The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behind it's Back
Jonathan
Troops: Strict war rules slow Afghan offensive
(AP) - 4 hours ago
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ie7Ds68zL9eB_hd65DFUETVLashAD9DSPP5G0
This isn't going to be another Fallujah. But much more difficult I'm afraid.
The Taliban in this area have been in control of some half the world's
poppy crop. So I bet they'll be very well-heeled with an endless
supply of ammo and mines of all kinds.
And this time the civilians aren't fleeing.
And because of that, the troops on the ground will be operating with very
restrictive rules, but even worse, we can't make much use of air power
or other stand-off guided weapons because of the large civilian numbers.
We have both hands tied behind our back.
But we must win, I believe this is a sort of Alamo for Islamic extremism.
As that region of Afghanistan is a primary source of cash for them.
God bless our troops! We are asking so much more from them, this time!
If America can't pull this off, no one can.
So we must win!
Jonathan
s
David E. Powell
> Troops: Strict war rules slow Afghan offensive
>
> This isn't going to be another Fallujah. But much more difficult I'm afraid.
>
> The Taliban in this area have been in control of some half the world's
> poppy crop. So I bet they'll be very well-heeled with an endless
> supply of ammo and mines of all kinds.
>
> And this time the civilians aren't fleeing.
>
> And because of that, the troops on the ground will be operating with very
> restrictive rules, but even worse, we can't make much use of air power
> or other stand-off guided weapons because of the large civilian numbers.
>
> We have both hands tied behind our back.
>
> But we must win, I believe this is a sort of Alamo for Islamic extremism.
> As that region of Afghanistan is a primary source of cash for them.
>
> God bless our troops! We are asking so much more from them, this time!
> If America can't pull this off, no one can.
> So we must win!
>
> Jonathan
>
> s
Agreed. In Fallujah the USMC basically said a few weeks before
everything kicked out "Dear civilians, please leave now because when
stuff goes down it is going large." Here they are tring to operate
with the civilians in place which makes things quite a bit trickier.
However, as you say, this is important to the Taliban so perhaps it
gives the chance to really draw them in and make it a battle on our
terms. Use resources, people etc. to draw them and cut them off, then
beat them up, with the goal of taking and holding routes in and out
and taking their resource from them.
kangarooistan
the local population not fighting them and who is a member of the
Taliban living there who does want to fight them."
At least 15,000 US, British and Afghan soldiers have been involved in
operations around Marjah.
James Jones, the US president's senior security adviser, said in
Washington that the offensive was "going very well".
"It's an important moment in time because this is the first time we
put together all of the elements of the president's new strategy."
But US military officials acknowledged that it could take weeks to
secure Marjah and the surrounding areas.
"That doesn't necessarily mean an intense gun battle, but it probably
will be 30 days of clearing," Brigadier General Larry Nicholson said.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2010/02/2010214143350325845.html
2010 offensive
Marja is the target of Operation Moshtarak, a NATO-Afghan joint
offensive involving 15,000 Afghan, Canadian, American, and British
troops.[12]
.
In December 2009 it was still called "the most fearsome Taliban
stronghold in Helmand Province" in an area out of ISAF control during
the Taliban insurgency. According to U.S. Marine commanders the town
was a sanctuary for some 1,000 fighters.[11]
.==========================================================================================
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=afghan+wars&fulltext=Search
* War in Afghanistan (redirect from Afghan Wars)
The terms Afghan War or War in Afghanistan may refer to:
conquest of ... Anglo-Afghan Wars (First British involvement with
Afghanistan): ...
1 KB (106 words) -
* War in Afghanistan
* Second Anglo-Afghan War (section War)
The Second Anglo-Afghan War refers to a war between the United
Kingdom and ... Afghan Wars and the North-West Frontier 1839-1947
Cassell. ...
11 KB (1,430 words) - 11:04, 8 February 2010
* Soviet war in Afghanistan (redirect from Soviet-Afghan War)
The Soviet War in Afghanistan, also known as the Soviet–Afghan
War, was a nine-year ... the recent wars, set up by the veterans of
the Afghan war. ...
82 KB (11,429 words) - 19:53, 14 February 2010
* First Anglo-Afghan War
The First Anglo–Afghan War lasted from 1839 to 1842. ... org/
etext/8428 The Afghan Wars 1839-42 and 1878-80 by Archibald Forbes ,
from Project ...
16 KB (2,157 words) - 13:10, 14 January 2010
*
* Third Anglo-Afghan War
The Third Anglo-Afghan War (also referred to as the Third Afghan
War) began on 6 ... two very bloody and costly wars: the First Anglo-
Afghan ...
40 KB (5,934 words) - 22:08, 14 February 2010
* European influence in Afghanistan (redirect from Afghan state)
The European influence in Afghanistan refers to political,
social, and sometimes ... First Anglo-Afghan War, 1838-1842: First
Anglo-Afghan War ...
36 KB (5,482 words) -
* Democratic Republic of Afghanistan
countries It was both ideologically close to and economically
dependent on the Soviet Union , and was a major belligerent of the
Afghan Civil War . ...
65 KB (9,900 words) - 08:14, 1 February 2010
* Anglo-Afghan War (redirect from Anglo-Afghan Wars)
Anglo-Afghan War may refer to: First Anglo-Afghan War
(1839-1842) Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-1880) Third Anglo-Afghan War
(1919)- ...
507 B (23 words) - 00:49, 3 January 2010
* Britain's role in the War in Afghanistan (2001–present)
(redirect from Britain's role in the 2001-present Afghan war)
The British Armed Forces have played a substantial part in the
Afghanistan War . British efforts in Afghanistan are huge and are
second ...
672 B (88 words) - 16:50, 19 December 2009
* Jim Taylor (Afghan war)
Jim Taylor is an American citizen and employee of the United
States Government He is notable for his role in the July 27, 2002
Afghan ...
6 KB (810 words) - 00:44, 23 December 2009
* To Herat and Cabul, A Story of the First Afghan War
To Herat and Cabul, A Story of the First Afghan War (1902) is a
book by British author G.A. Henty . It was illustrated (with 8 ...
2 KB (153 words) - 20:09, 4 March 2009
* Operation Herrick
which all British operations in the war in Afghanistan have been
conducted since 2002. ... External links : uk/ops/afghan/afghan. ...
25 KB (3,577 words) - 19:30,
* List of Second Afghan War Victoria Cross recipients
The Victoria Cross (VC) was awarded to 16 members of the British
Armed Forces for action during the Second Afghan War of 1878–1880. ...
9 KB (1,091 words) - 10:57,
* Battle of Kabul (1842) (redirect from Battle of Kabul, First
Anglo-Afghan War)
It was the concluding engagement of the First Anglo-Afghan
War . ... authorlink Archibald Forbes | title The Afghan Wars 1839-42
and 1878-80 | ...
13 KB (1,942 words) - 01:39,
.
==============================================================================================
Marja's population has been reported to be about 80-85,000,[1][2]
rising to around 125,000 when surrounded areas are included in the
count.
[3], In TOTAL , LESS than half of one percent , of Afghanistans
population
How much and how LONG will it take to , ' secure ' the rest of the
99.55 of the population
.
Population
A 2009 UN estimate of the total Afghan population is 28,150,000.[3]
In 1979, it was 13,051,358 , .more than double in 30 years
By 2050, the population is estimated to be increased to about 82
million.[135]
About 2.7 million Afghan refugees are currently registered in Pakistan
and Iran.[136]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#Population
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_AfghanistanAs of June 2005,
the Afghan Ministry of the Interior recognised 398 districts, divided
between the 34 provinces. This number is expected to change with
further administrative reorganization.
The districts are listed below, by province:
Contents
[hide]
* 1 Northern Mainland Afghanistan
o 1.1 North Eastern Afghanistan
+ 1.1.1 Badakhshan Province
+ 1.1.2 Baghlan Province
+ 1.1.3 Kunduz Province
+ 1.1.4 Takhar Province
o 1.2 North Western Afghanistan
+ 1.2.1 Balkh Province
+ 1.2.2 Faryab Province
+ 1.2.3 Jowzjan Province
+ 1.2.4 Samangan Province
+ 1.2.5 Sare Pol Province
* 2 Central Mainland Afghanistan
o 2.1 Central Afghanistan
+ 2.1.1 Kabul Province
+ 2.1.2 Kapisa Province
+ 2.1.3 Logar Province
+ 2.1.4 Panjshir Province
+ 2.1.5 Parwan Province
+ 2.1.6 Wardak Province
o 2.2 Eastern Afghanistan
+ 2.2.1 Kunar Province
+ 2.2.2 Laghman Province
+ 2.2.3 Nangarhar Province
+ 2.2.4 Nuristan Province
o 2.3 Western Afghanistan
+ 2.3.1 Badghis Province
+ 2.3.2 Bamyan Province
+ 2.3.3 Farah Province
+ 2.3.4 Ghor Province
+ 2.3.5 Herat Province
* 3 Southern Mainland Afghanistan
o 3.1 South Eastern Afghanistan
+ 3.1.1 Ghazni Province
+ 3.1.2 Khost Province
+ 3.1.3 Paktia Province
+ 3.1.4 Paktika Province
o 3.2 South Western Afghanistan
+ 3.2.1 Daykundi Province
+ 3.2.2 Helmand Province
+ 3.2.3 Kandahar Province
+ 3.2.4 Nimruz Province
+ 3.2.5 Orūzgān Province
+ 3.2.6 Zabul Province
* 4 References
[edit] Northern Mainland Afghanistan
[edit] North Eastern Afghanistan
[edit] Badakhshan Province
Districts of Badakhshan.
Detailed Information of Badakhshan ProvinceCurrent Map of the
Districts of Badakhshan
* Arghanj Khwa - formerly part of Fayzabad District
* Argo - formerly part of Fayzabad District
* Baharak
* Darayim - formerly part of Fayzabad District
* Darwaz
* Darwazi Bala - formerly part of Darwaz District
* Fayzabad
* Ishkashim
* Jurm
* Khash - formerly part of Jurm District
* Khwahan
* Kishim
* Kohistan - formerly part of Baharak District
* Kuf Ab - formerly part of Khwahan District
* Kuran Wa Munjan
* Ragh
* Shahri Buzurg
* Shighnan
* Shiki - formerly part of Fayzabad District
* Shuhada - formerly part of Baharak District
* Tagab - formerly part of Fayzabad District
* Tishkan - formerly part of Kishim District
* Wakhan
* Wurduj - formerly part of Baharak District
* Yaftali Sufla - formerly part of Fayzabad District
* Yamgan - formerly part of Baharak District
* Yawan - formerly part of Ragh District
* Zebak
[edit] Baghlan Province
Districts of Baghlan.
Detailed Information of Baghlan ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Baghlan
* Andarab
* Baghlan - now part of Baghlani Jadid District
* Baghlani Jadid
* Burka
* Dahana i Ghuri
* Dih Salah - formerly part of Andarab District
* Dushi
* Farang wa Gharu - formerly part of Khost Wa Fereng District
* Guzargahi Nur - formerly part of Khost Wa Fereng District
* Khinjan
* Khost wa Fereng
* Khwaja Hijran - formerly part of Andarab District
* Nahrin
* Puli Hisar - formerly part of Andarab District
* Puli Khumri
* Tala Wa Barfak
[edit] Kunduz Province
Districts of Kunduz.
Detailed Information of Kunduz ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Kunduz
* Ali Abad
* Archi
* Chahar Dara
* Imam Sahib
* Khan Abad
* Kunduz
* Qalay-I-Zal
[edit] Takhar Province
Districts of Takhar.
Detailed Information of Takhar ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Takhar
* Baharak - formerly part of Taluqan District
* Bangi
* Chah Ab
* Chal
* Darqad
* Dashti Qala - formerly part of Khwaja Ghar District
* Farkhar
* Hazar Sumuch - formerly part of Taluqan District
* Ishkamish
* Kalafgan
* Khwaja Baha Wuddin - formerly part of Yangi Qala District
* Khwaja Ghar
* Namak Ab - formerly part of Taluqan District
* Rustaq
* Taluqan
* Warsaj
* Yangi Qala
[edit] North Western Afghanistan
[edit] Balkh Province
Districts of Balkh.
Detailed Information of Balkh ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Balkh
* Balkh
* Chahar Bolak
* Chahar Kint
* Chimtal
* Dawlatabad
* Dihdadi
* Kaldar
* Khulmi
* Kishindih
* Marmul
* Mazar-e Sharif
* Nahri Shahi
* Sholgara
* Shortepa
* Zari - formerly part of Kishindih District
[edit] Faryab Province
Districts of Faryab.
Detailed Information of Faryab ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Faryab
* Almar
* Andkhoy
* Bilchiragh
* Dawlat Abad
* Gurziwan - formerly part of Bilchiragh District
* Khani Chahar Bagh
* Khwaja Sabz Posh
* Kohistan
* Maymana
* Pashtun Kot
* Qaramqol
* Qaysar
* Qurghan - formerly part of Andkhoy District
* Shirin Tagab
[edit] Jowzjan Province
Districts of Jowzjan.
Detailed Information of Jowzjan ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Jowzjan
* Aqcha
* Darzab
* Fayzabad
* Khamyab
* Khaniqa - formerly part of Aqcha District
* Khwaja Du Koh
* Mardyan
* Mingajik
* Qarqin
* Qush Tepa - formerly part of Shibirghan District
* Shibirghan
[edit] Samangan Province
Districts of Samangan.
Detailed Information of Samangan ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Samangan
* Aybak
* Dara-I-Sufi Balla - created within the former Dara-I-Suf
District
* Dara-I-Sufi Payan - created within the former Dara-I-Suf
District
* Feroz Nakhchir - formerly part of Khulmi District; shifted from
Balkh Province
* Hazrati Sultan
* Khuram Wa Sarbagh
* Ruyi Du Ab
[edit] Sare Pol Province
Districts of Sar-e Pol.
Detailed Information of Sar-e-Pol ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Sar-e-Pol
* Balkhab
* Gosfandi - formerly part of Sayyad District; most recently
created district up to date
* Kohistanat
* Sangcharak
* Sari Pul
* Sayyad
* Sozma Qala
[edit] Central Mainland Afghanistan
[edit] Central Afghanistan
[edit] Kabul Province
Districts of Kabul.
Detailed Information of Kabul ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Kabul
* Bagrami
* Chahar Asyab
* Deh Sabz
* Farza - formerly part of Mir Bacha Kot District
* Guldara
* Istalif
* Kabul
* Kalakan
* Khaki Jabbar
* Mir Bacha Kot
* Mussahi
* Paghman
* Qarabagh
* Shakardara
* Surobi
[edit] Kapisa Province
Districts of Kapisa.
Detailed Information of Kapisa ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Kapisa
* Alasay
* Hesa Awal Kohistan - created within the former Kohistan District
* Hesa Duwum Kohistan - created within the former Kohistan
District
* Koh Band
* Mahmud Raqi
* Nijrab
* Tagab
[edit] Logar Province
Districts of Logar.
Detailed Information of Logar ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Logar
* Azra - shifted from Paktia Province
* Baraki Barak
* Charkh
* Kharwar - formerly part of Charkh District
* Khoshi
* Mohammad Agha
* Pul-i-Alam
[edit] Panjshir Province
District of Panjshir.
Detailed Information of Panjsher ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Panjsher
* Anaba - created within the former Panjsher District
* Bazarak - created within the former Panjsher District
* Darah - created within the former Hisa Duwum Panjsher District
* Khenj - created within the former Hisa Awal Panjsher District
* Paryan - created within the former Hisa Awal Panjsher District
* Rokha - created within parts of the former Hisa Duwum Panjsher
and Panjsher Districts
* Shotul - created within the former Panjsher District
[edit] Parwan Province
Districts of Parwan.
Detailed Information of Parwan ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Parwan
* Bagram
* Chaharikar
* Ghorband
* Jabal Saraj
* Kohi Safi
* Salang
* Sayed Khel - formerly part of Jabul Saraj District
* Shekh Ali
* Shinwari
* Surkhi Parsa
[edit] Wardak Province
Districts of Wardak.
Detailed Information of Wardak ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Wardak
* Chaki Wardak
* Day Mirdad
* Hisa-I-Awali Bihsud
* Jaghatu - shifted from Ghazni Province
* Jalrez
* Markazi Bihsud
* Maydan Shahr
* Nirkh
* Saydabad
[edit] Eastern Afghanistan
[edit] Kunar Province
Districts of Kunar.
Detailed Information of Kunar ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Kunar
* Asadabad
* Bar Kunar
* Chapa Dara
* Chawkay
* Dangam
* Dara-I-Pech
* Ghaziabad - formerly part of Nurgal District
* Khas Kunar
* Marawara
* Narang Wa Badil
* Nari
* Nurgal
* Shaygal Wa Shiltan - formerly part of Chapa Dara District
* Sirkanay
* Wata Pur - formerly part of Asadabad District
[edit] Laghman Province
Districts of Laghman.
Detailed Information of Laghman ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Laghman
* Alingar
* Alishing
* Dawlat Shah
* Mihtarlam
* Qarghayi
[edit] Nangarhar Province
Districts of Nangarhar.
Detailed Information of Nangarhar ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Nangarhar
* Achin
* Bati Kot
* Bihsud - formerly part of Jalalabad District
* Chaparhar
* Dara-I-Nur
* Dih Bala
* Dur Baba
* Goshta
* Hisarak
* Jalalabad
* Kama
* Khogyani
* Kot - formerly part of Rodat District
* Kuz Kunar
* Lal Pur
* Muhmand Dara
* Nazyan
* Pachir Wa Agam
* Rodat
* Sherzad
* Shinwar
* Surkh Rod
[edit] Nuristan Province
Districts of Nurestan.
Detailed Information of Nurestan ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Nurestan
* Bargi Matal
* Du Ab - formerly part of Kamdesh District
* Kamdesh
* Mandol
* Nurgaram - formerly part of Kamdesh District
* Paroon
* Wama
* Waygal
[edit] Western Afghanistan
[edit] Badghis Province
Districts of Badghis.
Detailed Information of Badghis ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Badghis
* Ab Kamari
* Ghormach
* Jawand
* Muqur
* Murghab
* Qadis
* Qala-I-Naw
[edit] Bamyan Province
Districts of Bamyan.
Detailed Information of Bamiyan ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Bamiyan
* Bamyan
* Kahmard - shifted from Baghlan Province
* Panjab
* Sayghan - formerly part of Kahmard District; shifted from
Baghlan Province
* Shibar
* Waras
* Yakawlang
[edit] Farah Province
Districts of Farah.
Detailed Information of Farah ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Farah
* Anar Dara
* Bakwa
* Bala Buluk
* Farah
* Gulistan
* Khaki Safed
* Lash wa Juwayn
* Pur Chaman
* Pusht Rod
* Qala i Kah
* Shib Koh
[edit] Ghor Province
Districts of Ghor.
Detailed Information of Ghor ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Ghor
* Chaghcharan
* Charsada - formerly part of Chaghcharan District
* Dawlat Yar - formerly part of Chaghcharan District
* Du Layna - formerly part of Chaghcharan District
* Lal Wa Sarjangal
* Pasaband
* Saghar
* Shahrak
* Taywara
* Tulak
[edit] Herat Province
Districts of Herat.
Detailed Information of Herat ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Herat
* Adraskan
* Chishti Sharif
* Farsi
* Ghoryan
* Gulran
* Guzara
* Hirat
* Injil
* Karukh
* Kohsan
* Kushk
* Kushki Kuhna
* Obe
* Pashtun Zarghun
* Shindand
* Zinda Jan
[edit] Southern Mainland Afghanistan
[edit] South Eastern Afghanistan
[edit] Ghazni Province
Districts of Ghazni.
Detailed Information of Ghazni ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Ghazni
* Ab Band
* Ajristan
* Andar
* Dih Yak
* Gelan
* Ghazni City
* Giro
* Jeghatoo (Waeez Shahid)
* Jaghuri
* Khugiani - created from parts of Waeez Shahid and Ghazni
Districts
* Khwaja Umari - formerly part of Waeez Shahid District
* Malistan
* Muqur
* Nawa
* Nawur
* Qarabagh
* Rashidan - formerly part of Waeez Shahid District
* Waghaz - formerly part of Muqur District
* Zana Khan
[edit] Khost Province
Districts of Khost.
Detailed Information of Khost ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Khost
* Bak
* Gurbuz
* Jaji Maydan
* Khost (Matun)
* Mandozai
* Musa Khel
* Nadir Shah Kot
* Qalandar
* Sabari
* Shamal - shifted from Paktia Province
* Spera
* Tani
* Tere Zayi
[edit] Paktia Province
Districts of Paktia.
Detailed Information of Paktia ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Paktia
* Ahmadabad - formerly part of Sayed Karam District
* Chamkani
* Dand Wa Patan
* Gardez
* Jaji
* Jani Khel
* Lazha Ahmad Khel
* Sayed Karam
* Shwak
* Wuza Zadran
* Zurmat
Paktia is a place where all Pashton people live there. But recently
they have been influenced by Pakistani Taliban too much.
[edit] Paktika Province
Districts of Paktika.
Detailed Information of Paktika ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Paktika
* Barmal
* Dila
* Gayan
* Gomal
* Jani Khel - formerly part of Zarghun Shahr District
* Mata Khan
* Nika
* Omna
* Sar Hawza
* Sarobi
* Sharan
* Terwa - formerly part of Waza Khwa District
* Urgun
* Waza Khwa
* Wor Mamay
* Yahya Khel - formerly part of Zarghun Shahr District
* Yosuf Khel - formerly part of Zarghun Shahr District
* Zarghun Shahr
* Ziruk
[edit] South Western Afghanistan
[edit] Daykundi Province
Districts of Daykundi.
Detailed Information of Daykundi ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Daykundi
* Gizab - shifted from Oruzgan Province
* Ishtarlay - created within the former Daykundi District; shifted
from Oruzgan Province
* Kajran - shifted from Oruzgan Province
* Khadir - created within the former Daykundi District; shifted
from Oruzgan Province
* Kiti - formerly part of Kajran District; shifted from Oruzgan
Province
* Miramor - formerly part of Sharistan District; shifted from
Oruzgan Province
* Nili - created within the former Daykundi District; shifted from
Oruzgan Province
* Sangtakht - created within the former Daykundi District; shifted
from Oruzgan Province
* Shahristan - shifted from Oruzgan Province
[edit] Helmand Province
Districts of Helmand.
Detailed Information of Helmand ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Helmand
* Baghran
* Dishu
* Garmsir
* Gerishk
* Kajaki
* Khanashin
* Lashkargah
* Musa Qala
* Nad Ali
* Nawa-I-Barakzayi
* Nawzad
* Sangin
* Washir
Marjah District
[edit] Kandahar Province
Districts of Kandahar.
Detailed Information of Kandahar ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Kandahar
* Arghandab
* Arghistan
* Daman
* Ghorak
* Kandahar
* Khakrez
* Maruf
* Maywand
* Miyan Nasheen - formerly part of Shah Wali Kot District
* Naish - shifted from Oruzgan Province
* Panjwaye
* Reg
* Shah Wali Kot
* Shorabak
* Spin Boldak
* Zhari - created from parts of Maywand and Panjwaye Districts
[edit] Nimruz Province
Districts of Nimruz.
Detailed Information of Nimruz ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Nimruz
* Chahar Burjak
* Chakhansur
* Kang
* Khash Rod
* Zaranj
[edit] Orūzgān Province
Districts of Orūzgān.
Detailed Information of Orūzgān ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts
of Orūzgān
* Chora
* Deh Rahwod
* Khas Uruzgan
* Shahidi Hassas
* Tarin Kowt
Dirawud District
[edit] Zabul Province
Districts of Zabul.
Detailed Information of Zabul ProvinceCurrent Map of the Districts of
Zabul
* Argahandab
* Atghar
* Daychopan
* Kakar - formerly part of Argahandab District
* Mizan
* Naw Bahar - created from parts of Shamulzuyi and Shinkay
Districts
* Qalat
* Shah Joy
* Shamulzayi
* Shinkay
* Tarnak Wa Jaldak
Pat Flannery
> Agreed. In Fallujah the USMC basically said a few weeks before
> everything kicked out "Dear civilians, please leave now because when
> stuff goes down it is going large." Here they are tring to operate
> with the civilians in place which makes things quite a bit trickier.
Which begs the question as to why the civilians didn't flee here also.
Instead they stayed, and the Taleban will melt into the civilian
population once they've hidden their weapons...and wait for us to
declare a historic victory and withdraw most of our troops...then they
will retrieve their weapons and begin a war of attrition against the
troops left to secure the area, using the civilian population as cover.
Anyway, we have captured a important Taleban leader.
He was of course captured in Pakistan, not Afghanistan:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7028598.ece
> However, as you say, this is important to the Taliban so perhaps it
> gives the chance to really draw them in and make it a battle on our
> terms. Use resources, people etc. to draw them and cut them off, then
> beat them up, with the goal of taking and holding routes in and out
> and taking their resource from them.
The Russians tried that.
It didn't work.
Why are we running vast numbers of troops around in Afghanistan, when
the Taleban's commanders are up in Pakistan along with (probably) Osama
bin Laden?
We're hacking tentacles off of the octopus, but the head is in another
country, and as long as it's not killed, it can regenerate the tentacles.
What's needed is a fairly small force that can use intelligence to track
down the key Taleban/Al-Qaeda leaders in Pakistan and assassinate them;
not spending a fortune trying to kill all their troops in Afghanistan.
All that's doing is bankrupting us while pissing off the Afghan
population, which is probably why they didn't leave Marjah when we
approached, unlike they did in Fallujah.
We apparently are more hated than the Taleban, no matter how much the
Afghan population hates (and fears) the Taleban.
Pat
Pat Flannery
> "It is going to be very hard for them to recognise who is a member of
> the local population not fighting them and who is a member of the
> Taliban living there who does want to fight them."
For the life of me, I can't understand how the British got sucked into
Afghanistan after their history there.
At least we got a good laugh out of the French when we asked them to
join us in the invasion of Iraq.
They remembered what happened to us after we followed them into Vietnam;
they weren't about to repeat that mistake by following _us_ into another
part of their colonial empire, Iraq.
If it weren't for all the people getting killed and money vanishing down
the toilet, the whole of the West's "War On Terror" would make a great
Monty Python movie.
It's that surreal.
Slam airplanes into three buildings, and everything goes completely nuts.
It's got a real "Dune" feel about it; bin Laden takes the water of life,
sends some Feydakin to dive their thopters into the spice storage
warehouse in Arrakeen, and the whole universe shits its collective
pants. :-D
Pat
Jack Linthicum
What is the Pakistani version of Miranda rights? This is cheaper than
Predators and Hellfires. Has Pakistan finally decided that they can't
support the Taliban anywhere, and certainly not inside Pakistan?
February 16, 2010
Secret Joint Raid Captures Taliban’s Top Commander
By MARK MAZZETTI and DEXTER FILKINS
WASHINGTON — The Taliban’s top military commander was captured several
days ago in Karachi, Pakistan, in a secret joint operation by
Pakistani and American intelligence forces, according to American
government officials.
The commander, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, is an Afghan described by
American officials as the most significant Taliban figure to be
detained since the American-led war in Afghanistan started more than
eight years ago. He ranks second in influence only to Mullah Muhammad
Omar, the Taliban’s founder and a close associate of Osama bin Laden
before the Sept. 11 attacks.
Mullah Baradar has been in Pakistani custody for several days, with
American and Pakistani intelligence officials both taking part in
interrogations, according to the officials.
It was unclear whether he was talking, but the officials said his
capture had provided a window into the Taliban and could lead to other
senior officials. Most immediately, they hope he will provide the
whereabouts of Mullah Omar, the one-eyed cleric who is the group’s
spiritual leader.
Disclosure of Mullah Baradar’s capture came as American and Afghan
forces were in the midst of a major offensive in southern Afghanistan.
His capture could cripple the Taliban’s military operations, at least
in the short term, said Bruce O. Riedel, a former C.I.A. officer who
last spring led the Obama administration’s Afghanistan and Pakistan
policy review.
Details of the raid remain murky, but officials said that it had been
carried out by Pakistan’s military spy agency, the Directorate for
Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, and that C.I.A. operatives had
accompanied the Pakistanis.
The New York Times learned of the operation on Thursday, but delayed
reporting it at the request of White House officials, who contended
that making it public would end a hugely successful intelligence-
gathering effort. The officials said that the group’s leaders had been
unaware of Mullah Baradar’s capture and that if it became public they
might cover their tracks and become more careful about communicating
with each other.
The Times is publishing the news now because White House officials
acknowledged that the capture of Mullah Baradar was becoming widely
known in the region.
Several American government officials gave details about the raid on
the condition that they not be named, because the operation was
classified.
American officials believe that besides running the Taliban’s military
operations, Mullah Baradar runs the group’s leadership council, often
called the Quetta Shura because its leaders for years have been
thought to be hiding near Quetta, the capital of Baluchistan Province
in Pakistan.
A spokesman for the Taliban insisted on Tuesday that Baradar was still
free.
“This is just rumor spread by foreigners to divert attention from the
Marja offensive,” said the spokesman, Zabiullah Mujahid.
“They are facing big problems in Marja. In reality there is nothing
regarding Baradar’s arrest. He is safe and free and he is in
Afghanistan.”
The participation of Pakistan’s spy service could suggest a new level
of cooperation from Pakistan’s leaders, who have been ambivalent about
American efforts to crush the Taliban. Increasingly, the Americans
say, senior leaders in Pakistan, including the chief of its army, Gen.
Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, have gradually come around to the view that they
can no longer support the Taliban in Afghanistan — as they have
quietly done for years — without endangering themselves. Indeed,
American officials have speculated that Pakistani security officials
could have picked up Mullah Baradar long ago.
The officials said that Pakistan was leading the interrogation of
Mullah Baradar, but that Americans were also involved. The conditions
of the questioning are unclear. In its first week in office, the Obama
administration banned harsh interrogations like waterboarding by
Americans, but the Pakistanis have long been known to subject
prisoners to brutal questioning.
American intelligence officials believe that elements within
Pakistan’s security services have covertly supported the Taliban with
money and logistical help — largely out of a desire to retain some
ally inside Afghanistan for the inevitable day when the Americans
leave.
The ability of the Taliban’s top leaders to operate relatively freely
inside Pakistan has for years been a source of friction between the
ISI and the C.I.A. Americans have complained that they have given ISI
operatives the precise locations of Taliban leaders, but that the
Pakistanis usually refuse to act.
The Pakistanis have countered that the American intelligence was often
outdated, or that faulty information had been fed to the United States
by Afghanistan’s intelligence service.
For the moment it is unclear how the capture of Mullah Baradar will
affect the overall direction of the Taliban, who have so far refused
to disavow Al Qaeda and to accept the Afghan Constitution. American
officials have hoped to win over some midlevel members of the group.
Mr. Riedel, the former C.I.A. official, said that he had not heard
about Mullah Baradar’s capture before being contacted by The Times,
but that the raid constituted a “sea change in Pakistani behavior.”
In recent weeks, American officials have said they have seen
indications that the Pakistani military and spy services may finally
have begun to distance themselves from the Taliban. One Obama
administration official said Monday that the White House had “no
reason to think that anybody was double-dealing at all” in aiding in
the capture of Mullah Baradar.
A parade of American officials traveling to the Pakistani capital have
made the case that the Afghan Taliban are now aligned with groups —
like the Pakistani Taliban — that threaten the stability of the
Pakistani government.
Mullah Baradar oversees the group’s operations across its primary area
of activity in southern and western Afghanistan. While some of the
insurgent groups active in Afghanistan receive only general guidance
from their leaders, the Taliban are believed to be somewhat
hierarchical, with lower-ranking field commanders often taking
directions and orders from their leaders across the border.
In an attempt to improve the Taliban’s image both inside the country
and abroad, Mullah Baradar last year helped issue a “code of conduct”
for Taliban fighters. The handbook, small enough to be carried in the
pocket of each Taliban foot soldier, gave specific guidance about
topics including how to avoid civilian casualties, how to win the
hearts and minds of villagers, and the necessity of limiting suicide
attacks to avoid a backlash.
In recent months, a growing number of Taliban leaders are believed to
have fled to Karachi, a sprawling, chaotic city in southern Pakistan
hundreds of miles from the turbulence of the Afghan frontier. A
diplomat based in Kabul, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said
in an interview last month that Mullah Omar had moved to Karachi, and
that several of his colleagues were there, too.
The leadership council, which includes more than a dozen of the
Taliban’s best-known leaders, charts the overall direction of the war,
assigns Taliban “shadow governors” to run many Afghan provinces and
districts, and chooses battlefield commanders. It also oversees a
number of subcommittees that direct other aspects of the war, like
political, religious and military affairs.
According to Wahid Muzhda, a former Taliban official in Kabul who
stays in touch with former colleagues, the council meets every three
or four months to plot strategy. As recently as three years ago, he
said, the council had 19 members. Since then, six have been killed or
captured. Others have since filled the empty seats, he said.
Among the council members killed were Mullah Dadullah, who died during
a raid by NATO and Afghan forces in 2007. Among the captured were
Mullah Obaidullah, the Taliban defense minister, who reported to Mr.
Baradar.
“The only man more powerful than Baradar is Omar,” Mr. Muzhda said.
“He and Omar cannot meet very often because of security reasons, but
they have a very good relationship.”
Western and Afghan officials familiar with the workings of the
Taliban’s leadership have described Mullah Baradar as one of the
Taliban’s most approachable leaders, and the one most ready to
negotiate with the Afghan government.
Mediators who have worked to resolve kidnappings and other serious
issues have often approached the Taliban leadership through him.
As in the case of the reclusive Mullah Omar, the public details of
Mullah Baradar’s life are murky. According to an Interpol alert, he
was born in 1968 in Weetmak, a village in Afghanistan’s Oruzgan
Province. Terrorism experts describe him as a skilled military leader
who runs many high-level meetings of the Taliban’s top commanders in
Afghanistan.
In answers to questions submitted by Newsweek last summer, Mullah
Baradar said that he could not maintain “continuous contacts” with
Mullah Omar, but that he received advice on “important topics” from
the cleric.
In the same interview, Mullah Baradar said he welcomed a large
increase in American troops in Afghanistan because the Taliban “want
to inflict maximum losses on the Americans, which is possible only
when the Americans are present here in large numbers and come out of
their fortified places.”
Shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, Mullah Baradar was assigned by
Mullah Omar to assume overall command of Taliban forces in northern
Afghanistan. In that role, he oversaw a large group of battle-hardened
Arab and foreign fighters who were based in the northern cities of
Kunduz and Mazar-i-Sharif.
In November 2001, as Taliban forces collapsed after the American
invasion, Mullah Baradar and several other senior Taliban leaders were
captured by Afghan militia fighters aligned with the United States.
But Pakistani intelligence operatives intervened, and Mullah Baradar
and the other Taliban leaders were released, according to a senior
official of the Northern Alliance, the group of Afghans aligned with
the United States.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/world/asia/16intel.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
>
> read more »
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-taliban-arrest16-2010feb16,0,6670993.story
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/15/AR2010021503925.html?hpid=topnews
Pat Flannery
> What is the Pakistani version of Miranda rights?
"You have the right not to speak as long as you want while we have this
cattle prod up your ass." ;-)
Pat
Jack Linthicum
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
I hit something wrong. NBC says the U.S. is participating in the
interrogation of Baradar and that CIA was part of the raid, perhaps
not in person but through information.
Ray O'Hara
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e9c64134-d9e4-4dbf...@k41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
========================================================================
I wonder how Fax and the repubnuts will attack this.
Mike9
> Troops: Strict war rules slow Afghan offensive
>
> This isn't going to be anotherFallujah. But much more difficult I'm afraid.
>
> The Taliban in this area have been in control of some half the world's
> poppy crop. So I bet they'll be very well-heeled with an endless
> supply of ammo and mines of all kinds.
>
> And this time the civilians aren't fleeing.
>
> And because of that, the troops on the ground will be operating with very
> restrictive rules, but even worse, we can't make much use of air power
> or other stand-off guided weapons because of the large civilian numbers.
>
> We have both hands tied behind our back.
>
> But we must win, I believe this is a sort of Alamo for Islamic extremism.
> As that region of Afghanistan is a primary source of cash for them.
>
> God bless our troops! We are asking so much more from them, this time!
> If America can't pull this off, no one can.
> So we must win!
>
> Jonathan
>
> s
Fighting an illegal colonial war with our hands tied behind our back?
We have no business there in the first place whatsoever.
To help them, right?
The real motives are never articulated, to name just a few:
The huge oil and gas reserves around the Caspian are of global
importance (second to the Middle East ===> thus war on Iraq).
Afghanistan is a transit route to Pakistan, India and China.
You can control levers of power if you have some control over
the gas and oil flows so you have bargaining power over
or can even hold back increasing power of Russia, China, India and
Pakistan.
Afghanistan has huge quantities of valuable minerals that have not
been mined.
In a nutshell it's a geopolitical war of greed and global power,
with the Afghans as pawns and victims.
Therefore we need and want military bases in and around Afghanistan
to protect all that power in that region on longer terms, so we
already know
continuing occupation and war is our future.
From the news yesterday:
"In Marjah, however, there was little sign the Taliban were broken.
Instead, small, mobile teams of insurgents repeatedly attacked U.S.
and Afghan troops with rocket, rifle and rocket-propelled grenade
fire.
Insurgents moved close enough to the main road to fire repeatedly at
columns of mine-clearing vehicles.
At midday at least six large gunbattles were raging across the town,
and helicopter gunships couldn't cover all the different fighting
locations."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The DESTRUCTION of Marjah, a farming town of 80,000,
already seems to be in full-swing.
"To save it, we must destroy it."
Where have we heard that before?
In Vietnam they called that 'pacification'!
Gunships and jet fighter-bombers to win the hearts and minds, right?
Thousands of houses being damaged or destroyed.
Thousands are fleeing and will lose everything.
They will all be great friends of the occupiers in the future, right?
The US strategy and approach is absolutely rubbish.
They said they want to 'protect the people' from the Taliban -
by destroying Afghan towns?
The strategy is not only flawed, it is stupid.
They may kill 200 or 300 'Taliban' = Afghan resistance fighters.
But at the same time they will fill 80,000 and tens of thousands of
their relatives
and friends in the surrounding area with more hate. You cannot destroy
towns and the people's property and livelihood and hope they will
ever be your friends. You may be able to buy off thousands for awhile
because of the terrible poverty. But underneath they will continue
to hate you. And justifiably so. It's their land. Not that of invaders
from 8,000 miles away.
Will the illegal occupier never learn?
Tens of millions of us voted for a peacemaker, we thought.
But the system keeps marching on with killing in faraway lands.
And the sheep may swallow and blink but follow it anyway.
It's an illegal and immoral colonial war in Asia. No doubt
whatsoever. In a country 8000 miles away from our shores.
With a population of less than 30 million and one of the poorest
nations on earth.
Pummeled by a nation of 303 million people, one of the
richest nations and certainly the most powerful on earth.
What's wrong with this picture? It cannot be clearer.
Utter contempt and total condemnation.
Michael McKinley
Mike9
> Instead, small, mobile teams of insurgents repeatedly attacked U.S.
> and Afghan troops with rocket, rifle and rocket-propelled grenade
> fire.
>
> Insurgents moved close enough to the main road to fire repeatedly at
> columns of mine-clearing vehicles.
>
> At midday at least six large gunbattles were raging across the town,
> and helicopter gunships couldn't cover all the different fighting
> locations."
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
A farming town of 80000 being destroyed, a BBC photograph.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/8516697.stm
I am sure the Pentagon hates it when they publish pictures like these.
Or maybe not, maybe they came from the Pentagon channels to begin
with.
Maybe the strategy is: Show just a little but not the total
destruction.
Jack Linthicum
>
> I am sure the Pentagon hates it when they publish pictures like these.
> Or maybe not, maybe they came from the Pentagon channels to begin
> with.
> Maybe the strategy is: Show just a little but not the total
> destruction.
"Farming town" is filled with drying opium poppies
Ray O'Hara
=====================================================================
Opium growers are farmers.
and hiding behind women and children is a mistake, they don't stop bullets
worth a damn.
andwhen they do take positions near civilians or in sacred mosques we should
redouble our fire power.
let the enemy know we are unimpressed and that we care less for their stuff
than they do.
Jonathan
"David E. Powell" <David_Po...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e2dba2a5-7907-48e4...@t42g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...
> Agreed. In Fallujah the USMC basically said a few weeks before
> everything kicked out "Dear civilians, please leave now because when
> stuff goes down it is going large." Here they are tring to operate
> with the civilians in place which makes things quite a bit trickier.
Now today the Af\ghan military said the twelve civilians killed in
Marjah were hostages held in a house also being used
to attack US troops.
We may see a lot more of that, where the Taliban use human shields
and retreat into civilian areas hoping we'll kill as many civilians as
possible. It's the only way they can win, if the Afghan govt calls
off the offensive from too many civilian deaths. Given Karzai's past
that tactic could work.
> However, as you say, this is important to the Taliban so perhaps it
> gives the chance to really draw them in and make it a battle on our
> terms. Use resources, people etc. to draw them and cut them off, then
> beat them up, with the goal of taking and holding routes in and out
> and taking their resource from them.
I think Islamic extremism is mostly funded by Iran and the heroin trade.
Let them escape to Pakistsan, it's hard to grow much poppy in the
mountains. And the Iranians are running on empty these days.
If democracy takes hold in Pakistan and Iraq, that lawless region
can't hold out for long anyway.
Jonathan
"Ray O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hlf04p$81g$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>> > Fighting an illegal colonial war with our hands tied behind our back?
Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
offensive? What were the poll results? When was it debated and
by who? Was there a referendum, and what were the results?
The UN, and common decency, has ruled it legal for us to attempt
to return the ability of the Afghan people to make those decisions
by themselves. To return the country to the people of Afghanistan and
out of the hands of 10th century Lords of Repression and Drugs.
>>
>> > The huge oil and gas reserves around the Caspian are of global
>> > importance (second to the Middle East ===> thus war on Iraq).
>> > Afghanistan is a transit route to Pakistan, India and China.
>> > You can control levers of power if you have some control over
>> > the gas and oil flows so you have bargaining power over
>> > or can even hold back increasing power of Russia, China, India and
>> > Pakistan.
>> > Afghanistan has huge quantities of valuable minerals that have not
>> > been mined.
Those arguments have some weight with Iraq, but Afghanistan
is a black hole where nations throw their national treasures and
reputations into, never to be seen again. It's the /last place on earth/
a colonial power would see as 'juicy pickings'. In any event
you fail to see the very simple tactic President Bush used in
deciding for Iraq.
We decided to take on the worst ....first. With the very sound logic
that winning that first battle means winning the rest becomes
inevitable. Marjah is equally important for the battle of Afghanistan.
Win this, and it's all downhill from here.
>>
>> > In a nutshell it's a geopolitical war of greed and global power,
>> > with the Afghans as pawns and victims.
>> > Therefore we need and want military bases in and around Afghanistan
We have military bases almost everywhere. Plenty. What we want
is to establish the domino effect within Islam. Where one dictatorship
after another falls to democracy. The domino effect only works
with things people...want, democracy. Not with dictatorships.
And the Iranians are next. It doesn't matter how dovish or professional
any US administration may be, democracies are drawn to busting up
dictatorships like moths to a flame. As you can see happening in Iran
today, dictatorships must constantly escalate tensions with the outside
world in order to prevent losing the support of the people.
Which is a timeless flaw, or viscous cycle, inherent in almost any rigid
command structure.Which is true in most dictatorships of any kind,
economic, military or religious. Doesn't matter, in the end they all go out
in a blaze of glory as a result.
Only democracy can bring long term stability, prosperity and hope.
And yes, that is in our national, geopolitical, military and economic
self interest. Which is why conflict with dictatorships are inevitable.
s
Jonathan
Gee, I wonder is waterboarding is legal in Pakistan?
>
>
Ray O'Hara
"Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
news:246dnUZzSK-n2ObW...@giganews.com...
if you are going to snip everything I wrote and leave something someone
wlse wrote then please remove my name.
you have committed a usenet faux pas.
I'll assume you just made a mistake this time and refrain from using terms
like "you crazy fuck-head" and "shitstain" but I do ask you be more careful
in the future.
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
Too bad your thinking is so twisted.
William Black
"Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
news:246dnUZzSK-n2ObW...@giganews.com...
> Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
> how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
> offensive?
That's easy. They'd like the very loud bangs to stop, please, right
now...
> The UN, and common decency, has ruled it legal for us to attempt
> to return the ability of the Afghan people to make those decisions
> by themselves.
Return?
When did the people of Afghanistan ever have that right?
> We have military bases almost everywhere. Plenty. What we want
> is to establish the domino effect within Islam. Where one dictatorship
> after another falls to democracy. The domino effect only works
> with things people...want, democracy. Not with dictatorships.
The Taliban is not a dictatorship.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Jonathan
> if you are going to snip everything I wrote and leave something someone wlse
> wrote then please remove my name.
> you have committed a usenet faux pas.
Ya one too many indentations there, I wasn't paying attention.
>
>
William Black
"Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
> I think Islamic extremism is mostly funded by Iran and the heroin trade.
Everyone else thinks it is funded by Saudi Arabia and oil.
Iran is Shia, the Afghans are mostly Sunni, they'd much rather kill each
other than anyone else.
Ray O'Hara
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.25e50abe...@news.bytemine.net...
why? because I'm immune to wingnut propaganda.?
Ray O'Hara
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hlfsd4$7oj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
> news:246dnUZzSK-n2ObW...@giganews.com...
>
>> Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
>> how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
>> offensive?
>
> That's easy. They'd like the very loud bangs to stop, please, right
> now...
>
>> The UN, and common decency, has ruled it legal for us to attempt
>> to return the ability of the Afghan people to make those decisions
>> by themselves.
>
> Return?
>
> When did the people of Afghanistan ever have that right?
>
>
>> We have military bases almost everywhere. Plenty. What we want
>> is to establish the domino effect within Islam. Where one dictatorship
>> after another falls to democracy. The domino effect only works
>> with things people...want, democracy. Not with dictatorships.
>
> The Taliban is not a dictatorship.
>
What is it? its certainly not a republican form of government.
a theoracy is a type of dictatorship
William Black
It appears to have a sort of collective leadership that functions well if it
takes hits.
You know.
Like the military.
Now it can be safely assumed that this military leadership talks to some
sort of theocratic council because, unless there's an emergent religious
leader who claims sovereignty, that's how Islam runs things when it's in
power.
That's assuming we're facing a monolithic enemy, which we may not be...
A lot of what the media is calling 'The Taliban' is just the locals behaving
as they always have when a foreign army turns up.
A Pathan military leader leads the men he has with him, he traditionally
takes no tactical orders from anyone and finds his own finance and weapons.
I have seen no evidence of anything different happening yet.
The idea that the disparate warring tribes of Afghanistan have a unified
leadership is absurd.
A lot of the tribes (and clans within those tribes) would much rather shoot
at each other than an invading army, which is probably where we're getting
some of our 'friends' from.
Andrew Swallow
> "It is going to be very hard for them to recognise who is a member of
> the local population not fighting them and who is a member of the
> Taliban living there who does want to fight them."
>
If it is too hard then do not bother - intern the lot, including
women and children.
All civilians have been ordered to leave, so anyone left is either
a combatant or someone for whom the normal methods of control are
inadequate; possibly because the Taliban are using the civilians human
shields by threatening "violence to life and person". Banned under
Common Article 3.1.(a).
Since the Taliban are using the civilians as human shields the
"security of the Detaining Power" is being compromised because
the allied forces are being prevented from using their normal
weapons and tactics. Convention (IV) Articles 41 and 42 apply.
<http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5>
Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time
of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.
[quote]
Article 41. Should the Power, in whose hands protected persons may be,
consider the measures of control mentioned in the present Convention to
be inadequate, it may not have recourse to any other measure of control
more severe than that of assigned residence or internment, in accordance
with the provisions of Articles 42 and 43.
In applying the provisions of Article 39, second paragraph, to the cases
of persons required to leave their usual places of residence by virtue
of a decision placing them in assigned residence elsewhere, the
Detaining Power shall be guided as closely as possible by the standards
of welfare set forth in Part III, Section IV of this Convention.
Article. 42. The internment or placing in assigned residence of
protected persons may be ordered only if the security of the Detaining
Power makes it absolutely necessary.
If any person, acting through the representatives of the Protecting
Power, voluntarily demands internment, and if his situation renders this
step necessary, he shall be interned by the Power in whose hands he may be.
[/quote]
Hopefully after a couple of entire villages have been interned the
word will spread and the civilians will leave the battle zone.
Three camps may be needed for this:
1. interment camp for women and children.
2. internment camp for civilian men, initially high security.
3. prison camp for captured Taliban fighters.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
>> The Taliban is not a dictatorship.
>>
>
> What is it? its certainly not a republican form of government.
> a theoracy is a type of dictatorship
>
>
From the outside the Taliban feels like a group of war lords.
Andrew Swallow
William Black
"Andrew Swallow" <am.sw...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:ir6dnT8xK-IYMObW...@bt.com...
No no no...
That's our side...
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>
> news:ir6dnT8xK-IYMObW...@bt.com...
>
> > Ray O'Hara wrote:
> > {snip}
>
> >>> The Taliban is not a dictatorship.
>
> >> What is it? its certainly not a republican form of government.
> >> a theoracy is a type of dictatorship
> > From the outside the Taliban feels like a group of war lords.
>
> No no no...
>
> That's our side...
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.
Seems more like what Americans call a "Yard Sale", everyone
participates until the profits start to dwindle.
William Black
On Feb 17, 4:27 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>
> news:ir6dnT8xK-IYMObW...@bt.com...
>
> > Ray O'Hara wrote:
> >> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> > {snip}
>
> >>> The Taliban is not a dictatorship.
>
> >> What is it? its certainly not a republican form of government.
> >> a theoracy is a type of dictatorship
> > From the outside the Taliban feels like a group of war lords.
>
> No no no...
>
> That's our side...
Seems more like what Americans call a "Yard Sale", everyone
participates until the profits start to dwindle.
------------------------------
Welcome to South Asia, where everything is for sale...
Andrew Swallow
> Andrew Swallow <am.sw...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>
> :kangarooistan wrote:
> :> "It is going to be very hard for them to recognise who is a member of
> :> the local population not fighting them and who is a member of the
> :> Taliban living there who does want to fight them."
> :>
> :
> :If it is too hard then do not bother - intern the lot, including
> :women and children.
>
> So you propose concentration camps?
>
>
The other sort of internment camps.
Andrew Swallow
Jack Linthicum
There is another kind?
Andrew Swallow
Yes. It appears that in Malaysia the Chinese still live in the
internment camps although the British have gone.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Village>
Make sure that the interned people have lots of food and water.
Andrew Swallow
William Black
The old 'fortified villages' idea.
It only works if you can guarantee that the people in thema re on your side.
In Vietnam they proved trivially easy for the Vietnamese Communists to
subvert.
Andrew Swallow
Only if you allow the people out to work. Fortify every village and
the locals have to work. Fortify a few and they can be a prison.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
>
> Go look up the original uses of concentration camps.
>
>
I know the story and spotted the trap.
Andrew Swallow
David E. Powell
> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:MPG.25e50abe...@news.bytemine.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <hlees2$af...@news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
> > oh...@hotmail.com says...
>
> >> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >>news:e9c64134-d9e4-4dbf...@k41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Feb 16, 8:56 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> I hit something wrong. NBC says the U.S. is participating in the
> >> interrogation of Baradar and that CIA was part of the raid, perhaps
> >> not in person but through information.
>
> >> ========================================================================
>
> >> I wonder how Fax and the repubnuts will attack this.
>
> > Too bad your thinking is so twisted.
>
I think the point was, Fox wouldn't care if the CIA were involved. Or
if they did it would be to say "Oh the CIA helped with the attack?
Neat!"
David E. Powell
wrote:
> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>
> news:mfqdnUzix--UaObW...@bt.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Jack Linthicum wrote:
> >> On Feb 17, 8:32 am, Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> >>> Fred J. McCall wrote:
> >>>> Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> >>>> :kangarooistan wrote:
> >>>> :> "It is going to be very hard for them to recognise who is a member
> >>>> of
> >>>> :> the local population not fighting them and who is a member of the
> >>>> :> Taliban living there who does want to fight them."
> >>>> :>
> >>>> :
> >>>> :If it is too hard then do not bother - intern the lot, including
> >>>> :women and children.
> >>>> :
> >>>> So you propose concentration camps?
> >>> The other sort of internment camps.
>
> >>> Andrew Swallow
>
> >> There is another kind?
>
> > Yes. It appears that in Malaysia the Chinese still live in the
> > internment camps although the British have gone.
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Village>
>
> > Make sure that the interned people have lots of food and water.
>
> The old 'fortified villages' idea.
>
> It only works if you can guarantee that the people in thema re on your side.
>
> In Vietnam they proved trivially easy for the Vietnamese Communists to
> subvert.
The trick in Afghanistan will be preplicating the tactics elsewhere in
Helmand. The farmers who grew poppies for smugglers weren't getting
the full value of the final product. One can use "farm subsidies" to
promote other crops. Also, closing routes tthe enemy can come in and
out by helps. Then not only do they have an economic rival, the
smuggling gets harder. Provide security, and a better deal.
Also the Taliban being there for years can work against them as they
have to have made some locals mad at them.
The key will be the Afghan Army forces, this is very high profile for
them, down to them raising the Afghan flag over the captured city.
Much as Iraq's forces in the last year or two this will be big for the
Afghans.
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
But they didn't, Otherwise the release would have said so. Best guess
the CIA has been tracking Baradar and finally convinced the ISI that
it would more useful to pull him in off the street than to have him
accidently killed by some one.
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
and another one, not a good idea to have someone else know your travel
plans.
Posted Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:35 PM
Exclusive: Another Taliban Leader Captured in Pakistan
Newsweek
By Sami Yousafzai and Mark Hosenball
Another leader of the Afghan Taliban has been captured by authorities
in Pakistan working in partnership with U.S. intelligence officials.
Taliban sources in the region and a counterterrorism officials in
Washington have identified the detained insurgent leader as Mullah
Abdul Salam, described as the Taliban movement's "shadow governor" of
Afghanistan's Kunduz province.
Taliban sources told NEWSWEEK's Sami Yousafzai that Salam was grabbed
by Pakistani security forces in the city of Faisalabad about a week ago
—close to the same time that Pakistani forces, again with American
support, captured the Afghan Taliban's No. 2 leader, Mullah Abdul
Ghani Baradar, in Karachi. The Taliban sources said that Mullah Salam
was arrested with three other militants.
Advertisement
According to the Taliban sources, at the time of his capture Mullah
Salam was preparing to travel to meet Mullah Baradar. Some sources
suggested that the arrests of the two insurgent leaders might be
linked, though this could not be confirmed in Washington.
Mullah Salam was one of the Taliban's most effective commanders in
northern Afghanistan and therefore one of the men most wanted by U.S.
and NATO forces fighting there. Salam's soldiers are reputed to have
been particularly deadly in their attacks on German troops fighting in
northern Afghanistan.
A U.S. counterterrorism official confirmed to NEWSWEEK that Mullah
Salam had been captured. "Thanks to solid intelligence work and some
courageous partners in Pakistan, this hasn't been a good time for the
leadership of the Afghan Taliban," said the official, who, like others
cited in this story, asked for anonymity when discussing sensitive
information. "While these kinds of operations aren't the whole answer,
you can't succeed against an enemy like this until you prove he can't
win on the battlefield. Taking out [the] top guys is part of that."
Both the Afghan and Pakistani branches of the Taliban appear to have
suffered significant leadership losses recently. Mullah Baradar's
capture last week is regarded as a major breakthrough, although there
are still questions about how much access U.S. officials will have to
Mullah Baradar, who is being held by Pakistan. A source close to
Pakistan's leadership indicated that Mullah Baradar is under the
control of Pakistan's Interior Ministry, and noted that Pakistani
authorities may not treat him gently.
mike
wrote:
> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>
> > Yes. It appears that in Malaysia the Chinese still live in the
> > internment camps although the British have gone.
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Village>
>
> > Make sure that the interned people have lots of food and water.
>
> The old 'fortified villages' idea.
>
> It only works if you can guarantee that the people in thema re on your side.
>
> In Vietnam they proved trivially easy for the Vietnamese Communists to
> subvert.
>
What did work in the end was a few things.
Ruff Puffs. Arm the locals.
Combined Action Platoon Program. Add Marines to help the above.
Phoenix. Whack suspected bad actors right and left.
By 1971, the VC were no longer a problem. Those 'fish' could
no longer swim in that sea.
**
mike
**
Jonathan
>
> "Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
> news:246dnUZzSK-n2ObW...@giganews.com...
>
>> Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
>> how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
>> offensive?
>
> That's easy. They'd like the very loud bangs to stop, please, right now...
What makes you say that?
The Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who represents the majority of Iraq, didn't have
any problem with our campaign in Fallujah.
>
>> The UN, and common decency, has ruled it legal for us to attempt
>> to return the ability of the Afghan people to make those decisions
>> by themselves.
>
> Return?
>
> When did the people of Afghanistan ever have that right?
Opportunity might have been a better word. But you make my
point, Afghanistan has suffered at the hands of dictators for too long.
Which is why it's such a hellhole.
>
>
>> We have military bases almost everywhere. Plenty. What we want
>> is to establish the domino effect within Islam. Where one dictatorship
>> after another falls to democracy. The domino effect only works
>> with things people...want, democracy. Not with dictatorships.
>
> The Taliban is not a dictatorship.
Any top down or rigid control structure is a dictatorship. Whether
that dictatorship is economic, religious or military doesn't really
matter. Such control systems all suffer from the same fatal flaws
and generally end up going out in a horrific Blaze of Glory.
A rigid or dogmatic control structure, where the power is in the hands
of a few, are highly resistant to change. The people constantly change
their needs, desires and interests. The two camps inherently drift
apart over time from the simple fact one is highly adaptive, the other
is highly resistant to change.
A dictatorship is destined for conflict internally, and also with democracies
for the same reason.
A govt must have the ability to quickly adapt.
>
>
> --
> William Black
>
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.
All unnatural systems have an expiration date.
Democracy reflects a natural system. (positive sum)
Dictatorships reflect a man-made system. (negative sum)
With good and evil appropriately assigned to each.
As in Natural vs Man-made.
Since one creates, and the other destroys.
s
>
Arved Sandstrom
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:hlfsd4$7oj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> "Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
>> news:246dnUZzSK-n2ObW...@giganews.com...
>>
>>> Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
>>> how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
>>> offensive?
>> That's easy. They'd like the very loud bangs to stop, please, right now...
>
>
> What makes you say that?
> The Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who represents the majority of Iraq, didn't have
> any problem with our campaign in Fallujah.
But I'll bet that the people in Fallujah would have liked the very loud
bangs to stop, please, right now...
AHS
Jonathan
"Arved Sandstrom" <dce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FZ0fn.68024$PH1.1203@edtnps82...
The reason Baghdad /every day/ had one 'very loud bang' after another is due
to the fact that just forty miles to the west lies a Sunni insurgent stronghold
called Fallujah. When a lawless city, like Fallujah, has as it's only export an
unending stream of car- bombs, dedicated to blowing up only crowded
market places full of women, and schools full of little girls, then NOT taking
over
Fallujah would be a crime against humanity.
The Ayatollah and the Iraqi govt constantly criticized us for not bringing
enough
troops to be able to stop the car and suicide bombings, mostly coming from
Fallujah, which accounted for roughly /half/ of all the ...Iraqi...casualites.
In December 2006, the city had become stable enough to return control back
to the Iraqi forces. Take a look at this chart and what happend ...after 2006.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
I bet the same will be true for Marjah with the steadily increasing violence
in Afghanistan. It's the difference between winning or losing.
Not to mention getting rid of half the world's heroin crop.
