grand Marjas; aim to a
key & highly symbolic point of Iranian defense and hit it with the
maximum effect & minumum losses *to both sides* (and optionally insert
some èlite troops in the field) and a quickly session of Grand Marjas
decides that stepping down from direct gov't is the best option (and on
the iranian expats, I must point that the Pahlavi House is the best
option for a really smooth transition, considering the Iranian
attachment to their heritage....
dott.Piergiorgio
Sep 30, 2012, 6:31:27 AM9/30/12
to
best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Keith W
Sep 30, 2012, 7:47:25 AM9/30/12
to
Bill wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 23:09:19 +0100, "Keith W"
> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:21:54 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The only way for democracy to succeed is if the people involved
>>>> make it happen. We can't do it for them, we can only give them
>>>> the opportunity and resources.
>>>>
>>>> In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>>>> or their opinions. So I think the west should wait until the people
>>>> involved have made their opinions clear in some way, by rebelling
>>>> and such as in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Then the world should
>>>> step forward and help make it happen.
>>>>
>>>> All these Arab uprisings have been creating a template I believe
>>>> for the future. Hopefully the world will build a consensus on when
>>>> and how to pool their resources to help the hot-spot of the day.
>>>>
>>>> If the people around the world start to believe that if they
>>>> rise up against their dictator, the free world will then come
>>>> to the rescue, then democracy could start spreading like
>>>> wildfire.
>>>
>>> Iran is not a dictatorship.
>>>
>>
>>
>> No its a theocracy which is MUCH harder to remove.
>>
>
> The Chinese Communists didn't have much of a problem.
>
China was NOT a theocracy, indeed China has long been religiously
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 23:09:19 +0100, "Keith W"
> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:21:54 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The only way for democracy to succeed is if the people involved
>>>> make it happen. We can't do it for them, we can only give them
>>>> the opportunity and resources.
>>>>
>>>> In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>>>> or their opinions. So I think the west should wait until the people
>>>> involved have made their opinions clear in some way, by rebelling
>>>> and such as in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Then the world should
>>>> step forward and help make it happen.
>>>>
>>>> All these Arab uprisings have been creating a template I believe
>>>> for the future. Hopefully the world will build a consensus on when
>>>> and how to pool their resources to help the hot-spot of the day.
>>>>
>>>> If the people around the world start to believe that if they
>>>> rise up against their dictator, the free world will then come
>>>> to the rescue, then democracy could start spreading like
>>>> wildfire.
>>>
>>> Iran is not a dictatorship.
>>>
>>
>>
>> No its a theocracy which is MUCH harder to remove.
>>
>
> The Chinese Communists didn't have much of a problem.
>
very diverse with the majot groups being around 50% Buddhist,
30 % Taoist and the rest Muslim, Christian and other minor faiths
Mao operated in a failed country rulled by regional warlords chief
of whom was Chaing Kai Shek
> Neither did Lenin and Co when it came to driving the church out of its
> entrenched positions of power after the Russian Revolution.
>
Imperial Russia. What they overthrew was a Russian Provisional
Government who's aim was to have a democratically elected
assembly and President This was NOT a theocracy, in fact a
key policy was the "Abolition of all hereditary, religious, and national
class restrictions"
The provisional government had already removed the church from
its position of power before Lenin left Switzerland.
> To quote the old monster himself:
>
> "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"
Keith
Keith W
Sep 30, 2012, 7:49:27 AM9/30/12
to
out of self interest not because some guy in funny robes in
the Vatican told them too.
Keith
Keith W
Sep 30, 2012, 8:11:54 AM9/30/12
to
far from qialified to do so. The demographic situation in Iran
does not favour the current regime. Unlike the regional Arab
states it has a large pool of educated young people and
the female population are MUCH more liberated than the
situation in the Arab countries, indeed there are more female
graduates than male. The widespread use of mobile phones
means the Mullahs have a hard time controlling the spread of news.
The latest act of the gerontocracy that rules Iran which aims
to restrict female rights will almost certainly backfire in a
big way. Its hard to maintain theocratic control when the
mothers of your children are your worst enemies.
Combine this with an unempoyment rate of more than 20%
for those under 30 and you have created ideal conditions
for a youth protest movement. This movement is centred
around intellectual centres such as the Universities not
mosques which is one reason the Ayatollah's distrust it so much.
That said there is deep distrust of western motives throughout
the Iranian population. Previous western intervention has had
a disastrous long term effect, it was the West that suppressed
the popular Mosaddegh with the CIA and British Secret Service
arranging the coup that overthrew him. The imposition of the
Shah and western support for his tyrannical rule is still fresh
in may peoples memories.
For that reason any attempt by the west to impose a
solution WILL fail and even overt support would likely
be the kiss of death for any emerging opposition.
In my humble opinion the best policy is containment which means
not allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons if at all possible
and leaving the Iranian people to make their own decisions.
Keith
jonathan
Sep 30, 2012, 8:17:44 AM9/30/12
to
"Thomas Womack" <two...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:Lfd*-d...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> In article <YdidndPg58KpofrN...@giganews.com>,
> jonathan <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>>or their opinions.
>
> a) You pointed out the existence of the Internet not very far away in
> jonathan <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>>or their opinions.
>
> this very thread; there is at the very least a substantial vocal
> subgroup of Iranians who explain what they want clearly and
> repeatedly
>
> b) Iran's elections are at an interesting position between
> free-and-fair and laughable; if you want to know what Iranians
> want, the results of the 2009 election and subsequent protests
> are instructive.
Right, I think the people of Iran have come to hate their government.
> subgroup of Iranians who explain what they want clearly and
> repeatedly
>
> b) Iran's elections are at an interesting position between
> free-and-fair and laughable; if you want to know what Iranians
> want, the results of the 2009 election and subsequent protests
> are instructive.
But they seem to still fear it. What bothers me is that in Iraq it seems
the invasion cost so many lives since we went in pretty much alone
and without much international support. Too soon! And then
in Syria, so many have died since the west failed to help finish off
Assad when the people rose up. Too late!
I think all these uprisings are emphasizing the need to have an
international consensus on when it's needed and appropriate
to move against a dangerous dictator. I think in Egypt, Libya
and Syria the actions of the people made it clear the dictators
needed to go, and the world should pool their rescues to
respond in an appropriate and timely way.
And I think the signal to the world has to come from the
people of that country by their actions. So there's no
arguing about the right and wrong of the situation.
>
> But after the debacle of 1953 and the other debacle of 1979, there is
> absolutely no hope that any group perceivable as being the minions of
> the US can intervene sanely to back an anti-government side in Iran
> without simply getting the anti-government side's members imprisoned
> and beaten. Nor for ethnic reasons can a predominantly-Arab group,
> which any large-enough regional consortium would be, get involved.
against the nuclear facilities, the Iranian people suddenly rose up and
started protesting for democracy in a massive way, and the Iranian govt
responded as Assad has?
We'd still have China and Russia saying no to anything to cover their
own asses down the road, so the UN is worthless in such a situation.
The pro-democracy powers throughout the world should work out
a formula for when and how to respond. So the opportunity for change
isn't missed, or botched. So the people of that nation don't pay the
price like in Syria or Iraq.
>
> I think we just have to leave it; if an Iranian rebel group asks for
> UN peacekeepers the UN can probably scare up a group from East Asia,
> South America and Bangladesh, and with a really competent US secretary
> of state then US technical assistance could be provided sufficiently
> subtly and deniably.
response. But it's been too ad hoc with the Arab Spring so far, the
west can do much better. This is a crucial time in history for the
spread of democracy, imo.
There are many more falling dictators in our near future.
And It's fascinating to see the US military changing it's
posture post 9/11 for just that kind of future. This
US Navy commercial is running all the time now
I see it several times a day, and it speaks volumes
about the kind of future the US foresees.
Towards the sounds of Chaos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjgiDovT_bE
And this commercial, in a backhanded way, reminds
the world who owns the high sea~ I love this one
100 Percent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEtZ5r0CIYI
If the west comes together and responds in an credible
way, the people of all those other nations can become
more inspired and confident to act.
But if Syria is the example, instead of Egypt or Libya, the
dictators might hang around far longer.
>
> Tom
jonathan
Sep 30, 2012, 8:29:56 AM9/30/12
to
"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2nif6894ite057n94...@4ax.com...
> "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Times have changed since the Internet.
>>
>>People in Iran or Iraq and most places around
>>the world can now tell the difference between
>>just another dictator, and a more modern form
>>of democracy and freedom.
>>
>
> Jonathan, you're kidding yourself. When do you think the Internet
>
>>
>>Times have changed since the Internet.
>>
>>People in Iran or Iraq and most places around
>>the world can now tell the difference between
>>just another dictator, and a more modern form
>>of democracy and freedom.
>>
>
> came into being? It's hardly 'recent'.
Did I say recent? But your reply explains much, now I know
why you always call me an idiot in each and every reply.
You see in my posts what you want to see.
Maybe you should just look at these pictures instead of
my posts....
https://www.google.com/search?q=rorschach+test+cards&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2zpoUNrNHpK68wTQ6YGICw&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1096&bih=624#q=rorschach+test+cards&hl=en&sa=X&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=fe0514dde4dcbf9b&biw=1224&bih=624
>
>
> --
> "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
> truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
> -- Thomas Jefferson
Keith W
Sep 30, 2012, 8:40:13 AM9/30/12
to
dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
> Il 30/09/2012 00:09, Keith W ha scritto:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:21:54 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The only way for democracy to succeed is if the people involved
>>>> make it happen. We can't do it for them, we can only give them
>>>> the opportunity and resources.
>>>>
>>>> In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>>>> or their opinions. So I think the west should wait until the people
>>>> involved have made their opinions clear in some way, by rebelling
>>>> and such as in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Then the world should
>>>> step forward and help make it happen.
>>>>
>>>> All these Arab uprisings have been creating a template I believe
>>>> for the future. Hopefully the world will build a consensus on when
>>>> and how to pool their resources to help the hot-spot of the day.
>>>>
>>>> If the people around the world start to believe that if they
>>>> rise up against their dictator, the free world will then come
>>>> to the rescue, then democracy could start spreading like
>>>> wildfire.
>>>
>>> Iran is not a dictatorship.
>>>
>>
>>
>> No its a theocracy which is MUCH harder to remove.
>
> you sure ? here in 1870 we removed the most ancient and longest-lived
> theocracy in a breeze....
>
Sorry but it was hardly a breeze. The temporal power of the
> Il 30/09/2012 00:09, Keith W ha scritto:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:21:54 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The only way for democracy to succeed is if the people involved
>>>> make it happen. We can't do it for them, we can only give them
>>>> the opportunity and resources.
>>>>
>>>> In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>>>> or their opinions. So I think the west should wait until the people
>>>> involved have made their opinions clear in some way, by rebelling
>>>> and such as in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Then the world should
>>>> step forward and help make it happen.
>>>>
>>>> All these Arab uprisings have been creating a template I believe
>>>> for the future. Hopefully the world will build a consensus on when
>>>> and how to pool their resources to help the hot-spot of the day.
>>>>
>>>> If the people around the world start to believe that if they
>>>> rise up against their dictator, the free world will then come
>>>> to the rescue, then democracy could start spreading like
>>>> wildfire.
>>>
>>> Iran is not a dictatorship.
>>>
>>
>>
>> No its a theocracy which is MUCH harder to remove.
>
> you sure ? here in 1870 we removed the most ancient and longest-lived
> theocracy in a breeze....
>
Papal States was fatally undermined by Napoleon Bonaparte
and despite its restoration after 1815 it was deeply unpopular.
The rebellions of the 1840's spread to Rome in and 1849 left the
Pope with no choice but to flee the city. His position was
only restored with the help of Napoleon III of France who
sent troops to Rome. By 1860 the newly formed kingdom
of Italy controlled 2/3 of the old Papal States and by 1870
all that was left was the region of Latium. This collapsed
with the destruction of the French second empire at the hands
of the Prussians and French troops were withdrawn
In short the events of 1870 were the final acts of a series of
rebellions that started in 1848 and involved two decades
of warfare.
Keith
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Bill
Sep 30, 2012, 1:26:40 PM9/30/12
to
On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:47:25 +0100, "Keith W"
>> Neither did Lenin and Co when it came to driving the church out of its
>> entrenched positions of power after the Russian Revolution.
>>
>
>Contrary to widespread opinion Lenin and co did NOT overthrow
>Imperial Russia. What they overthrew was a Russian Provisional
>Government who's aim was to have a democratically elected
>assembly and President This was NOT a theocracy, in fact a
>key policy was the "Abolition of all hereditary, religious, and national
>class restrictions"
>
>The provisional government had already removed the church from
>its position of power before Lenin left Switzerland.
Seeing how quickly they restored their political power on the return
of some form of freedom I think the Communists repressed them.
They also seem to have made a decent job of holding down their Muslim
minority for generations.
>> To quote the old monster himself:
>>
>> "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"
>
>Now ask how many divisions does Ali Khameni have.
Facing modern US and European armies?
None that matter.
<keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Bill wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 23:09:19 +0100, "Keith W"
>> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:21:54 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Iran is not a dictatorship.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No its a theocracy which is MUCH harder to remove.
>>>
>>
>> The Chinese Communists didn't have much of a problem.
>>
>
>China was NOT a theocracy, indeed China has long been religiously
>very diverse with the majot groups being around 50% Buddhist,
>30 % Taoist and the rest Muslim, Christian and other minor faiths
>
>Mao operated in a failed country rulled by regional warlords chief
>of whom was Chaing Kai Shek
>
I meant in Tibet.
>Bill wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 23:09:19 +0100, "Keith W"
>> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:21:54 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Iran is not a dictatorship.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No its a theocracy which is MUCH harder to remove.
>>>
>>
>> The Chinese Communists didn't have much of a problem.
>>
>
>China was NOT a theocracy, indeed China has long been religiously
>very diverse with the majot groups being around 50% Buddhist,
>30 % Taoist and the rest Muslim, Christian and other minor faiths
>
>Mao operated in a failed country rulled by regional warlords chief
>of whom was Chaing Kai Shek
>
>> Neither did Lenin and Co when it came to driving the church out of its
>> entrenched positions of power after the Russian Revolution.
>>
>
>Contrary to widespread opinion Lenin and co did NOT overthrow
>Imperial Russia. What they overthrew was a Russian Provisional
>Government who's aim was to have a democratically elected
>assembly and President This was NOT a theocracy, in fact a
>key policy was the "Abolition of all hereditary, religious, and national
>class restrictions"
>
>The provisional government had already removed the church from
>its position of power before Lenin left Switzerland.
of some form of freedom I think the Communists repressed them.
They also seem to have made a decent job of holding down their Muslim
minority for generations.
>> To quote the old monster himself:
>>
>> "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"
>
>Now ask how many divisions does Ali Khameni have.
None that matter.
Jeffrey Hamilton
Sep 30, 2012, 1:28:14 PM9/30/12
to
Keith W wrote:
> Bill wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 22:19:39 +0100, "Keith W"
>> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2012 20:11, Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Before we invade Iran, is there any country that is an immediate
>>>> danger to the USA or Britain?
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Swallow
>>>
>>> Invading Iran would be a seriously bad idea.
>>>
>>> Its a big country, the size France, Germany , Britain and
>>> Spain combined with a population of over 70 million
>>> and the opponents of the current regime would fight
>>> just as hard against any invader as the most fanatical supporter
>>> .
>>> They have a land border through which they can get supplies
>>> and the capability to produce their own weapons from
>>> rifles through to IRBM's
>>
>> They don't need invading.
>>
>> Just destroy the current government and their nuclear infrastructure
>> and withdraw leaving then inevitable upheaval to produce a more
>> amenable government..
>
> I am not saying that no military action is possible, just
> that physical invasion would be a catastrophic mistake." be allowed to
>> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2012 20:11, Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Before we invade Iran, is there any country that is an immediate
>>>> danger to the USA or Britain?
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Swallow
>>>
>>> Invading Iran would be a seriously bad idea.
>>>
>>> Its a big country, the size France, Germany , Britain and
>>> Spain combined with a population of over 70 million
>>> and the opponents of the current regime would fight
>>> just as hard against any invader as the most fanatical supporter
>>> .
>>> They have a land border through which they can get supplies
>>> and the capability to produce their own weapons from
>>> rifles through to IRBM's
>>
>> They don't need invading.
>>
>> Just destroy the current government and their nuclear infrastructure
>> and withdraw leaving then inevitable upheaval to produce a more
>> amenable government..
>
> I am not saying that no military action is possible, just
> take control
> The danger of simply destroying the existing government
> is that there is no real credible alternative right now,
I understand what you are saying, Keith, but would "YET", a newer "theocracy
> is that there is no real credible alternative right now,
be allowed to take control ?
My observation, is that the populace wants and would enourage some serious
change !
Now would they be allowed it, and *that*is the real question....!
cheers...Jeff
>
> Keith
Bill
Sep 30, 2012, 1:33:29 PM9/30/12
to
On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 08:17:44 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>"Thomas Womack" <two...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
>news:Lfd*-d...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>> In article <YdidndPg58KpofrN...@giganews.com>,
>> jonathan <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>>>or their opinions.
>>
>> a) You pointed out the existence of the Internet not very far away in
>> this very thread; there is at the very least a substantial vocal
>> subgroup of Iranians who explain what they want clearly and
>> repeatedly
>>
>> b) Iran's elections are at an interesting position between
>> free-and-fair and laughable; if you want to know what Iranians
>> want, the results of the 2009 election and subsequent protests
>> are instructive.
>
>
>Right, I think the people of Iran have come to hate their government.
>But they seem to still fear it. What bothers me is that in Iraq it seems
>the invasion cost so many lives since we went in pretty much alone
>and without much international support. Too soon! And then
>in Syria, so many have died since the west failed to help finish off
>Assad when the people rose up. Too late!
I'm coming to the conclusion that the actions of the West in Syria are
better than those in Libya.
>I think all these uprisings are emphasizing the need to have an
>international consensus on when it's needed and appropriate
>to move against a dangerous dictator. I think in Egypt, Libya
>and Syria the actions of the people made it clear the dictators
>needed to go, and the world should pool their rescues to
>respond in an appropriate and timely way.
Nope.
Let 'em fight it out.
Supply smallarms and light weapons.
Wait...
Send aid to the survivors when the loud bangs stop.
>And I think the signal to the world has to come from the
>people of that country by their actions. So there's no
>arguing about the right and wrong of the situation.
There's is no 'right and wrong', there's just people killing each
other without any control.
Everyone on both sides is murdering prisoners.
>I agree, but what if after Israel or the US completed a bombing campaign
>against the nuclear facilities, the Iranian people suddenly rose up and
>started protesting for democracy in a massive way, and the Iranian govt
>responded as Assad has?
If we've destroyed the nuclear installations then nobody cares.
>But if Syria is the example, instead of Egypt or Libya, the
>dictators might hang around far longer.
Bahrain is a better example.
Loads of US military boots on the ground and the local degenerate
despot imported Saudi religious mercenaries to do his killing.
The US sat back and watched.
Then he locked up any doctors who bandaged a passing casualty in a
dungeon.
The US sat back and watched.
Then he sat back and counted his money and his wives...
wrote:
>
>"Thomas Womack" <two...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
>news:Lfd*-d...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>> In article <YdidndPg58KpofrN...@giganews.com>,
>> jonathan <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>>>or their opinions.
>>
>> a) You pointed out the existence of the Internet not very far away in
>> this very thread; there is at the very least a substantial vocal
>> subgroup of Iranians who explain what they want clearly and
>> repeatedly
>>
>> b) Iran's elections are at an interesting position between
>> free-and-fair and laughable; if you want to know what Iranians
>> want, the results of the 2009 election and subsequent protests
>> are instructive.
>
>
>Right, I think the people of Iran have come to hate their government.
>But they seem to still fear it. What bothers me is that in Iraq it seems
>the invasion cost so many lives since we went in pretty much alone
>and without much international support. Too soon! And then
>in Syria, so many have died since the west failed to help finish off
>Assad when the people rose up. Too late!
better than those in Libya.
>I think all these uprisings are emphasizing the need to have an
>international consensus on when it's needed and appropriate
>to move against a dangerous dictator. I think in Egypt, Libya
>and Syria the actions of the people made it clear the dictators
>needed to go, and the world should pool their rescues to
>respond in an appropriate and timely way.
Let 'em fight it out.
Supply smallarms and light weapons.
Wait...
Send aid to the survivors when the loud bangs stop.
>And I think the signal to the world has to come from the
>people of that country by their actions. So there's no
>arguing about the right and wrong of the situation.
other without any control.
Everyone on both sides is murdering prisoners.
>I agree, but what if after Israel or the US completed a bombing campaign
>against the nuclear facilities, the Iranian people suddenly rose up and
>started protesting for democracy in a massive way, and the Iranian govt
>responded as Assad has?
>But if Syria is the example, instead of Egypt or Libya, the
>dictators might hang around far longer.
Loads of US military boots on the ground and the local degenerate
despot imported Saudi religious mercenaries to do his killing.
The US sat back and watched.
Then he locked up any doctors who bandaged a passing casualty in a
dungeon.
The US sat back and watched.
Then he sat back and counted his money and his wives...
Andrew Swallow
Sep 30, 2012, 2:27:54 PM9/30/12
to
Civil War.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
Sep 30, 2012, 2:30:03 PM9/30/12
to
Andrew Swallow
Bill
Sep 30, 2012, 3:16:55 PM9/30/12
to
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Sep 30, 2012, 3:53:06 PM9/30/12
to
La N. wrote:
> "Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:q9re68pbe0ade45d2...@4ax.com...
>
>
> What William said.
>
> - nilita, who *does* get a kick, though, out of reading people like Jonathan
> with simple ideas on how to fix the world .. .heh....
My dear airhead...jonathan is like you...another clueless airhead. The
difference is you are an ass kisser (as you did here) but jonathan is not.
Lan/jonathan...Pot/kettle.
;-)
> "Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:q9re68pbe0ade45d2...@4ax.com...
>>>The only way for democracy to succeed is if the people involved
>>>make it happen. We can't do it for them, we can only give them
>>>the opportunity and resources.
>>>
>>>make it happen. We can't do it for them, we can only give them
>>>the opportunity and resources.
>>>
>>>In a dictatorship, there's no way to know what the people want
>>>or their opinions. So I think the west should wait until the people
>>>involved have made their opinions clear in some way, by rebelling
>>>and such as in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Then the world should
>>>step forward and help make it happen.
>>>
>>>All these Arab uprisings have been creating a template I believe
>>>for the future. Hopefully the world will build a consensus on when
>>>and how to pool their resources to help the hot-spot of the day.
>>>
>>>If the people around the world start to believe that if they
>>>rise up against their dictator, the free world will then come
>>>to the rescue, then democracy could start spreading like
>>>wildfire.
>>
>>>involved have made their opinions clear in some way, by rebelling
>>>and such as in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Then the world should
>>>step forward and help make it happen.
>>>
>>>All these Arab uprisings have been creating a template I believe
>>>for the future. Hopefully the world will build a consensus on when
>>>and how to pool their resources to help the hot-spot of the day.
>>>
>>>If the people around the world start to believe that if they
>>>rise up against their dictator, the free world will then come
>>>to the rescue, then democracy could start spreading like
>>>wildfire.
>>
>>Iran is not a dictatorship.
>>
>>Neither is it Arab.
>>
>
>
> What William said.
>
> - nilita, who *does* get a kick, though, out of reading people like Jonathan
> with simple ideas on how to fix the world .. .heh....
My dear airhead...jonathan is like you...another clueless airhead. The
difference is you are an ass kisser (as you did here) but jonathan is not.
Lan/jonathan...Pot/kettle.
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Sep 30, 2012, 4:00:06 PM9/30/12
to
Bill wrote:
>
> The problem with moral power is that it doesn't kill anyone.
An absolutely and utterly stupid statement. Son, please think before posting.
>
> The problem with moral power is that it doesn't kill anyone.
;-)
Andrew Swallow
Sep 30, 2012, 4:08:04 PM9/30/12
to
Andrew Swallow
Bill
Sep 30, 2012, 4:10:59 PM9/30/12
to
I understand that this is an offence where you live, son...
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Sep 30, 2012, 4:25:41 PM9/30/12
to
Bill wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 13:00:06 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
> <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Bill wrote:
>>
>>>The problem with moral power is that it doesn't kill anyone.
>>
>>An absolutely and utterly stupid statement. Son, please think before posting.
>>;-)
>
>
> You're exhibiting stalking behavior.
ha...well so are you, son...as i said think before you post
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 13:00:06 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
> <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Bill wrote:
>>
>>>The problem with moral power is that it doesn't kill anyone.
>>
>>An absolutely and utterly stupid statement. Son, please think before posting.
>>;-)
>
>
> You're exhibiting stalking behavior.
;-)
Keith W
Sep 30, 2012, 4:55:10 PM9/30/12
to
Bill wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:47:25 +0100, "Keith W"
> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 23:09:19 +0100, "Keith W"
>>> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:21:54 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Iran is not a dictatorship.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No its a theocracy which is MUCH harder to remove.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Chinese Communists didn't have much of a problem.
>>>
>>
>> China was NOT a theocracy, indeed China has long been religiously
>> very diverse with the majot groups being around 50% Buddhist,
>> 30 % Taoist and the rest Muslim, Christian and other minor faiths
>>
>> Mao operated in a failed country rulled by regional warlords chief
>> of whom was Chaing Kai Shek
>>
> I meant in Tibet.
>
You are surpised that a nation of a several hundred million people
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:47:25 +0100, "Keith W"
> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 23:09:19 +0100, "Keith W"
>>> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:21:54 -0400, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Iran is not a dictatorship.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No its a theocracy which is MUCH harder to remove.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Chinese Communists didn't have much of a problem.
>>>
>>
>> China was NOT a theocracy, indeed China has long been religiously
>> very diverse with the majot groups being around 50% Buddhist,
>> 30 % Taoist and the rest Muslim, Christian and other minor faiths
>>
>> Mao operated in a failed country rulled by regional warlords chief
>> of whom was Chaing Kai Shek
>>
> I meant in Tibet.
>
successfully invaded a tiny mediaeval country run by buddhists !
Keith
Keith W
Sep 30, 2012, 4:57:25 PM9/30/12
to
of Vatican collaboration with the wartime facists regimes and
its policy of harbouring war criminals was well known.
Keith
Bill
Sep 30, 2012, 7:22:34 PM9/30/12
to
On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:55:10 +0100, "Keith W"
No.
But I was reasonably surprised at the success the Chinese have had
there eradicating the indigenous religion.
But I was reasonably surprised at the success the Chinese have had
there eradicating the indigenous religion.
Jeffrey Hamilton
Oct 1, 2012, 1:54:27 PM10/1/12
to
Fred J. McCall wrote:
> "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Right, I think ...
Would that you in fact, did think and comtemplate a cogent thought pattern.
cheers.....Jeff
> "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Right, I think ...
Would that you in fact, did think and comtemplate a cogent thought pattern.
cheers.....Jeff
jonathan
Oct 1, 2012, 7:51:08 PM10/1/12
to
news:j6og68piet84c1i3t...@4ax.com...
> value of 'before', Jonathan.
>
"Before" is explained in the very first sentence, which says and I quote;
...."Times have changed since the Internet".
Not some small value of before, but before THE FLIPPIN INTERNET!
>>
>>But your reply explains much, now I know
>>why you always call me an idiot in each and every reply.
>>You see in my posts what you want to see.
>>
>
> I call you an idiot because I see in your posts what you put into
> them.
You're still batting 1000, not once have you failed to call me
an idiot. Don't misunderstand, I find it quaint and somehow
reassuring to know some things never change.
s
> "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:2nif6894ite057n94...@4ax.com...
>>> "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Times have changed since the Internet.
>>>>
>>>>People in Iran or Iraq and most places around
>>>>the world can now tell the difference between
>>>>just another dictator, and a more modern form
>>>>of democracy and freedom.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan, you're kidding yourself. When do you think the Internet
>>> came into being? It's hardly 'recent'.
>>>
>>
>>Did I say recent?
>>
>
> "Now" implies that they couldn't before for some relatively small
>
>>
>>"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:2nif6894ite057n94...@4ax.com...
>>> "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Times have changed since the Internet.
>>>>
>>>>People in Iran or Iraq and most places around
>>>>the world can now tell the difference between
>>>>just another dictator, and a more modern form
>>>>of democracy and freedom.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan, you're kidding yourself. When do you think the Internet
>>> came into being? It's hardly 'recent'.
>>>
>>
>>Did I say recent?
>>
>
> value of 'before', Jonathan.
>
"Before" is explained in the very first sentence, which says and I quote;
...."Times have changed since the Internet".
Not some small value of before, but before THE FLIPPIN INTERNET!
>>
>>But your reply explains much, now I know
>>why you always call me an idiot in each and every reply.
>>You see in my posts what you want to see.
>>
>
> them.
You're still batting 1000, not once have you failed to call me
an idiot. Don't misunderstand, I find it quaint and somehow
reassuring to know some things never change.
s
Message has been deleted
Jeffrey Hamilton
Oct 2, 2012, 8:21:49 AM10/2/12
to
agree with your summation. I also read the Wiki entry on *Mosaddegh*, to get
a bit more background on the subject. After reading that page it's very easy
to understsand why Britain and the US are viewed as they are by the
Iranians.
cheers....Jeff
David V. Loewe, Jr
Oct 7, 2012, 2:16:46 PM10/7/12
to
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>
>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in Denver
last Wednesday?
--
"The concept of property is fundamental to our society, probably
to any workable society. Operationally, it is understood by every
child above the age of three. Intellectually, it is understood by
almost no one." - David D. Friedman
>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>
>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in Denver
last Wednesday?
--
"The concept of property is fundamental to our society, probably
to any workable society. Operationally, it is understood by every
child above the age of three. Intellectually, it is understood by
almost no one." - David D. Friedman
Message has been deleted
Andrew Chaplin
Oct 7, 2012, 3:31:56 PM10/7/12
to
"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote in
news:slh378db5dr8q7j8g...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>
>>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_
>>election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>
> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in
> Denver last Wednesday?
"The only poll that counts is the one they take on election day."
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
news:slh378db5dr8q7j8g...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>
>>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_
>>election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>
> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in
> Denver last Wednesday?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
La N.
Oct 7, 2012, 3:48:03 PM10/7/12
to
"Andrew Chaplin" <ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA0E59E008C0CFH...@88.198.244.100...
> "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote in
> news:slh378db5dr8q7j8g...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>>
>>>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_
>>>election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>>
>> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in
>> Denver last Wednesday?
>
> "The only poll that counts is the one they take on election day."
> --
Indeed. Political fortunes can change overnight.
> news:slh378db5dr8q7j8g...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>>
>>>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_
>>>election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>>
>> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in
>> Denver last Wednesday?
>
> "The only poll that counts is the one they take on election day."
> --
- nilita
David Loewe, Jr.
Oct 7, 2012, 4:51:36 PM10/7/12
to
On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:31:56, Andrew Chaplin
<ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:
>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>>
>>>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>>
>> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in
>> Denver last Wednesday?
>
>"The only poll that counts is the one they take on election day."
Voting has already started.
<http://www2.nbc17.com/news/wake-county/2012/oct/05/pace-early-voting-nc-ahead-2008-ar-2668556/>
"More than 25,000 North Carolinians have already turned in their
ballots, according to a website that tracks voting.
N.C. Vote Tracker reports that 25,263 North Carolinians have already
cast their votes. Among those, 13,459 were Republicans, 7,130 were
Democrats and 4,630 were unaffiliated."
I'm voting on the 10th. It is "in person absentee." I'd prefer later,
but that is when I have a ride.
--
"WHY, asks a Democrat leading a training session for fellow activists,
doesn't "Yes we can" work as a slogan any more? "Because we haven't,"
a jaded participant responds."
<ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:
>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>>
>>>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>>
>> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in
>> Denver last Wednesday?
>
>"The only poll that counts is the one they take on election day."
<http://www2.nbc17.com/news/wake-county/2012/oct/05/pace-early-voting-nc-ahead-2008-ar-2668556/>
"More than 25,000 North Carolinians have already turned in their
ballots, according to a website that tracks voting.
N.C. Vote Tracker reports that 25,263 North Carolinians have already
cast their votes. Among those, 13,459 were Republicans, 7,130 were
Democrats and 4,630 were unaffiliated."
I'm voting on the 10th. It is "in person absentee." I'd prefer later,
but that is when I have a ride.
--
"WHY, asks a Democrat leading a training session for fellow activists,
doesn't "Yes we can" work as a slogan any more? "Because we haven't,"
a jaded participant responds."
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 8, 2012, 8:34:51 AM10/8/12
to
Il 07/10/2012 20:49, Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
> "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>
> "David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>> That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>>
>>> http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>>
>> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in Denver
>> last Wednesday?
>>
>
> Oh, he won't change his mind. Jonathan is one of those unthinking
>>
>>> Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>> That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>>
>>> http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>>
>> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in Denver
>> last Wednesday?
>>
>
> lefties and for him Obama can do no wrong.
I have the definite impression that Obama's mind was elsewhere (near
Syrian-Turkish border, perhaps ?)
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Andrew Chaplin
Oct 8, 2012, 8:57:10 AM10/8/12
to
"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:abq378579d435lh06...@4ax.com:
> On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:31:56, Andrew Chaplin
> <ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:
>
>>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>>>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_v
>>>>s_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>>>
>>> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in
>>> Denver last Wednesday?
>>
>>"The only poll that counts is the one they take on election day."
>
> Voting has already started.
>
> <http://www2.nbc17.com/news/wake-county/2012/oct/05/pace-early-voting-nc
> -ahead-2008-ar-2668556/>
>
> "More than 25,000 North Carolinians have already turned in their
> ballots, according to a website that tracks voting.
>
> N.C. Vote Tracker reports that 25,263 North Carolinians have already
> cast their votes. Among those, 13,459 were Republicans, 7,130 were
> Democrats and 4,630 were unaffiliated."
>
> I'm voting on the 10th. It is "in person absentee." I'd prefer later,
> but that is when I have a ride.
I would argue that the votes cast during advance polls are effectively
part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
news:abq378579d435lh06...@4ax.com:
> On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:31:56, Andrew Chaplin
> <ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:
>
>>"David V. Loewe, Jr" <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:15:55, "jonathan" <wr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Mr 47% is finding out the hard way that ..'loose lips sink ships'!
>>>>That hidden video was a knockout punch, one for the books.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_v
>>>>s_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html
>>>
>>> How do you feel now after watching the President get destroyed in
>>> Denver last Wednesday?
>>
>>"The only poll that counts is the one they take on election day."
>
> Voting has already started.
>
> <http://www2.nbc17.com/news/wake-county/2012/oct/05/pace-early-voting-nc
> -ahead-2008-ar-2668556/>
>
> "More than 25,000 North Carolinians have already turned in their
> ballots, according to a website that tracks voting.
>
> N.C. Vote Tracker reports that 25,263 North Carolinians have already
> cast their votes. Among those, 13,459 were Republicans, 7,130 were
> Democrats and 4,630 were unaffiliated."
>
> I'm voting on the 10th. It is "in person absentee." I'd prefer later,
> but that is when I have a ride.
part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
Message has been deleted
David Loewe, Jr.
Oct 8, 2012, 10:22:26 AM10/8/12
to
On Mon, 08 Oct 2012 14:34:51, "dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me>
wrote:
Nearest golf course.
--
"God was knocking on the door. And He wanted in real bad."
Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle - Footfall
wrote:
--
"God was knocking on the door. And He wanted in real bad."
Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle - Footfall
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 8, 2012, 10:25:11 AM10/8/12
to
Il 08/10/2012 16:15, Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
>
> I think Obama's mind is more on the next debate and staying in office
> than it is anywhere else.
this wasn't the last debate prior of the election day ??
>
> I think Obama's mind is more on the next debate and staying in office
> than it is anywhere else.
this wasn't the last debate prior of the election day ??
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 8, 2012, 10:25:52 AM10/8/12
to
Il 08/10/2012 16:22, David Loewe, Jr. ha scritto:
>>> Oh, he won't change his mind. Jonathan is one of those unthinking
>>> lefties and for him Obama can do no wrong.
>>
>> I have the definite impression that Obama's mind was elsewhere (near
>> Syrian-Turkish border, perhaps ?)
>
> Nearest golf course.
Everyone is entitled to think that want to think....
>>> Oh, he won't change his mind. Jonathan is one of those unthinking
>>> lefties and for him Obama can do no wrong.
>>
>> I have the definite impression that Obama's mind was elsewhere (near
>> Syrian-Turkish border, perhaps ?)
>
> Nearest golf course.
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 8, 2012, 10:27:06 AM10/8/12
to
Il 08/10/2012 14:57, Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:
>
> I would argue that the votes cast during advance polls are effectively
> part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
> voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
The core point is that the abs ballots are casted when the electoral
>
> I would argue that the votes cast during advance polls are effectively
> part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
> voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
campaign is still ongoing....
Andrew Chaplin
Oct 8, 2012, 10:49:34 AM10/8/12
to
"dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me> wrote in news:cnBcs.214804$GZ3.28972
@tornado.fastwebnet.it:
> Il 08/10/2012 16:15, Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
>
>> I think Obama's mind is more on the next debate and staying in office
>> than it is anywhere else.
Not unexpectedly.
> this wasn't the last debate prior of the election day ??
There'll be three more: two between the presidential candidates and one
between the vice-presidential candidates.
@tornado.fastwebnet.it:
> Il 08/10/2012 16:15, Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
>
>> I think Obama's mind is more on the next debate and staying in office
>> than it is anywhere else.
> this wasn't the last debate prior of the election day ??
between the vice-presidential candidates.
David V. Loewe, Jr
Oct 8, 2012, 3:40:21 PM10/8/12
to
On Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:25:52, "dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me>
wrote:
>Il 08/10/2012 16:22, David Loewe, Jr. ha scritto:
>
>>>> Oh, he won't change his mind. Jonathan is one of those unthinking
>>>> lefties and for him Obama can do no wrong.
>>>
>>> I have the definite impression that Obama's mind was elsewhere (near
>>> Syrian-Turkish border, perhaps ?)
>>
>> Nearest golf course.
>
>Everyone is entitled to think that want to think....
Julius certainly said as much...
--
"Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt."
- Gaius Julius Caesar
wrote:
>Il 08/10/2012 16:22, David Loewe, Jr. ha scritto:
>
>>>> Oh, he won't change his mind. Jonathan is one of those unthinking
>>>> lefties and for him Obama can do no wrong.
>>>
>>> I have the definite impression that Obama's mind was elsewhere (near
>>> Syrian-Turkish border, perhaps ?)
>>
>> Nearest golf course.
>
>Everyone is entitled to think that want to think....
--
"Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt."
- Gaius Julius Caesar
David V. Loewe, Jr
Oct 8, 2012, 3:44:04 PM10/8/12
to
On Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:27:06, "dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me>
wrote:
>Il 08/10/2012 14:57, Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:
>
>> I would argue that the votes cast during advance polls are effectively
>> part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
>> voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
>
>The core point is that the abs ballots are casted when the electoral
>campaign is still ongoing....
Except that count isn't, AFAIK, of absentee ballots. We have early
voting in some states.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_voting#United_States>
--
"...you know, it seems to me you suffer from the problem of
wanting a tailored fit in an off the rack world."
Dennis Juds
wrote:
>Il 08/10/2012 14:57, Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:
>
>> I would argue that the votes cast during advance polls are effectively
>> part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
>> voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
>
>The core point is that the abs ballots are casted when the electoral
>campaign is still ongoing....
voting in some states.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_voting#United_States>
--
"...you know, it seems to me you suffer from the problem of
wanting a tailored fit in an off the rack world."
Dennis Juds
Message has been deleted
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 9, 2012, 8:32:14 AM10/9/12
to
Il 09/10/2012 06:37, Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
> debates and a Vice Presidential debate left.
mhm.....
indeed, the debates's layout and cadenza are different from the two
earlier prez elections; and I admit, that I must sometimes consider
seriously wp, whose at least do good timeline works & handling of
non-subjective data....
so... mhm.... you don't known football (EU sense) and I don't known
football (US sense)... so, how to put ? perhaps: in that first debate
there was ranging fire in advance of the next pair esp. the last (only
15 days prior of the election day) ?
> "dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me> wrote:
>
>> Il 08/10/2012 16:15, Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
>>
>>>
>>> I think Obama's mind is more on the next debate and staying in office
>>> than it is anywhere else.
>>>
>>
>> this wasn't the last debate prior of the election day ??
>>
>
> Oh no. This was the FIRST one. There are two more Presidential
>
>> Il 08/10/2012 16:15, Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
>>
>>>
>>> I think Obama's mind is more on the next debate and staying in office
>>> than it is anywhere else.
>>>
>>
>> this wasn't the last debate prior of the election day ??
>>
>
> debates and a Vice Presidential debate left.
mhm.....
indeed, the debates's layout and cadenza are different from the two
earlier prez elections; and I admit, that I must sometimes consider
seriously wp, whose at least do good timeline works & handling of
non-subjective data....
so... mhm.... you don't known football (EU sense) and I don't known
football (US sense)... so, how to put ? perhaps: in that first debate
there was ranging fire in advance of the next pair esp. the last (only
15 days prior of the election day) ?
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 9, 2012, 8:35:04 AM10/9/12
to
Il 08/10/2012 21:44, David V. Loewe, Jr ha scritto:
> On Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:27:06, "dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me>
> wrote:
>
>> Il 08/10/2012 14:57, Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:
>>
>>> I would argue that the votes cast during advance polls are effectively
>>> part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
>>> voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
>>
>> The core point is that the abs ballots are casted when the electoral
>> campaign is still ongoing....
>
> Except that count isn't, AFAIK, of absentee ballots. We have early
> voting in some states.
well, the point is that these abs ballots vote are already casted (in
> On Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:27:06, "dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me>
> wrote:
>
>> Il 08/10/2012 14:57, Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:
>>
>>> I would argue that the votes cast during advance polls are effectively
>>> part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
>>> voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
>>
>> The core point is that the abs ballots are casted when the electoral
>> campaign is still ongoing....
>
> Except that count isn't, AFAIK, of absentee ballots. We have early
> voting in some states.
stone) and the voter can't change his mind......
David Loewe, Jr.
Oct 9, 2012, 5:27:41 PM10/9/12
to
On Tue, 09 Oct 2012 14:35:04, "dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me>
Vice-Presidential debate, two Presidential debates and an EmpSit will
all occur after I cast vote tomorrow.
--
"Though these wounds have seen no wars
Except for the scars I have ignored
And this endless crutch, well it's never enough
It's been the Worst Day Since Yesterday"
- Flogging Molly
wrote:
>Il 08/10/2012 21:44, David V. Loewe, Jr ha scritto:
>> On Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:27:06, "dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me>
>> wrote:
>>> Il 08/10/2012 14:57, Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:
>>>
>>>> I would argue that the votes cast during advance polls are effectively
>>>> part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
>>>> voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
>>>
>>> The core point is that the abs ballots are casted when the electoral
>>> campaign is still ongoing....
>>
>> Except that count isn't, AFAIK, of absentee ballots. We have early
>> voting in some states.
>
>well, the point is that these abs ballots vote are already casted (in
>stone) and the voter can't change his mind......
Which would be why they aren't part of a poll TAKEN on Election Day. The
>Il 08/10/2012 21:44, David V. Loewe, Jr ha scritto:
>> On Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:27:06, "dott.Piergiorgio" <chied...@ask.me>
>> wrote:
>>> Il 08/10/2012 14:57, Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:
>>>
>>>> I would argue that the votes cast during advance polls are effectively
>>>> part of the poll on election day, as they remain uncounted until after the
>>>> voting stations close. Mind you, that's our practice here, YMMV.
>>>
>>> The core point is that the abs ballots are casted when the electoral
>>> campaign is still ongoing....
>>
>> Except that count isn't, AFAIK, of absentee ballots. We have early
>> voting in some states.
>
>well, the point is that these abs ballots vote are already casted (in
>stone) and the voter can't change his mind......
Vice-Presidential debate, two Presidential debates and an EmpSit will
all occur after I cast vote tomorrow.
--
"Though these wounds have seen no wars
Except for the scars I have ignored
And this endless crutch, well it's never enough
It's been the Worst Day Since Yesterday"
- Flogging Molly
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 10, 2012, 9:25:10 AM10/10/12
to
Il 09/10/2012 23:27, David Loewe, Jr. ha scritto:
> Which would be why they aren't part of a poll TAKEN on Election Day. The
> Vice-Presidential debate, two Presidential debates and an EmpSit will
> all occur after I cast vote tomorrow.
Exactly. and if the next debates changes your mind, you can't "rectify"
> Which would be why they aren't part of a poll TAKEN on Election Day. The
> Vice-Presidential debate, two Presidential debates and an EmpSit will
> all occur after I cast vote tomorrow.
your vote.....
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