Royal Navy Marines on sailing ships
Frogwatch
sailing sagas and it seems that nearly all Royal navy ships had a
complement of marines. Currently I am reading "Bounty" and it seems
Bligh did not have any marines.
So, how were these marines recruited? Were they "impressed" as were
seamen?
Could a marine become a sailor and vice versa?
Could a marine ever become a ships officer?
Did the marines normally do any of the working of the ship?
I am simply trying to get an impression of the relationship between
the structure of the marines and that of the sailors they were serving
beside.
Joe Osman
Marines were not impressed, but were recruited in a similar manner
to soldiers. Until 1749 they were in the British Army, not the Royal
Navy. The current Royal Marines date to 1755 and after that date any
needed marines were sent from the nearest Royal Marines depot.
I don't know why any enlisted marine would want to become a
sailor, I believe that their life aboard ship was somewhat better than
the sailors, especially after the Earl St. Vincent began separating
them from the crew as a preventive measure against mutiny right before
the Great Mutinies. After his impressment was over any sailor could
join the marines. One of the purposes of the first British marine
regiment (which was in the British Army), the Duke of York and
Albany's Maritime Regiment of Foot or The Admiral's Regiment was to
train young naval officers and over a dozen of it's officers went on
to become admirals.
Joe Osman
I accidentally posted what I had written so far.
The Captain and Lieutenant of Marines were considered ship's
officers. For instance, when a becalmed RN ship was attacked by small
boats, the Captain of Marines commanded the ship's boats that went out
to fight the enemy craft. In the early days, many Royal Navy officers
kept their British Army marine commisions and one ship's captain
actually served as the Captain of Marines on his own ship.
Even while they were in the British Army, the marines were often
used by the Admiralty to rig ships being brought into service, as the
Admiralty didn't have any sailors except those that belonged to a
ship's company.
Especially before the Earl St. Vincent's separation of marines
from the rest of the crew, the marines often helped work the ship in
any non-nautical capacity just like a landsman. After the Earl, they
performed more guard duty and watch standing.
In some other countries like France and Austria, sailor infantry
corps were started in order to make their "marine equivalents" more
"nautically useful". In Austria, the marines were disbanded in favor
of the Matrosen (sailor) Corps. The current French fusiliers marins
started as a sailor infantry corps.
Throughout their history, I get the impression that the Royal
Marines were more "nautical" then their American cousins. This
continues to this day as the Royal Marines man their own landing
craft. US Marines man landing vehicles (LVTs), but not landing craft.
Joe
Max Richter
only a so called rated vessel was in the Royal Navy sence a real ship.
There were 6 rates:
- the first rates are ships of 100Guns and more
- the second rate 90-98 Guns
- the third rate 64-80 Guns
- the forth rate 40-60 Guns - very small ship of the line and big frigates
-the fifth rate 24-38 Guns frigates
-sixth rates 18-22 Guns sloops and brig-sloops.
These ships required a real or post-captain.
Smaler vessels as the non-rated HMS Bounty are commanded by lieutenants
with an temporary commision as Master and Commander.
Captain Bligh became post-captain after his second journey to transport
the breadfruit to the west indies.
By the way, did you know Bligh was one of very few unfortunate officers
involved in three mutinees in his life.
Now marinedetachments were found normaly only on a rated ship acording
in size to the rate of the ship.
A hundred or more under a major on a first rate threedecker and perhaps
10-20 on a sloop with a ensign.
The duty on board outside the combatarea were guardduty in front of the
captains- or admiralcabins , formalparades when visitors on board or
punishment was administerd.
In combat marines manned the fightingtops in the masts as sharpshooters
or assembled on the quarterdeck to repel boarderers or being the
nucleus of an boardingparty themselves.
Not to forget the guarding of the shipsladders to prevent cowards to
flee down into the hold of the ship.
And there where quite a few amphibian landings to pull off at these times.
Greetings Max
Frogwatch schrieb:
Eugene Griessel
>By the way, did you know Bligh was one of very few unfortunate officers
>involved in three mutinees in his life.
There's an excellent case for four mutinies in Bligh's life.
Eugene L Griessel
Do maths teachers have a lot of problems?
george
Royal Marines are still drafted to HMS Victory
Max Richter
Hallo,
i 扉e heard only of his little problems on the bounty, his unfortunate
involment in the great mutinees and the regretable rum rebellion.
What was his fourth?
Max
Eugene Griessel schrieb:
Brian Sharrock
"Frogwatch" <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1171991765.1...@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> I've read most authors in the Hornblower/Obrien/Lambdin/Woodman
> sailing sagas and it seems that nearly all Royal navy ships had a
> complement of marines. Currently I am reading "Bounty" and it seems
> Bligh did not have any marines.
Bligh's ship 'Bounty' wasn't really a Royal Navy ship; the Royal Society
sponsored an expedition to Taihiti and a small vessel was purchased, renamed
as 'His Majesty's _Armed Vessel_ (HMAV) Bounty. The vessel was rated as a
cutter and _Liuetenant_ Bligh ; who'd been on half-pay as a 'beached' RN
officer - appointed to command the vessel. He was the only commissioned RN
officer on the vessel, the crew of whom were 'Merchant' seamen signing
"Crew's Agreements" and not 'The Articles of War'. Given the status of HMAV
Bounty she didn't qualify for a detachment of 'Marines' - beside given her
small size, there wouldn't have been space for them nor their victuals.
> So, how were these marines recruited? Were they "impressed" as were
> seamen?
No British Army servicemen were _impressed_. Each and every man was a
volunteer.
Officers purchased their commissions while rankers joined for the steady
wages and food.
'Marines' were furnished from a regiment of the British Army - one of the
reasons why you'll see red coats on Marines in those Hollywood films!
> Could a marine become a sailor and vice versa?
Unlikely; a Marine would have signed-up into his Regiment.
> Could a marine ever become a ships officer?
You really need to read something like Lavery's books.
Officers, in those days don't really track across to the modern
comprehension of 'Officers'.
The 'Navy Board' owned the hardware = ships and appointed a (more-or-less)
permanet staff of 'Masters' to the vessel ; Master, Master Carpenter, Master
Cooper; Master Sailmaker etc.
The Admiralty appointed commissioned officers on a as-needs-basis for a
commission.
Roughly the purpose of the Masters was to drive the ship, whilst the
officer's was to 'fight the King's Enemies'. The Navy Board's appointees
made sure the ship got , in good condition, to wherever the 'Sea- Officers'
wished. The crew would be commisioned on a voyage basis to make up the
established numbers - there was no 'continuos service' in those days. The
career path of a Sea-Officer was learn the trade (as a midshipman or
Master's Mate') then 'pass' the examination to Lieutenant which qualified
for a hopeful succesion of appointments as nth Lt on big ships all the way
up to First Lieutenant ... gaining seniority due to death of those higher on
the list and good assesments; then being _posted_ to Captain then upwards
.... .
It's unlikely that a Marine (Officer) would make the change to a Sea-Officer
and undertake an new career- but, it _might_ happen. :)
> Did the marines normally do any of the working of the ship?
> I am simply trying to get an impression of the relationship between
> the structure of the marines and that of the sailors they were serving
> beside.
>
--
Brian
Eugene Griessel
>
>Hallo,
>i ´ve heard only of his little problems on the bounty, his unfortunate
>involment in the great mutinees and the regretable rum rebellion.
>What was his fourth?
The actions of the some of the crew who were put aboard the open boat
by the Bounty mutineers, especially Purcell and Fryer at Surabaja, who
Bligh was obliged to arrest at bayonet point and who were kept as
prisoners to stand trial on arrival in England.
Eugene L Griessel
To succeed in politics it is often necessary
to rise above one's principles.
Arved Sandstrom
news:1171998401....@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 20, 12:16 pm, "Frogwatch" <dboh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> I've read most authors in the Hornblower/Obrien/Lambdin/Woodman
>> sailing sagas and it seems that nearly all Royal navy ships had a
>> complement of marines. Currently I am reading "Bounty" and it seems
>> Bligh did not have any marines.
>> So, how were these marines recruited? Were they "impressed" as were
>> seamen?
>> Could a marine become a sailor and vice versa?
>> Could a marine ever become a ships officer?
>> Did the marines normally do any of the working of the ship?
>> I am simply trying to get an impression of the relationship between
>> the structure of the marines and that of the sailors they were serving
>> beside.
>
> I accidentally posted what I had written so far.
Worth pointing out anyway, Joe, that "Marine" is a sort of a meaningless
concept until you say whose Marines, when and where. Not that you don't know
this.
The USMC still supplies several different kinds of Marines within one Corps,
or has, in its relationship with the Navy. Being disciplinary, very directly
supporting USN vessels, or being amphibious light infantry. But when you
think about it, these are all specialized roles, and it's really
nomenclature as to whether any one of them is truly navy or marine or naval
infantry or whatever. It's more history and organizational tradition.
AHS