>
> AHS
David E. Powell
My bad.
Another thing could be that someone implied that if they didn't take
care of the problem in their own way someone else would in another
way.
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
Because you are so closed minded.
frank
Bigger problem was we never knew how to fight in Vietnam. By 71 we
were going into Vietnamization with allies who were no where capable
of taking over their defense. We weren't supplying them, they couldn't
call in air strikes in the vast majority of the units. NVA waited a
decent interval and rolled them up. Henry the K pretty much let them
do it. By the time we really had a commander who knew how to get ARVN
into a decent force, we were leaving. American people had no stomach
for it, military was crapping out morale wise. Draftees weren't
playing nice. Even had an article in Pacific Stars and Stripes of how
to use an M-16 for a bong. Guess all the offizers had enough tickets
punched by then. Race relations was a real problem. Considering our
ally was pretty much a corrupt government, why we stayed so long is
really hard to justify. SVN could not hold its territory without us.
When they gave up whole areas to the NVA and what were left of the VC,
the handwriting was on the wall for April 75 to come to pass. What
Nixon agreed to on the peace process didn't help either.
William Black
"mike" <mara...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fb962bb9-3966-4d8a...@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 17, 10:22 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>
> > Yes. It appears that in Malaysia the Chinese still live in the
> > internment camps although the British have gone.
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Village>
>
> > Make sure that the interned people have lots of food and water.
>
> The old 'fortified villages' idea.
>
> It only works if you can guarantee that the people in thema re on your
> side.
>
> In Vietnam they proved trivially easy for the Vietnamese Communists to
> subvert.
>
What did work in the end was a few things.
Ruff Puffs. Arm the locals.
-------------------------
The locals are already armed to a level that would give the average Texas
gun nut palpitations.
---------------------------
Phoenix. Whack suspected bad actors right and left.
---------------------------
If you murder someone in Vietnam the worst that's going to happen is maybe
his kids and cousins will join the VC.
This is Afghanistan, whack the wrong one and you'll start a blood feud with
the whole clan that could last three hundred years and poison any alliance
you're starting to form with the whole tribe.
William Black
"Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
>
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:hlfsd4$7oj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
>> news:246dnUZzSK-n2ObW...@giganews.com...
>>
>>> Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
>>> how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
>>> offensive?
>>
>> That's easy. They'd like the very loud bangs to stop, please, right
>> now...
>
>
> What makes you say that?
> The Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who represents the majority of Iraq, didn't
> have
> any problem with our campaign in Fallujah.
Because nobody in Afghanistanreally cares what religious leaders say unless
it's 'kill the infidels'.
>> The Taliban is not a dictatorship.
>
>
> Any top down or rigid control structure is a dictatorship. Whether
> that dictatorship is economic, religious or military doesn't really
> matter.
That shows a terrifying lack of understanding about how Pathan society and
something called Pashtunwali works.
Pathan society works as an absolute democracy.
Anyone trying to impose upon them just gets shot.
The men doing the shooting are doing the shooting because they want to do
the shooting. Their families respect thatd ecision even if they don't agree
with it. Leaders are selected by the jirga (an assembly of all the men
involved) based, usually, on wealth and reputation.
Jack Linthicum
Someone seems to have untied those hands. But of course everyone knows
that Obama is so soft on terrorism and is unable to do anything in
Afghanistan. Hey, Ali, have you seen my rolladex? Or maybe Mr. Baradar
just likes to chat. Sans augment interrogation techniques. Pfffft!
February 19, 2010
In Blow to Taliban, 2 More Senior Leaders Are Arrested
By DEXTER FILKINS
KABUL, Afghanistan — Two senior Taliban leaders have been arrested in
recent days inside Pakistan, officials said Thursday, as American and
Pakistani intelligence agents continued to press their offensive
against the group’s leadership after the capture of the insurgency’s
military commander last month.
Afghan officials said the Taliban’s “shadow governors” for two
provinces in northern Afghanistan had been detained in Pakistan by
officials there. Mullah Abdul Salam, the Taliban’s leader in Kunduz,
was detained in the Pakistani city of Faisalabad, and Mullah Mir
Mohammed of Baghlan Province was also captured in an undisclosed
Pakistani city, they said.
The arrests come on the heels of the capture of Abdul Ghani Baradar,
the Taliban’s military commander and the deputy to Mullah Muhammad
Omar, the movement’s founder. Mr. Baradar was arrested in a joint
operation by the C.I.A. and the ISI, Pakistan’s military intelligence
agency.
The arrests were made by Pakistani officials, the Afghans said, but it
seemed probable that C.I.A. officers accompanied them, as they did in
the arrest of Mr. Baradar. Pakistani officials declined to comment.
Together, the three arrests mark the most significant blow to the
Taliban’s leadership since the American-backed war began eight years
ago. They also demonstrate the extent to which the Taliban’s senior
leaders have been able to use Pakistan as a sanctuary to plan and
mount attacks in Afghanistan.
A senior United States official, speaking on condition of anonymity,
said that the arrest of the two shadow governors was unrelated to Mr.
Baradar’s capture.
Even so, Muhammad Omar, the governor of Kunduz Province, said in an
interview that the two Taliban shadow governors maintained a close
working relationship with Mr. Baradar.
“Mullah Salam and Mullah Mohammed were the most merciless
individuals,” said Gen. Razaq Yaqoobi, police chief of Kunduz
Province. “Most of the terror, executions and other crimes committed
in northern Afghanistan were on their orders.”
The immediate impact of the arrests of the two Taliban governors was
unclear. In the short term, it could probably be expected to hurt the
Taliban’s operations somewhat and possibly demoralize their rank-and-
file fighters, but probably not for long. In the past the Taliban have
proved capable of quickly replacing their killed or captured leaders.
The three recent arrests — all in Pakistan — demonstrate a greater
level of cooperation by Pakistan in hunting leaders of the Afghan
Taliban than in the entire eight years of war. American officials have
complained bitterly since 2001 that the Pakistanis, while claiming to
be American allies and accepting American aid were simultaneously
providing sanctuary and assistance to Taliban fighters and leaders who
were battling the Americans across the border.
In conversations with American officials, Pakistani officials would
often claim not to know about the existence of the “Quetta Shura,” the
name given to the council of senior Taliban leaders that used the
Pakistani city of Quetta as a sanctuary for years. It was the Quetta
Shura — also known as the Supreme Council — that Mr. Baradar presided
over.
It is still far from clear, but senior commanders in Afghanistan say
they believe that the Pakistani military and intelligence agencies,
led by Gens. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Ahmed Shuja Pasha, may finally
be coming around to the belief that the Taliban — in Pakistan and
Afghanistan — constitute a threat to the existence of the Pakistani
state.
“I believe that General Kayani and his leaders have come to the
conclusion that they want us to succeed,” a senior NATO officer in
Kabul said.
Word of the arrests of the shadow governors came as American, Afghan
and British forces continue to press ahead with their largest military
operation to date, in the Afghan agricultural town of Marja. Earlier
this month, on the eve of the Marja invasion, Afghan officials also
detained Marja’s shadow governor as he tried to flee the country.
The Taliban figures are commonly referred to as “shadow governors”
because their identities are secret and because they mirror the
legitimate governors appointed by the Afghan government. The Taliban’s
shadow governors oversee all military and political operations in a
given area.
Even before the arrests in Pakistan, the American and Afghan military
and intelligence services appeared to have been enjoying a run of
success against Taliban leaders inside Afghanistan.
The senior NATO officer, speaking on condition of anonymity, said
American forces had detained or killed “three or four” Taliban
provincial governors in the past several weeks, including the
Taliban’s shadow governor for Laghman Province.
Another NATO officer, also speaking on the condition of anonymity,
said that Mullah Zakhir, the Taliban’s military commander for southern
Afghanistan, had been ordered back to Pakistan before the Marja
offensive.
Indeed, the capture of two Taliban governors inside Pakistan may
reflect the greater level of insecurity that all Taliban leaders are
feeling inside Afghanistan at the moment.
“The Taliban are feeling a new level of pain,” the senior NATO officer
said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/world/asia/19taliban.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
frank
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
God, stuff you couldnt' get in supply, was on the black market. Seems
Afghanistan is just as bad. Except in VN they weren't selling flash
drives with classified / sensitive information. Weren't invented yet.
The US could probably cut the defense budget by NOT getting involved
in wars where there was a strong merchant class with lots of bazaars
to sell all the stuff the logistics types always seem to lose from
their pipeline...
Eric Chomko
wrote:
> On Feb 17, 4:27 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:ir6dnT8xK-IYMObW...@bt.com...
>
> > > Ray O'Hara wrote:
> > >> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > {snip}
>
> > >>> The Taliban is not a dictatorship.
>
> > >> What is it? its certainly not a republican form of government.
> > >> a theoracy is a type of dictatorship
> > > From the outside the Taliban feels like a group of war lords.
>
> > No no no...
>
> > That's our side...
>
> > William Black
>
> > I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> > Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> > I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> > All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
> > Time for tea.
>
> participates until the profits start to dwindle.
Yard sales yield a profit? Heck I thought yard sales were for getting
rid of stuff that you think others may want that you haven't donated
to charity or thrown out, and that aren't worth putting on eBay.
Jack Linthicum
In the neighborhood yard sales I have participated in the "good" stuff
goes early, pretty much at the listed price. Towards the third or
fourth hour items are sold for the buyer's price, finally the junk is
given away.
Jonathan
>
> "Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
>>
>> Any top down or rigid control structure is a dictatorship. Whether
>> that dictatorship is economic, religious or military doesn't really
>> matter.
>
> That shows a terrifying lack of understanding about how Pathan society and
> something called Pashtunwali works.
>
> Pathan society works as an absolute democracy.
>
And you think that's what is going on in Marjah today?
Are these tribal elders responsible for the ...92 ...tons...of
poppy seed the US confiscated from Marjah just last spring?
Did the people consent, or are they being forced to plant poppy
and arm insurgents?
The US has respect for the tribal system used in the region
as it reflect many democratic principle.
For example....
Fallujah
"The new mayor of the city Taha Bidaywi Hamed, selected by
local tribal leaders was strongly pro-American"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah
Only a city of sociopaths would voluntarily consent to the
mass processing of the most addictive drug on the face of
the planet, painting a deadly target over the entire city and
all it's people? Even Evo Morales understands the immorality
of doing something like that. The Taliban have forcibly taken
over and rule as any dictatorship would, by the few imposing
their decisions by fear and force. Not by the consent of the
people, where legitimacy resides.
> Anyone trying to impose upon them just gets shot.
And I think the reality is that the Taliban are imposing themselves
in order to profit from the massive drug trade. We are the ones
freeing them from a recently imposed dictatorship. Or more
accurately a large criminal entrerprise.
>
> The men doing the shooting are doing the shooting because they want to do the
> shooting. Their families respect thatd ecision even if they don't agree with
> it. Leaders are selected by the jirga (an assembly of all the men involved)
> based, usually, on wealth and reputation.
Without the Taliban that could become a reality, but not if we let
the entire country become controlled by the largest Drug Cartel
in the world. Is that what your arguing for?
Like it was before 9/11?
Jonathan
On Feb 15, 8:12 pm, "Jonathan" <H...@Again.net> wrote:
> Someone seems to have untied those hands. But of course everyone knows
> that Obama is so soft on terrorism and is unable to do anything in
> Afghanistan. Hey, Ali, have you seen my rolladex? Or maybe Mr. Baradar
> just likes to chat. Sans augment interrogation techniques. Pfffft!
> February 19, 2010
> In Blow to Taliban, 2 More Senior Leaders Are Arrested
> By DEXTER FILKINS
Well, remember that Clinton tended to defer to the military.
He was quoted as saying his lack of service meant he didn't
have enough credibility to ignore the Pentagon's advice.
I think the same thing is going on here. They seem to be applying
all the lessons learned in Iraq to this operation. It was clear
during most of Iraq that the Pentagon brass wanted more troops
and nation building then Bush/Cheney wanted.
So far so good. Hopefully our military has finally figured out
how to 'win the hearts and minds'.
And today I read the US claims to already have control over most
of they city. The paper also said the insurgents were forcing civilians
to stand in the windows and on the roofs of buildings they
were using to fire at our troops.
s
KABUL, Afghanistan - Two senior Taliban leaders have been arrested in
The three recent arrests - all in Pakistan - demonstrate a greater
level of cooperation by Pakistan in hunting leaders of the Afghan
Taliban than in the entire eight years of war. American officials have
complained bitterly since 2001 that the Pakistanis, while claiming to
be American allies and accepting American aid were simultaneously
providing sanctuary and assistance to Taliban fighters and leaders who
were battling the Americans across the border.
In conversations with American officials, Pakistani officials would
often claim not to know about the existence of the "Quetta Shura," the
name given to the council of senior Taliban leaders that used the
Pakistani city of Quetta as a sanctuary for years. It was the Quetta
Shura - also known as the Supreme Council - that Mr. Baradar presided
over.
It is still far from clear, but senior commanders in Afghanistan say
they believe that the Pakistani military and intelligence agencies,
led by Gens. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Ahmed Shuja Pasha, may finally
be coming around to the belief that the Taliban - in Pakistan and
Afghanistan - constitute a threat to the existence of the Pakistani
David E. Powell
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4b4c0caa-6cc6-4c7e...@y33g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 15, 8:12 pm, "Jonathan" <H...@Again.net> wrote:
>
> > Someone seems to have untied those hands. But of course everyone knows
> > that Obama is so soft on terrorism and is unable to do anything in
> > Afghanistan. Hey, Ali, have you seen my rolladex? Or maybe Mr. Baradar
> > just likes to chat. Sans augment interrogation techniques. Pfffft!
> > February 19, 2010
> > In Blow to Taliban, 2 More Senior Leaders Are Arrested
> > By DEXTER FILKINS
>
> Well, remember that Clinton tended to defer to the military.
> He was quoted as saying his lack of service meant he didn't
> have enough credibility to ignore the Pentagon's advice.
>
> I think the same thing is going on here. They seem to be applying
> all the lessons learned in Iraq to this operation. It was clear
> during most of Iraq that the Pentagon brass wanted more troops
> and nation building then Bush/Cheney wanted.
The key may well have been McCain's opposition to Rumsfeld, who had
been behind the small footprint strategy, which worked great in
initial attack and capture of Iraq and Afghanistan but was criticised
fro too low a footprint after.
> So far so good. Hopefully our military has finally figured out
> how to 'win the hearts and minds'.
Agreed, and to combine it with the tactics that work in the field to
isolate guerrillas, drive off support, marginalize them and dry their
support base. Force them to either quit or stand in place in ground
where they can't move well enough to hit and run.
William Black
"Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
>
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:hljr43$i3v$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Jonathan" <Ho...@Again.net> wrote in message
>
>>>
>>> Any top down or rigid control structure is a dictatorship. Whether
>>> that dictatorship is economic, religious or military doesn't really
>>> matter.
>>
>
>
>> That shows a terrifying lack of understanding about how Pathan society
>> and something called Pashtunwali works.
>>
>> Pathan society works as an absolute democracy.
>>
>
>
> And you think that's what is going on in Marjah today?
> Are these tribal elders
Oh Gawd, how many more times, there are NO tribal elders.
> The US has respect for the tribal system used in the region
> as it reflect many democratic principle.
>
> For example....
>
> Fallujah
>
> "The new mayor of the city Taha Bidaywi Hamed, selected by
> local tribal leaders was strongly pro-American"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah
You just don't get it do you.
Any mayor apointed by 'the tribal elders' in Afghanistan would just be
murdered. First, there are no tribal elders, everyone's voice is equal,
some are just heard with more respect than others, and second, every man
has a vote at the jirga.
>
>> The men doing the shooting are doing the shooting because they want to do
>> the shooting. Their families respect thatd ecision even if they don't
>> agree with it. Leaders are selected by the jirga (an assembly of all the
>> men involved) based, usually, on wealth and reputation.
>
>
> Without the Taliban that could become a reality, but not if we let
> the entire country become controlled by the largest Drug Cartel
> in the world. Is that what your arguing for?
What's your solution?
The country isn't suseptable to long term military conquest, as everyone
who has ever tried it has found and the people who live there are quite
happy with the system they have at the moment, well, except for the women
and anyone who has an education, but they don't have any guns...
The idea that the Taliban have ridden rough-shod over the social system
there is, frankly, laughable.
They exist within it and have exploited it.
Jack Linthicum
The generals also wanted to wait until "all" the augmentation troops
got there. Say December. 2010. No, this is management telling labor to
get their ass out on the production line and stop taking those long
lunch hours.
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
Any sign that anybody in real contact with Rumsfeld and his 1930s idea
as to what constituted a war agreed with him? Other than to keep
getting promoted?
Richard Casady
wrote:
>> The old 'fortified villages' idea.
>>
>> It only works if you can guarantee that the people in thema re on your side.
>>
>> In Vietnam they proved trivially easy for the Vietnamese Communists to
>> subvert.
>>
>
>What did work in the end was a few things.
>
>Ruff Puffs. Arm the locals.
>
>Combined Action Platoon Program. Add Marines to help the above.
>
>Phoenix. Whack suspected bad actors right and left.
>
>By 1971, the VC were no longer a problem. Those 'fish' could
>no longer swim in that sea.
In 1975 Ho Chi Minh's guys purged the survivors. A very few got out
with the boat people and before the fall, and some are in the US
keeping a very low profile. Some US veterans were organizing a reunion
with the VC and NVA invited, because, after all, it would hardly have
been the same war without them.
Casady
Jack Linthicum
>
"Overwhelming to the point of saturation"
February 20, 2010
Military Analysis
Afghan Push Went Beyond Traditional Military Goals
By THOM SHANKER
WASHINGTON — Before 10,000 troops marched through central Helmand
Province to wrest control of a small Afghan town from a few hundred
entrenched Taliban fighters, American officials did something more
typical of political than military campaigns: they took some polls.
Perhaps no other feature of the offensive now under way in and around
the town, Marja, speaks so clearly to its central characteristic: it
is a campaign meant to shift perceptions as much as to alter the
military balance, crush an enemy army or seize some vital crossroads.
The polling was aimed at understanding what local residents wanted;
how they viewed local security; what they thought of the Americans,
the Taliban and the foreign jihadis fighting for local control; and
what might give them confidence in the central government in Kabul.
Whatever the limitations of this opinion sampling — what is the margin
of error when there are whole neighborhoods where it is deadly to
knock on doors? — what the commanders learned helped shape the entire
campaign. Among other things, those living in the area still harbor
some friendly feelings for the Americans, remembering how years ago
they built dams in the region, and strongly favor an effort to oust
the Taliban.
That gave the military extra confidence as they mounted a
counterinsurgency operation that stands out in many ways.
Notably, this was the first time that the Americans took pains to
involve the central government of President Hamid Karzai in such a
significant operation, let alone a multiphase campaign that included
the military, government and economic stability. Aside from
contributing thousands of troops, Mr. Karzai and his aides, with
significant help from the Americans, basically built a government in
waiting. The aim is for the Afghan government to carry out programs in
education, health and employment as soon as the area is secured,
according to a senior American officer.
The size of the onslaught was a departure from past practice, too. The
allied force is so large as to be described by one senior American
adviser as “overwhelming to the point of saturation.”
And the operation was advertised, almost in neon lights, so far in
advance and in such detail that there was none of the element of
surprise that combat commanders usually prize.
All of those characteristics are explained by the psychological goal
of this campaign, a shift of perceptions among the fence-sitters and
the fearful among the Afghan people.
Even domestically, the operation is supposed to show Americans that
the buildup ordered by President Obama can have swift and positive
results. The White House is not declaring victory, though; after Mr.
Obama was briefed by Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, his field commander,
on Tuesday, the White House press secretary, Robert Gibbs, said only
that the campaign was “highly planned and orchestrated.”
The project was set in motion six months ago, when General McChrystal
reported to President Obama that the Taliban, despite its relatively
light forces, had seized the initiative largely through adroit
exploitation of the tools of psychological warfare. Insurgent leaders
had become more nimble at exploiting even small victories — and
retelling even their battlefield defeats as successes through a
propaganda network of radio broadcasts, Web postings and threatening,
hand-delivered “night letters” to Afghan villages.
The problem was how a foreign army, no matter how much it built up,
could drown out the Taliban message and try to recast the Afghan
government and its coalition partners as winners. Combat operations
measured by industrial-age standards of captured terrain and enemy
dead had to be replaced by another standard adapted to the information
era: whether the operation can win the trust of the local people.
“The biggest thing is in convincing the Afghan people,” General
McChrystal said in Istanbul, where he joined Defense Secretary Robert
M. Gates to brief NATO allies just before the offensive began.
“This is all a war of perceptions,” General McChrystal said. “This is
not a physical war in terms of how many people you kill or how much
ground you capture, how many bridges you blow up. This is all in the
minds of the participants.”
Senior Pentagon and military officers also point out that the troop
ratio reverses several years in which planners sought to capitalize on
new technologies and new theories of military reform to fight in both
Iraq and Afghanistan with the smallest possible forces. “The number of
the enemy did not drive the equation,” said one senior American
officer involved in the Marja effort. “It was a calculation based on
how much ground we wanted to cover with a security blanket to reassure
the population.”
The senior officer and other military officials spoke on the condition
of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about the
operation.
Although it is a battle for public support, it is by no means a phony
war. The bullets, bombs and booby traps are real, putting everyone in
the area, including civilians, at real risk.
The leaflets scattered over the region persuaded some of the Taliban
to flee in the face of the onslaught, but others dug in and laid down
mines.
It was a risk that the commanders accepted, hoping that civilians, at
least, would be able to stay relatively safe. They knew that one of
the principal dangers to their psychological war would be the anger
stirred if civilian casualties were high.
They are hoping the campaign will be short. Officers say the major
combat portion of the offensive should be over within a month or so.
Then political and economic development advisers, now standing by,
will move in behind the combat force, along with two thousand Afghan
police officers.
On Thursday, the British commander of NATO forces in southern
Afghanistan, Maj. Gen. Nick Carter, told reporters at the Pentagon
that it would take months to judge whether the local residents were
satisfied.
“We probably won’t know for about 120 days whether or not the
population is entirely convinced by the degree of commitment that
their government is showing to them,” General Carter said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/20/world/20military.html?ref=world&pagewanted=print
Pat Flannery
> �This is all a war of perceptions,� General McChrystal said. �This is
> not a physical war in terms of how many people you kill or how much
> ground you capture, how many bridges you blow up. This is all in the
> minds of the participants.�
Oh, dear God... the "hearts and minds" routine again.
We'll be seeing "the light at the end of the tunnel" shortly.
Pat
Roger Conroy
"Pat Flannery" <fla...@daktel.com> wrote in message
news:9uqdnb6ePpqMuh3W...@posted.northdakotatelephone...
> Jack Linthicum wrote:
>
>> �This is all a war of perceptions,� General McChrystal said. �This is
>> not a physical war in terms of how many people you kill or how much
>> ground you capture, how many bridges you blow up. This is all in the
>
> Oh, dear God... the "hearts and minds" routine again.
> We'll be seeing "the light at the end of the tunnel" shortly.
>
> Pat
Who first said, "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will
follow"?
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> "Pat Flannery" <flan...@daktel.com> wrote in message
In this case we may have them by their wallet, all those drying poppy
seeds aren't there for the dried flowers market.
Pat Flannery
> Oh, dear God... the "hearts and minds" routine again.
> We'll be seeing "the light at the end of the tunnel" shortly.
Meanwhile, a real "blast from the past":
http://redbannernorthernfleet.blogspot.com/2010/02/jest-roll-to-your-rifle-and-blow-out.html
Handy tips for Soviet soldiers fighting in Afghanistan.
No hooliganism of any kind, Comrades!
Pat
Kerryn Offord
> "Pat Flannery" <fla...@daktel.com> wrote in message
> news:9uqdnb6ePpqMuh3W...@posted.northdakotatelephone...
>> Jack Linthicum wrote:
>>
>>> not a physical war in terms of how many people you kill or how much
>>> ground you capture, how many bridges you blow up. This is all in the
>> Oh, dear God... the "hearts and minds" routine again.
>> We'll be seeing "the light at the end of the tunnel" shortly.
>>
>> Pat
>
> Who first said, "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will
> follow"?
>
>
Which of course only lasts until you let go.. then they come back with a
bit of added resentment..
The idea behind Hearts and Minds is to get them to support your side
because they want to.. that lasts a lot longer than force
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Pat Flannery
> Who first said, "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will
> follow"?
It's been attributed to a whole range of different people, from John
Wayne, to General Sheridan, to LBJ, to Chuck Colson, to Teddy Roosevelt
(not in a million years would he say that; he used to immediately
dismiss anyone from his presence who would use hard language in public),
to John Adams (did they call testicles "balls" way back then?) to a
Green Berets officer during Vietnam, to a Marine officer during the
same...and that last one sounds exactly right to me...and if some Marine
didn't say it, he certainly should have. :-)
I was thinking more of "winning the battle for hearts and minds" that
LBJ used as a description of the Vietnam War; I suspect the "by the
balls" remark was a response to that.
Here's our version of the Soviet Afghanistan handbook, in this case a
WWII handbook for American troops in Iraq:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12637899
You can read or download it here:
http://www.archive.org/details/AShortGuideToIraq_175
Pat
Jack Linthicum
Pat Flannery
>
> Another county heard from
>
> http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/54/messages/368.html
The TR quote ("To put into words what is in their hearts and minds but
not in their mouths.") only vaguely resembles the "got them by the
balls" one. In fact, it sounds like something out of Homer's Iliad, or
at least Fagles' translation of it. :-)
I could certainly picture Senator Mendel Rivers coming up with something
like that, as to me it has the stamp of the south on it.
Alexander Haig just passed away, and he said one of the wittiest things
I've ever heard. He was smoking a cigar at a party, and a reporter got a
look at the company ID ring around it, and realized it was a Cuban brand.
Reporter: "General! _You_ smoking a Cuban cigar?"
Haig: "I prefer to think of it as burning Castro's crops." :-D
Pat
hal...@aol.com
In the old days it meant we used OVERWHELMING FORCE, decimated the
place taking out all key roads bridges and utilities. Basically
destroyed the place making the residents homeless and helpless.
The we tried the new way vietnam, the clean humane war. Minimize at
all costs civilian casulaties, knock the power grid off line but do no
major long term damage, accept more troop losses for US, while trying
to be nice..And do it all WITHOUT overwhelming force....
Can this really be effective?
When we decimated the country we attacked the residents knew they lost
and needed us desperately to survive.
Plus we already had enough troops on site to provide pretty good
security:)
Now compare the old wars like WW1 & WW 2 with the transitional one
korea, cuba, vietnam, iraq and now afghanistan.
Its my sad belief the country being attacked must KNOW IT LOST, to
truly accept our help and reform its ways and become
respectable..........
Their hearts and minds must accept we lost theres no other way than
accept the US, and join them........
War is ugly, civilians die, and trying to have clean wars just drag
out the hostilties for all sides withno real conclusion.
Nce the US leaves iraq the problem will likely return..........
Plus the US cant be the worlds cop, theres too many bad guys and not
enough of us... Although this is a seperate issue
Jack Linthicum
But isn't a country, it's a variation on a fundamental image of a
religion. How do you "defeat" a religion?
Richard Casady
<jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Who first said, "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will
>> follow"?
Colson, of the Watergate scandal, said that.
Casady
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:54:53 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
>
> >> Who first said, "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will
> >> follow"?
>
> Colson, of the Watergate scandal, said that.
>
> Casady
No, someone gave Colson a plaque that said that.
"According to a new reference just purchased today, Charles "Chuck"
Colson, President Nixon's general counsel, had a plaque in his office
with that saying. A former Green Beret had "that plaque made up, then
gave it to him because he thought this saying applied to his work in
the White House." One possible origin "is a Vietnam-era congressional
debate in which a liberal Democrat pleaded for programs designed to
'win the hearts and minds of the downtrodden.' Hawkish Rep. Mendel
Rivers (D-S.C.) responded, 'I say get 'em by the balls and their
hearts and minds will follow.' It's doubtful that this rejoinder began
with Rivers, however. It certainly didn't begin with Charles Colson.
Verdict: Author unknown..." From "The Quote Verifier: Who Said What,
Where, and When" by Ralph Keyes, (St. Martin's Griffin, New York,
2006), Page 8."
Richard Casady
>> Who first said, "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will
>> follow"?
>
>In this case we may have them by their wallet, all those drying poppy
>seeds aren't there for the dried flowers market.
Huh? You buy the crop for a fair price, in gold, destroy it and
everone is happy except the drug smugglers, and you kill them. I
realize it isn't so simple or easy but something along those lines.
Casady
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:54:53 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
>
> >> Who first said, "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will
> >> follow"?
>
> >In this case we may have them by their wallet, all those drying poppy
> >seeds aren't there for the dried flowers market.
>
> Huh? You buy the crop for a fair price, in gold, destroy it and
> everone is happy except the drug smugglers, and you kill them. I
> realize it isn't so simple or easy but something along those lines.
>
> Casady
"yes, "Something along those lines". Ask your therapist what you are
showing by that post.
Pat Flannery
> But isn't a country, it's a variation on a fundamental image of a
> religion. How do you "defeat" a religion?
Exile its leader from Tibet?
No, that didn't work...
I know...you convince them that sexual reproduction is a sin, and every
time they want to screw, they should make a piece of furniture instead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers
In around 100 years they will be almost all gone, and the collector's
value of their furniture will go right through the roof, despite the
fact that each member of the religion made enough to furnish a large hotel.
Pat
Jack Linthicum
Better than the voiced alternative. One billion dead would drive up
the cost of land, just for the burial.
William Black
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3dbd071f-3576-4768...@b10g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
> When we decimated the country we attacked the residents knew they lost
> and needed us desperately to survive.
It's Afghanistan, they expect to lose, expect to be decimated, and expect
their irregular tactics to triumph in the end, as they have done for the
past 2,000 years.
Pat Flannery
> Better than the voiced alternative. One billion dead would drive up
> the cost of land, just for the burial.
Burial? Who said anything about burial?
Just wait a year or two and things will take care of themselves.
A couple years back, I knew someone who wanted to kill all the Iranians.
I did a little math for him.
The population of Iran was estimated to be around 66.5 million at the
time; if he were to say the names of everyone he intended to kill
one-by-one, it would probably average out at around 2 seconds per name.
At that rate, he would be saying their names (at a rate of 43,200 per
day) for over 4 years, assuming he didn't sleep.
Pat
Andrew Swallow
{snip}
>
> But isn't a country, it's a variation on a fundamental image of a
> religion. How do you "defeat" a religion?
Ask the Spanish Inquisition they succeeded several times.
Both in Europe and South America, including parts of the USA that
used to be Mexico.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
Then having made a profit from growing poppy they plant more.
Paying the farmers to plant a food crop instead may work.
Andrew Swallow
Roger Conroy
"Andrew Swallow" <am.sw...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:DdCdnd4B-7p-_BzW...@bt.com...
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
Anyone aware that the Conversos outlasted the Inquistion?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Marranos.html
Arved Sandstrom
>
> <hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:3dbd071f-3576-4768...@b10g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
>
>> When we decimated the country we attacked the residents knew they lost
>> and needed us desperately to survive.
>
> It's Afghanistan, they expect to lose, expect to be decimated, and
> expect their irregular tactics to triumph in the end, as they have done
> for the past 2,000 years.
>
world has pretty much done the same thing for thousands of years too.
The rule of thumb is, if you get attacked and you lose, and there are
many more of you than there are invaders, eventually you assimilate
them, or often enough the invaders leave for other reasons. But since
you retain your ethnic identity, you never actually really lost.
There's this kind of notion that Afghanistan is some kind of unique
place that has resisted invaders for several millennia. They are
certainly not unique in this.
The Afghanis could certainly be conquered in a much more fundamental way
if we were taking about more than transitory military occupations. They
are not immune to whole scale migrations any more than anyone else is.
Except who in their right mind would want to migrate to Afghanistan?
AHS
William Black
"Arved Sandstrom" <dce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Yoegn.66414$Db2.54556@edtnps83...
> There's nothing special about Aghanistan. Much, if not most, of the world
> has pretty much done the same thing for thousands of years too. The rule
> of thumb is, if you get attacked and you lose, and there are many more of
> you than there are invaders, eventually you assimilate them, or often
> enough the invaders leave for other reasons. But since you retain your
> ethnic identity, you never actually really lost.
>
> There's this kind of notion that Afghanistan is some kind of unique place
> that has resisted invaders for several millennia. They are certainly not
> unique in this.
>
> The Afghanis could certainly be conquered in a much more fundamental way
> if we were taking about more than transitory military occupations. They
> are not immune to whole scale migrations any more than anyone else is.
> Except who in their right mind would want to migrate to Afghanistan?
Well yes, except they do seem to have a remarkable ability to throw out
invading armies after a few years without too much help from outside.
Pat Flannery
In the case of the Aztecs and Mayans, they had some help from the
neighboring tribes that the two civilizations used to rip the beating
hearts out of and eat.
Bloody as it was, Spanish Roman Catholicism looked almost benign
compared to what would happen to people who got dragged up to the top of
those pyramids.
In fact, the "Eating Of The God's Body" and self-flagellation aspects of
the Spanish Catholicism of the time gave the native populations
something familiar that they could identify with (blood), and smoothed
the transition to the new religion.
The end result was a religious conversion that was so completely
successful (except for those nagging suspicions that The Holy Spirit may
well resemble a giant blue-feathered flying serpent) that Jesus and the
Holy Virgin reward the peoples of Mexico and Central America by
appearing on their food around once a week. ;-)
Pat
Pat Flannery
>> Ask the Spanish Inquisition they succeeded several times.
>> Both in Europe and South America, including parts of the USA that
>> used to be Mexico.
>>
>> Andrew Swallow
>
> Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
The current Pope used to be the head of it under its modern name, The
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Cardinal Biggles
Pat Flannery
>>> Ask the Spanish Inquisition they succeeded several times.
>>> Both in Europe and South America, including parts of the USA that
>>> used to be Mexico.
>>
>>> Andrew Swallow
>>
>> Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
>
> Anyone aware that the Conversos outlasted the Inquistion?
>
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Marranos.html
There have been suggestions that Columbus may have had some Jewishness
in his background and that his 1492 voyage was a way to get out of Spain
before he ended up in front of the Inquisition, which was acting up at
the time.
Pat
Alexander
The fact that Ferdinand and Isabel didn't have him scourged pretty much
dispels that idiot rumor. Did Black start that rumor?
>
> Pat
>
Pat Flannery
>
> The fact that Ferdinand and Isabel didn't have him scourged pretty much
> dispels that idiot rumor. Did Black start that rumor?
It would help if I knew who "Black" is or was, but this one came up a
few years back:
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history/Ancient_and_Medieval_History/632-1650/Christendom/Expulsion_and_Readmission/The_New_World.shtml
Pat
Roger Conroy
Columbus was Genoese - if there was a serious risk of the SI becoming
interested in him he could simply have not gone to Spain.
Roger Conroy
But the Congregation is not specifically Spanish.
Why, how did the Spanish "branch" get to have a separate identity and
notoriety?
The Inquisition was also active in other countries.
Roger Conroy
> On 2/21/2010 8:40 AM, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> Jack Linthicum wrote:
>> {snip}
>>
>>>
>>> But isn't a country, it's a variation on a fundamental image of a
>>> religion. How do you "defeat" a religion?
>>
>> Ask the Spanish Inquisition they succeeded several times.
>> Both in Europe and South America, including parts of the USA that
>> used to be Mexico.
>
> In the case of the Aztecs and Mayans, they had some help from the
> neighboring tribes that the two civilizations used to rip the beating
> hearts out of and eat.
Snip--------------
I've never heard of canibalism being part of the ritual - do you have a cite
for that?
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> "Pat Flannery" <flan...@daktel.com> wrote in message
Would this do?
Eugene Griessel
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/aztec/cannibalism.html
Eugene L Griessel
There is always an easy solution to every human problem
- neat, plausible and wrong.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -