Re: President Apostate? -- Obama & Islam
D. Spencer Hines
Essential Reading
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
May 12, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
The New York Times
President Apostate?
By EDWARD N. LUTTWAK
Chevy Chase, Md.
BARACK OBAMA has emerged as a classic example of charismatic leadership - a
figure upon whom others project their own hopes and desires. The resulting
emotional intensity adds greatly to the more conventional strengths of the
well-organized Obama campaign, and it has certainly sufficed to overcome the
formidable initial advantages of Senator Hillary Clinton.
One danger of such charisma, however, is that it can evoke unrealistic hopes
of what a candidate could actually accomplish in office regardless of his
own personal abilities. Case in point is the oft-made claim that an Obama
presidency would be welcomed by the Muslim world.
This idea often goes hand in hand with the altogether more plausible
argument that Mr. Obama's election would raise America's esteem in Africa -
indeed, he already arouses much enthusiasm in his father's native Kenya and
to a degree elsewhere on the continent.
But it is a mistake to conflate his African identity with his Muslim
heritage. Senator Obama is half African by birth and Africans can
understandably identify with him. In Islam, however, there is no such thing
as a half-Muslim. Like all monotheistic religions, Islam is an exclusive
faith.
As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under
Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as
Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion.
Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother's Christian
background is irrelevant.
Of course, as most Americans understand it, Senator Obama is not a Muslim.
He chose to become a Christian, and indeed has written convincingly to
explain how he arrived at his choice and how important his Christian faith
is to him.
His conversion, however, was a crime in Muslim eyes; it is "irtidad" or
"ridda," usually translated from the Arabic as "apostasy," but with
connotations of rebellion and treason. Indeed, it is the worst of all crimes
that a Muslim can commit, worse than murder (which the victim's family may
choose to forgive).
With few exceptions, the jurists of all Sunni and Shiite schools prescribe
execution for all adults who leave the faith not under duress; the
recommended punishment is beheading at the hands of a cleric, although in
recent years there have been both stonings and hangings. (Some may point to
cases in which lesser punishments were ordered - as with some Egyptian
intellectuals who have been punished for writings that were construed as
apostasy - but those were really instances of supposed heresy, not
explicitly declared apostasy as in Senator Obama's case.)
It is true that the criminal codes in most Muslim countries do not mandate
execution for apostasy (although a law doing exactly that is pending before
Iran's Parliament and in two Malaysian states). But as a practical matter,
in very few Islamic countries do the governments have sufficient authority
to resist demands for the punishment of apostates at the hands of religious
authorities.
For example, in Iran in 1994 the intervention of Pope John Paul II and
others won a Christian convert a last-minute reprieve, but the man was
abducted and killed shortly after his release. Likewise, in 2006 in
Afghanistan, a Christian convert had to be declared insane to prevent his
execution, and he was still forced to flee to Italy.
Because no government is likely to allow the prosecution of a President
Obama - not even those of Iran and Saudi Arabia, the only two countries
where Islamic religious courts dominate over secular law - another provision
of Muslim law is perhaps more relevant: it prohibits punishment for any
Muslim who kills any apostate, and effectively prohibits interference with
such a killing.
At the very least, that would complicate the security planning of state
visits by President Obama to Muslim countries, because the very act of
protecting him would be sinful for Islamic security guards. More broadly,
most citizens of the Islamic world would be horrified by the fact of Senator
Obama's conversion to Christianity once it became widely known - as it
would, no doubt, should he win the White House. This would compromise the
ability of governments in Muslim nations to cooperate with the United States
in the fight against terrorism, as well as American efforts to export
democracy and human rights abroad.
That an Obama presidency would cause such complications in our dealings with
the Islamic world is not likely to be a major factor with American voters,
and the implication is not that it should be. But of all the well-meaning
desires projected on Senator Obama, the hope that he would decisively
improve relations with the world's Muslims is the least realistic.
Edward N. Luttwak, a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International
Studies, is the author of "Strategy: The Logic of War and Peace."
TJ
Thanks for the Article. There are just few points to elaborate.
In shiite system, there are more details about the type of conversion
from and into Islam and other religions and each one has a specific
type of dealing. There is for example, a person who is not originally
a muslim and became a muslim and then changed again to be non-muslim.
There is a case of an original muslim of muslim parents and converted
to be a non-muslim. Each case a specific judgement and regulations in
a shiite system. However, the islamic system is not applied (EVEN in
Iran and Saudi Arabia), thus the least thing done in such cases is
other things that follow such conversion, like for example if the man
was married to a muslim woman then automatically the marriage will
hold to be false and the woman is considered divorced and should be
isolated away (and maybe children as well). Unfortunately I did't
study theology and/or shiite studies in specific schools (or what is
called Hawzah).
Personally, I don't consider Obama a muslim by origin and I myself
don't hear much people around me complain about his supposed
conversion (at least to me, for I don't follow politics in the first
place). The african and the far east communities, unfortunately, got
the last and the weakest wave of Islam, thus the matter of shiites and
sunnis has a weak impact on such people and they do not live in the
same level of culture as people do in the middle east where the core
of events took place in the old days. To tell you one example: a
Bangali man who works here in Kuwait, still thinks that shiite worship
something else other than God (or Allah in Arabic), and this is mainly
because the poor education they received. Unfortunately as well, some
mistakes and some behaviour they follow is reflecting back on all the
islamic communities all around the world, and thus people consider all
of them to be barbaric or the likeness of that.
According to the shiite system as far as I remember, to be married to
a non-muslim woman but who believes in a heavenly-revealed religion
(i.e. Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism) is allowed only as
"temporary marriage" and not a long-term marriage (and the temporary
marriage is a concept that other communities of muslims fight shiites
for and do not agree with at all, though mentioned in the holy book).
While marriage at all is not possible for people of other faiths and
religions. Some other details follow such topics and systems and it
needs a man who studied the law to elaborate fully such points.
However, the point is, Mr Obama's background is not really relevant as
I believe. In here, we understand that people far away from the middle
east and still consider themselves muslims, have different thoughts
and their faith is mixed with their original cultures. The thing to
deal with such situations however, is not by hating or claiming such
people as to be unbelievers or converts, but it is simply a case of
elaborating the true way of teachings and regulations that bound a
person when he announces him/herself to be a muslim, and this is what
the shiite organizations and societies are trying to do (sunnis as
well have such organizations I believe). Such activities at the time
being are taking place in Indonesia for example, and in Nigeria.
I think the only complaints I heard about Mr Obama was about his
comments about Jerusalem, but nothing relevant to his faith in fact.
TJ
J A
We can make the oil ragheads much less important to us, and rapidly deflate
Russian power, by reducing oil demand and knocking down the price of oil.
There are a number of important factors all pointing toward the neccesity
for Manhatten project for energy alternatives.
Domestic drilling offshore etc. will help in oil supply, but not by much,
and only a couple decades out.
"D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:OYPpk.833$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
Vincent
Luttwack is a well known idiot and his bizarre opinion on this issue has
been rejected around the world
as with all BIG LIES its "provocative" but of course that does not mean
"true"
Its just a big provocative lie
Only a person of absolutely no education or understanding or ability to
do research could consider this Big lie "trenchant"
Unless you define trenchant as A REALLY BIG BIG LIE
Vince
here is the reality
Nonsense Detector: Obama and Islam; Orthodoxy of the Apostate; Hagee
and Riskin
http://southjerusalem.com/2008/06/nonsense-detector-obama-and-islam-orthodoxy-of-the-apostate-hagee-and-riskin/
June 3rd, 2008by Gershom Gorenberg · 2 Comments · Judaism and Religion,
Politics and Policy
Gershom Gorenberg
Last month, military historian Edward Luttwack used the pulpit of the
New York Times op-ed page to offer a solution to the American right’s
burning problem: How can Barack Obama be attacked as both a dangerous
Muslim and as the follower of a dangerous black pastor? (As I wrote ,
this is difficult even for those used to believing six impossible things
before breakfast.) Luttwack argued that Obama is really an apostate
Muslim, subject to the death penalty in Islam.
The Times public editor, Clark Hoyt, has now reached the judgment that
the article should never have appeared. Here’s his basic standard:
Op-Ed writers are entitled to emphasize facts that support their
arguments and minimize others that don’t. But they are not entitled to
get the facts wrong or to so mangle them that they present a false picture.
Hoyt interviewed five scholars of Islam; all said Luttwack got the
facts of Islamic law wrong. Luttwack himself presented another scholar’s
analysis - and he, too, gave a thumbs-down, telling Luttwack:
You seem to be describing some anarcho-utopian version of Islamic
legalism, which has never existed, and after the birth of the modern
nation state will never exist.
A similar critique comes from Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na’im, a scholar of
Islamic law teaching at Emory University. In a recently posted response
to Luttwack, he writes:
A strange paradox has emerged whereby Shari’a (the religious law of
Islam) has paradoxically become mythical in its alleged power to
determine the behavior of Muslims everywhere, yet defenseless against
the most fanciful, even outrageous claims and charges.
In other words, Luttwack presented a false construct of Islamic law
that fit his purposes, and claimed that individual Muslims and
Muslim-majority states would follow that construct. Hoyt cites
Luttwack’s defense of himself:
Luttwak said the scholars with whom I spoke were guilty of “gross
misrepresentation” of Islam, which he said they portrayed as “a tolerant
religion of peace;” he called it “intolerant.”
This is pretty much an admission to interpreting Islam to fit his
preconception of the religion being monolithic and hostile to both peace
and dissent. As Luttwack tells it, Obama was really only a vehicle. The
target was Islam. The method - so common in attacking a religion - was
to build a picture of the faith at its most unbending and unjust, and to
assert that any other picture is “misrepresentation.” No matter that
people who practice the religion know of many streams, many opposing
interpretations. Kudos to Hoyt for detecting the nonsense.
> "D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
> news:OYPpk.833$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
>> Provocative & Trenchant...
>>
>> Essential Reading -- DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor
>>
Big lie from Luttwack snipped
La N
"Vincent" <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:kL2qk.135$p72.128@trnddc05...
Nutzoids of the rightwing persuasion like to attach *Islam* to *Obama* to
create the same effectiveness on public perception that was demonstrated by
speaking *9/11* and *Saddam* in the same sentence.
- nilita
Tiger
> Provocative & Trenchant...
>
> Essential Reading
Different take on things. There are 50 reasons not to vote for the guy.
I guess this is 51 on the list...
D. Spencer Hines
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Vincent" <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:kL2qk.135$p72.128@trnddc05...
<baldersnip>
J A
> Luttwack is a well known idiot and his bizarre opinion on this issue has
> been rejected around the world
>
> as with all BIG LIES its "provocative" but of course that does not mean
> "true"
Rushdie(sp?) was under a credible death threat for over a decade for
blasphemy.
A few years ago there was a case from Afghanitan, about a guy who changed
religion from Islam, going to trial and having a potential death sentence.
In Iraq, they get people to do suicide bombing attacks, at least in part, to
act against "infidels" and "apostates" - Shiia, Christians..
Most moslems aren't radical, but there are plenty of radicals, and they
don't seem to be getting any saner or more tolerant.
It may not be the degree of an issue with most Islamic national leaders that
Luttwack is implying, but these people are susceptible to fundmentalists
creating grass roots pressures.
J A
I could care less what the moozies like or dislike, the article is just
information and another reason not to worry about Obama being a secret
moslem who is going to favor them somehow.
"J A" <a...@re.com> wrote in message
news:HbqdnVkh_-DpXjXV...@earthlink.com...
TJ
> I should add, that I don;t see this as a reason to favor McCain.
>
> I could care less what the moozies like or dislike, the article is just
> information and another reason not to worry about Obama being a secret
> moslem who is going to favor them somehow.
>
> "J A" <a...@re.com> wrote in message
>
> news:HbqdnVkh_-DpXjXV...@earthlink.com...
>
>
>
> >news:kL2qk.135$p72.128@trnddc05...
>
> >> Luttwack is a well known idiot and his bizarre opinion on this issue has
> >> been rejected around the world
>
> >> as with all BIG LIES its "provocative" but of course that does not mean
> >> "true"
>
> > Rushdie(sp?) was under a credible death threat for over a decade for
> > blasphemy.
>
> > A few years ago there was a case from Afghanitan, about a guy who changed
> > religion from Islam, going to trial and having a potential death sentence.
>
> > In Iraq, they get people to do suicide bombing attacks, at least in part,
> > to act against "infidels" and "apostates" - Shiia, Christians..
>
> > Most moslems aren't radical, but there are plenty of radicals, and they
> > don't seem to be getting any saner or more tolerant.
>
> > It may not be the degree of an issue with most Islamic national leaders
> > that Luttwack is implying, but these people are susceptible to
> > fundmentalists creating grass roots pressures.
>
> >> Its just a big provocative lie
>
> >> Only a person of absolutely no education or understanding or ability to
> >> do research could consider this Big lie "trenchant"
>
> >> Unless you define trenchant as A REALLY BIG BIG LIE
>
> >> Vince
>
> >> here is the reality
>
> >> Nonsense Detector: Obama and Islam; Orthodoxy of the Apostate; Hagee
> >> and Riskin
>
> >>>news:OYPpk.833$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
> >>>> Provocative & Trenchant...
>
> >>>> Essential Reading -- DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor
>
> >> Big lie from Luttwack snipped
Sorry
just realized that this is "history" thread and not politics thread.
J A
"TJ" <lone...@qualitynet.net> wrote in message
news:0aa9f956-39b5-4836...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
No need to apologize. You gave some actual info and viewpoint - and it IS a
politics thread.
Vincent
only for the brain dead who suck up to BIG LIES
Vince
Vincent
> Pogue Brannigan is posting while drunk again.
More smear from the lover of the BIG LIE
He digs his hands deep into the shit pile
makes a shit ball
and thinks he is hot stuff
but its just shit and he knows it
Vince
La N
Shush! Next you'll be breaking the news to them about Santa Claus and the
Tooth Fairy!
- nilita
D. Spencer Hines
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Vincent" <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:Ow4qk.139$UX.48@trnddc03...
<baldersnip>
tankfixer
You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy Vince ?
--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.
tankfixer
says...
You have to admit, they DO keep thier promises....
John Briggs
>
> Nutzoids of the rightwing persuasion like to attach *Islam* to
> *Obama* to create the same effectiveness on public perception that
> was demonstrated by speaking *9/11* and *Saddam* in the same sentence.
It worked then - and if you look at the opinion polls, it's working now.
--
John Briggs
Jack Linthicum
> In article <iv4qk.138$UX.20@trnddc03>, fire...@firelaw.us says...
Then I would suggest that you vote for whomever you choose and shut
the fuck up about being "convinced". One reason might be the
impending Democratic wave, McCain would be a President with
insufficient Congressional backing to get any of his looney ideas
passed. You don't write like you make more than $250,000.
deem...@aol.com
wrote:
The coming Demo gains in Congress would be a good reason
to vote for McCain.....Rep Prez and Demo Congress.....splits are how
the Fed govt works best.
La N
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Hqcqk.89853$7f3....@newsfe23.ams2...
Obama Muslim Obama Muslim .... *boo*!
(paranoid yanks)
- nilita
La N
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:0f81711a-a140-4e35...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
****************************
I would tend to agree.
Personally, I don't care who gets voted in as POTUS. What bugs me are bogus
reasons that people give for *not* voting for a candidate, which shows
intellectual laziness and paranoia and dishonesty on the parts of some
people. I refer most recently to the so-called Obama-Muslim connection.
- nilita
Fred J. McCall
:
And if you look a little closer in Obama's case, you'll find that it
was the Clinton campaign that invented the tactic during the
Democratic primaries.
--
"Before you embark on a journey of revenge dig two graves."
-- Confucius
deem...@aol.com
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
Or McCain is too old or a war-monger or is a "cad"? (Dems
quoting Nancy Reagan is a real hoot) It comes from both
sides....usually "supporters" of the candidates so any really off the
wall/distasteful claims can be safely kept at a distance. I still say
we haven't seen anything yet....the Muslim crap is just the tip of the
iceberg...the "nigger" sh*t will be popping up soon enough.
La N
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:940d76aa-33a4-4adf...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
****************************
I agree it comes from both sides. In fact, there are more so-called "left
wing loons" in my KF than right wingers. And I've already heard the
"nigger" shit. It frightens me that people talk about the possibility of
Obama being assassinated.
- nilita
Fred J. McCall
:
:"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
:
And the memos have come out of the Clinton campaign that show that
this was precisely their tactic.
The funny thing is that you BDS sufferers are now buying their claims
of 'evil right-wing tactic', despite the memo from her campaign having
gone public.
--
"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
-- Mark Twain
Jack Linthicum
No, no...subtlety. Obama's "judgement", of Obama's "unpredictability",
"trustworthiness", and so forth, all boil down to one phrase: "Obama
is a scary nigger!". That's it.
And he is arrogant, a new way of saying "uppity", plus being elitist.
Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works as
community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral, grandson
of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his class, worked
as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress and Senate,
married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one of the folks.
tankfixer
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net says...
> On Aug 18, 1:01 am, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
> > In article <iv4qk.138$UX.20@trnddc03>, fire...@firelaw.us says...
> >
> > > Tiger wrote:
> > > > D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> > > >> Provocative & Trenchant...
> >
> > > >> Essential Reading
> >
> > > > Different take on things. There are 50 reasons not to vote for the guy.
> > > > I guess this is 51 on the list...
> >
> > > only for the brain dead who suck up to BIG LIES
> >
> > You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
> > All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
> >
> > Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy Vince ?
>
> Then I would suggest that you vote for whomever you choose and shut
> the fuck up about being "convinced".
So there are no reasons to chose one over the other ?
We have some acting like McCain is the only choice and others, like
yourself perhaps who seem to think Obama willl say us from, "something".
> One reason might be the impending Democratic wave,
> McCain would be a President with
> insufficient Congressional backing to get any of his looney ideas
> passed.
That's about the last reason to vote for anyone.
> You don't write like you make more than $250,000.
And in the end you finish with stupid class insults.
Do you think people should have to show some level of income to be
allowed to express an opinion and vote Jack ?
deem...@aol.com
But, but Obama's middle name is Muhammed! He attended a
sharia where he learned to hate America! His wife is ashamed of the
US! Oh, did I forget to tell you he's a Muslim? Not to mention an
uppity nigger? I'm sure he's also a Commie who diddles altar boys
alongside his racist, America-hating minister!
tankfixer
says...
Or the recent spate of "Obama isn't a citizen" spew.
There are plenty of Sen Obama's stands on various issues that one can
disagree with.
Those differences in opinion should be what helps a person decide how to
vote, one way or the other.
La N
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
news:MPG.231322b26...@nntp.earthlink.net...
Well, I agree with you. I know ... the mind boggles ...;)
- nilita
tankfixer
59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net says...
In other words it's racist to question any of Sen Obama's previous or
current stands ?
Is that what you are saying Jack ?
>
> And he is arrogant, a new way of saying "uppity", plus being elitist.
>
> Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
> single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
> prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works as
> community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral, grandson
> of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his class, worked
> as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress and Senate,
> married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one of the folks.
What you have isn't what determines if you are elitist, how you act
does.
tankfixer
says...
Remember it was the Hillary campaign that eased the "N" issue into the
race way back in the winter/early spring.
Jack Linthicum
> In article <db47ee49-773e-4c0c-ace1-4a92239b0f75
> @s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthi...@earthlink.net says...
No, I think that unlike McCain you may actually understand what a
normal level of living is, he said five million would seem to be a
good number. He was joking, but the joke covered his complete
cluelessness on the economy. McCain says he will cut taxes for the
rich (above his "normal level of living") Obama says he will cut taxes
for those who make less than $250K. It is an exhibition of reality.
Jack Linthicum
Hussein
Jack Linthicum
> In article <7Xeqk.8269$%b7.6555@edtnps82>, nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com
> says...
I think you miss the idea, if someone else does something that does
not release you to do that or worse. No, criticize Obama for what you
think are errors in policy. The last I heard skin color wasn't policy.
La N
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
Plenty of people used the N word without her help ....
- nilita
Larry Swain
Of course, what the neocons overlook is that the same "Sharia Law" (a
problematic concept in the first place)says that all babies are born
Muslim, and parents, themselves corrupted, corrupt the young to a
different faith. I. E. Hinesy, Luttwak, and gang are as Muslim as Obama.
Raymond O'Hara
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:67via4lds9gtthd1j...@4ax.com...
> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> :news:Hqcqk.89853$7f3....@newsfe23.ams2...
> :> La N wrote:
> :>>
> :>> Nutzoids of the rightwing persuasion like to attach *Islam* to
> :>> *Obama* to create the same effectiveness on public perception that
> :>> was demonstrated by speaking *9/11* and *Saddam* in the same sentence.
> :>
> :> It worked then - and if you look at the opinion polls, it's working
> now.
> :> --
> :
> :Obama Muslim Obama Muslim .... *boo*!
> :
> :(paranoid yanks)
> :
>
> And the memos have come out of the Clinton campaign that show that
> this was precisely their tactic.
>
> The funny thing is that you BDS sufferers are now buying their claims
> of 'evil right-wing tactic', despite the memo from her campaign having
> gone public.
>
those notes from clinton show that they didn't
funny how you CDS/OBS sufferers can never tell the truth.
Raymond O'Hara
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> :La N wrote:
> :>
> :> Nutzoids of the rightwing persuasion like to attach *Islam* to
> :> *Obama* to create the same effectiveness on public perception that
> :> was demonstrated by speaking *9/11* and *Saddam* in the same sentence.
> :
> :It worked then - and if you look at the opinion polls, it's working now.
> :
>
> And if you look a little closer in Obama's case, you'll find that it
> was the Clinton campaign that invented the tactic during the
> Democratic primaries.
>
>
rejected it.
and the rove led team running mccan't's campaign thought it up on there own
as they've been doing it since before the clinton campaign notes came out
Larry Swain
> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> :news:Hqcqk.89853$7f3....@newsfe23.ams2...
> :> La N wrote:
> :>>
> :>> Nutzoids of the rightwing persuasion like to attach *Islam* to
> :>> *Obama* to create the same effectiveness on public perception that
> :>> was demonstrated by speaking *9/11* and *Saddam* in the same sentence.
> :>
> :> It worked then - and if you look at the opinion polls, it's working now.
> :> --
> :
> :Obama Muslim Obama Muslim .... *boo*!
> :
> :(paranoid yanks)
> :
>
> And the memos have come out of the Clinton campaign that show that
> this was precisely their tactic.
>
> The funny thing is that you BDS sufferers are now buying their claims
> of 'evil right-wing tactic', despite the memo from her campaign having
> gone public.
>
newspapers. Not Keith Olberman. They released it to where they knew it
would be run without actually checking out the story: the conservative
Insight, and then the story was picked up, again without checking out
the facts, by those "fair and balanced" folk at Fox News. CNN bothered
to check out the story and found it to be false.
IE: the Clinton campaign invented the story, and fed it ot where it
would do the most damage and never be checked out, and would continue
one long after disproven: the explicitly and unapologetically neocon
press. Not Clinton's finest hour, but even more so the fault of the
conservative press units more willing to believe than to check out the
facts.
John Briggs
Satire :-)
--
John Briggs
deem...@aol.com
deem...@aol.com
Yay! I thought it was enough over the top that it
didn't need an emoticon.....but with the level of political discourse
these days.......
Raymond O'Hara
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
>>
>> Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
>> single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
>> prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works as
>> community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral, grandson
>> of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his class, worked
>> as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress and Senate,
>> married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one of the folks.
>
> What you have isn't what determines if you are elitist, how you act
> does.
>
what's more elitist than owning 10 homes?
and why would we want one of the elite tro be our leader, the moron bush
has been so effective hasn't he.
William Black
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:27847fc2-7a9c-425e...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
But, but Obama's middle name is Muhammed! He attended a
sharia where he learned to hate America! His wife is ashamed of the
US! Oh, did I forget to tell you he's a Muslim? Not to mention an
uppity nigger? I'm sure he's also a Commie who diddles altar boys
alongside his racist, America-hating minister!
----------------------------
Oh very good, but you really should use a smiley face, some people will
misunderstand...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Tiger
> In article <iv4qk.138$UX.20@trnddc03>, fir...@firelaw.us says...
>
>>Tiger wrote:
>>
>>>D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>>>
>>>>Provocative & Trenchant...
>>>>
>>>>Essential Reading
>>>
>>>Different take on things. There are 50 reasons not to vote for the guy.
>>>I guess this is 51 on the list...
>>>
>>
>>only for the brain dead who suck up to BIG LIES
>>
>
>
>
> You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
> All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
>
> Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy Vince ?
>
Hmmmmmmmmm.............. He can surf? Uh.... doesn't like ABBA. Uh....
sharp dresser. I'm trying, really I 'am.
Tiger
> <deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:940d76aa-33a4-4adf...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 18, 9:16 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>><deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>>news:0f81711a-a140-4e35...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>On Aug 18, 6:56 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
>>wrote:
>>
> wing loons" in my KF than right wingers. And I've already heard the
> "nigger" shit. It frightens me that people talk about the possibility of
> Obama being assassinated.
>
> - nilita
>
>
Yeah I love libs. They love our votes, champion our struggles, pander to
our leaders. The second we play "guess who's coming to dinner," well
they start acting like Bill & Hillary. Obama's problem is not from us on
the right. It's Hillary vote on the left. He has not one them over 100%.
Tiger
> On Aug 18, 9:34 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> No, no...subtlety. Obama's "judgement", of Obama's "unpredictability",
> "trustworthiness", and so forth, all boil down to one phrase: "Obama
> is a scary nigger!". That's it.
Bull. The only people who keep harping on his skin color is him. His
record, cluster of friends, & positions stick.
>
> And he is arrogant, a new way of saying "uppity", plus being elitist.
He's every bit the Ivy league starbucks set. It fits.....
>
> Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
> single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
> prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works as
> community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral, grandson
> of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his class, worked
> as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress and Senate,
> married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one of the folks.
Incomparsion to say Clarence Thomas, Condi or even folks in my circle
he's had things rather easy in life. Sorry just because he's a brother
does not mean I need vote for him. Beyond his persona the guy is lacking
in what it takes to do the job. The Islam thing is a bit of a red
herring. His Church however, does not leave me feeling warm and fuzzy
either. The guy is a "play dough." You can form him into anything you
want him to be.......
Tiger
Bush is not running.....
La N
"Tiger" <Lana_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48A9D695...@hotmail.com...
I think you're right. That Obama's people have to get Hill's on side.
Anyway, Bill is going to be a speaker at the DNC convention. Maybe he'll be
the great uniter.
- nilita, who pretty much understands that most all politicos are tricky,
slimy and crooked (even if they started out with the best of intentions)
and just hopes that whoever gets voted in does a half decent job ....
Tiger
> On Aug 18, 10:08 am, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
>
Ok, folks lets move on. This still a Naval group here. Lets leave the
political stuff till after the Conventions.
La N
Pretty sad when it gets down to the Otis Willie bot being the almost lone
on-topic guy on a naval group ...;p
- nil
Raymond O'Hara
no the 10 home , married to a millionaire, got everywhere because of daddy
and granddy john "the manchurian candidate" mccain is
i like how he "takes on the big corporations". was that during his keating 5
days or when he proposes more tax cuts for them?
Raymond O'Hara
> Jack Linthicum wrote:
>> On Aug 18, 9:34 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> No, no...subtlety. Obama's "judgement", of Obama's "unpredictability",
>> "trustworthiness", and so forth, all boil down to one phrase: "Obama
>> is a scary nigger!". That's it.
>
> Bull. The only people who keep harping on his skin color is him. His
> record, cluster of friends, & positions stick.
>
>
>
>>
>> And he is arrogant, a new way of saying "uppity", plus being elitist.
>
> He's every bit the Ivy league starbucks set. It fits.....
>
george bush went to the ivy league as did his daddy,
Raymond O'Hara
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z4lqk.8288$nu6.5883@edtnps83...
nobody is stopping either of you from starting an on topic thread.
nor forcing you to reply in these.
La N.
wrote:
> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:z4lqk.8288$nu6.5883@edtnps83...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Tiger" <Lana_sa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:48A9DD2F...@hotmail.com...
> >> Jack Linthicum wrote:
> >>> On Aug 18, 10:08 am, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
>
> >> Ok, folks lets move on. This still a Naval group here. Lets leave the
> >> political stuff till after the Conventions.
>
> > Pretty sad when it gets down to the Otis Willie bot being the almost lone
> > on-topic guy on a naval group ...;p
>
> > - nil
>
> nobody is stopping either of you from starting an on topic thread.
> nor forcing you to reply in these
Don't be silly. Why would we do *that*?!
Ray, you are of ill humour these days. Lighten up d00d. Bush isn't
running again!
Having said that, Despite Usenet being an international forum,
unfortunately most of the groups that are still somewhat viable are
being monopolized by off-topic American political debates. I'm as
guilty as anyone in this regard.
- nil
God's Creator!
> In article <iv4qk.138$UX.20@trnddc03>, fir...@firelaw.us says...
>> Tiger wrote:
>>> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>>>> Provocative & Trenchant...
>>>>
>>>> Essential Reading
>>> Different take on things. There are 50 reasons not to vote for the guy.
>>> I guess this is 51 on the list...
>>>
>> only for the brain dead who suck up to BIG LIES
>>
>
>
> You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
> All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
>
> Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy Vince ?
>
Thus Spake: *G* *O* *D* *S* *C* *R* *E* *A* *T* *O* *R*
I don't like Obama, because he never got shot down in a plane!
Being very intelligent is not a requirement for being the president of
the *United States of America* for (2) terms!
But... folks (all over the world) believes he is a fair minded person,
and *they _really_ likes the ugly White/Black BOY* ..
---> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16456639/displaymode/1107/s/2/
DREAMING OF OBAMA , OBAMA, OBAMA, OBAMA... obama?? :-\
---> http://nymag.com/news/politics/21681/
Shucks, anyone could accomplish _any of the things that Obama has
done!
NO!!! He would have to have his a plane shot down, like hundreds of
OTHER patriotic U.S. pilots!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
McCAIN _ALWAYS_ SPEAKS THE TRUTH... (Right or Wrong!)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c&feature=related
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's Creator!
( Well... we all make mistakes... ) :-(
Davej
> fire...@firelaw.us says...
> >
> > You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
> > All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
>
Yeah, he isn't a Republican and he hasn't been in politics for 20+
years.
La N
"Davej" <gal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5ac83e33-7d1c-42e8...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I have officially decided that I would vote for Obama if I were American. I
would vote for Obama because he is getting attacked right, left, backwards
and forwards, and McCain's anti-Obama ads are starting to show the new
Rovian influence. Then there's that swiftboat <cough> author/slash/liar who
recently released Obama Nation.
Because all the attack dogs are out on Obama, they must be scared that he is
going to win.
I'd vote for him. Smear campaigning backfires from my POV.
- nilita
tankfixer
says...
Care to guess which candidate will favor the Navy ?
;')
tankfixer
says...
>
> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> > In article <RCeqk.8266$%b7.1571@edtnps82>, nilita20...@yahoo.com
> > says...
> >>
> >> <deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >> news:0f81711a-a140-4e35...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Aug 18, 6:56 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > In article <iv4qk.138$UX.20@trnddc03>, fire...@firelaw.us says...
> >> >
> >> > > > Tiger wrote:
> >> > > > > D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> >> > > > >> Provocative & Trenchant...
> >> >
> >> > > > >> Essential Reading
> >> >
> >> > > > > Different take on things. There are 50 reasons not to vote for
> >> > > > > the
> >> > > > > guy.
> >> > > > > I guess this is 51 on the list...
> >> >
> >> > > > only for the brain dead who suck up to BIG LIES
> >> >
> >> > > All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and
> >> > > taste
> >> > > Goode with Ketchup.
> >> >
> >> > the fuck up about being "convinced". One reason might be the
> >> > impending Democratic wave, McCain would be a President with
> >> > insufficient Congressional backing to get any of his looney ideas
> >> > passed. You don't write like you make more than $250,000.
> >>
> >>
> >> The coming Demo gains in Congress would be a good reason
> >> to vote for McCain.....Rep Prez and Demo Congress.....splits are how
> >> the Fed govt works best.
> >>
> >> ****************************
> >>
> >> I would tend to agree.
> >>
> >> Personally, I don't care who gets voted in as POTUS. What bugs me are
> >> bogus
> >> reasons that people give for *not* voting for a candidate, which shows
> >> intellectual laziness and paranoia and dishonesty on the parts of some
> >> people. I refer most recently to the so-called Obama-Muslim connection.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > There are plenty of Sen Obama's stands on various issues that one can
> > disagree with.
> > Those differences in opinion should be what helps a person decide how to
> > vote, one way or the other.
> >
>
> Well, I agree with you. I know ... the mind boggles ...;)
>
I'm sorry I disapointed you.. ;')
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.23132373a...@nntp.earthlink.net...
> >>
> >> Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
> >> single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
> >> prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works as
> >> community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral, grandson
> >> of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his class, worked
> >> as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress and Senate,
> >> married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one of the folks.
> >
> > What you have isn't what determines if you are elitist, how you act
> > does.
> >
>
> what's more elitist than owning 10 homes?
You don't get it.
It is how one behave, not what they own.
> and why would we want one of the elite tro be our leader, the moron bush
> has been so effective hasn't he.
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Tiger" <Lana_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:48A9DC11...@hotmail.com...
> > Raymond O'Hara wrote:
> >> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> >> news:MPG.23132373a...@nntp.earthlink.net...
> >>
> >>>>Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
> >>>>single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
> >>>>prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works as
> >>>>community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral, grandson
> >>>>of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his class, worked
> >>>>as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress and Senate,
> >>>>married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one of the folks.
> >>>
> >>>What you have isn't what determines if you are elitist, how you act
> >>>does.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> what's more elitist than owning 10 homes?
> >>
> >> and why would we want one of the elite tro be our leader, the moron bush
> >> has been so effective hasn't he.
> >
> > Bush is not running.....
> >
>
> no the 10 home , married to a millionaire, got everywhere because of daddy
> and granddy john "the manchurian candidate" mccain is
Somebody is full of class envy.
tankfixer
56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net says...
> On Aug 18, 10:14 am, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
> > In article <7Xeqk.8269$%b7.6555@edtnps82>, nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com
> > says...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > >news:940d76aa-33a4-4adf...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Aug 18, 9:16 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >news:0f81711a-a140-4e35...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Aug 18, 6:56 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Aug 18, 1:01 am, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > In article <iv4qk.138$UX.20@trnddc03>, fire...@firelaw.us says...
> >
> > > > > > > Tiger wrote:
> > > > > > > > D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Provocative & Trenchant...
> >
> > > > > > > >> Essential Reading
> >
> > > > > > > > Different take on things. There are 50 reasons not to vote for the
> > > > > > > > guy.
> > > > > > > > I guess this is 51 on the list...
> >
> > > > > > > only for the brain dead who suck up to BIG LIES
> >
> > > > > > You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
> > > > > > All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
> >
> > > > > > Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy Vince ?
> >
> > > > > > Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and
> > > > > > taste
> > > > > > Goode with Ketchup.
> >
> > > > > the fuck up about being "convinced". One reason might be the
> > > > > impending Democratic wave, McCain would be a President with
> > > > > insufficient Congressional backing to get any of his looney ideas
> > > > > passed. You don't write like you make more than $250,000.
> >
> > > > The coming Demo gains in Congress would be a good reason
> > > > to vote for McCain.....Rep Prez and Demo Congress.....splits are how
> > > > the Fed govt works best.
> >
> > > > ****************************
> >
> > > > I would tend to agree.
> >
> > > > Personally, I don't care who gets voted in as POTUS. What bugs me are
> > > > bogus
> > > > reasons that people give for *not* voting for a candidate, which shows
> > > > intellectual laziness and paranoia and dishonesty on the parts of some
> > > > people. I refer most recently to the so-called Obama-Muslim connection.
> >
> >
> > > Or McCain is too old or a war-monger or is a "cad"? (Dems
> > > quoting Nancy Reagan is a real hoot) It comes from both
> > > sides....usually "supporters" of the candidates so any really off the
> > > wall/distasteful claims can be safely kept at a distance. I still say
> > > we haven't seen anything yet....the Muslim crap is just the tip of the
> > > iceberg...the "nigger" sh*t will be popping up soon enough.
> >
> >
> > > I agree it comes from both sides. In fact, there are more so-called "left
> > > wing loons" in my KF than right wingers. And I've already heard the
> > > "nigger" shit. It frightens me that people talk about the possibility of
> > > Obama being assassinated.
> >
> > race way back in the winter/early spring.
>
> I think you miss the idea, if someone else does something that does
> not release you to do that or worse. No, criticize Obama for what you
> think are errors in policy. The last I heard skin color wasn't policy.
Agreed.
My point is most people assume it wsa a right winger in a sheet who
raised the race issue.
It wasn't, unless HRC joined the VRWC and we didn't notice.
tankfixer
says...
>
> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> > In article <7Xeqk.8269$%b7.6555@edtnps82>, nilita20...@yahoo.com
> > says...
> >>
> >> <deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
I'm sure they did.
It was some of her folks who started floating it seriously.
tankfixer
@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, gal...@hotmail.com says...
The first reason is simplistic.
The second is no great endorsement for the hardest job in politics.
tankfixer
says...
He doesn't like ABBA ?
Damn, maybe he is my guy.
Fred J. McCall
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
:> :news:Hqcqk.89853$7f3....@newsfe23.ams2...
:> :> La N wrote:
:> :>>
:> :>> Nutzoids of the rightwing persuasion like to attach *Islam* to
:> :>> *Obama* to create the same effectiveness on public perception that
:> :>> was demonstrated by speaking *9/11* and *Saddam* in the same sentence.
:> :>
:> :> It worked then - and if you look at the opinion polls, it's working now.
:> :> --
:> :
:> :Obama Muslim Obama Muslim .... *boo*!
:> :
:> :(paranoid yanks)
:> :
:>
:> And the memos have come out of the Clinton campaign that show that
:> this was precisely their tactic.
:>
:> The funny thing is that you BDS sufferers are now buying their claims
:> of 'evil right-wing tactic', despite the memo from her campaign having
:> gone public.
:>
:But just where did they release it to? Not the DNC. Not the
:newspapers. Not Keith Olberman. They released it to where they knew it
:would be run without actually checking out the story: the conservative
:Insight, and then the story was picked up, again without checking out
:the facts, by those "fair and balanced" folk at Fox News. CNN bothered
:to check out the story and found it to be false.
:
:IE: the Clinton campaign invented the story, and fed it ot where it
:would do the most damage and never be checked out, and would continue
:one long after disproven: the explicitly and unapologetically neocon
:press. Not Clinton's finest hour, but even more so the fault of the
:conservative press units more willing to believe than to check out the
:facts.
:
Yeah, they're so much worse than CBS and that paragon of virtue, Dan
Rather....
--
"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
-- Mark Twain
Kate
<paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote:
>In article <5ac83e33-7d1c-42e8-a61c-1bf889733e68
>@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, gal...@hotmail.com says...
>> tankfixer wrote:
>> > fire...@firelaw.us says...
>> > >
>> > > You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
>> > > All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
>> >
>> > Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy?
>>
>>
>> Yeah, he isn't a Republican and he hasn't been in politics for 20+
>> years.
>
>The first reason is simplistic.
Says a heck of a lot lately.
>The second is no great endorsement for the hardest job in politics.
Yeah, we all prefer those people who are beholden to a whole bunch of
hidden interests.
He's got common sense, he knows how to put forward an idea, he's not
insane or stupid, he knows economics a whole lot better than McCain
who is planning to outsource the entire subject, he feels personal
responsibility unlike almost all republicans, he understands diplomacy
a whole lot better than McCain, he doesn't think that Bush did a good
job,and he obviously doesn't intend to let the incredibly expensive
useless war go on forever like McCain.
Want a guarentee? - if McCain wins we will continue to have more of
the same problems Bush created and McCain will pretend that everything
that goes wrong was not his fault no matter how obvious it is that it
was. He will continue to flip flop on most issues. Oh, and people will
use him because he's more interested in being the president than doing
the job.
Larry Swain
Indeed they are. Dan Rather so far as we know a) tried to check it out
and make sure it was factual and was assured that it was and b) only did
it once in contrast to your bunch who does it repeatedly and continues
to do it even after it has been proven false.
D. Spencer Hines
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
news:MPG.2313caaf2...@nntp.earthlink.net...
D. Spencer Hines
Obama raised the RACE ISSUE HIMSELF.
Not MCCAIN...
Fred J. McCall
:
So being an inexperienced ideologue is a *plus* in your book?
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
Fred J. McCall
:
:I have officially decided that I would vote for Obama if I were American. I
:and forwards, and McCain's anti-Obama ads are starting to show the new
:Rovian influence. Then there's that swiftboat <cough> author/slash/liar who
:recently released Obama Nation.
:
:Because all the attack dogs are out on Obama, they must be scared that he is
:going to win.
:
:I'd vote for him. Smear campaigning backfires from my POV.
Yet you uncritically accept all the DEMOCRATIC 'smear campaigning'
that you parrot, above.
Why am I not surprised?
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
tankfixer
@ntlworld.com says...
> La N wrote:
> >
> > Nutzoids of the rightwing persuasion like to attach *Islam* to
> > *Obama* to create the same effectiveness on public perception that
> > was demonstrated by speaking *9/11* and *Saddam* in the same sentence.
>
> It worked then - and if you look at the opinion polls, it's working now.
Any excuse in a storm.
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:hptia45jlrv57entg...@4ax.com...
> > "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > :La N wrote:
> > :>
> > :> Nutzoids of the rightwing persuasion like to attach *Islam* to
> > :> *Obama* to create the same effectiveness on public perception that
> > :> was demonstrated by speaking *9/11* and *Saddam* in the same sentence.
> > :
> > :It worked then - and if you look at the opinion polls, it's working now.
> >
> > And if you look a little closer in Obama's case, you'll find that it
> > was the Clinton campaign that invented the tactic during the
> > Democratic primaries.
> >
> >
> and if you were capable of telling the truth you'd have seen Hillary
> rejected it.
You actually believe anything that woman says ?
> and the rove led team running mccan't's campaign thought it up on there own
> as they've been doing it since before the clinton campaign notes came out
River !
tankfixer
cob...@newscene.com says...
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:15:55 -0700, tankfixer
> <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote:
>
> >In article <5ac83e33-7d1c-42e8-a61c-1bf889733e68
> >@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, gal...@hotmail.com says...
> >> tankfixer wrote:
> >> > fire...@firelaw.us says...
> >> > >
> >> > > You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
> >> > > All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
> >> >
> >> > Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy?
> >>
> >>
> >> Yeah, he isn't a Republican and he hasn't been in politics for 20+
> >> years.
> >
> >The first reason is simplistic.
>
> Says a heck of a lot lately.
If you want people to cross over party lines then you have to get away
from insulting them.
>
> >The second is no great endorsement for the hardest job in politics.
>
> Yeah, we all prefer those people who are beholden to a whole bunch of
> hidden interests.
By that measure his service in the Senate has tained him already.
His rapid rise in politics implies some string pulling and hidden
backers.
>
> He's got common sense, he knows how to put forward an idea, he's not
> insane or stupid, he knows economics a whole lot better than McCain
> who is planning to outsource the entire subject, he feels personal
> responsibility unlike almost all republicans, he understands diplomacy
> a whole lot better than McCain, he doesn't think that Bush did a good
> job,and he obviously doesn't intend to let the incredibly expensive
> useless war go on forever like McCain.
I like Obama's stand on personal responsibility it's refressing to see
a Democrat expressing it.
Your painting everyone with a broad brush does you no help in convincing
people to cross over and vote for the man.
Obama's economics seems to be an interesting combination of class envy
and Robin Hoodisms.
As for his diplomacy he has yet to learn when he should speak up and
when to wait his turn.
And the war ?
I suspect many many people will be very upset with Obama a year from now
when little has changed.
You need to actually listen to what he says.
I have heard his talk about withdrawing troops and leaving only those
forces required to protect US interests, train the Iraqi Army and to
chase teroirist elements.
Would someone please tell the good Senator that is exactly what the
troops on teh ground are doing now ?
>
> Want a guarentee? - if McCain wins we will continue to have more of
> the same problems Bush created and McCain will pretend that everything
> that goes wrong was not his fault no matter how obvious it is that it
> was. He will continue to flip flop on most issues. Oh, and people will
> use him because he's more interested in being the president than doing
> the job.
--
Andrew Swallow
> Interesting article.
>
> We can make the oil ragheads much less important to us, and rapidly deflate
> Russian power, by reducing oil demand and knocking down the price of oil.
>
> There are a number of important factors all pointing toward the neccesity
> for Manhatten project for energy alternatives.
>
> Domestic drilling offshore etc. will help in oil supply, but not by much,
> and only a couple decades out.
Trains can be powered by electricity and planes fuelled by hydrogen.
Force cars to do 50 miles to the gallon.
Alternative sources for electricity - coal, wind, solar, wave,
hydro-electric and nuclear power.
Andrew Swallow
Vincent
> J A wrote:
>> Interesting article.
>>
>> We can make the oil ragheads much less important to us, and rapidly
>> deflate Russian power, by reducing oil demand and knocking down the
>> price of oil.
>>
>> There are a number of important factors all pointing toward the
>> neccesity for Manhatten project for energy alternatives.
>>
>> Domestic drilling offshore etc. will help in oil supply, but not by
>> much, and only a couple decades out.
>
> Trains can be powered by electricity and planes fuelled by hydrogen.
I don't think so
Hydrogen has low energy density by volume and requires heavy pressure tanks
Vince
Andrew Swallow
> "Tiger" <Lana_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:48A9DC11...@hotmail.com...
>> Bush is not running.....
>>
>
> no the 10 home , married to a millionaire, got everywhere because of daddy
> and granddy john "the manchurian candidate" mccain is
>
> i like how he "takes on the big corporations". was that during his keating 5
> days or when he proposes more tax cuts for them?
>
Or to punish the firms that tried to save money by not giving him any
campaign contributions.
Andrew Swallow
Fred J. McCall
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
Yeah, right. He was 'assured' of no such thing. In point of fact,
the folks he tried to get to verify it said it couldn't be.
:
:and b) only did it once
:
Yeah, right.
:
:in contrast to your bunch
:
I don't have a 'bunch', you silly shite.
:
:who does it repeatedly and continues
:to do it even after it has been proven false.
:
Swain, I've NEVER seen you manage to deal with reality. Try it once.
You might like it.
Larry Swain
I think you need to review your history.
> :
> :and b) only did it once
> :
>
> Yeah, right.
Proof otherwise? None? Thought so. Typical Freddums. Stick by those
guns, there, Freddo.
> :
> :in contrast to your bunch
> :
>
> I don't have a 'bunch', you silly shite.
Simply because no one would have you.
>
> :
> :who does it repeatedly and continues
> :to do it even after it has been proven false.
> :
>
> Swain, I've NEVER seen you manage to deal with reality. Try it once.
> You might like it.
>
I'd prefer not to deal with your reality, Freddums. I really like the
real world much better.
Fred J. McCall
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> Larry Swain <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
:>
:> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
I think you need to pull your head out and think, which there is no
evidence you ever do.
:> :
:> :and b) only did it once
:> :
:>
:> Yeah, right.
:
:Proof otherwise? None? Thought so. Typical Freddums. Stick by those
:guns, there, Freddo.
:
Poor, stupid Larrums. It thinks that lack of proof is proof of lack.
Isn't it CUTE?
:> :
:> :in contrast to your bunch
:> :
:>
:> I don't have a 'bunch', you silly shite.
:
:Simply because no one would have you.
:
Pathetic, Swain. Haven't you figured out yet that for your stupid
remarks to have any impact I would have to care what you think and I
don't?
:>
:> :
:> :who does it repeatedly and continues
:> :to do it even after it has been proven false.
:> :
:>
:> Swain, I've NEVER seen you manage to deal with reality. Try it once.
:> You might like it.
:>
:
:I'd prefer not to deal with your reality, Freddums. I really like the
:real world much better.
:
How would you know? There's no evidence you have any contact with
"the real world".
D. Spencer Hines
Remember The Hindenburg.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"Vincent" <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:0Qzqk.271$UX.151@trnddc03...
Richard Casady
<am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>planes fuelled by hydrogen.
Actually no. Liquid hydrogen is 5% as dense as water. Even though it
has more energy per pound, it is very expensive to provide the tankage
and then to push all that bulk through the air.
Casady
D. Spencer Hines
reasons.
One of which was that Bush would not grant Rather a CBS interview with the
President.
Rather's producer, a woman who was later fired by CBS, was also a Bush
Hater.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:g1mla411b7l8rq99e...@4ax.com...
D. Spencer Hines
He's a Wannabe Mediaeval Historian.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a2sla4hince5rtj7i...@4ax.com...
Larry Swain
Projecting again, Freddums, best get back on your prescription.
> :> :
> :> :and b) only did it once
> :> :
> :>
> :> Yeah, right.
> :
> :Proof otherwise? None? Thought so. Typical Freddums. Stick by those
> :guns, there, Freddo.
> :
>
> Poor, stupid Larrums. It thinks that lack of proof is proof of lack.
> Isn't it CUTE?
ALl there ever is when you try to think Fred is LACK of anything.........
> :> :
> :> :in contrast to your bunch
> :> :
> :>
> :> I don't have a 'bunch', you silly shite.
> :
> :Simply because no one would have you.
> :
>
> Pathetic, Swain. Haven't you figured out yet that for your stupid
> remarks to have any impact I would have to care what you think and I
> don't?
*YAWN*, yet you keep coming back for more.....
> :>
> :> :
> :> :who does it repeatedly and continues
> :> :to do it even after it has been proven false.
> :> :
> :>
> :> Swain, I've NEVER seen you manage to deal with reality. Try it once.
> :> You might like it.
> :>
> :
> :I'd prefer not to deal with your reality, Freddums. I really like the
> :real world much better.
> :
>
> How would you know? There's no evidence you have any contact with
> "the real world".
>
Only because you don't look for evidence, you just make assumptions.
Larry Swain
> Of COURSE he doesn't have any contact with The Real World...
>
> He's a Wannabe Mediaeval Historian.
What makes one a real medieval historian, there Davey who can't do any
Latin? A degree? (got it), publications in refereed journals (got
them), what makes you a medieval historian or an acute observer of
current events? Cross posting across Usenet? Stop snipping at your
betters Davey.
erilar
to the group you're in. I've cut mine OUT to point this out to the rest
of you.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
God's Creator!
> snipped for readability!!
>
> And the war ?
> I suspect many many people will be very upset with Obama a year from now
> when little has changed.
> You need to actually listen to what he says.
>
> I have heard his talk about withdrawing troops and leaving only those
> forces required to protect US interests, train the Iraqi Army and to
> chase teroirist elements.
> Would someone please tell the good Senator that is exactly what the
> troops on teh ground are doing now
>
>
>
>
Thus Spake: *G* *O* *D* *S* *C* *R* *E* *A* *T* *O* *R*
What many Americans refuse to accept is;
America did not have the final say in VietNam, and neither do they in Iraq.
The Iraqi people wants their sovereignty restored, and will never
cease using some kind of Arab *insurgency* until that happens.
Face it, *The Arabs do not like Israel's-America* , that is the sole reason there
are _NO_ Israeli troop/forces helping America with the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
Ditto, Arab/Muslims/Islamists ...etc...
Obviously, Arabs also know this! ---> http://www.ihr.org/news/040716_hollings.shtml
God's Creator!
( Well, we all make mistakes... ) :-(
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Todays U.S. "Judaism Vs. Islamism Wars" News.
http://www.antiwar.com
Current (DOD) Casualties Report.
http://icasualties.org/oif/BY_DOD.aspx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
tankfixer
am.sw...@btinternet.com says...
He'd never do a thing like that, would he ?
Fred J. McCall
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> Larry Swain <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
:>
:> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :> Larry Swain <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
Projecting again, Larrums, best put down the crack pipe and seek
psychiatric help.
:> :> :
:> :> :and b) only did it once
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Yeah, right.
:> :
:> :Proof otherwise? None? Thought so. Typical Freddums. Stick by those
:> :guns, there, Freddo.
:> :
:>
:> Poor, stupid Larrums. It thinks that lack of proof is proof of lack.
:> Isn't it CUTE?
:
:ALl there ever is when you try to think Fred is LACK of anything.........
:
Great evidence and rebuttal, Larry.........
:> :> :
:> :> :in contrast to your bunch
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> I don't have a 'bunch', you silly shite.
:> :
:> :Simply because no one would have you.
:> :
:>
:> Pathetic, Swain. Haven't you figured out yet that for your stupid
:> remarks to have any impact I would have to care what you think and I
:> don't?
:
:*YAWN*, yet you keep coming back for more.....
:
I don't mind slapping around idiots like you occasionally.
It quickly becomes boring, though.
:> :>
:> :> :
:> :> :who does it repeatedly and continues
:> :> :to do it even after it has been proven false.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Swain, I've NEVER seen you manage to deal with reality. Try it once.
:> :> You might like it.
:> :>
:> :
:> :I'd prefer not to deal with your reality, Freddums. I really like the
:> :real world much better.
:> :
:>
:> How would you know? There's no evidence you have any contact with
:> "the real world".
:>
:Only because you don't look for evidence, you just make assumptions.
I also don't look for the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny. They don't
exist, either....
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
Larry Swain
You seem at your best, Fred, when you ape your betters, as you're doing
here. So pathetic though, can't you come up with your own stuff?
>
> :> :> :
> :> :> :and b) only did it once
> :> :> :
> :> :>
> :> :> Yeah, right.
> :> :
> :> :Proof otherwise? None? Thought so. Typical Freddums. Stick by those
> :> :guns, there, Freddo.
> :> :
> :>
> :> Poor, stupid Larrums. It thinks that lack of proof is proof of lack.
> :> Isn't it CUTE?
> :
> :ALl there ever is when you try to think Fred is LACK of anything.........
> :
>
> Great evidence and rebuttal, Larry.........
Certainly better than anything you've ever come up with.
> :> :> :
> :> :> :in contrast to your bunch
> :> :> :
> :> :>
> :> :> I don't have a 'bunch', you silly shite.
> :> :
> :> :Simply because no one would have you.
> :> :
> :>
> :> Pathetic, Swain. Haven't you figured out yet that for your stupid
> :> remarks to have any impact I would have to care what you think and I
> :> don't?
> :
> :*YAWN*, yet you keep coming back for more.....
> :
>
> I don't mind slapping around idiots like you occasionally.
Is *THAT* what you call it? Most of us around here, including those
who share some of your opinions, label it that Fred is just being his
usual pain in the ass; but if it makes you feel better to call it
something else that it isn't, by all means we won't stand in your way.
We know how fragile your psyche is and how you need to feel good about
yourself.
>
> It quickly becomes boring, though.
Yes, you do.
>
> :> :>
> :> :> :
> :> :> :who does it repeatedly and continues
> :> :> :to do it even after it has been proven false.
> :> :> :
> :> :>
> :> :> Swain, I've NEVER seen you manage to deal with reality. Try it once.
> :> :> You might like it.
> :> :>
> :> :
> :> :I'd prefer not to deal with your reality, Freddums. I really like the
> :> :real world much better.
> :> :
> :>
> :> How would you know? There's no evidence you have any contact with
> :> "the real world".
> :>
> :Only because you don't look for evidence, you just make assumptions.
>
> I also don't look for the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny. They don't
> exist, either....
Rather like your evidence for almost any position you hold....
Have the last word Freddums, I'm sure it'll be good, but less than
substantive. You're too stupid to deal with.
Fred J. McCall
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> Larry Swain <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
:>
:> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :> Larry Swain <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :> :> Larry Swain <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
:> :> :>
:> :> :> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
Like I said, Larry, slapping you around rapidly becomes boring.
:>
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> :and b) only did it once
:> :> :> :
:> :> :>
:> :> :> Yeah, right.
:> :> :
:> :> :Proof otherwise? None? Thought so. Typical Freddums. Stick by those
:> :> :guns, there, Freddo.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Poor, stupid Larrums. It thinks that lack of proof is proof of lack.
:> :> Isn't it CUTE?
:> :
:> :ALl there ever is when you try to think Fred is LACK of anything.........
:> :
:>
:> Great evidence and rebuttal, Larry.........
:
:Certainly better than anything you've ever come up with.
:
I do believe that you believe that, but it's merely a demonstration of
your own self-delusion.
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> :in contrast to your bunch
:> :> :> :
:> :> :>
:> :> :> I don't have a 'bunch', you silly shite.
:> :> :
:> :> :Simply because no one would have you.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Pathetic, Swain. Haven't you figured out yet that for your stupid
:> :> remarks to have any impact I would have to care what you think and I
:> :> don't?
:> :
:> :*YAWN*, yet you keep coming back for more.....
:> :
:>
:> I don't mind slapping around idiots like you occasionally.
:
:Is *THAT* what you call it? Most of us around here, including those
:who share some of your opinions, label it that Fred is just being his
:usual pain in the ass; but if it makes you feel better to call it
:something else that it isn't, by all means we won't stand in your way.
:We know how fragile your psyche is and how you need to feel good about
:yourself.
'We'? You talking to that turd in your pocket again, Larry?
:>
:> It quickly becomes boring, though.
:
:Yes, you do.
You seem at your best, Larry, when you ape your betters, as you're
doing here. So pathetic though, can't you come up with your own
stuff?
:>
:> :> :>
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> :who does it repeatedly and continues
:> :> :> :to do it even after it has been proven false.
:> :> :> :
:> :> :>
:> :> :> Swain, I've NEVER seen you manage to deal with reality. Try it once.
:> :> :> You might like it.
:> :> :>
:> :> :
:> :> :I'd prefer not to deal with your reality, Freddums. I really like the
:> :> :real world much better.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> How would you know? There's no evidence you have any contact with
:> :> "the real world".
:> :>
:> :Only because you don't look for evidence, you just make assumptions.
:>
:> I also don't look for the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny. They don't
:> exist, either....
:
:Rather like your evidence for almost any position you hold....
:
Well, Larry, given that you keep your head too far up your ass for any
sound to penetrate, how would you know?
:Have the last word Freddums, I'm sure it'll be good, but less than
:substantive. You're too stupid to deal with.
Does this sophomoric tactic EVER work for you to get you the last
word, Larry?
Dan
> Rather was simply out to GET Bush, a fellow Texan, whom he despised for many
> reasons.
>
> One of which was that Bush would not grant Rather a CBS interview with the
> President.
>
> Rather's producer, a woman who was later fired by CBS, was also a Bush
> Hater.
Nice projection, guy.
Dan
Andrew Swallow
*Liquid* hydrogen is used to power space rockets since it is both light
and contains lots of energy.
Aircraft (unlike cars) can be fuelled an hour before take off,
significantly reducing the boil off problem.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
> And is VERY dangerous to handle.
>
> Remember The Hindenburg.
So is gasoline, remember millions of car fires.
Ensure that hydrogen vents upwards and, unlike airships, you actually land.
Andrew Swallow
Vincent
OFCS
Alternatively, higher volumetric energy density liquid hydrogen or slush
hydrogen may be used (as in the Space Shuttle). However liquid hydrogen
requires cryogenic storage and boils around 20.268 K (–252.882 °C or
-423.188 °F). Hence, its liquefaction imposes a large energy loss (as
energy is needed cool it down to that temperature). The tanks must also
be well insulated to prevent boil off. Insulation for liquid hydrogen
tanks is usually expensive and delicate. Assuming all of that is
solvable, the density problem remains. Liquid hydrogen has worse energy
density by volume than hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline by
approximately a factor of four. This highlights the density problem for
pure hydrogen: there is actually about 64% more hydrogen in a liter of
gasoline (116 grams hydrogen) than there is in a liter of pure liquid
hydrogen (71 grams hydrogen). The carbon in the gasoline also
contributes to the energy of combustion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage