British Royal Naval Air Service
Mike Potter
> British Royal Naval Air Service
> On April 1, 1918, the Royal Naval Air Service was merged in the Royal
> Air Force. How many Naval squadrons were there before the merger? Were any
> naval pilots the recipients of the Distinguished Flying Cross
> (D.F.C.); the
> Air Force Cross (A.F.C.) and the Air Force Medal (A.F.M.) during WWI
> (1914-1918)?
> Thanks
> Mike
Arthur Roy Brown received the DFC:
http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/brown.htm.
BF Lake
"Mike Potter" <pot...@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:3F63430...@invalid.net...
> Mike Yared wrote:
>
> > British Royal Naval Air Service
> > On April 1, 1918, the Royal Naval Air Service was merged in the Royal
A curious thing was that the RCNAS (ISTR it had an R) was formed later in
WW1, and was a separate service from the RCN, having its own government
minister and terms of service etc. Thus "naval" pilots were not in the
navy! (or army) The RAF was created in 1918 as a separate service from
both the army and navy. (The RCNAS was disbanded at the end of WW1 and the
RCAF was created a few years later, so there was no merge as had happened
with the UK forces)
The question is whether the RNAS was also a separate service and not part
of the RN, the same as it was done in Canada. (AFAIK the RFC was part of
the army---or was it?) If so, it is not quite right to say that the
creation of the Fleet Air Arm as part of the RAF, to replace the RNAS, was
to take away the navy's air component, since (if a separate service) the
navy never did have its own air assets.
Regards,
Barry
John Dallman
wrote:
> A curious thing was that the RCNAS (ISTR it had an R) was formed later
> in WW1, and was a separate service from the RCN, having its own
> government minister and terms of service etc.
Weird! I bet that was the result of a personality clash somewhere. Anyone
know of another country that did it that way?
> The question is whether the RNAS was also a separate service and not
> part of the RN, the same as it was done in Canada.
It wasn't. It was part of the Navy, directed by the Admiralty. It was a
tad expansionist - having created an armoured car group to do rescues of
downed pilots on the western front, that group got some amazing
places, including the Caspian Sea. Reasons for this included the extreme
boringness of fleet service at Scapa Flow, the prevalent naval
technophillia, and Churchill being in charge for a while.
> (AFAIK the RFC was part of the army---or was it?)
It was. The British Army seems to create Corps reasonably regularly to be
in charge of new things.
> If so, it is not quite right to say that the creation of the Fleet Air
> Arm as part of the RAF, to replace the RNAS, was to take away the navy's
> air component, since (if a separate service) the navy never did have its
> own air assets.
However, that wasn't the case, so it's entirely correct to say that the
naval air component was taken away - or rather, put under a command which
wasn't very interested in naval matters or appropriate aircraft, and
organised its forces such that doing naval service wasn't career-
enhancing.
---
John Dallman j...@cix.co.uk
BF Lake
"John Dallman" <j...@cix.co.uk> wrote
snipped
Here's a bit about the short-lived RCNAS
http://www.shearwateraviationmuseum.ns.ca/
Regards,
Barry
Justin Broderick
"Mike Yared" <mya...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:bjtrt2$du8$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> British Royal Naval Air Service
> On April 1, 1918, the Royal Naval Air Service was merged in the Royal
There were 16 RNAS squadrons deployed to the Continent, plus a number of
detached flights in the Med and airship units at home, the numbers of which
I don't know.
> Were any
> naval pilots the recipients of the Distinguished Flying Cross (D.F.C.);
the
> Air Force Cross (A.F.C.) and the Air Force Medal (A.F.M.) during WWI
> (1914-1918)?
Yes, though the DFC etc. originated after the RAF amalgamation. Before that
RNAS officers would be awarded the DSC and ratings the DSM for comparable
actions. After the merger, they would be eligible for the DFC/AFC/AFM. For
instance, Wing Commander/Lt. Colonel Raymond Collishaw had DSO & bar, DSC
and DFC.
See
http://www.theaerodrome.com/medals/gbritain/index.html
--Justin
BF Lake
"Justin Broderick" <justi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:ik19b.3240>
> Yes, though the DFC etc. originated after the RAF amalgamation. Before
that
> RNAS officers would be awarded the DSC and ratings the DSM for comparable
> actions. After the merger, they would be eligible for the DFC/AFC/AFM.
For
> instance, Wing Commander/Lt. Colonel Raymond Collishaw had DSO & bar, DSC
> and DFC.
>
> See
> http://www.theaerodrome.com/medals/gbritain/index.html
also
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/canada/collishaw.html
I remember a TV interview they did with him and he described being able to
see the enemy pilot's face when he killed him, and he gave a sort of eerie
laugh. The guy was a "stone killer "
IIRC something like one third of all RFC were Canadians.
Regards,
Barry
Justin Broderick
"BF Lake" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:YI19b.136349$ho5.2...@news2.telusplanet.net...
>
> http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/canada/collishaw.html
In the photo it looks like Collishaw is wearing a khaki RAF jacket and RAF
wings, with his old RNAS badge on his khaki cap. Apparently mixtures of
RAF, RFC and RNAS rig were common for a year or two after amalgamation.
RNAS uniforms replaced anchors with eagles for cap badges and buttons except
for the (very few) officers who had transferred from the regular RN. The
RNAS also had distinct rank titles and insignia for pilot and observer
officers, the forerunners of the RAF rank titles.
--Justin
BF Lake
>
> In the photo it looks like Collishaw is wearing a khaki RAF jacket and RAF
> wings, with his old RNAS badge on his khaki cap. Apparently mixtures of
> RAF, RFC and RNAS rig were common for a year or two after amalgamation.
>
> RNAS uniforms replaced anchors with eagles for cap badges and buttons
except
> for the (very few) officers who had transferred from the regular RN. The
> RNAS also had distinct rank titles and insignia for pilot and observer
> officers, the forerunners of the RAF rank titles.
There used to be a big debate whether the bird was an albotross or an eagle
with the idea the Navy air types wanted it to be an albotross. ISTR is was
established it is an eagle though.
I am still unclear about whether the RNAS was indeed a separate service from
the RN . Does anybody know for sure? The RN site on the FAA history is
fairly useless. It does say the "Naval Wing" of the RFC was formed in 1912.
So what's the deal with the RNAS and then ? As a separate service it would
be ok to have different rank names etc as it seems they did. Also in WW1,
the Admiralty created the Women's Royal Naval Service , which also had its
own rank names etc. I am not sure that just because it was under the
Admiralty this made it part of the RN.
As previously posted , the RCNAS was a separate service from the RCN during
the time it existed, with its own government minister. You would expect
them to follow British methods in doing that back then.
Regards,
Barry
Peter Skelton
wrote:
The RNAS (sometimes called RNS in early writing) was part of the
RN unitl at least 1916 (the most recent reference I have [1]) and
probably to the end. It was concerned with more than heavier than
aircraft being involved in things like kite balloons and
anti-aircraft as well.
[1] Things to do with the fleet right now. I've nothing about the
WWI equivalent to Coastal Command or airships. Anybody know?
____
Peter Skelton
BF Lake
"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:r99bmvks6a55t865b...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:09:00 GMT, "BF Lake" <nos...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Justin Broderick" <justi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> >I am still unclear about whether the RNAS was indeed a separate service
from
> >the RN . Does anybody know for sure? The RN site on the FAA history is
> >fairly useless. It does say the "Naval Wing" of the RFC was formed in
1912....
> >As previously posted , the RCNAS was a separate service from the RCN
during
> >the time it existed, with its own government minister. You would expect
> >them to follow British methods in doing that back then.
> The RNAS (sometimes called RNS in early writing) was part of the
> RN unitl at least 1916 (the most recent reference I have [1]) and
> probably to the end. It was concerned with more than heavier than
> aircraft being involved in things like kite balloons and
> anti-aircraft as well.
I suspect things are fairly murky. I have a note in the official history
of the CEF in WW1 that "The RFC, formed in 1912, originally consisted of
military and naval wings. Shortly before the war the naval wing became the
Royal Naval Air Service. On 1 April 1918 the RFC and the RNAS were reunited
as the Royal Air Force."
When you join one of the "services" you have "terms of service" that go with
your "entry plan" and come under some Act of Parliament for getting paid,
being under a set of laws different from civilian laws and all sorts of
stuff. When the RCNAS was created (Tucker ref) there was an Act to create
it and a whole structure set up. It was not part of the RCN and when you
joined the RCNAS you were not in the "navy" (ie RCN). I am still not
clear that if you were "in" the RNAS, you were "in" the RN. The RNAS may
have had a Sea Lord who "owned" it? How did that work? What transfer of
"ownership" and "change of terms of service" happened when the ?army's? RFC
(or who "owned" the RFC in 1913) naval wing became the RNAS?
The thing is, when the RFC was created in 1912, what was the structure and
Act and terms etc and how did the "naval wing" be separate from the
"military wing"? If you joined the RFC in 1913 and got put in the naval
wing what Service were you in? (this is nothing to do with operational
command --eg the Air Force Coastal Command people were in the RAF, but could
be under RN operational command for tasking)
Then for real murkiness, you have the reserves. A "reservist" was not in
the RN either! You could join the Wavy Navy with your own terms of service,
have differences in your uniform, but be under the same laws (Articles of
War) as the regulars. So the "navy" is a collection of different outfits in
some ways, but nothing like the army, where the different regiments and
corps etc are almost little Services of their own and there is no "Royal
Army" --but there is an Army Act and an Army HQ equivalent to the Admiralty.
(ISTR in WW2 there was another "navy" outfit for manning the guns in
merchant ships (DEMS) whose personnel were in their own "service" too, not
the navy??)
It was perhaps less murky for USN airmen in the early days since they were
in the USN, but did get to wear green uniforms and brown shoes! There is
also the business of the US Marines being "navy" but a separate Armed
Service. The British Royal Marines are also a funny situation. Was the
RNAS something like the RM in relation to the RN?
Anybody got some clarification on all this re was the RNAS part of the RN or
not?
Thanks,
Barry
Justin Broderick
> There used to be a big debate whether the bird was an albotross or an eagle
> with the idea the Navy air types wanted it to be an albotross. ISTR is was
> established it is an eagle though.
>
I had forgotten about hearing that. It does look rather like it's
gliding, albatross-like.
> I am still unclear about whether the RNAS was indeed a separate service from
> the RN . Does anybody know for sure? The RN site on the FAA history is
> fairly useless. It does say the "Naval Wing" of the RFC was formed in 1912.
> So what's the deal with the RNAS and then ?
The RNAS was separated from the RFC in January 1914.
> As a separate service it would
> be ok to have different rank names etc as it seems they did. Also in WW1,
> the Admiralty created the Women's Royal Naval Service , which also had its
> own rank names etc. I am not sure that just because it was under the
> Admiralty this made it part of the RN.
>
I don't know, either. Certainly the Royal Marines were a separate
service, though also under the Admiralty.
As for the different ranks, I believe this was considered necessary to
indicate the flyers' status. At the time, only "executive" or
"military" branch officers used the regualar rank titles. Engineers
used the "engineer" prefix, and medical and accountant branch officers
were "fleet surgeon," "staff paymaster" and so on. As most RNAS
officers had entered directly, they were not qualified to be in line
to command HM vessels, and so were not -- ahem -- entitled to use the
regular titles.
--Justin
Keith Willshaw
> "BF Lake" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:<0b99b.60$Y67....@news2.telusplanet.net>...
>
>
> > There used to be a big debate whether the bird was an albotross or an
eagle
> > with the idea the Navy air types wanted it to be an albotross. ISTR is
was
> > established it is an eagle though.
> >
>
> I had forgotten about hearing that. It does look rather like it's
> gliding, albatross-like.
>
> > I am still unclear about whether the RNAS was indeed a separate service
from
> > the RN . Does anybody know for sure? The RN site on the FAA history is
> > fairly useless. It does say the "Naval Wing" of the RFC was formed in
1912.
> > So what's the deal with the RNAS and then ?
>
> The RNAS was separated from the RFC in January 1914.
>
Not 'ardly, it didnt exist at the time , it was the Naval Air Organisation
and its training school at Eastchurch that was absorbed into the
RFC along with the Air Battalion of the Royal Engineers.
The Naval Wing was separated from the RFC on July 1st 1914 became
the Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS). All airships in the RFC now came
under the control of the RNAS.
At this time the RNAS had no fixed wing aircraft.
Keith
BF Lake
"Keith Willshaw" <keith@kwillshaw_NoSpam.demon.co.uk> wrote
> > > I am still unclear about whether the RNAS was indeed a separate
service
> from
> > The RNAS was separated from the RFC in January 1914.
> Not 'ardly, it didnt exist at the time , it was the Naval Air Organisation
> and its training school at Eastchurch that was absorbed into the
> RFC along with the Air Battalion of the Royal Engineers.
>
> The Naval Wing was separated from the RFC on July 1st 1914 became
> the Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS). All airships in the RFC now came
> under the control of the RNAS.
Ok I have some history on this which may clear up things somewhat from a
couple of books:
At the request of the PM, Asquith, in Nov 1911, the Advisory Committee on
Aeronautics of the Committee of Imperial Defence studied the role and
organization of "military" aviation. The committee reported in Feb 1912
and a government white paper based on that came out on 11 Apr. The
committee had proposed that an aeronautical service called The Flying Corps
be formed consisting of a Military Wing to be administered by the War Office
and a Naval Wing under control of the Admiralty , a Central flying school,
and an Aircraft Factory at Farnborough. On 13 Apr 1912, the RFC was
constituted by Royal Warrant.
The regulations to govern the new body were promulgated by special Army
Order two days later. The Military Wing was conceived as a supplement to
cavalry reconnaissance and not as a substitute for it. The Naval Wing was
to have a broader range of tasks including aeroplanes and airships armed
with bombs or machine-guns to attack enemy submarines and airships. On 13
May, the Air Battalion of the Royal Engineers formed in 1911 was absorbed
into the new RFC Military Wing
The two wings drifted apart almost immediately. The Naval Wing started to
give primary training at its own Naval flying school at Eastchurch next to
the Royal Aero Club. An Air Department was formed within the Admiralty, the
term "Naval Air Service" was adopted, and the correct name of the
organization vanished from its official letterhead. From the outset naval
ratings wore cap tallies with the name ACTAEON, the ship on whose books they
were borne, rather than that of the RFC. On 23 June 1914, the Admiralty
unilaterally issued regulations which established the Royal Naval Air
Service. The regulations prescribed ranks, uniforms, flying badges, and pay
and provided for direct recruitment into the RNAS, thus making it the
exclusive naval air arm and a separate branch of the navy administered in
much the same manner as the Marines.
The RNAS was "made so" by Admiralty Weekly Orders dated 26 June, 1914. (It
is not clear whether the Air Committee approved this or what??? the king
had to approve the R in RNAS--but he was in the navy! <G>)
I am unclear whether these books are using "branch" and "separate service"
correctly either. This all seems very British! :)
Regards,
Barry