Boughten
D. Spencer Hines
Poetic English.
But if folks want to use it more commonly in everyday life and
colloquially -- well that is fine too.
It can also apply to store-bought goods as contrasted to those that are
home-made.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
James Hogg
<pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used frequently in
>Poetic English.
Please quote some poetry with "boughten".
Or do you want me to write a poem including the word, so that your
faslehood can become true?
I counted the number of times "boughten" occurs in the OED: zero.
Compare that with eight quotations illustrating the word "wanker".
>But if folks want to use it more commonly in everyday life and
>colloquially -- well that is fine too.
>
>It can also apply to store-bought goods as contrasted to those that are
>home-made.
You will find "boughten" among the errors in Paul Brians' book "Common
Errors in English". Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest:
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors
You will also find the following wonderful example of DSH English
Q: Did you buy the beer?
A: Yeah! I boughten it yesterday.
at
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Boughten>
Here it's described as dialectal (chiefly Northern U.S), which is a
euphemism for Hick Kentucky:
http://www.answers.com/topic/boughten
'Nuff said
James
Andrew Chaplin
news:59kau3hetf3cae006...@4ax.com...
"Boughten" is an English family name, likely a corruption of "Boughton"
(that's the only place I have seen that spelling, and the first diphthong is
pronounced closer to "ow" as in "cow" rather than "aw" as in "bought").
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Jack Linthicum
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:48:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
>
> >BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used frequently in
> >Poetic English.
>
> Please quote some poetry with "boughten".
> Or do you want me to write a poem including the word, so that your
> faslehood can become true?
>
> I counted the number of times "boughten" occurs in the OED: zero.
> Compare that with eight quotations illustrating the word "wanker".
>
> >But if folks want to use it more commonly in everyday life and
> >colloquially -- well that is fine too.
>
> >It can also apply to store-bought goods as contrasted to those that are
> >home-made.
>
> You will find "boughten" among the errors in Paul Brians' book "Common
> Errors in English". Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest:http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors
>
> You will also find the following wonderful example of DSH English
> Q: Did you buy the beer?
> A: Yeah! I boughten it yesterday.
>
> Here it's described as dialectal (chiefly Northern U.S), which is a
> euphemism for Hick Kentucky:http://www.answers.com/topic/boughten
>
> 'Nuff said
>
> James
If I coulda knowed I coulda goed I woulda went. Reverse of the the
usual a- prefix as in awaitin, agoin. Sergeant York.
Vince
> BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used frequently in
> Poetic English.
>
> But if folks want to use it more commonly in everyday life and
> colloquially -- well that is fine too.
>
> It can also apply to store-bought goods as contrasted to those that are
> home-made.
>
its a word (barely) , but not a verb so it does not support your point
"Boughten is Nonstandard and dialectal and has two meanings: (1)
“paid-for, or hired,” as in describing an army of mercenaries as a
boughten army; and (2) “bought at a store,” in contrast to homemade, as
in They served boughten bread (sometimes store-boughten to make even
clearer the contrast to homemade bread: store-bought is better). Whether
boughten occurs in print or speech (it is mainly Conversational), it is
almost always self-consciously dialectal, and writers and speakers
frequently accompany it with quotation marks or use intonation or other
nonverbal signals to underscore the whimsy of the
choice.
"http://www.bartleby.com/68/45/945.html
vince
D. Spencer Hines
Then roundly hoists himself with his own petar.
KAWHOMP!!!
KERSPLAT!!!
How Sweet It Is!
He's highly liable to come down with an _E. coli_ infection because of his
foul, unsanitary habits.
Coleridge writes:
"The Commune's villain friendship, And Henriot's boughten succours."
Whereas Southey details:
"Whose faith Reck'd not of boughten prayers, nor passing bell."
BOTH Those Examples Are In The Oxford English Dictionary.
Pogue Hogg proves, ONCE AGAIN, that his English Reading Comprehension is
VERY POOR.
He needs to take a Reading Comprehension For Boneheads 101 course at his
local university, REPORT GRADE and AWAIT FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS.
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
---------------------------------------------
"James Hogg" <Jas.H...@SPAM.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:59kau3hetf3cae006...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:48:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
> <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>
>>BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used frequently in
>>Poetic English.
>
> Please quote some poetry with "boughten".
> Or do you want me to write a poem including the word, so that your
> faslehood can become true?
>
> I counted the number of times "boughten" occurs in the OED: zero.
[...]
Mike Lyle
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:48:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
> <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>
>> BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used
>> frequently in Poetic English.
>
> Please quote some poetry with "boughten".
> Or do you want me to write a poem including the word, so that your
> faslehood can become true?
>
> I counted the number of times "boughten" occurs in the OED: zero.
> Compare that with eight quotations illustrating the word "wanker".
You must have access to a differently standard OED, then. The one I'm
looking at says: "boughten ... = BOUGHT ppl. a. Used poet. for the sake
of metre; otherwise only dial. and in U.S. in application to purchased
as opposed to home-made articles." I cannot, however, endorse the claim
that its use is, or even was, frequent.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
James Hogg
<pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>Pogue Hogg CONTINUES to spread his Horse Manure around the newsgroups.
>
>Then roundly hoists himself with his own petar.
>
>KAWHOMP!!!
>
>KERSPLAT!!!
>
>How Sweet It Is!
>
>He's highly liable to come down with an _E. coli_ infection because of his
>foul, unsanitary habits.
>
>Coleridge writes:
>
>"The Commune's villain friendship, And Henriot's boughten succours."
>
>Whereas Southey details:
>
>"Whose faith Reck'd not of boughten prayers, nor passing bell."
>
>BOTH Those Examples Are In The Oxford English Dictionary.
>
>Pogue Hogg proves, ONCE AGAIN, that his English Reading Comprehension is
>VERY POOR.
>
>He needs to take a Reading Comprehension For Boneheads 101 course at his
>local university, REPORT GRADE and AWAIT FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS.
(Shift key stuck again? Be careful about the sticky substances you let
fly around your keyboard.)
Very good, David.
I only looked under the verb "buy", where the form "boughten" is not
mentioned.
I was wrong, you are right. (When did YOU ever write those words?)
All credit must go to him who corrected me and pointed out that the
word is not only used by hicks, but has also been employed as a last
resort by some poets in desperate scansion difficulties. I myself
would never cheat like that.
The OED does indeed have three quotations with "boughten"
(but nine with "wanker").
So the score now is Hogg 488 -- Hines 1.
And we note that your search of the OED failed to yield any examples
of the modern illiterate coinage "wetten", otherwise you would surely
have crowed about that too.
That makes the score Hogg 489 -- Hines 1.
James
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Yes. Just like the "bough" of a tree.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
La N
And, so, what we have learned is that DSH is lazy, slothful and lowbrow, a
hero in Dogpatch, Kentucky!
- nilita
James Hogg
wrote:
And if it wasn't for me, no one would be talking to the lonely troll.
Every picture tells a story:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_frm/thread/a1b95f8a6bc81dde
I wonder what the poor medieval genealogists thought when Hines
started a thread talking to himself about the verb "wetten".
Judging by the number of stars he got, they failed to appreciate his
learned contribution to medieval genealogy.
And look how well received he was on soc.genealogy.britain when he
brought up the ancestry of John McCain:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.genealogy.britain/browse_frm/thread/48f79b6cb5ed6660/74cd04cecc018b3e#74cd04cecc018b3e
I really must stop boosting his ego by responding to him when
virtually no one else does. It's just that he gave me such a warm
welcome when I started posting, saying the nicest things about my
poetry:
"Deeeeeeeeeelightful!...
And Astutely Accurate."
(Excuse the capitals, I'm quoting exactly the way the typographically
challenged housing officer wrote it.)
James
La N
That's one of the many things I like about you, Mr. Hogg, your soft heart in
paying Hines mind.
And, just for that, I've written ... ta daaaaaa ... a *tanka* (another one
of my erstwhile specialties).
Tanka for Hogg and Hines
Half-eaten bagel
You offer the lonely soul
Store-boughten comp'ny
Balm for Kentucky ego
He sails to ports where none wait.
- nilita
Peter Moylan
> I really must stop boosting his ego by responding to him when
> virtually no one else does.
Thank you. You've probably saved yourself from a multitude of kill files
with that promise.
It was a promise, wasn't it? Pretty please?
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
La N
"Peter Moylan" <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote in message
news:13ubp3a...@corp.supernews.com...
> On 23/03/08 10:21, James Hogg wrote:
>
>> I really must stop boosting his ego by responding to him when virtually
>> no one else does.
>
> Thank you. You've probably saved yourself from a multitude of kill files
> with that promise.
>
> It was a promise, wasn't it? Pretty please?
As an interloper in this thread and someone who is usually most
wholeheartedly in agreement with you regarding DSH, I want to say that I
have benefitted in some part to this x-posting, albeit I KF'ed Hines long
ago, inasmuch some of the more interesting discussions have arisen from more
intelligent insightful posters, and I have learned a lot. As such, do not
be so harsh on Mr. Hogg because I have learned a lot about the English
language, writing et al from him and others in these kinds of threads. I
have encountered a lot of interesting/intelligent people that I wouldn't
have known otherwise. So, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water,
as they say ... ;)
>
> --
> Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
> For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Interesting website you have. And, since you have an interest in geneology,
I am wondering if your name "Moylan" is related in any way to the surname
"Moyle". No biggie ... just that my late mother hung out with a (late)
friend of hers by the name of Moyle.
- nilita
Peter Moylan
know what group I'm replying to.]
On 23/03/08 17:55, La N wrote:
> Interesting website you have. And, since you have an interest in
> geneology, I am wondering if your name "Moylan" is related in any way
> to the surname "Moyle". No biggie ... just that my late mother hung
> out with a (late) friend of hers by the name of Moyle.
Etymologically, they both come from the Irish word "maol", meaning
"bald". In fact they seem to be more closely related than that, because
the information I've seen suggests that both Moyle and Moylan are
anglicised forms of the Irish name Ó Maoláin, literally meaning
"grandson (or, more loosely, descendant) of the bald one" [1]. Since my
family is a pretty hairy bunch, that "bald" most likely should be taken
in the "tonsured" sense, i.e. I'm probably the descendant of a monk.
There's a bastard in every family.
Whether the Moyles and Moylans are really related is a trickier
question. Moyle appears to be a Wicklow name (Wicklow is on the east
coast of Ireland [2]), while the Moylans come from the west and southwest of
Ireland. Since surnames can have been created independently in different
locations, a name match doesn't necessarily imply a genetic relationship.
Thanks for the question, by the way. It's prompted me to update
the relevant web page.
[1] I'm not being sexist by writing "grandson". Irish names inflect for
gender. The feminine version is Ní Mhaoláin, which has a totally
different pronunciation. ("Mh" sounds like "f" or "v".)
[2] Between Dublin and Ballykissangel, if my memory is still working.
a.spencer3
"D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:rXcFj.120$7N1....@eagle.america.net...
> BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used frequently in
> Poetic English.
>
> But if folks want to use it more commonly in everyday life and
> colloquially -- well that is fine too.
>
> It can also apply to store-bought goods as contrasted to those that are
> home-made.
>
This does remind me of twitten.
(And, yes, I do know how it's used - there's one in our village!)
Surreyman
La N
"Peter Moylan" <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote in message
Thank you for this info. I don't care what Hines has to say about things,
but there sure are some pretty smart interesting people who take the time to
"correct" him with intriguing tidbits.
And, believe it or not, I'm posting from sci.military.naval.
- nilita
D. Spencer Hines
Or a twitting.
Only one in the village?
DSH
"a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:CCqFj.1569$4f4...@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
a.spencer3
> Yes...
>
> Or a twitting.
>
> Only one in the village?
>
> DSH
>
Nothing to do with twitten whatsoever.
Twit.
Surreyman
Brian Sharrock
"a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:CCqFj.1569$4f4...@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
>
Although many villages do have twitten (and there's one called 'The Twitten'
in mine) the closest twitten to my house actually marks the boundary between
two villages _and_ the boundary between two _counties_ (but only since
1974).
BTW; the terminal .... en marks the scandawegian/norsk/Viking origins of the
corrupted word.
--
Brian
John Briggs
A bit unlikely in Surrey and Sussex, wouldn't you say?
--
John Briggs
D. Spencer Hines
Pogue Surreyman has been triply squeezed then hoist upon his own twitten.
How Sweet It Is!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:WnwFj.15873$Ge4....@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
Michael Kuettner
"Peter Moylan" schrieb :
> [Sorry about the cross-posting. I'm in alt.usage.english, but I don't
> know what group I'm replying to.]
>
> On 23/03/08 17:55, La N wrote:
>
>> Interesting website you have. And, since you have an interest in
>> geneology, I am wondering if your name "Moylan" is related in any way
>> to the surname "Moyle". No biggie ... just that my late mother hung
>> out with a (late) friend of hers by the name of Moyle.
>
> Etymologically, they both come from the Irish word "maol", meaning
> "bald". In fact they seem to be more closely related than that, because
> the information I've seen suggests that both Moyle and Moylan are
> anglicised forms of the Irish name Ó Maoláin, literally meaning
> "grandson (or, more loosely, descendant) of the bald one" [1]. Since my
> family is a pretty hairy bunch, that "bald" most likely should be taken
> in the "tonsured" sense, i.e. I'm probably the descendant of a monk.
> There's a bastard in every family.
>
My surname means "monk", too. From "wearer of the cutta" (the monk's
robe (habit)).
Interesting, that the Irish named the monks for their tonsure while over
here they were named for their robes.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
D. Spencer Hines
Pogue Brannigan grinds it out like green sausage on St. Patrick's Day.
I never said BOUGHTEN is a verb.
Further, Pogue Brannigan would do far better to stop criticizing his betters
and learn the difference between _ITS_ and _IT'S_ lest he commit Egregious
Pratfall again.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Vince" <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:kNidna2zidoWw3ja...@comcast.com...
> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>> BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used frequently in
>> Poetic English.
>>
>> But if folks want to use it more commonly in everyday life and
>> colloquially -- well that is fine too.
>>
>> It can also apply to store-bought goods as contrasted to those that are
>> home-made.
>>
> its [sic] a word (barely) , but not a verb so it does not support your
> point
Brian Sharrock
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B7xFj.41503$ki.1...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
Aew you attributinh as _unlikely_ the existence of 'twitten' in the village
in which I live?
What is _unlikely_ in Surrey and Sussex?
Sussex was home to the court of King Canute (Knut) ruler of a Norsk empire
stretching from Norway to Sussex's coast].
Sussex's coast contains such gems as 'Fisher's Gate (=road); Easter Gate;
Westergate; - Chichester contains Olav's Church - not far from Hornet - .
Do you dispute my statement that the terminal ...en displays the
Norsk(Danish) origin of many Sussex placenames and objects?
You must live a long way from the coast and/or navigable rivers!
--
Brian
(posting from sci,military.naval _and_ South_wick_ - guess the origin of
that particular placename!
John Briggs
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:B7xFj.41503$ki.1...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>> Brian Sharrock wrote:
>>> "a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>> news:CCqFj.1569$4f4...@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
>>>>
>>>> "D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:rXcFj.120$7N1....@eagle.america.net...
>>>>> BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used
>>>>> frequently in Poetic English.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if folks want to use it more commonly in everyday life and
>>>>> colloquially -- well that is fine too.
>>>>>
>>>>> It can also apply to store-bought goods as contrasted to those
>>>>> that are home-made.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This does remind me of twitten.
>>>>
>>>> (And, yes, I do know how it's used - there's one in our village!)
>>>>
>>>> Surreyman
>>>
>>> Although many villages do have twitten (and there's one called 'The
>>> Twitten' in mine) the closest twitten to my house actually marks the
>>> boundary between two villages _and_ the boundary between two
>>> _counties_ (but only since 1974).
>>>
>>> BTW; the terminal .... en marks the scandawegian/norsk/Viking
>>> origins of the corrupted word.
>>
>> A bit unlikely in Surrey and Sussex, wouldn't you say?
>
> village in which I live?
No - "twitten" is a Sussex word.
> What is _unlikely_ in Surrey and Sussex?
Place-names of Danish (Viking) origin.
> Sussex was home to the court of King Canute (Knut) ruler of a Norsk
> empire stretching from Norway to Sussex's coast].
> Sussex's coast contains such gems as 'Fisher's Gate (=road); Easter
> Gate; Westergate; -
No, "Gate" means, er, 'gate' in all of those - *not* 'road'.
> Chichester contains Olav's Church - not far from
> Hornet - .
Where is Hornet Gate? I know St Olave's church very well - but it is now
the SPCK Bookshop.
> Do you dispute my statement that the terminal ...en
> displays the Norsk(Danish) origin of many Sussex placenames and
> objects?
Yes, of course - you catch on quickly :-)
You're not going all Phil Innes on me, are you?
> You must live a long way from the coast and/or navigable rivers!
No, not really.
--
John Briggs
Brian Sharrock
I'm afraid you're just wrong. Gate, in tthis context means "Road";
Eastergate is a village several miles from the Gate of the Roman city ... on
the EasternRoad from Chichester ; WesterGate is a similar village ,,, on the
Western Road from Chichester. BTW; there's no gate(s) [barred obstructions)
on the Fishers Road from Portus Lada to Southwick .. just an ancient road
(currently designated as the A259.
>> Chichester contains Olav's Church - not far from
>> Hornet - .
>
> Where is Hornet Gate? I know St Olave's church very well - but it is now
> the SPCK Bookshop.
Who mentioned Hornet _Gate_? You've introduced a straw man arguement!
Horn-et ( et Horn ... scandawegian articles are appended to the noun such as
hus_et / bil_en) is the horn (curved) road leading to the current cattle
market (car park) outside the Roman Wall.
>
>> Do you dispute my statement that the terminal ...en
>> displays the Norsk(Danish) origin of many Sussex placenames and
>> objects?
>
> Yes, of course - you catch on quickly :-)
Boasting of yoyr ignorance is unattractive :)
>
> You're not going all Phil Innes on me, are you?
>
>> You must live a long way from the coast and/or navigable rivers!
>
> No, not really.
> --
> John Briggs
>
--
Brian
John Briggs
You *are* doing a Phil Innes - you are making stuff up. Please don't do it.
I would refer you (inter alia) to A.D. Mills, A Dictionary of English
Place-Names. It's OE geat - 'gate or gap'.
>>> Chichester contains Olav's Church - not far from
>>> Hornet - .
>>
>> Where is Hornet Gate? I know St Olave's church very well - but it
>> is now the SPCK Bookshop.
>
> Who mentioned Hornet _Gate_? You've introduced a straw man arguement!
> Horn-et ( et Horn ... scandawegian articles are appended to the noun
> such as hus_et / bil_en) is the horn (curved) road leading to the
> current cattle market (car park) outside the Roman Wall.
OK, it's "The Hornet" - it's outside the walls, not curved, not particularly
close to the cattle market (that's "Market Road") and nowhere near St
Olave's. It's probably a modern name. There's certainly no need to drag in
imaginary Scandinavians.
>>> Do you dispute my statement that the terminal ...en
>>> displays the Norsk(Danish) origin of many Sussex placenames and
>>> objects?
>>
>> Yes, of course - you catch on quickly :-)
>
> Boasting of yoyr ignorance is unattractive :)
In the circumstances...
Mike Lyle
>> Brian Sharrock wrote:
[...]
>>> What is _unlikely_ in Surrey and Sussex?
>>
>> Place-names of Danish (Viking) origin.
>>
>>> Sussex was home to the court of King Canute (Knut) ruler of a Norsk
>>> empire stretching from Norway to Sussex's coast].
>>> Sussex's coast contains such gems as 'Fisher's Gate (=road); Easter
>>> Gate; Westergate; -
>>
>> No, "Gate" means, er, 'gate' in all of those - *not* 'road'.
>>
>
> I'm afraid you're just wrong. Gate, in tthis context means "Road";
> Eastergate is a village several miles from the Gate of the Roman city
> ... on the EasternRoad from Chichester ; WesterGate is a similar
> village ,,, on the Western Road from Chichester. BTW; there's no
> gate(s) [barred obstructions) on the Fishers Road from Portus Lada to
> Southwick .. just an ancient road (currently designated as the A259.
>
>>> Chichester contains Olav's Church - not far from
>>> Hornet - .
>>
>> Where is Hornet Gate? I know St Olave's church very well - but it
>> is now the SPCK Bookshop.
>
> Who mentioned Hornet _Gate_? You've introduced a straw man arguement!
> Horn-et ( et Horn ... scandawegian articles are appended to the noun
> such as hus_et / bil_en) is the horn (curved) road leading to the
> current cattle market (car park) outside the Roman Wall.
>
>>
>>> Do you dispute my statement that the terminal ...en
>>> displays the Norsk(Danish) origin of many Sussex placenames and
>>> objects?
OED says of "twitten": "[Perh. related to LG. twiete alley, land; but
cf. also OE. twicen and TWITCHEL1.]" No Norse connection mentioned.
Oxford D. of English Placenames says the "gate" in these names is OE
/geat/, not OScand /gata/. Remember that this kind of "gate" is likely
to refer to a _gap_ rather than the barrier which fills a gap.
Larry Swain
MMMM, if of Norse derivation, probably not. See Old Norse gata, a road,
way, by extension a trip or journey. But I'd be surprised to see many
villages or towns in Sussex with Norse names.
Brian Sharrock
"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:47e6e234$0$26037$8826...@free.teranews.com...
Oh that _must_ mean it's true - not just an opinion :)
Isn't that an appeal to authority?
> Oxford D. of English Placenames says the "gate" in these names is OE
> /geat/, not OScand /gata/. Remember that this kind of "gate" is likely
> to refer to a _gap_ rather than the barrier which fills a gap.
>
> --
> Mike.
>
>
I'll infer from your statement that you've never visited Fishersgate ?
The Romans had a port at Port(us) )Lada (currently spelt Portslade); Later a
port was established at Shoreham (originally established up the River Adur
(Old Shoreham) but relocated closer to the river's mouth when the
river-mouth shifted (New Shoreham).
The terrain between Portslade and Shoreham is as flat as a pancake - no
features that's support any 'gap' theory* - however it's reasonable to
assume that a 'gata' (road) would be traversed by folk and that this road
would be referred to as the fisher's road.
* the closest Gap to Fishersgate is IIRC in Western Road, Brighton.
BTW; although the road named Western does run from Brighton's centre towards
the West; its named after its developer -Mr Western - and not it's
direction' over-reliance on etymology from books etc can damage your
comprehension.
--
Brian;
WHATTA I know? I only live here!
a.spencer3
Pardon?
Surreyman
Jack Linthicum
> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:47e6e234$0$26037$8826...@free.teranews.com...
>
>
>
> > Brian Sharrock wrote:
Sophie's father?
John Briggs
It's an appeal to scholarship - something Phil Innes is unable to
comprehend. I do hope you're not going the same way.
>> Oxford D. of English Placenames says the "gate" in these names is OE
>> /geat/, not OScand /gata/. Remember that this kind of "gate" is
>> likely to refer to a _gap_ rather than the barrier which fills a gap.
>
> I'll infer from your statement that you've never visited Fishersgate ?
> The Romans had a port at Port(us) )Lada (currently spelt Portslade);
> Later a port was established at Shoreham (originally established up
> the River Adur (Old Shoreham) but relocated closer to the river's
> mouth when the river-mouth shifted (New Shoreham).
> The terrain between Portslade and Shoreham is as flat as a pancake -
> no features that's support any 'gap' theory* - however it's
> reasonable to assume that a 'gata' (road) would be traversed by folk
> and that this road would be referred to as the fisher's road.
I do hope you're not pretending that Portus Lada is the Latin name? It is,
of course, a latinisation of the OE name, which is from port + gelad.
--
John Briggs
Brian Sharrock
name? The OE name is , of course an attempt of the OE speakers to
enunciate Portus + Ladda wiki refers; -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portslade <extract> The actual etymology of
Portslade may be portus- + -ladda, way to the port, where ladda is from the
Old English for way, but this is conjectural at best.</extract> If you're
unfamilar with the area; Portslade is a village about a mile or so from the
coast (port) it's not to be confused with Portslade-on-Sea which is on the
coast itself. The village is 'on the way to Portus.(Adurnii?)'
Whatever happened to your your argument about Fishersgate?
--
Brian
John Briggs
> Latin name?
To quote your favourite source, Wikipedia: "Portus Adurni" [note spelling]
"is generally accepted as having been located at ... Portchester". There is
no evidence that Portslade had a Roman name.
> The OE name is , of course an attempt of the OE
> speakers to enunciate Portus + Ladda wiki refers; -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portslade <extract> The actual
> etymology of Portslade may be portus- + -ladda, way to the port,
> where ladda is from the Old English for way, but this is conjectural
> at best.</extract> If you're unfamilar with the area; Portslade is a
> village about a mile or so from the coast (port) it's not to be
> confused with Portslade-on-Sea which is on the coast itself. The
> village is 'on the way to Portus.(Adurnii?)'
'Crossing place by the harbour'.
> Whatever happened to your your argument about Fishersgate?
My my argument about Fishersgate? I don't have one, not having seen the
early forms.
--
John Briggs
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:48:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
> <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>
>>BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used
>>frequently in Poetic English.
>
> Please quote some poetry with "boughten". Or do you want me to
> write a poem including the word, so that your faslehood can become
> true?
The one that seems to be quoted most often is Frost's "Provide,
Provide", which ends
Better to go down dignified
With boughten friendship at your side
Than none at all. Provide, provide!
> I counted the number of times "boughten" occurs in the OED: zero.
You might want to count again. Three quotations in the entry proper,
from 1793 to 1825, seven overall, although one, from 1450 is a past
tense rather than a participle. The other three, from 1883 to 1933,
use "store-boughten".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It is error alone which needs the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |support of government. Truth can
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stand by itself.
| Thomas Jefferson
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
La N
"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:3aqgcd...@hpl.hp.com...
> James Hogg <Jas.H...@SPAM.gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:48:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
>> <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>>
>>>BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used
>>>frequently in Poetic English.
>>
>> Please quote some poetry with "boughten". Or do you want me to
>> write a poem including the word, so that your faslehood can become
>> true?
>
> The one that seems to be quoted most often is Frost's "Provide,
> Provide", which ends
>
> Better to go down dignified
> With boughten friendship at your side
> Than none at all. Provide, provide!
>
And yet another poster brang evidence of "lazy" poesy!
And, btw, is "brang" a word?
- nilita
Steve Ketcham
Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
> The one that seems to be quoted most often is Frost's "Provide,
> Provide", which ends
>
> Better to go down dignified
> With boughten friendship at your side
> Than none at all. Provide, provide!
>
Actually, this fits with my experience with "boughten". I've heard it
all my life from speakers of the eastern Vermont/New Hampshire/inland
Maine variety of American English ... an accent sadly in decline, in my
opinion. With his time in NH and VT, Frost would have heard it, too.
Steve
James Hogg
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>James Hogg <Jas.H...@SPAM.gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:48:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
>> <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>>
>>>BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used
>>>frequently in Poetic English.
>>
>> Please quote some poetry with "boughten". Or do you want me to
>> write a poem including the word, so that your faslehood can become
>> true?
>
>The one that seems to be quoted most often is Frost's "Provide,
>Provide", which ends
>
> Better to go down dignified
> With boughten friendship at your side
> Than none at all. Provide, provide!
>
>> I counted the number of times "boughten" occurs in the OED: zero.
>
>You might want to count again. Three quotations in the entry proper,
>from 1793 to 1825, seven overall, although one, from 1450 is a past
>tense rather than a participle. The other three, from 1883 to 1933,
>use "store-boughten".
I've already been corrected on that point by a lesser man than you.
I confined my quick OED search to the verb "buy", and among the past
participle spellings I found only:
1 ({asg}e)boht, 2 iboht, 3 boht, 3-4 bohut, (i-, y-)bou{ygh}t, 3-4, 7
boght, 3-5 bo{ygh}t, 4 yboht, bowght, (bout), 4-5 boghte, bo{ygh}te,
(y-)bou{ygh}te, (5 ybou{ygh}ht), 5-6 boughte, (6 bouht, bowte,
beyght), 5- bought, Sc. bocht.
It never struck me that the fiendishly clever lexicographers might
have classified it as an adjective.
Anyway, it's got nothing to do with the non-existent verb "wetten".
And it amazes me that anyone can apply the epithet "poetic" to
Coleridge's phrase "boughten succours".
James
D. Spencer Hines
again...
And takes a hilarious egregious pratfall...
KAWHOMP!!!
KERSPLAT!!!
How Sweet It Is!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:3aqgcd...@hpl.hp.com...
D. Spencer Hines
of her USENET "maq" -- "James Hogg".
KAWHOMP!!!
KERSPLAT!!!
That's what she gets for following false prophets.
How Sweet It Is!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:IuQFj.106555$FO1.46101@edtnps82...
>
> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
> news:3aqgcd...@hpl.hp.com...
>> James Hogg <Jas.H...@SPAM.gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:48:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
>>> <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used
>>>>frequently in Poetic English.
>>>
>>> Please quote some poetry with "boughten". Or do you want me to
>>> write a poem including the word, so that your faslehood [sic] can become
D. Spencer Hines
Pogue Hogg INSISTS on regaling us with details concerning his INCOMPETENCE
in even READING the OED.
Deeeeeeelightful!
DSH
"James Hogg" <Jas.H...@SPAM.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qllfu3dajo4gpc0dv...@4ax.com...
D. Spencer Hines
KAWHOMP!!!
KERSPLAT!!!
That's what she gets for following false prophets.
How Sweet It Is!
* maquereau
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:IuQFj.106555$FO1.46101@edtnps82...
>
> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
> news:3aqgcd...@hpl.hp.com...
>> James Hogg <Jas.H...@SPAM.gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:48:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
>>> <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used
>>>>frequently in Poetic English.
>>>
>>> Please quote some poetry with "boughten". Or do you want me to
>>> write a poem including the word, so that your faslehood [sic] can become
D. Spencer Hines
"James Hogg" is so stupid he didn't even realize that BOUGHTEN is a
participial ADJECTIVE...
Just as is its close kin, FOUGHTEN.
How Sweet It Is!...
Watching Pogue Hogg drink deeply from his own self-constructed Fountain of
Ignorance, Indolence & Sloth.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
James Hogg
<pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>Hilarious!
>
>Pogue Hogg INSISTS on regaling us with details concerning his INCOMPETENCE
>in even READING the OED.
It's an occupational injury. Somebody mentions the word "boughten" and
I look it up under the root form "buy".
That wouldn't occur to a person who isn't aware of the connection
between the two words.
Oh, and while we're on the subject of competence in searching the OED:
have you found "wetten" yet?
I can tell you that it occurs in four places. Let's see if you can
find them.
You don't have to do it immediately. Let your hangover wear off first,
then you can deal with this and my other challenge.
James
D. Spencer Hines
participial ADJECTIVE...
Just as is its close kin, FOUGHTEN.
How Sweet It Is!...
Watching Pogue Hogg drink deeply from his own self-constructed Fountain of
Ignorance, Indolence & Sloth...
And continuing to regale us with the DETAILS of his Ignorance, Indolence &
Sloth.
Vide infra pro risibus.
Hilarious!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"James Hogg" <Jas.H...@SPAM.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nlvfu3heauf237b25...@4ax.com...
James Hogg
"Hand-serviced Penis", <pan...@excelsior.com> posted ...
exactly the same message that he just posted. Is this ineptitude or
mere dearth of originality?
>James Hogg" is so stupid he didn't even realize that BOUGHTEN is a
>participial ADJECTIVE...
>
>Just as is its close kin, FOUGHTEN.
Sloppy language, again, David. The words are not related at all, as
the etymology in the OED will tell you.
>How Sweet It Is!...
>
>Watching Pogue Hogg drink deeply from his own self-constructed Fountain of
>Ignorance, Indolence & Sloth...
How about answering my two challenges instead of having multiple
orgasms about a mistake which I already admitted?
>And continuing to regale us with the DETAILS of his Ignorance, Indolence &
>Sloth.
Have you crawled out of your "escape catch" yet?
>Vide infra pro risibus.
Home-made Latin won't impress anybody. If you want to learn about the
idiomatic construction using "ut" and the subjunctive you can start
with my thread about the History of the Lombards and The Sound of
Music.
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Gawd, more "Latin".
James
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Anyway, it's got nothing to do with the non-existent verb "wetten".
That one is far less common, but not quite nonexistent, e.g.,
What wonders of Divine glory, and all-regning omnipotent majesty
is continually opening to mine eye!--It wettens up the desire,
that I may know him.
_The Spiritual Magazine_, 1830
This I have ascertained, by introducing a lump of the metalloid
into water, surrounded by an atmosphere of nitrogen; those those
who repeat the experiment may accuse me of error, if they do not
recollect, that the hydrogen set at liberty carries with it a
portion of potassium, which acts upon wettened turmeric or
reddened litmus paper, and causes it to afford indications of an
alkali.
Thomas Gisborne, _Essays on Agriculture_, 1854
The observations during the whole of this period of 44 years have
been made at three different times in the day, designated in the
journals as morning, noon, and night; and included the readings of
the barometer, temperature of the air and either a Daniell's
hygrometer or a wettened-bulb thermometer ...
_J. Royal Horticultural Soc._, 1871
They are then tightened, and the instrument is tuned by wettening
these strings and tightening or loosening them about the
crosspiece.
Diedrich Westermann, _The Shilluk People_, 1912
In 1761 a Miss Ford published her _Instructions for playing on the
Musical Glasses_ which describes how with a wettened middel finger
a tone is produced 'by pursuing a circular Motion of the Glass'.
footnote in Oliver Goldsmith, _The Vicar of
Wakefield_, 1982
Third, the data for the drier regions may be taken as a
cross-sectional snapshot of the processes that are at work when a
previously dry region undergoes a pronounced wettening.
Walter Clark (ed), Alcohol in America, 1991
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If only some crazy scientist
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |somewhere would develop a device
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |that would allow us to change the
|channel on our televisions......
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | --"lazarus"
(650)857-7572
James Hogg
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>James Hogg <Jas.H...@SPAM.gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Anyway, it's got nothing to do with the non-existent verb "wetten".
>
>That one is far less common, but not quite nonexistent, e.g.,
Yes, you can find it in print, but not in the OED.
I'm just teasing an arch-purist, a puerile prescriptivist who loves to
correct others in the most abusive manner, about his use of a word
that is frequently held up as "bad English". One example:
'The Confessions of Nat Turner is not well written. It is very
sloppily written. Styron's choice of words is often inaccurate ... He
describes a poor white counting dollar bills with a "wettened" finger,
meaning a wetted finger.'
That's from:
'Social Relevance, Literary Judgment, and the New Right; Or, the
Inadvertent Confessions of William Styron'
J. Mitchell Morse
College English, Vol. 30, No. 8. (May, 1969), p. 614.
James
D. Spencer Hines
From whence have you plucked these? <g>
DSH
"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:y787c0...@hpl.hp.com...
Les Cargill
>
> And, btw, is "brang" a word?
>
> - nilita
>
>
Is around here :) Past tense is "brung".
--
Les Cargill
Evan Kirshenbaum
> And, btw, is "brang" a word?
'Tis in some dialects and registers. The early hits I see are mostly
Scots, but I see it in English hits back to the 1860s, with the first
person complaining about it in 1867.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The Elizabethans had so many words
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for the female genitals that it is
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |quite hard to speak a sentence of
|modern English without inadvertently
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |mentioning at least three of them.
(650)857-7572 | Terry Pratchett
La N
> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> And, btw, is "brang" a word?
>
> 'Tis in some dialects and registers. The early hits I see are mostly
> Scots, but I see it in English hits back to the 1860s, with the first
> person complaining about it in 1867.
>
Evidently the complainant was ineffective. Lo these 140 years later I still
hear the word used and still see people complaining that it isn't really a
word.
- nilita
Evan Kirshenbaum
> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
> news:8x07bv...@hpl.hp.com...
>> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> And, btw, is "brang" a word?
>>
>> 'Tis in some dialects and registers. The early hits I see are
>> mostly Scots, but I see it in English hits back to the 1860s, with
>> the first person complaining about it in 1867.
>
> Evidently the complainant was ineffective.
As they pretty much invariably are.
> Lo these 140 years later I still hear the word used and still see
> people complaining that it isn't really a word.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It's not coherent, it's merely
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |focused.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Keith Moore
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
D. Spencer Hines
James Hogg
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
>> news:8x07bv...@hpl.hp.com...
>>> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> And, btw, is "brang" a word?
>>>
>>> 'Tis in some dialects and registers. The early hits I see are
>>> mostly Scots, but I see it in English hits back to the 1860s, with
>>> the first person complaining about it in 1867.
>>
>> Evidently the complainant was ineffective.
>
>As they pretty much invariably are.
With the new phenomenon of "global wettening" (17 hits on Google),
there's obviously no point in complaining about the word "wetten"
(although purists will continue to do so).
I was surprised by the frequency of "global warmening" (1,690 hits).
And there's even "global coolening" (8 hits).
Three new verbs for the next update of the OED.
James
La N
> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
>> news:8x07bv...@hpl.hp.com...
>>> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> And, btw, is "brang" a word?
>>>
>>> 'Tis in some dialects and registers. The early hits I see are
>>> mostly Scots, but I see it in English hits back to the 1860s, with
>>> the first person complaining about it in 1867.
>>
>> Evidently the complainant was ineffective.
>
> As they pretty much invariably are.
>
Okay. Here's another ? . A friend of mine in the States (Boston born and
raised, lives in L.A.) used to use the word "mayhaps" a lot. So then I
picked it up and started using it in some of my missives until someone else
said that *that* word drove her crazy and that it should be extinguished
from the English language.
Was she right?
I have since been shamed out of writing "mayhaps". Until this moment, that
is.
- nilita
John Briggs
That's because the correct form is "mayhap".
--
John Briggs
La N
> La N wrote:
>> >> Okay. Here's another ? . A friend of mine in the States (Boston
>> born and raised, lives in L.A.) used to use the word "mayhaps" a lot.
>> So then I picked it up and started using it in some of my missives
>> until someone else said that *that* word drove her crazy and that it
>> should be extinguished from the English language.
>>
>> Was she right?
>>
>> I have since been shamed out of writing "mayhaps". Until this
>> moment, that is.
>
> That's because the correct form is "mayhap".
> --
Ah! You're right. As is my friend who does indeed spell/speak it "mayhap".
I'm the one who screwed it up by adding an *s*.
- nilita
D. Spencer Hines
One shouldn't be "shamed" into not using them.
PERHAPS and PERCHANCE may have more solidity and panache.
DSH
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:IMWFj.122869$C61.59885@edtnps89...
D. Spencer Hines
MAYHAPS is perfectly acceptable -- admittedly dated -- but NOT wrong.
DSH
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:yFXFj.122873$C61.14465@edtnps89...
TMOliver
"Les Cargill" <lcar...@cfl.rr.com> wrote ...
> La N wrote:
>>
>> And, btw, is "brang" a word?
>
>
potentially more acceptable than the Transappalachian Pluperfect formed with
the addition of auxiliary verb "done".... (best exemplified by the
statement: "I done done it already!")
TMO
D. Spencer Hines
United States, particularly in the South.
DSH
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> Okay. Here's another ? . A friend of mine in the States (Boston
> born and raised, lives in L.A.) used to use the word "mayhaps" a lot.
> So then I picked it up and started using it in some of my missives
> until someone else said that *that* word drove her crazy and that it
> should be extinguished from the English language.
>
> Was she right?
>
> I have since been shamed out of writing "mayhaps". Until this
> moment, that is.
It seems rare, especially in the contracted form "map". You could, of
course, have substituted "may fall", "may tide", "mayfortune", or
"maychance": perchance she mightn't have minded one of those so much.
(I've modernized the spellings.)
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
D. Spencer Hines
United States, particularly in the traditional American South.
_CATCHED_ was quite common in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. In
Britain as well I suspect.
_CRUNK_ is a Good English Word...
It's both a noun and a verb.
_CRUNKED UP_ is another issue...
Confused with _CRUMPLED UP_?...
A conflation of _CRUNCHED_ and _CRUMPLED_? <g>
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
La N
"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:47e9251d$0$14156$8826...@free.teranews.com...
"mayfortune". I love it!
- nilita, finding my new word of the day ...
David Burn
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:48:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
> <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>
>>BOUGHTEN is a perfectly Good English Word and has been used frequently in
>>Poetic English.
> Please quote some poetry with "boughten".
Better to go down dignified
With boughten friendship at your side
Than none at all. Provide, provide!
Robert Frost
David Burn
London, England
D. Spencer Hines
Didn't even know how to look up a word in the OED.
Young fellow...
So he looked up BUY rather than BOUGHTEN...as he's explained embarrassedly,
several times.
Alphabetically & Conceptually Challenged.
He also has this curious idea that a word has to be found in the OED to be
"certified".
He finally saw his pratfall on that one and seems to have sorrowfully
admitted that the OED would need to make more space for WETTEN and WETTENED.
Robert Frost = Great Poet...
Certainly Literate.
Knows BOUGHTEN.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"David Burn" <dal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:t6edndxyFNZ...@giganews.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Slow Learner...
Didn't even know how to look up a word in the OED.
Young fellow...
So he looked up BUY rather than BOUGHTEN...as he's explained embarrassedly,
several times.
Alphabetically & Conceptually Challenged.
He didn't even realize BOUGHTEN is a participial ADJECTIVE...
Thought it was a VERB.
He also has this curious idea that a word has to be found in the OED to be
"certified".
He finally saw his pratfall on that one and seems to have sorrowfully
admitted that the OED would need to make more space for WETTEN, WETTENING
and WETTENED.
Robert Frost = Great Poet...
Certainly Literate.
Knew BOUGHTEN.
James Hogg
<pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>Robert Frost = Great Poet...
>
>Certainly Literate.
Indeed. My first published poem,
"A Short Game of Tennis Played with a Net",
c. 1974, ended with the coda:
With apologies to Robert Frost
Now, here's another question for you:
Which literate poet wrote the following words?
For that it hangs upon the wall
Of him who only knows 'tis real
Because his purse is lighter than before.
James
Renia
>>>>>> Brian Sharrock wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> What is _unlikely_ in Surrey and Sussex?
>>>>>> Place-names of Danish (Viking) origin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sussex was home to the court of King Canute (Knut) ruler of a
>>>>>>> Norsk empire stretching from Norway to Sussex's coast].
>>>>>>> Sussex's coast contains such gems as 'Fisher's Gate (=road);
>>>>>>> Easter Gate; Westergate; -
>>>>>> No, "Gate" means, er, 'gate' in all of those - *not* 'road'.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm afraid you're just wrong. Gate, in tthis context means "Road";
>>>>> Eastergate is a village several miles from the Gate of the Roman
>>>>> city ... on the EasternRoad from Chichester ; WesterGate is a
>>>>> similar village ,,, on the Western Road from Chichester. BTW;
>>>>> there's no gate(s) [barred obstructions) on the Fishers Road from
>>>>> Portus Lada to Southwick .. just an ancient road (currently
>>>>> designated as the A259.
>>>>>>> Chichester contains Olav's Church - not far from
>>>>>>> Hornet - .
>>>>>> Where is Hornet Gate? I know St Olave's church very well - but it
>>>>>> is now the SPCK Bookshop.
>>>>> Who mentioned Hornet _Gate_? You've introduced a straw man
>>>>> arguement! Horn-et ( et Horn ... scandawegian articles are appended
>>>>> to the noun such as hus_et / bil_en) is the horn (curved) road
>>>>> leading to the current cattle market (car park) outside the Roman
>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>> Do you dispute my statement that the terminal ...en
>>>>>>> displays the Norsk(Danish) origin of many Sussex placenames and
>>>>>>> objects?
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> OED says of "twitten": "[Perh. related to LG. twiete alley, land; but
>>>> cf. also OE. twicen and TWITCHEL1.]" No Norse connection mentioned.
>>> Oh that _must_ mean it's true - not just an opinion :)
>>> Isn't that an appeal to authority?
>> It's an appeal to scholarship - something Phil Innes is unable to
>> comprehend. I do hope you're not going the same way.
>>
>>>> Oxford D. of English Placenames says the "gate" in these names is OE
>>>> /geat/, not OScand /gata/. Remember that this kind of "gate" is
>>>> likely to refer to a _gap_ rather than the barrier which fills a gap.
>>> I'll infer from your statement that you've never visited Fishersgate ?
>>> The Romans had a port at Port(us) )Lada (currently spelt Portslade);
>>> Later a port was established at Shoreham (originally established up
>>> the River Adur (Old Shoreham) but relocated closer to the river's
>>> mouth when the river-mouth shifted (New Shoreham).
>>> The terrain between Portslade and Shoreham is as flat as a pancake -
>>> no features that's support any 'gap' theory* - however it's
>>> reasonable to assume that a 'gata' (road) would be traversed by folk
>>> and that this road would be referred to as the fisher's road.
>> I do hope you're not pretending that Portus Lada is the Latin name? It
>> is, of course, a latinisation of the OE name, which is from port + gelad.
>> --
>> John Briggs
>>
> I do hope you're not pretending that Portus (Adurnii?) is NOT the Latin
> name? The OE name is , of course an attempt of the OE speakers to
> enunciate Portus + Ladda wiki refers; -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portslade <extract> The actual etymology of
> Portslade may be portus- + -ladda, way to the port, where ladda is from the
> Old English for way, but this is conjectural at best.</extract> If you're
> unfamilar with the area; Portslade is a village about a mile or so from the
> coast (port) it's not to be confused with Portslade-on-Sea which is on the
It's called Portslade-by-Sea. As you say, the old village of Portslade
is a mile or more inland. It's probably nearer to Southwick than
Portslade-by-Sea, which is a Victorian development resulting from the
advent of the railway, and was previously known as Copperas Gap.
Portslade was apparently mistaken for Portus Adurni in the 17th century.
> coast itself. The village is 'on the way to Portus.(Adurnii?)'
>
> Whatever happened to your your argument about Fishersgate?
>
>
John Briggs
So much so, that they re-named the river as "Adur" in its honour!
--
John Briggs
Renia
Even though the River Adur is about 3 miles away.
John Briggs
Not really - it's about a mile from Portslade Village to the harbour at
Portslade-by-Sea.
--
John Briggs
Renia
Yes, but the River Adur is about 3 miles west of Portslade.
John Briggs
I rather think the 17th century reasoning is that it is still the river as
it flows into the harbour.
--
John Briggs
Matthew Huntbach
> John Briggs wrote:
>> Renia wrote:
>>> Brian Sharrock wrote:
>>>> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:fEOFj.19175$5i5....@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
>>>>> Brian Sharrock wrote:
>>>>>> "Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:47e6e234$0$26037$8826...@free.teranews.com...
>>>>>>>>>> Do you dispute my statement that the terminal ...en
>>>>>>>>>> displays the Norsk(Danish) origin of many Sussex placenames and
>>>>>>>>>> objects?
No, Sussex placenames tend not to have the classic Norsk placename
elements such as "thorpe" which are found in the north and east of
of England, the parts which were under Danelaw.
>>>>>> I'll infer from your statement that you've never visited
>>>>>> Fishersgate ? The Romans had a port at Port(us) )Lada (currently
>>>>>> spelt Portslade); Later a port was established at Shoreham
>>>>>> (originally established up the River Adur (Old Shoreham) but
>>>>>> relocated closer to the river's mouth when the river-mouth shifted
>>>>>> (New Shoreham). The terrain between Portslade and Shoreham is as flat
>>>>>> as a pancake
>>>>>> - no features that's support any 'gap' theory* - however it's
>>>>>> reasonable to assume that a 'gata' (road) would be traversed by
>>>>>> folk and that this road would be referred to as the fisher's road.
>>>>> I do hope you're not pretending that Portus Lada is the Latin name?
>>>>> It is, of course, a latinisation of the OE name, which is from port
>>>>> + gelad. --
I have always heard it that the name came from a combination of "Port"
and "Slade", with "Slade" being a placename element which is
found occasionally elsewhere in England.
>>>> I do hope you're not pretending that Portus (Adurnii?) is NOT the
>>>> Latin name? The OE name is , of course an attempt of the OE
>>>> speakers to enunciate Portus + Ladda wiki refers; -
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portslade <extract> The actual
>>>> etymology of Portslade may be portus- + -ladda, way to the port,
>>>> where ladda is from the Old English for way, but this is conjectural
>>>> at best.</extract> If you're unfamilar with the area; Portslade is
>>>> a village about a mile or so from the coast (port) it's not to be
>>>> confused with Portslade-on-Sea which is on the
>>> It's called Portslade-by-Sea. As you say, the old village of Portslade
>>> is a mile or more inland. It's probably nearer to Southwick than
>>> Portslade-by-Sea, which is a Victorian development resulting from the
>>> advent of the railway, and was previously known as Copperas Gap.
Portslade was the parish which covered the whole area from the
high downlands down to the sea. The ancient area of settlement of this
parish was indeed a mile or so inland. While "Portslade-by-sea" was
the name given to the Victorian development in the south of the
parish, when it was set up as an Urban District Council, the name
given to the UDC was "Portslade-by-Sea" even though it covered the
whole of the Portslade parish. So the names are confused. Locals
(of whom I am one - spent my entire childhood there) only ever call it
"Portslade" and mean by this the whole area of Portslade from the
sea to the Downs. If you wish to refer to the central village area, you call
it "the Old Village". The proper pronunciation of Portslade is with the stress
on the second syllable rather than the first, a pattern found in a number of
Sussex placenames in the Brighton conurbation e.g. Rottingdean and Moulsecoomb.
I do notice on my now rather infrequent visits to the area that many
incomers seem not to have picked up this stress pattern, so it may be
another old idiosyncrasy which is disappearing.
>>> Portslade was apparently mistaken for Portus Adurni in the 17th
>>> century.
>> So much so, that they re-named the river as "Adur" in its honour!
> Even though the River Adur is about 3 miles away.
I think it's the case that the current sea entrance at Shoreham is rather
recent, and historically (until the mid 18th century) the Adur did flow
into the sea at Portslade. What is now called "the canal" (the harbour part
to the east of the Adur's entrance to the sea) was originally part of the
flow of the Adur into the sea. The web site for the Port of Shoreham:
http://www.portshoreham.co.uk/port_history/history.asp
confirms this, giving the dates when cuts to the sea were made, turning the
canal into a dead-end.
Matthew Huntbach
Renia
> On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Renia wrote:
>
>>>> It's called Portslade-by-Sea. As you say, the old village of Portslade
>>>> is a mile or more inland. It's probably nearer to Southwick than
>>>> Portslade-by-Sea, which is a Victorian development resulting from the
>>>> advent of the railway, and was previously known as Copperas Gap.
>
> Portslade was the parish which covered the whole area from the
> high downlands down to the sea. The ancient area of settlement of this
> parish was indeed a mile or so inland. While "Portslade-by-sea" was
> the name given to the Victorian development in the south of the
> parish, when it was set up as an Urban District Council, the name
> given to the UDC was "Portslade-by-Sea" even though it covered the
> whole of the Portslade parish. So the names are confused. Locals
> (of whom I am one - spent my entire childhood there) only ever call it
> "Portslade" and mean by this the whole area of Portslade from the
> sea to the Downs. If you wish to refer to the central village area, you
> call
> it "the Old Village". The proper pronunciation of Portslade is with the
> stress on the second syllable rather than the first, a pattern found in
> a number of Sussex placenames in the Brighton conurbation e.g.
> Rottingdean and Moulsecoomb.
I'm a local and call it PortSLADE. Portslade Old Village was always the
Old Village and the seaside town was always Portslade-by-Sea.
> I do notice on my now rather infrequent visits to the area that many
> incomers seem not to have picked up this stress pattern, so it may be
> another old idiosyncrasy which is disappearing.
>
>>>> Portslade was apparently mistaken for Portus Adurni in the 17th
>>>> century.
>
>>> So much so, that they re-named the river as "Adur" in its honour!
>
>> Even though the River Adur is about 3 miles away.
>
> I think it's the case that the current sea entrance at Shoreham is
> rather recent, and historically (until the mid 18th century) the Adur
> did flow into the sea at Portslade. What is now called "the canal" (the
> harbour part to the east of the Adur's entrance to the sea) was
> originally part of the flow of the Adur into the sea. The web site for
> the Port of Shoreham:
>
> http://www.portshoreham.co.uk/port_history/history.asp
>
> confirms this, giving the dates when cuts to the sea were made, turning the
> canal into a dead-end.
Just goes to show how you take your local area for granted! It never
entered my head that Hove Lagoon could be the historical route of the
Adur to the sea. Either way, it looks like The Adur entered the sea in
Hove (Aldrington), not Portslade.
Brian Sharrock
"Renia" <re...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:fsp6m7$lgq$1...@mouse.otenet.gr...
> John Briggs wrote:
snip
>>>> So much so, that they re-named the river as "Adur" in its honour!
>>> Even though the River Adur is about 3 miles away.
>>
>> Not really - it's about a mile from Portslade Village to the harbour at
>> Portslade-by-Sea.
>
> Yes, but the River Adur is about 3 miles west of Portslade.
The River Adur runs approximately north-south from Steyning towards the
coast -at Shoreham by Sea- and is / maybe (roughly) three miles west of
Portslade at this point.
_However_ the Adur makes a sharp left hand bend at Shoreham and continues
parallel to the coast - without debouching - through the boroughs of
Shoreham. Kingston (where the entrance to Shoreham Harbour is situated) ,
Southwick, Portslade and Hove. The river is canalised with two locks at
the boundary between Kingston and Southwick . This so-called "Eastern Arm"
of the Adur washes Portslade -on-Sea on its southern side.
The Port Authority is IIRC the holder of the land of Shoreham Port and
Portslade-on-Sea provides services for both side of the A259 (a route which
changes its name every few yards seemingly; Albion Road, Brighton Road,
Kingsway etc. etc. ).So . technically the River Adur doesn't legally form
the Southern boundary of Portslade-on-Sea (currently absorbed into the
'City' of "Brighton & Hove").
Interesting Factoid: (SMN): The Nab Tower was constructed at Shoreham and
floated out to sea into the channel. It was a classified project and was
intended to be one of a series of structures between England and France
supporting a huge anti-U Boat net screen across the Channel. WW1 ended
before its intended scheme could be implemented - what else can one do with
a huge concrete pillar?
Interesting factoid. The County of Sussex was divided into two Counties,
East Sussex and West Sussex along a gerrymandered boundary; West Sussex was
'given' Shoreham Port' which intrudes into East Sussex; while East Sussex
was 'given' the (then) little airport of Gatwick; which intrudes into West
Sussex.
--
Brian
a.spencer3
"Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:%y2Ij.30552$%N1.1...@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
And Surrey lost its county town, even - which still, uniquely, stays outside
of the county!
Surreyman
Matthew Huntbach
> "Renia" <re...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
> news:fsp6m7$lgq$1...@mouse.otenet.gr...
>> John Briggs wrote:
>>>>> So much so, that they re-named the river as "Adur" in its honour!
>>>> Even though the River Adur is about 3 miles away.
>>> Not really - it's about a mile from Portslade Village to the harbour at
>>> Portslade-by-Sea.
>> Yes, but the River Adur is about 3 miles west of Portslade.
> The River Adur runs approximately north-south from Steyning towards the
> coast -at Shoreham by Sea- and is / maybe (roughly) three miles west of
> Portslade at this point.
> _However_ the Adur makes a sharp left hand bend at Shoreham and continues
> parallel to the coast - without debouching - through the boroughs of
> Shoreham. Kingston (where the entrance to Shoreham Harbour is situated) ,
> Southwick, Portslade and Hove. The river is canalised with two locks at
> the boundary between Kingston and Southwick . This so-called "Eastern Arm"
> of the Adur washes Portslade -on-Sea on its southern side.
No, it debouches at Shoreham, before the locks. The canalised part is
a dead-end, it represents what was the river before the cut was made in
1760. Also, Shoreham, Kingston, Southwick and Portslade are parishes,
not boroughs. Hove had borough status before 1974, Portslade was merged
in with it at that date, and then Hove (with Portslade) was merged with
Brighton. The parishes between Worthing and Portslade were grouped
together in the 1974 local government reorganisation to form Adur
District Council. Prior to that Portlade was a separate Urban District
Council, as were Southwick (including Fishersgate) and Shoreham
(including Kingston). Historically, Shoreham was a borough returning two
members of parliament.
> The Port Authority is IIRC the holder of the land of Shoreham Port and
> Portslade-on-Sea provides services for both side of the A259 (a route which
> changes its name every few yards seemingly; Albion Road, Brighton Road,
> Kingsway etc. etc. ).So . technically the River Adur doesn't legally form
> the Southern boundary of Portslade-on-Sea (currently absorbed into the
> 'City' of "Brighton & Hove").
Yes, there is a little bit of the south coast of Portslade that you can't
actually get to by land without exiting Portslade. Portsladians should,
of course, insist that the City of Brighton&Hove is called just
"Brighton" in revenge for the merger of Hove and Portslade in 1974
being called just "Hove". The sign at the boundary between Portslade
and Southwick which read "Hove" after 1974 was regularly defaced by Portslade
liberationists (it wasn't me, honest) - we all knew that Hove *really*
began at the logically named Boundary Road.
> Interesting Factoid: (SMN): The Nab Tower was constructed at Shoreham and
> floated out to sea into the channel. It was a classified project and was
> intended to be one of a series of structures between England and France
> supporting a huge anti-U Boat net screen across the Channel. WW1 ended
> before its intended scheme could be implemented - what else can one do with
> a huge concrete pillar?
>
> Interesting factoid. The County of Sussex was divided into two Counties,
> East Sussex and West Sussex along a gerrymandered boundary; West Sussex was
> 'given' Shoreham Port' which intrudes into East Sussex; while East Sussex
> was 'given' the (then) little airport of Gatwick; which intrudes into West
> Sussex.
Historically, Sussex was divided into 6 divisions, running from north to
south of the county, called "rapes", and West Sussex was the west three
of these (Chcichester, Arundel and Bramber), East Sussex the east three
(Lewes, Pevensey and Hastings). There was no gerrymander, the
boundary was ancient and a straightish line. The 1974 local
government reorganisation, however, put the chunk of what was East
Sussex north of the Brighton conurbation into West Sussex while keeping
Brighton, Hove and Portslade in East Sussex. I think there was, however,
some sort of fiddling with the boundary with Surrey in order to keep
all of Gatwick Airport in one county.
The boundary between Portslade and Southwick at Fishersgate (and hence
between East and West Sussex) becomes a pure straight line down to the coast.
This means there are a couple of point where it cuts right through
terraces of housing. In the days when I used to fight local elections
there, you had to be careful when delivering literature knowing that one
house was in your county, and the next without even a gap between them was
in the other county.
Matthew Huntbach
John Briggs
They became separate counties in 1889.
--
John Briggs
Renia
Well, to quote Wikithingy:
The ancient kingdom of Sussex has had separate county administrations
since the 12th century, with the county town of the eastern division
being Lewes [1]. This situation was formalised by Parliament in 1865,
and the two parts were given distinct elected county councils in 1889
under the Local Government Act 1888.
However, until 1974, my address was just Sussex, at around which point
it became more formalised as East Sussex.
Brian Sharrock
"Matthew Huntbach" <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:alpine.LRH.1.00.0...@frank.dcs.qmul.ac.uk...
> On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Brian Sharrock wrote:
>> "Renia" <re...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
>> news:fsp6m7$lgq$1...@mouse.otenet.gr...
>>> John Briggs wrote:
>
>>>>>> So much so, that they re-named the river as "Adur" in its honour!
>>>>> Even though the River Adur is about 3 miles away.
>
>>>> Not really - it's about a mile from Portslade Village to the harbour at
>>>> Portslade-by-Sea.
>
>>> Yes, but the River Adur is about 3 miles west of Portslade.
>
>> The River Adur runs approximately north-south from Steyning towards the
>> coast -at Shoreham by Sea- and is / maybe (roughly) three miles west of
>> Portslade at this point.
>> _However_ the Adur makes a sharp left hand bend at Shoreham and continues
>> parallel to the coast - without debouching - through the boroughs of
>> Shoreham. Kingston (where the entrance to Shoreham Harbour is situated) ,
>> Southwick, Portslade and Hove. The river is canalised with two locks at
>> the boundary between Kingston and Southwick . This so-called "Eastern
>> Arm"
>> of the Adur washes Portslade -on-Sea on its southern side.
>
> No, it debouches at Shoreham, before the locks. The canalised part is
> a dead-end,
The dead-end is a (relatiely) recent phenonama . In Historic times the the
river Adur meandered nto the sea at the eastern end of the current canalised
part. {Folks who are following this level of trivia may be somewhat
interested to learn that the former BeatleSir Paul Macarthy has/had a
residence - Heather may have acquired it - in 'Millionairw's Row' - at
the'dead enf' of the canal ; the Pub caaled "The Adur' might have made a
claim for being 'his local'.
> it represents what was the river before the cut was made in 1760.
You've just made my point/ Portslade is _on_ the River Adur and not 3 miles
off.
> ... Also, Shoreham, Kingston, Southwick and Portslade are
> parishes,
> not boroughs.
Concur! I used the term 'borough' ; not in it's local government of 75,000
electorate sense, but in an attempt to convey somehting betweern a village
and a town. Mea Culpa.
> ...Hove had borough status before 1974, Portslade was
> merged
> in with it at that date, and then Hove (with Portslade) was merged with
> Brighton.
It was merged into 'Brighton & Hove (Actuallly).
When I first moved into the general area, I overheard a conversation between
two men; -
A "I didn't realise you lived in Portslade"
B "I prefer the tem British West Hove!"
> ... The parishes between Worthing and Portslade were
OK; perhaps a politician doesn't agree that 'fiddling with the boundary'
doesn't equate to a
"gerrymandered boundary" .
Acrually; mayi of the _Stands_ , places on the airport away from the
terminals and jetties, are in _Surrey_ ; so that idea didn't work. The land
assigned to Gatwick and fenced off includes the northernmost part of West
Sussex and parts of Surrey.
>
> The boundary between Portslade and Southwick at Fishersgate (and hence
> between East and West Sussex) becomes a pure straight line down to the
> coast.
> This means there are a couple of point where it cuts right through
> terraces of housing. In the days when I used to fight local elections
> there, you had to be careful when delivering literature knowing that one
> house was in your county, and the next without even a gap between them was
> in the other county.
>
> Matthew Huntbach
--
Brian
Renia
>
> It was merged into 'Brighton & Hove (Actuallly).
> When I first moved into the general area, I overheard a conversation between
> two men; -
> A "I didn't realise you lived in Portslade"
> B "I prefer the tem British West Hove!"
Do you remember when Portslade Station was called West Hove Station
(because it was actually in Hove!)
As to actually, whenever I went abroad and people asked where I was
from, I'd say "Brighton. Well, Hove, actually". Everyone else must have
said the same thing, because no one's heard of Hove but many people know
of Brighton. Then, of course, ACTUALLY was stamped all through the rock.
What neck of the woods are you in?
Matthew Huntbach
> "Matthew Huntbach" <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote in message
>> ...Hove had borough status before 1974, Portslade was
>> merged in with it at that date, and then Hove (with Portslade) was merged
>> with Brighton.
> It was merged into 'Brighton & Hove (Actuallly).
Since Hove did not have the courtesy to call itself "Hove and Portslade"
when the two councils were merged together, why should I apply that
courtesy to Hove when itr is meged with Brighton?
> When I first moved into the general area, I overheard a conversation between
> two men; -
> A "I didn't realise you lived in Portslade"
> B "I prefer the tem British West Hove!"
B should be hounded out of Portslade for insolence. The true Portsladian
is proud of his town and would never admit it to be part of Hove let
alone prefer it to be thought that way.
Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach
> Brian Sharrock wrote:
>> It was merged into 'Brighton & Hove (Actuallly).
>> When I first moved into the general area, I overheard a conversation
>> between two men; -
>> A "I didn't realise you lived in Portslade"
>> B "I prefer the tem British West Hove!"
> Do you remember when Portslade Station was called West Hove Station (because
> it was actually in Hove!)
No, it was never called "West Hove", it was until recently called
"Portslade and West Hove" however.
> As to actually, whenever I went abroad and people asked where I was from,
> I'd say "Brighton. Well, Hove, actually". Everyone else must have said the
> same thing, because no one's heard of Hove but many people know of Brighton.
> Then, of course, ACTUALLY was stamped all through the rock.
As a true Portsladian, acknowledging that people outside tend not to have
heard of our town, I'd say "Brighton".
Matthew Huntbach
Renia
> On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Brian Sharrock wrote:
>> "Matthew Huntbach" <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote in message
>
>>> ...Hove had borough status before 1974, Portslade was
>>> merged in with it at that date, and then Hove (with Portslade) was
>>> merged with Brighton.
>
>> It was merged into 'Brighton & Hove (Actuallly).
>
> Since Hove did not have the courtesy to call itself "Hove and Portslade"
> when the two councils were merged together, why should I apply that
> courtesy to Hove when itr is meged with Brighton?
Because the city is called Brighton and Hove.
>
>> When I first moved into the general area, I overheard a conversation
>> between
>> two men; -
>> A "I didn't realise you lived in Portslade"
>> B "I prefer the tem British West Hove!"
>
> B should be hounded out of Portslade for insolence. The true Portsladian
> is proud of his town and would never admit it to be part of Hove let
> alone prefer it to be thought that way.
Well, there you go. I hardly even noticed that Hove and Portslade were
merged in 1974. The Porstladian might not want to be part of Hove.
Conversely, more genteel Hove would hardly admit Portslade to be the
same place.
Matthew Huntbach
>> On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Brian Sharrock wrote:
>>> "Matthew Huntbach" <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote in message
>>>> ...Hove had borough status before 1974, Portslade was
>>>> merged in with it at that date, and then Hove (with Portslade) was
>>>> merged with Brighton.
>>> It was merged into 'Brighton & Hove (Actuallly).
>> Since Hove did not have the courtesy to call itself "Hove and Portslade"
>> when the two councils were merged together, why should I apply that
>> courtesy to Hove when itr is meged with Brighton?
> Because the city is called Brighton and Hove.
Yes, that is its offiial name. In practice, some of us will be happy
to shorten it to just "Brighton", and some won't.
>>> When I first moved into the general area, I overheard a conversation
>>> between two men; -
>>> A "I didn't realise you lived in Portslade"
>>> B "I prefer the tem British West Hove!"
>> B should be hounded out of Portslade for insolence. The true Portsladian
>> is proud of his town and would never admit it to be part of Hove let
>> alone prefer it to be thought that way.
> Well, there you go. I hardly even noticed that Hove and Portslade were
> merged in 1974. The Porstladian might not want to be part of Hove.
> Conversely, more genteel Hove would hardly admit Portslade to be the same
> place.
Back in 1974, the fear was that Portslade's interests would be ignored
when incorporated into a single borough with the larger Hove, and that
indeed "genteel" Hove might find Portslade, once under its control,
a convenient dumping ground for all its problems. In those days too,
Portslade UDC tended to be Labour controlled, while Hove MB, of course,
was True Blue Tory. Funnily enough, Hove BC itself went red in its
final election before merger with Brighton, and Hove Parliamentary
constituency elected a Labour MP. This was partly because much of,
on the surface "genteel", Hove was actually multi-occupied slums,
and Hove too had its council estates only they weren't such a big
proportion of the housing as Portslade's.
So in my mind the battle between Portslade and Hove was really about the
differences between the snobbish elite who make up the public image
of what southern England is like, "Hove, Actually" people, and good
honest real Sussex folk who won't be druv.
Matthew Huntbach
Renia
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008, Renia wrote:
>> Brian Sharrock wrote:
>
>>> It was merged into 'Brighton & Hove (Actuallly).
>>> When I first moved into the general area, I overheard a conversation
>>> between two men; -
>>> A "I didn't realise you lived in Portslade"
>>> B "I prefer the tem British West Hove!"
>
>> Do you remember when Portslade Station was called West Hove Station
>> (because it was actually in Hove!)
>
> No, it was never called "West Hove", it was until recently called
> "Portslade and West Hove" however.
As is this photo:
http://regencysociety-jamesgray.com/volume38/source/jg_38_010.htm
It is in Hove, not Portslade, in the old parish of Aldrington, sometimes
known as West Hove. I'm sure I remember it as West Hove station in the 60s.
Here is a photo taken when it was called West Brighton:
http://regencysociety-jamesgray.com/volume38/source/jg_38_015.htm
>
>> As to actually, whenever I went abroad and people asked where I was
>> from, I'd say "Brighton. Well, Hove, actually". Everyone else must
>> have said the same thing, because no one's heard of Hove but many
>> people know of Brighton. Then, of course, ACTUALLY was stamped all
>> through the rock.
>
> As a true Portsladian, acknowledging that people outside tend not to have
> heard of our town, I'd say "Brighton".
Ditto, except when after I moved from Portslade to Hove.
Renia
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008, Renia wrote:
> This was partly because much of,
> on the surface "genteel", Hove was actually multi-occupied slums,
I wouldn't describe "much of" Hove as multi-occupied slums. Some, yes,
but "much of" - no.
In the 60s and early 70s, Poet's Corner might be described so, but now
the area has been slowly "gentrified". (Sackville Road, I might add, has
been absolutely ruined by the forest of wheelie-bins). You may be
thinking of the area around Ellen Street as old slums, much of which was
demolished and replaced with industrial and office buildings, though
even one of those has been turned into housing. Yes, the area straddling
the south of the railways (between Sackville Road and Olive Road) isn't
luxurious but could hardly be described as slums. It gives cheap housing
for starter families or 2nd-timers. Perhaps you are thinking of the
Knoll Estate north of the Old Shoreham Road as slums? Council housing,
yes. Slums, I don't think so, although some of the people living there
haven't been the brightest lights on the tree and lack self-respect,
according to my milkman a few years ago!
Where are these Hove slums you are thinking of?
> and Hove too had its council estates only they weren't such a big
> proportion of the housing as Portslade's.
>
> So in my mind the battle between Portslade and Hove was really about the
> differences between the snobbish elite who make up the public image
> of what southern England is like, "Hove, Actually" people, and good
> honest real Sussex folk who won't be druv.
Having lived in upper Portslade and Hove, from both places, Portslade-
by-Sea is seen as more industrial than residential, because of the
harbour and the commercial nature of the areas towards the shore end of
Boundary/Station Road. The very name, Boundary Road, defines the
territory, not snobbery. (You should have lived in Hove in the early 60s
when, what my Dad used to call "The Hove Bitches", wandered around in
their furs with their little doggies in baskets with bows in their hair.
The doggies, not the Bitches.)
On the other hand, all of this makes Brighton a vibrant and varied city
and one of the very few with major rail lines, an airport AND a harbour
under its authority.
Matthew Huntbach
> Matthew Huntbach wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008, Renia wrote:
>> This was partly because much of,
>> on the surface "genteel", Hove was actually multi-occupied slums,
> I wouldn't describe "much of" Hove as multi-occupied slums. Some, yes, but
> "much of" - no.
>
> In the 60s and early 70s, Poet's Corner might be described so, but now the
> area has been slowly "gentrified". (Sackville Road, I might add, has been
> absolutely ruined by the forest of wheelie-bins). You may be thinking of the
> area around Ellen Street as old slums, much of which was demolished and
> replaced with industrial and office buildings, though even one of those has
> been turned into housing. Yes, the area straddling the south of the railways
> (between Sackville Road and Olive Road) isn't luxurious but could hardly be
> described as slums. It gives cheap housing for starter families or
> 2nd-timers. Perhaps you are thinking of the Knoll Estate north of the Old
> Shoreham Road as slums? Council housing, yes. Slums, I don't think so,
> although some of the people living there haven't been the brightest lights
> on the tree and lack self-respect, according to my milkman a few years ago!
>
> Where are these Hove slums you are thinking of?
At one time Hove actually did have the highest "slum rate" in the country,
though it depends on how you determine "slum". I'm certainly not
thinking of the Knoll estate, since council housing of that era was
modest but generally very well built. I think what actually did it was all
those big Victorian houses in central Hove which had been converted into
flats, sometimes quite badly. This illustrates just the sort of thing
of at first glance imposing and "genteel" on closer look rather sad and
run-down, which I think typifies Hove.
>> and Hove too had its council estates only they weren't such a big
>> proportion of the housing as Portslade's.
>>
>> So in my mind the battle between Portslade and Hove was really about the
>> differences between the snobbish elite who make up the public image
>> of what southern England is like, "Hove, Actually" people, and good
>> honest real Sussex folk who won't be druv.
> Having lived in upper Portslade and Hove, from both places, Portslade-
> by-Sea is seen as more industrial than residential, because of the harbour
> and the commercial nature of the areas towards the shore end of
> Boundary/Station Road. The very name, Boundary Road, defines the territory,
> not snobbery. (You should have lived in Hove in the early 60s when, what my
> Dad used to call "The Hove Bitches", wandered around in their furs with
> their little doggies in baskets with bows in their hair. The doggies, not
> the Bitches.)
I was growing up in Portslade at the time. The thing about Portslade was
that since the entire upper two thirds of it was only reached by roads
you'd only have to take if you needed to get there, and it's essentially built
into a valley you can't see into from outside, many people just assume
the southern bit you call "Portslade-by-Sea" is all there is of Portslade,
because that's all anyone would see if they had no reason to go there
except to pass through it. The by-pass, of course, has changed that.
I suspect to many people your "Hove Bitches" image is still what they think
the place is like, whereas it has changed enormously since those days.
> On the other hand, all of this makes Brighton a vibrant and varied city and
> one of the very few with major rail lines, an airport AND a harbour under
> its authority.
Hah, there you go, you said "Brighton" and you mean "Brighton and Hove" or
maybe you also include Adur District (since the airport and part of the
harbour is actually in that district rather than Brighton&Hove).
I agree it's a very vibrant and varied place, and the important thing
many people don't realise when I tell them it's where I came from is that
the seaside resort bit isn't all there is to it, in fact that's rather
a minor aspect of it. But sometimes these days it seems just a bit too
trendy and up itself.
Matthew Huntbach
Renia
I shouldn't have used the word "authority"! Perhaps "in its environs",
instead. These days, though, Gatport Airwick is "practically" in
Brighton, as is Newhaven Harbour. So, 2 airports, 2 harbours, more than
2 stations, one hour from London. It has it all. So why do I live in
Greece, now?
>
> I agree it's a very vibrant and varied place, and the important thing
> many people don't realise when I tell them it's where I came from is that
> the seaside resort bit isn't all there is to it, in fact that's rather
> a minor aspect of it. But sometimes these days it seems just a bit too
> trendy and up itself.
That's what I've noticed in recent trips. That, and the lack of Brits.
Still, I can talk, as an foreigner in another land myself.
a.spencer3
> These days, though, Gatport Airwick is "practically" in
> Brighton, as is Newhaven Harbour. So, 2 airports, 2 harbours, more than
> 2 stations, one hour from London. It has it all. So why do I live in
> Greece, now?
>
I hardly think Gatwick, nor Newhaven, consider themselves to be in Brighton,
or even its environs!
Gatwick's half-way home from Brighton for me!
Surreyman
Renia
> "Renia" <re...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
> news:fstih2$3aj$1...@mouse.otenet.gr...
>> These days, though, Gatport Airwick is "practically" in
>> Brighton, as is Newhaven Harbour. So, 2 airports, 2 harbours, more than
>> 2 stations, one hour from London. It has it all. So why do I live in
>> Greece, now?
>>
>
> I hardly think Gatwick, nor Newhaven, consider themselves to be in Brighton,
> or even its environs!
I know, but they're both so near, and Btn's the biggest town for miles,
they're ALMOST on the doorstep! (I know it's pushing it a bit!)
> Gatwick's half-way home from Brighton for me!
I've always loved Gatters, though it's getting a bit boring now I'm
flying to or from it every few weeks. Used to be so exciting when I was
young. Took all my boyfriends there and pretended I was off somewhere!
a.spencer3
But 3 times the cab fare than from Heathrow for me!
Surreyman
Brian Sharrock
> Brian Sharrock wrote:
>
>>
>> It was merged into 'Brighton & Hove (Actuallly).
>> When I first moved into the general area, I overheard a conversation
>> between two men; -
>> A "I didn't realise you lived in Portslade"
>> B "I prefer the tem British West Hove!"
>
> Do you remember when Portslade Station was called West Hove Station
> (because it was actually in Hove!)
Yep; it's an irritating piece of bureaucracy that in England political
boundaries , wards, Districts, Counties, Continuencies etc. etc. follow the
Centre-of-the-Road -OS have a purchaseable data base named IIRC COLAS
(Centre ... Line ....) - Hove and Portslade carried this to extremes by
calling the road by two seperate names ; = 'Station Road' for the eastern
(Hove) side and 'Boundary Road' for the western (Portslade) side. The
railway station that serves Portslade has a platform which is perhaps two
fathoms (smn context) away deom Portslade and is entirely within (West)
Hove.
Obviously rents in the Portsslade area are a fraction of the Brighton area;
since the absorbtion of Portslade into 'Brighton & Hove' it's remarkable how
many 'posh' car-sellers have moved into Victoria Road, Portlade (and nearby)
. One can find Porsche, Lexus, Audi, BMW, et. al. all styling themselves
$Posh-Car-NAme _Brighton_. :)
>
> As to actually, whenever I went abroad and people asked where I was from,
> I'd say "Brighton. Well, Hove, actually". Everyone else must have said the
> same thing, because no one's heard of Hove but many people know of
> Brighton. Then, of course, ACTUALLY was stamped all through the rock.
>
As I heard it; most folk when asked 'Where do you live?' would respomd with
somethng along the lines of "On the South Coast ... " to which the
questioner would say 'Brighton?" and be met with the retort 'No! Hove
...actually!"
> What neck of the woods are you in?
BN42 4**
--
Brian
Renia
> "Renia" <re...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
>> What neck of the woods are you in?
>
> BN42 4**
Used to be BN41 myself till we moved to BN3 some 25 years ago.
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"Renia" <re...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
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