President Bush Makes Bold Move In Georgia
D. Spencer Hines
With Grit & Determination.
President Bush certainly hasn't forgotten the Berlin Airlift...
Another important thing he has in common in a historical link with President
Harry S. Truman...
Harry Truman, a Real Democrat -- not one of these current pale, insipid
imitations, such as Pogue Gans.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
J A
And I doubt they're anything like the disorganized mass that got chopped up
in the first Chechan war.
What US ground units do you think we should commit into Georgia?
Do you think we have enough armor in good shape to get in there and deal
with the Russians, who have their whole country as a neighboring safe
enclave, unless we want to attack into Russia itself...
I know you must have thought all this out, so why don't enlighten the rest
of us?
"D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:AHIok.748$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
Earl
> Stalwart!
>
> With Grit & Determination.
>
> President Bush certainly hasn't forgotten the Berlin Airlift...
>
> Another important thing he has in common in a historical link with President
> Harry S. Truman...
>
> Harry Truman, a Real Democrat -- not one of these current pale, insipid
> imitations, such as Pogue Gans.
What a mess! It seems that CVN "Harry S. Truman" will sealift this
humanitarian aid to Georgia. Isn't she now on Mediterranean as a part of
US 6th Fleet?
D. Spencer Hines
role in this Humanitarian Relief to Georgians...
And that may well mean an American Naval Presence in the Black Sea.
Stay Tuned...
Bush is certainly not acting like a lame duck...
D. Spencer Hines
He's NOT waiting for the UN to respond -- that would be FAR too late -- and
Russia has the VETO.
So, the UN is a eunuch in this case.
--
Previously:
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
It appears that the United States Navy is also going to have an important
role in this Humanitarian Relief to Georgians...
And that may well mean an American Naval Presence in the Black Sea.
Stay Tuned...
Bush is certainly not acting like a lame duck...
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
From The Times
August 14, 2008
George Bush squares up to Vladimir Putin over Georgia
Tom Baldwin in Washington
President Bush dispatched US military hardware to the heart of the Caucasus
yesterday and warned Russia that it could be frozen out of international
bodies as punishment for its aggression in Georgia.
In his toughest criticism of Russia since becoming President, Mr Bush
accused it of breaching the provisional ceasefire agreed with Georgia only
24 hours earlier.
He cited intelligence showing that Russian troops had again taken the town
of Gori and could threaten the capital, Tbilisi. He insisted that Moscow
respect the former Soviet republic’s territorial integrity. There were also
reports of Russian-backed militia in South Ossetia looting ethnic Georgian
villages and killing inhabitants.
“To begin to repair the damage to its relations with the United States,
Europe and other nations, and to begin restoring its place in the world,
Russia must keep its word and act to end this crisis,” Mr Bush said.
EXCELLENT! He's NOT waiting for the UN to respond -- that would be FAR too
late -- and Russia has the VETO. So, the UN is a eunuch in this case. --
DSH
The US is in talks with allies about whether to suspend Russia’s membership
of the G8 club of industrialised nations. There is a growing clamour to
block Russia’s membership of the World Trade Organisation and to rescind an
invitation for it to join the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and
Development.
Sounds quite a Good Course to follow. -- DSH
Mr Bush’s statement, delivered in stern tones outside the White House, was
stronger than his cautious comments last week, which reflected the State
Department’s unhappiness with Georgia’s use of force against pro-Russian
separatist rebels in South Ossetia.
Although direct military intervention is not being considered, Pentagon
sources have hinted that a limited number of troops could be deployed to
support what Mr Bush described as a vigorous and continuing humanitarian
mission headed by the US military.
INDEED... A VIGOROUS & CONTINUING Humanitarian Mission -- headed by the
American Armed Forces. Sort of like the BERLIN AIRLIFT -- and in that one
the RUSSIANS BACKED DOWN. -- DSH
The first US air force transport aircraft arrived last night, and the navy
was heading to the Black Sea – which is controlled by Russian warships – to
deliver humanitarian and medical supplies direct to Georgian ports. “We
expect Russia to honour its commitment to let in all forms of humanitarian
assistance,” Mr Bush said.
The NAVY will DELIVER humanitarian and medical supplies DIRECT to Georgian
PORTS. Excellent! And the Russian Navy had better NOT intervene, block or
hinder those DIRECT DELIVERIES in ANY WAY. -- DSH
President Saakashvili of Georgia seized on the announcement to say that
Tbilisi airport and Poti port would be placed under US military control, a
claim the Pentagon swiftly denied.
The GEORGIANS should CONTROL the airport and the port -- without ANY
interference by the RUSSIANS. -- DSH
Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, flew to France last night to
meet President Sarkozy before heading to Tbilisi. Sergei Lavrov, her Russian
counterpart, said that the US must choose between supporting the Georgian
leadership and maintaining a partnership with Russia on international
issues. Dr Rice said: “This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia,
where Russia can threaten its neighbours, occupy a capital, overthrow a
government and get away with it. Things have changed.”
Damned straight they have changed. This is not Hungary in 1956 either. --
DSH
The Georgian President had accused the US of squandering its support among
former Soviet republics. Diplomats say that they have little leverage
against a Kremlin in which the strings are still being pulled by Vladimir
Putin, the former President. The most likely sanctions are those that would
damage Russia’s prestige.
Mr Bush said: “Russia has sought to integrate into the diplomatic,
political, economic and security structures of the 21st century. Now Russia
is putting its aspirations at risk by taking actions in Georgia that are
inconsistent with the principles of those institutions.”
BINGO! -- DSH
David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, said that the EU should reassess
plans for a partnership agreement with Russia. For the time being, measures
being taken have been limited to a US boycott of a Nato meeting with a
Russian delegation and the likely cancellation of a joint naval exercise.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
Vincent Brannigan
> EXCELLENT!
>
> He's NOT waiting for the UN to respond -- that would be FAR too late -- and
> Russia has the VETO.
>
> So, the UN is a eunuch in this case.
The New York Times
August 15, 2008
Russia Vows to Support Two Enclaves, in Retort to Bush
By ELLEN BARRY and C.J. CHIVERS
MOSCOW — President Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia said Thursday that
Russia would act as an international guarantor of the two pro-Russian
enclaves at the center of the crisis with Georgia, and Foreign Minister
Sergey V. Lavrov said that Georgia could “forget about” territorial
integrity because of the war.
Together, the comments offered a sharp retort to President Bush’s
insistence a day earlier that “the sovereign and territorial integrity
of Georgia be respected.”
The Russian rebuke came as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice headed to
the region to work for a settlement and to show support for the Georgian
president, Mikheil Saakashvili.
So much for the "bold move"
now what ?
Vince
D. Spencer Hines
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
US official: Russia damaging Georgian airfields
By ANNE GEARAN and MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writers
WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Thursday he sees no need to
invoke U.S. military force in the war between Russia and Georgia and that
U.S.-Russian relations could suffer for "years to come" if Moscow doesn't
retreat.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice issued another urgent call on Russia to
honor a previously announced cease-fire with Georgia as she was bringing the
formal agreement to Tbilisi to have it signed Friday by the president of
Georgia, a democratic former Soviet republic that is now strongly aligned
with Washington.
French President Nicholas Sarkozy said the documents are "intended to
consolidate the cease-fire."
At the Pentagon, Gates described a broad humanitarian effort for Georgians
displaced or harmed by the fighting. The relief effort is being run by the
U.S. military, but Gates said there isn't any need for U.S. fighting forces
in Georgia.
Our forces had BETTER be appropriately ARMED. -- DSH
He said the Bush administration last year started talks with Russia that
officials hoped would develop a long-term strategic partnership. The idea
was to give a backbone to the U.S. relationship with Russia across military,
diplomatic and economic spheres. But Russia's invasion of Georgia and the
weeklong fighting that followed has called that into question, Gates said.
Damned straight it has. -- DSH
Also Thursday, the administration said it will ignore "bluster" from Russia
about the future of separatist regions at the heart of the conflict.
"The United States of America stands strongly, as the president of France
just said, for the territorial integrity of Georgia," Rice said following a
meeting with French President Nicolas Sarkozy. The French president is
leading Western efforts to coax Russia to fully withdraw its forces from
Georgia.
Russia and Georgia have agreed to a truce but Russian tanks and troops
remain. Rice was heading to the Georgian capital of Tbilisi with the
document and had no plans to visit Moscow.
Russia's foreign minister declared earlier Thursday that the world "can
forget about" Georgia's territorial integrity, strongly suggesting that
Russia could absorb the regions where it has supported separatist movements
in a goad to Georgia since the election there of a strongly pro-American
president.
The Russian SUDETENLAND. As with Czechoslovakia and Nazi Germany, 1938.
OMINOUS PRECEDENT. -- DSH
"I would consider that to be bluster from the foreign minister of Russia,"
White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said. "We will ignore it."
BLUSTER INDEED. IGNORED WITH CONTEMPT. -- DSH
Russia's president met in the Kremlin with the leaders of the separatist
provinces, another signal that Moscow could absorb the regions.
At the State Department, spokesman Robert Wood expressed concern over
reports that Russia is deliberately sabotaging Georgian military
infrastructure.
"We are very concerned about these reports; it is a serious situation," Wood
said.
The facilities were not identified by American officials, who said the U.S.
Embassy in Tbilisi was investigating.
On relief efforts, Wood said more than $2 million in U.S. humanitarian
assistance had been delivered to Georgia and that three convoys had
transported 202 Americans from Georgia to Armenia, the third one carrying 32
Americans.
Explosions were heard near Gori on Thursday as a Russian troop withdrawal
from the strategic city seemed to collapse and a fragile cease-fire appeared
even more shaky.
Meanwhile, the United States poured aid into the Georgian capital of Tbilisi
in a Pentagon mission directly challenging Russia's military moves to retake
territory in the former Soviet republic.
Two aid flights were carrying cots, blankets and medicine for refugees
displaced by the weeklong fighting. The shipment arrived on a C-17 military
plane, an illustration of the close U.S.-Georgia military cooperation that
has angered Russia.
The Bush administration is reeling from the near collapse of its closest
friend among the former Soviet republics, a strategic Black Sea nation that
is an emerging pathway for undeveloped energy reserves and that has worn its
zeal for America and the West as a badge of honor.
As the United States mustered humanitarian aid for Georgia, President Bush
demanded that Russia end all military activity inside its neighbor and
withdraw all troops sent in recent days onto Georgian territory.
EXCELLENT! -- DSH
All this appeared designed to answer criticism that Bush has not done enough
to stand by his 2005 pledge, made from the center of Tbilisi before tens of
thousands of citizens, to "stand with" the people of Georgia.
The president postponed Thursday's planned start of a two-week Texas
vacation for a couple of days to monitor developments.
___
Associated Press writers Jennifer Loven, Lolita C. Baldor, Barry Schweid and
Pauline Jelinek contributed to this report; AP Writer Matthew Lee reported
from Toulon, France.
D. Spencer Hines
Just like Harry TRUMAN in 1947-48.
Good Show.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Bush won't compromise on Georgia sovereignty
Aug 14 10:32 AM US/Eastern
AFP
US President George W. Bush assured leaders of Ukraine and Lithuania on
Thursday that he remains fully committed to "a sovereign, free Georgia and
its territorial integrity," the White House said.
In his conversations with Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus and Ukrainian
President Viktor Yushchenko, Bush stressed US "solidarity" with Georgia in
its conflict with Russia, according to spokeswoman Dana Perino.
"All the leaders stressed the importance of standing by a sovereign, free
Georgia and its territorial integrity, and agreed on the need for Russia to
stop the violence, abide by the ceasefire and withdraw its forces," she
said.
Perino had a brutally dismissive response to reports that Russian Foreign
Minister Sergei Lavrov said the world can "forget about" Georgian
sovereignty, describing it as meaningless "bluster" with no effect on US
policy.
"Our position on Georgia's territorial integrity is not going to change, no
matter what anybody says, and so I would consider that bluster coming from
the foreign minister of Russia, and we will ignore it," she said.
Perino also said it was too soon to be sure that Russia was abiding by its
ceasefire agreement, but told reporters: "We do hope it's trending in the
right direction."
She also warned Russia, whose forces have blockaded the town of Gori, that
"we expect that our humanitarian aid would be allowed to get in by air, land
or sea," but added that she did not know of any instances where it had been
barred.
Vincent Brannigan
> The Plot Thickens...
"I would consider that to be bluster from the foreign minister of Russia,"
White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said. "We will ignore it."
BLUSTER INDEED. IGNORED WITH CONTEMPT. -- DSH
The side with the tanks on the ground is not the "blustering one"
The White House is doing the blustering
Dubya's big mouth got us into this problem, making promises he can't keep
Vince
Vincent Brannigan
> Bush is HANGING TOUGH...
>
> Just like Harry TRUMAN in 1947-48.
>
> Good Show.
No he is talking tough
Big hat
no cattle
Vince
William Black
> Bush is HANGING TOUGH...
He's better be.
His boys just got stuffed and his policy in that part of the world is
smashed into teeny tiny pieces.
Right now all he's got is the bill for the clean-up
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Bert Hyman
news:uiZok.1062$T91.892@trnddc04:
> Dubya's big mouth got us into this problem, making promises he can't
> keep
Isn't it about time to start chanting "NO WAR FOR OIL"?
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | be...@iphouse.com
Vincent Brannigan
> fir...@firelaw.us (Vincent Brannigan) wrote in
> news:uiZok.1062$T91.892@trnddc04:
>
>> Dubya's big mouth got us into this problem, making promises he can't
>> keep
>
> Isn't it about time to start chanting "NO WAR FOR OIL"?
>
Don't worry
Dumb dumb Dubya shot the national bolt in Iraq. It left us Hundreds of
billions in debt, not to mention 4000 dead, and a military that cannot
sustain the current level of deployments.
The "put the war on VISA" approach only last so long
Vince
Tiger
>
> So much for the "bold move"
>
>
> now what ?
>
> Vince
1) Kick Russia out the G8
2) Continued Airlift to Tiblisi, consider arms shipments.
3) Request Turkey allow a Fighter wing be moved to Incirlik to provide
"escort" to transports.
4) Condi continues diplomatic efforts in region.
5) Finish troop transfer of Georgian forces home from Iraq.
6) See how things go in the next 3 days, then re evaluate measures.
D. Spencer Hines
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
How to Stop Putin
By Charles Krauthammer
Thursday, August 14, 2008
The Russia-Georgia cease-fire brokered by France's president is less than
meets the eye. Its terms keep moving as the Russian army keeps moving.
Yes. Medvedev talks and Putin keeps the Red Army moving. -- DSH
Russia has since occupied Gori (appropriately, Stalin's birthplace),
effectively cutting Georgia in two.
The road to the capital, Tbilisi, is open, but apparently Prime Minister
Vladimir Putin has temporarily chosen to seek his objectives through
military pressure and Western acquiescence rather than by naked occupation.
That remains to be seen. -- DSH
His objectives are clear. They go beyond detaching South Ossetia and
Abkhazia from Georgia and absorbing them into Russia. They go beyond
destroying the Georgian army, leaving the country at Russia's mercy.
The real objective is the Finlandization of Georgia through the removal of
President Mikheil Saakashvili and his replacement by a Russian puppet.
Correct. -- DSH
Which explains Putin stopping the Russian army (for now) short of Tbilisi.
What everyone overlooks in the cease-fire terms is that all future steps --
troop withdrawals, territorial arrangements, peacekeeping forces -- will
have to be negotiated between Russia and Georgia.
But Russia says it will not talk to Saakashvili.
Thus regime change becomes the first requirement for any movement on any
front. This will be Putin's refrain in the coming days. He is counting on
Europe to pressure Saakashvili to resign and/or flee to "give peace a
chance."
The Finlandization of Georgia would give Russia control of the
Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which is the only significant westbound route
for Caspian Sea oil and gas that does not go through Russia.
And the United States must PREVENT that from happening. -- DS
Pipelines are the economic lifelines of such former Soviet republics as
Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan that live off energy exports. Moscow would become
master of the Caspian basin.
Subduing Georgia has an additional effect. It warns Russia's former Baltic
and East European satellites what happens if you get too close to the West.
It is the first step to reestablishing Russian hegemony in the region.
Which has always been the goal of Vladimir Putin, former KGB officer. -- DSH
What is to be done? Let's be real. There's nothing to be done militarily.
What we can do is alter Putin's cost-benefit calculations.
We are not without resources. There are a range of measures to be deployed
if Russia does not live up to its cease-fire commitments:
1. Suspend the NATO-Russia Council established in 2002 to help bring Russia
closer to the West. Make clear that dissolution will follow suspension. The
council gives Russia a seat at the NATO table. Message: Invading neighboring
democracies forfeits the seat.
2. Bar Russian entry to the World Trade Organization.
3. Dissolve the G-8. Putin's dictatorship long made Russia's presence in
this group of industrial democracies a farce, but no one wanted to upset the
bear by expelling it. No need to. The seven democracies simply withdraw.
(And if Italy's Silvio Berlusconi, who has been sympathetic to Putin's
Georgia adventure, wants to stay, he can have an annual G-2 dinner with
Putin.)
Then immediately announce the reconstitution of the original G-7.
4. Announce a U.S.-European boycott of the 2014 Winter Olympics at Sochi. To
do otherwise would be obscene. Sochi is 15 miles from Abkhazia, the other
Georgian province just invaded by Russia. The Games will become a riveting
contest between the Russian, Belarusan and Jamaican bobsled teams.
All of these steps (except dissolution of the G-8, which should be
irreversible) would be subject to reconsideration depending upon Russian
action -- most importantly and minimally, its withdrawal of troops from
Georgia proper to South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
The most crucial and unconditional measure, however, is this: Reaffirm
support for the Saakashvili government and declare that its removal by the
Russians would lead to recognition of a government-in-exile. This would
instantly be understood as providing us the legal basis for supplying and
supporting a Georgian resistance to any Russian-installed regime.
Charlie Wilson's War. -- DSH
President Bush could cash in on his close personal relationship with Putin
by sending him a copy of the highly entertaining (and highly fictionalized)
film "Charlie Wilson's War" to remind Vlad of our capacity to make Russia
bleed. Putin would need no reminders of the Georgians' capacity and long
history of doing likewise to invaders.
Bush needs to make up for his mini-Katrina moment when he lingered in
Beijing yukking it up with our beach volleyball team while Putin flew to
North Ossetia to direct the invasion of a neighboring country. Bush is
dispatching Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to France and Georgia. Not a
moment too soon. Her task must be to present these sanctions, get European
agreement on as many as possible and begin imposing them, calibrated to
Russian behavior. And most important of all, to prevent any Euro-wobbliness
on the survival of Georgia's democratically elected government.
We have cards. We should play them. Much is at stake.
D. Spencer Hines
How to Stop Putin
Correct. -- DSH
And the United States must PREVENT that from happening. -- DSH
D. Spencer Hines
Then, gasoline at $5.00/gallon.
Great Political Theater...
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"The Finlandization of Georgia would give Russia control of the
Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which is the only significant westbound route
for Caspian Sea oil and gas that does not go through Russia."
And the United States must PREVENT that from happening. -- DSH
"Pipelines are the economic lifelines of such former Soviet republics as
Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan that live off energy exports. Moscow would become
master of the Caspian basin."
Charles Krauthammer
D. Spencer Hines
Congress should come back from vacation, get off their arses and pass
legislation to MAKE IT SO....
Trained Troops won't appear overnight.
Congress ALSO needs to pass an ENERGY BILL.
Adelante, burros!
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
Raymond O'Hara
"Tiger" <Lana_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48A4665E...@hotmail.com...
Naval assets on the Black Sea would be ducks in a barrel.
turkey isn't about to allow us to use it as a base to fight russia over
georgia.
D. Spencer Hines
The United States Navy can be a credible Force In Being in the Black Sea.
Also, the screed below is:
A Good Argument for...
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"Raymond O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tLadnSrru9Z_8TnV...@rcn.net...
D. Spencer Hines
am...@hotmail.com
> Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>
> > So much for the "bold move"
>
> > now what ?
>
> > Vince
>
> 1) Kick Russia out the G8
Can be done but this will just close one of the existing channels of
communication without doing Russia any real harm.
> 2) Continued Airlift to Tiblisi, consider arms shipments.
IIRC, we already armed them once.
> 3) Request Turkey allow a Fighter wing be moved to Incirlik to provide
> "escort" to transports.
Did Russians try to block these transports?
What you are proposing would mean escalation of a conflict and the 1st
probable result will be a successful Russian hit on a pipeline managed
by BP.
> 4) Condi continues diplomatic efforts in region.
Condi does zilch in the terms of diplomacy (as in 'trying to talk to
all sides'). The only thing that she is doing so far is throwing US
weight behind our protege and repeating stupidities like 'this is not
1968'. AFAIK, the Russians are referencing to a much more recent
event: Kosovo and our administration has nothing meaningful to answer
because what happens now was predicted when we broke all UN rules and
acknowledged Kosovo independence.
> 5) Finish troop transfer of Georgian forces home from Iraq.
Yeah, sure. 2000 Georgian soldiers will make a lot of difference.
> 6) See how things go in the next 3 days, then re evaluate measures.
It will gradually calm down because if the Russian had a serious
intention to conquer Georgia (to which end?) it would already be
done.
OTOH, it is difficult to figure out how US, Georgia, <whoever> will
manage to bring South Osetia and Abkhazia back under Georgian control
after this little Saakashvili's adventure. There was no love lost
between the locals and Georgians before it (and, AFAIK, at least
Abkhazians hated Georgians even during the Soviet times) and now
things went from bad to worse.
Bert Hyman
news:0f3867ff-facd-4c15...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com:
> On Aug 14, 1:07˙pm, Tiger <Lana_sa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>>
>> > So much for the "bold move"
>>
>> > now what ?
>>
>> > Vince
>>
>> 1) Kick Russia out the G8
>
> Can be done but this will just close one of the existing channels of
> communication without doing Russia any real harm.
Why? They'll still be sitting like a rotting tree stump in the UN,
won't they?
am...@hotmail.com
> Bert Hyman wrote:
> > fire...@firelaw.us (Vincent Brannigan) wrote in
Well, of course rebuilding and rearming Georgia will be relatively
small potato but an idea that as a 'retalliation' we should speedily
accept Ukraine into NATO will most probably end up REALLY costly (with
a need to keep a nation of 40-50M people fed, dressed, heated,
rearmed, etc.).
William Black
> Nonsense...
>
> The United States Navy can be a credible Force In Being in the Black Sea.
>
> Also, the screed below is:
>
> A Good Argument for...
>
> AIRCRAFT CARRIERS.
Tell us all how they'll transit the Bosporus.
Carl Alex Friis Nielsen
news:6dd3a93d-da96-4c68...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Well, of course rebuilding and rearming Georgia will be relatively
> small potato but an idea that as a 'retalliation' we should speedily
> accept Ukraine into NATO will most probably end up REALLY costly (with
> a need to keep a nation of 40-50M people fed, dressed, heated,
> rearmed, etc.).
Does anybody really expect it would be possible to get all the NATO members,
who heavily depend
on Russian oil and natural gas, to agree to this ?
Carl Alex Friis Nielsen,
Love me ! - Take me as I think I am
D. Spencer Hines
UKRAINE...
After all, he tried to poison President Viktor Andriyovych Yushchenko with
DIOXIN.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Keep All This In Mind:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin>
"His mother, Maria Ivanovna, was a factory worker and his father, Vladimir
Spiridonovich Putin, was conscripted into the Soviet Navy, where he served
in the submarine fleet in the early 1930s."
"His father subsequently served with the NKVD in a sabotage group during the
Second World War. Two elder brothers were born in the mid-1930s; one died
within a few months of birth; the second succumbed to diphtheria during the
siege of Leningrad. His paternal grandfather, Spiridon Putin, had been
Vladimir Lenin's and Joseph Stalin's personal cook."
John Briggs
> "D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
> news:d8_ok.778$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
>> Nonsense...
>>
>> The United States Navy can be a credible Force In Being in the Black
>> Sea.
>>
>> Also, the screed below is:
>>
>> A Good Argument for...
>>
>> AIRCRAFT CARRIERS.
>
> Tell us all how they'll transit the Bosporus.
You can do it if you call them "through-deck cruisers"...
--
John Briggs
am...@hotmail.com
> a...@hotmail.com () wrote innews:0f3867ff-facd-4c15...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Aug 14, 1:07ÿpm, Tiger <Lana_sa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>
> >> > So much for the "bold move"
>
> >> > now what ?
>
> >> > Vince
>
> >> 1) Kick Russia out the G8
>
> > Can be done but this will just close one of the existing channels of
> > communication without doing Russia any real harm.
>
> Why? They'll still be sitting like a rotting tree stump in the UN,
> won't they?
Can't tell about tree stump part but this is exactly the point.
D. Spencer Hines
support humanitarian and medical operations in Georgia.
THINK!
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
am...@hotmail.com
> <a...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:6dd3a93d-da96-4c68...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Well, of course rebuilding and rearming Georgia will be relatively
> > small potato but an idea that as a 'retalliation' we should speedily
> > accept Ukraine into NATO will most probably end up REALLY costly (with
> > a need to keep a nation of 40-50M people fed, dressed, heated,
> > rearmed, etc.).
>
> Does anybody really expect it would be possible to get all the NATO members,
> who heavily depend
> on Russian oil and natural gas, to agree to this ?
Personally, I don't think so but you never can tell for sure. Last
time (in April?) discussion of Nato membership was postponed till
December (?). I'd expect that our administration will try to use
present situation to try to push deal through. Not sure what sense
these movements make besides extending our obligations and
dependencies beyond safe limit.
am...@hotmail.com
> Nonsense...
>
> The United States Navy can be a credible Force In Being in the Black Sea.
The obvious question is to which end? AFAIK, nobody except for
Saakashvili (who recently declared that the US is taking control of
the Georgian ports and airfields) is seriously expects or wants this
conflict growing into a direct military confrontation between the US
and Russia.
So what exactly this 'credible Force' will be doing?
PaPaPeng
The last time Russia shut off the gas over a price dispute Ukraine
hijacked gas meant for Europe from the gas pipeline dedicated to
Russia Europe but transiting Ukraine territory. Ukraine had to yield.
With arm twisting from the EU (and probably hidden subsidies).
The events in Georgia is a distinct warning to NATO and in particular
to Ukraine and other former Soviet satellites that border Russia not
to move any closer to NATO or stationing US. First is Russia will
assert her rights to security with arms. Russia is nuclear armed in
case anyone advocates getting tough with Russia. The second is any
move by EU or NATO against Russian concerns will mean the loss of
around 30 percent of the EU's energy supplies. The most logical
alternative gas supplier to the EU is Iran and a combination of Arab
states. Don't confuse and mislead yourselves about Democracy,
international law (according to your own rules), rule of law, human
rights, etc. There is probably a two year window, between Bush's
dying days and bringing up to speed the new US President, where Russia
holds all the cards.
William Black
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:_F_ok.26357$iQ2....@newsfe14.ams2...
Does the US have any?
We do, but they haven't any fighter aircraft, only ground attack aircraft.
Didn't you just know that the whole 'we cannot see a situation where we will
not be operating under a US carrier umbrella' idea was going to end in
tears...
William Black
> American aircraft carriers don't necessarily HAVE to be in the Black Sea
> to support humanitarian and medical operations in Georgia.
No.
But if they stay in the Med they need overfly permission.
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>
> news:_F_ok.26357$iQ2....@newsfe14.ams2...
>
> > William Black wrote:
> >>news:d8_ok.778$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
> >>> Nonsense...
>
> >>> The United States Navy can be a credible Force In Being in the Black
> >>> Sea. Also, the screed below is:
>
> >>> A Good Argument for...
>
> >>> AIRCRAFT CARRIERS.
>
> >> Tell us all how they'll transit the Bosporus.
>
> > You can do it if you call them "through-deck cruisers"...
>
> Does the US have any?
>
> We do, but they haven't any fighter aircraft, only ground attack aircraft.
>
> Didn't you just know that the whole 'we cannot see a situation where we will
> not be operating under a US carrier umbrella' idea was going to end in
> tears...
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.
Displacement max is 15k T, IIRC
La N
<am...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0f3867ff-facd-4c15...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 14, 1:07 pm, Tiger <Lana_sa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>
> > So much for the "bold move"
>
> > now what ?
>
> > Vince
>
> 1) Kick Russia out the G8
Can be done but this will just close one of the existing channels of
communication without doing Russia any real harm.
****************************************
"Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" comes to mind.
- nilita
george
> 1) Kick Russia out the G8
> 2) Continued Airlift to Tiblisi, consider arms shipments.
> 3) Request Turkey allow a Fighter wing be moved to Incirlik to provide
> "escort" to transports.
> 4) Condi continues diplomatic efforts in region.
> 5) Finish troop transfer of Georgian forces home from Iraq.
> 6) See how things go in the next 3 days, then re evaluate measures.
I don't see where you've included time to write the suicide note.
Russia, though it might have eluded your noble research, is capable of
defending herself against larger encroachments than Georgian troops.
Bush is making noises without any backup
John Briggs
Incredible things?
--
John Briggs
Earl
> Vincent Brannigan wrote:
> 1) Kick Russia out the G8
Exactly! Also Russkies can forget about WTO entry.
> 2) Continued Airlift to Tiblisi, consider arms shipments.
Good point! ATGMs and SAMs first!
> 3) Request Turkey allow a Fighter wing be moved to Incirlik to provide
> "escort" to transports.
I am not sure Turkey would like to be involved in US clashes with
Russia. That is why presence of US carriers on the Black Sea is so
important.
> 4) Condi continues diplomatic efforts in region.
OK but it won't create any new breakthroughs in peace agreement. Maybe
more EU backing for US anti-Russian moves is her range.
> 5) Finish troop transfer of Georgian forces home from Iraq.
Actually done!
> 6) See how things go in the next 3 days, then re evaluate measures.
There is need for longer term strategy against stupid Russian rulers...
William Black
"Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:g826qc$gv1$1...@aioe.org...
> I am not sure Turkey would like to be involved in US clashes with Russia.
> That is why presence of US carriers on the Black Sea is so important.
How do you get them there?
Over land?
Earl
> "Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:g826qc$gv1$1...@aioe.org...
>
>> I am not sure Turkey would like to be involved in US clashes with Russia.
>> That is why presence of US carriers on the Black Sea is so important.
>
> How do you get them there?
>
> Over land?
Over Bosporus. Turkey could agree on that because it is much "lighter"
move than agree on stationing USAF combat planes engaged in battle-like
mission on Turkish soil.
J A
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g81vbc$5im$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> "D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
> news:wT_ok.782$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
>> American aircraft carriers don't necessarily HAVE to be in the Black Sea
>> to support humanitarian and medical operations in Georgia.
>
> No.
>
> But if they stay in the Med they need overfly permission.
US aircraft could operate out of Iraq, but would need Iraqi and turkish
J A
> Bush is HANGING TOUGH...
>
> Just like Harry TRUMAN in 1947-48.
Yawn. Hines shines his 4 watt bulb on the latest rebounding debacle to fall
into his favorite chimp's lap.
We probably should be ignoring the dancing, and trying to detect the tunes
coming out of organ-grinder Cheney's black box.
Anyway, they didn't have nukes in 47-48 - we did.
This situation is about conventional warfare in their backyard, where, if it
did come to combat, they would have their whole country as a neighboring
safe enclave.
Unless, we want to invade Russia..... in which case we had better have a
draft rignt now, because we're looking at 10s or 100s of thousands of KIAs.
Putin very much wants to secure his "near abroad". Russians used to like
Georgia and now seriously resent its cosying to the west.
Humiliating the US and showing that it can be stood up to, is very much in
the Russian interest, in showing who's boss in the russian near abroad
regions.
I think they've carefully picked their time, place, and chimp.
>
> Good Show.
> --
> DSH
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> Vires et Honor
>
> Bush won't compromise on Georgia sovereignty
>
> Aug 14 10:32 AM US/Eastern
> AFP
>
> US President George W. Bush assured leaders of Ukraine and Lithuania on
> Thursday that he remains fully committed to "a sovereign, free Georgia and
> its territorial integrity," the White House said.
>
> In his conversations with Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus and
> Ukrainian
> President Viktor Yushchenko, Bush stressed US "solidarity" with Georgia in
> its conflict with Russia, according to spokeswoman Dana Perino.
>
> "All the leaders stressed the importance of standing by a sovereign, free
> Georgia and its territorial integrity, and agreed on the need for Russia
> to
> stop the violence, abide by the ceasefire and withdraw its forces," she
> said.
>
> Perino had a brutally dismissive response to reports that Russian Foreign
> Minister Sergei Lavrov said the world can "forget about" Georgian
> sovereignty, describing it as meaningless "bluster" with no effect on US
> policy.
>
> "Our position on Georgia's territorial integrity is not going to change,
> no
> matter what anybody says, and so I would consider that bluster coming from
> the foreign minister of Russia, and we will ignore it," she said.
>
> Perino also said it was too soon to be sure that Russia was abiding by its
> ceasefire agreement, but told reporters: "We do hope it's trending in the
> right direction."
>
> She also warned Russia, whose forces have blockaded the town of Gori, that
> "we expect that our humanitarian aid would be allowed to get in by air,
> land
> or sea," but added that she did not know of any instances where it had
> been
> barred.
>
J A
> Nonsense...
>
> The United States Navy can be a credible Force In Being in the Black Sea.
>
> Also, the screed below is:
>
> A Good Argument for...
>
> AIRCRAFT CARRIERS.
Putin looked deep into George Bush's eyes, and saw a dimwitted, tough
talking, arrogant pseudo-cowboy, who can't ride a horse.
Exposing carriers in a bathtub to waves of land based aircraft and missiles?
Allowing them to be trapped in there, by a closing of the straits?
I think Putin is going to push this thing as an opportunty to humiliate the
arrogant US. He may keep troops in Georgia just to do that, when he
otherwise would have pulled them back.
As for the G-8, and NATO etc., they saw Putin turn off Ukraine's gas, winter
is coming... he can also suspend Russian oil sales and casue worldwide oil
market turmoil.
Bush destroyed his own opportunity for a good outcome in Iraq. It's
possible he'll be just as stupid and destructive of US interests in this
situation.
This is what we get from electing ignorant fat mouth phonies.
Maybe the belligerent chimp can have Karl Rove spread nasty rumors about
Putin.... at least that's something they know how to do.
William Black
"Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:g82aur$846$1...@aioe.org...
It isn't Turkey's decision to make.
The straits are governed by something called 'The Montreux Convention'.
Nothing over 15,000 tons, no more than 30,000 tons at any one time, no
weapons over 8" diameter, no more than one capital ship at a time in the
straits.
William Black
"J A" <a...@re.com> wrote in message
news:oomdnQbBiP6kLTnV...@earthlink.com...
>
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:g81vbc$5im$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>> "D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
>> news:wT_ok.782$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
>>> American aircraft carriers don't necessarily HAVE to be in the Black Sea
>>> to support humanitarian and medical operations in Georgia.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> But if they stay in the Med they need overfly permission.
>
> US aircraft could operate out of Iraq, but would need Iraqi and turkish
> permission.
>
Iraq will, of course, do exactly as the US tells them.
I doubt Turkey would. Russia would see it as direct intervention in their
affairs.
Earl
> "Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:g82aur$846$1...@aioe.org...
>> William Black pisze:
>>> "Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:g826qc$gv1$1...@aioe.org...
>>>
>>>> I am not sure Turkey would like to be involved in US clashes with
>>>> Russia. That is why presence of US carriers on the Black Sea is so
>>>> important.
>>> How do you get them there?
>>>
>>> Over land?
>> Over Bosporus. Turkey could agree on that because it is much "lighter"
>> move than agree on stationing USAF combat planes engaged in battle-like
>> mission on Turkish soil.
>
> It isn't Turkey's decision to make.
>
> The straits are governed by something called 'The Montreux Convention'.
>
> Nothing over 15,000 tons, no more than 30,000 tons at any one time, no
> weapons over 8" diameter, no more than one capital ship at a time in the
> straits.
Not true!
How was it possible for Soviets to transit Kuznetsov and Kiev-class
carriers there???
J A
>
> "J A" <a...@re.com> wrote in message
> news:oomdnQbBiP6kLTnV...@earthlink.com...
>>
>> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:g81vbc$5im$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>
>>> "D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
>>> news:wT_ok.782$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
>>>> American aircraft carriers don't necessarily HAVE to be in the Black
>>>> Sea
>>>> to support humanitarian and medical operations in Georgia.
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> But if they stay in the Med they need overfly permission.
>>
>> US aircraft could operate out of Iraq, but would need Iraqi and turkish
>> permission.
>>
>
> Iraq will, of course, do exactly as the US tells them.
Im not so sure.
They've said they won't permit an attack on Iran based from Iraq.
Maybe that's just talk. However, you have to wonder why they would open
themselves to attacks from Russia, if the US did use Iraq for basing
attacks.
>
> I doubt Turkey would. Russia would see it as direct intervention in their
> affairs.
Right. Either overflight or basing.
D. Spencer Hines
First time I've heard him use it.
Good Lad...
But I beat him to it. <g>
Vince
wrote:
> "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in messagenews:d8_ok.778$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
>
> > Nonsense...
>
> > The United States Navy can be a credible Force In Being in the Black Sea.
>
> > Also, the screed below is:
>
> > A Good Argument for...
>
> > AIRCRAFT CARRIERS.
>
There will be huge endless loud neo-con talk to cover the fact that
they can take absolutely no action.
1) Sending any aircraft carriers to the Black Sea would be a specific
violation of the Montreux convention
2) even surface ships are very limited in Black sea passages.
3) Russia is a huge energy exporter, who has not hesitated to use both
energy money and the fuel itself to keep opponents in line
Bottom line
Dumb Dumb Dubya put himself out on a limb and then sawed it off.
The big hat no cattle boy made promises he coudl not keep and then his
staff was asleep at the switch while he played in Bejing
Vince
J A
> Charles Krauthammer used the BERLIN AIRLIFT Analogy today.
>
> First time I've heard him use it.
>
> Good Lad...
>
> But I beat him to it. <g>
Two words: atom bomb.
Can you figure out why I'm using those words? ;-))
Fred J. McCall
:William Black pisze:
:
Turkey can't agree to that because it would leave Turkey in violation
of an international treaty, the Montreux Convention of 1936.
--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer
Fred J. McCall
:William Black pisze:
:
Yeah, true. The rules are somewhat different for "Black Sea powers"
(Russia, Bulgaria, and Rumania).
:
:How was it possible for Soviets to transit Kuznetsov and Kiev-class
:carriers there???
:
They called them cruisers and transited them under the Black Sea
powers exemption for capital ships.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
William Black
"Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:g82cud$huf$1...@aioe.org...
Because the rules are not the same if you have a Black Sea coastline..
Why am I teaching you absolutely fundamental international treaty stuff?
Am I talking to yet another fourteen year old child sitting at a computer in
his mom's basement somewhere in the Mid West?
William Black
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:geo9a41mdjano45r7...@4ax.com...
> Earl <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> :How was it possible for Soviets to transit Kuznetsov and Kiev-class
> :carriers there???
> :
>
> They called them cruisers and transited them under the Black Sea
> powers exemption for capital ships.
Not quite true.
My recollection is that the British called them 'Through Deck Cruisers' for
financial reasons and the USSR copied the designation for their flat-tops
because they realised that they might be able to get them through the
Bosporus.
Vince
carriers as that term is understood in the treaty.
Vince
Andrew Chaplin
>
> "Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:g82cud$huf$1...@aioe.org...
>> William Black pisze:
>>> "Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:g82aur$846$1...@aioe.org...
>>>> William Black pisze:
>>>>> "Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:g826qc$gv1$1...@aioe.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure Turkey would like to be involved in US clashes with
>>>>>> Russia. That is why presence of US carriers on the Black Sea is so
>>>>>> important.
>>>>> How do you get them there?
>>>>>
>>>>> Over land?
>>>> Over Bosporus. Turkey could agree on that because it is much "lighter"
>>>> move than agree on stationing USAF combat planes engaged in battle-like
>>>> mission on Turkish soil.
>>>
>>> It isn't Turkey's decision to make.
>>>
>>> The straits are governed by something called 'The Montreux Convention'.
>>>
>>> Nothing over 15,000 tons, no more than 30,000 tons at any one time, no
>>> weapons over 8" diameter, no more than one capital ship at a time in the
>>> straits.
>>
>> Not true!
>>
>> How was it possible for Soviets to transit Kuznetsov and Kiev-class
>> carriers there???
>
> Because the rules are not the same if you have a Black Sea coastline..
Well, there's always the old re-flagging trick: somewhere in the Eastern Med,
haul down the Stars and Stripes, give the carrier to Romania or Bulgaria and
change command, hoist the new "owners" ensign and jack, sail on through the
Bosphorus. Old captain stays aboard as an "advisor" and commander of the U.S.
contingent aboard. It would be a diplomatic conceit, but it might stand the
legal tests.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Surreyman
> Stalwart!
>
> With Grit & Determination.
>
> President Bush certainly hasn't forgotten the Berlin Airlift...
>
> Another important thing he has in common in a historical link with President
> Harry S. Truman...
>
> Harry Truman, a Real Democrat -- not one of these current pale, insipid
> imitations, such as Pogue Gans.
> --
> DSH
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> Vires et Honor
Seems to me that Bush is following the 'appeasment' policy? You now
agree then?
Surreyman
Earl
>> How was it possible for Soviets to transit Kuznetsov and Kiev-class
>> carriers there???
>
> Because the rules are not the same if you have a Black Sea coastline..
>
> Why am I teaching you absolutely fundamental international treaty stuff?
>
> Am I talking to yet another fourteen year old child sitting at a computer in
> his mom's basement somewhere in the Mid West?
No you are simply ridiculous guy if you think in practice US would honor
some a hundred years old conventions. In fact US piss on international
law all the time. So, if US really wanted to send carriers on the Black
Sea they would do that without doubt! Yet in this situation "gunboat
diplomacy" was not necessary because Russians had backed down earlier
i.e. after US verbal pressure.
Jack Linthicum
You are aware that Turkey has defense mechanisms in place in the
Bosporus? Actually, I would think having the pilots strike one day
would stop any movement in the Bosporus and Dardanelles. The Strait of
İstanbul is a narrow "S-shaped" channel of complex nature with several
sharp turns and headlands, which prevent a proper look-out, and with
changing currents. Such geographical and oceanographic conditions make
the navigation, open to international shipping, very difficult and
risky.
The density of maritime traffic in Bosporus, which link Black Sea to
Marmara Sea, averages 132 vessels daily, not including local traffic.
Nimitz CVN
Length, overall: 1,092 feet (332.85 meters)
Flight Deck Width: 252 feet (76.8 meters)
Beam: 134 feet (40.84 meters)
Displacement: Approx. 97,000 tons (87,996.9 metric tons) full load
Sp
am...@hotmail.com
Unfortunately, it looks like we are going to see in a near
future.........
Vince
Have you ever told a knife wielding Turk "F*ck you and yours"?
if not, don't suggest forcing a carrier group through a narrow channel
as for backing down
Bush has rolled over and played dead
He sent Rice to do the dirty deed because he hasn't got the balls to
fess up to blowing this one
"The cease-fire agreement, as described by several U.S. officials,
contains two major holes the administration finds disconcerting.
Specifically, the United States wants to see the text refer to respect
for Georgia's "territorial integrity," an oft-repeated phrase that was
noticeably absent from the agreement, according to officials.
Second, the United States is particularly concerned about the fifth
point in the six-point agreement, added at the urging of the Russians,
which allows in vague terms for Russian troops to act in a peacekeeping
role even outside of South Ossetia."
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=5582354&page=1
Bush "big hat no catttle" lets Putin rip him a new one
Vince
Earl
> You are aware that Turkey has defense mechanisms in place in the
> Bosporus? Actually, I would think having the pilots strike one day
> would stop any movement in the Bosporus and Dardanelles. The Strait of
> sharp turns and headlands, which prevent a proper look-out, and with
> changing currents. Such geographical and oceanographic conditions make
> the navigation, open to international shipping, very difficult and
> risky.
>
> The density of maritime traffic in Bosporus, which link Black Sea to
> Marmara Sea, averages 132 vessels daily, not including local traffic.
>
> Nimitz CVN
> Length, overall: 1,092 feet (332.85 meters)
> Flight Deck Width: 252 feet (76.8 meters)
> Beam: 134 feet (40.84 meters)
> Displacement: Approx. 97,000 tons (87,996.9 metric tons) full load
Do you really think Turkey would block US fleet during its pass over
Bosporus? Nope buddy! Turks would calmly agree on that move.
Of course navigation in Bosporus is difficult but obviously it would not
be a big trouble for US Navy... :)
Vince
You have got to be kidding
NO Turkish government could survive such a humiliation
The agreement says no aircraft carriers,
The Russians quite rightly would take it as an act of war
and block the straits militarily
You might as well just make the nuclear threat and take on WWIII
Vince
Earl
> Have you ever told a knife wielding Turk "F*ck you and yours"?
> if not, don't suggest forcing a carrier group through a narrow channel
Yes, Turks would forcefully block US fleet...don't be funny! :)
They would play-act that nothing happen instead of Russian "sable rattling".
> as for backing down
> Bush has rolled over and played dead
Rather Putin had to call off his "Max-War-Plan" aimed at overthrowing
Saakashvili and at least partially retake control over Georgia by
removing Western military and economic influences there.
> He sent Rice to do the dirty deed because he hasn't got the balls to
> fess up to blowing this one
Apparently his words were enough for Russkies. Now we can see final
tuning of the peace plan called "Russia's kicking-off from Georgia" back
to her two homelands. In effect Russians will find themselves in the
same position as before war.
Very deplorable war result, don't you think? :)
Bert Hyman
> The Russians quite rightly would take it as an act of war
Not unlike Germany invading Poland, Russia invading Finland or
Russia invading Georgia, I suppose.
> You might as well just make the nuclear threat and take on WWIII
If you like.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | be...@iphouse.com
Vince
Ever talks to Turks about the Bosporus ? I have
They are fanatic about it.
as to Georgia
here is what Binyon of the Times points out
(Micheal Binyon is a well regarded Journalistic expert on Russia
"It was not only Mr Saakashvili who thought that he had the distraction
of the Olympics to cover him; the Kremlin also knew that Mr Bush was
watching basketball, and, in the longer term, that the US army was fully
engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan. From the day that the Russian tank
brigade raced through the tunnel into South Ossetia, Russia has not made
one wrong move. Mr Bush's remarks yesterday notwithstanding, In five
days it turned an overreaching blunder by a Western-backed opponent into
a devastating exposure of Western impotence, dithering and double
standards on respecting national sovereignty (viz Iraq).
The attack was short, sharp and deadly - enough to send the Georgians
fleeing in humiliating panic, their rout captured by global television.
The destruction was enough to hurt, but not so much that the world would
be roused in fury. The timing of the ceasefire was precise: just hours
before President Sarkozy could voice Western anger. Moscow made clear
that it retained the initiative. And despite sporadic breaches - on both
sides - Russia has blunted Georgian charges that this is a war of
annihilation.
Moscow can also counter Georgian PR, the last weapon left to Tbilisi.
Human rights? Look at what Georgia has done in South Ossetia (and also
in Abkhazia). National sovereignty? Look at the detachment of Kosovo
from Serbia. False pretexts? Look at Ronald Reagan's invasion of Grenada
to "rescue" US medical students. Western outrage? Look at the confused
cacophony.
There are lessons everywhere. To the former Soviet republics - remember
your geography. To Nato - do you still want to incorporate Caucasian
vendettas into your alliance? To Tbilisi - do you want to keep a
President who brought this on you? To Washington - does Russia's voice
still count for nothing? Like it or not, it counts for a lot. "
Bush blew this one big time
vince
Jack Linthicum
They wouldn't have to "block" it, just tell them the pilots are off
today. And the Turks are not the only ones you have to satisfy. The
Russians will probably need to send many ships through at the same
time. Any bets on an accident? The U.S. is not a signatory, so has no
formal standing.
I presume you are qualified OOD in transit and capable of piloting an
100,000 ton 1000 foot long ship through a channel 660 yards wide.
(Note the ship itself is 85 yards wide)
http://www.cerrahogullari.com.tr/ports/BOSPHORUS%20(ISTANBUL)%20STRAIT%20.htm
(Edited)
The Turkish Straits, comprising the Strait of Canakkale, the Strait
of Istanbul and the Sea of Marmara and, are unique in many respects.
The very narrow and winding shape of the strait is more a kin to that
of the river. It is an established fact that the Turkish Straits are
one of the most hazardous, crowded, difficult and potentially
dangerous, waterways in the world for marines. All the dangers and
obstacles characteristic of narrow waterways are present and acute in
this critical sea lane.
The Strait of Istanbul is approximately 16.74 nautical miles long,
with an average width of 0.81 nautical miles. It is only 0.378
nautical miles wide at its narrowest. The Straits of Istanbul takes
several sharp turns. The ships are bound alter course at least 12
times at these bends. At the narrowest point, Kandilli (700 m), a 45
degree course alteration is required. The current can reach 7-8 knots
at this point. At Yenikoy, the necessary course alteration is 80
degrees.
At the above mentioned turns (Kandilli and Yenikoy) where significant
course alterations have to be made, the rear and forward sights are
totally blocked prior to and during the course alteration. The ships
approaching from the opposite direction cannot be seen round these
bends.
There is also very heavy ferry traffic in the Strait of Istanbul,
which crosses between European and Asiatic sides of the city.
There are two suspension-bridges spanning the Bosphorus which connects
Europe and Asia. Istanbul - Bosphorus suspension bridges 3 miles
within the Strait connects Europe and Asia. It is 1074 m long between
the legs and has a vertical clearance of 64 m over a width of 400 m
decreasing to 58 m at each end.
VESSEL TRAFFIC SEPARATION Traffic Separation Schemes (TSS)
The boundaries of the Traffic Separation Schemes which shall apply in
the Straits and Marmara Region are delimited.
All maritime traffic must stay to the starboard side of the channel.
In the North, by the North border of the area joining the following
points:
Lat. 41 deg. 16' N., Long. 028 deg. 55' E
Lat. 41 deg. 21' N., Long. 028 deg. 55' E
Lat. 41 deg. 21' N., Long. 029 deg. 16' E
Lat. 41 deg. 14' N., Long. 029 deg. 16' E
On the South, the South border of the area connecting the following
points:
Lat.40 deg. 05' N., Long. 026 deg. 11' E
Lat.40 deg. 02' N., Long. 025 deg. 55' E
Lat.39 deg. 50' N., Long. 025 deg. 53' E
Lat.39 deg. 44' N., Long. 025 deg. 55' E
Lat.39 deg. 44 'N., Long. 026 deg. 09' E
Traffic Separation Schemes that are prepared in accordance with the
guidelines in the "Ship's Routing" publication of the International
Maritime Organization (IMO) are shown in the planning chart no. 9001.
Southbound Of Bosphorus Passage Prosedure: Please call Turkeli Control
Station by VHF Channel 13, Prior 30 nm to Turkeli Light House, and ask
for permission to enter Bosphorus. When you get green light from the
Control Station, call also Kavak Pilot by VHF Channel 71 advising your
position and stand by on VHF Channel 13/71 till entering the Bosphorus
and then switch to VHF Channel 12 till leaving the Strait. Report
yourself to Turkeli Control Station by VHF Channel 13 while passing
Anadolu Light House
North Bound Of B.P.P: Please call Istanbul Control Station by VHF
Channel 11, prior 30 nm to Haydarpasa Break Water, and advise your
position than proceed as per Control Station's instructions and stand
by on VHF Channel 11. When you get instruction for entrance from the
Istanbul Control Station, call also Bosphorus Pilot by VHF Channel 71
advising your position and stand by on VHF Channel 11/71 till entering
the strait and then switch to VHF Channel 12 till leaving the strait.
Report yourself to Turkeli Control Station by VHF Channel 13 while
passing Anadolu Light House
Guide to Masters passing through the Turkish straits
ENTRANCE
BOSPHORUS: Is the Strait joining the Sea of Marmara and the Black Sea
and is located within the boundaries of the Port of Istanbul
boundaries of which are described in the relevant regulations as
follows:
''The port of Istanbul is the sea area (including the Golden Horn)
between the lines that join Turkeli Feneri and Anadoul Feneri in the
North, Bababurnu and Yelkenkaya Feneri in the South''.
According to New Maritime Traffic Regulations For The Turkish Straits
and the Marmara Sea, Masters/Owners/Agents of the vessels must comply
with the following rules when proceeding through the Straits and the
Marmara Sea to ensure safety of life and property.
VOYAGE / SAILING PLAN (advance information)
Masters or Owners or Chatterers of the vessels which are 500 gross
tons or more, 24 hours before the mouth of the Strait of Istanbul or
the Strait of Canakkale, must give Sailing Plan 1 (SP-1) to Traffic
Control Center thru their agents and masters of vessels must give
Sailing Plan 2 (SP-2) by VHF Channel 16 or 71, directly to the Traffic
Control Center, two hours before arriving at the mouth of the Strait
or at a distance of 20 nm from the mouth of the Strait , whichever
comes first.
NAME OF REPORT: SAILING PLAN 1 (SP-1)
A) Ship's Name, Call Sign, Flag
B) Date and Time
C) Position (Reporting Position)
F) Sea Speed - Maximum Continuous Maneuvering Speed
G) Port of Departure
H) Date, Time and Point of Entry Into Traffic Separation Scheme
I) Port of Destination
J) Request Pilot (Yes/No) - Strait of Istanbul; Sea of Marmara; Strait
of
Canakkale
O) Forward and Aft Draught (Meter) - Max. Air Draught (Meter)
P) Type of Cargo
Q) Defect/Damage/Deficiencies/Other Limitations
R) Description of Dangerous, Nuclear and Pollution Goods.
T) Ship's Type/Size; Length Overall, GRT; Present Displacement
X) Any Other Information
NAME OF REPORT: SAILING PLAN 2 (SP-2)
A) Ship's name, call sign, flag
D) Position (bearing-distance)
H) Date, time and point of entry into traffic separation scheme
J) Request pilot (yes/no) Strait of Istanbul, Sea of Marmara, Strait
of Canakkale
Q) Defect/damage/deficiencies/other limitations
X) Any other information
Note: Reference points in the position of the Article D
** Turkeli Light
** Ahirkapi Light
** Gelibolu Light
** Mehmetcik Light
PILOTAGE
Turkish vessels 150 meters or more in length passing through the
Straits shall take a pilot. Pilots are allowed to board vessels coming
from the Black Sea at Rumeli Kavagi before the vessel has been granted
pratique at Buyukdere. It is strongly recommended that pilots be used
during navigation through the Straits so as to minimize the risk of
accidents as much as possible.
Pilotage is not compulsory for transit vessels but recommended by the
local authorities for the convenience of the masters to comply with
the new maritime traffic. Vessels not taking pilot, may be exposed to
wait turn at anchorage before entrance to the straits since vessels
taken pilot has more chance to enter the strait upon arrival. Vessels
requiring a pilot must hoist G flag and give the signal by whistle or
by Morse code at night.
Vessels 150 m or more in length are strongly recommended to take a
pilot for safety purposes.
PILOTAGE SERVICES IN THE STRAIT OF ISTANBUL:
North of the Strait of Istanbul (on the Black sea side) pilot
embarkation place: Pilot embarkation is carried out between the
positions Lat. 41 deg. 12'.30 N; Long. 29 deg. 06'.70 E and Lat. 41
deg. 15' 15N; Long 29 deg. 07'.94 E on the Line of Southern traffic
direction, subject to weather conditions.
North of the Strait of Istanbul (on the Black sea side) pilot
disembarkation place: Pilot disembarkation is carried out on a line of
3 NM distance drawn from the position Lat. 41 deg. 12'.20 N; Long. 29
deg. 07'.00 E to the direction 040 deg., subject to weather
conditions.
South of the Strait of Istanbul (on the Marmara sea side) pilot
embarkation place: Pilot embarkation is carried out on a line of 3 NM
distance drawn from the position Lat. 40 deg. 58'.20 N; Long. 28 deg.
59'.70 E to the direction 194 deg., subject to weather conditions.
South of the Strait of Istanbul (on the Marmara sea side) pilot
disembarkation place: Pilot disembarkation is carried out on a line of
3 NM distance drawn from the position Lat. 40 deg. 58'.20 N; Long. 28
deg. 57'.70 E to the direction 234 deg., subject to weather conditions
PILOT LADDER: will be prepared on vessel's starboard side. If your
vessel's freeboard exceeds more than 5 meters, please prepare a
combination ladder.
PILOTAGE STATIONS AT BOSPHORUS
Rumeli Kavak :
Call Name : Kavak Pilot
Position : Lat. 41 deg. 10'.60 N., Long. 29 deg. 04'.40 E
Telephone : (0 212) 242 04 94 - 242 03 74
Fax : (0 212) 242 16 07
VHF Band : Ch. 16, 71
Working Hours : 24 hours
Istanbul :
Call Name : Istanbul Pilot
Position : Lat. 41 deg. 00'.70 N., Long. 29 deg. 00'.63 E
Telephone : (0 216) 333 05 33
VHF Band : Ch 16, 71
Working Hours : 24 hours
ANCHORAGE: When traffic in the Straits has to be temporarily suspended
and to be directed, vessels will await the opening of the Strait of
Istanbul to maritime traffic, in the Kilyos anchorage area on the
Black Sea side, and in the Ahirkapi - Yesilkoy anchorage area in the
Sea of Marmara. (see anchorage areas)
AIR DRAUGHT: Vessels that sail through the Strait of Istanbul in
compliance with the traffic separation scheme shall pay attention to
the warning lights of the bridges regarding sailing safety.****
Vessels, whose air draft is 58 meters and more may not pass through
the Strait of Istanbul.*** Vessels, whose air draft is between 54 and
58 meters shall be accompanied by a tug boat of a number and force to
be determined by the Administration to ensure that they keep their
course.
L.O.A../DRAFT: There is no definite L.O.A. and/or draft restriction
determined by Administration, however, The vessels that are
150-200m.in length and/or whose draft is between 10-15m.,shall submit
SP-1 reports to Traffic Control Center, at least 24 hrs before to
their entry to the Turkish straits, the vessels that are 200-300 m. in
length and/or have more than 15 m. draft, shall submit SP-1 reports at
least 48 hrs prior to their entry into the Turkish straits.
FOR THE VESSELS THAT ARE MORE THAN 300 M. In length, the owner or
operator of such vessels shall provide the administration with the
info on the vessel and its cargo during the planning phase of the
sail. the Traffic Control Center and if necessary the administration,
based on these data provided to them about the vessels , shall inform
the relevant vessel's owner, the operator or the captain of the
requirements and the recommendations, if any, that are necessary to
ensure a safe passage of the vessel in question through the Turkish
Straits, taking into account all specifications of the vessels ,
including their dimensions and maneuvering capabilities, the
morphological and physical structure of the Turkish straits, the
condition of the season, the safety of life, property and environment
as well as the maritime traffic. Those vessels which fulfill the
necessary conditions for the passage shall submit the SP-1 report at
least 72 hrs in advance.
PASSAGE DURING DAY TIME In the Strait of Istanbul,it is recommended
that the passage of vessels
whose length exceeds 200 meters or having draft of 15 meters or more
takes place in day time.
WIND AND SEA: Winds from N and NE are most frequent. S winds are
usually strong and squally and may sometimes reach to gale force and
they are usually accompanied by low cloud and rain when strong and
sometimes by fog when light. The NW winds are usually fresh. They are
accompanied by clear weather. Strong S and SW winds are sometimes
dangerous for vessels under loading and discharging
Transient Mediterranean lows migrating northeastward across the Aegean
and Black Seas bring the most hazardous winter-time weather to
Istanbul. The hazards result from strong south to southwesterly winds
blowing across the Sea of Marmara in advance of the low pressure
systems. The aircraft carrier anchorage located just west of the
entrance to the Bosporus is fully exposed to the winds, which can
reach 60 kt. Northerly winds are not identified as a problem for the
port. The low-lying terrain to the north provides some protection to
the aircraft carrier anchorage. The anchorage on the Bosporus adjacent
to Dolmabahce Palace and the buoy positions immediately north of the
anchorage are exposed to northerly or southerly winds that blow more-
or-less parallel to the orientation of the waterway. The southerly
winds ahead of approaching low pressure systems pose the greatest
problem to the anchorage because of their strength, which can reach 60
kt, and the fact that they are opposite in direction to the relatively
strong current in the Bosporus.
TIDES: There is but little tidal fluctuation.
CURRENTS: When the surface current speed in the strait of Istanbul and
the Strait of Canakkale exceeds 4 knots or when northerly surface
currents are caused by southerly winds, then, vessels carrying
dangerous cargo, large vessels and deep draught vessels with a speed
of 10 knots or less, will not enter the straits and will wait until
current speeds are 4 knots or less, or the northerly currents have
stopped.
However, vessels other than those mentioned above, if they wish to do
so, may undertake their passage by obtaining the tugboat/tugboats,
which the Traffic Control Center will determine in accordance with
their tonnage.
When the surface current speed in the Strait of Istanbul and in the
Strait of Canakkale exceeds 6 knots or when strong northerly currents
are caused by southerly winds, then vessels carrying dangerous cargo,
large vessels and deep drought vessels regardless of their speed will
not enter the strait and will wait until current speeds are less than
6 knots or the strong northerly currents have stopped.
The administration shall notify the vessels and the relevant
authorities of the conditions of the currents.
When the current speed or pattern revert to normal in the straits, the
Traffic Control Center shall inform the vessels and the relevant
authorities about the passage order of vessels through the straits
which is established according to the Turkish Straits reporting system
and according to the types of vessels in order to speed up the traffic
flow.(TURBAP)
VISIBILITY IN THE STRAITS: When visibility is 2 nm or less, at any
area in the straits, vessels passing through the straits will keep
their radars turned on constantly to provide radar reading. On vessels
with two radars, one of them will be assigned to the use of the pilot.
When visibility is 1.5 NM or less in any part of the strait, vessels
whose radar does not provide a complete display ability shall not
enter the Strait.
When visibility in the Straits is 1 NM or less, vessels carrying
dangerous cargo and large vessels shall not enter the Straits.
When visibility in any part of the Straits is less than 0.5 NM, the
traffic flow in the Strait shall be closed in both directions.
When visibility in the Straits is suitable for navigation, the Traffic
Control Centers. Shall inform the vessels.
GENERAL RULES
A. Vessels navigating in the Turkish Straits, shall exercise full
diligence and regard for the requirements of the traffic separation
scheme.(COLREG Rule 10).
B. Vessels entering the area to transit through the Turkish Straits or
entering a port in the area will comply with the reporting system
(TUBRAP) established by the Administration.
C. Vessels navigating in the Turkish Straits shall continuously
monitor the broadcasts of the Traffic Control Centre and follow the
Centre's Instructions.
D. A vessel may not pass through the Straits in the tow of another
vessel. Passage through the Straits is possible when the towage is
carried out by tug boats or vessels suitably equipped for the
operation.
E. The normal speed for vessels in the Straits is 10 nm over the
ground. This speed may be exceeded if steerage way speed cannot be
reached, by informing the Traffic Control Stations and taking care to
avoid collisions and creating waves harmful to the surroundings.
F. In consideration of the limited manoeuvrability of vessels having
deep draught, during the passage of such vessels through the Straits,
sufficient space for manoeuvre and navigation will be provided
(COLREG, Rule 3 h).
G. The passage of large vessels whose length exceeds 200 metres or
having a draught greater than 15 metres, due to the adverse
morphological, oceanographic and meteorological characteristics and
physical constraints of the Straits of the Straits, is advised to take
place in daytime.
H. The passage through the Straits of a "vessel not under command" or
"a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre", as defined in
COLREG 72 (Rulo 3f and 3g), depends on the special permission of the
Administration. If a vessels becomes "not under command" in the course
of passage, the master of the vessel shall immediately inform the
Traffic Control Station and follow the instructions given.
ONE-WAY AND TWO-WAY MARITIME TRAFFIC IN THE STRAITS: Vessels
navigating in the Straits shall exercise full diligence and regard for
the requirements of the traffic separation schemes. To process within
the traffic separation schemes is obligatory. Vessel shall proceed in
the appropriate traffic lane in the general direction of traffic flow
for that lane and shall keep as clear as possible to the traffic
separation line. A vessel that is not able to comply with the
requirements of the traffic separation scheme shall inform the Traffic
Control Station well in advance. In such circumstances, the
Administration may temporarily suspend the particular traffic
separation scheme, or sections of it, and inform the vessels sailing
in the area and advise them to vessels which cannot comply with the
traffic separation scheme, the Administration may temporarily suspend
two-way traffic and regulate one-way traffic to maintain a safe
distance between vessels.
MISCELLANEOUS: ACCIDENTS AND BREAKDOWNS While Underway Vessels whose
direct transit passage through the Strait has been interrupted due to
accidents, breakdowns or compulsory anchoring shall immediately inform
the traffic control station and request advice and instructions. After
measures are taken by the relevant Port Authority in regard to the
safety of the vessel and the area, the vessel shall take a pilot and
carry out the action required for the completion of the passage.
OVERTAKING - SHIP OVERTAKEN: Vessels navigating in the Straits shall
not overtake vessels proceeding before them except due to necessity.
a. Vessels passing through the Strait shall maintain a distance of at
least 8 cables (1600 yards) between each other.
b. If for any reason a vessel is going to reduce speed while
navigating in the Straits, she shall first inform the vessels
proceeding behind her.
c. A vessel navigating under her own power at low speed will keep to
the most starboard side of her own traffic separation lane and will
permit faster vessels to overtake her.
d. When a vessel needs to overtake a slower vessel in front of her,
she shall first obtain a traffic report from the traffic control
station, and if the situation is clear, shall inform the vessel to be
overtaken. The overtaking shall if possible take place on one course.
e. Overtaking will not take place between Vanikoy and Kanlica in the
Strait of Istanbul, and between Cape Nara and Cape Kilitbahir in the
Strait of Canakkale.
STRAITS PASSAGE PROCEDURE
Application petitions prepared in respect of determination of straits
passage conditions will be included below mentioned information.
Furthermore, below requested documents to be enclosed;
1. Departure and arrival ports of the tow or vessel
2. ETA to Straits entrance
3. Displacement of the tow or vessel
4. Dimensions of the tow or vessel (LOA/ beam/ draught)
5. Flag of the tow or vessel
6. Present GRT/ NT/ DWT of the tow or vessel
7. Maximum speed and present situation of engine of the tow or vessel
8. Flag / GRT/ NT/ dimensions (LOA, beam, draught, air draught)/
engine power of the tug.
A. FOR THE APPLICATIONS IN RESPECT OF TOWAGES
1. Bollard Pull Certificate of the tug issued by the Authority or
Class Society
2. Towage Certificate or Sailing Permit
3. If not included in the Towage Certificate or Sailing Permit,
certificates of the towage equipments issued by the
Authority or Class Society
4. Tonnage Certificate/ Class or Register Certificate/ Safety
Equipment Certificate/ Safety Manning Certificate/
Radio Certificate/ Load Line Certificate/ Safety Construction
Certificate of the tug issued by the Authority or
Class Society
5. Detailed Towage Plan from up and side
6. Tonnage Certificate or General Arrangement of the tow issued by the
Authority or Class Society
7. Documents pertaining to full cover P&I Insurance
a) Confirm or Statement Letter issued by P&I Insurance Company
(the said letter will be included clearly below
mentioned information without referring anywhere)
i) Tug and tow is covered by P&I Insurance
ii) Financial Update of the insurance
b) If the tow is not included by the P&I Insurance of the tug, a
separate P&I Insurance Policy arranged for the
tow
c) Valid P&I Certificate issued by P&I Insurance Company (there
will be no exemption passage in respect of
collision or pollution)
d) Valid Hull & machinery Insurance Policy of the tug
e) Valid Hull Insurance Policy of tow (if she has engine and the
engine is running, valid Machinery Insurance
Policy)
B. FOR THE APPLICATIONS IN RESPECT OF VESSEL DEPENDENT TO SPECIAL
PASSAGE CONDITIONS
1. Tonnage Certificate/ Class or Register Certificate/ Safety
Equipment Certificate/ Radio Certificate/ Load Line Certificate/
Safety Construction Certificate of the vessel issued by the Authority
or Class Society
2. Documents pertaining to full cover P&I Insurance
a) Confirm or Statement Letter issued by P&I Insurance Company
(the said letter will be included clearly below
mentioned information without referring anywhere)
i) Tug and tow is covered by P&I Insurance
ii) Financial Update of the insurance
b) Valid P&I Certificate issued by P&I Insurance Company (there
will be no exemption passage in respect of collision or
pollution)
c) Valid Hull & machinery Insurance Policy of the vessel
After presentation of the petition and the enclosed documents;
1. Application petition and enclosed documents to be checked by the
Committee formed by Regional Management
2. Passage conditions are determined by the Committee for the vessels
whose passages are approved.
3. If the length of the vessel or total length of the tow is equal or
over 300m, passage permission is issued by Under secretariat of
Maritime Affairs
4. The vessels of tows whose permissions are issued by Under
secretariat of maritime Affairs for the applications whose
lengths are equal or over 300m, Straits passage conditions are
informed to relevant foundations/ association (for their
information to Shore Security Commandership, Sea Police; for due to
Canakkale Regional Management, Istanbul Harbor Master, Istanbul
Sea Traffic Control Centre, Canakkale Sea Traffic Control Centre,
Turkish Maritime Management, Harbor Management) and relevant agency
5. The vessel or tow is permitted to the straits passage who got the
passage conditions, checked by Regional Management.
*** I have to believe any CVN will exceed this height.
Earl
> You have got to be kidding
> NO Turkish government could survive such a humiliation
What humiliation??? Simply Turkey would not tout this fact internally
and that is all.
> The agreement says no aircraft carriers,
> The Russians quite rightly would take it as an act of war
> and block the straits militarily
I am afraid Russkies would have quite different troubles than blocking
Bosporus after American CBG with II MEF entered the Black Sea...look at
their ridiculous remnants of Red Banner Black Sea Fleet blocking
Straits... :)
> You might as well just make the nuclear threat and take on WWIII
As usual you overestimate situation...no Russo-American war would be
possible! Only *Russian* humiliation like after Cuban Crisis.
Vince
neocon fantasies
1) Turkish sovereignty over the Bosporus and enforcement of the Montreux
convention is a centerpiece of the Turkish national Identity.
They don't have to tout it, you cant miss it
There would be a violent overthrow of the Turkish government in moments,
Russia has enormous military assets in the Black sea, and they are
particularly expert at mining
anything that went in the black sea would not get out
Vince
William Black
You want to 'Force the Bosporus'?
Against a full NATO member?
For Georgia!
Mad as a badger.
Look you imbecile, get this one important fact through your thick skull.
Nobody's going to risk blowing up the world for bloody Georgia.
William Black
> Vince pisze:
>> You have got to be kidding
>> NO Turkish government could survive such a humiliation
>
> What humiliation??? Simply Turkey would not tout this fact internally and
> that is all.
How do they manage that?
It's not some despotic tyranny run by the CIA.
Earl
> neocon fantasies
Just viable military option if Russians didn't go back in time!
> 1) Turkish sovereignty over the Bosporus and enforcement of the Montreux
> convention is a centerpiece of the Turkish national Identity.
>
> They don't have to tout it, you cant miss it
> There would be a violent overthrow of the Turkish government in moments,
Turkish government could be overthrown only by Turkish Army. Of course
only for going too far Islamic way. On the other hand Turkish Army is a
backbone and guarantor of Western end especially US strategic relations
with Turkey. So don't tell us BS about Turkish Army deposing its
government for aiding US!
> Russia has enormous military assets in the Black sea, and they are
> particularly expert at mining
> anything that went in the black sea would not get out
Believe me, now Russia has almost nonexistent military capability on the
Black Sea against real naval powers like US Navy or even sole Turkish
Navy! They can only threat such piece of shits like Georgian "navy". I
suppose Russkies do not have even enough mines to block Bosporus not
mention about how they can do that!
Besides if Ukraine decided to get rid of Black Sea Fleet from
Sevastopol, entire Russian fleet would cease to exist because Russia
does not have her own larger maritime ports on that sea. Note Ukrainian
President has already signed a decree to limit Russian naval activity on
Crimea without Ukrainian approval!
Just viable military option if Russians didn't go back in time!
Earl
> Look you imbecile, get this one important fact through your thick skull.
Piss of you moron!
Vince
> Vince pisze:
>> neocon fantasies
>
> Just viable military option if Russians didn't go back in time!
>
>> 1) Turkish sovereignty over the Bosporus and enforcement of the
>> Montreux convention is a centerpiece of the Turkish national Identity.
>>
>> They don't have to tout it, you cant miss it
>> There would be a violent overthrow of the Turkish government in moments,
>
> Turkish government could be overthrown only by Turkish Army. Of course
> only for going too far Islamic way. On the other hand Turkish Army is a
> backbone and guarantor of Western end especially US strategic relations
> with Turkey. So don't tell us BS about Turkish Army deposing its
> government for aiding US!
The Turkish military guards the Turkish identity
not western authority over Turkey
I suggest you study "Sevres phobia"
>> Russia has enormous military assets in the Black sea, and they are
>> particularly expert at mining
>> anything that went in the black sea would not get out
>
> Believe me, now Russia has almost nonexistent military capability on the
> Black Sea against real naval powers like US Navy or even sole Turkish
> Navy! They can only threat such piece of shits like Georgian "navy". I
> suppose Russkies do not have even enough mines to block Bosporus not
> mention about how they can do that!
>
> Besides if Ukraine decided to get rid of Black Sea Fleet from
> Sevastopol, entire Russian fleet would cease to exist because Russia
> does not have her own larger maritime ports on that sea. Note Ukrainian
> President has already signed a decree to limit Russian naval activity on
> Crimea without Ukrainian approval!
> Just viable military option if Russians didn't go back in time!
>
>
>
OFCS
look at a map
you cant just shove in warships you have to supply them
Vince
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:geo9a41mdjano45r7...@4ax.com...
:> Earl <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote:
:
:> :How was it possible for Soviets to transit Kuznetsov and Kiev-class
:> :carriers there???
:> :
:>
:> They called them cruisers and transited them under the Black Sea
:> powers exemption for capital ships.
:
:Not quite true.
:
Well, yeah. Quite true.
The Kiev class was originally designated as Bolshoi Protolovadochnyi
Kreizer. They were subsequently redesignated as Takticheskoi
Avionosnyi Kreizer. Sometime in late 1979 or so they started
referring to them as Avianesushchie Korabli (without an official
designation change).
Aircraft carriers of other nations are usually referred to as
Avianosets, although Avianesushchie Korabli is sometimes used.
:
:My recollection is that the British called them 'Through Deck Cruisers' for
:financial reasons and the USSR copied the designation for their flat-tops
:because they realised that they might be able to get them through the
:Bosporus.
:
Your recollection is wrong.
--
You have never lived until you have almost died.
Life has a special meaning that the protected
will never know.
William Black
> Vince pisze:
>> neocon fantasies
>
> Just viable military option if Russians didn't go back in time!
>
>> 1) Turkish sovereignty over the Bosporus and enforcement of the Montreux
>> convention is a centerpiece of the Turkish national Identity.
>>
>> They don't have to tout it, you cant miss it
>> There would be a violent overthrow of the Turkish government in moments,
>
> Turkish government could be overthrown only by Turkish Army. Of course
> only for going too far Islamic way. On the other hand Turkish Army is a
> backbone and guarantor of Western end especially US strategic relations
> with Turkey. So don't tell us BS about Turkish Army deposing its
> government for aiding US!
If the Turkish army overthrew the Turkish government the level of shit
coming their way would be almost indescribable.
If they did this to aid the USA the chances are that NATO would start to
disintegrate.
The Turkish army, government and people all know this. And what's more
they don't care one little bit if Russia turns Georgia into rice pudding.
The USA has, as the USA found out in its invasion of Iraq, very little
influence over Turkey, a country that has already decided that its future
lies inside Europe.
>> Russia has enormous military assets in the Black sea, and they are
>> particularly expert at mining
>> anything that went in the black sea would not get out
>
> Believe me,
Now, why exactly should we do that?
> Besides if Ukraine decided to get rid of Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol,
> entire Russian fleet would cease to exist because Russia does not have her
> own larger maritime ports on that sea.
If they try they'll get what Georgia got.
Russia gets access to the Black Sea ports via treaty, break the treaty and
they'll start shooting, just like they just did with Georgia...
This is Russia's back yard, they do what they want when they want, live
with it.
William Black
> William Black pisze:
>> Look you imbecile, get this one important fact through your thick skull.
>
> Piss of you moron!
Lack of content noted.
Earl
> If the Turkish army overthrew the Turkish government the level of shit
> coming their way would be almost indescribable.
>
> If they did this to aid the USA the chances are that NATO would start to
> disintegrate.
>
> The Turkish army, government and people all know this. And what's more
> they don't care one little bit if Russia turns Georgia into rice pudding.
You supposedly did not read what I had written. I simply stated your
accusations that people could overthrow Turkish government are mad.
Turkey is a police state so security forces and army would crush any mob
attempt to depose govermennt. Irony is that only security forces could
in fact carry out coup de Etat in this country, what you still cannot
understand.
> The USA has, as the USA found out in its invasion of Iraq, very little
> influence over Turkey, a country that has already decided that its future
> lies inside Europe.
Can you feel difference between access of some 20-50 thousands of US
land troops to invade Iraq from your territory and calmly agreed on
passing several US warships through Bosporus??? I am afraid this is
outside our mind reach...
>>> Russia has enormous military assets in the Black sea, and they are
>>> particularly expert at mining
>>> anything that went in the black sea would not get out
>> Believe me,
>
> Now, why exactly should we do that?
Because you can gain on this! :)
>> Besides if Ukraine decided to get rid of Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol,
>> entire Russian fleet would cease to exist because Russia does not have her
>> own larger maritime ports on that sea.
>
> If they try they'll get what Georgia got.
>
> Russia gets access to the Black Sea ports via treaty, break the treaty and
> they'll start shooting, just like they just did with Georgia...
>
> This is Russia's back yard, they do what they want when they want, live
> with it.
If you think Russia would dare to challenge Ukraine you are very naive
guy. Fortunately Russian rulers are not especially after Georgian lesson
so forget about your crappy ideas...
Wanna proof? Russian MoD has already stated that BS Fleet will obey
Ukrainian law and order.
Fred J. McCall
:William Black pisze:
:>> How was it possible for Soviets to transit Kuznetsov and Kiev-class
:>> carriers there???
:>
:> Because the rules are not the same if you have a Black Sea coastline..
:>
:> Why am I teaching you absolutely fundamental international treaty stuff?
:>
:> Am I talking to yet another fourteen year old child sitting at a computer in
:> his mom's basement somewhere in the Mid West?
:
:No you are simply ridiculous guy if you think in practice US would honor
:some a hundred years old conventions. In fact US piss on international
:law all the time.
:
You're an idiot.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
Earl
> Earl <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> :William Black pisze:
> :>> How was it possible for Soviets to transit Kuznetsov and Kiev-class
> :>> carriers there???
> :>
> :> Because the rules are not the same if you have a Black Sea coastline..
> :>
> :> Why am I teaching you absolutely fundamental international treaty stuff?
> :>
> :> Am I talking to yet another fourteen year old child sitting at a computer in
> :> his mom's basement somewhere in the Mid West?
> :
> :No you are simply ridiculous guy if you think in practice US would honor
> :some a hundred years old conventions. In fact US piss on international
> :law all the time.
> :
>
> You're an idiot.
An idiot is guy who thinks that US attacks on Serbia and Iraq were
legitimate according to international law. So the idiot is... :)
David E. Powell
Did you even follow any of the UN Security Council activity regarding
Iraq from 1990-2003?
Jim Yanik
news:Xns9AFB584A64A...@127.0.0.1:
> fir...@firelaw.us (Vince) wrote in news:wBfpk.9$p72.2@trnddc05:
>
>> The Russians quite rightly would take it as an act of war
"rightly"??
then Russia selling Tor SAM batteries to Iran was an act of war.
ABM missiles are NOT an offensive weapon,no more than SAM systems.
>
> Not unlike Germany invading Poland, Russia invading Finland or
> Russia invading Georgia, I suppose.
>
>> You might as well just make the nuclear threat and take on WWIII
It appears RUSSIA is the one beginnning WW3.
They are supporting Iran and Syria aganst us,too.
>
> If you like.
>
heck,the Russian invasion of Georgia clearly demostrates why we need ABM
defenses in Europe and elsewhere.
Say,could an AEGIS ship provided ABM defense for CONUS by placing it in
Hudson Bay or in waters north of Canada?
Maybe with an oil platform carrying the early warning and search radars.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
William Black
> Turkey is a police state so security forces and army would crush any mob
> attempt to depose govermennt.
Well no.
That's rather the point, this week.
Turkey is a rather fragile democracy, and people there, including teh
army, want to keep it that way.
>> The USA has, as the USA found out in its invasion of Iraq, very little
>> influence over Turkey, a country that has already decided that its
>> future lies inside Europe.
>
> Can you feel difference between access of some 20-50 thousands of US land
> troops to invade Iraq from your territory and calmly agreed on passing
> several US warships through Bosporus??? I am afraid this is outside our
> mind reach...
There is no difference.
It's about Turkish sovreigenty.
The Turks want to keep it.
They won't let a major US surface unit pass through the Bosporous without
some sort of resistance.
> If you think Russia would dare to challenge Ukraine you are very naive
> guy. Fortunately Russian rulers are not especially after Georgian lesson
> so forget about your crappy ideas...
Georgian lesson?
Which lesson is that?
"They'll fold after two days and then we can do what we want for the next
week or so and the US will pay"?
Look, Georgia got mulched.
The Russians did what they wanted, indeed reports are still saying that
they're busy right now blowing up Georgian strategic assets before
withdrawing.
See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7562959.stm
For the rather sordid details of how Russia is busy turning the Georgian
navy into scrap.
Please note the date line
Today at 12:26Z
Earl
>> An idiot is guy who thinks that US attacks on Serbia and Iraq were
>> legitimate according to international law. So the idiot is... :)
>
> Did you even follow any of the UN Security Council activity regarding
> Iraq from 1990-2003?
Of course! And you UN Charter???
William Black
"Jim Yanik" <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9AFB7FBCAA0...@64.209.0.85...
> then Russia selling Tor SAM batteries to Iran was an act of war.
Selling guns is never 'an act of war'.
Ask the Colt Patant Firearms Manufacturing Company.
>>> You might as well just make the nuclear threat and take on WWIII
>
> It appears RUSSIA is the one beginnning WW3.
> They are supporting Iran and Syria aganst us,too.
Are you fighting them yet?
Nobody noticed.
> heck,the Russian invasion of Georgia clearly demostrates why we need ABM
> defenses in Europe and elsewhere.
Well...
No it didn't.
torresD
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Earl" <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
:news:g843r8$o4k$1...@news.mixmin.net...
:> Vince pisze:
:>> neocon fantasies
:>
:> Just viable military option if Russians didn't go back in time!
:>
:>> 1) Turkish sovereignty over the Bosporus and enforcement of the Montreux
:>> convention is a centerpiece of the Turkish national Identity.
:>>
:>> They don't have to tout it, you cant miss it
:>> There would be a violent overthrow of the Turkish government in moments,
:>
:> Turkish government could be overthrown only by Turkish Army. Of course
:> only for going too far Islamic way. On the other hand Turkish Army is a
:> backbone and guarantor of Western end especially US strategic relations
:> with Turkey. So don't tell us BS about Turkish Army deposing its
:> government for aiding US!
:
:If the Turkish army overthrew the Turkish government the level of shit
:coming their way would be almost indescribable.
:
Oh don't be silly! The Turkish Army has a long tradition of
suspending civilian government for the good of the nation that began
back with Attaturk. The Army is *the* stabilizing influence in
Turkish society and has been for a long, long time.
:
:If they did this to aid the USA the chances are that NATO would start to
:disintegrate.
:
They're unlikely to do it at our behest or for external political
reasons.
:
:The Turkish army, government and people all know this. And what's more
:they don't care one little bit if Russia turns Georgia into rice pudding.
:
The only sensible thing you've said so far.
:
:The USA has, as the USA found out in its invasion of Iraq, very little
:influence over Turkey, a country that has already decided that its future
:lies inside Europe.
:
Wrong. What was learned is that the US won't be blackmailed into
paying larger bribes to the Turks.
:>
:> Besides if Ukraine decided to get rid of Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol,
:> entire Russian fleet would cease to exist because Russia does not have her
:> own larger maritime ports on that sea.
:>
:
:If they try they'll get what Georgia got.
:
:Russia gets access to the Black Sea ports via treaty, break the treaty and
:they'll start shooting, just like they just did with Georgia...
:
:This is Russia's back yard, they do what they want when they want, live
:with it.
:
It's predictable that whatever happens Willie will tout the Soviet
line, discouraging any opposition to them and giving them all manner
of excuses for execrable behaviour.
Why is that, Willie?
--
"I believe that forgiving them is God's function. Our job is
simply to arrange the meeting."
-- General Norman Schwarzkopf
Fred J. McCall
:Fred J. McCall pisze:
:
You. Thank you for the further demonstration.
Goodbye.
<plonk>
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
scott s.
>
> Ever talks to Turks about the Bosporus ? I have
> They are fanatic about it.
I assume that the Convention is in essance an agreement between
Turkey and Russia (successor to USSR). I'm not sure the other
contracting parties (US is not AFAIK) are that directly interested
(well, I suppose Greece is just for general principles).
If Turkey were to allow US to transit against the convention, Russia
would have legitimate right to take action against Turkey, which
I don't think is in anybody's interest, signatory or not.
>
> Bush blew this one big time
>
He's getting missiles into Poland. Maybe this was the objective
all the time.
scott s.
.
Jack Linthicum
> Vince <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote innews:JMfpk.11$p72.5@trnddc05:
No missiles in Poland. Ever. Bush had his little goof idea and now
the price will be Georgia.
The Montreux Convention is an agreement among about 10 powers, all of
which want to see Russia or the Soviet Union bottled up inside the
Black Sea. The cost has been the creation of the Aviation Cruisers or
whatever nomenclature the Soviets stuck on those hermaphrodites that
allows them, and just them, to traverse the Straits. No one else,
above 15K Tons is going in.
William Black
> It's predictable that whatever happens Willie will tout the Soviet
> line,
'Soviet'!
How terribly old fashioned.
Just like Hines in fact...
Jim Yanik
news:Xns9AFB853A87708...@216.168.3.70:
> Vince <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote in news:JMfpk.11$p72.5@trnddc05:
>
>>
>> Ever talks to Turks about the Bosporus ? I have
>> They are fanatic about it.
>
> I assume that the Convention is in essance an agreement between
> Turkey and Russia (successor to USSR). I'm not sure the other
> contracting parties (US is not AFAIK) are that directly interested
> (well, I suppose Greece is just for general principles).
> If Turkey were to allow US to transit against the convention, Russia
> would have legitimate right to take action against Turkey, which
> I don't think is in anybody's interest, signatory or not.
>
>>
>> Bush blew this one big time
No,the Russians saw the general weakness in both the US and Europe,and took
advantage of it.Both the US and Europe have shown an unwillingness to act
decisively militarily. Europe is nearly impotent militarily and
economically.(Russia supplies much of their oil and natural gas,and is all
too willing to shut off the pipelines,like it did for Ukraine.)
Russia still has a huge military force,and the willingness to USE it
forcefully.
>>
>
> He's getting missiles into Poland. Maybe this was the objective
> all the time.
ABM -AND- Patriot missile batteries,and US military forces.
>
> scott s.
> .
>
If the US sailed a carrier group towards the Bosporus,I believe Russia
would know about it quickly,and the Strait is well within Russian naval
aviation range. A wave of Backfires would sink the carrier in the Strait.
Vince
> "scott s." <75270...@csi.xcom> wrote in
> news:Xns9AFB853A87708...@216.168.3.70:
>
>> Vince <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote in news:JMfpk.11$p72.5@trnddc05:
>>
>>> Ever talks to Turks about the Bosporus ? I have
>>> They are fanatic about it.
>> I assume that the Convention is in essance an agreement between
>> Turkey and Russia (successor to USSR).
you are wrong It is a multi national pact that is well recognized in
international law
I'm not sure the other
>> contracting parties (US is not AFAIK) are that directly interested
>> (well, I suppose Greece is just for general principles).
>> If Turkey were to allow US to transit against the convention, Russia
>> would have legitimate right to take action against Turkey, which
>> I don't think is in anybody's interest, signatory or not.
>>
>>> Bush blew this one big time
>
> No,the Russians saw the general weakness in both the US and Europe,and took
> advantage of it.Both the US and Europe have shown an unwillingness to act
> decisively militarily. Europe is nearly impotent militarily and
> economically.(Russia supplies much of their oil and natural gas,and is all
> too willing to shut off the pipelines,like it did for Ukraine.)
> Russia still has a huge military force,and the willingness to USE it
> forcefully.
>> He's getting missiles into Poland. Maybe this was the objective
>> all the time.
>
> ABM -AND- Patriot missile batteries,and US military forces.
>> scott s.
>> .
>>
>
> If the US sailed a carrier group towards the Bosporus,I believe Russia
> would know about it quickly,and the Strait is well within Russian naval
> aviation range. A wave of Backfires would sink the carrier in the Strait.
>
I agree
vince
Kerryn Offord
> On Aug 15, 7:56 am, Earl <ne...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> William Black pisze:
>>
>>>> How was it possible for Soviets to transit Kuznetsov and Kiev-class
>>>> carriers there???
>>> Because the rules are not the same if you have a Black Sea coastline..
>>> Why am I teaching you absolutely fundamental international treaty stuff?
>>> Am I talking to yet another fourteen year old child sitting at a computer in
>>> his mom's basement somewhere in the Mid West?
>> No you are simply ridiculous guy if you think in practice US would honor
>> some a hundred years old conventions. In fact US piss on international
>> Sea they would do that without doubt! Yet in this situation "gunboat
>> diplomacy" was not necessary because Russians had backed down earlier
>> i.e. after US verbal pressure.
>
> Bosporus? Actually, I would think having the pilots strike one day
> would stop any movement in the Bosporus and Dardanelles. The Strait of
> İstanbul is a narrow "S-shaped" channel of complex nature with several
> sharp turns and headlands, which prevent a proper look-out, and with
> changing currents. Such geographical and oceanographic conditions make
> the navigation, open to international shipping, very difficult and
> risky.
>
> The density of maritime traffic in Bosporus, which link Black Sea to
> Marmara Sea, averages 132 vessels daily, not including local traffic.
>
> Nimitz CVN
> Length, overall: 1,092 feet (332.85 meters)
> Flight Deck Width: 252 feet (76.8 meters)
> Beam: 134 feet (40.84 meters)
> Displacement: Approx. 97,000 tons (87,996.9 metric tons) full load
> Sp
Are there any bridges crossing the Bosporus that they'd have to sail under?
If so, what clearance height restrictions if any apply?
Kerryn Offord
> Jack Linthicum pisze:
>> You are aware that Turkey has defense mechanisms in place in the
>> Bosporus? Actually, I would think having the pilots strike one day
>> would stop any movement in the Bosporus and Dardanelles. The Strait of
>> sharp turns and headlands, which prevent a proper look-out, and with
>> changing currents. Such geographical and oceanographic conditions make
>> the navigation, open to international shipping, very difficult and
>> risky.
>>
>> The density of maritime traffic in Bosporus, which link Black Sea to
>> Marmara Sea, averages 132 vessels daily, not including local traffic.
>>
>> Nimitz CVN
>> Length, overall: 1,092 feet (332.85 meters)
>> Flight Deck Width: 252 feet (76.8 meters)
>> Beam: 134 feet (40.84 meters)
>> Displacement: Approx. 97,000 tons (87,996.9 metric tons) full load
>
> Bosporus? Nope buddy! Turks would calmly agree on that move.
>
> Of course navigation in Bosporus is difficult but obviously it would not
> be a big trouble for US Navy... :)
You mean, just like they allowed US forces to invade Iraq from their
territory?
Kerryn Offord
<SNIP>
> There are two suspension-bridges spanning the Bosphorus which connects
> Europe and Asia. Istanbul - Bosphorus suspension bridges 3 miles
> within the Strait connects Europe and Asia. It is 1074 m long between
> the legs and has a vertical clearance of 64 m over a width of 400 m
> decreasing to 58 m at each end.
<SNIP>
What's the vertical height of the US ships ? Carriers and support vessels?
(How easily can they pass under the bridges?)
Andrew Chaplin
news:48a6...@clear.net.nz...
There are two. I believe that Jack put up info to the effect that the max
height above the water is 58 metres. I suspect that presents a problem for all
current U.S. carriers.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:prtba4dud36f6o8k6...@4ax.com...
:
:> It's predictable that whatever happens Willie will tout the Soviet
:> line,
:
:'Soviet'!
:
:How terribly old fashioned.
:
Well, you do seem to be stuck there in your admiration of the
Tovarischs.
:
:Just like Hines in fact...
:
Wee Willie, you're a lot more like Hines than I will ever be, given
your inability to actually ever include any FACTS in your spew.
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates