Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of Rutland of Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals of the 50s and 60s but has some major similarities.
-- Nik Simpson
> Op Thu, 24 May 2012 08:14:55 -0500, nik Simpson <ni...@knology.net>
> wrote:
> >Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval > >airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if > >you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
> >Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of Rutland of > >Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals of the 50s and > >60s but has some major similarities.
> I have not seen it - but from what I've heard it's one of those ho-hum
> documentaries that tries to take well-known, but probably forgotten by
> the current generation, facts and fan them into something they were
> not by a using lot of breathless hype.
It broke a decade or so ago, but nobody noticed.
-- William Black
When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's time to leave.
Op Thu, 24 May 2012 08:14:55 -0500, nik Simpson <ni...@knology.net>
wrote:
>Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval >airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if >you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
>Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of Rutland of >Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals of the 50s and >60s but has some major similarities.
I have not seen it - but from what I've heard it's one of those ho-hum
documentaries that tries to take well-known, but probably forgotten by
the current generation, facts and fan them into something they were
not by a using lot of breathless hype.
Eugene L Griessel
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use the Net
and he won't bother you for weeks.
Eugene Griessel wrote:
> Op Thu, 24 May 2012 08:14:55 -0500, nik Simpson <ni...@knology.net>
> wrote:
>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval
>> airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly
>> recommended if you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available
>> as torrent by now)
>> Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of
>> Rutland of Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals
>> of the 50s and 60s but has some major similarities.
> I have not seen it - but from what I've heard it's one of those ho-hum
> documentaries that tries to take well-known, but probably forgotten by
> the current generation, facts and fan them into something they were
> not by a using lot of breathless hype.
It will only be viewable for the next few days for those interested.
Most of this was made public about 10 years ago. But little coverage. Lord
Sempill, a Tory party Lord, the same party as Churchill during WW2, was
saved because he was a Lord and one of the "boys". Churchill personally
saved him. Many files on Sempill have been removed from the records office.
The BBC programme shows how high ranking British spies assisted in the Pearl
Harbor attack.
One was Lord Sempill. He began aiding the Japanese during the Anglo-Japanese
alliance. He played a crucial role in building up the Japanese carrier fleet
during the 1920s and 30s. In 1939 he was working for the British admiralty.
In 1941 he reported on discussions between Roosevelt and Churchill which
showed much of the American fleet was deployed in the Atlantic and could not
respond to an attack on Pearl Harbor. Despite knowledge of his treachery
becoming known, Churchill took no action against him beyond a demotion.
The other spy was Frederick Rutland who also helped to develop the Japanese
carrier fleet. Later he moved to Hawaii where he worked for US military
companies whose secrets he sent to Tokyo. In 1941 he sent photographs of
Pearl Harbor to Japan. He was detained during the war but never prosecuted.
He committed suicide after the war.
A highly decorated British flying ace spied for Japan in the years leading
up to the outbreak of the second world war, papers declassified today
reveal. Frederick Rutland, who won the Distinguished Service Order for
daring low-level attacks on German cruisers during the Battle of Jutland in
1916, was initially recruited by Japan as an adviser on naval flying
techniques.
Papers released at the Public Record Office also show Japanese naval
intelligence paid him to set up a spy base in Hawaii years before the
surprise attack on Pearl Harbour in December 1941.
Rutland first came to the notice of MI5 in 1922 when he suddenly decided to
end his glittering career and resign from the RAF. The agency received what
it called "reliable information" from a "very delicate source" - known only
as BJ - that the Japanese had secret talks with Rutland.
MI5 noted that Rutland possessed "unique knowledge of aircraft carriers and
deck landings".
GCHQ, which had already broken Japanese naval codes, intercepted a string of
communications to and from Japan's naval attache in London and naval
intelligence headquarters in Tokyo.
They paint a picture of an ineffective businessman and spy who continually
haggled over money and expenses. In the 1920s he sailed with his wife and
child to Japan where he apparently failed to land a job with Mitsubishi.
"Shinkawa" - Rutland's code name - later travelled to the US. Intriguingly,
given how the US was so surprised by Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour in
December 1941, the intercepts reveal that in 1935 Rutland told his Japanese
spymasters that "everyone" he met in America "thinks a war with Japan is
inevitable, many even say it will be their way out of a depression".
The intercepts note that Tokyo had paid Rutland to set up a "small agency in
Hawaii". A horrified MI6 - Britain's secret intelligence service which
operates abroad - discovered that Rutland had come to the attention of the
US authorities. MI6 warned of the "scandal which would be caused by the
arrest of a former Air Force officer on charges of espionage ..." MI5 made
it clear that, in its view, Rutland should be arrested.
There was no doubt that Rutland was a "paid agent of the Japanese", said a
report signed by AF Blunt - the MI5 officer Anthony Blunt, who was later
knighted for his work as surveyor of the Queen's pictures and exposed as a
Soviet agent in 1979. Rutland saved everyone's embarrassment by returning to
Britain where he was quietly interned in 1941.
nik Simpson wrote:
> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval
> airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended
> if you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by
> now)
> Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of Rutland
> of Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals of the
> 50s and 60s but has some major similarities.
> Op Thu, 24 May 2012 08:14:55 -0500, nik Simpson<ni...@knology.net>
> wrote:
>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval
>> airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if
>> you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
>> Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of Rutland of
>> Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals of the 50s and
>> 60s but has some major similarities.
> I have not seen it - but from what I've heard it's one of those ho-hum
> documentaries that tries to take well-known, but probably forgotten by
> the current generation, facts and fan them into something they were
> not by a using lot of breathless hype.
There as an element of that to it, but it's a very interesting story, and one that I was unaware of, and I consider myself fairly well informed on topics like this.
>On 5/24/2012 9:30 AM, Eugene Griessel wrote:
>> Op Thu, 24 May 2012 08:14:55 -0500, nik Simpson<ni...@knology.net>
>> wrote:
>>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval
>>> airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if
>>> you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
>>> Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of Rutland of
>>> Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals of the 50s and
>>> 60s but has some major similarities.
>> I have not seen it - but from what I've heard it's one of those ho-hum
>> documentaries that tries to take well-known, but probably forgotten by
>> the current generation, facts and fan them into something they were
>> not by a using lot of breathless hype.
>There as an element of that to it, but it's a very interesting story, >and one that I was unaware of, and I consider myself fairly well >informed on topics like this.
I'll have to wait to see it to comment - but the old fogies I
communicate with seemed to have not been impressed. TV history does
piss me off more and more - they are seemingly more dedicated to
ratings than history and if that means bending the facts a little so
be it.
Eugene L Griessel
Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.
Bay Man wrote:
> AF Blunt - the MI5 officer Anthony Blunt, who was later
> knighted for his work as surveyor of the Queen's pictures and exposed as a
> Soviet agent in 1979.
What in the world is a "surveyor of the Queen's pictures" and
what must one do to be knighted for it?
Jeff
-- Rules of Flying:
A good landing is one after which you can walk away.
A great landing is one after which they can re-use the
airplane.
<jeff.crowellSPAM...@hp.com> wrote:
>Bay Man wrote:
>> AF Blunt - the MI5 officer Anthony Blunt, who was later
>> knighted for his work as surveyor of the Queen's pictures and exposed as a
>> Soviet agent in 1979.
>What in the world is a "surveyor of the Queen's pictures" and
>what must one do to be knighted for it?
A long and complicated story - best read up on the whole affair of
Blunt, Burgess, Maclean, Philby and the rest of the Cambridge
Apostles.
In article <jplosf$fa...@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, jeff.crowellSPAM...@hp.com says...
> Bay Man wrote:
> > AF Blunt - the MI5 officer Anthony Blunt, who was later
> > knighted for his work as surveyor of the Queen's pictures and exposed as a
> > Soviet agent in 1979.
> What in the world is a "surveyor of the Queen's pictures" and
> what must one do to be knighted for it?
He's the bloke who gives professional advice to the royal household on their art collection.
These days he's a full time official with a staff but Blunt was what most people would call a part time consultant.
He got knighted for it because he was very good at it.
The royal family usually employs the best person in their field and Blunt was the Professor of the History of Art at the University of London and a director at the Courtauld Institute, which is just about the premier art history place in the world.
The royal family invariably select the best for whatever they buy and,
usually, bargain over the price (not directly, they send an underling to work out a price before the contract is laid) because the status and extra business it gives is worth it.
If the the supplier is a regular one they're given an anointment, if it's an individual, or a 'Royal Warrant' if it's a company.
If it's occasion they get a letter signed by the appropriate royal which is usually displayed framed in the 'front office'.
-- William Black
When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's time to leave.
> Op Thu, 24 May 2012 10:02:54 -0500, nik Simpson<ni...@knology.net>
> wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 9:30 AM, Eugene Griessel wrote:
>>> Op Thu, 24 May 2012 08:14:55 -0500, nik Simpson<ni...@knology.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval
>>>> airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if
>>>> you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
>>>> Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of Rutland of
>>>> Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals of the 50s and
>>>> 60s but has some major similarities.
>>> I have not seen it - but from what I've heard it's one of those ho-hum
>>> documentaries that tries to take well-known, but probably forgotten by
>>> the current generation, facts and fan them into something they were
>>> not by a using lot of breathless hype.
>> There as an element of that to it, but it's a very interesting story,
>> and one that I was unaware of, and I consider myself fairly well
>> informed on topics like this.
> I'll have to wait to see it to comment - but the old fogies I
> communicate with seemed to have not been impressed. TV history does
> piss me off more and more - they are seemingly more dedicated to
> ratings than history and if that means bending the facts a little so
> be it.
I'm with you on that Eugene, so I was quite pleasantly surprised by the program which was heavy on direct quotes from declassified documents and the like. I only noticed one obvious "History Channel" style error when they referred to HMS Eagle as the sister ship of HMS Argus. Maybe if I still lived in the UK I would have seen coverage of this when the documents were declassified C2001/2002, but I have to say it was all new and quite interesting to me. Looks like Semphill got a pass on the "old chaps" rule. Apparently Semphill avoided prosecution in the 1920s because prosecuting him would have alerted the Japanese that MI5 was reading their mail ;-) Ultimately Rutland wasn't so fortunate.
> Bay Man wrote:
>> AF Blunt - the MI5 officer Anthony Blunt, who was later
>> knighted for his work as surveyor of the Queen's pictures and exposed as >> a
>> Soviet agent in 1979.
> What in the world is a "surveyor of the Queen's pictures" and
> what must one do to be knighted for it?
>On 5/24/2012 11:37 AM, Eugene Griessel wrote:
>> Op Thu, 24 May 2012 10:02:54 -0500, nik Simpson<ni...@knology.net>
>> wrote:
>>> On 5/24/2012 9:30 AM, Eugene Griessel wrote:
>>>> Op Thu, 24 May 2012 08:14:55 -0500, nik Simpson<ni...@knology.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval
>>>>> airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if
>>>>> you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
>>>>> Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of Rutland of
>>>>> Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals of the 50s and
>>>>> 60s but has some major similarities.
>>>> I have not seen it - but from what I've heard it's one of those ho-hum
>>>> documentaries that tries to take well-known, but probably forgotten by
>>>> the current generation, facts and fan them into something they were
>>>> not by a using lot of breathless hype.
>>> There as an element of that to it, but it's a very interesting story,
>>> and one that I was unaware of, and I consider myself fairly well
>>> informed on topics like this.
>> I'll have to wait to see it to comment - but the old fogies I
>> communicate with seemed to have not been impressed. TV history does
>> piss me off more and more - they are seemingly more dedicated to
>> ratings than history and if that means bending the facts a little so
>> be it.
>I'm with you on that Eugene, so I was quite pleasantly surprised by the >program which was heavy on direct quotes from declassified documents and >the like. I only noticed one obvious "History Channel" style error when >they referred to HMS Eagle as the sister ship of HMS Argus. Maybe if I >still lived in the UK I would have seen coverage of this when the >documents were declassified C2001/2002, but I have to say it was all new >and quite interesting to me. Looks like Semphill got a pass on the "old >chaps" rule. Apparently Semphill avoided prosecution in the 1920s >because prosecuting him would have alerted the Japanese that MI5 was >reading their mail ;-) Ultimately Rutland wasn't so fortunate.
A good overall read on British/Allied intelligence vis-a-vis Japan is
Michael Smith's "The Emperors Codes".
Eugene L Griessel
Affianced. Fitted with the ankle-ring for the ball and chain.
nik Simpson wrote:
> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval > airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if > you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
> Lots of stuff I didn't know, including the inglorious fate of Rutland of > Jutland, and a spying scandal that pre-dates the scandals of the 50s and > 60s but has some major similarities.
"nik Simpson" <ni...@knology.net> wrote in message...
> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval > airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if > you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
> Lots of stuff I didn't know, ----- and a spying scandal ---
Probably not mentioned in that documentary, but another case of Singapore & British & airpower & spying is the case of active Captain Heenan spy work.
<a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"nik Simpson" <ni...@knology.net> wrote in message...
>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval >> airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if >> you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
>> Lots of stuff I didn't know, ----- and a spying scandal ---
>Probably not mentioned in that documentary, >but another case of Singapore & British & airpower & spying >is the case of active Captain Heenan spy work.
One wonders why anyone gets upset about this sort of thing. Spying is
not known as the "second oldest profession" for nothing.
It's always fascinating to see nations react with shock and horror
that someone has the temerity to spy on them while their own spies are
crawling all over their adversaries.
Eugene L Griessel
In some cultures what I do would be considered normal.
In article <jpo3uv1...@news1.newsguy.com>, a425cou...@hotmail.com says...
> "nik Simpson" <ni...@knology.net> wrote in message...
> > Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval > > airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if > > you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
> > Lots of stuff I didn't know, ----- and a spying scandal ---
> Probably not mentioned in that documentary, > but another case of Singapore & British & airpower & spying > is the case of active Captain Heenan spy work.
That account sounds a bit dodgy, especially his communicating with an alphanumeric keyboard.
If technology like that had been portable and freely available the Allied spies would have probably used something similar, and they didn't, to the extent that sometimes radio operators who couldn't speak the local language were used by SOE.
-- William Black
When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's time to leave.
> Op Fri, 25 May 2012 07:11:19 -0700, "a425couple"
> <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >"nik Simpson" <ni...@knology.net> wrote in message...
> >> Really interesting documentary on links between various British naval > >> airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly recommended if > >> you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available as torrent by now)
> >> Lots of stuff I didn't know, ----- and a spying scandal ---
> >Probably not mentioned in that documentary, > >but another case of Singapore & British & airpower & spying > >is the case of active Captain Heenan spy work.
> One wonders why anyone gets upset about this sort of thing. Spying is
> not known as the "second oldest profession" for nothing.
> It's always fascinating to see nations react with shock and horror
> that someone has the temerity to spy on them while their own spies are
> crawling all over their adversaries.
Well another poster has already used another case as a rather crude stick to hit both Winston Churchill and the Tory Party with.
While I'm no admirer of either I don't doubt their loyalty.
-- William Black
When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's time to leave.
Bill wrote:
> In article <635vr7tjk40v0ptrhvpe2pkk6128apr...@4ax.com>,
> eug...@dynagen.co.za says...
>> Op Fri, 25 May 2012 07:11:19 -0700, "a425couple"
>> <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> "nik Simpson" <ni...@knology.net> wrote in message...
>>>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British
>>>> naval airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly
>>>> recommended if you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available
>>>> as torrent by now) Lots of stuff I didn't know, ----- and a spying
>>>> scandal ---
>>> Probably not mentioned in that documentary,
>>> but another case of Singapore & British & airpower & spying
>>> is the case of active Captain Heenan spy work.
>> One wonders why anyone gets upset about this sort of thing. Spying
>> is not known as the "second oldest profession" for nothing.
>> It's always fascinating to see nations react with shock and horror
>> that someone has the temerity to spy on them while their own spies
>> are crawling all over their adversaries.
> Well another poster has already used another case as a rather crude
> stick to hit both Winston Churchill and the Tory Party with.
> Bill wrote:
> > In article <635vr7tjk40v0ptrhvpe2pkk6128apr...@4ax.com>,
> > eug...@dynagen.co.za says...
> >> Op Fri, 25 May 2012 07:11:19 -0700, "a425couple"
> >> <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> "nik Simpson" <ni...@knology.net> wrote in message...
> >>>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British
> >>>> naval airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly
> >>>> recommended if you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available
> >>>> as torrent by now) Lots of stuff I didn't know, ----- and a spying
> >>>> scandal ---
> >>> Probably not mentioned in that documentary,
> >>> but another case of Singapore & British & airpower & spying
> >>> is the case of active Captain Heenan spy work.
> >> One wonders why anyone gets upset about this sort of thing. Spying
> >> is not known as the "second oldest profession" for nothing.
> >> It's always fascinating to see nations react with shock and horror
> >> that someone has the temerity to spy on them while their own spies
> >> are crawling all over their adversaries.
> > Well another poster has already used another case as a rather crude
> > stick to hit both Winston Churchill and the Tory Party with.
> Sempill was a Tory Lord!!!!!
You have produced absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever.
> You vote Tory.
How do you know?
> You need your head seeing to.
The implication being that you don't...
-- William Black
When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's time to leave.
Bill wrote:
> In article <jpo6jb$6s...@dont-email.me>,
> xyxbayman...@xyxmailinator.xyxcomnospam says...
>> Bill wrote:
>>> In article <635vr7tjk40v0ptrhvpe2pkk6128apr...@4ax.com>,
>>> eug...@dynagen.co.za says...
>>>> Op Fri, 25 May 2012 07:11:19 -0700, "a425couple"
>>>> <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> "nik Simpson" <ni...@knology.net> wrote in message...
>>>>>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British
>>>>>> naval airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly
>>>>>> recommended if you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its
>>>>>> available as torrent by now) Lots of stuff I didn't know, -----
>>>>>> and a spying scandal ---
>>>>> Probably not mentioned in that documentary,
>>>>> but another case of Singapore & British & airpower & spying
>>>>> is the case of active Captain Heenan spy work.
>>>> One wonders why anyone gets upset about this sort of thing. Spying
>>>> is not known as the "second oldest profession" for nothing.
>>>> It's always fascinating to see nations react with shock and horror
>>>> that someone has the temerity to spy on them while their own spies
>>>> are crawling all over their adversaries.
>>> Well another poster has already used another case as a rather crude
>>> stick to hit both Winston Churchill and the Tory Party with.
>> Sempill was a Tory Lord!!!!!
> You have produced absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever.
His family even today are Tories and always have been.
> In article<jpo6jb$6s...@dont-email.me>,
> xyxbayman...@xyxmailinator.xyxcomnospam says...
>> Bill wrote:
>>> In article<635vr7tjk40v0ptrhvpe2pkk6128apr...@4ax.com>,
>>> eug...@dynagen.co.za says...
>>>> Op Fri, 25 May 2012 07:11:19 -0700, "a425couple"
>>>> <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> "nik Simpson"<ni...@knology.net> wrote in message...
>>>>>> Really interesting documentary on links between various British
>>>>>> naval airpower experts and Japan in the inter-war years. Highly
>>>>>> recommended if you can lay hands on a copy (i'm sure its available
>>>>>> as torrent by now) Lots of stuff I didn't know, ----- and a spying
>>>>>> scandal ---
>>>>> Probably not mentioned in that documentary,
>>>>> but another case of Singapore& British& airpower& spying
>>>>> is the case of active Captain Heenan spy work.
>>>> One wonders why anyone gets upset about this sort of thing. Spying
>>>> is not known as the "second oldest profession" for nothing.
>>>> It's always fascinating to see nations react with shock and horror
>>>> that someone has the temerity to spy on them while their own spies
>>>> are crawling all over their adversaries.
>>> Well another poster has already used another case as a rather crude
>>> stick to hit both Winston Churchill and the Tory Party with.
>> Sempill was a Tory Lord!!!!!
> You have produced absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever.
I don't usually find myself agreeing with Bayman, but on this he is correct, he was both a Lord and member of the conservative party with apparently some pretty far-right leaning wrt respect such tings as anti-semitism.
