Sinking the America
Andy Tompkins
BY PETER DUJARDIN
247-4749
March 4, 2005
The aircraft carrier America never faced enemy fire during its service
of 32 years. But it will encounter lots of friendly fire this spring.
The Navy plans to sink the 84,000-ton vessel off North Carolina in
April - giving it the honor of being the first U.S. carrier to be sunk
since 1951 and the largest warship sunk in either war or peace.
But before the Newport News-built carrier disappears beneath the
surface and descends more than 6,000 feet to the ocean floor, the
America will have one last mission: facing several explosions to verify
computer models on the survivability of the Navy's next-generation
carrier, the CVN-21.
But not everyone agrees with the decision to sink the America. That
includes Lee McNulty, a New Jersey resident and president of the USS
America Museum Foundation. His group was trying to turn the America
into a museum, similar to the USS Midway in San Diego.
"It's heartbreaking," said McNulty, a former boatswain's mate third
class on the America during the Vietnam War, who said he's been working
four years on the project. "We don't agree with it at all. Her name
alone, and her history, would have made for a great museum."
McNulty said President John F. Kennedy personally named the ship and
termed it "America's flagship."
The America, a 1,048-foot-long conventionally powered carrier, was
decommissioned in 1996, with 18 years of service life still unspent.
The ship, also known as the CV (carrier vessel)-66, now sits in
Philadelphia but will leave April 11.
The Navy declined Thursday to reveal exactly where the America would
sink but said it would be more than 50 nautical miles - about 58 miles
- off the coast.
Before the testing, the Navy will outfit the America with lots of
sensors and cameras. It will set off a blast in the ship.
It will also set off underwater explosions a bit away from the ship,
followed by a detonation near the hull at the water line.
Then controlled explosives will bring the ship down.
Much of what the gathered data will be used for is classified, the Navy
said.
"We have had previous vulnerability testing on aircraft carriers done
by computer models, but the tests on the America will help us to
validate that data," said Pat Dolan, a spokeswoman with the Naval Sea
Systems Command, overseeing the project.
That, she said, will allow the Navy to "improve the survivability of
future aircraft carriers."
Northrop Grumman Newport News, now in the middle of detailed design on
the CVN-21, will also be involved: "We'll be using some of the data
from that testing and incorporating it into the CVN-21 design,"
shipyard spokeswoman Jerri Fuller Dickseski said.
The America isn't the first sunken carrier, of course. Several U.S.
carriers were sunk during World War II. The USS Saratoga (the CV-3) was
sunk in 1946 during an atomic bomb test. The USS Independence was sunk
during weapons testing in 1951.
But six other decommissioned carriers are still awaiting disposal.
Those include the Oriskany, the Forrestal, another Saratoga, the
Ranger, another Independence and the Constellation.
Sinking the America will allow the Navy to get rid of it at a much
lower cost than usual.
Because of new environmental regulations, tearing a warship apart in a
scrap yard has become increasingly costly.
It would cost the Navy more than $65 million to scrap the America,
Capt. Lawrence Jones, head of the Navy's inactive ships program, told
Defense News, a newsweekly of the international defense community.
But Dolan said the Navy couldn't simply sink a ship anytime it wanted.
Although the Navy has the authority under law to sink its own vessels,
she said, it can do so only as part of an approved fleet exercise or
testing like that on the America.
For the America's sinking, the Navy consulted the National Marine
Fisheries Service, part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric
Administration, she said.
The job will cost $22 million for testing and sinking.
That amount also includes cleaning tanks, getting rid of floating parts
and removing contaminants like toxic polychlorinated biphenyls, or
PCBs.
But some of those toxins will stay on the America when it descends to
the sea floor. "We won't get them all," Dolan said of the PCBs.
"Wires and insulation can contain solid PCB material, but we can't
remove every wire if it's strung through the bulkhead.
"If it's not removable without tearing the ship apart, we won't remove
it."
There's one other possible alternative to scrapping ships - turning the
vessel into an artificial reef in shallow waters easily accessible by
divers and tourists.
The Oriskany, a carrier scheduled to be sunk off Florida in 2006, will
be disposed of using that route.
But that approach requires a more complete effort to rid the ship of
contaminants before the sinking.
Andy Dingley
>
> BY PETER DUJARDIN
>
>The aircraft carrier America never faced enemy fire during its service
>of 32 years. But it will encounter lots of friendly fire this spring.
Oh, _great_ choice of wording ! 8-(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4320961.stm
Does the USA still not realise just how big an issue this regular US
habit of friendly fire on their allies is, over here in Europe ?
old hoodoo
There isn't a US "habit" of Friendly fire...that is an extremely
uninformed comment. Friendly fire, while unfortunate and tragic, is
statistically unavoidable due to the fluid and unexpected nature of
combat and or military operations. "Europe" pisses in it pants
whenever the US makes a mistake, but when you consider how much more the
US military is doing worldwide than all of Europe combined, the issue is
nothing more than the silly whining from an area of the world that
nowadays keeps its head in the sand, but once was the biggest pain in
the ass to the rest of the world. US friendly fire mistakes, compared
to all the damage that Europe has done to the world worldwide over the
last few hundred years is insignificant...and a lot of what Europe did
was intentional.
Many Europeans wonder how Americans can be so contemptuous of Europeans,
...it is this voluntarily ignorant whining and hypocrisy such as this
that really tears it with a lot of us...
Kevin Brooks
"old hoodoo" <alf...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:XCnWd.3000$Ru.2404@okepread06...
Case in point is the latest episode with the recently released Italian
hostage. Her bodyguards approach a US military roadblock/checkpoint at high
speed, ignore visual signals to stop, ignore *warning shots*, and get hit by
small arms fire...and Italy wants to blame the US troops?! Please...
Brooks
>
Dott.Piergiorgio
> Case in point is the latest episode with the recently released Italian
> hostage. Her bodyguards approach a US military roadblock/checkpoint at
> high speed, ignore visual signals to stop, ignore *warning shots*, and get
> hit by small arms fire...
Here we have seen the "highway" where the SNAFU happens: objectively it's
impossible to make speed more than 40 Km/h because of holes, abatis,
chicanes, etc. added for safety.
And the question is still under analysis: the light wounded agent is now in
our Embassy, and is in process of being debriefed, let's see.....
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Vaughn
Speak for yourself! This particular American is not contemptuous of
Europeans and (come to think of it) neither are the people around me.
Vaughn
old hoodoo
Nitpicker. :-) I would appreciate it though if you would not SNIP
my posts.
I do admit though, that I might have been high on Resin fumes when I
wrote this post a few hours ago....was repairing a hull of 1 96th model
ship without proper ventilation. I should have written "some" Americans
and should have also written "contempuous of some expressed European
attitudes" regarding US military activities.
Vaughn
>
>
> Vaughn wrote:
>> "old hoodoo" <alf...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
>> news:XCnWd.3000$Ru.2404@okepread06...
>>
>>>Many Europeans wonder how Americans can be so contemptuous of Europeans,
>>
>>
>>
>> Speak for yourself! This particular American is not contemptuous of
>> Europeans and (come to think of it) neither are the people around me.
>>
>> Vaughn
> Nitpicker. :-) I would appreciate it though if you would not SNIP my
> posts.
For clarity, and to save readers excessive scrolling, I often only repeat
what I consider the relevant portion of your post. If I accidentally snip
something that changes your intended meaning, please accept my apologies in
advance and feel free to correct me.
>I do admit though, that I might have been high on Resin fumes when I wrote
>this post a few hours ago....was repairing a hull of 1 96th model ship without
>proper ventilation. I should have written "some" Americans and should have
>also written "contempuous of some expressed European attitudes" regarding US
>military activities.
Explanation accepted. :-)
Vaughn
Kevin Brooks
"Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:LxpWd.6706$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>
>> Case in point is the latest episode with the recently released Italian
>> hostage. Her bodyguards approach a US military roadblock/checkpoint at
>> high speed, ignore visual signals to stop, ignore *warning shots*, and
>> get
>> hit by small arms fire...
>
> Here we have seen the "highway" where the SNAFU happens: objectively it's
> impossible to make speed more than 40 Km/h because of holes, abatis,
> chicanes, etc. added for safety.
Anything greater than a very slow apparoach to such a checkpoint is
foolhardy; ignoring both visual signals and warning shots is plain dumb.
Being dumb in the face of troops manning such a checkpoint is *stupid*. Then
trying to blame the same troops for shooting your vehicle is just insane.
Brooks
Dott.Piergiorgio
> Anything greater than a very slow apparoach to such a checkpoint is
> foolhardy; ignoring both visual signals and warning shots is plain dumb.
Now seems to emerge here in Italy a totally different story: seems that a
Humvee has approached the unarmored Italian SUV and have lighted the
projector and starting an intense fire immediately, without warning of
sort, and the survivors talk of a deluge of 300-400 bullets...
JustMe
"Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:HEtWd.6981$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
There's some additional discussion on this topic in the following news
groups:
alt.military.police,alt.military.retired,soc.culture.iraq,us.military.army
In a thread titled:
Could the Italians be any more incompetent?
You may want to take a peek.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> There's some additional discussion on this topic in the following news
> groups:
> alt.military.police,alt.military.retired,soc.culture.iraq,us.military.army
I'll give a peek but I think from the subject of the thread that I will be
less than happy....
best regards from italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Kevin Brooks
"Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:HEtWd.6981$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
"Sgrena's boyfriend, Pier Scolari, said she told him that the car wasn't
speeding. Sgrena subsequently told interviewers the car was traveling at
"regular speed." "
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=554726&page=2
Approaching a checkpoint at "regular speed" is not advised. It is dumb. To
the extreme. There is also some question as to whether the US military
authorities in the area were even informed of her release, or of her
transport to the airport. Yet the Italian PM wanted to lambast the US for
the affair from the get-go?
And apparently nobody is talking about whether a ransom was paid for her
release in the first place... If it was, congrats on helping finance a few
more carbombings.
Brooks
Kevin Brooks
"Kevin Brooks" <broo...@notyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:RfqdnetraLX...@adelphia.com...
>
> "Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
> message news:HEtWd.6981$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
>> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>>
>>> Anything greater than a very slow apparoach to such a checkpoint is
>>> foolhardy; ignoring both visual signals and warning shots is plain dumb.
>>
>> Now seems to emerge here in Italy a totally different story: seems that a
>> Humvee has approached the unarmored Italian SUV and have lighted the
>> projector and starting an intense fire immediately, without warning of
>> sort, and the survivors talk of a deluge of 300-400 bullets...
>
> "Sgrena's boyfriend, Pier Scolari, said she told him that the car wasn't
> speeding. Sgrena subsequently told interviewers the car was traveling at
> "regular speed." "
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=554726&page=2
>
> Approaching a checkpoint at "regular speed" is not advised. It is dumb. To
> the extreme. There is also some question as to whether the US military
> authorities in the area were even informed of her release, or of her
> transport to the airport. Yet the Italian PM wanted to lambast the US for
> the affair from the get-go?
Or this from the BBC (no idea as to veracity):
"Ms Sgrena has told Italian radio of the "rain of fire" on her car, which
she said was not going particularly fast."
"Particularly fast"??! You don't approach a checkpoint in that region going
"fast", in *any* sense of the word, period. You go *slow*, then you *stop*,
lest you have happen what happened in this case. Regrettable, but not
something you try and hang the troops for.
Brooks
JustMe
"Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:iPuWd.6992$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
I can believe that and from the list of newsgroups in the crossposting
there's every expectation of a large group of nutters. Personallt, I'll wait
for the investigation but it looks like folks are choosing up sides on
speculation.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> Approaching a checkpoint at "regular speed" is not advised. It is dumb. To
> the extreme. There is also some question as to whether the US military
> authorities in the area were even informed of her release, or of her
> transport to the airport.
Aside the speed (seems that they wasn't fired not by a checkpoint but by a
patrol, and as more and more time passes, the entire incident seems more
and more like an ambush) we Italians have learned well the importance of
being silent with US military and services, because US handling of hostage
situations was not brisk. and here we now talkking about the previous
Baldoni case, whose are more and more considered a mishap caused by US
interference whose led to the killing of the hostage.
>Yet the Italian PM wanted to lambast the US for
> the affair from the get-go?
For now the "no-politics" rule apply, but I'm evaluating a temporary
sospension of said rule for this issue.
> And apparently nobody is talking about whether a ransom was paid for her
> release in the first place... If it was, congrats on helping finance a few
> more carbombings.
Pleeaseee..... Do you know the working of middle-eastern shady markets ?
because of pocketing, donations, raking, "middleman" quotas and general
sheniganing for 1 million of dollars came only 80.000 dollars worth of
equipment....
JustMe
newspaper sympathetic to forcing the American forces out was "taken" in the
first place. I use the word taken loosly.
Kevin Brooks
"JustMe" <Jus...@nowhere.nyet> wrote in message
news:0oGdnRL5FN1...@comcast.com...
Only if you define the 3rd ID spokesman's official statement as being
"speculative". Add to that the statement of the journalist herself that they
were not going "particularly fast"...
Brooks
>
>
Kevin Brooks
"Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:klwWd.7010$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>
>> Approaching a checkpoint at "regular speed" is not advised. It is dumb.
>> To
>> the extreme. There is also some question as to whether the US military
>> authorities in the area were even informed of her release, or of her
>> transport to the airport.
>
> Aside the speed (seems that they wasn't fired not by a checkpoint but by a
> patrol, and as more and more time passes, the entire incident seems more
> and more like an ambush) we Italians have learned well the importance of
> being silent with US military and services, because US handling of hostage
> situations was not brisk. and here we now talkking about the previous
> Baldoni case, whose are more and more considered a mishap caused by US
> interference whose led to the killing of the hostage.
Now it was an "ambush"??! Geeze...
>
>>Yet the Italian PM wanted to lambast the US for
>> the affair from the get-go?
>
> For now the "no-politics" rule apply, but I'm evaluating a temporary
> sospension of said rule for this issue.
Who cares about your "rule"? The fact is that the PM began screaming
early...before he heard the lady journalist acknowledge that they hit the
checkpoint at "regular speed" (or, in another interview, she said they were
not going "particularly fast").
>
>> And apparently nobody is talking about whether a ransom was paid for her
>> release in the first place... If it was, congrats on helping finance a
>> few
>> more carbombings.
>
> Pleeaseee..... Do you know the working of middle-eastern shady markets ?
> because of pocketing, donations, raking, "middleman" quotas and general
> sheniganing for 1 million of dollars came only 80.000 dollars worth of
> equipment....
What is the going price for a carbomb these days?
Brooks
Kevin Brooks
"Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:klwWd.7010$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
Apparently, US forces either have to rescue captured Italians or your
government pays the ransoms requested:
"An Iraqi lawmaker told Belgian state TV Saturday night that he had
"nonofficial" information there was a $1 million payment... A key Italian
lawmaker said in September he believed the Italian government paid $1
million for the release of two women aid workers who were held captive for
three weeks, although Italy's foreign minister denied that. In the other
case, the three security workers and the businessman were freed in a raid in
June. Berlusconi described their liberators as "coalition forces" but Polish
authorities said it was the Americans who carried out the operation."
In the furor resulting from your PM jumping to conclusions over this case of
a car trying to transit a checkpoint at a "not particularly fast" speed, I
must have missed your government thanking the US troops who rescued those
other Italian nationals...
Brooks
JustMe
journalist has made two such statements regarding speed. So maybe sides are
being chosen based on baloney and speculation. I think I'll wait for the
results of an investigation. I think there's much more than meets the eye
here.
Fred J. McCall
Doc, if they'd put that many rounds into an SUV there wouldn't BE any
survivors.
--
"Death is my gift." -- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer
Dave Kearton
news:eahl21578t4pvhkft...@4ax.com
That's pretty much a given Fred. People who are being shot at can't be
relied upon to accurately estimate the number of rounds used.
I was only ever shot at once (in civillian life - not military) by one or
two rounds, but it SEEMED like 300.
--
Cheers
Dave Kearton
Peter Skelton
In a "deluge" of 3-400 rounds there would be 30? hits. A clip is
how many rounds? The arithmetic on both sides isn't very good.
Peter Skelton
Fred J. McCall
:In the furor resulting from your PM jumping to conclusions over this case of
:a car trying to transit a checkpoint at a "not particularly fast" speed, I
:must have missed your government thanking the US troops who rescued those
:other Italian nationals...
It is, however, pretty much the 'intellectual honesty' we've come to
expect from much of the world. When anything bad happens anywhere in
the world or anything goes wrong it is all the fault of the United
States. When someone gets saved or something good happens it is
'unidentified Coalition forces' or some such.
--
"This is a war of the unknown warriors; but let all strive
without failing in faith or in duty...."
-- Winston Churchill
Kevin Brooks
"JustMe" <Jus...@nowhere.nyet> wrote in message
>
> "Kevin Brooks" <broo...@notyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:srCdnSbxH9W...@adelphia.com...
>>
>> "JustMe" <Jus...@nowhere.nyet> wrote in message
>> news:0oGdnRL5FN1...@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
>>> message news:iPuWd.6992$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
>>>> JustMe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There's some additional discussion on this topic in the following news
>>>>> groups:
>>>>> alt.military.police,alt.military.retired,soc.culture.iraq,us.military.army
>>>>
>>>> I'll give a peek but I think from the subject of the thread that I will
>>>> be
>>>> less than happy....
>>>>
>>>> best regards from italy,
>>>> Dott. Piergiorgio.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I can believe that and from the list of newsgroups in the crossposting
>>> there's every expectation of a large group of nutters. Personallt, I'll
>>> wait for the investigation but it looks like folks are choosing up sides
>>> on speculation.
>>
>> Only if you define the 3rd ID spokesman's official statement as being
>> "speculative". Add to that the statement of the journalist herself that
>> they were not going "particularly fast"...
>>
>> Brooks
>>
> I don't know the 3rd ID has issued an "official" statement
Various news reports indicate it did issue such a statement. "A few hours
later, a statement from the US Army's 3rd Infantry Division in Baghdad said
troops fired at a speeding car that "refused to stop at a checkpoint." From
the Washington Post (as much as I dislike that as a source).
Brooks
TOliver
"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:4d3m21lkll30c29rm...@4ax.com...
Of course we don't know who fired what and how many, but.....
Most videos of patrols and check points show mgs, most of them .50
M2Brownings, mounted atop HUMVEEs, the sort of choice preferred for
anti-vehicle action. I drive a couple of "big" SUVs, Ford Expeditions, and
by any measurement 50 rounds of .50 with 20 hits would f*ck one severely,
including wounding most within. The 3-400 rounds sounds more than hogwashy,
since that's if we're talking about M16s, 10+ guys ripping off two 20 round
mags each, round mag each, a good trick . I'd also suspect a higher hit
ratio, no worse than 1 in 5 on that sort of target. It will be interesting
to see the vehicle.
The keys are not going to involve the shooting, but whether the Italians had
"pre-cleared" the trip and whether the patrol/checkpoint had been notified.
Then there's the question of why they failed to stop (if there was a warning
to stop).
TMO
JustMe
That Post article says a military spokesman and doesn't identify him or his
unit. Could have been some private that just fell off the turnip truck. I'll
stick with speculative till an investigation cuts thru the fog and
determines the facts. Both parties seem to be changing the story from their
initial position.
Kevin Brooks
"JustMe" <Jus...@nowhere.nyet> wrote in message
Not the version I read on the web. The quote I provided was cut and pasted
from the source, which was the Post.
> Could have been some private that just fell off the turnip truck. I'll
> stick with speculative till an investigation cuts thru the fog and
> determines the facts. Both parties seem to be changing the story from
> their initial position.
I have seen no indication that the US has changed its story, as of checking
the wire reports a couple of hours ago.
Brooks
Peter Skelton
If it was a road block (I have no idea what happened), I could
imagine the guy on the mg firing over, then in front, to see if
that motivated them to put on the brakes, then shooting for real.
That produces a lot of "misses." Maybe it's nonsense, but it's
what was in my mind.
Peter Skelton
Kevin Brooks
Here it is again, with a cite: "A statement released Friday by the U.S.
Army's 3rd Infantry Division in Baghdad said troops fired because the car
was "traveling at high speeds" and "refused to stop at a checkpoint."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10647-2005Mar5.html
Or from another source:
"When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which
stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others," the 3rd Infantry
Division said in a statement."
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38017
or from CBS:
"The U.S. 3rd Infantry Division, which controls Baghdad, said in an
announcement that "U.S. soldiers killed one civilian and wounded two others
when their vehicle traveling at high speeds refused to stop at a check point
here today." It said a U.S. patrol "attempted to warn the driver to stop by
hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in
front of the car," the military said in a statement. "When the driver didn't
stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle,
killing one and wounding two others." The shooting occured at 8:55 p.m.
(1755 GMT), an earliuer statement said, and "the recently freed Italian
journalist Giuliana Sgrena was an occupant in the vehicle and was apparently
injured," and was being treated by coalition force medical personnel.
http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/topstories_story_063132058.html
>
>> Could have been some private that just fell off the turnip truck.
Hell of a freakin' private you got there, if he is generating official
statements from the 3rd ID staff. Now, do you need any further proof that
the 3rd ID did indeed issue statements regarding this incident?
Brooks
Kevin Brooks
Not if he was firing the ubiquitous M2 .50 cal. The normal burst goal is a
six-to-nine round burst, which would mean a reasonably competent gunner
would have to crank out a *lot* of bursts to get that kind of volume; even
at twelve round bursts he is placing a lot of bursts downrange. This whole
thing stinks a bit--the Italian journalist has come out with about two or
three somewhat differing explanations (thus far) as to how fast they were
going, and she claims to know how many rounds were fired? The Italians are
dancing quietly around the questions of whether the US forces were informed
of the situation in regards the release (and in fact the journalist herself
has claimed that an objective was to specifically *not* let the US forces
know what was going down--God forbid we capture the bad guys, right?), and
around the issue of whether or not a ransom was paid. Color me skeptical.
Brooks
>
> Peter Skelton
JustMe
What are you using for search engine? Still, just initial reports from the
field and any determination would be speculation till all the facts are in.
Just read a report in Bloomberg.com where the reporter is now claiming her
captors warned her to be careful on the way bacg because the Americans were
out to get her. Yeah, right. It's also being reported the driver of the
Italian vehicle is claiming they were driving "slowly". The facts seem to be
a moving target here and change with the wind.
Peter Skelton
If you're trying to get attention, you make a lot of noise. The
thought I have is a burst or three wide, and two or three on -
exit vehicle. Any more volume comes from others.
This whole
>thing stinks a bit--the Italian journalist has come out with about two or
>three somewhat differing explanations (thus far) as to how fast they were
>going, and she claims to know how many rounds were fired? The Italians are
>dancing quietly around the questions of whether the US forces were informed
>of the situation in regards the release (and in fact the journalist herself
>has claimed that an objective was to specifically *not* let the US forces
>know what was going down--God forbid we capture the bad guys, right?), and
>around the issue of whether or not a ransom was paid. Color me skeptical.
>
There seems to be a lot wrong. I can't make sense of it at all,
which is why I'm guessing.
Peter Skelton
redc1c4
the thread was originally "could the Americans...." if that'll make you
happier.
redc1c4,
here to help %-)
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."
Army Officer's Guide
Kevin Brooks
"JustMe" <Jus...@nowhere.nyet> wrote in message
Holy crap... I GAVE you the website addresses! You think I created all of
those webpages in a crafty ploy to misinform you? If you INSIST on refinding
what has already been found for you...Google "3rd Infantry Division Italian
journalist". Geeze.
You can take back your insinuation that I was not being honest with you when
I gave you the actual quote the first time.
Brooks
JustMe
What in the holy hell are you smoking? I was asking how you found them, not
insinuating you made it up.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> Doc, if they'd put that many rounds into an SUV there wouldn't BE any
> survivors.
I have cited what the survivors say; seems obvious that from the dynamics of
the incident and the immediate aftermatch that they haven't the pleasure of
collect the bullets and count them....
best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> In a "deluge" of 3-400 rounds there would be 30? hits. A clip is
> how many rounds? The arithmetic on both sides isn't very good.
Interesting hyphotesis.... A single soldier will have lose the head
misunderstood the orders/misappraised the situation and can have discharged
his M-16 causing the incident.
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> If you're trying to get attention, you make a lot of noise. The
> thought I have is a burst or three wide, and two or three on -
> exit vehicle. Any more volume comes from others.
I have readed all the post about the .50 bursts. I find this interesting,
and reasonable, considering also that by cinematics, the car in the end
will stop in the general position of the warning shots, but I find more
interesting the idea posted earlier, that is of 30 bullets fired by a
single M-16 whose was magnified by the understandable panic and adrenaline
of being fired....
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Jack Love
Or are simply making up their version.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> the thread was originally "could the Americans...." if that'll make you
> happier.
Yea, I have noticed that the change of subject was of trollish nature, but i
don't find the Ur-post whose started the multi-x'posted, winded thread.
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> I googled news on "3rd Infantry" .and. spokesman and couldn't find crap.
> What are you using for search engine?
About this 3rd infantry topic, I add that here in italy are a perplexity
because someone says that also units of the 10th Mountain division have
roles in the security of the highway or the adjacent Camp Victory base. I
can't say what is what because there are *very* conflicting reports on
various newspapers.
Jack Linthicum
Another piece of evidence. All of these threads need to be drawn
together into one very off-topic discussion. I count three and perhaps
there are more hiding behind innocuous titles.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14962_Maybe_All_400_Bullets_Missed&only=yes
Fred J. McCall
:I googled news on "3rd Infantry" .and. spokesman and couldn't find crap.
:What are you using for search engine? Still, just initial reports from the
:field and any determination would be speculation till all the facts are in.
Not hard to find at all. You must not have been trying very hard.
Note that they even identify who one of the 'Military spokesman' was
(and he wasn't 3d ID), which makes it all pretty official.
" Accounts provided by U.S. military officials in Baghdad largely
suggested that responsibility for the incident lay with the Italians.
Marine Sgt. Salju Thomas, a military spokesman, said soldiers "fired
on a vehicle approaching a checkpoint in Baghdad at a high rate of
speed." Sgrena was being treated by coalition forces medical
personnel, he added."
"A few hours later, a statement from the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry
Division in Baghdad said troops fired at a speeding car that "refused
to stop at a checkpoint.""
"The statement said soldiers with the 3rd Infantry "killed one
civilian and wounded two others when their vehicle traveling at high
speeds refused to stop at a check point here today. About 9:00 pm, a
patrol in western Baghdad observed the vehicle speeding towards their
checkpoint and attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm
signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of
the car. When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the
engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two
others.""
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7315-2005Mar4.html
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
Jack Linthicum
Sgt. Salju Thomas of the Combined Press Information Center in Baghdad
is a spokesman for events in Iraq. You can get about 30 hits for events
from last October or so to the present day though Google.
Jack Linthicum
This is from the Los Angeles Times a newspaper that doesn't excite the
right wing blogheads as much as some of the Eastern papers. The
discrepancies between 3rd Infantry and 10th Mountian spokespersons
might be explained by who has that duty at the airport or in diplomatic
situations. I am certain the people who have a deeper interest in that
than I do will fill all of the areas.
"In Baghdad, Lt. Col. Clifford Kent, a spokesman for the U.S. Army's
3rd Infantry Division, said the military was "aggressively
investigating" the incident. But he declined to comment on the exact
location of the checkpoint in question, whether the military had been
informed that Sgrena's car was on its way to the airport for the
special flight or if that information had been passed down to the
relevant checkpoints."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-sgrena6mar06,0,3970474.story?coll=la-home-world
JustMe
"Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:ROLWd.8556$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
Precisely, and the smart money would be on the Americans and Italians
conducting a joint inquiry. Hopefully, that would eliminate the mistrust,
the politics and any special agenda.
JustMe
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1110152045.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Jack: Did you read the stuff on that site. The AP has it all screwed up and
has confused the "car" she was supposedly kidnapped from with the "SUV" she
was being transported in to the airport. Not only that but, the dialog talks
abour her being kidnapped from the car. My understanding was she was
kidnapped on the street while interviewing an iraqi woman. She is also
quoted as saying it was an armored vehicle which fired on the SUV. Does
anyone understand the meaning of consistancy? This business is really
starting to stink.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> Another piece of evidence. All of these threads need to be drawn
> together into one very off-topic discussion. I count three and perhaps
> there are more hiding behind innocuous titles.
OK i agree that must be centralized the discussion about Sgrena's case.
Now I'll open the thread, albeit without many things to say.....
Jack Linthicum
> starting to stink.
Good advice, remember Jessica Lynch and beware
Jack Linthicum
And I will go back to watching "The Return of the King" on TV and wait
for enough reasonable people to sort this out.
JustMe
Kevin Brooks
"JustMe" <Jus...@nowhere.nyet> wrote in message
No, you already did that, the first time I provided the QUOTE from the Post
and you responded that the Post said no such thing, it supposedly only said
"military spokesman"...when in fact it quite clearly stated "3rd Infantry
Division".
Brooks
Kevin Brooks
"Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:ROLWd.8556$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
10th ID(L) only has one reinforced brigade combat team in Iraq at present.
Their sector is just south of the 3rd ID sector, if the folks at
Globalsecurity.com are to be believed, with the 3rd ID being responsible for
Baghdad and its environs.
Brooks
mike
Dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
> Peter Skelton wrote:
>
> > In a "deluge" of 3-400 rounds there would be 30? hits. A clip is
> > how many rounds? The arithmetic on both sides isn't very good.
>
> Interesting hyphotesis.... A single soldier will have lose the head
> misunderstood the orders/misappraised the situation and can have
discharged
> his M-16 causing the incident.
Not M16, M16A4 nowadays. No full auto, just single or burst.
so they would have had to pull the trigger again and again
to empty the weapon.
**
mike
**
Dott.Piergiorgio
>> Interesting hyphotesis.... A single soldier will have lose the head
>> misunderstood the orders/misappraised the situation and can have
> discharged
>> his M-16 causing the incident.
>
> Not M16, M16A4 nowadays. No full auto, just single or burst.
> so they would have had to pull the trigger again and again
> to empty the weapon.
OK hypothesis discharged.
Thanks.
Dave Kearton
"mike" <mara...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110166890.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
|
| Not M16, M16A4 nowadays. No full auto, just single or burst.
| so they would have had to pull the trigger again and again
| to empty the weapon.
|
| **
| mike
| **
That just makes so much sense. I could never see the value in letting
your section fire off most of its ammo in a single engagement.
I was never worth a damn with an SMG, never got much of an opportunity with
an assault rifle but I can't imagine a full auto burst all hittng the side
of the same barn.
--
Cheers
Dave Kearton
Fred J. McCall
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
:> Doc, if they'd put that many rounds into an SUV there wouldn't BE any
:> survivors.
:
:I have cited what the survivors say; seems obvious that from the dynamics of
:the incident and the immediate aftermatch that they haven't the pleasure of
:collect the bullets and count them....
However, letting a little common sense intrude wouldn't hurt. Think
about magazine capacities and firing rates and then consider how many
people would have to have been firing to amount to 300-400 rounds.
It's hard enough for trained combat troops to keep track of roughly
how many rounds they've fired. Giving any credence to estimates of
number of rounds from people in the target zone is expecting a lot of
those folks.
--
"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night
to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
-- George Orwell
Fred J. McCall
:Peter Skelton wrote:
:
:> In a "deluge" of 3-400 rounds there would be 30? hits. A clip is
:> how many rounds? The arithmetic on both sides isn't very good.
:
:Interesting hyphotesis.... A single soldier will have lose the head
:misunderstood the orders/misappraised the situation and can have discharged
:his M-16 causing the incident.
Think about it, Doc. Figure a typical 30-round clip and typical
cyclic rate of fire of 600-ish rounds per minute. I'm not bothering
to be real precise, but it's not off enough to matter.
It takes around 5 seconds of fire for the weapon to run out of ammo.
How many men were supposedly firing and for how long? Unless people
were taking the time to reload (unlikely) the 300-400 round estimate
pretty much requires a dozen people firing until their weapons are
empty.
How likely does that sound to you? Sounds pretty unlikely to me.
Kevin Brooks
"Dave Kearton" <dkea...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:bBQWd.102$4P2....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
Normally, the way we were taught many years ago, the only folks on full auto
were the designated automatic riflemen in each squad (2 per normal Army
infantry squad); that went the way of the dodo when the M249's became
available. Those individuals could also be issued the detachable bipod for
the M16A1 (though I only ever used them during night weapons firing
training). The rest of the squad was supposed to be on semi-auto. As to
hitting anything, with the bipod it was not too bad, and even from a decent
prone postion without the bipod it was none too shabby--as long as you kept
it to the recommended three-to-five or so round bursts. The M16A2 solved
that by going to the same three round burst capability that they now have in
the A4.
We once had a load of extra rounds remaining after a daytime qual range, and
since turning them in was more trouble than it was worth (once the rounds
had been removed from their boxes and loaded in the magazines you were into
the loose rounds counting game with the folks at the ASP), we got to play
around with them in our soon-to-be-exchanged-for-A2's M16A1's--it was sort
of fun. You can be assured that from a sandbag-supported prone rest one can
definitely hit the side of that barn.
Brooks
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Dave Kearton
>
>
>
JustMe
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:36mn21taga1tb2r1c...@4ax.com...
> "Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote:
>
> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
> :
> :> Doc, if they'd put that many rounds into an SUV there wouldn't BE any
> :> survivors.
> :
> :I have cited what the survivors say; seems obvious that from the dynamics
> of
> :the incident and the immediate aftermatch that they haven't the pleasure
> of
> :collect the bullets and count them....
>
> However, letting a little common sense intrude wouldn't hurt. Think
> about magazine capacities and firing rates and then consider how many
> people would have to have been firing to amount to 300-400 rounds.
>
> It's hard enough for trained combat troops to keep track of roughly
> how many rounds they've fired. Giving any credence to estimates of
> number of rounds from people in the target zone is expecting a lot of
> those folks.
>
They're now saying it was a tank that fired on them
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=617569
Dott.Piergiorgio
> It's hard enough for trained combat troops to keep track of roughly
> how many rounds they've fired. Giving any credence to estimates of
> number of rounds from people in the target zone is expecting a lot of
> those folks.
Agreed.
The dynamics of the incident are a thick web and will be hard to disentangle
the web.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> They're now saying it was a tank that fired on them
Who say this ? if is the Major, perhaps a slight bit of credibility can be
given, albeit surely "the tank" (more realisticaly a bradley IFV) wasn't
firing with the 25mm, but if is Ms.Sgrena, surely is another thing,
probably an Humvee.
I can assure you that Italian Journalists cannot understand weaponry:.
during OIF a sport and fun in our Italian NG of military was pinpointing
the goofies and mistakes of our press.
Dott.Piergiorgio
> How likely does that sound to you? Sounds pretty unlikely to me.
Unlikely also to me, especially as another poster has pointed that now the
current M16A4 of US army haven't full auto, only bursts.
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:36mn21taga1tb2r1c...@4ax.com...
:> "Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote:
:>
:> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :
:> :> Doc, if they'd put that many rounds into an SUV there wouldn't BE any
:> :> survivors.
:> :
:> :I have cited what the survivors say; seems obvious that from the dynamics
:> of
:> :the incident and the immediate aftermatch that they haven't the pleasure
:> of
:> :collect the bullets and count them....
:>
:> However, letting a little common sense intrude wouldn't hurt. Think
:> about magazine capacities and firing rates and then consider how many
:> people would have to have been firing to amount to 300-400 rounds.
:>
:> It's hard enough for trained combat troops to keep track of roughly
:> how many rounds they've fired. Giving any credence to estimates of
:> number of rounds from people in the target zone is expecting a lot of
:> those folks.
:
:They're now saying it was a tank that fired on them
:http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=617569
Preposterous! A tank firing at a soft-skinned vehicle? Even using
only secondary armament 300-400 rounds would have left no survivors
(and not much of the vehicle other than beer cans).
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
Keith W
"JustMe" <Jus...@nowhere.nyet> wrote in message
>
> Fred:
>
> They're now saying it was a tank that fired on them
> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=617569
>
Give it another week and they'll claim they were nuked
Keith
JustMe
"Dott.Piergiorgio" <dott.Pierg...@SORYUfastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:P5SWd.8803$WC1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=617569
JustMe
suspect and I believe the abduction was planned so as to aid the insurgents.
JustMe
"Keith W" <keith...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d0h1ev$23t$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
I don't think I've heard more outrageous tales of heroism and daring do at
the VFW.
Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP, BLT, ETC.
>
Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be tension between the US
official policy of not negotiating with kidnappers, while the Italian
official policy is to do whatever it takes to get hostages back, even if
that means handing over wads of cash. Since the US will not negotiate with
kidnappers, our response to any kidnappings seems, to the Italians, to be a
"too slow" response to their people being kidnapped.
From my personal experience working with SHAPE/SHAEF, Italians tend to make
very light of regulations concerning automobiles and driving. The MP forces
kept a stock of gate control arms, because they figured at least once a
month some Italian NCO would try to drive right through a checkpoint. The
senior officers were even worse.
One wonders whether there might be some videotape of the incident at issue.
That might help clear matters up, but until there is an official
investigation, everything is merely speculative.
Kevin Brooks
"Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP, BLT, ETC." <aard...@anteater.net> wrote
in message news:QuWWd.41263$Ze3.34065@attbi_s51...
>
> "Kevin Brooks" <broo...@notyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:SIGdnWvtw5t...@adelphia.com...
>>
>
> Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be tension between the
> US official policy of not negotiating with kidnappers, while the Italian
> official policy is to do whatever it takes to get hostages back, even if
> that means handing over wads of cash. Since the US will not negotiate with
> kidnappers, our response to any kidnappings seems, to the Italians, to be
> a "too slow" response to their people being kidnapped.
Yet it is reported that we successfully extracted a handful of their
previous hostages. It is rather unclear as to what the Italian position is,
as they have yet to state from a governmental perspective that ransom
payment is "acceptable". Though the presence of their own official agents at
what appears to be a case of a ransomed release does seem to point in that
direction... That is troubling, because we know that paying such ransoms
does two things--it provides resources that can be used aginst us and the
nascent Iraqi government (which also opposes the payment of ransom demands),
and it encourages continued use of the kidnapping strategy. If the early
reports of the Italians intentionally hiding this ransomed release from US
and Iraqi forces are true, then it is an even larger problem--one that may
be greater than the value of having the Italians participate militarily in
Iraq in the first place; they either need to be team players, or they need
to pick up their toys and go home.
>
> From my personal experience working with SHAPE/SHAEF, Italians tend to
> make very light of regulations concerning automobiles and driving. The MP
> forces kept a stock of gate control arms, because they figured at least
> once a month some Italian NCO would try to drive right through a
> checkpoint. The senior officers were even worse.
>
> One wonders whether there might be some videotape of the incident at
> issue. That might help clear matters up, but until there is an official
> investigation, everything is merely speculative.
Well, "informed speculation" unless one is willing to contradict the
statement from the 3rd ID as to what they were responding to, and what they
had done to try and prevent the episode. The journalist's ever-changing
account of what speed they were at when it occurred would seem to bolster
their version more than anything else; her subsequent public "speculation"
that perhaps this was some kind of Bond-like sanctioned "hit" further points
to her being willing to place her agenda above whatever the facts of the
matter are.
Brooks
>
>
Kevin Brooks
"Keith W" <keith...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d0h1ev$23t$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
LOL! Undoubtedly by one of the nefaroius Bush's proposed earth pentrating
variants...
Brooks
>
> Keith
>
jeffre...@yahoo.com
dies in the line of duty, whether friendly fire or not. The grief of
the family is not mitigated by the difference.
Dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
snip
> Aside the speed (seems that they wasn't fired not by a checkpoint but
by a
> patrol, and as more and more time passes, the entire incident seems
more
> and more like an ambush) we Italians have learned well the importance
of
> being silent with US military and services, because US handling of
hostage
> situations was not brisk. and here we now talkking about the previous
> Baldoni case, whose are more and more considered a mishap caused by
US
> interference whose led to the killing of the hostage.
As for speed, coming from the land of Ferrari, I'm certain they didnt
think they were going that fast.... All my friends who served in Italy
tell me that driving in Italian traffic makes New York seem sedate..
As for the policy of not negotiating with terrorist/kidnappers, it is a
well founded policy, depending on the culture and situation. It would
seem, by US and BBC reports, kidnapping and ransoming are still a
growth industry in Europe, but the US experience is paying just begats
more and more kidnappings.
And if we're going to throw out wild, unsubstantiated accusations, how
about the kidnapping and subsequent release of a journalist, strongly
opposed to US/Italian military involvement in Iraq? You dont suppose
she was part of a plot to be 'kidnapped', make dramatic public appeals
for her life, and be released, showing the magnamity of the benevolent
muslim extremist and the futality of the Wests attempts in Iraq? Not
to mention the domestic political damage to the Italian PM by the
communnist opposition?
Seems my unsubstatianted, totally without proof, manufactured from the
whole cloth allogation is more credible then 'the eveeel US Military
Ambushes Italian Journalist' horse hooey that seems to be implied.
SNIP
> Pleeaseee..... Do you know the working of middle-eastern shady
markets ?
> because of pocketing, donations, raking, "middleman" quotas and
general
> sheniganing for 1 million of dollars came only 80.000 dollars worth
of
> equipment....
<chuckle> Yeah, a million dollars (or 6 million by one Iraqi account)
just doesnt buy you the bang for the buck you would expect.... How
much does and a dozen 152mm shells and a cellphone go for in Baghdad
these days? I'll have to check EBay.......
Cheers Doctor
I appreciated the mostly rational perspective you and a few others
bring from the 'Old Country'. Please try to keep an open mind. The
best speculation I have heard indicates the event took place at night,
on the road called the 'road of death' by troops (if indeed the 3rd ID)
only in country a month or tow, and some sourses indicated may have
been National Guard troops. That a friendly fire incident could occur
in the best of circumstances is likely. That a friendly fire incident
where not only were there language and operation equipment issues, but
a covert mission and perhaps deliberate attempt to slide it under the
US attention greatly increases the risk.
redc1c4
i like the part where the car seats are covered in spent cartridges.
how did the brass get from the firing points to the target?
BTW: and 40-50KPH is too fast to approach a checkpoint....
redc1c4,
(and live, anyway, as they proved the hard way.)
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."
Army Officer's Guide
Dott.Piergiorgio
> Cheers Doctor
> I appreciated the mostly rational perspective you and a few others
> bring from the 'Old Country'.
Thanks. But the general issue opened by the affair are interesting, because
open new perspective for Italian Military.....
Dott.Piergiorgio
> The MP forces
> kept a stock of gate control arms, because they figured at least once a
> month some Italian NCO would try to drive right through a checkpoint. The
> senior officers were even worse.
Really ????
Dott.Piergiorgio
> one that may
> be greater than the value of having the Italians participate militarily in
> Iraq in the first place; they either need to be team players, or they need
> to pick up their toys and go home.
And, perhaps this is the Italian strategy ;)