The 1421 Theory - 'cuts'
a425couple
And certainly naval.
The 1421 Theory is that a Chinese explorer sailed much
of the world and the Americas around years 1405 to 1433.
I heard a bit about it, read, found some real interesting
'cut down' quotes. Perhaps someone will enjoy them.
(At least to me they seem to fit so many internet posters
view of the world??!)
"It is clear, however, that textbooks on that history need not be rewritten.
The reasoning of 1421 is inexorably circular, its evidence spurious, its
research derisory, its borrowings unacknowledged, its citations slipshod,
and its assertions preposterous. Still, it may have some pedagogical value
in world history courses. Assigning selections from the book to
high-schoolers and undergraduates, it might serve as an outstanding example
of how not to (re)write world history."
"This is not just a story about ones man's wild theory. It is a parable of
modern popular culture, a tale about intellectual chutzpah and about a
publishing industry that knows how to extract profit from a public which
wants to thumb its nose at the dry though documented history taught at
school."
"I shall pass by the more asinine claims about sub-Arctic and Antarctic
circumnavigation, dependent as they are on a litany of absurd error. Though
I shall note in passing that the consensus as to the unsurpassed brilliance
of Ming maritime achievements is connected, as are the battier claims for
the year 1421----"
"Nowhere is such a transparent mythography more blatantly peddled than in
the remarkable, fictional fantasizing of the British writer - he cannot be
called an historian - Gavin Menzies.
But Menzies is merely the extremist - one might hazard 'fundamentalist' -
endpoint"
Jack, if you have not already read it, I think you'ed be interested in
paper:
Fathoming the Unfathomable: Even Leviathans have Limits
Dr. Stephen Davies Museum Director, Hong Kong Maritime Museum
The whole thing, could almost lead to a conclusion, that just
because one has commanded a RN submarine - it does not mean ----.
But, I suppose nowdays, going from bankrupcy, into good royalities
and speaking engagements, is worth any price for some.
La N
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IpWdnUkeiK9bU3ja...@comcast.com...
This reminds me, couple of years ago I read a very compelling book by a
Canadian author, Paul Chiasson, _ The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
Chinese Settled When They Discovered America_ that many scientific types
have attempted to debunk since.
Here is a synopsis from amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0312362056/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books
Book Description
In 2003, Paul Chiasson climbed a mountain he never explored on the island
where he grew up. Cape Breton, one of the oldest points of exploration in
the Americas, is littered with remnants of old settlements. The road he
found that day was unique. Consistently wide and formerly bordered with
stone walls, the road had been a major undertaking. For the next two years,
he surveyed the history of Europeans in North America, and came to a
stunning conclusion: The ruins he came upon did not belong to the
Portuguese, French, or English and pre-dated John Cabot's "discovery" of the
island in 1497. With aerial and site photographs, maps, drawings and his
expertise in the history of architecture, Chiasson pieces together clues to
one of the world's great mysteries. The Island of Seven Cities reveals the
existence of a large Chinese colony that thrived on Canadian shores well
before the European Age of Discovery and unveils the first tangible proof
that the Chinese were in the New World before Columbus.
About the Author
PAUL CHIASSON, a Yale-educated architect with a specialty in the history and
theory of religious architechture has taught at Yale, the Catholic
University of America in Washington, D.C. and the University of Toronto. He
lives in Toronto.
- nilita
Ray O'Hara
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3okFj.120020$w57.67579@edtnps90...
they were probably egyptian. barry fell proved the micmac indians who lived
in along the coast from maine north knew heiroglyphics ;)
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/kriegsmarine/raider/michel/micheln5.jpg
a425couple
> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > Well, Medieval Times anyway.
> > And certainly naval.
> > The 1421 Theory is that a Chinese explorer sailed much
> > of the world and the Americas around years 1405 to 1433.
> > "It is clear, however, that textbooks on that history need not be
> > rewritten."
be
> > called an historian - Gavin Menzies.
>
> Canadian author, Paul Chiasson, _ The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
> Chinese Settled When They Discovered America_ that many scientific types
> have attempted to debunk since.
Yes, those two have several connections.
"In the course of vetting his ideas with his family and attempting to lure
the interest of publishers, Chiasson makes the acquaintance of one of the
leading advocates of the burgeoning theory of Chinese exploration, Gavin
Menzies--Chiasson's reticence toward him reminiscent of primatologist Dianne
Fossey's relationship with archeologist Lewis Leakey. The partnership bears
fruit however, with Menzies' observation that the find could be larger than
Chiasson's sight indicates; implying a scope that extends beyond tiny Cape
Dauphin, and throughout what was once known as the Island of Seven Cities.
Chiasson's book is an affirmation of the amateur spirit and ethic that has
sparked---"
La N
Dian Fossey was another one of my favourite reads ("Gorillas in the Mist").
Anyway, it could be that Chinese discovered America. However, there are all
sorts of Menzies-debunking sites. Who knows.
- nilita
Ray O'Hara
yeah the chinese discovered everywhere but somehow missed europe.
Jack Linthicum
I went to college with Crellin and Linda Pauling at a time when their
father was into Vitamin C. When he came to Reed no one asked him about
Vitamin C they wanted to hear about either his peace movement or his
work in chemistry and physics. No Nobels for health.
Arved Sandstrom
news:25GdnUmiYJ1Ld3ja...@rcn.net...[ SNIP ]
>> Anyway, it could be that Chinese discovered America. However, there are
> all
>> sorts of Menzies-debunking sites. Who knows.
>>
>> - nilita
>
> yeah the chinese discovered everywhere but somehow missed europe.
To be fair, the Chinese already knew about Europe, depending on your time
frame. And vice versa. At least as far back as the Romans.
AHS
Jack Linthicum
They want me to send an email for paper I have no idea how long it is.
I can, and have, downloaded papers of about 100 pages directly from
the net. I do not want something I do not think will pass my email
security system. Is there an online direct source for this?
Note the 1421exposed site has one reference that even questions
Menzies' ability to drive a ship. And his education.
5. GM claims practical experience of wind conditions and ocean
currents from having actually 'followed in the wake' of the great
captains, apparently in single passages aboard a cruiser and in a
submarine. One was across the Indian Ocean in 1959 when a sub-
lieutenant in the Supply and Secretariat Branch aboard HMS
Newfoundland, (Navy List June 1959) and the other across the Pacific
in 1969 in HMS Rorqual, in his first and only command after which he
was retired as a Lieutenant Commander.
Indeed, Menzies accuses historians of negligence and Chinese scholars
of ignorance of their own history, even though he has no advanced
education having joined the Royal Navy when 15 years old.
http://www.1421exposed.com/html/library_of_congress.html
a425couple
> "Ray O'Hara" <mary.p...@rcn.com> wrote ...
> > "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote
> [ SNIP ]
> >> Anyway, it could be that Chinese discovered America. However,
> >> there are all sorts of Menzies-debunking sites. Who knows.
> >
>
> To be fair, the Chinese already knew about Europe, depending on your
> time frame. And vice versa. At least as far back as the Romans.
Kind'a yes to all above.
As I took it, Ray was alluding to one of the major
'de-bunking' thoughts that I understand is:
China knew of Europe, Europe knew of China,
they both had an interest in trade, they were both
creating documents/records.
So, --- if they had done all this sailing and exploring,
why not sail there?
(i.e. why sail to Antartica for nothing, when Europe profitable?)
a425couple
> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The 1421 Theory is that a Chinese explorer sailed much
> > of the world and the Americas around years 1405 to 1433.
in
> > the remarkable, fictional fantasizing of the British writer - he cannot
be
> > called an historian - Gavin Menzies.
> >
> > paper:
> > Fathoming the Unfathomable: Even Leviathans have Limits
> > Dr. Stephen Davies Museum Director, Hong Kong Maritime Museum
>
> I can, and have, downloaded papers of about 100 pages directly from
> the net. I do not want something I do not think will pass my email
> security system. Is there an online direct source for this?
Uhhhh??
I was browsing around, finding plenty of interest (to me),
but not taking much care to record how I got to each spot,
I read over a page from the "Davies paper"
(at core - wooden ships of size claimed could not have
been sea-going, too large for stresses -- too weak).
So, , my best guess is, that if you already checked via
search engine, on my cut and paste quote:
> > Fathoming the Unfathomable: Even Leviathans have Limits
> > Dr. Stephen Davies Museum Director, Hong Kong Maritime Museum
then, you have probably already, found everything I saw.
> Note the 1421exposed site has one reference that even questions
> Menzies' ability to drive a ship.
Yeah. Isn't it horrible how people can negatively judge!!
(when you are Captain of a RN sub, and you collide with
and damage a USN ship tied up at a pier - sheesh,
critics can be so unforgiving!!!
((ala - "but they only caught me once in bed with a sheep")) )
> Note the 1421exposed site has one reference that even questions
> Menzies' -- his education.
Yes again. The pointy headed intelectuals with their
alphebet soup credentials (PHD like) can be so snobby
and cliquish toward outsiders.
(peer review noting that a 'foundation document' proporting
to be a 1448AD map, uses writting style only 50 years old,
and includes like word "America" - when Vespuci after that!
((Good God Man, if you want to create a forgery, you really
should do better than using crayons on your kid's
school memeographed paper!!)) )
> GM claims practical experience --
> in 1969 in HMS Rorqual, in his first and only command after
> which he was retired as a Lieutenant Commander.
On the one hand - at least as Lt Cmdr, he did have a command.
Any knowledge - was that retirement at retirement pay?
(or - just politely told to go away, "we will be sure to call
you if we have a need of your special talents."
Yeah cynical me this morning.
Recalling a "hiring board" where applicant called himself
"retired from xxxx", leading toward one set of assumptions,
deeper questioning by me, , folded that all up.)
> Indeed, Menzies accuses historians of negligence and Chinese scholars
> of ignorance of their own history, even though he has no advanced
> education having joined the Royal Navy when 15 years old.
> http://www.1421exposed.com/html/library_of_congress.html
Reminding me of, I have a passion I've been involved with
for 40 years, one does learn a fair hunk of esoteric stuff,
that casual spectators just have no clue about, but they
regularly throw out their opinions and conclusions.
Should I even respond? Where to start? Is it worth it?
Basic fact, "often the old timers who have the credentials
and experience in a field, DO really understand subject."
We always need to be open to new ideas, but do
not assume that the old ideas are baseless.
erilar
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Well, Medieval Times anyway.
> And certainly naval.
> The 1421 Theory is that a Chinese explorer sailed much
> of the world and the Americas around years 1405 to 1433.
It's really hard to believe anyone would buy that, but the (vomit) Da
Vinci Code(vomit) was a best seller.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
Jack Linthicum
> In article <IpWdnUkeiK9bU3janZ2dnUVZ_uevn...@comcast.com>,
>
> "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Well, Medieval Times anyway.
> > And certainly naval.
> > The 1421 Theory is that a Chinese explorer sailed much
> > of the world and the Americas around years 1405 to 1433.
>
> It's really hard to believe anyone would buy that, but the (vomit) Da
> Vinci Code(vomit) was a best seller.
>
> --
> Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
>
> You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
> that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
>
> Erilar's Cave Annex:http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
There is character on another newsgroup who has a 400 post argument
going that humans painted pictures before they learned to speak. And
that the particular ethnic group he claims has been speaking the same
language with the same vocabulary for 9,000 years. It hasn't been
printed but it probably would have an audience or a viewiance.
Jack Linthicum
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote
My biggest problem, when I was looking for work, was getting past the
damn personnel people. "Why, that's more than I make", "What do these
clearances you have had let you do?", "I have never heard of 'special'
clearances, I have a Secret one myself"
La N
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:f75ed57c-5252-4b28...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
I look forward to the day (retirement) when I no longer have to go through
criminal record checks ...;p
- nilita (*clean*, I swear! :)
Andrew Swallow
[snip]
>
> In 2003, Paul Chiasson climbed a mountain he never explored on the island
> where he grew up. Cape Breton, one of the oldest points of exploration in
> the Americas, is littered with remnants of old settlements. The road he
> found that day was unique. Consistently wide and formerly bordered with
> stone walls, the road had been a major undertaking. For the next two years,
> he surveyed the history of Europeans in North America, and came to a
> stunning conclusion: The ruins he came upon did not belong to the
> Portuguese, French, or English and pre-dated John Cabot's "discovery" of the
> island in 1497. With aerial and site photographs, maps, drawings and his
> expertise in the history of architecture, Chiasson pieces together clues to
> one of the world's great mysteries. The Island of Seven Cities reveals the
> existence of a large Chinese colony that thrived on Canadian shores well
> before the European Age of Discovery and unveils the first tangible proof
> that the Chinese were in the New World before Columbus.
Any one can build a road, you just need sufficient manpower. However
architectural styles change depending on the builder's civilisation.
Examine the foundations of the road. Road foundations tend to consist
of wooden layers to give drainage, big stones, small stone, glue or
cement and a hard wearing surface layer. Plenty of room for each
empire to invent their own rules. Are these foundations similar to
those in China at the time?
Andrew Swallow
La N
"Andrew Swallow" <am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:FOmdndjCLoZMD3va...@bt.com...
Debunking archaeologists followed up on this and said that what Chaisson
thought were rudimentary roads and structures were actually firebreaks c.
1953.
Anyway, here is a debunking website by a forestry engineer, including aerial
photos:
http://www.1421exposed.com/html/exposed.html
- nilita
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:f75ed57c-5252-4b28...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
:>
:> My biggest problem, when I was looking for work, was getting past the
:> damn personnel people. "Why, that's more than I make", "What do these
:> clearances you have had let you do?", "I have never heard of 'special'
:> clearances, I have a Secret one myself"
:
One has to wonder what sort of half-wits Jack was interviewing with. I
don't know any personnel people who expect to be making more than the
people they're hiring. I'm also not aware of anyone listing past
clearances on resumes, as that seems just a bit, well, nuts.
:
:I look forward to the day (retirement) when I no longer have to go through
:criminal record checks ...;p
:
Why? You're afraid they're going to find something?
--
"The noir hero is a knight in blood-caked armor. He's dirty and
he does his best to deny that he's a hero the whole time."
-- Frank Miller
Andrew Swallow
> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :
> :"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> :news:f75ed57c-5252-4b28...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> :>
> :> My biggest problem, when I was looking for work, was getting past the
> :> damn personnel people. "Why, that's more than I make", "What do these
> :> clearances you have had let you do?", "I have never heard of 'special'
> :> clearances, I have a Secret one myself"
> :>
> :
>
> One has to wonder what sort of half-wits Jack was interviewing with. I
> don't know any personnel people who expect to be making more than the
> people they're hiring. I'm also not aware of anyone listing past
> clearances on resumes, as that seems just a bit, well, nuts.
In the UK recruitment firms consider security clearances a qualification.
If you do not have the required degree they go on to the next resume.
If you do not have the required security clearance they go on to the
next resume. So in Britain you security clearance goes on the first
page of your CV.
Note: UK defence firms will get security clearances for permanent
job applicants but not for contractor.
This is a quote from a recruitment email I received a few days ago.
"
Hi there,
I have an excellent opportunity based with a company in Northwest as a
hardware design engineer. The company is an aerospace and defence
company so require someone who is sc cleared or a british national.
The successful candidate will be an experience design engineer, who
graduated and developed their career in digital and analogue design
principles with a strong background in aerospace.
The skills my client is looking for someone who has knowledge of
designing PCB's for ruggedised and extreme environments. Other skills my
client is looking for are thing such as DOORS, DO254/DO178 standards
and processes and finally strong leadership skills.
If you feel you have the above please contact me asap to discuss the job
in more detail.
SALARY: £30-35k Depending on experience
Please send an up-to-date CV asap to be considered for interview.
"
Andrew Swallow
Jack Linthicum
> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ::"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
IDA for one. I later worked with two people who were there and they
had little good to say about the guy I was interviewed by.
J A
> > :
> > :"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > :news:f75ed57c-5252-4b28...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> > :>
> > :> My biggest problem, when I was looking for work, was getting past the
> > :> damn personnel people. "Why, that's more than I make", "What do these
> > :> clearances you have had let you do?", "I have never heard of 'special'
> > :> clearances, I have a Secret one myself"
> > :>
> > :
>
> > One has to wonder what sort of half-wits Jack was interviewing with. I
> > don't know any personnel people who expect to be making more than the
> > people they're hiring. I'm also not aware of anyone listing past
> > clearances on resumes, as that seems just a bit, well, nuts.
>
> [snip]
>
> In the UK recruitment firms consider security clearances a qualification.
Same in the US. And having a clearance lapse while someone is between
jobs can be a problem.
> If you do not have the required degree they go on to the next resume.
> If you do not have the required security clearance they go on to the
> next resume. So in Britain you security clearance goes on the first
> page of your CV.
> Note: UK defence firms will get security clearances for permanent
> job applicants but not for contractor.
>
> This is a quote from a recruitment email I received a few days ago.
>
> "
> Hi there,
>
> I have an excellent opportunity based with a company in Northwest as a
> hardware design engineer. The company is an aerospace and defence
> company so require someone who is sc cleared or a british national.
>
> The successful candidate will be an experience design engineer, who
> graduated and developed their career in digital and analogue design
> principles with a strong background in aerospace.
>
> The skills my client is looking for someone who has knowledge of
> designing PCB's for ruggedised and extreme environments. Other skills my
> client is looking for are thing such as DOORS, DO254/DO178 standards
> and processes and finally strong leadership skills.
>
> If you feel you have the above please contact me asap to discuss the job
> in more detail.
>
> SALARY: £30-35k Depending on experience
>
> Please send an up-to-date CV asap to be considered for interview.
> "
>
> Andrew Swallow- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jack Linthicum
Yes, I have had people call me when I was still working at the Agency
asking me to intervene with the guy who fired them. The sole object
was to get their clearances back. When I left CIA I just stated that
I had held TS and above clearances, assuming the company looking for
someone with same would know what I meant. Unfortunately, the
personnel goofs didn't.
Ironically, if you will, I got my next job at the swimming pool where
I lived. I asked the usual suspects if anyone knew of job openings.
One guy said, yes, there was a guy who just died, and I eventually got
that job slot.
Brian Sharrock
You got that e-Mail too ?
--
Brian
am...@hotmail.com
> "Arved Sandstrom" <asandst...@accesswave.ca> wrote .
>
> > "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote ...
> > > "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > [ SNIP ]
> > >> Anyway, it could be that Chinese discovered America. However,
> > >> there are all sorts of Menzies-debunking sites. Who knows.
>
> > > yeah the chinese discovered everywhere but somehow missed europe.
>
> > To be fair, the Chinese already knew about Europe, depending on your
> > time frame. And vice versa. At least as far back as the Romans.
>
> Kind'a yes to all above.
> As I took it, Ray was alluding to one of the major
> 'de-bunking' thoughts that I understand is:
> China knew of Europe, Europe knew of China,
> they both had an interest in trade, they were both
> creating documents/records.
> So, --- if they had done all this sailing and exploring,
> why not sail there?
> (i.e. why sail to Antartica for nothing, when Europe profitable?)
The Medieval Chinese did not 'sail' to Europe and the Europeans did
not 'sail' to China: most of the travel had been done overland.
am...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> On Mar 23, 12:56 pm, erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <IpWdnUkeiK9bU3janZ2dnUVZ_uevn...@comcast.com>,
>
> > "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Well, Medieval Times anyway.
> > > And certainly naval.
> > > The 1421 Theory is that a Chinese explorer sailed much
> > > of the world and the Americas around years 1405 to 1433.
>
> > It's really hard to believe anyone would buy that, but the (vomit) Da
> > Vinci Code(vomit) was a best seller.
99% of the readers have close to zero knowledge of the relevant
history and would not bother with looking for the facts.
In this sense 'Da Vinci Code' is not too much different from
'Braveheart', '300' (can anybody explain to me since when the ancient
Persians became negroids and why would they wear an extensive
piercing? why the Spartans, instead of being probably the most heavily
armoured infantry in history are dressed a la Conan Barbarian, with
the swords that do not belong to any age and place on a planet Earth?
etc.).
>
> > Erilar's Cave Annex:http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
>
> There is character on another newsgroup who has a 400 post argument
> going that humans painted pictures before they learned to speak.
Looking at some of the modern graffitties and listening to the sounds
made by some actors, musicians, etc. during the interview, I would not
be a little bit surprised (providing author was talking about a
COHERENT speech). :-)
> And
> that the particular ethnic group he claims has been speaking the same
> language with the same vocabulary for 9,000 years.
Well, at least some of the celebrities are making tha same sounds as
the pre-historic people in "History of the World" so maybe they do
belong to this ethnic group. :-)
> It hasn't been
> printed but it probably would have an audience or a viewiance.- Hide quoted text -
Well, there ARE people (pretending to be scientists) who are still
talking about racial (or ethnic) purity of the nations located in most
unsuitable (aka, crossed by each and every massive migration) places
of Europe, so why are you surprised?
Ray O'Hara
<am...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:53915c3f-3e3f-4fbc...@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
columbus was trying to sail to asia when he hit the new world.
if a chinese fleet was blundering around the atlantic hitting places like
greenland and north america it is inconcievable they missed visiting europe.
am...@hotmail.com
> <a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
The 'map' of their voyages from http://www.1421.tv/pages/maps/voyages.htm
shows that this alledged travel happened along the Arctic coast of
what is now Russia. Which, AFAIK, would be a technical impossibility
because (unless I'm seriously mistaken) a single-season navigation
became possible only with the invention of the modern icebreakers: as
you can notice from this map, this fleet did not even land anywhere
along this route and before this the route goes along the Northern
coast of Greenland and Northern coast of Iceland (not too much in the
terms of wood for repairs, food supplies, or fresh water).
Yes, they somehow missed Europe but in a context of the rest of this
garbage it is not even surprising.
Jack Linthicum
> shows that this alledged travel happened along the Arctic coast of
> what is now Russia. Which, AFAIK, would be a technical impossibility
> because (unless I'm seriously mistaken) a single-season navigation
> became possible only with the invention of the modern icebreakers: as
> you can notice from this map, this fleet did not even land anywhere
> along this route and before this the route goes along the Northern
> coast of Greenland and Northern coast of Iceland (not too much in the
> terms of wood for repairs, food supplies, or fresh water).
>
> Yes, they somehow missed Europe but in a context of the rest of this
> garbage it is not even surprising.
Add the existence of the Little Ice Age and the complications of
navigating essentially river craft in a heavy ice situation
am...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Even without the Little Ice Age situation was totally impossible: they
would be crushed by ice either North of Greenland or in the Russian
Arctics: how would they made a trip from Greenland all the way through
the Bering Straight in a single season? There is no point on this
'map' where they could spend a winter with any serious chance for
survival (not that the rest makes any sense).
My impression is that Mendez (or whatever his name) confused Medieval
Junk with a nuclear sub.
Jack Linthicum
My idea is more that he took several maps of questionable origin and
decided they must be true because the Chinese created them. Vinland
and the Waldseemuller maps have Arctic elements that were impossible
and he just justified them by saying the Chinese sailed the paths
suggested and then strangely passed the maps made so accurately to the
Turks or whoever.
am...@hotmail.com
Well, the next logical step in this reasoning would be to suggest that
the Chinese invented the nuclear submarines and/or powerful
icebreakers: after all, they (or their admirers) claimed that they
invented almost everything else. With this 1st step being made, it
would be plausible to argue that a maintenance cost of <see above> was
prohibitive for a Medieval China and the nuclear fleet was eventually
scuttled by the budget-minding officials.
:-)
>Vinland
> and the Waldseemuller maps have Arctic elements that were impossible
> and he just justified them by saying the Chinese sailed the paths
> suggested
Personally, I always prefered the Migrating Picts or the Fried French
Templars as the source of origin. I'd suggest McWasherwomen but they
were notoriously bad on mapping. :-)
> and then strangely passed the maps made so accurately to the
> Turks or whoever.
Taking into an account that out of all possible candidates, the
Ottomans were probably the least interested in anything of the kind,
they would be the most reasonable choise if one wanted to keep these
maps secret.... :-)
TMOliver
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
>
> Add the existence of the Little Ice Age and the complications of
> navigating essentially river craft in a heavy ice situation
>
Certainly, by 1421, the earlier "Warm Spell" which had allowed Greenlanders
to grow grain and fatten livestock (and themselves) at Brattalid (sp?),
while stimulating all sorts of Norse - population growing but arable land
available not) to head off in search of green pastures across the seas (or
plump Erse girls to warm their Winter couches) were over. Even at the
height of the Thaw, it seems unlikely that (a) the entire coast of
Siberia/Russia was ice free (even in High Summer) and even if it was, it's a
hell of a row into prevailing winds in a single Summer of even an entire
year.
In any case, had the Chinese shown up in the Iceland/Faeros Gap, there would
have been a saga to record it..."Thorwald Bjarnison and the Funny-Eyed Folk"
or some such.
TMO
am...@hotmail.com
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
>
>
>
> > Add the existence of the Little Ice Age and the complications of
> > navigating essentially river craft in a heavy ice situation
>
> Certainly, by 1421, the earlier "Warm Spell" which had allowed Greenlanders
> to grow grain and fatten livestock (and themselves) at Brattalid (sp?),
> while stimulating all sorts of Norse - population growing but arable land
> available not) to head off in search of green pastures across the seas (or
> plump Erse girls to warm their Winter couches) were over. Even at the
> height of the Thaw, it seems unlikely that (a) the entire coast of
> Siberia/Russia was ice free (even in High Summer) and even if it was, it's a
> hell of a row into prevailing winds in a single Summer of even an entire
> year.
>
In a reality, the North-Eastern Passage was explored in stages in a
time-span from as early as XI century till mid-XIX and the 1st
successful navigation had been made by Nordenskiold in 1878 (and Vega
was a steamship). Of 122 convoys between 1877 and 1919 only 75
succeeded. Officially, this route was open for a commercial navigation
only in 1935.
> In any case, had the Chinese shown up in the Iceland/Faeros Gap, there would
> have been a saga to record it..."Thorwald Bjarnison and the Funny-Eyed Folk"
> or some such.
>
> TMO
:-)
Fred J. McCall
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:> :
:> :"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:> :news:f75ed57c-5252-4b28...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
:> :>
:> :> My biggest problem, when I was looking for work, was getting past the
:> :> damn personnel people. "Why, that's more than I make", "What do these
:> :> clearances you have had let you do?", "I have never heard of 'special'
:> :> clearances, I have a Secret one myself"
:> :>
:> :
:>
:> One has to wonder what sort of half-wits Jack was interviewing with. I
:> don't know any personnel people who expect to be making more than the
:> people they're hiring. I'm also not aware of anyone listing past
:> clearances on resumes, as that seems just a bit, well, nuts.
:[snip]
:
:In the UK recruitment firms consider security clearances a qualification.
:If you do not have the required degree they go on to the next resume.
:If you do not have the required security clearance they go on to the
:next resume. So in Britain you security clearance goes on the first
:page of your CV.
:
Jack doesn't live in the UK.
In the US, your clearance terminates when you leave the employ of the
organization that got it for you (since your need to know has
expired). Generally, you're not supposed to talk about specific
clearances you might hold and I can't imagine anyone listing one on a
resume unless it's for an internal transfer from one job within a
company to another within the same company.
--
You have never lived until you have almost died.
Life has a special meaning that the protected
will never know.
Tiglath
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:95rou3lsdf64rd8ro...@4ax.com...
>
> I can't imagine anyone listing one [security clearance] on a
> resume unless it's for an internal transfer from one job within a
> company to another within the same company.
>
There are many things NoGall can't imagine, yet they are common knowledge
for people with a few years of schooling.
'If applying for a job with the U.S. Government, your "Federal Resume" (and
there is a specific format they use) should include your Social Security
Number, Citizenship, Veteran's Preference or years in the military service,
past federal job experience (if any) and security clearances (or date of
your last clearance)."
http://www.rileyguide.com/citizen.html
People list their security clearance in resumes routinely in the Washington
D.C. area., where you find the most people with them.
I know, I've had to read hundreds of resumes over time.
You have to be discreet and not give every detail about the clearance, and
it's probably best to omit it altogether if you are not applying for a
government or a government contractor job, but NoGall's notion that it's
only done for internal transfers is just plain baloney.
Educating NoGall can be a full-time job, folks.
Keith Willshaw
> :
> :In the UK recruitment firms consider security clearances a qualification.
> :If you do not have the required degree they go on to the next resume.
> :If you do not have the required security clearance they go on to the
> :next resume. So in Britain you security clearance goes on the first
> :page of your CV.
> :
>
> Jack doesn't live in the UK.
>
> In the US, your clearance terminates when you leave the employ of the
> organization that got it for you (since your need to know has
> expired). Generally, you're not supposed to talk about specific
> clearances you might hold and I can't imagine anyone listing one on a
> resume unless it's for an internal transfer from one job within a
> company to another within the same company.
>
In the UK the process of security clearance, especially if it involves
positive vetting is quite long and expensive. In my case I know they
contacted previous employers, colleges etc. and the entire process took
several months during which time my access to classified information was
limited.
The knowledge that these checks have been done is a piece of information
an employer wants to know. Of course the need to know was terminated with
your job but the file on you still exists.
Keith
Jeff
> :> don't know any personnel people who expect to be making more than the
> :> people they're hiring. I'm also not aware of anyone listing past
> :> clearances on resumes, as that seems just a bit, well, nuts.
> :[snip]
> :
> :In the UK recruitment firms consider security clearances a qualification.
> :If you do not have the required degree they go on to the next resume.
> :If you do not have the required security clearance they go on to the
> :next resume. So in Britain you security clearance goes on the first
> :page of your CV.
> :
>
> Jack doesn't live in the UK.
>
> In the US, your clearance terminates when you leave the employ of the
> organization that got it for you (since your need to know has
> expired). Generally, you're not supposed to talk about specific
> clearances you might hold and I can't imagine anyone listing one on a
> resume unless it's for an internal transfer from one job within a
> company to another within the same company.
The same is true in the UK, although a current clearance with an existing
employer may possibly be transferred to a new one, but security checks are
still done.
Having worked in the UK defence industry for over 30 years and having sifted
through hundreds of CV's I have never seen one where security clearance was
mentioned in any more than a passing manner. Security clearance is not a
matter that the individual is generally involved in, other than providing
basic info. Getting clearance either transferred or done from scratch can be
a lengthy process and can be a major hiccup when employing a new person, it
can take months for things to be resolved and new starters have been known
to have limited access during this period.
Regards
Jeff
Jack Linthicum
> :> :
> :> :"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
At the time I did these interviews overhead satellite reconnaissance
was a deep secret, also SOSUS and some other still-unreleased stuff.
We had a guy at CIA who collected clearances, he got pissed when he
learned that I had not just the "need to know" clearances but the
operational and developmental clearances as well. I thought I was a
hot prospect, but the people who would know that never saw my resume
or talked to me.
The Horny Goat
<fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>:I look forward to the day (retirement) when I no longer have to go through
>:criminal record checks ...;p
>
>Why? You're afraid they're going to find something?
Because they're a PITA. (Pain in the ...)
One non-profit organization I was volunteering gave me heck because my
record check hadn't come through - it turned out the form had been
received about six weeks previously and got stuck in the bottom of
somebody's filing cabinet between two folders where it had been
misfiled. Once it was located the 'problem' was resolved in about 30
seconds.
Nothing to hide here either: my life of crime consists of a speeding
ticket and a meter violation...
La N
"The Horny Goat" <lcr...@home.ca> wrote in message
news:6p3qu319536ncf9at...@4ax.com...
Failing to do a full stop at a stop sign and 2 meter violations here .. :)
- nilita
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:95rou3lsdf64rd8ro...@4ax.com...
:
:>
:> I can't imagine anyone listing one [security clearance] on a
:> resume unless it's for an internal transfer from one job within a
:> company to another within the same company.
:>
:
:There are many things NoGall can't imagine, yet they are common knowledge
:for people with a few years of schooling.
:
:'If applying for a job with the U.S. Government, your "Federal Resume" (and
:there is a specific format they use) should include your Social Security
:Number, Citizenship, Veteran's Preference or years in the military service,
:past federal job experience (if any) and security clearances (or date of
:your last clearance)."
:
:http://www.rileyguide.com/citizen.html
:
:People list their security clearance in resumes routinely in the Washington
:D.C. area., where you find the most people with them.
:
Not really, no.
:
:I know, I've had to read hundreds of resumes over time.
:
You can't read.
:
:You have to be discreet and not give every detail about the clearance, and
:it's probably best to omit it altogether if you are not applying for a
:government or a government contractor job, but NoGall's notion that it's
:only done for internal transfers is just plain baloney.
:
:Educating NoGall can be a full-time job, folks.
:
Whereas educating Tiglet of PooPoo Corner is a hopeless endeavour.
Read the rest of your own cite, dumbass. You'll find (in the summary
at the bottom):
"# Include this information only when it is specifically requested.
# Do not list your right-to-work or security clearance on any resume
you plan to post in an online database. If you are submitting your
resume to a specific employer who requests this information, then
list it, but don't place it in databases on third-party job or
recruiting sites. Employers or recruiters who find your resume will
contact you and request this information if they like what they see
and have a need to know your status.
# Never disclose what kind of security clearance you have nor the
level of your clearance except in an interview. Just note the fact
that you have a security clearance by a simple listing: SECURITY
CLEARANCE: Yes. The details will be discussed during that
interview."
<poke>
--
"He knows nothing; and he thinks he knows everything. That points
clearly to a political career."
-- George Bernard Shaw
Tiglath
> "Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
>
> :
> :news:95rou3lsdf64rd8ro...@4ax.com...
> :
> :>
> :> I can't imagine anyone listing one [security clearance] on a
> :> resume unless it's for an internal transfer
Thanks, NoGall for a NEW opportunity to show the idiot you are.
My reference shows that you are DEAD WRONG to imagine that no one
should be
"listing one [security clearance] on a resume unless it's for an
internal transfer"
Stick to the point.
>
> Read the rest of your own cite, dumbass. You'll find (in the summary
> at the bottom):
None of this validates your point that is unimaginable to list
clearance in resumes unless it's for internal company transfers.
>
> "# Include this information only when it is specifically requested.
You fool. People usually mention their clearances in resumes only
when applying to jobs that clearly state that a clearance is
required.
THE POINT, you fucking idiot, is that they do NOT ONLY in company
internal transfers, but when applying to companies like TRW, Raytheon,
and other defense contractors, or government recruiters, as new
hires.
> # Do not list your right-to-work or security clearance on any resume
> you plan to post in an online database.
No one advocated that, fool. No rebuttal.
> If you are submitting your
> resume to a specific employer who requests this information, then
> list it,
You do get it? LIST IT. Nothing about internal transfers only, you
fool.
> # Never disclose what kind of security clearance you have nor the
> level of your clearance except in an interview. Just note the fact
> that you have a security clearance by a simple listing: SECURITY
> CLEARANCE: Yes. The details will be discussed during that
> interview."
As I said, do not reveal details of your clearance in resumes.
>
> <poke>
>
People have regrets. NoGall's is that his parents didn't name him
'Delilah.'
Tiglath
> :
> :People list their security clearance in resumes routinely in the Washington
> :D.C. area., where you find the most people with them.
> :
>
> Not really, no.
>
How someone in the backwood can possibly know that?
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 29, 12:33 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"He never bore a grudge against anyone he wronged."
-- Simone Signoret
Fred J. McCall
:
Try thinking for a change. Your contention above is that there are
more people with clearances in the Washington D.C area than everywhere
else.
I deal with people with clearances all the time. The overwhelming
majority of them are NOT in the Washington D.C. area.
Care to explain? Care to tell us just where you work again, so we can
all laugh at the idea of you reading hundreds of resumes listing
security clearances?
<poke>
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Vince
> Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
>
> :On Mar 29, 12:33 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> :
> :> :
> :> :People list their security clearance in resumes routinely in the Washington
> :> :D.C. area., where you find the most people with them.
> :> :
> :>
> :> Not really, no.
> :>
> :
> :How someone in the backwood can possibly know that?
> :
>
> Try thinking for a change. Your contention above is that there are
> more people with clearances in the Washington D.C area than everywhere
> else.
>
> I deal with people with clearances all the time. The overwhelming
> majority of them are NOT in the Washington D.C. area.
>
> Care to explain? Care to tell us just where you work again, so we can
> all laugh at the idea of you reading hundreds of resumes listing
> security clearances?
>
> <poke>
>
without regard to anything else both statements can be true
e.g you know 100 people with clearances in your neck of the woods
ergo the overwhelming majority of the people you know are not in
washington
but that can be true even if 100,000 people with clearances are in
Washington
i am routinely asked to provide information for clearances
overwhelmingly they work in the Washington area
2000 jobs requiring a security clearance can be found at
http://www.bizjournals.com/jobs/security-clearance.html?page=15&order=P_JobDate|1||P_JobTitle
a very quick random sample shows almost half are in the washington
area
for example Johns hopkins APL requires clearances for virtually its
entire staff
"Note: Security clearances are necessary for most positions. Holding
U.S. citizenship is part of the requirements for obtaining a clearance.
Please see the following link for additional information"
here is a typical job at APL
Johns Hopkins University/applied Physics Lab - Laurel, MD
JOB_TITLE: Administrative Secretary JOB_CODE: 11283 JOB_CITY: Laurel
JOB_STATE: MD JOB_COUNTRY: US POSTAL_CODE: 20723 JOB_TYPE: Air and
Missile Defense Department SALARY: Varies with
skills/education/experience EDUCATION: See Experience EXPERIENCE:
Required: High school diploma or equivalent. Minimum of 5 years
administrative work experience. Proficient proofreading and
communications skills. Ability to obtain and maintain a security clearance.
deem...@aol.com
>
> a very quick random sample shows almost half are in the washington
> area
>
> for example Johns hopkins APL requires clearances for virtually its
> entire staff
>
> "Note: Security clearances are necessary for most positions. Holding
> U.S. citizenship is part of the requirements for obtaining a clearance.
> Please see the following link for additional information"
>
> here is a typical job at APL
>
> Johns Hopkins University/applied Physics Lab - Laurel, MD
> JOB_TITLE: Administrative Secretary JOB_CODE: 11283 JOB_CITY: Laurel
> JOB_STATE: MD JOB_COUNTRY: US POSTAL_CODE: 20723 JOB_TYPE: Air and
> Missile Defense Department SALARY: Varies with
> skills/education/experience EDUCATION: See Experience EXPERIENCE:
> Required: High school diploma or equivalent. Minimum of 5 years
> administrative work experience. Proficient proofreading and
> communications skills. Ability to obtain and maintain a security clearance
True. My podunk town has thousands of people with security
clearances. I wonder what's the total number of federal security
clearances?
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 29, 7:05 pm, Vince <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote:
:> Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> > Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
:>
:> > :On Mar 29, 12:33 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> > :
:> > :> :
:> > :> :People list their security clearance in resumes routinely in the Washington
:> > :> :D.C. area., where you find the most people with them.
:> > :> :
:> > :>
:> > :> Not really, no.
:> > :>
:> > :
:> > :How someone in the backwood can possibly know that?
:> > :
:>
:> > Try thinking for a change. Your contention above is that there are
:> > more people with clearances in the Washington D.C area than everywhere
:> > else.
:>
:> > I deal with people with clearances all the time. The overwhelming
:> > majority of them are NOT in the Washington D.C. area.
:>
:> > Care to explain? Care to tell us just where you work again, so we can
:> > all laugh at the idea of you reading hundreds of resumes listing
:> > security clearances?
:>
:> > <poke>
:>
:> without regard to anything else both statements can be true
:>
:> e.g you know 100 people with clearances in your neck of the woods
:>
:
You really need to stop and think, Vinnie. I sit in an area with
hundreds of people (not 100) with clearances. It is but one of many
such areas here. I routinely work with people all over the country,
all of whom are at very large facilities housing large numbers of
people who require clearances in order to do their jobs. This
includes a fair number of military personnel who are NOT based in the
Washington area.
:
:>
:> ergo the overwhelming majority of the people you know are not in
:> washington
:>
:> but that can be true even if 100,000 people with clearances are in
:> Washington
:>
:> i am routinely asked to provide information for clearances
:>
:> overwhelmingly they work in the Washington area
:>
:> 2000 jobs requiring a security clearance can be found at
:>
:> http://www.bizjournals.com/jobs/security-clearance.html?page=15&order...1||P_JobTitle
:>
:> a very quick random sample shows almost half are in the washington
:> area
:>
:> for example Johns hopkins APL requires clearances for virtually its
:> entire staff
:>
:
I know. I've worked with some of them. They're hugely outnumbered by
many other organizations which also require clearances.
:
: True. My podunk town has thousands of people with security
:clearances.
:
So does mine. So do St Louis, Dallas, Boston, San Diego and any
number of other cities and towns.
:
:I wonder what's the total number of federal security
:clearances?
:
Very large. Who do you think builds all that classified stuff?
te...@tiglath.net
> :>
> :> a very quick random sample shows almost half are in the washington
> :> area
> :>
> :> for example Johns hopkins APL requires clearances for virtually its
> :> entire staff
> :>
> :
>
> I know. I've worked with some of them. They're hugely outnumbered by
> many other organizations which also require clearances.
>
> :
> : True. My podunk town has thousands of people with security
> :clearances.
> :
>
> So does mine. So do St Louis, Dallas, Boston, San Diego and any
> number of other cities and towns.
>
> :
> :I wonder what's the total number of federal security
> :clearances?
> :
>
> Very large. Who do you think builds all that classified stuff?
>
NoGall still doesn't get it that nowhere in the country has the
CONCENTRATION of federal workers and support companies that the D.C.
area has.
Fred is already moving the goalposts. His point referred obviously to
CIVILIAN JOBS. You don't sent a resume to join the military as
military officer in need of clearances, you rise in the ranks.
He can't think either that even if a large number of federal employees
are found outside the DC area, DC is likely to have the most jobs
requiring the highest clearances. It's only the HUB of the federal
government.
Again, no rebuttals with more than "my village has hundreds of jobs
requiring clearance." Some rebuttal.
I doubt the number of clearances per state is public information, but
here is a relevant data point:
"In Washington, where the largest number of federal employees are
concentrated,"
http://www.fedsmith.com/article/1471/
te...@tiglath.net
>
> a very quick random sample shows almost half are in the washington
> area
>
> for example Johns hopkins APL requires clearances for virtually its
> entire staff
>
> "Note: Security clearances are necessary for most positions. Holding
> U.S. citizenship is part of the requirements for obtaining a clearance.
> Please see the following link for additional information"
>
> here is a typical job at APL
>
> Johns Hopkins University/applied Physics Lab - Laurel, MD
> JOB_TITLE: Administrative Secretary JOB_CODE: 11283 JOB_CITY: Laurel
> JOB_STATE: MD JOB_COUNTRY: US POSTAL_CODE: 20723 JOB_TYPE: Air and
> Missile Defense Department SALARY: Varies with
> skills/education/experience EDUCATION: See Experience EXPERIENCE:
> Required: High school diploma or equivalent. Minimum of 5 years
> administrative work experience. Proficient proofreading and
> communications skills. Ability to obtain and maintain a security clearance.
Fred can't think his way out of a bag again.
Note that he failes to mention the area that would have more jobs than
the DC area asking for clearances. A sure sign that we are in for
some more fun.
The D.C Metropolitan area has technology corridors replete with
defense contractors. Tens if not hundreds of thousands of people work
there.
It has the Pentagon, a true city in itself, the FBI and CIA, NASA,
NSA, and the area is awash with buildings of the DoD, and the DoS.
Not to forget, the entire three branches of government.
Fred from Palokaville doesn't know that apparently.
>> <poke>
If I found NoGall floating in my pool, I'd punish my dog.
Fred J. McCall
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"Sir, you pride yourself on an ability in which any ignorant
barbarian is your equal and any jackass immeasurably your
superior."
-- John Randolph
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 29, 7:05 pm, Vince <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote:
:> Fred J. McCall wrote:
:>> <poke>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"Some people can stay longer in an hour than others can in a week."
-- William Dean Howells
te...@tiglath.net
> te...@tiglath.net wrote:
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
>
Translations: "I can't find any evidence or line or reasoning to rebut
the claim that the D.C. area has the most jobs in the country that
require security clearance."
I thought so.
NoGall forgets himself and leaves the safety of the mindless poke to
rebut my true claim and makes a fool of himself in less time than it
takes for sixty seconds to elapse in New York.
te...@tiglath.net
> te...@tiglath.net wrote:
>
> :On Mar 29, 7:05 pm, Vince <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote:
> :> Fred J. McCall wrote:
> :>> <poke>
> :
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
>
Fair Readers should have a go while NoGall is still around... It's
great fun to have a pissing contest with a bed-wetter.
Tiglath
>
> I deal with people with clearances all the time. The overwhelming
> majority of them are NOT in the Washington D.C. area.
>
On Mar 29, 6:23 pm, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
>
> :On Mar 29, 12:33 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> :
> :> :
> :> :People list their security clearance in resumes routinely in the Washington
> :> :D.C. area., where you find the most people with them.
> :> :
> :>
> :> Not really, no.
> :>
> :
> :How someone in the backwood can possibly know that?
> :
>
> Try thinking for a change. Your contention above is that there are
> more people with clearances in the Washington D.C area than everywhere
> else.
>
> I deal with people with clearances all the time. The overwhelming
> majority of them are NOT in the Washington D.C. area.
>
NoGall argues from the particular to the general without compunction
at all. Amazing
Who built this guys's inference engine?
NoGall, who lives in Tucson, Arizona and works for a defense
contractor with a branch office in Arizona deals with people with
clearances all the time, who being in Arizona are not from D.C.,
naturally.
From this fact he infers that Washington D.C. does not have the
highest number of jobs requiring security clearances.
That what happens when you debate with a digestive system on legs.
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 30, 3:27 pm, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> te...@tiglath.net wrote:
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full
of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the
clue mating dance."
-- Edward Flaherty
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 30, 3:29 pm, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> te...@tiglath.net wrote:
:>
:> :On Mar 29, 7:05 pm, Vince <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote:
:> :> Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :>> <poke>
:> :
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"He was born stupid, and greatly increased his birthright."
-- Samuel Butler
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 29, 6:23 pm, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:
:>
:> I deal with people with clearances all the time. The overwhelming
:> majority of them are NOT in the Washington D.C. area.
:>
:
:On Mar 29, 6:23 pm, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
:>
:> :On Mar 29, 12:33 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> :
:> :> :
:> :> :People list their security clearance in resumes routinely in the Washington
:> :> :D.C. area., where you find the most people with them.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Not really, no.
:> :>
:> :
:> :How someone in the backwood can possibly know that?
:> :
:>
:> Try thinking for a change. Your contention above is that there are
:> more people with clearances in the Washington D.C area than everywhere
:> else.
:>
:> I deal with people with clearances all the time. The overwhelming
:> majority of them are NOT in the Washington D.C. area.
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"Why don't you bore a hole in yourself and let the sap run out?"
-- Groucho Marx
Tiglath
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
>
"Since water is denser than air, so air with water in it would be
denser than air without water in it."
-- NoGall - Principle Engineer. June 2006
Tiglath
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
"The real original purpose [of the tank] was as 'mobile pill box'.
Hence the female tanks. Then they needed 'male' tanks to protect the
females from other thanks."
-- Fred J. McCall (a.k.a. NoGall) - December 1, 2005
Tiglath
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
"The speed of sound in moist air is (slightly) higher than the speed
of
sound in dry air"
"Hint: Sound velocity goes up proportional to density."
-- NoGall - July 2006
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 31, 1:51 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:
:
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"Don't look now, but there's one too many in this room and I think
it's you."
-- Groucho Marx
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 31, 1:52 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go."
-- Oscar Wilde
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 31, 2:05 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"He is the same old sausage, fizzing and sputtering in his own
grease."
-- Henry James
te...@tiglath.net
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
>
"[mortars] They're carried by heavy weapons teams, not infantry
teams."
NoGall - December 2005
te...@tiglath.net
"The real original purpose [of the tank] was as 'mobile pill box'.
te...@tiglath.net
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
"Hint: Sound velocity goes up proportional to density, so a higher
velocity of sound at 100% humidity would indicate that humid air is
denser.."
-- NoGall - Principle Engineer. June 27, 2006.
Eric Stevens
That's bullshit. Ask any infantry mortar team of the last 100 years.
Eric Stevens
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"He is so dumb he can't fart and chew gum at the same time."
-- Lyndon Baines Johnson
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
:>
:> :On Mar 31, 1:52 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> :
:> :>
:> :> <gibbering elided>
:> :>
:> :> <poke>
:> :
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:> --
:> "Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go."
:> -- Oscar Wilde
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"His speeches left the impression of an army of pompous phrases
moving over the landscape in search of an idea."
-- William McAdoo
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 31, 11:52 am, Fred J. McCall
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"An offensive exhibition of boorishness and vulgarity."
-- General McCellan
Tiglath
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1c63v35evvksrlv9s...@4ax.com...
Hear, hear.
Tiglath
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:rs63v3p985mhua2o0...@4ax.com...
> te...@tiglath.net wrote:
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
>
"It's not 'fire' [from weapons] unless it's EFFECTIVE.
-- NoGall - Dec 8
Defense Contractor Principal Engineer (God help us)
Fred J. McCall
:
It's a misquote. The Spanish Spitoon can't read.
Please list the weapons that AN INFANTRY FIRE TEAM carry. If you list
'mortar' you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Tiglath
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
>
"At frequencies below around 300Hz sound
attenuates faster in dry air. Above that,
it travels further [sic] in dry air."
-- NoGall - July 1, 2006
(The opposite is true - Tiglath)
Tiglath
-- Oscar Wilde
> :
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
>
"This is why out where you [some poster] live [desert] you can hear the
horseshoes and glasses clinking and stuff from so far away but it might be
hard to recognize music (you lose the low notes first)."
NoGall - July 2006
Tiglath
> Eric Stevens <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>
> :On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:56:15 -0700 (PDT), te...@tiglath.net wrote:
> :
> :>On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> :>
> :>>
> :>> <gibbering elided>
> :>>
> :>> <poke>
> :>>
> :>
> :>"[mortars] They're carried by heavy weapons teams, not infantry
> :>teams."
> :>
> :> NoGall - December 2005
> :
> :That's bullshit. Ask any infantry mortar team of the last 100 years.
> :
>
> It's a misquote. The Spanish Spitoon can't read.
>
I've got NoGall on the defensive, just the way I like it...
NoGall LIES through his ass-kissing lips with great facility to cover his
monumental ignorance every time I expose it.
Here is the entire paragraph from where I am quoting/paraphrasing ACCURATELY
...
Let's let the Fair Readers judge for themselves.
'An "infantry mortar platoon" is a heavy weapon platoon, you stupid
shite. Doesn't take a whole platoon to operate a mortar, you stupid
shite. The teams in that platoon are mortar teams (not infantry
teams)'
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.history.british/msg/0eba85fd78cbf832
It is clear that NoGall thinks that a plattoon with mortars is not an
infantry platoon, which is exactly my point.
NoGall flat mind space finds hierarchical thinking very hard.
He doesn't understand that a bottle of wine is still a bottle, and similarly
a infantry mortar platton is still an infantry platoon.
Eric Stevens
<fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Eric Stevens <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>
>:On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:56:15 -0700 (PDT), te...@tiglath.net wrote:
>:
>:>On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>:>
>:>>
>:>> <gibbering elided>
>:>>
>:>> <poke>
>:>>
>:>
>:>"[mortars] They're carried by heavy weapons teams, not infantry
>:>teams."
>:>
>:> NoGall - December 2005
>:
>:That's bullshit. Ask any infantry mortar team of the last 100 years.
>:
>
>It's a misquote. The Spanish Spitoon can't read.
>
>Please list the weapons that AN INFANTRY FIRE TEAM carry. If you list
>'mortar' you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Well, one of us doesn't. See
http://images.google.co.nz/images?hl=en&q=infantry+mortar&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2
or http://tinyurl.com/2pc9vg
Eric Stevens
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:rs63v3p985mhua2o0...@4ax.com...
:> te...@tiglath.net wrote:
:
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"His voice was the most obnoxious squeak I ever was tormented with."
-- Charles Lamb
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:kv63v3dpaud7r9ccl...@4ax.com...
: -- Oscar Wilde
:> :
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"The tautness of his face sours ripe grapes."
-- William Shakespeare
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:m173v3ppf8ttt1m8u...@4ax.com...
:
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"He has all the characteristics of a dog except loyalty."
-- Sam Houston
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:o983v3hthgnc7lclr...@4ax.com...
:> Eric Stevens <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
:>
:> :On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:56:15 -0700 (PDT), te...@tiglath.net wrote:
:> :
:> :>On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> :>
:> :>>
:> :>> <gibbering elided>
:> :>>
:> :>> <poke>
:> :>>
:> :>
:> :>"[mortars] They're carried by heavy weapons teams, not infantry
:> :>teams."
:> :>
:> :> NoGall - December 2005
:> :
:> :That's bullshit. Ask any infantry mortar team of the last 100 years.
:> :
:>
:> It's a misquote. The Spanish Spitoon can't read.
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"I would not want to put him in charge of snake control in Ireland."
-- Eugene McCarthy
Fred J. McCall
:On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:44:58 -0700, Fred J. McCall
:
Ok, you obviously don't know what an infantry fire team is.
Note that the guys firing mortars are a "mortar team", even in your
rhetoric.
One more time: Please list the weapons that AN INFANTRY FIRE TEAM
carry. If you list 'mortar' you don't know what the fuck you're
talking about.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
te...@tiglath.net
>
te...@tiglath.net
> On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:44:58 -0700, Fred J. McCall
>
>
>
> >Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >:On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:56:15 -0700 (PDT), te...@tiglath.net wrote:
> >:
> >:>On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >:>
> >:>>
> >:>> <gibbering elided>
> >:>>
> >:>> <poke>
> >:>>
> >:>
> >:>"[mortars] They're carried by heavy weapons teams, not infantry
> >:>teams."
> >:>
> >:> NoGall - December 2005
> >:
> >:That's bullshit. Ask any infantry mortar team of the last 100 years.
> >:
>
> >It's a misquote. The Spanish Spitoon can't read.
>
> >Please list the weapons that AN INFANTRY FIRE TEAM carry. If you list
> >'mortar' you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
>
> orhttp://tinyurl.com/2pc9vg
>
> Eric Stevens
Excellent!
Yep, there is nothing like vivid images to make NoGall swallow his
words.
It looks more like a crow meat banquet to me.
Bon appetit, NoGall... Eric skewered you good. Admirable.
NoGal is LYING through his few crooked teeth when he says that I
misrepresented his argument; he CLEARLY said that mortar platoons are
NOT infantry platoons. I quoted his paragraph verbatim and gave a
link to the entire post, for the Fair Readers to check it out if they
wish.
This is a man who is, allegedly, a principal engineer in on of our
defense contractors. it's not only his knowledge of infantry that is
abysmal, see his quotes about tanks and about "fire" (as what comes
out of firearms). He says that unless fire is effective, i.e., hits
the intended target, it's not fire.
When it comes to being under fire from his own ignorance, NoGall is no
innocent by-stander.
Fred J. McCall
:On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall
:>
:> <gibbering elided>
:>
:> <poke>
:>
:
<gibbering elided>
<poke>
--
"His ignorance is encyclopedic."
-- Abba Eban
te...@tiglath.net
> Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>
> :On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:44:58 -0700, Fred J. McCall:<fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> ::>Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>
> :>
> :>:On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:56:15 -0700 (PDT), te...@tiglath.net wrote:
> :>:
> :>:>On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> :>:>
> :>:>>
> :>:>> <gibbering elided>
> :>:>>
> :>:>> <poke>
> :>:>>
> :>:>
> :>:>"[mortars] They're carried by heavy weapons teams, not infantry
> :>:>teams."
> :>:>
> :>:> NoGall - December 2005
> :>:
> :>:That's bullshit. Ask any infantry mortar team of the last 100 years.
> :>:
> :>
> :>It's a misquote. The Spanish Spitoon can't read.
> :>
> :>Please list the weapons that AN INFANTRY FIRE TEAM carry. If you list
> :>'mortar' you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
> :
> :Well, one of us doesn't. See
> :orhttp://tinyurl.com/2pc9vg
> :
>
> Ok, you obviously don't know what an infantry fire team is.
>
> Note that the guys firing mortars are a "mortar team", even in your
> rhetoric.
>
Hilarious...
EVERY picture in Eric's link has the word INFANTRY next to the word
MORTAR. And NoGall persists in saying that mortars are not
infantry weapons.
Behold: NoGall pulling all the stops celebrating Fool's Day.
Quite a sight.
te...@tiglath.net
> "Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
>
> :
> :news:rs63v3p985mhua2o0...@4ax.com...:> te...@tiglath.net wrote:
>
> :
> :>
> :> <gibbering elided>
> :>
> :> <poke>
> :>
> :
>
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
>
Happy Fool's Day, NoGall.
Take it easy and don't hog all the foolishness, there is always
tomorrow...
te...@tiglath.net
te...@tiglath.net
> <gibbering elided>
>
> <poke>
>
"At frequencies below around 300Hz sound
attenuates faster in dry air. Above that,
it travels further [sic] in dry air."
-- NoGall - July 1, 2006
Vince
This is simply silly
an infantry fire team is half a squad , about 4 people
The fact that mortars are infantry weapons does not them on fire teams
fire teams "move" directly in combat
They carry inter alia small machine guns and grenade launchers and
radios with which to call up support form heavy weapons , such as mortars
Vince
te...@tiglath.net
It is not silly. NoGall clearly thinks that mortar teams are not
infantry teams.
It is simply wrong.
In a hierarchical organization you are a member of all the groups
above you in the tree, from less to more specific.
Therefore, infantry may comprise specialized teams like mortar teams
and fire teams but that doesn't stop either of them from being
infantry.
Hence saying that mortars are not infantry weapons or that mortar
platoons are not infantry platoons is lunacy.
Any homo sapiens sapiens is also a homo sapiens.
Obviously the point is lost on NoGall: Homo Unerectus.
Tiglath
Ray O'Hara
they are arguing about whether a needle is sharp or pointy.
>
>
> Eric Stevens
Ray O'Hara
<te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message
news:5de3c41f-759e-4cbc...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
what fred noballs is saying is that a mortor section is not a "FIRE TEAM"
which he is technically correct. a fire team is a light automatic weapon and
some riflemen. it is a platoon's manuver element. the mortor sqd and lmg
squads are the support/ base of fire elements.
anal pedantry is fred's default mode.
Ray O'Hara
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:rs63v3p985mhua2o0...@4ax.com...
> te...@tiglath.net wrote:
>
> :On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> :
> :>
> :> <gibbering elided>
> :>
> :> <poke>
> :>
> :
>
>
> <poke>
>
that wasn't funny the first 50 times you posted it.
all it says is you're an idiot with no reply.
Tiglath
That makes sense, but it is not what NoGall said at all. So it can't
be attributed to him.
A less pedantic and arrogant poster than NoGall may earn the readers'
charity and they may imagine that what the poster meant is what you
say, but that is not NoGall's case.
People like Fred understand only one language: the squeaks and
squelches of large, rusty screws rammed up their asses.
Tiglath
> "Eric Stevens" <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
>
> news:1os3v3peo6gp15q69...@4ax.com...
>
> > On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:44:58 -0700, Fred J. McCall
>
> > >Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > >:On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:56:15 -0700 (PDT), te...@tiglath.net wrote:
> > >:
> > >:>On Mar 31, 11:48 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >:>
> > >:>>
> > >:>> <gibbering elided>
> > >:>>
> > >:>> <poke>
> > >:>>
> > >:>
> > >:>"[mortars] They're carried by heavy weapons teams, not infantry
> > >:>teams."
> > >:>
> > >:> NoGall - December 2005
> > >:
> > >:That's bullshit. Ask any infantry mortar team of the last 100 years.
> > >:
>
> > >It's a misquote. The Spanish Spitoon can't read.
>
> > >Please list the weapons that AN INFANTRY FIRE TEAM carry. If you list
> > >'mortar' you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
>
> > Well, one of us doesn't. See
>
>
> > orhttp://tinyurl.com/2pc9vg
>
> they are arguing about whether a needle is sharp or pointy.
>
>
I say it's both sharp and pointy, NoGall says it's sharp but not
pointy.
Mortar teams are both heavy weapons teams and infantry teams, or even
better infantry heavy weapons teams. NoGall insists they are not
infantry teams.
Pictures won't help, but if you see NoGall's, all's clear.
>
> > Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
You are trying to win the argument by redefining the subjetct.
You are a Plonker.
Eric Stevens
Fred J. McCall
:On Tue, 01 Apr 2008 07:24:39 -0700, Fred J. McCall
:
I don't argue with idiots and I'm not trying to 'win' anything. That's
Tiny Tiglito of Turd Triangle's game, not mine.
:
:You are a Plonker.
:
Speaking of idiots and plonk...
<plonk>
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson