Fort Hood shooter
Frogwatch
If he did this for political motives, what might the charges be?
William Hamblen
Ft Hood is a federal reservation and the shooter was active duty Army,
the shot were active duty Army, mostly, and murder is a crime under
the UCMJ, so I'd guess that the Army would get first crack at him. At
least one of the wounded was a Texas law enforcement officer, so Texas
can get in on the act if it wants to.
Bud
deem...@aol.com
> Frogwatch <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> :What jurisdiction would the shooter be tried in?
>
> Court Martial.
Can he not request a Federal Court trial?
>
> :If he did this for political motives, what might the charges be?
>
> It doesn't matter why he did it. The charge will almost certainly be
> multiple counts of murder with special circumstances.
>
>
Yep, you gotta figure 13 counts of 1st Degree and 30+ counts of
Attempted 1st Degree should be enough.
La N
He most certainly is looking at the death penalty. I wonder if he will
think it was all worth it in the end ...
- nilita
Alexander
Nope. Strictly a Federal matter as it happened on a Federal reserve.
I wonder why Texas Police were even on base? Military personal that are
wanted by other then Federal authorities are usually delivered to the
gate by Military Police. Also nonmilitary personal(Police) are required
to check all weapons at the gate. Kudo's to that Female civilian officer
that pumped 4 rounds into the killer and stopped further mayhem. I would
guess the dead Police officer also got a shot or two in before being
shot to death. Nancy Pelosi will more then likely work to ban any
weapons on american soil after this.
Frogwatch
Considering his prior statements to various people about what he
thought of non-muslims, could this be considered a "hate crime".
David E. Powell
Under civilian law yes, not sure about military proceedings.
Ray O'Hara
"Alexander" <Alex...@thegreat.org> wrote in message
news:7lk344F...@mid.individual.net...
The wingnuts will claim that Pelosi will try .
but that is to fool weak muinded dupes who vote republican
Nancy Pelosi can't overturn the Bill of Rights
Ray O'Hara
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:By4Jm.50855$Db2.45189@edtnps83...
I don't think he expected to survive when he started out yeaterday.
La N
If things had gone according to plan, about now he'd be lying in a hammock
being spoonfed by 72 virgins next to a river of wine.
Alexander
Thats a scary thought. They can only give you the death penalty for the
murders... But a hate crime... Lord have mercy....
Don Ocean
You will never convince her of that.
>
>
Alexander
He is a Muslim. That wine has to be made from Honey. Called Meade. Nasty
stuff.
>
>
La N
Anyway, it might not even be a fundamentalist Muslim thing. It could be
that he is a psychiatrist who cracked under the stress of debriefing too
many horror stories. Because if the rumours are correct (and usually they
aren't) and he was making all sorts of provocative internet postings, then
WTF happened to the FBI that they hadn't busted him before now, as allegedly
they were tracking his actions. Anyway, he's not talking, and before long
he'll be lawyered up and it will be a long time before people know "the
truth". A bigger concern, IMHO, is that already overstressed troops have
this thrown on them. The short and long term effects of this bloody act
will have implications in force morale and capability, not to mention,
political ramifications. Obama has the toughest j*b in the world right now.
As one commentator put it, "[America] is not a nation at war. It's the
troops who are at war." For most Americans these ongoing trials in Iraq and
Afghanistan are an abstract concept. For those directly involved, including
family members and loved ones, it is getting to be way too much.
- nilita
Alexander
Well one thing for sure. He is not going to be deployed to the Middle East.
>
>
Dennis
> Anyway, it might not even be a fundamentalist Muslim thing. It could
> be that he is a psychiatrist who cracked under the stress of
> debriefing too many horror stories. Because if the rumours are
> correct (and usually they aren't) and he was making all sorts of
> provocative internet postings, then WTF happened to the FBI that they
> hadn't busted him before now, as allegedly they were tracking his
> actions. Anyway, he's not talking, and before long he'll be lawyered
> up and it will be a long time before people know "the truth". A
> bigger concern, IMHO, is that already overstressed troops have this
> thrown on them.
I agree with you on that one! What's anyone seeing a psychiatrist
in the military going to think now??? It's tough enough for them in the
first place.
People often go into the mental health field due to their own
problems, and their training often doesn't resolve them sufficiently.
(Been there.)
However, I don't think I've ever heard of a therapist going postal
before!
> The short and long term effects of this bloody act
> will have implications in force morale and capability, not to mention,
> political ramifications. Obama has the toughest j*b in the world
> right now. As one commentator put it, "[America] is not a nation at
> war. It's the troops who are at war." For most Americans these
> ongoing trials in Iraq and Afghanistan are an abstract concept. For
> those directly involved, including family members and loved ones, it
> is getting to be way too much.
Amen! I honestly don't see how those guys can take it.
Even in Big Mistake Two, when everyone in America was behind it, a
lot of people cracked. That's what combat does. I saw an article
somewhere on the net, by some psychiatrist immediately post-WWII, saying
that about 220 days in combat is all even the strongest person can take.
Again, they had everyone in America behind them 100%. Now it's
different, though not like Vietnam.
Dennis
La N
> La N wrote:
>
> Even in Big Mistake Two, when everyone in America was behind it, a
> lot of people cracked. That's what combat does. I saw an article
> somewhere on the net, by some psychiatrist immediately post-WWII,
> saying that about 220 days in combat is all even the strongest person
> can take. Again, they had everyone in America behind them 100%. Now
> it's different, though not like Vietnam.
>
With Remembrance Day coming up in Canada November 11th, I've been listening
much of the day to a CBC Radio documentary featuring people narrating
stories/anecdotes/letters/memoirs of people who fought in WWI, WWII, and the
Korean War, as well as recollections of family members who suffered the loss
of their loved ones. Some, of course, survived ... and everything changed
in the family ....
I don't think "we" have seen as many suicides in the Armed Forces as are
being experienced in recent years. It's just awful.
- nilita
frank
There may be some interesting repercussions over this one.
Rolling Stone has an article on Ft Carson shootings, seems Army had a
report that multiple tours really are messing up the troops,
especially sending those back without adequate help for PTSD. Not
enough shrinks, VA has had that problem for decades. Waiting list
locally is 6 months plus.
Usually shrinks see a shrink. Part is did I do the right thing on this
case, big part is making sure your head is not going off the deep end
dealing with clients. If you don't have enough to take care of the
troops, you're not going to have enough to take care of the shrinks.
Supposedly had a not too great rating at Walter Reed. Why may or may
not ever come out.
Usually something like this happens, shortly somebody else does
something similar. Heard there was a case with Marine getting killed
just after coming back.
William Black
> If things had gone according to plan, about now he'd be lying in a hammock
> being spoonfed by 72 virgins next to a river of wine.
Do you seriously believe a psychiatrist who is also a major in the US
army is that unsophisticated?
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
William Black
> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :Anyway, it might not even be a fundamentalist Muslim thing. It could be
> :many horror stories.
>
> Yeah, he's just a poor, abused baby and it's the evil war's fault.
>
Well it's certainly not normal behaviour.
What do you suggest?
That's he's an al Quaida sleeper?
Jack Linthicum
He had problems with women, those 70 virgins should get ready for
some hard times.
Jack Linthicum
He dressed in Muslim attire before going forward and yelled Allah
Akbar before he started shooting. But on the other hand he bought a
very expensive gun and gave away his belongings.
http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009/11/security-camera-video-shows-fort-hood.html
Jim Yanik
news:7lk5m4F...@mid.individual.net:
Of COURSE it was a hate crime.The entire Islam thing is about hate.
All that stuff about PTSD and harassment is BS,just a lame attempt at
excusing his behavior. Who harasses a MAJOR?
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Jack Linthicum
> Alexander <Alexan...@thegreat.org> wrote innews:7lk5m4F...@mid.individual.net:
Everyone who sees him as representing the enemy. Born in Alexandria,
Va he claimed "Palestinian" as his nationality, got ridden (sic) for
being a "camel jockey". Believe it or not officers are just as likely
to get joshed as enlisted, you just were never there to hear it.
Jim Yanik
news:7lk9nvF...@mid.individual.net:
Yeah,you keep telling yourself that.Delude yourself even further.
>> It could
>> be that he is a psychiatrist who cracked under the stress of
>> debriefing too many horror stories. Because if the rumours are
>> correct (and usually they aren't) and he was making all sorts of
>> provocative internet postings, then WTF happened to the FBI that they
>> hadn't busted him before now, as allegedly they were tracking his
>> actions. Anyway, he's not talking, and before long he'll be lawyered
>> up and it will be a long time before people know "the truth". A
>> bigger concern, IMHO, is that already overstressed troops have this
>> thrown on them. The short and long term effects of this bloody act
>> will have implications in force morale and capability, not to
>> mention, political ramifications. Obama has the toughest j*b in the
>> world right now.
He ASKED for it.Time he began DOING it and stop politicking.
No voting "Present".
>> As one commentator put it, "[America] is not a
>> nation at war. It's the troops who are at war." For most Americans
>> these ongoing trials in Iraq and Afghanistan are an abstract concept.
>> For those directly involved, including family members and loved
>> ones, it is getting to be way too much.
>>
>> - nilita
>
>
> Well one thing for sure. He is not going to be deployed to the Middle
> East.
>>
>>
yeah Nilita,excuse all his radical postings and comments.....
It's NOT PTSD.
You don't get that from hearing OTHER peoples experiences.
William Hamblen
wrote:
>Anyway, it might not even be a fundamentalist Muslim thing. It could be
>that he is a psychiatrist who cracked under the stress of debriefing too
>many horror stories.
A lot of head shrinkers are nuts without any provocation.
Bud
Frogwatch
> Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
> :
> :All that stuff about PTSD and harassment is BS,just a lame attempt at
> :excusing his behavior. Who harasses a MAJOR?
>
> Colonels and senior sergeants.
>
> --
> "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
> truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
> -- Thomas Jefferson
A case of PPTSD (Pre-PTSD) as someone called it.
Frogwatch
LaN: You really opened yourself for an easy shot with that "Obama
having the toughest job" bit but I'll resist except to point out that
it was an irrellevant thing to say.
Jack Linthicum
? WTF?
Ray O'Hara
"Frogwatch" <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:de267c8d-a007-411a...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...> > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:48:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
>
> > the shot were active duty Army, mostly, and murder is a crime under
> > the UCMJ, so I'd guess that the Army would get first crack at him. At
> > least one of the wounded was a Texas law enforcement officer, so Texas
> > can get in on the act if it wants to.
>
> > Bud
>
> Nope. Strictly a Federal matter as it happened on a Federal reserve.
> I wonder why Texas Police were even on base? Military personal that are
> wanted by other then Federal authorities are usually delivered to the
> gate by Military Police. Also nonmilitary personal(Police) are required
> to check all weapons at the gate. Kudo's to that Female civilian officer
> that pumped 4 rounds into the killer and stopped further mayhem. I would
> guess the dead Police officer also got a shot or two in before being
> shot to death. Nancy Pelosi will more then likely work to ban any
> weapons on american soil after this.
Considering his prior statements to various people about what he
thought of non-muslims, could this be considered a "hate crime".
==========================================================================
he murdered 13 people Dave. so drop[ your Faux news phoney outrage.
I know, you don't listen to Rush, its just great minds think alike.
but they don't have to add any extra crap.
How typical of the rightwing that this is just seen as an opportunity to
score cheap political points.
Ray O'Hara
============================================================
as far as I know the actual shooter hasn't made any claims yet nor does he
have a lawyer speaking for him, he's {supposedly} still in a coma.
Ray O'Hara
"Don Ocean" <oc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7lk5p2F...@mid.individual.net...
I gather you are a Faux news Rush/Glenn Beck fan.
Ray O'Hara
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a26eb22e-0cd5-4090...@15g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
==================================================================
Did you catch Jon Stewert's spot on Glenn Beck parody the other night?
scoll down the page and the video is there.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/06/jon-stewart-does-glenn-be_n_348129.html
Ray O'Hara
"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:j5abf5l8kh8t4i6gr...@4ax.com...
> "Ray O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :"Frogwatch" <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
> What? You mean you Lefty Loons NOW decide that 'hate crimes'
> prosecution is unnecessary because the acts involved are already
> illegal?
>
> Wow, amazing how even the most purblind can sometimes find wisdom,
> isn't it?
>
you won't find any posts from me advocating hate crimes, Fred.
La N
There is not a one of us here who knows what actually happened and why.
Until the so-called "truth" comes out, we are all injecting our own
conspiracy theories, INCLUDING YOU!
Sheesh.
- nilita
La N
TRANSLATION: [Froggie] "I hate Obama with all my heart and soul!"
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
> Jim Yanik wrote:
> > Alexander <Alexan...@thegreat.org> wrote in
> >news:7lk9nvF...@mid.individual.net:
>
> >> La N wrote:
> >>> Alexander wrote:
> >>>> La N wrote:
> >>>>> Ray O'Hara wrote:
> >>>>>>news:By4Jm.50855$Db2.45189@edtnps83...
I read an account of those who were killed. Five were in the medical
or psychiatric fields. Physicians assistant, Pschiatric nurse, Nurse
practicioner, Physician's assistant, one of the wounded was a Mental
Health spec.
Jack Linthicum
> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:> :>>
> :>> LaN: You really opened yourself for an easy shot with that "Obama
> :>> having the toughest job" bit but I'll resist except to point out that
> :>> it was an irrellevant thing to say.
> :>
> :> ? WTF?
> :>
> :
> :TRANSLATION: [Froggie] "I hate Obama with all my heart and soul!"
>
> What horse manure! Perhaps you'd care to explain to us just why
> "Obama has a hard job" is relevant to a nutball losing it at Fort
> Hood?
>
> --
> "You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
> your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
> -- Mark Twain
Well, he has a job that would be impossible for you to do: he has to
act like he cares.
La N
> On Nov 7, 12:47 pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Jack Linthicum wrote:
>>
>>>> On Nov 7, 11:35 am, Frogwatch <dboh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> LaN: You really opened yourself for an easy shot with that "Obama
>>>>> having the toughest job" bit but I'll resist except to point out
>>>>> that it was an irrellevant thing to say.
>>>>
>>>> ? WTF?
>>>>
>>>
>>> TRANSLATION: [Froggie] "I hate Obama with all my heart and soul!"
>>>
>>
>> What horse manure! Perhaps you'd care to explain to us just why
>> "Obama has a hard job" is relevant to a nutball losing it at Fort
>> Hood?
>>
>> --
>> "You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
>> your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
>> -- Mark Twain
>
> Well, he has a job that would be impossible for you to do: he has to
> act like he cares.
Indeed. But, beyond that, he has to address the burning issue of troop
burnout at a time when more is being asked of the Armed Forces. *They* are
the ones fighting the wars, not us who sit comfortably in front of our
computer screens discussing what "should" and "should not" be done while we
get our war experience from newspapers and TV.
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
I think the past experience of other countries that have tried to make
Afghanistan over tells us one thing: get out. Maybe play a game of
just having troops in the cities where they can bolster the economy,
but clear out of the hinterland. This isn't 19th Century America where
you put all the bad guys on reservations.
La N
Ya think????
Like I said, I feel sorry for Obama who has inherited this mess and has to
make some decisions which, of course, will not be popular with many, no
matter what he decides.
- nilita
Ray O'Hara
>
> "Supposedly"? Are they lying about that, too?
>
> Jesus, you're beyond believe, Ray...
>
they've been known to fudge the truth.
Ray O'Hara
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hd3aia$5h5$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> La N wrote:
>
>> If things had gone according to plan, about now he'd be lying in a
>> hammock being spoonfed by 72 virgins next to a river of wine.
>
> is that unsophisticated?
>
that's no weirder than what many fundamentaist christians in the military
believe,
William Black
> On Nov 7, 3:19 am, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> La N wrote:
>>> If things had gone according to plan, about now he'd be lying in a hammock
>>> being spoonfed by 72 virgins next to a river of wine.
>> Do you seriously believe a psychiatrist who is also a major in the US
>> army is that unsophisticated?
>>
>> William Black
>>
>> "Any number under six"
>>
>> The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
>> Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
>> single handed with a quarterstaff.
>
> He dressed in Muslim attire before going forward and yelled Allah
> Akbar before he started shooting. But on the other hand he bought a
> very expensive gun and gave away his belongings.
>
I have news for you.
'Kurta pyjama' is not exclusively Muslim.
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
William Black
> William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
> :> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :>
> :> :
> :> :Anyway, it might not even be a fundamentalist Muslim thing. It could be
> :> :many horror stories.
> :>
> :> Yeah, he's just a poor, abused baby and it's the evil war's fault.
> :>
> :
> :Well it's certainly not normal behaviour.
> :
> :What do you suggest?
> :
>
> I suggest he was a mentally weak individual who probably shouldn't
> have been commissioned in the first place. People crack up and kill
> people unrelated to wars all the time.
That's remarkably sensible of you Fred.
You're to be commended...
The obvious question to ask now is 'Who picked him, and why?'
William Black
Jack Linthicum
In this case it was, there is a mosque near where the picture was
waken.
Jim Yanik
news:scsaf5ho39bi6pdf9...@4ax.com:
> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 03:37:54 GMT, "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Anyway, it might not even be a fundamentalist Muslim thing. It could be
>>that he is a psychiatrist who cracked under the stress of debriefing too
>>many horror stories.
>
> A lot of head shrinkers are nuts without any provocation.
>
> Bud
>
Yeah,he "cracked under the stress",then calmly went out and asked his Imam
for advice,then gave away his possessions over some period of time,then
went to the base and began shooting.....
Yup,sure.
It seems that people are looking for any and every EXCUSE to NOT call this
what it is;a terrorist attack. It disgusts me.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
La N
Maybe it *is*/*was* a "terrorist" attack. If so, I would think the clues
were out there, and yet no intervention took place. Shame, shame, shame
.... Refers to another observation: that the military is desperate for
mental health professionals, they'll overlook ehem "minor" indiscretions ...
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
> :>> What horse manure! Perhaps you'd care to explain to us just why
> :>> "Obama has a hard job" is relevant to a nutball losing it at Fort
> :>> Hood?
> :>>
> :>
> :> Well, he has a job that would be impossible for you to do: he has to
> :> act like he cares.
> :>
> :
>
> Usual stupid Linthicum remark. See why I don't bother with him?
Yes, precisely
La N
And, on this note, Jack, could you tell Froggie to hold his water .... I'm
going to the mall shopping ... but I'll be back to enlighten him later ...
;p
_ nilita
tankfixer
@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, ohar...@mindspring.com says...
>
> What jurisdiction would the shooter be tried in?
> If he did this for political motives, what might the charges be?
Military court.
Hung at Leavenworth
tankfixer
@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, dbo...@mindspring.com says...
>
> On Nov 6, 9:08 pm, Alexander <Alexan...@thegreat.org> wrote:
> > William Hamblen wrote:
> > > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:48:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
> > > <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> If he did this for political motives, what might the charges be?
> >
> > > the shot were active duty Army, mostly, and murder is a crime under
> > > the UCMJ, so I'd guess that the Army would get first crack at him. At
> > > least one of the wounded was a Texas law enforcement officer, so Texas
> > > can get in on the act if it wants to.
> >
> > > Bud
> >
> > Nope. Strictly a Federal matter as it happened on a Federal reserve.
> > I wonder why Texas Police were even on base? Military personal that are
> > wanted by other then Federal authorities are usually delivered to the
> > gate by Military Police. Also nonmilitary personal(Police) are required
> > to check all weapons at the gate. Kudo's to that Female civilian officer
> > that pumped 4 rounds into the killer and stopped further mayhem. I would
> > guess the dead Police officer also got a shot or two in before being
> > shot to death. Nancy Pelosi will more then likely work to ban any
> > weapons on american soil after this.
>
> Considering his prior statements to various people about what he
> thought of non-muslims, could this be considered a "hate crime".
Yes.
Hang him twice.
tankfixer
@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net says...
If that is the case then I suggest Obama needs some acting lessons..
William Black
> On Nov 7, 5:05 pm, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Jack Linthicum wrote:
>>> On Nov 7, 3:19 am, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> La N wrote:
>>>>> If things had gone according to plan, about now he'd be lying in a hammock
>>>>> being spoonfed by 72 virgins next to a river of wine.
>>>> Do you seriously believe a psychiatrist who is also a major in the US
>>>> army is that unsophisticated?
>>>> --
>>>> William Black
>>>> "Any number under six"
>>>> The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
>>>> Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
>>>> single handed with a quarterstaff.
>>> He dressed in Muslim attire before going forward and yelled Allah
>>> Akbar before he started shooting. But on the other hand he bought a
>>> very expensive gun and gave away his belongings.
>> I have news for you.
>>
>> 'Kurta pyjama' is not exclusively Muslim.
>>
>
> In this case it was, there is a mosque near where the picture was
> waken.
So what?
Wearing kurta pyjama isn't compulsory for prayers.
White clothing is normally worn by Muslims on religious 'high holy
days', but it isn't compulsory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurta
tankfixer
says...
I never feel sorry for someone who volunteers for the job.
Crying that it's "too hard" after the fact is just silly.
tankfixer
fjmc...@gmail.com says...
>
> Frogwatch <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Does it really matter? Are you going to execute him more than once,
> or what?
Pig skin leather for the noose
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Frogwatch" <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:de267c8d-a007-411a...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> > William Hamblen wrote:
> > > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:48:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
> > > <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> What jurisdiction would the shooter be tried in?
> > >> If he did this for political motives, what might the charges be?
> >
> > > Ft Hood is a federal reservation and the shooter was active duty Army,
> > > the shot were active duty Army, mostly, and murder is a crime under
> > > the UCMJ, so I'd guess that the Army would get first crack at him. At
> > > least one of the wounded was a Texas law enforcement officer, so Texas
> > > can get in on the act if it wants to.
> >
> > > Bud
> >
> > Nope. Strictly a Federal matter as it happened on a Federal reserve.
> > I wonder why Texas Police were even on base? Military personal that are
> > wanted by other then Federal authorities are usually delivered to the
> > gate by Military Police. Also nonmilitary personal(Police) are required
> > to check all weapons at the gate. Kudo's to that Female civilian officer
> > that pumped 4 rounds into the killer and stopped further mayhem. I would
> > guess the dead Police officer also got a shot or two in before being
> > shot to death. Nancy Pelosi will more then likely work to ban any
> > weapons on american soil after this.
>
> Considering his prior statements to various people about what he
> thought of non-muslims, could this be considered a "hate crime".
>
>
> he murdered 13 people Dave. so drop[ your Faux news phoney outrage.
> I know, you don't listen to Rush, its just great minds think alike.
> but they don't have to add any extra crap.
>
> How typical of the rightwing that this is just seen as an opportunity to
> score cheap political points.
So it's only "hate crimes" for some ?
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Don Ocean" <oc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:7lk5p2F...@mid.individual.net...
> > Ray O'Hara wrote:
> >> "Alexander" <Alex...@thegreat.org> wrote in message
> >> news:7lk344F...@mid.individual.net...
> >>> William Hamblen wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:48:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
> >>>> <ohar...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> What jurisdiction would the shooter be tried in?
> >>>>> If he did this for political motives, what might the charges be?
> >>>> Ft Hood is a federal reservation and the shooter was active duty Army,
> >>>> the shot were active duty Army, mostly, and murder is a crime under
> >>>> the UCMJ, so I'd guess that the Army would get first crack at him. At
> >>>> least one of the wounded was a Texas law enforcement officer, so Texas
> >>>> can get in on the act if it wants to.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bud
> >>> Nope. Strictly a Federal matter as it happened on a Federal reserve.
> >>> I wonder why Texas Police were even on base? Military personal that are
> >>> wanted by other then Federal authorities are usually delivered to the
> >>> gate by Military Police. Also nonmilitary personal(Police) are required
> >>> to check all weapons at the gate. Kudo's to that Female civilian officer
> >>> that pumped 4 rounds into the killer and stopped further mayhem. I would
> >>> guess the dead Police officer also got a shot or two in before being
> >>> shot to death. Nancy Pelosi will more then likely work to ban any
> >>> weapons on american soil after this.
> >>
> >> but that is to fool weak muinded dupes who vote republican
> >> Nancy Pelosi can't overturn the Bill of Rights
> >
> >
> > You will never convince her of that.
> >>
>
> I gather you are a Faux news Rush/Glenn Beck fan.
Have you listened to the woman ?
tankfixer
says...
>
> Ray O'Hara wrote:
> > "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:By4Jm.50855$Db2.45189@edtnps83...
> >> deem...@aol.com wrote:
> >>> On Nov 6, 2:55 pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Frogwatch <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> What jurisdiction would the shooter be tried in?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Can he not request a Federal Court trial?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> If he did this for political motives, what might the charges be?
> >>>>
> >>>> be multiple counts of murder with special circumstances.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Yep, you gotta figure 13 counts of 1st Degree and 30+ counts of
> >>> Attempted 1st Degree should be enough.
> >>
> >> He most certainly is looking at the death penalty. I wonder if he
> >> will think it was all worth it in the end ...
> >>
> >> - nilita
> >>
> >
> > I don't think he expected to survive when he started out yeaterday.
>
> If things had gone according to plan, about now he'd be lying in a hammock
> being spoonfed by 72 virgins next to a river of wine.
It's too bad no one ever told him those 72 virgins will be old shriveled
Catholic nuns...
tankfixer
willia...@hotmail.co.uk says...
>
> La N wrote:
>
> > If things had gone according to plan, about now he'd be lying in a hammock
> > being spoonfed by 72 virgins next to a river of wine.
>
> army is that unsophisticated?
I've known some majors who were not very sophisticated...
La N
He doesn't feel sorry for himself. That I do not envy him for his tough job
should be of zilch consequence. It *is* a tough job. Kudos to him for
"volunteering". Not many would.
- nilita
Dennis
> There may be some interesting repercussions over this one.
>
> Rolling Stone has an article on Ft Carson shootings, seems Army had a
> report that multiple tours really are messing up the troops,
> especially sending those back without adequate help for PTSD. Not
> enough shrinks, VA has had that problem for decades. Waiting list
> locally is 6 months plus.
Multiple tours messing people up, under these conditions?
DUHHHH!!! As I just said, I don't see how these guys are taking it at
all. Part dedication, part brainwashing, I guess.
> Usually shrinks see a shrink. Part is did I do the right thing on this
> case, big part is making sure your head is not going off the deep end
> dealing with clients. If you don't have enough to take care of the
> troops, you're not going to have enough to take care of the shrinks.
> Supposedly had a not too great rating at Walter Reed. Why may or may
> not ever come out.
I wouldn't be surprised.
My wife was speculating, this guy is a Muslim, and he hears all
these stories about horrible things happening to his co-religionists.
Also sees what it does to the guys who did it. I can see how he'd get
angry at the system.
Also consider that his family is Palestinian, from the West Bank,
Ramallah, I think. He grew up on stories about the Israelis beating up
his people, probably including members of his own family.
> Usually something like this happens, shortly somebody else does
> something similar. Heard there was a case with Marine getting killed
> just after coming back.
Yes, there's a strong copycat effect.
Dennis
La N
> frank wrote:
>
>> There may be some interesting repercussions over this one.
>>
>> Rolling Stone has an article on Ft Carson shootings, seems Army had a
>> report that multiple tours really are messing up the troops,
>> especially sending those back without adequate help for PTSD. Not
>> enough shrinks, VA has had that problem for decades. Waiting list
>> locally is 6 months plus.
>
> Multiple tours messing people up, under these conditions?
> DUHHHH!!! As I just said, I don't see how these guys are taking it at
> all. Part dedication, part brainwashing, I guess.
Not wanting to be perceived as "weak" .... not wanting to let their comrades
down .... wife and kids could use the extra money ....
There are all sorts of reasons. But, it it is inhumane to send them back
for tour after tour after tour ..... Not only do they come back damaged, but
their families become collateral damage. This in turn creates pain in the
community, which tentacles to society at large, and trickles down through
the generations.
- nilita
tankfixer
says...
Could you send him a note and mention that please ?
Since he likes to try and whine about how hard the job is..
Andrew Swallow
[snip}
>
> He ASKED for it.Time he began DOING it and stop politicking.
> No voting "Present".
The presidential equivalents are asking for another meeting and
setting up a commission to produce a report that needs reading.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
{snip}
>
> I read an account of those who were killed. Five were in the medical
> or psychiatric fields. Physicians assistant, Pschiatric nurse, Nurse
> practicioner, Physician's assistant, one of the wounded was a Mental
> Health spec.
They sound like people in and near his hospital.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
> William Hamblen <william...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:scsaf5ho39bi6pdf9...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 03:37:54 GMT, "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway, it might not even be a fundamentalist Muslim thing. It could be
>>> that he is a psychiatrist who cracked under the stress of debriefing too
>>> many horror stories.
>> A lot of head shrinkers are nuts without any provocation.
>>
>> Bud
>>
>
> Yeah,he "cracked under the stress",then calmly went out and asked his Imam
> for advice,then gave away his possessions over some period of time,then
> went to the base and began shooting.....
>
> Yup,sure.
>
>
> It seems that people are looking for any and every EXCUSE to NOT call this
> what it is;a terrorist attack. It disgusts me.
>
his defence lawyer will bring them up.
Andrew Swallow
La N
Why don't *you* send a note to your C-in-C complaining about his "whining"?
There are many of us who would be pleased to send Obama our best wishes and
hopes for strength and courage to tackle the many tasks ahead of him.
- nilita
La N
Thumbnail sketches of the victims:
Victims had different reasons for enlisting
By AMY FORLITI, Associated Press Writers Amy Forliti, Associated Press
Writers
The 13 people killed when an Army psychiatrist allegedly opened fire
on fellow soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas, included several people who
shared the same profession as the alleged shooter, a father of three
with ties to Laos whose family had a history of military service, a
civilian who had returned to work a week after suffering a heart
attack, and a psychiatric nurse who arrived at Fort Hood a day before
the shooting. Here is a look at some of the victims.
___
Michael Grant Cahill
Cahill, a 62-year-old physician assistant, suffered a heart attack two
weeks ago and returned to work at the base as a civilian employee
after taking just one week off for recovery, said his daughter Keely
Vanacker.
"He survived that. He was getting back on track, and he gets killed by
a gunman," Vanacker said, her words bare with shock and disbelief.
Cahill, of Cameron, Texas, helped treat soldiers returning from tours
of duty or preparing for deployment. Often, Vanacker said, Cahill
would walk young soldiers where they needed to go, just to make sure
they got the right treatment.
"He loved his patients, and his patients loved him," said Vanacker,
33, the oldest of Cahill's three adult children. "He just felt his job
was important."
Cahill, who was born in Spokane, Wash., had worked as a civilian
contractor at Fort Hood for about four years, after jobs in rural
health clinics and at Veterans Affairs hospitals. He and his wife,
Joleen, had been married 37 years.
Vanacker described her father as a gregarious man and a voracious
reader who could talk for hours about any subject.
The family's typical Thanksgiving dinners ended with board games and
long conversations over the table, said Vanacker, whose voice often
cracked with emotion as she remembered her father. "Now, who I am
going to talk to?"
___
Maj. Libardo Eduardo Caraveo
Caraveo, 52, of Woodbridge, Va., arrived in the United States in his
teens from Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, knowing very little English said his
son, also named Eduardo Caraveo.
He earned his doctorate in psychology from the University of Arizona
and worked with bilingual special-needs students at Tucson-area
schools before entering private practice.
His son told the Arizona Daily Star in Tucson that Caraveo had arrived
at Fort Hood on Wednesday and was preparing to deploy to Afghanistan.
Eduardo Caraveo spoke to the newspaper from his mother's Tucson home.
His father's Web site says he offered marriage seminars with a company
based in Woodbridge, Va.
___
Staff Sgt. Justin M. DeCrow
DeCrow, 32, was helping train soldiers on how to help new veterans
with paperwork and had felt safe on the Army post.
"He was on a base," his wife, Marikay DeCrow, said in a telephone
interview from the couple's home in Evans, Ga. "They should be safe
there. They should be safe."
In a statement Saturday, she said her husband's "infectious charm and
wit always put others at ease."
His wife said she wanted everyone to know what a loving man he was.
The couple have a 13-year-old daughter, Kylah.
"He was well loved by everyone," she said through sobs. "He was a
loving father and husband and he will be missed by all."
The couple were high school sweethearts who married in 1996. Marikay
DeCrow said her husband was first stationed at Fort Gordon in 2000,
and she had hoped they would reunite at their home in nearby Evans
when another post there opened up.
DeCrow was stationed in Korea from September 2008 to August. He left
in September to go to Fort Hood.
His father, Daniel DeCrow, of Fulton, Ind., said he talked to his son
last week to ask him how things were going at Fort Hood.
"As usual, the last words out of my mouth to him were that I was proud
of him," he said. "That's what I said to him every time - that I loved
him and I was proud of what he was doing. I can carry that around in
my heart."
___
Capt. John Gaffaney
Gaffaney, 56, was a psychiatric nurse who worked for San Diego County,
Calif., for more than 20 years and had arrived at Fort Hood the day
before the shooting to prepare for a deployment to Iraq.
Gaffaney, who was born in Williston, N.D., had served in the Navy and
later the California National Guard as a younger man, his family said.
After the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, he tried to sign up again for
military service. Although the Army Reserves at first declined, he got
the call about two years ago asking him to rejoin, said his close
friend and co-worker Stephanie Powell.
"He wanted to help the boys in Iraq and Afghanistan deal with the
trauma of what they were seeing," Powell said. "He was an honorable
man. He just wanted to serve in any way he can."
His family described him as an avid baseball card collector and fan of
the San Diego Padres who liked to read military novels and ride his
Harley-Davidson motorcycle.
Gaffaney supervised a team of six social workers, including Powell, at
the county's Adult Protective Services department. Ellen Schmeding,
assistant deputy director for the county's Health and Human Services
Agency, said Gaffaney was a strong leader.
He is survived by a wife and a son.
___
Spc. Frederick Greene
Greene, 29, of Mountain City, Tenn., was assigned to the 16th Signal
Company, Fort Hood, Texas.
___
Spc. Jason Dean Hunt
Hunt, 22, of Frederick, Okla., went into the military after graduating
from Tipton High School in 2005 and had gotten married just two months
ago, his mother, Gale Hunt, said. He had served 3 1/2 years in the
Army, including a stint in Iraq.
Gale Hunt said two uniformed soldiers came to her door late Thursday
night to notify her of her son's death.
Hunt, known as J.D., was "just kind of a quiet boy and a good kid,
very kind," said Kathy Gray, an administrative assistant at Tipton
Schools.
His mother said he was family oriented.
"He didn't go in for hunting or sports," Gale Hunt said. "He was a
very quiet boy who enjoyed video games."
He had re-enlisted for six years after serving his initial two-year
assignment, she said. Jason Hunt was previously stationed at Fort
Stewart in Georgia.
___
Sgt. Amy Krueger
Krueger, 29, of Kiel, Wis., joined the Army after the 2001 terrorist
attacks and had vowed to take on Osama bin Laden, her mother, Jeri
Krueger said.
Amy Krueger arrived at Fort Hood on Tuesday and was scheduled to be
sent to Afghanistan in December, her mother told the Herald Times
Reporter of Manitowoc.
Jeri Krueger recalled telling her daughter that she could not take on
bin Laden by herself.
"Watch me," her daughter replied.
Kiel High School Principal Dario Talerico told The Associated Press
that Krueger graduated from the school in 1998 and had spoken at least
once to local elementary school students about her career.
"I just remember that Amy was a very good kid, who like most kids in a
small town are just looking for what their next step in life was going
to be and she chose the military," Talerico said. "Once she got into
the military, she really connected with that kind of lifestyle and was
really proud to serve her country."
___
Pfc. Aaron Thomas Nemelka
Nemelka, 19, of the Salt Lake City suburb of West Jordan, Utah, chose
to join the Army instead of going on a mission for The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints, his uncle Christopher Nemelka said.
"As a person, Aaron was as soft and kind and as gentle as they come, a
sweetheart," his uncle said. "What I loved about the kid was his
independence of thought."
Aaron Nemelka was proud to serve and felt keenly the responsibility of
representing his nation and his family, said another uncle, Michael
Blades. Blades said several of Nemelka's relatives were in the
military, including a grandfather who served in the Korean War and
received a Purple Heart.
"He felt it was his duty to stand with them in defense of our
country," Blades said.
Nemelka enjoyed soccer, bowling and snowboarding, and was an avid fan
of the Utah Utes, he said.
The youngest of four children, Nemelka was scheduled to be deployed to
Afghanistan in January, his family said in a statement. Nemelka had
enlisted in the Army in October 2008, Utah National Guard Lt. Col.
Lisa Olsen said.
Blades said Nemelka had a tremendous love for his family and a deep
sense of duty.
"His mission is completed," Blades said, his voice breaking. "He now
serves a higher calling in heaven."
___
Pfc. Michael Pearson
Pearson, 22, of the Chicago suburb of Bolingbrook, Ill., quit what he
figured was a dead-end furniture company job to join the military
about a year ago.
Pearson's mother, Sheryll Pearson, said the 2006 Bolingbrook High
School graduate joined the military because he was eager to serve his
country and broaden his horizons.
"He was the best son in the whole world," she said. "He was my best
friend and I miss him."
His cousin, Mike Dostalek, showed reporters a poem Pearson wrote. "I
look only to the future for wisdom. To rock back and forth in my
wooden chair," the poem says.
At Pearson's family home Friday, a yellow ribbon was tied to a porch
light and a sticker stamped with American flags on the front door
read, "United we stand."
Neighbor Jessica Koerber, who was with Pearson's parents when they
received word Thursday their son had died, described him as a man who
clearly loved his family - someone who enjoyed horsing around with his
nieces and nephews, and other times playing his guitar.
"That family lost their gem," she told the AP. "He was a great kid, a
great guy. ... Mikey was one of a kind."
Sheryll Pearson said she hadn't seen her son for a year because he had
been training. She told the Tribune that when she last talked to him
on the phone two days ago, they had discussed how he would come home
for Christmas.
___
Capt. Russell Seager
Seager, 51, of Racine, Wis., was a psychiatrist who joined the Army a
few years ago because he wanted to help veterans returning to civilian
life, said his uncle, Larry Seager of Mauston.
Larry Seager said Russell Seager's death left the family stunned,
especially because the psychiatrist only wanted to help soldiers
improve their mental health.
"It's unbelievable. He goes down there to help out soldiers and then
he ... ," Seager said, his voice trailing off. "I still can't believe
it."
___
Pvt. Francheska Velez
Velez, 21, of Chicago, was pregnant and preparing to return home. A
friend of Velez's, Sasha Ramos, described her as a fun-loving person
who wrote poetry and loved dancing.
"She was like my sister," Ramos, 21, said. "She was the most fun and
happy person you could know. She never did anything wrong to anybody."
Family members said Velez had recently returned from deployment in
Iraq and had sought a lifelong career in the Army.
"She was a very happy girl and sweet," said her father, Juan Guillermo
Velez, his eyes red from crying. "She had the spirit of a child."
Ramos, who also served briefly in the military, couldn't reconcile
that her friend was killed in this country just after leaving a war
zone.
"It makes it a lot harder," she said. "This is not something a soldier
expects - to have someone in our uniform go start shooting at us."
___
Lt. Col. Juanita Warman
Warman, 55, of Havre De Grace, Md., was a military physician assistant
with two daughters and six grandchildren.
A half-sister, Kristina Rightweiser, said Warman was from a military
family. Their father, who died in 2007, was a "career military man,"
Rightweiser served in the Air Force, and Rightweiser's brother is in
the Coast Guard. The two women didn't grow up together, but
reconnected after their father's death, Rightweiser said.
Warman "loved the Army and loved her family very much," she said in a
message sent through Facebook.
Another sister, Margaret Yaggie of Roaring Branch in north-central
Pennsylvania, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that Warman attended
Pittsburgh Langley High School and put herself through school at the
University of Pittsburgh. She said Warman spent most of her career in
the military.
Warman at one point worked at the University of Pittsburgh Medical
Center. She wrote an article about using surgery to treat obesity in
adolescents. An article from 2007 listed her as working in the mental
health division of the Perry Point Veterans Affairs Medical Center in
Maryland and co-leading a health fair discussion on "Women Trauma and
Returning Veterans."
___
Pfc. Kham Xiong
Xiong, 23, of St. Paul, Minn., was a father of three whose family had
a history of military service.
Xiong's father, Chor Xiong, is a native of Laos who fought the Viet
Cong alongside the CIA in 1972; Chor's father, Kham's grandfather,
also fought with the CIA; and Kham's brother, Nelson, is a Marine
serving in Afghanistan.
Xiong's father said he was "very mad." Through sniffles and tears, he
said his son died for "no reason" and he has a hard time believing
Kham is gone.
Kham Xiong was preparing to deploy to Afghanistan, and his sister Mee
Xiong said the family would be able to understand if he would have
died in battle.
"He didn't get to go overseas and do what he's supposed to do, and
he's dead ... killed by our own people," Mee Xiong said.
Xiong was one of 11 siblings and came to the U.S. when he was just a
toddler. He grew up in California, then moved to Minnesota with the
family about 10 years ago, Chor Xiong said.
He was married and had three children ages 4, 2 and 10 months. His
wife, Shoua, said they started dating in eighth grade, and the last
time she saw her husband was Thursday morning at their Texas home.
She said he gave everyone a kiss and went to work. "It was an ordinary
day," she said. After she heard about the shooting, she tried to call
him, but never got an answer.
At 3 a.m. Friday, the doorbell rang.
"My heart dropped," she said. "I knew the reason they were here, but I
asked them to tell me he was OK."
___
Associated Press writers Jessica Gresko in Washington, Angela K. Brown
at Fort Hood, Texas, Kate Brumback in Atlanta, Deanna Martin in
Indianapolis, Desiree Hunter in Montgomery, Ala., Elliot Spagat in San
Diego, Thomas Watkins in Los Angeles, Monica Rohr in Houston, Jennifer
Dobner in Salt Lake City, Richard Green in Oklahoma City, Caryn
Rousseau in Bolingbrook, Ill., and Robert Imrie in Wausau, Wis., and
Sophia Tareen, Michael Tarm and Amy Shafer in Chicago contributed to
this report. Forliti contributed from St. Paul, Minn.
La N
Absolutely NOBODY - least of all in this group - knows the whole story.
Those who think they do know walk the way of the k00k. All we know is a
psychiatrist, a Major in the US military, gunned down a whole pile of people
at Fort Hood, only one of them being a civilian. None of us were inside the
head of this shrink, and we are all going by rumour and hearsay. If he
lives, he is going to face justice for sure. In this case, a certain death
penalty.
- nilita
Arved Sandstrom
[ SNIP ]
> Were folks during WWII really THAT much tougher than we are today?
>
We already know that they were not. Soldiers in WW2 (and WW1 and the
Civil War and the War of Independence etc etc) had all the same problems
as soldiers in Korea and Vietnam and GW1 and Iraq/Afghanistan now.
Pretty much the same proportion under equivalent conditions got messed
up in the head and manifested it in the same ways when they got home -
drinking, drug abuse, suicide, sleep disorders, domestic violence and so
forth.
What we didn't do back then was acknowledge so many problems. And quite
frankly, for _American_ troops, the wars are getting longer and less
clear-cut.
AHS
La N
Absolutely. It took a group of Vietnam War veterans to come forth and
insist that PTSD be recognized among the legitimate criteria for diagnosis
and treatment of a psychiatric disorder. This was sometime in the '80s.
And when this happened, finally it validated the thoughts, feelings,
sentiments, and frustrations of some of the oldtimers from earlier wars.
And Arved is bang on WRT missions being less clear-cut and wars longer with
multiple deployments. First of all, they are not being sent out to
"conventional" wars for which they and their predecessors have been trained.
Secondly there is not a sense that our countries (i.e. Canada and US) are at
war. It's our military people. To most civilians these wars are an
abstract happenstance, but becoming less so in time as now it is getting to
the point where most people will be affected by the tragedy of loss and
grievous injury of returning or repatronized soldiers.
- nilita
Andrew Swallow
{snip}
> Were folks during WWII really THAT much tougher than we are today?
>
Probably.
I suspect that we are using the wrong treatments. Modern ones
include compensation (money for claiming to be ill) and time
off from work. A more traditional treatment may work, such as
whipping them every week until they get better. There will
still be a few (genuine) cases of shell shock left that will
need other treatments.
Andrew Swallow
tankfixer
Because in his arrogance he has decided that anyone who didn't vote for
him has no say in the runing of the country.
Or hadn't you noticed ?
> There are many of us who would be pleased to send Obama our best wishes and
> hopes for strength and courage to tackle the many tasks ahead of him.
Do you happen to know when he intends to start with any of those tasks ?
tankfixer
am.sw...@btopenworld.com says...
Could he have just been after co-workers ?
Will have to wait and see.
La N
If I were you, I'd support the candidate running against him in the next
election. As for completing tasks, I just got this breaking news sent to my
email:
CNN Breaking News wrote:
> -- The U.S. House has passed its health-care reform bill by a 220-215
> vote.
>
>> +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
I continue to wish him the best.
- nilita
La N
btw, Tanky, I would think you'd be thrilled that Obama seems to have
continued on with many of GWB's policies.
- nilita