Giant Squid!
dump...@hotmail.com
http://www.newsweek.com/id/36384>1=43001
Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
I know whales emit whalesong and natural sonar pulses that are
distinctive, but how hard (easy?) is it to tell other "biologicals"
from subs?
Fred J. McCall
:See:
:
That rather depends on who you are and what equipment you're using.
WWII is probably the worst thing that has ever happened to Atlantic
Ocean whale populations...
--
"May God have mercy upon my enemies; they will need it."
-- General George S Patton, Jr.
Ray O'Hara
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4b1q145u2c4pc3vd7...@4ax.com...
> dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> :See:
> :
> :http://www.newsweek.com/id/36384>1=43001
> :
> :Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
> :sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
> :
> :I know whales emit whalesong and natural sonar pulses that are
> :distinctive, but how hard (easy?) is it to tell other "biologicals"
> :from subs?
> :
>
> That rather depends on who you are and what equipment you're using.
>
> WWII is probably the worst thing that has ever happened to Atlantic
> Ocean whale populations...
>
whales probably learned to avoid the shipping lanes.
Peter Skelton
You have heard of evasive routing?
It's no wonder folks laugh at you when you pretend expertise.
Peter Skelton
Ray O'Hara
"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:hs5q14dsfbhlcr9gs...@4ax.com...
there is only so far one can evade. convoy routes were fairly stable.
Peter Skelton
<mary.p...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
>news:hs5q14dsfbhlcr9gs...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 3 May 2008 21:13:03 -0400, "Ray O'Hara"
>> <mary.p...@rcn.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> >news:4b1q145u2c4pc3vd7...@4ax.com...
>> >> dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> :See:
>> >> :
>> >> :http://www.newsweek.com/id/36384>1=43001
>> >> :
>> >> :Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
>> >> :sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
>> >> :
>> >> :I know whales emit whalesong and natural sonar pulses that are
>> >> :distinctive, but how hard (easy?) is it to tell other "biologicals"
>> >> :from subs?
>> >> :
>> >>
>> >> That rather depends on who you are and what equipment you're using.
>> >>
>> >> WWII is probably the worst thing that has ever happened to Atlantic
>> >> Ocean whale populations...
>> >>
>> >
>> >whales probably learned to avoid the shipping lanes.
>> >
>> You have heard of evasive routing?
>>
>> It's no wonder folks laugh at you when you pretend expertise.
>>
>> Peter Skelton
>
>
>there is only so far one can evade. convoy routes were fairly stable.
>
OFCS, would you look some of this stuff up?
(Stabilizing the convoy routes was one of the contributions of OR
in 1943, American sourced, IIRC. Befire then, not so much.)
Peter Skelton
John D Salt
[Snips]
> OFCS, would you look some of this stuff up?
>
> (Stabilizing the convoy routes was one of the contributions of OR
> in 1943, American sourced, IIRC. Befire then, not so much.)
I'd be interested to know your source for the claim that the standardization of
transatlantic convoy routes was a recommendation from American OR. I can't
find any such claim in either "The Defeat of the Enemy Attack on Shipping" or
Meigs' "Slide Rules and Submarines", nor can I recall ever seeing it it
anything else I've read on the subject.
All the best,
John.
Peter Skelton
An American suggestion substantiated by British OR. I could have
phrased that better.
I got it from Milner "The U-Boat Hunters" (Possibly the earlier
volume, my note just says "Milner".)
Peter Skelton
John D Salt
[Snips]
> I got it from Milner "The U-Boat Hunters" (Possibly the earlier
> volume, my note just says "Milner".)
Ta. Neither of his books are in my colection yet, although I did quite
like his paper on Canadian escort tactics.
[Thinks to self: Dammit, more expense.]
All the best,
John.
Dean A. Markley
> dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
>> sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
>
> would that sound even a little bit like pump noise?
>
> Juergen Nieveler
Ever feel a squid? They are "squishy" and I'd speculate they may not
generate much of a sonar return.
dump...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> "Dean A. Markley" <deanmark...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >>> Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
> >>> sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
>
> >> Good question - Squids have a water-jet propulsion system, after all...
> >> would that sound even a little bit like pump noise?
>
> > generate much of a sonar return.
Like a sub with anechoic tiles?
>
> And no sub commander will ever go active unless there's a pretty good
> reason for it.
>
> I was more thinking along the lines of how they'd sound to a passive
> sonar operator :-)
>
> Juergen Nieveler
> --
> ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
Jack Linthicum
Funny, squid seem to be the reason whales developed sonar, and that is
supposed to be why the lowest frequencies are used.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-09/uoc--msd090507.php
Andrew Robert Breen
Juergen Nieveler <juergen.nie...@arcor.de> wrote:
>dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
>> sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
>
>would that sound even a little bit like pump noise?
More to the point, can we employ a couple of these squid. There are
things turning up around here that we can't ask the snake to
eat.
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)
Fred J. McCall
:dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
:
:> Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
:> sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
:
:Good question - Squids have a water-jet propulsion system, after all...
:would that sound even a little bit like pump noise?
:
No, it wouldn't.
--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer
Fred J. McCall
:
:Ever feel a squid? They are "squishy" and I'd speculate they may not
It doesn't matter how 'squishy' they are. What matters is whether or
not they incorporate gas-filled organs (like swim bladders). It is
the air bubble that returns most of the echo, not the metal.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
PaPaPeng
<juergen.nie...@arcor.de> wrote:
>"Dean A. Markley" <deanm...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>> Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
>>>> sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
>>>
>>> Good question - Squids have a water-jet propulsion system, after all...
>>> would that sound even a little bit like pump noise?
>>>
>> Ever feel a squid? They are "squishy" and I'd speculate they may not
>> generate much of a sonar return.
>
>And no sub commander will ever go active unless there's a pretty good
>reason for it.
>
>I was more thinking along the lines of how they'd sound to a passive
>sonar operator :-)
>
>
>Juergen Nieveler
Plus subs don't go that deep.
WIKI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_squids
On September 27, 2005, Kubodera and Mori released the photographs to
the world. The photo sequence, taken at a depth of 900 meters (2953
ft) off Japan's Ogasawara Islands, shows the squid homing in on the
baited line and enveloping it in "a ball of tentacles."
Fred J. McCall
:On 4 May 2008 20:59:08 GMT, Juergen Nieveler
:<juergen.nie...@arcor.de> wrote:
:
:>"Dean A. Markley" <deanm...@comcast.net> wrote:
:>
:>>>> Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
:>>>> sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
:>>>
:>>> Good question - Squids have a water-jet propulsion system, after all...
:>>> would that sound even a little bit like pump noise?
:>>>
:>> Ever feel a squid? They are "squishy" and I'd speculate they may not
:>> generate much of a sonar return.
:>
:>And no sub commander will ever go active unless there's a pretty good
:>reason for it.
:>
:>I was more thinking along the lines of how they'd sound to a passive
:>sonar operator :-)
:>
:
:Plus subs don't go that deep.
:WIKI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_squids
:On September 27, 2005, Kubodera and Mori released the photographs to
:the world. The photo sequence, taken at a depth of 900 meters (2953
:ft) off Japan's Ogasawara Islands, shows the squid homing in on the
:baited line and enveloping it in "a ball of tentacles."
:
The Russian Alfa could apparently go that deep.
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
Roger Conroy
Well in that case you're out of luck - no air in squid.
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:oshs14ptmdool2bl6...@4ax.com...
>
> > "Dean A. Markley" <deanmark...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > :
> > :Ever feel a squid? They are "squishy" and I'd speculate they may not
> > :generate much of a sonar return.
> > :
>
> > It doesn't matter how 'squishy' they are. What matters is whether or
> > not they incorporate gas-filled organs (like swim bladders). It is
> > the air bubble that returns most of the echo, not the metal.
>
> > --
> > "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
> > truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
> > -- Thomas Jefferson
>
> Well in that case you're out of luck - no air in squid.
Check that with the whales, lower frequency bounces off squid.
Dean
Yes Fred, I understand that. But squid do not have swim bladders.
PaPaPeng
<juergen.nie...@arcor.de> wrote:
>Fred J. McCall <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>:Plus subs don't go that deep.
>>
>> The Russian Alfa could apparently go that deep.
>
>IIRC the NR-1 also could go that deep, couldn't it?
>
>Juergen Nieveler
Very interesting read on the Alfa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_class_submarine
[The relevant data to this thread is:
The hull was designed for extreme depths, below the deep sound layer
(at 1 km), but complete redesign of the plumbing and other inter-hull
systems was delayed. According to some information,[1] one of the
submarines was tested on depths up to 1300 meters but submerging to
such depths and returning caused permanent damage to equipment, which
in a few cycles would make the vessel very unreliable. This test may
have been conducted just prior to decommissioning.
Depth:
Usual operation: 350 m
Test depth: 800 m
Crush depth: possibly over 1300 m ]
As distances go 1 km = 1000 metres. Horizontally this isn't very far.
1 km horizontally gives a good idea of the distance an anti submarine
weapon has to go in depth to attack this really high tech submarine.
Thus the problem of anti-submarine defenses is not the enemy sub's
deep diving capabilities but the defender's capability to detect it
first. Diving deep below the deep sound layer gives the sub a means
to escape detection but also robs it of the means to track a target.
It cannot run fast whilst submerged for this will revela its position.
My argument goes in the direction that WOW this is one real neat piece
of advanced technology that met all its design objectives. But it
hasn't got much of an advantage over more conventionla and cheaper
nuke attack subs. Perhaps that's the reason the Alfa didn't become a
large class of submarines and the few the Russians built are
decommissioned or getting there and no new ones have been built.
Fred J. McCall
:On May 4, 7:34 pm, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> "Dean A. Markley" <deanmark...@comcast.net> wrote:
:> :
:> :Ever feel a squid? They are "squishy" and I'd speculate they may not
:> :generate much of a sonar return.
:> :
:>
:> It doesn't matter how 'squishy' they are. What matters is whether or
:> not they incorporate gas-filled organs (like swim bladders). It is
:> the air bubble that returns most of the echo, not the metal.
:>
:
:Yes Fred, I understand that. But squid do not have swim bladders.
:
Well, if you know that, Dean, why are you asking the question and
acting as if 'squishy' makes a difference?
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
Fred J. McCall
:Fred J. McCall <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:
:>:> Apparently, there's some really big ones down there. Have any
:>:> sonar operators ever mistaken them for subs?
:>:
:>:Good question - Squids have a water-jet propulsion system, after all...
:>:would that sound even a little bit like pump noise?
:>:
:> No, it wouldn't.
:
:Pity. But at least it was on-topic :-)
:
True. Even better, it was a much more intelligent question than one
might expect from, say, the likes of Eagleson...
What you'll hear on a pump is impeller vane rates, motor slot rates,
gear tones, etc. A squid doesn't have any of those.
If the pump pressure and configuration creates flow tones they will be
specific to the shape of the chamber and the pressure and viscosity of
the working fluid. The sort of soft 'chamber' that a squid has won't
generate those sorts of tones.
Roger Conroy
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cimv14h5vtqc30jhs...@4ax.com...
[speculation]
The sound of a squid's waterjet would probably resemble a vertebrate
heartbeat much more than it would a mechanical pump.
I'm not familiar with squid anatomy so I have no idea if the chamber has
valves like a vertebrate heart does, the sound of valves slamming shut
(which is the main component of a heartbeat sound) may be absent. That would
make it very quiet - a soft "woosh" of fast turbulent water flow would be
all that one might hear as muscles are silent - or very nearly so.
[/speculation]
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:cimv14h5vtqc30jhs...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > Juergen Nieveler <juergen.nieveler.nos...@arcor.de> wrote:
This group says it's "bloop"
Tuning in to a deep sea monster
LONDON, England --Scientists have revealed a mysterious recording that
they say could be the sound of a giant beast lurking in the depths of
the ocean.
Researchers have nicknamed the strange unidentified sound picked up by
undersea microphones "Bloop."
While it bears the varying frequency hallmark of marine animals, it is
far more powerful than the calls made by any creature known on Earth,
Britain's New Scientist reported on Thursday.
It is too big for a whale and one theory is that it is a deep sea
monster, possibly a many-tentacled giant squid.
In 1997, Bloop was detected by U.S. Navy "spy" sensors 3,000 miles
apart that had been put there to detect the movement of Soviet
submarines, the magazine reports.
The frequency of the sound meant it had to be much louder than any
recognised animal noise, including that produced by the largest
whales.
So is it a huge octopus? Although dead giant squid have been washed up
on beaches, and tell-tale sucker marks have been seen on whales, there
has never been a confirmed sighting of one of the elusive cephalopods
in the wild.
The largest dead squid on record measured about 60ft including the
length of its tentacles, but no one knows how big the creatures might
grow.
For years sailors have told tales of monsters of the deep including
the huge, many-tentacled kraken that could reach as high as a ship's
mainmast and sink the biggest ships.
However Phil Lobel, a marine biologist at Boston University,
Massachusetts, doubts that giant squid are the source of Bloop.
"Cephalopods have no gas-filled sac, so they have no way to make that
type of noise," he said. "Though you can never rule anything out
completely, I doubt it."
Nevertheless he agrees that the sound is most likely to be biological
in origin.
The system picking up Bloop and other strange noises from the deep is
a military relic of the Cold War.
In the 1960s the U.S. Navy set up an array of underwater microphones,
or hydrophones, around the globe to track Soviet submarines. The
network was known as SOSUS, short for Sound Surveillance System.
The listening stations lie hundreds of yards below the ocean surface,
at a depth where sound waves become trapped in a layer of water known
as the "deep sound channel".
Here temperature and pressure cause sound waves to keep travelling
without being scattered by the ocean surface or bottom.
Most of the sounds detected obviously emanate from whales, ships or
earthquakes, but some very low frequency noises have proved baffling.
Scientist Christopher Fox of the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric
Administration's Acoustic Monitoring Project at Portland, Oregon, has
given the signals names such as Train, Whistle, Slowdown, Upsweep and
even Gregorian Chant.
He told New Scientist that most can be explained by ocean currents,
volcanic activity -- Upsweep was tracked to an undersea South Pacific
mountain that had not been identified as "live."
"The sound waves are almost like voice prints. You're able to look at
the characteristics of the sound and say: 'There's a blue whale,
there's a fin whale, there's a boat, there's a humpback whale and here
comes an earthquake," he says.
But some sounds remain a mystery he says. Like Bloop -- monster of the
deep?
Find this article at:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/13/bloop
Jack Linthicum
Sound
http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/acoustics/sounds/bloop.wav
David E. Powell
> On May 6, 5:20 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Soundhttp://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/acoustics/sounds/bloop.wav
When SEALs eat Chili....
David E. Powell
> On May 6, 5:20 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Soundhttp://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/acoustics/sounds/bloop.wav
It's pretty certain people haven't found out everything that's down
there yet.....
Dean A. Markley
> Dean <dama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> :On May 4, 7:34 pm, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> :> "Dean A. Markley" <deanmark...@comcast.net> wrote:
> :> :
> :> :Ever feel a squid? They are "squishy" and I'd speculate they may not
> :> :generate much of a sonar return.
> :> :
> :>
> :> It doesn't matter how 'squishy' they are. What matters is whether or
> :> not they incorporate gas-filled organs (like swim bladders). It is
> :> the air bubble that returns most of the echo, not the metal.
> :>
> :
> :Yes Fred, I understand that. But squid do not have swim bladders.
> :
>
> Well, if you know that, Dean, why are you asking the question and
> acting as if 'squishy' makes a difference?
>
with no internal air sacks. So it seems to make sense that a bag of
water in water would not generate much of a sonar return.
Dean
Jack Linthicum
Except to something, like a whale, evolved through the millenia to
find just such squishy bags. They call it food shopping.
Eugene Griessel
Many years ago, when I was just a wee snot-nosed guttersnipe, a
Norwegian fellow from the nearby whaling station regaled us with a
lurid tale of how a sperm whale manages to get a giant squid clinging
to its head after which it dives down and bashes the squid to death
against the ocean bottom before consuming the unfortunate cephalopod.
He told the tale so convincingly, with graphic arm and hand movements
(and quaint English), that I can picture it now, in my mind's eye a
half century on. His one hand, representing the squid, clasped around
his fist, representing the sperm whale's head, being bashed into the
floor perhaps appealed to the sadist in us little boys.
In all these years I've never bothered to find out whether this was
true or not or merely the fevered imagination of someone who spent
half is life in Antarctic waters, ice-rimed eyes peering into the
spray, mouth aquiver ready to bellow the "thar she blows" (or its
Norwegian equivalent) at the sight of one of old Moby's cousins.
Perhaps nobody really knows - seeing as Giant Squids are hyper-elusive
and Sperm whales only slightly less so. Perhaps a critter-cam or two
on Sperm whales might bring enlightenment.
In my youth virtually every family I knew had a sperm whale foetus in
a jam jar as an ornament, courtesy the whaling station. Curious
little white things with discernable faces.
Eugene L Griessel
Society exists only as a mental concept; in the real world there
are only individuals.
- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
Jack Linthicum
Better than the med students with their "kids"